I just found this link to an interview with Derrick Jensen. Environmentalist, "old growth leftie", who is surprised as to what got him cancelled. Writing about blowing up dams, no-one cared but question modern queer theory you get cancelled. HT Dark Waters on Daily Blog.
It is an hour and a half and does have some good insights.
Interesting move for Jensen to be interviewed by Southern.
Jensen's A Language Older Than Words was hugely influential on my deep green politics back in the day. I hung out on one of his forums for a while, in this Salmon/blow up dams years.
Him and the Deep Greens got absolute shit for their defence of material reality and sex based rights. Tbf they were pretty rude about transwomen, but as we all eventually learn, being kind isn't a successful strategy.
you can follow the breadcrumbs from that. Jensen knows what he is doing here but many of the hard core identitarians won't get past the mention of paedophilia and queer theory 🤷♀️ The value is for the people trying to figure out what tf is going on in this whole thing.
He's talking about the origins of QT as a way of demonstrating the connections between QT and child sexual abuse. It's not that all of QT is paedophiliac, it's that the culture of QT is centred in highly valuing transgression and this undermines child safeguarding, allowing people who want child sex to be legal/tolerated to find some power.
He names Focault, Gayle Rubin, Pat Califia, Judith Butler, all people highly influential in QT. Butler is contemporary, and recently released a book. She is a very influential academic.
Most people who call themselves queer wouldn't know who most of those people are. But the reason it's such a problem now is because No Debate means no critique can be made publicly without accusations of transphobia or homophobia.
You can see the disconnect in the video. When show evidence of child sexual abuse apologia, instead of engage with the evidence and testing its robustness, the QT students are hurling accusations that in today's world are often damaging.
It's the same dynamic as why it took a 4 year independent medical system review to look at child and youth gender transition in the UK. Because the people who were raising concerns were shut down and the rest of the people who would otherwise have looked at the safeguarding issues were too scared to. People lost their jobs, marriages, careers, friends over this.
It's also finds expression in Rainbow culture. Pride was originally an adult celebration of adult homosexuality. Now it's trying to be family friendly, which means you have men exhibiting their sexual fetishes in public with children. Again, when people try to point this out, there is denial and ostracisation.
And because the progressive voices have been so successfully shut down, the debate is now terribly skewed to the right. Hence Brian Tamaki and co painting of rainbow crossings, the liberal left up in arms about that, and you and I are talking in yesterdays DR instead of there being front page posts all week about the Cass Review, Giggle v Tickle, and some dude in the North America who has just won a legal court case that will mean he can use public health services to have a neovagina created while retaining his penis. Because that's his gender identity.
That phenomena of strange bedfellows (Southern, Peterson, Tamaki) is rendered all the more stark with the lack of natural allies from the progressive "left". (The "Punching down" and pedancy around phrasing/wordgames crowd).
Jensen's reference to old growth lefty resonates, but less from a wild nature lens more from a worker/class standpoint.
“To me, the whole complaint about cancel culture is a lot of men — especially straight men — who are just pissed that they can’t say things any more, y’know?” Sykes explained, “And it’s not like you can’t say these things. You can say them, but now there’s just consequences.” Sykes continued, "That’s why I say I can’t get canceled. Only God can say: ‘All right, Wanda, that’s enough.’”
‘Two years to save the world’: UN climate chief calls for faster action and more finance [11 April 2024]
Climate Analytics CEO Bill Hare said Stiell was “listening to the science” – namely that global emissions must be halved by the end of the decade to meet the Paris climate accord's ambition of capping global temperature increases to 1.5 degrees Celsius.
“Governments are nowhere near that, and disastrously many are still supporting new fossil fuel development,” Hare said.
Reversing oil and gas ban brazen and utterly reckless [5 March 2024]
“This Government is recklessly and shamelessly pouring oil and gas on the fire of the climate crisis,” says the co-leader of the Green Party, James Shaw.
“The Prime Minister has talked about “tough choices” recently. Well, the choices they are making include reopening New Zealand waters to the fossil fuel industry instead of confronting the climate crisis with the urgency it demands.
James Shaw, telling it like it actually is – Parliament's loss
Dig this [Richard Harman, Politik, 16 Feb 2024]
“In 2040, if I [Shane Jones] have anything to do with it, there will be a flourishing mining sector employing all my nephews who are currently going to the figurative Kalgoolies of the world, and I will have served my penance for having acquiesced in the closure of oil and gas off the coast of Taranaki.”
“Global emissions must be halved by the end of the decade” – that’s 2030, Shane.
Saunders' nit-picking about investment in the safety and well being of workers and the public personifies the right's total disregard for anything other than their own bottom dollar. Fuck ém.
5,000 years of suppressing women because we embody nature and here humans are about to kill nature itself.
It's not a coincidence that transhumanism is arising at the same time as a full assault on women's rights at the same time as we all ignore impending collapse of biosphere.
The only way out is via embodiment, of ourselves and nature, and we cannot do that without women, from whom we all come.
– weka was participating in a conversation with others putting her own thoughts down;
– Drowsy M Kram was initiating one with their style of posting links to mostly other people's reckons – (which is fine, just not usually good at creating momentum);
– your comment (as it stands) with no editorial – reads as an admonishment to weka for (ironically) talking about women's right's – because Drowsy M Kram's comment is standing there all lonely without someone looking after it.
I'm pointing this out because it is Sunday morning and I'm feeling charitable and thinking perhaps you ARE completely unaware of how your comment can be read by others.
I thought RG's point was why spend time on this fringe issue when faced with the immediacy of the climate crisis. He's not wrong, apart for his idea that women's sex based rights are fringe and not intrinsically linked to the climate crisis
He will probably equivocate now about my use of the term fringe instead of addressing the substantive points, but I thought it was worth saying how I saw it.
"I thought RG's point was why spend time on this fringe issue when faced with the immediacy of the climate crisis."
Not really. "Two years to save the world" did catch my eye though. The subject of women's sex based rights does come up a lot on The Standard these days. I've long been an advocate for the position that the patriarchy and the state of the planet are intimately linked, and also for the proposal that women were/are/will be the kaitiaki taiao needed if we are to survive much longer. I also believe and profess that indigenous cultures that have maintained a close animistic connection to the living world hold the understanding of how to establish right relationships between humans and non-humans and in particular, the women from those communities and in particular, the older women there.
I've long been an advocate for the position that the patriarchy and the state of the planet are intimately linked, and also for the proposal that women were/are/will be the kaitiaki taiao needed if we are to survive much longer. I also believe and profess that indigenous cultures that have maintained a close animistic connection to the living world hold the understanding of how to establish right relationships between humans and non-humans and in particular, the women from those communities and in particular, the older women there.
Just clearing out my bookmarks, and this is good link to Alasdair Gunn from Genspect, talking about the treatment of chidren. (Link provides transcript, which I prefer to watching the video)
Thanks so much for all your work and input into the major (definitely NOT fringe) issue of maintaining and protecting women's hard fought for rights – here on TS and elsewhere. As for your patience with some commenters (RG in particular) on this subject, I certainly could not maintain my composure as you do … !!!
UPDATE – see you found him, but still want to pass on my thanks.
Um..!…the link Davis recommends speaks out against 'advocates and activists' campaigning on this issue…when there is little/no quality evidence…
And also notes that 'no professionals 'took part in this cass report..
And seemingly agrees with BMJ…that this report should be the stimulus for further research…
Have you read the BMJ piece..?
[I’ve addressed your very poorly framed points below. I have some sympathy for people trying to get up to speed with what is a complex situation. But this is a major medical scandal where multiple children have been damaged for life. I have zero tolerance for lies and propaganda. From now on, if you want to comment on the Cass report or related issues, you will have to do the following every time
use copy and pasted quotes in ” “, so we know what you are referring to
I've done little for five days but read about the Cass report, and the BMJ piece was one of the first.
Her stated ambition is to ensure that those experiencing gender dysphoria receive a high standard of care. This will be disputed, of course, by people and lobbying groups angered by her recommendations, but it is a theme running through the review.
The BMJ editor is talking about genderist/pro-trans umbrella NGOs and TRAs there.
The lack of quality evidence refers to the fact that GIDS and other clinics have been giving puberty blockers and later cross sex hormones and surgeries on kids and young people without adequate medical science to base those treatments on.
That's the scandal Phil, and it's a major part of the Cass Reviews final report. You are woefully under-informed here.
And also notes that 'no professionals 'took part in this cass report..
Bullshit. Hilary Cass is a professional. She worked with a university. The review was overseen by medical professionals.
What the BMJ is referring to is the fact that nearly all the adult gender clinics in the UK refused to share data with Cass so that she could look at the evidence for whether children treated with affirmation only were being helped existed.
Those clinics have now been told to release teh information by the government, and there is going to be a similar kind of review into the adult clinics as the child ones.
Let that sink in. Medical professionals refused to share crucial information with an independent review that was trying to see if children were being harmed by medical treatment.
Maybe you should take that up with BMj/Pete davis.?…I am just passing their words on..
And I read the admonition to 'activists and advocates' re paucity of reliable evidence to campaign on..
..to be also addressed to the antis such as yourself..
Me..?…I don't have enough evidence to have any certainty on this issue..
And it would seem that applies to pretty much anyone pontificating one way or the other…
And I was quite amused by you and veuto posting something that wasn't what you thought..and that actually tells you to taiho…and to wait for some real/credible evidence.
What is your reaction to that admonition/advice..?
the only reason you're not getting a ban right now is because I have to go out. Read the mod note and respond, you only get one chance at this.
I am telling you you are wrong about Davis' tweet and the BMJ editorial. I'm saying that as someone who has been following this debate closely for 7 years and has been reading a huge amount of analysis in the past 5 days. You simply have the completely wrong end of the stick here.
What I have understood..is that for me not to be banned here..I cannot comment on any story weka has written/is close to ..
And as a general rule of thumb…I should not interact with weka..if at all possible..
You have completely misunderstood the BMJ editorial. I’m not explaining it to you because you’re not listening. The conditions of commenting are in the original mod note. Go and sort your head out and reread it, it’s clear.
I have read and reread the BMJ & Peter Davis' X (Twitter) comment. I cannot work out how Philip Ure has read what he has into it.
Peter Davis makes a couple of comments based on the BMJ which in turn has some quotes from the Cass Report. X (Twitter) imposes character limits hence the shortened writing
This is the complete Tweet from Davis
"The Cass review: an opportunity to unite behind evidence informed care in gender medicine". Existing evidence woefully poor; cannot justify current 'over-medicalised' interventions. Professionals in the field did not cooperate with Cass
"The Cass review: an opportunity to unite behind evidence informed care in gender medicine" This is a quote from the title of the BMJ article
"Existing evidence woefully poor; cannot justify current 'over-medicalised' interventions." Davis' words presumably from reading the BMJ. The word in quotes come from the BMJ
'Professionals in the field did not cooperate with Cass' Davis' words presumably from reading the BMJ.
How anyone could read this and think that BMJ did not support the Cass review I do not know.
The BMJ picks up on a crticism of the Cass Report about setting too high a bar with research standards then states
'the reality is different: studies in gender medicine fall woefully short in terms of methodological rigour; the methodological bar for gender medicine studies was set too low, generating research findings that are therefore hard to interpret.' Thus supporting that she has been sparingly, relatively, with the links to research as there is not much that reaches the standards a researcher would expect to see.
and
Yet this inconclusive and unacceptable evidence base was used to inform influential clinical guidelines, such as those of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which themselves were cascaded into the development of subsequent guidelines internationally
and
A spiralling interventionist approach, in the context of an evidence void, amounted to overmedicalising care for vulnerable young people. A too narrow focus on gender dysphoria, says Cass, neglected other presenting features and failed to provide a holistic model of care.
and
Cass’s review is independent and listened to people with lived experience. Without doubt, the advocacy and clinical practice for medical treatment of gender dysphoria had moved ahead of the evidence—a recipe for harm.
and finally
'People who are gender non-conforming experience stigmatisation, marginalisation, and harassment in every society. They are vulnerable, particularly during childhood and adolescence. The best way to support them, however, is not with advocacy and activism based on substandard evidence. The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
"The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
Somehow, you missed the preceding sentences in that closing paragraph:
"People who are gender non-conforming experience stigmatisation, marginalisation, and harassment in every society. They are vulnerable, particularly during childhood and adolescence. The best way to support them, however, is not with advocacy and activism based on substandard evidence. "
I am someone who believes respect needs to be earned. But sometimes it is also lost.
"I have no idea what point you are trying to make, Molly, nor why you are offering your opinion to me.
Perhaps you're just bored?"
Just because I personally find you boorish, doesn't mean I am bored, or that I will ignore your comments if I consider them a misdirection.
This is a public discussion platform, and the thread is discussing a major medical scandal that is becoming harder to deny.
I comment – sometimes – because I believe there are some who seek to diminish the necessary attention and consideration on this issue – and whose efforts in that direction make it much harder to rectify and avoid further unnecessary harm.
Let that sink in. Medical professionals refused to share crucial information with an independent review that was trying to see if children were being harmed by medical treatment.
Double bad in my books Weka.
First from the Hippocratic oath that all Drs take
Ensuring patient safety is at the heart of the Hippocratic Oath: First, Do No Harm
The notion “do no harm” embodies the medical ethics principle of “non-maleficence”, that is to refrain from doing any harm first, before doing any good.
beneficence, non-maleficence, justice and respect for the patient's autonomy
I'm not a Dr but surely the harm from puberty blockers and surgical interventions is/was known. The harm should have been first and foremost in a Dr's mind per Hippocratic oath. Quite apart from the gross known harm ie puberty blockers are not able to be reversed and botched surgical redesigns of sexual organs are well known, these humans acting in an almost God-like capacity really bother me. Sexual response to orgasm can be completely lost on children/adults who have been subject to ‘trans’ ‘work’. And someone decided that this was Ok when that child was pre teen. I don't understand how parents/Drs can do this to anyone.
The second bad is that these Drs were working in the public sector/public sector adjacent and presumably had contracts or other documents plus money from the Govt. Having worked in health when we had a contracting model I know that any group who refused to supply info would
a have had their staff referred to the appropriate professional medical society they belonged to
b had any accreditations pulled from them, leading to
c pausing of funds until a & b had been had been fixed
d our high powered audit team/plus teams from the funder of the general medical services fees (the way Drs are funded) would be there before the records could be 'lost'
e pausing of further funding on an interim basis even before any referrals
Of course these take time.
It may be that the intransigence will serve the Cass Report well in that the Drs are not actually covering themselves with glory in not providing the info. Actually if you read Hannah Barnes book 'Time to Think' you will note that several of those speaking to her (ie former employees) had expressed concern about not recording and not reviewing.
not as an excuse but as context, in the US there is significant culture in medicine around avoiding legal liability by overtreating or treating along specific pathways.
In socialised medicine countries I think this still happens but more along the lines of giving the patient what they want. This is part of why antibiotics have been overprescribed despited doctors knowing the risks. It's a weird contradiction, but in the US it's tied up with the agenda of insurance companies and what they will and won't cover as well.
Add to that, I don't think we can over-estimate the degree to which ideology is a factor here. Lots of theories on why people go along with it in the way they do, but I don't see it definitively explained. We just know it's there.
I've been thinking about this interview with Helen Joyce where she talks about how parents who have transed their kids have to stay ideologically committed to that for the rest of their lives, because they've caused so much harm to their child that they can't never undo.
I wonfder if this is a factor for some medical people too.
I also think that there are doctors in it for the glory. The surgeons in particular who are honing their skills on the genitals and breasts of teenagers. Those ones can get fucked.
It is the children that I really get riled up about.
A girl child I know of had a phase of telling her mother "I a boy, I a boy". From this in the next few years up until now this child was subjected to all sorts of chemical interventions.
This idea, as a child, that you wish to be another thing is common and non worrying to most parents, kids grow out of it or parents/GP undertake watchful waiting.
Puberty for young people is a difficult time. We all know it. Psychologists and child development experts know it. Body changes, hormone fluctuations, social engagement, distancing from family, peer connections all have significant impacts on individuals. Many women will be able to relate how dealing with menstruation and body changes was often a cause for embarrassment or shame. The development of their bodies often attracting unwanted attention or comment – both from strangers and sometimes from previously trusted adults. Men have their own stories of this period. They are significantly different.
Self-exploration and understanding is a major part of that period. Fluidity in presentation, identification and connections is not only expected, but an aid in defining your adult self.
I grieve for the vulnerability of the young people caught up in this. The autistic, the non-regressive-stereotypical, the same-sex oriented, the ones with co-morbidities.
I hope that many have adopted an identity that required no interventions – and they will be able to walk away unscathed by a need for long-term medical treatment. For others, that have permanent outcomes to deal with, we need to demand high-quality, accessible, ongoing support.
I grieve for the vulnerability of the young people caught up in this. The autistic, the non-regressive-stereotypical, the same-sex oriented, the ones with co-morbidities.
Going down a path that is non reversible is tragic. It completely in my view blows out the concept of 'first do no harm'. This concept is not try to find the way then check that it is not harmful. That is of sizing up a child as a possibilty for intervention from the time the child walks through the door. It works in a reverse way.
I accept that Drs do have this expectation that they will do something to help us ie prescribe something…so much so that MOH/GPs were on a programme to deter antibiotics use where they were not needed.
You can see how young the girl child I was referring to by the language used 'I a boy, I a boy.' This was not a pre teen but rather perhaps a pre schooler.
This to me is a clear example of what might be behind some of this ideology.
It's those same old ideas / questions that can be asked when you want to find out who might be behind various things (at least to some extent) You can 'follow the money' and / or ask "who benefits?"
In this example the child doesn't benefit, the parents don't benefit (except maybe in their own minds in the short term). The beneficiary here is whoever produces, pushes and distributes the said chemicals, which would be everybody's friend, the pharmaceutical industry.
"The Professional Association for Transgender Health Aotearoa (PATHA) is disappointed to see the number of harmful recommendations made by the NHS-commissioned Cass Review, released yesterday in England. This review ignores the consensus of major medical bodies around the world and lacks relevance in an Aotearoa context."
"The final Cass Review did not include trans or non-binary experts or clinicians experienced in providing gender affirming care in its decision-making, conclusions, or findings. Instead, a number of people involved in the review and the advisory group previously advocated for bans on gender affirming care in the United States, and have promoted non-affirming ‘gender exploratory therapy’, which is considered a conversion practice."
It’s shocking to see such a significant inquiry into transgender health completely disregard the voices of transgender experts. It would be like reviewing women’s health with no women, or Māori health with no Māori involved.
In spring 2023 the Review commissioned six support and advocacy organisations to facilitate a series of focus groups with former, current and potential future service users to understand their experiences and to capture their thoughts and ideas about what they need and want from services and how they would want to access them.
The Review worked through host organisations because they were able to provide a safe environment in which participants felt comfortable and confident to speak freely and could be supported before, during and after the sessions.
The brief was:
To facilitate between 15 – 20 focus group sessions (delivered by a range of organisations)
The focus group participants should be people with lived experience, i.e., those who identify as transgender, non-binary, gender fluid and/or young people who have been through a period of gender questioning, ideally, but not exclusively, people who have used NHS gender services, or are likely to use those services in the future.
Each focus group should engage with between 10 – 15 people, in the age range of 14 – 30 years. There will be some topics where parental / family perspectives may be helpful, but the focus is predominantly on the young people themselves.
Each discussion session should last for a minimum of 1 hour.
Host Organisations were asked to:
Work with the Review team to agree the format, focus and key questions for the sessions.
Recruit appropriate participants, in line with the criteria set out above.
Provide support to participants before, during and after the sessions as required.
Facilitate discussions in an open and non-directive way.
Compile and submit to the Cass Review team an accurate and comprehensive written report of the outputs from each focus group, including an anonymised profile of participants – age, expressed gender identity, whether they have accessed GIDs, region that they are resident.
Attend a meeting with the Cass Review team to discuss learning from the sessions.
The Review team set the questions explored through the group sessions. While the support organisations could pose additional questions, it was expected that the topics/questions put forward by the Review team would remain the main focus of discussion.
I'm not putting my trust in any group at this time, weka. Picking sides at this early stage of my learning seems irresponsible to me. I'll keep reading from the various camps and treat each issue with an open mind, as best I can.
you literally just said that PATHA's position sounded reasonable, and I pointed out they told a blatant lie, and you want to equivocate with me over trust?
It's not early. We have been talking about this on TS for years, and the debate has been raging internationally for longer. Children have been damaged because of organisations like PATHA. Please go read the Cass review post and inform yourself.
like I said to Phil yesterday, I have some sympathy for people trying to get their head around this complex situation. Hard this late in the game. But at some point the ignorance becomes wilful. You've been in these debates for some time, this isn't an early stage for you either.
"you literally just said that PATHA's position sounded reasonable, and I pointed out they told a blatant lie, and you want to equivocate with me over trust?"
I said it sounded reasonable. Are you expecting me to abandon my opinion after just one claim from you?
YOU may "have been talking about this on TS for years", but others might like to form their own views in light of the present situation with the release of a report and responses from various agencies appearing on the internet.
Is a case of your way, or the highway?
Or should we just rename The Standard, The Stroppery?
Does this mean that even lies are useful in forming an opinion?
Perhaps in a philosophical way they are as they can point towards a truth. To do this though we need to know the truth or the least worst way of looking at something.
We need to look at: are these orgs or people that can be trusted?
Trying to get a handle on this is laudable but perhaps late.
As a personal view the lack of a base of knowledge does not seemed to have stopped you from commenting on womens rights/trans views over all the years that these topics have been raised.
Having learned how to research it is usual to get the accepted view under your belt. Then branch out to see commentators.
I would start with the Cass Review, incl the terms of reference, then read and then look up every single footnote. You will then get a view on the sources that this establishment view found relevant and those that it did not. Then look at comentators such as BMJ etc. Once you have the prevailing views then branch out….widening the circle.
Cass set a high bar in not accepting views that did meet her threshhold of what constituted good research procedure-wise.
In doing research as a newcomer we can become confused if we look at commentary before we know what the issues are. It just become like a smorgasboard or a pick & mix. Just a gigantic mush
This is a concept that should be familar across many spheres even including art. We learn all the rules about mark marking in visual art before we have the competence to break them. If we do this before having a deep understanding of the 'rules' our art is often amateurish and people just think we don't 'know' about making art
"Does this mean that even lies are useful in forming an opinion?"
I commented "sounded reasonable" – it did, in my opinion.
weka claimed "lies". I don't know if weka was correct in their claim; they provided bullet points in support.
I've reserved my judgement in anticipation of more evidence. I reckon that's reasonable.
"Having learned how to research it is usual to get the accepted view under your belt. Then branch out to see commentators."
I'm well aware that this is the view shared here, however, I liken commenting on this issue to other issues, especially those that interest me the most; soil health, for example. If a commenter said something naive about that topic, I'd be pleased enough that they cared to think about it, rather than demand they do their homework. Even if they continued to question the need for a living soil, or whatever, I'd think they were engaging and potentially turning over rocks that might otherwise have disappeared from view. I'm not claiming to do that btw – best to make every nuance of my comment crystal clear for fear of being accused of opacity 🙂
Also (not only but) if a commenter with my interest in lefty issues wasn't able to comment on this particular topic; women's rights/trans, there'd be bugger-all else to talk about, bar WWIII.
weka claimed "lies". I don't know if weka was correct in their claim; they provided bullet points in support.
No Robert, I provided the standard TS level of evidence: my explanation, some supporting quotes and a link to back up the claim.
This is where the wilful ignorance bit comes in. If you won't inform yourself even when the information is laid out in front of you, that's one thing. But when you then misrepresent the nature of that information, that is a problem for the rest of us.
You have missed my point. If you actually did know and read the Cass Review in depth you wouldn't actually be ascribing 'reasonableness' to the PATHA link.
As a learner you'd be asking how is it that this group seems not to believe the Cass Review? Seeking guidance that may not have been apparent to you as a learner.
You came out as though it may be a truth or at least 'reasonable' which had you read and inwardly digested Cass you would not have. The review is not that difficult to understand.
A more advanced learner might be carefully reading but probably coming to the Mandy Rice-Davies conclusion
"Well they would say that wouldn't they?'
You haven't commented on how you were able to comment on many of the Women's rights/trans posts here over the years, with no tentativeness or wish for learning, without this background that you are reading in the Cass Review?
You have posited views many, many times that have involved many of us in getting material or expressing views only to find now that in fact actually you hadn't read up, or know the issues. To say it feels like somewhat of a betrayal to have been misled like this is an understatement.
"This is a concept that should be familar across many spheres even including art. We learn all the rules about mark marking in visual art before we have the competence to break them. If we do this before having a deep understanding of the 'rules' our art is often amateurish and people just think we don't 'know' about making art"
Children then, cannot be artists until they have been taught the rules of art?
Picasso famously described his anguish at having to unlearn his teachings in order to draw like a child again.
You may be interested too, in The Fool card from the tarot deck, and the trickster figure from so many different indigenous cultural story-telling traditions, including and especially our own Māui tiki tiki a Taranga.
Robert I used art as an example to show how this step by step reading/learning goes. I have a degree in fine art and learning art is somewhat of a topic in the art world with some saying you have to be a natural at art to learn art and others saying that art, like any other discipline can reveal itself by step by step learning. Of course there are exceptions of course there are the naive artists.
Naive artists though are few. Talented people who have a possible head start in eye hand coordination are many and can be taught further.
Of more wonder is the story I heard from a teacher who believed children can be taught and recognise what we believe might be advanced concepts. He taught 5-7 year olds how to do perspective, at an adult level with looking at a mathematical approach, including infinity.
He said children knew that they were not drawing how their eyes saw the world. They were able to relate to what was being taught and were joyous at the idea of being able to show walls etc instead of a flat surface.
In general when researching step by step works best…..working out from a known source to wider views, practices.
"you literally just said that PATHA's position sounded reasonable, and I pointed out they told a blatant lie, and you want to equivocate with me over trust?"
I said it sounded reasonable. Are you expecting me to abandon my opinion after just one claim from you?
I think this indicates that you don't have the knowledge from Cass Review under your belt. If you had you would not be saying phrases like 'one claim from you.' You would have known that what PATHA was saying did not line up with what the Cass Review had said. You might even have been able to utter/think the famous Mandy Rice-Davies phrase 'well they would say that wouldn't they?"
I said it sounded reasonable. Are you expecting me to abandon my opinion after just one claim from you?
No. If I were merely making a claim I would expect people to scroll on by.
Instead, I spent a five days reading the various commentaries on the Cass report before I put up a whole post. That post includes references that people who want to inform themselves can read.
I also addressed Phil's inane comments specifically because I had done all that reading and knew he didn't know what he was talking about. He was was someone making a casual claim and he was just flat out wrong.
This morning I responded to your own claim of 'sounds reasonable' with,
my considerable experience in reading about the responses to the CR
an explanation of how PATHA are wrong
links to back that up
Others have also provided commentary on this. We are not the ones making 'just one claim'.
I have seen you in conversations like this over time, and it's always the same. You can take any position you like, but you cannot on TS not expect to be criticised for that position.
Call TS whatever you like, but when any regular here puts up highly misleading commentary, there will be pushback, and if they don't acknowledge the mistake, then there is likely to be comment on that too. Stroppery or robust debate, we are one of the few places online that holds a standard of truth. It takes work to do that, which is why some of us take a very dim view of lies and obfuscation on important political topics. If you think I am out of line here, you can look at how lprent deals with such comments on other topics.
If you don't believe me about the CR then make an actual argument backed up by something real, not some useless propaganda talking points from an organisation that itself has been critiqued by Cass and where those talking points have already been roundly criticised.
It’s shocking to see such a significant inquiry into transgender health completely disregard the voices of transgender experts. It would be like reviewing women’s health with no women, or Māori health with no Māori involved.
Oh, you mean like that time Stats NZ decided to prioritise gender identity data over biological sex across its organisation and consulted with rainbow groups but didn't talk to any women's groups?
The care and concern demonstrated for trans people individually and as a class throughout the documents is evident and to be applauded. What I don’t understand is why this isn’t also being seen as an issue for women. If the intention is to largely replace sex data with gender data, then why have women not been consulted in this given sex is central to a wide range of experiences of being biologically female in NZ society?
In their process of developing changes to the standards, Stats NZ convened an external expert advisory group in 2019 to assist with aspects of the review. There were no women’s groups represented.
that was one of the more risible parts of PATHA's response. The Cass review was for NHS England. It took into account international research, but it's purpose was UK focused.
But imagine if drugs and surgeries in other areas of medicine were being critiqued internationally and a group said, oh that doesn't apply to NZ.
PATHA are sounding a tad pre-emptively defensive there 😉
Completed reads for April: The Difference Engine, by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling Carnival of Saints, by George Herman The Snow Spider, by Jenny Nimmo Emlyn’s Moon, by Jenny Nimmo The Chestnut Soldier, by Jenny Nimmo Death Comes As the End, by Agatha Christie Lord of the Flies, by ...
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
Have a story to share about St Paul’s, but today just picturesPopular novels written at this desk by a young man who managed to bootstrap himself out of father’s imprisonment and his own young life in a workhouse Read more ...
The list of former National Party Ministers being given plum and important roles got longer this week with the appointment of former Deputy Prime Minister Paula Bennett as the chair of Pharmac. The Christopher Luxon-led Government has now made key appointments to Bill English, Simon Bridges, Steven Joyce, Roger Sowry, ...
Newsroom has a story today about National's (fortunately failed) effort to disestablish the newly-created Inspector-General of Defence. The creation of this agency was the key recommendation of the Inquiry into Operation Burnham, and a vital means of restoring credibility and social licence to an agency which had been caught lying ...
Holding On To The Present:The moment a political movement arises that attacks the whole idea of social progress, and announces its intention to wind back the hands of History’s clock, then democracy, along with its unwritten rules, is in mortal danger.IT’S A COMMONPLACE of political speeches, especially those delivered in ...
Stuck In The Middle With You:As Christopher Luxon feels the hot breath of Act’s and NZ First’s extremists on the back of his neck and, as he reckons with the damage their policies are already inflicting upon a country he’s described as “fragile”, is there not some merit in reaching out ...
The unpopular coalition government is currently rushing to repeal section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act. The clause is Oranga Tamariki's Treaty clause, and was inserted after its systematic stealing of Māori children became a public scandal and resulted in physical resistance to further abductions. The clause created clear obligations ...
Buzz from the Beehive The government’s official website – which Point of Order monitors daily – not for the first time has nothing much to say today about political happenings that are grabbing media headlines. It makes no mention of the latest 1News-Verian poll, for example. This shows National down ...
It Takes A Train To Cry:Surely, there is nothing lonelier in all this world than the long wail of a distant steam locomotive on a cold Winter’s night.AS A CHILD, I would lie awake in my grandfather’s house and listen to the traffic. The big wooden house was only a ...
Packing A Punch: The election of the present government, including in its ranks politicians dedicated to reasserting the rights of the legislature in shaping and determining the future of Māori and Pakeha in New Zealand, should have alerted the judiciary – including its anomalous appendage, the Waitangi Tribunal – that its ...
Dead Woman Walking: New Zealand’s media industry had been moving steadily towards disaster for all the years Melissa Lee had been National’s media and communications policy spokesperson, and yet, when the crisis finally broke, on her watch, she had nothing intelligent to offer. Christopher Luxon is a patient man - but he’s not ...
Chris Trotter writes – New Zealand politics is remarkably easy-going: dangerously so, one might even say. With the notable exception of John Key’s flat ruling-out of the NZ First Party in 2008, all parties capable of clearing MMP’s five-percent threshold, or winning one or more electorate seats, tend ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Polling shows that Wellington Mayor Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating of any mayor in the country. Siting at -12 per cent, the proportion of constituents who disapprove of her performance outweighs those who give her the thumbs up. This negative rating is ...
Luxon will no doubt put a brave face on it, but there is no escaping the pressure this latest poll will put on him and the government. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political ...
This is a re-post from The Climate Brink by Andrew Dessler In the wake of any unusual weather event, someone inevitably asks, “Did climate change cause this?” In the most literal sense, that answer is almost always no. Climate change is never the sole cause of hurricanes, heat waves, droughts, or ...
Something odd happened yesterday, and I’d love to know if there’s more to it. If there was something which preempted what happened, or if it was simply a throwaway line in response to a journalist.Yesterday David Seymour was asked at a press conference what the process would be if the ...
Hi,From time to time, I want to bring Webworm into the real world. We did it last year with the Jurassic Park event in New Zealand — which was a lot of fun!And so on Saturday May 11th, in Los Angeles, I am hosting a lil’ Webworm pop-up! I’ve been ...
Education Minister Erica Standford yesterday unveiled a fundamental reform of the way our school pupils are taught. She would not exactly say so, but she is all but dismantling the so-called “inquiry” “feel good” method of teaching, which has ruled in our classrooms since a major review of the New ...
Exactly where are we seriously going with this government and its policies? That is, apart from following what may as well be a Truss-Lite approach on the purported economic “plan“, and Victorian-era regression when it comes to social policy.Oh it’ll work this time of course, we’re basically assured, “the ...
Hey Uncle Dave, When the Poms joined the EEC, I wasn't one of those defeatists who said, Well, that’s it for the dairy job. And I was right, eh? The Chinese can’t get enough of our milk powder and eventually, the Poms came to their senses and backed up the ute ...
Polling shows that Wellington Mayor Tory Whanau has the lowest approval rating of any mayor in the country. Siting at -12 per cent, the proportion of constituents who disapprove of her performance outweighs those who give her the thumbs up. This negative rating is higher than for any other mayor ...
Buzz from the Beehive Pharmac has been given a financial transfusion and a new chair to oversee its spending in the pharmaceutical business. Associate Health Minister David Seymour described the funding for Pharmac as “its largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff”. ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Many criticisms are being made of the Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill, including by this writer. But as with everything in politics, every story has two sides, and both deserve attention. It’s important to understand what the Government is trying to achieve and its ...
TL;DR: Here’s my top 10 ‘pick ‘n’ mix of links to news, analysis and opinion articles as of 10:10am on Monday, April 29:Scoop: The children's ward at Rotorua Hospital will be missing a third of its beds as winter hits because Te Whatu Ora halted an upgrade partway through to ...
span class=”dropcap”>As hideous as David Seymour can be, it is worth keeping in mind occasionally that there are even worse political figures (and regimes) out there. Iran for instance, is about to execute the country’s leading hip hop musician Toomaj Salehi, for writing and performing raps that “corrupt” the nation’s ...
Yesterday marked 10 years since the first electric train carried passengers in Auckland so it’s a good time to look back at it and the impact it has had. A brief history The first proposals for rail electrification in Auckland came in the 1920’s alongside the plans for earlier ...
Right now, in Aotearoa-NZ, our ‘animal spirits’ are darkening towards a winter of discontent, thanks at least partly to a chorus of negative comments and actions from the Government Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on ...
You make people evil to punish the paststuck inside a sequel with a rotating castThe following photos haven’t been generated with AI, or modified in any way. They are flesh and blood, human beings. On the left is Galatea Young, a young mum, and her daughter Fiadh who has Angelman ...
April has been a quiet month at A Phuulish Fellow. I have had an exceptionally good reading month, and a decently productive writing month – for original fiction, anyway – but not much has caught my eye that suggested a blog article. It has been vaguely frustrating, to be honest. ...
A listing of 31 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, April 21, 2024 thru Sat, April 27, 2024. Story of the week Anthropogenic climate change may be the ultimate shaggy dog story— but with a twist, because here ...
Hi,I spent about a year on Webworm reporting on an abusive megachurch called Arise, and it made me want to stab my eyes out with a fork.I don’t regret that reporting in 2022 and 2023 — I am proud of it — but it made me angry.Over three main stories ...
The new Victoria University Vice-Chancellor decided to have a forum at the university about free speech and academic freedom as it is obviously a topical issue, and the Government is looking at legislating some carrots or sticks for universities to uphold their obligations under the Education and Training Act. They ...
Do you remember when Melania Trump got caught out using a speech that sounded awfully like one Michelle Obama had given? Uncannily so.Well it turns out that Abraham Lincoln is to Winston Peters as Michelle was to Melania. With the ANZAC speech Uncle Winston gave at Gallipoli having much in ...
She was born 25 years ago today in North Shore hospital. Her eyes were closed tightly shut, her mouth was silently moving. The whole theatre was all quiet intensity as they marked her a 2 on the APGAR test. A one-minute eternity later, she was an 8. The universe was ...
Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. This fact brief was written by Sue Bin Park in collaboration with members from our Skeptical Science team. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Is Antarctica gaining land ice? ...
Images of US students (and others) protesting and setting up tent cities on US university campuses have been broadcast world wide and clearly demonstrate the growing rifts in US society caused by US policy toward Israel and Israel’s prosecution of … Continue reading → ...
Barrie Saunders writes – Dear Paul As the new Minister of Media and Communications, you will be inundated with heaps of free advice and special pleading, all in the national interest of course. For what it’s worth here is my assessment: Traditional broadcasting free to air content through ...
Many criticisms are being made of the Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill, including by this writer. But as with everything in politics, every story has two sides, and both deserve attention. It’s important to understand what the Government is trying to achieve and its arguments for such a bold reform. ...
Peter Dunne writes – The great nineteenth British Prime Minister, William Gladstone, once observed that “the first essential for a Prime Minister is to be a good butcher.” When a later British Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan, sacked a third of his Cabinet in July 1962, in what became ...
Ele Ludemann writes – New Zealanders had the OECD’s second highest tax increase last year: New Zealanders faced the second-biggest tax raises in the developed world last year, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) says. The intergovernmental agency said the average change in personal income tax ...
We all know something’s not right with our elections. The spread of misinformation, people being targeted with soundbites and emotional triggers that ignore the facts, even the truth, and influence their votes.The use of technology to produce deep fakes. How can you tell if something is real or not? Can ...
This video includes conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Simon Clark. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). This year you will be lied to! Simon Clark helps prebunk some misleading statements you'll hear about climate. The video includes ...
It is all very well cutting the backrooms of public agencies but it may compromise the frontlines. One of the frustrations of the Productivity Commission’s 2017 review of universities is that while it observed that their non-academic staff were increasing faster than their academic staff, it did not bother to ...
Buzz from the Beehive Two speeches delivered by Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters at Anzac Day ceremonies in Turkey are the only new posts on the government’s official website since the PM announced his Cabinet shake-up. In one of the speeches, Peters stated the obvious: we live in a troubled ...
1. Which of these would you not expect to read in The Waikato Invader?a. Luxon is here to do business, don’t you worry about thatb. Mr KPI expects results, and you better believe itc. This decisive man of action is getting me all hot and excitedd. Melissa Lee is how ...
…it has a restricted jurisdiction which must not be abused: it is not an inquisitionNOTE – this article was published before the High Court ruled that Karen Chhour does not have to appear before the Waitangi Tribunal Gary Judd writes – The High Court ...
Lindsay Mitchell writes – One of reasons Oranga Tamariki exists is to prevent child neglect. But could the organisation itself be guilty of the same?Oranga Tamariki’s statistics show a decrease in the number and age of children in care. “There are less children ...
David Farrar writes: Graeme Edgeler wrote in 2017: In the first five years after three strikes came into effect 5248 offenders received a ‘first strike’ (that is, a “stage-1 conviction” under the three strikes sentencing regime), and 68 offenders received a ‘second strike’. In the five years prior to ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has surprised everyone with his ruthlessness in sacking two of his ministers from their crucial portfolios. Removing ministers for poor performance after only five months in the job just doesn’t normally happen in politics. That’s refreshing and will be extremely ...
TL;DR: These are the six things that stood out to me in news and commentary on Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the two days to 6:06am on Thursday, April 25:Politics: PM Christopher Luxon has set up a dual standard for ministerial competence by demoting two National Cabinet ministers while leaving also-struggling ...
Hi,Today I mainly want to share some of your thoughts about the recent piece I wrote about success and failure, and the forces that seemingly guide our lives. But first, a quick bit of housekeeping: I am doing a Webworm popup in Los Angeles on Saturday May 11 at 2pm. ...
It is hard to see what Melissa Lee might have done to “save” the media. National went into the election with no public media policy and appears not to have developed one subsequently. Lee claimed that she had prepared a policy paper before the election but it had been decided ...
Open access notablesIce acceleration and rotation in the Greenland Ice Sheet interior in recent decades, Løkkegaard et al., Communications Earth & Environment:In the past two decades, mass loss from the Greenland ice sheet has accelerated, partly due to the speedup of glaciers. However, uncertainty in speed derived from satellite products ...
Buzz from the Beehive A statement from Children’s Minister Karen Chhour – yet to be posted on the Government’s official website – arrived in Point of Order’s email in-tray last night. It welcomes the High Court ruling on whether the Waitangi Tribunal can demand she appear before it. It does ...
Mr Bombastic:Ironically, the media the academic experts wanted is, in many ways, the media they got. In place of the tyrannical editors of yesteryear, advancing without fear or favour the interests of the ruling class; the New Zealand news media of today boasts a troop of enlightened journalists dedicated to ...
It's hard times try to make a livingYou wake up every morning in the unforgivingOut there somewhere in the cityThere's people living lives without mercy or pityI feel good, yeah I'm feeling fineI feel better then I have for the longest timeI think these pills have been good for meI ...
In 1974, the US Supreme Court issued its decision in United States v. Nixon, finding that the President was not a King, but was subject to the law and was required to turn over the evidence of his wrongdoing to the courts. It was a landmark decision for the rule ...
Every day now just seems to bring in more fresh meat for the grinder.In their relentlessly ideological drive to cut back on the “excessive bloat” (as they see it) of the previous Labour-led government, on the mountains of evidence accumulated in such a short period of time do not ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Megan Valére SosouMarket gardening site of the Itchèléré de Itagui agricultural cooperative in Dassa-Zoumè (Image credit: Megan Valère Sossou) For the residents of Dassa-Zoumè, a city in the West African country of Benin, choosing between drinking water and having enough ...
Buzz from the Beehive Melissa Lee – as may be discerned from the screenshot above – has not been demoted for doing something seriously wrong as Minister of ...
Morning in London Mother hugs beloved daughter outside the converted shoe factory in which she is living.Afternoon in London Travelling writer takes himself and his wrist down to A&E, just to be sure. Read more ...
Mike Grimshaw writes – The recent announcement of the University Advisory Group, chaired by Sir Peter Gluckman, makes very clear where the Government’s focus and priorities lie. The remit of the Advisory Group is that Group members will consider challenges and opportunities for improvement in the university sector including: ...
Eric Crampton writes – The Reserve Bank of New Zealand desperately wants to find reasons to have workstreams in climate change. It makes little sense. They’ve run another stress test on the banks looking to see if they could find a prudential regulation case. They couldn’t. They ...
Rob MacCullough writes – Pundits from the left and the right are arguing that National’s Fast Track Bill that is designed to speed up infrastructure decisions could end up becoming mired in a cesspool of corruption. Political commentator ...
Looking at the headlines this morning it’s hard to feel anything other than pessimistic about the future of humanity.Note that I’m not speaking about the future of mankind, but the survival of our humanity. The values that we believe in seem to be ebbing away, by the day.Perhaps every generation ...
Swabbing mixed breed baby chicks to test for avian influenzaUh oh. Bird flu – often deadly to humans – is not only being transmitted from infected birds to dairy cows, but is now travelling between dairy cows. As of last Friday, Bloomberg News reports, there were 32 American dairy herds ...
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
What is it with the mining industry? Its not enough for them to pillage the earth - they apparently can't even be bothered getting resource consent to do so: The proponent behind a major mine near the Clutha River had already been undertaking activity in the area without a ...
Photo # 1 I am a huge fan of Singapore’s approach to housing, as described here two years ago by copying and pasting from The ConversationWhat Singapore has that Australia does not is a public housing developer, the Housing Development Board, which puts new dwellings on public and reclaimed land, ...
This afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te Pāti Māori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. “This act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.” Said Te Pāti Māori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi, and Mema Paremata mō Tāmaki-Makaurau, Takutai Tarsh Kemp, will travel to the Gold Coast to strengthen ties with Māori in Australia next week (15-21 April). The visit, in the lead-up to the 9th Australian National Kapa haka Festival, will be an opportunity for both ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
The return of the historic Ō-Rākau battle site to the descendants of those who fought there moved one step closer today with the first reading of Te Pire mō Ō-Rākau, Te Pae o Maumahara / The Ō-Rākau Remembrance Bill. The Bill will entrust the 9.7-hectare battle site, five kilometres west ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has announced 25 new high-speed EV charging hubs along key routes between major urban centres and outlined the Government’s plan to supercharge New Zealand’s EV infrastructure. The hubs will each have several chargers and be capable of charging at least four – and up to 10 ...
The coalition Government will not proceed with the previous Government’s plans to regulate residential property managers, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “I have written to the Chairperson of the Social Services and Community Committee to inform him that the Government does not intend to support the Residential Property Managers Bill ...
The Government has announced an independent review into the disability support system funded by the Ministry of Disabled People – Whaikaha. Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston says the review will look at what can be done to strengthen the long-term sustainability of Disability Support Services to provide disabled people and ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith has attended the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva and outlined the Government’s plan to restore law and order. “Speaking to the United Nations Human Rights Council provided us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while responding to issues and ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay heads overseas today for high-level trade talks in the Gulf region, and a key OECD meeting in Paris. Mr McClay will travel to Riyadh to meet with counterparts from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC). “New Zealand’s goods and services exports to the Gulf region ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford has outlined six education priorities to deliver a world-leading education system that sets Kiwi kids up for future success. “I’m putting ambition, achievement and outcomes at the heart of our education system. I want every child to be inspired and engaged in their learning so they ...
The new NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) App is a secure ‘one stop shop’ to provide the services drivers need, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Digitising Government Minister Judith Collins say. “The NZTA App will enable an easier way for Kiwis to pay for Vehicle Registration and Road User Charges (RUC). ...
Whānau with tamariki growing up in emergency housing motels will be prioritised for social housing starting this week, says Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka. “Giving these whānau a better opportunity to build healthy stable lives for themselves and future generations is an essential part of the Government’s goal of reducing ...
Racing Minister Winston Peters has paid tribute to an icon of the industry with the recent passing of Dave O’Sullivan (OBE). “Our sympathies are with the O’Sullivan family with the sad news of Dave O’Sullivan’s recent passing,” Mr Peters says. “His contribution to racing, initially as a jockey and then ...
Assalaamu alaikum, greetings to you all. Eid Mubarak, everyone! I want to extend my warmest wishes to you and everyone celebrating this joyous occasion. It is a pleasure to be here. I have enjoyed Eid celebrations at Parliament before, but this is my first time joining you as the Minister ...
Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced Pharmac’s largest ever budget of $6.294 billion over four years, fixing a $1.774 billion fiscal cliff. “Access to medicines is a crucial part of many Kiwis’ lives. We’ve committed to a budget allocation of $1.774 billion over four years so Kiwis are ...
Hon Paula Bennett has been appointed as member and chair of the Pharmac board, Associate Health Minister David Seymour announced today. "Pharmac is a critical part of New Zealand's health system and plays a significant role in ensuring that Kiwis have the best possible access to medicines,” says Mr Seymour. ...
Hundreds of New Zealand families affected by Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD) will benefit from a new Government focus on prevention and treatment, says Health Minister Dr Shane Reti. “We know FASD is a leading cause of preventable intellectual and neurodevelopmental disability in New Zealand,” Dr Reti says. “Every day, ...
Regional Development Minister Shane Jones today attended the official opening of Kaikohe’s new $14.7 million sports complex. “The completion of the Kaikohe Multi Sports Complex is a fantastic achievement for the Far North,” Mr Jones says. “This facility not only fulfils a long-held dream for local athletes, but also creates ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters’ engagements in Türkiye this week underlined the importance of diplomacy to meet growing global challenges. “Returning to the Gallipoli Peninsula to represent New Zealand at Anzac commemorations was a sombre reminder of the critical importance of diplomacy for de-escalating conflicts and easing tensions,” Mr Peters ...
Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen – good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service. It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood – a deeply ...
Distinguished guests - It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
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I just found this link to an interview with Derrick Jensen. Environmentalist, "old growth leftie", who is surprised as to what got him cancelled. Writing about blowing up dams, no-one cared but question modern queer theory you get cancelled. HT Dark Waters on Daily Blog.
It is an hour and a half and does have some good insights.
Interesting move for Jensen to be interviewed by Southern.
Jensen's A Language Older Than Words was hugely influential on my deep green politics back in the day. I hung out on one of his forums for a while, in this Salmon/blow up dams years.
Him and the Deep Greens got absolute shit for their defence of material reality and sex based rights. Tbf they were pretty rude about transwomen, but as we all eventually learn, being kind isn't a successful strategy.
You might enjoy this if you have seen it.
Short version
https://youtu.be/PJsf5QY12rg?si=zBIjoixv2SHVIlT8
Long version
https://youtu.be/Cb3-tlyuhVo?si=4DkeJf7bDu7KH4Gb
you can follow the breadcrumbs from that. Jensen knows what he is doing here but many of the hard core identitarians won't get past the mention of paedophilia and queer theory 🤷♀️ The value is for the people trying to figure out what tf is going on in this whole thing.
I am far from a scholar of queer theory.
From what DJ is quoting elements of it sure sounds a tad fringe. I trust there isn't a lack of context.
He's talking about the origins of QT as a way of demonstrating the connections between QT and child sexual abuse. It's not that all of QT is paedophiliac, it's that the culture of QT is centred in highly valuing transgression and this undermines child safeguarding, allowing people who want child sex to be legal/tolerated to find some power.
He names Focault, Gayle Rubin, Pat Califia, Judith Butler, all people highly influential in QT. Butler is contemporary, and recently released a book. She is a very influential academic.
Most people who call themselves queer wouldn't know who most of those people are. But the reason it's such a problem now is because No Debate means no critique can be made publicly without accusations of transphobia or homophobia.
You can see the disconnect in the video. When show evidence of child sexual abuse apologia, instead of engage with the evidence and testing its robustness, the QT students are hurling accusations that in today's world are often damaging.
It's the same dynamic as why it took a 4 year independent medical system review to look at child and youth gender transition in the UK. Because the people who were raising concerns were shut down and the rest of the people who would otherwise have looked at the safeguarding issues were too scared to. People lost their jobs, marriages, careers, friends over this.
It's also finds expression in Rainbow culture. Pride was originally an adult celebration of adult homosexuality. Now it's trying to be family friendly, which means you have men exhibiting their sexual fetishes in public with children. Again, when people try to point this out, there is denial and ostracisation.
And because the progressive voices have been so successfully shut down, the debate is now terribly skewed to the right. Hence Brian Tamaki and co painting of rainbow crossings, the liberal left up in arms about that, and you and I are talking in yesterdays DR instead of there being front page posts all week about the Cass Review, Giggle v Tickle, and some dude in the North America who has just won a legal court case that will mean he can use public health services to have a neovagina created while retaining his penis. Because that's his gender identity.
Thanks for the overview.
There are parallels described in the Believe the Children episode of the Things Fell Apart podcast.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/s1-ep-4-believe-the-children/id1592984136?i=1000540368101
That phenomena of strange bedfellows (Southern, Peterson, Tamaki) is rendered all the more stark with the lack of natural allies from the progressive "left". (The "Punching down" and pedancy around phrasing/wordgames crowd).
Jensen's reference to old growth lefty resonates, but less from a wild nature lens more from a worker/class standpoint.
From Wanda Sykes, black US comedian:
“To me, the whole complaint about cancel culture is a lot of men — especially straight men — who are just pissed that they can’t say things any more, y’know?” Sykes explained, “And it’s not like you can’t say these things. You can say them, but now there’s just consequences.” Sykes continued, "That’s why I say I can’t get canceled. Only God can say: ‘All right, Wanda, that’s enough.’”
https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/wanda-sykes-says-%E2%80%98cancel-culture%E2%80%99-is-just-code-for-consequences.5269804/
Women who have been cancelled because of speaking out about women's sex based rights
Alison Bailey, black, feminist, lesbian, long time activist for racial equality and LGB rights.
Kathleen Stock, feminist lesbian philosopher.
Jo Phoenix, feminist, lesbian, criminologist
Ten examples of women in the UK who have been assaulted or threatened physically when talking about women's sex based rights
https://sex-matters.org/posts/freedom-of-speech/the-escalating-campaign-of-intimidation-and-violence-against-gender-critical-women/
that's a short list off the top of my head. There are many more.
The biggest concern ain't the cancelling, it's the societal zeitgiest that give the cancelling some mana. Followers and such.
Ironically I be came aware of some of the concept of the few who are beyond being cancelled. Taylor Swift and Joe Rogan are two examples.
Supporting new fossil fuel development? "What'choo talkin' 'bout,
WillisLuxon?"James Shaw, telling it like it actually is – Parliament's loss
“Global emissions must be halved by the end of the decade” – that’s 2030, Shane.
How a cult captured the NHS: society fails when it treats children like adults
Kathleen Stock aptly sums up "gender affirming care" of minors: https://unherd.com/2024/04/the-liberal-lessons-of-the-cass-report/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups%5B0%5D=18743&tl_period_type=3&utm_source=UnHerd+Today&utm_campaign=a9d7da6ff9-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_04_12_08_39&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_79fd0df946-a9d7da6ff9-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D
As anyone who drives in Auckland knows, whatever the amount is, it is a lot.
https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/12/nzta-does-not-know-how-much-it-spends-on-cones/
Saunders' nit-picking about investment in the safety and well being of workers and the public personifies the right's total disregard for anything other than their own bottom dollar. Fuck ém.
weka
13 April 2024 at 8:04 pm
Women who have been cancelled because of speaking out about women's sex based rights… (lists women)
Drowsy M. Kram
12 April 2024 at 9:59 pm
it's the same thing Robert.
How so?
It's peak patriarchy on both counts.
5,000 years of suppressing women because we embody nature and here humans are about to kill nature itself.
It's not a coincidence that transhumanism is arising at the same time as a full assault on women's rights at the same time as we all ignore impending collapse of biosphere.
The only way out is via embodiment, of ourselves and nature, and we cannot do that without women, from whom we all come.
Missed a bit of context there – Robert (again).
– two different completely different threads;
– weka was participating in a conversation with others putting her own thoughts down;
– Drowsy M Kram was initiating one with their style of posting links to mostly other people's reckons – (which is fine, just not usually good at creating momentum);
– your comment (as it stands) with no editorial – reads as an admonishment to weka for (ironically) talking about women's right's – because Drowsy M Kram's comment is standing there all lonely without someone looking after it.
I'm pointing this out because it is Sunday morning and I'm feeling charitable and thinking perhaps you ARE completely unaware of how your comment can be read by others.
You know, Molly, you're right!
Thanks for pointing this out; your Sunday morning charitability is much appreciated.
Since you are so appreciative, here's another suggestion.
Drowsy's comment is still standing alone in the TS playground. Instead of replying to me, go and play with him in the game you obviously prefer…
Love the playground allusion!
Again, grateful for your kindness!
I thought RG's point was why spend time on this fringe issue when faced with the immediacy of the climate crisis. He's not wrong, apart for his idea that women's sex based rights are fringe and not intrinsically linked to the climate crisis
He will probably equivocate now about my use of the term fringe instead of addressing the substantive points, but I thought it was worth saying how I saw it.
"I thought RG's point was why spend time on this fringe issue when faced with the immediacy of the climate crisis."
Not really. "Two years to save the world" did catch my eye though. The subject of women's sex based rights does come up a lot on The Standard these days. I've long been an advocate for the position that the patriarchy and the state of the planet are intimately linked, and also for the proposal that women were/are/will be the kaitiaki taiao needed if we are to survive much longer. I also believe and profess that indigenous cultures that have maintained a close animistic connection to the living world hold the understanding of how to establish right relationships between humans and non-humans and in particular, the women from those communities and in particular, the older women there.
Transhumanism though – there's a topic!
good to hear this restated Robert!
I agree – his unstated point – was to make that distinction.
It reads to me as someone who is telling others what they are to prioritise and spend their energy on.
The sideways approach to telling women to stop talking. (I also note that Drowsy's comment is still sans replies.)
A real "Do as I say, not as I do" comment.
btw, a post about Cass going up this morning (if I get it finished), in case you are around.
got bogged down in it, so might not get it up today. It's really hard to write a post on this that isn't a novel.
"It's really hard to write a post on this that isn't a novel."
I think it's impossible to be honest. Can only be broken down into small – but still very dense – segments.
this is meant to be an introduction 😬
Just clearing out my bookmarks, and this is good link to Alasdair Gunn from Genspect, talking about the treatment of chidren. (Link provides transcript, which I prefer to watching the video)
https://www.theepochtimes.com/epochtv/how-the-gender-industry-has-parasitized-peoples-emotions-alasdair-gunn-on-the-spike-in-teens-seeking-to-transition-5470406?&utm_medium=AmericanThoughtLeaders&utm_source=YouTube&utm_campaign=AlasdairGunn&utm_content=8-17-2023
sent you an email
Weka
There was a good press release from SUFW on X and now I see that Peter Davis has also put up something linking to BMJ
https://twitter.com/SpeakUp4WomenNZ
thanks, got both of those. Who is Peter Davis?
Presumably this one, weka – not Helen Clark's husband of the same name, lol.
https://twitter.com/PeterByardDavis
Thanks so much for all your work and input into the major (definitely NOT fringe) issue of maintaining and protecting women's hard fought for rights – here on TS and elsewhere. As for your patience with some commenters (RG in particular) on this subject, I certainly could not maintain my composure as you do … !!!
UPDATE – see you found him, but still want to pass on my thanks.
Peter Byard Davis is Helen Clark's husband.
Oops! Thanks for that.
I should have checked further, knowing that Helen C's hubbie is a sociologist!
I appreciate many of your posts here, joe90.
do you mean Helen Clark's husband? Not finding anything online.
found it. Good for him.
https://twitter.com/PeterByardDavis/status/1778880587576819989
Um..!…the link Davis recommends speaks out against 'advocates and activists' campaigning on this issue…when there is little/no quality evidence…
And also notes that 'no professionals 'took part in this cass report..
And seemingly agrees with BMJ…that this report should be the stimulus for further research…
Have you read the BMJ piece..?
[I’ve addressed your very poorly framed points below. I have some sympathy for people trying to get up to speed with what is a complex situation. But this is a major medical scandal where multiple children have been damaged for life. I have zero tolerance for lies and propaganda. From now on, if you want to comment on the Cass report or related issues, you will have to do the following every time
If you fail to do those things each time, I will simply take you out of the debate. If you think this is harsh or unfair, read this so you understand what is at stake – weka]
I've done little for five days but read about the Cass report, and the BMJ piece was one of the first.
The BMJ editor is talking about genderist/pro-trans umbrella NGOs and TRAs there.
The lack of quality evidence refers to the fact that GIDS and other clinics have been giving puberty blockers and later cross sex hormones and surgeries on kids and young people without adequate medical science to base those treatments on.
That's the scandal Phil, and it's a major part of the Cass Reviews final report. You are woefully under-informed here.
Bullshit. Hilary Cass is a professional. She worked with a university. The review was overseen by medical professionals.
What the BMJ is referring to is the fact that nearly all the adult gender clinics in the UK refused to share data with Cass so that she could look at the evidence for whether children treated with affirmation only were being helped existed.
Those clinics have now been told to release teh information by the government, and there is going to be a similar kind of review into the adult clinics as the child ones.
Let that sink in. Medical professionals refused to share crucial information with an independent review that was trying to see if children were being harmed by medical treatment.
Maybe you should take that up with BMj/Pete davis.?…I am just passing their words on..
And I read the admonition to 'activists and advocates' re paucity of reliable evidence to campaign on..
..to be also addressed to the antis such as yourself..
Me..?…I don't have enough evidence to have any certainty on this issue..
And it would seem that applies to pretty much anyone pontificating one way or the other…
And I was quite amused by you and veuto posting something that wasn't what you thought..and that actually tells you to taiho…and to wait for some real/credible evidence.
What is your reaction to that admonition/advice..?
the only reason you're not getting a ban right now is because I have to go out. Read the mod note and respond, you only get one chance at this.
I am telling you you are wrong about Davis' tweet and the BMJ editorial. I'm saying that as someone who has been following this debate closely for 7 years and has been reading a huge amount of analysis in the past 5 days. You simply have the completely wrong end of the stick here.
What have I got wrong about the BMJ article..and Davis's twitter comment..?
Are you saying you know more than BMJ..?
As I said..they are their words..not mine..
I repeat ..what have I misinterpreted from the BMJ piece…?
I mean..it’s a short article..and a tweet..quite easy to read/understand .
You may disagree with them…but why should you jump all over me..for reading/reporting .on yr misreported links..?
Links that question your stance..?
mod note. please acknowledge you have read and understood.
I am talking about what BMJ..and Pete davis said…
I am not saying this..as I said .I am agnostic on this issue ..due to lack of evidence..
And I am commenting on links you and veuto put up..noting they say the opposite to what you thought…
So .really..w.t.f..?..eh..?
Can I suggest people actually read links before posting them..
What 'lies and propaganda..?
This is the British medical Journal .and Pete davis..
Both links that you and veuto posted..?
That you disagree with their conclusions..leads you to accuse me of posting 'lies and propaganda'…?..once again…w.t.f..!
I have read..and I have understood ..
It's quite simple/clear..what's not to understand…?
I think I need a joint ..
Aahh..!!..that's better..!..
A nice mix of indoor/outdoor..freshly ground coffee beans..consumed looking thru the trees out to the body of water..
I recommend the mix of all that..
What I have understood..is that for me not to be banned here..I cannot comment on any story weka has written/is close to ..
And as a general rule of thumb…I should not interact with weka..if at all possible..
…a tad limiting…but I can live with that…
I shall return to the ghettos of o.m./d.r…and peer out from behind a rock…
You have completely misunderstood the BMJ editorial. I’m not explaining it to you because you’re not listening. The conditions of commenting are in the original mod note. Go and sort your head out and reread it, it’s clear.
I have read and reread the BMJ & Peter Davis' X (Twitter) comment. I cannot work out how Philip Ure has read what he has into it.
Peter Davis makes a couple of comments based on the BMJ which in turn has some quotes from the Cass Report. X (Twitter) imposes character limits hence the shortened writing
This is the complete Tweet from Davis
"The Cass review: an opportunity to unite behind evidence informed care in gender medicine" This is a quote from the title of the BMJ article
"Existing evidence woefully poor; cannot justify current 'over-medicalised' interventions." Davis' words presumably from reading the BMJ. The word in quotes come from the BMJ
'Professionals in the field did not cooperate with Cass' Davis' words presumably from reading the BMJ.
This is link to the article in the BMJ.
https://www.bmj.com/content/385/bmj.q837
How anyone could read this and think that BMJ did not support the Cass review I do not know.
The BMJ picks up on a crticism of the Cass Report about setting too high a bar with research standards then states
and
and
and
and finally
'People who are gender non-conforming experience stigmatisation, marginalisation, and harassment in every society. They are vulnerable, particularly during childhood and adolescence. The best way to support them, however, is not with advocacy and activism based on substandard evidence. The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
Feeling your pain, Phillip.
Robert, hopefully the setting out of the tweet & analysis and the link to the BMJ article will alleviate some of your pain.
Peter Davis quotes, presumably approvingly,* from the BMJ's review of the Cass report.
* ie he does not allude to anything he disagrees with.
BMJ picks up on some early crticism of Cass and rebuts that.
The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
https://www.bmj.com/content/385/bmj.q837
That sounds sensible, Shangreah.
@Robert Guyton
"The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
https://www.bmj.com/content/385/bmj.q837
That sounds sensible, Shangreah."
Somehow, you missed the preceding sentences in that closing paragraph:
"People who are gender non-conforming experience stigmatisation, marginalisation, and harassment in every society. They are vulnerable, particularly during childhood and adolescence. The best way to support them, however, is not with advocacy and activism based on substandard evidence. "
I am someone who believes respect needs to be earned. But sometimes it is also lost.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make, Molly, nor why you are offering your opinion to me.
Perhaps you're just bored?
@Robert Guyton
"I have no idea what point you are trying to make, Molly, nor why you are offering your opinion to me.
Perhaps you're just bored?"
Just because I personally find you boorish, doesn't mean I am bored, or that I will ignore your comments if I consider them a misdirection.
This is a public discussion platform, and the thread is discussing a major medical scandal that is becoming harder to deny.
I comment – sometimes – because I believe there are some who seek to diminish the necessary attention and consideration on this issue – and whose efforts in that direction make it much harder to rectify and avoid further unnecessary harm.
For me – you are firmly in that camp.
Your work here is invaluable, Molly. Know that we value you most high!
@Robert Guyton
Part of integrity is not saying things you don't mean, Robert.
If you have nothing to contribute of relevance on this significant issue, have you considered just reading?
Double bad in my books Weka.
First from the Hippocratic oath that all Drs take
Ensuring patient safety is at the heart of the Hippocratic Oath: First, Do No Harm
The notion “do no harm” embodies the medical ethics principle of “non-maleficence”, that is to refrain from doing any harm first, before doing any good.
beneficence, non-maleficence, justice and respect for the patient's autonomy
First do no harm
various links
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath#:~:text=It%20is%20often%20said%20that,wrong%2Ddoing%20and%20harm%22.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5747024/#:~:text=Some%20UK%20schools%20use%20the,of%20the%20oath%20%5B11%5D.
I'm not a Dr but surely the harm from puberty blockers and surgical interventions is/was known. The harm should have been first and foremost in a Dr's mind per Hippocratic oath. Quite apart from the gross known harm ie puberty blockers are not able to be reversed and botched surgical redesigns of sexual organs are well known, these humans acting in an almost God-like capacity really bother me. Sexual response to orgasm can be completely lost on children/adults who have been subject to ‘trans’ ‘work’. And someone decided that this was Ok when that child was pre teen. I don't understand how parents/Drs can do this to anyone.
The second bad is that these Drs were working in the public sector/public sector adjacent and presumably had contracts or other documents plus money from the Govt. Having worked in health when we had a contracting model I know that any group who refused to supply info would
a have had their staff referred to the appropriate professional medical society they belonged to
b had any accreditations pulled from them, leading to
c pausing of funds until a & b had been had been fixed
d our high powered audit team/plus teams from the funder of the general medical services fees (the way Drs are funded) would be there before the records could be 'lost'
e pausing of further funding on an interim basis even before any referrals
Of course these take time.
It may be that the intransigence will serve the Cass Report well in that the Drs are not actually covering themselves with glory in not providing the info. Actually if you read Hannah Barnes book 'Time to Think' you will note that several of those speaking to her (ie former employees) had expressed concern about not recording and not reviewing.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/19/time-to-think-by-hannah-barnes-review-what-went-wrong-at-gids
not as an excuse but as context, in the US there is significant culture in medicine around avoiding legal liability by overtreating or treating along specific pathways.
In socialised medicine countries I think this still happens but more along the lines of giving the patient what they want. This is part of why antibiotics have been overprescribed despited doctors knowing the risks. It's a weird contradiction, but in the US it's tied up with the agenda of insurance companies and what they will and won't cover as well.
Add to that, I don't think we can over-estimate the degree to which ideology is a factor here. Lots of theories on why people go along with it in the way they do, but I don't see it definitively explained. We just know it's there.
I've been thinking about this interview with Helen Joyce where she talks about how parents who have transed their kids have to stay ideologically committed to that for the rest of their lives, because they've caused so much harm to their child that they can't never undo.
https://youtu.be/ZG9_lcln7FU?t=4045
I wonfder if this is a factor for some medical people too.
I also think that there are doctors in it for the glory. The surgeons in particular who are honing their skills on the genitals and breasts of teenagers. Those ones can get fucked.
It is the children that I really get riled up about.
A girl child I know of had a phase of telling her mother "I a boy, I a boy". From this in the next few years up until now this child was subjected to all sorts of chemical interventions.
This idea, as a child, that you wish to be another thing is common and non worrying to most parents, kids grow out of it or parents/GP undertake watchful waiting.
Puberty for young people is a difficult time. We all know it. Psychologists and child development experts know it. Body changes, hormone fluctuations, social engagement, distancing from family, peer connections all have significant impacts on individuals. Many women will be able to relate how dealing with menstruation and body changes was often a cause for embarrassment or shame. The development of their bodies often attracting unwanted attention or comment – both from strangers and sometimes from previously trusted adults. Men have their own stories of this period. They are significantly different.
Self-exploration and understanding is a major part of that period. Fluidity in presentation, identification and connections is not only expected, but an aid in defining your adult self.
I grieve for the vulnerability of the young people caught up in this. The autistic, the non-regressive-stereotypical, the same-sex oriented, the ones with co-morbidities.
I hope that many have adopted an identity that required no interventions – and they will be able to walk away unscathed by a need for long-term medical treatment. For others, that have permanent outcomes to deal with, we need to demand high-quality, accessible, ongoing support.
I agree with all of this Molly.
Going down a path that is non reversible is tragic. It completely in my view blows out the concept of 'first do no harm'. This concept is not try to find the way then check that it is not harmful. That is of sizing up a child as a possibilty for intervention from the time the child walks through the door. It works in a reverse way.
I accept that Drs do have this expectation that they will do something to help us ie prescribe something…so much so that MOH/GPs were on a programme to deter antibiotics use where they were not needed.
You can see how young the girl child I was referring to by the language used 'I a boy, I a boy.' This was not a pre teen but rather perhaps a pre schooler.
This to me is a clear example of what might be behind some of this ideology.
It's those same old ideas / questions that can be asked when you want to find out who might be behind various things (at least to some extent) You can 'follow the money' and / or ask "who benefits?"
In this example the child doesn't benefit, the parents don't benefit (except maybe in their own minds in the short term). The beneficiary here is whoever produces, pushes and distributes the said chemicals, which would be everybody's friend, the pharmaceutical industry.
I see the Cass review has/is being covered here. Great.
Sorry I don't very the Standard much nowadays.
I will try and catch up with what has been and what hasn't been covered
Not everyone's so delighted with the report.
How do we regard The Professional Association for Transgender Health Aotearoa here on The Standard?
The points they have made in their first few paragraphs sound reasonable.
https://patha.nz/News/13341582
"The Professional Association for Transgender Health Aotearoa (PATHA) is disappointed to see the number of harmful recommendations made by the NHS-commissioned Cass Review, released yesterday in England. This review ignores the consensus of major medical bodies around the world and lacks relevance in an Aotearoa context."
"The final Cass Review did not include trans or non-binary experts or clinicians experienced in providing gender affirming care in its decision-making, conclusions, or findings. Instead, a number of people involved in the review and the advisory group previously advocated for bans on gender affirming care in the United States, and have promoted non-affirming ‘gender exploratory therapy’, which is considered a conversion practice."
It’s shocking to see such a significant inquiry into transgender health completely disregard the voices of transgender experts. It would be like reviewing women’s health with no women, or Māori health with no Māori involved.
it's a blatant lie.
From the Cass Review website,
https://cass.independent-review.uk/contribute-to-the-review/lived-experience-focus-groups/
The groups they engaged were
Might be time to review who you are putting your trust in Robert.
I'm not putting my trust in any group at this time, weka. Picking sides at this early stage of my learning seems irresponsible to me. I'll keep reading from the various camps and treat each issue with an open mind, as best I can.
you literally just said that PATHA's position sounded reasonable, and I pointed out they told a blatant lie, and you want to equivocate with me over trust?
It's not early. We have been talking about this on TS for years, and the debate has been raging internationally for longer. Children have been damaged because of organisations like PATHA. Please go read the Cass review post and inform yourself.
like I said to Phil yesterday, I have some sympathy for people trying to get their head around this complex situation. Hard this late in the game. But at some point the ignorance becomes wilful. You've been in these debates for some time, this isn't an early stage for you either.
"you literally just said that PATHA's position sounded reasonable, and I pointed out they told a blatant lie, and you want to equivocate with me over trust?"
I said it sounded reasonable. Are you expecting me to abandon my opinion after just one claim from you?
YOU may "have been talking about this on TS for years", but others might like to form their own views in light of the present situation with the release of a report and responses from various agencies appearing on the internet.
Is a case of your way, or the highway?
Or should we just rename The Standard, The Stroppery?
Does this mean that even lies are useful in forming an opinion?
Perhaps in a philosophical way they are as they can point towards a truth. To do this though we need to know the truth or the least worst way of looking at something.
We need to look at: are these orgs or people that can be trusted?
Trying to get a handle on this is laudable but perhaps late.
As a personal view the lack of a base of knowledge does not seemed to have stopped you from commenting on womens rights/trans views over all the years that these topics have been raised.
Having learned how to research it is usual to get the accepted view under your belt. Then branch out to see commentators.
I would start with the Cass Review, incl the terms of reference, then read and then look up every single footnote. You will then get a view on the sources that this establishment view found relevant and those that it did not. Then look at comentators such as BMJ etc. Once you have the prevailing views then branch out….widening the circle.
Cass set a high bar in not accepting views that did meet her threshhold of what constituted good research procedure-wise.
In doing research as a newcomer we can become confused if we look at commentary before we know what the issues are. It just become like a smorgasboard or a pick & mix. Just a gigantic mush
This is a concept that should be familar across many spheres even including art. We learn all the rules about mark marking in visual art before we have the competence to break them. If we do this before having a deep understanding of the 'rules' our art is often amateurish and people just think we don't 'know' about making art
"Does this mean that even lies are useful in forming an opinion?"
I commented "sounded reasonable" – it did, in my opinion.
weka claimed "lies". I don't know if weka was correct in their claim; they provided bullet points in support.
I've reserved my judgement in anticipation of more evidence. I reckon that's reasonable.
"Having learned how to research it is usual to get the accepted view under your belt. Then branch out to see commentators."
I'm well aware that this is the view shared here, however, I liken commenting on this issue to other issues, especially those that interest me the most; soil health, for example. If a commenter said something naive about that topic, I'd be pleased enough that they cared to think about it, rather than demand they do their homework. Even if they continued to question the need for a living soil, or whatever, I'd think they were engaging and potentially turning over rocks that might otherwise have disappeared from view. I'm not claiming to do that btw – best to make every nuance of my comment crystal clear for fear of being accused of opacity 🙂
Also (not only but) if a commenter with my interest in lefty issues wasn't able to comment on this particular topic; women's rights/trans, there'd be bugger-all else to talk about, bar WWIII.
No Robert, I provided the standard TS level of evidence: my explanation, some supporting quotes and a link to back up the claim.
This is where the wilful ignorance bit comes in. If you won't inform yourself even when the information is laid out in front of you, that's one thing. But when you then misrepresent the nature of that information, that is a problem for the rest of us.
You have missed my point. If you actually did know and read the Cass Review in depth you wouldn't actually be ascribing 'reasonableness' to the PATHA link.
As a learner you'd be asking how is it that this group seems not to believe the Cass Review? Seeking guidance that may not have been apparent to you as a learner.
You came out as though it may be a truth or at least 'reasonable' which had you read and inwardly digested Cass you would not have. The review is not that difficult to understand.
A more advanced learner might be carefully reading but probably coming to the Mandy Rice-Davies conclusion
"Well they would say that wouldn't they?'
You haven't commented on how you were able to comment on many of the Women's rights/trans posts here over the years, with no tentativeness or wish for learning, without this background that you are reading in the Cass Review?
You have posited views many, many times that have involved many of us in getting material or expressing views only to find now that in fact actually you hadn't read up, or know the issues. To say it feels like somewhat of a betrayal to have been misled like this is an understatement.
"This is a concept that should be familar across many spheres even including art. We learn all the rules about mark marking in visual art before we have the competence to break them. If we do this before having a deep understanding of the 'rules' our art is often amateurish and people just think we don't 'know' about making art"
Children then, cannot be artists until they have been taught the rules of art?
Picasso famously described his anguish at having to unlearn his teachings in order to draw like a child again.
You may be interested too, in The Fool card from the tarot deck, and the trickster figure from so many different indigenous cultural story-telling traditions, including and especially our own Māui tiki tiki a Taranga.
Note: I'm NOT classifying myself thus.
Robert I used art as an example to show how this step by step reading/learning goes. I have a degree in fine art and learning art is somewhat of a topic in the art world with some saying you have to be a natural at art to learn art and others saying that art, like any other discipline can reveal itself by step by step learning. Of course there are exceptions of course there are the naive artists.
Naive artists though are few. Talented people who have a possible head start in eye hand coordination are many and can be taught further.
Of more wonder is the story I heard from a teacher who believed children can be taught and recognise what we believe might be advanced concepts. He taught 5-7 year olds how to do perspective, at an adult level with looking at a mathematical approach, including infinity.
He said children knew that they were not drawing how their eyes saw the world. They were able to relate to what was being taught and were joyous at the idea of being able to show walls etc instead of a flat surface.
In general when researching step by step works best…..working out from a known source to wider views, practices.
I think this indicates that you don't have the knowledge from Cass Review under your belt. If you had you would not be saying phrases like 'one claim from you.' You would have known that what PATHA was saying did not line up with what the Cass Review had said. You might even have been able to utter/think the famous Mandy Rice-Davies phrase 'well they would say that wouldn't they?"
No. If I were merely making a claim I would expect people to scroll on by.
Instead, I spent a five days reading the various commentaries on the Cass report before I put up a whole post. That post includes references that people who want to inform themselves can read.
I also addressed Phil's inane comments specifically because I had done all that reading and knew he didn't know what he was talking about. He was was someone making a casual claim and he was just flat out wrong.
This morning I responded to your own claim of 'sounds reasonable' with,
Others have also provided commentary on this. We are not the ones making 'just one claim'.
I have seen you in conversations like this over time, and it's always the same. You can take any position you like, but you cannot on TS not expect to be criticised for that position.
Call TS whatever you like, but when any regular here puts up highly misleading commentary, there will be pushback, and if they don't acknowledge the mistake, then there is likely to be comment on that too. Stroppery or robust debate, we are one of the few places online that holds a standard of truth. It takes work to do that, which is why some of us take a very dim view of lies and obfuscation on important political topics. If you think I am out of line here, you can look at how lprent deals with such comments on other topics.
If you don't believe me about the CR then make an actual argument backed up by something real, not some useless propaganda talking points from an organisation that itself has been critiqued by Cass and where those talking points have already been roundly criticised.
Oh, you mean like that time Stats NZ decided to prioritise gender identity data over biological sex across its organisation and consulted with rainbow groups but didn't talk to any women's groups?
"Oh, you mean like that time Stats NZ decided to …"
Nope. I didn't mean that.
This is not explained. How? Why have we got 10 times the numbers on irreversible drugs than other western countries?
As it is from a NZ body I am sure they will recognise the NZ vernacular/meaning when I respond by saying
'Yeah right'
in tones of the utmost sarcasm
that was one of the more risible parts of PATHA's response. The Cass review was for NHS England. It took into account international research, but it's purpose was UK focused.
But imagine if drugs and surgeries in other areas of medicine were being critiqued internationally and a group said, oh that doesn't apply to NZ.
PATHA are sounding a tad pre-emptively defensive there 😉
Robert, the recently leaked 'WPATH' files reveal (amongst other things) widespread medical malpractice on children.
Here's a link to the leaked files:
https://www.cga.ct.gov/2024/gaedata/TMY/2024SJ-00004-R000318-Gerber,%20M-Opposes-TMY.PDF
PATHA NZ guidelines for gender affirming health care, etc come directly from WPATH.