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Daily review 20/08/2020

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, August 20th, 2020 - 89 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

89 comments on “Daily review 20/08/2020 ”

  1. Muttonbird 1

    There's plenty wrong with Reti's border policy:

    A negative test days before flying is no guarantee of being uninfected on arrival. So where is the extra security there?

    The negative test requirement adds burden to lower income people and is either not possible in some countries, or it is expensive. This is the Nats through and through. If you're not wealthy then we don't want you back.

    Refusing entry to people who have Covid-19 demonises them. All people with Covid 19 are 'dangerous' in Reti's eyes. The compassionate thing is to repeat, “people aren't the problem, the virus is”. No surprise National missed this crucial point.

    'One hour wait for testing' is a ridiculous fast-food meme which is unlikely to be achieved in surge situations of which there would be many until any National/ACT government.


    • indiana 1.1

      How is the current requirement for people to pay for their 14 day mandatory quarantine working out for low income returnees? Is that cheaper than the current free Covid test people can get now?

      • Muttonbird 1.1.1

        Hey moron. First time returnees are not charged.

        This is the kind of thing that gets lost with the stupid right and they will try to push falsehoods.

        Unbelievably, it is still necessary to stand up to this rampant idiocy whenever it appears.

  2. Muttonbird 2

    Venezuela is the right wing's favourite whipping boy.

    This article is paywalled by our own right wing press so I can't read it, but the similarities between Venezuela's policy of criminalising Covid-19 suffers, and the National party's policy of denying entry to Covid-19 sufferers are hard to ignore.


  3. anker 3

    National's border policy…………a relative of mine is flying back from the UK in November. They have been told by the airline they have to have a covid test 4 days before travel……………..Its a good idea as a bit of protection but we all know that there are false negatives, that what happens in the three days between flying and the test? And also it seems likely some people are picking up the virus in transit…………So not much use. would still have to quarantine etc, otherwise risk quite high

    • Pat 3.1

      Indeed….looks like more pointless bureaucracy…something National constantly rail against

    • ScottGN 3.2

      I think both Emirates and Etihad both have that requirement if you are transiting through their hubs.

    • greywarshark 3.3

      The airline wants to reduce risk. It is just trying to be practical and care for its passengers and staff.

  4. Muttonbird 4

    Great to see Heather Duplicity-Allan finally come around to the idea that the border and its integrity is critical to the way New Zealand navigates Covid-19.

    Not weeks ago she was criticising the government for not creating a travel bubble with the Cook Islands. She will also have been keen on relaxing restrictions for international students, and for wealthy Americans to build bunkers. Her own sugar-daddy husband told us the government's warnings about resurgence were purely political.

    I guess for Heather epiphanies come fast and cheap. Let us pray she has a few more.


    • In Vino 4.1

      Heather does not strike me as the most aware of people… Judith C has A similar quality, to my mind. Why else would she make such a preposterously silly suggestion, fatuously thinking that the majority of folks will agree…

      Already, every critcism I have seen pointing out all the blatantly obvious failings of her policy read far better than her vacuous justification.

      I think the Nats will have to quietly drop this idea. Now that the election date is another month away, they also have the possibility of not-so-quietly dropping Judith herself.

      How many of them will be bright enough to seize the opportunity?

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1

        Already, every critcism I have seen pointing out all the blatantly obvious failings of her policy read far better than her vacuous justification.

        I wonder if this pandemic is going to wake people up to the fact that National doesn't really do policy – that what they do is uncosted, untested, and uncontestable reckons.

  5. RosieLee 5

    I am in a quandary. My 4 yr old phone, which does everything I want it to, is rated as too old to take the covid tracing app. Do I now have to spend mega bucks on a new phone in order to be a responsible citizen? Maybe this is part of the reason why the uptake of the app is low. It's not lack of civic duty.

    • McFlock 5.1

      keep a log of where you go and use sign-in sheets where possible.

      It's not our fault the default for the tech industry is "people who can buy new phones every year".

      if your phone does the net, you can log your activity manually at https://tracing.covid19.govt.nz

      • weka 5.1.1

        it's becoming a problem, I don't get the civil defence warnings either. My phone is starting to not work for some websites too. It's 6 years old, nothing wrong with it other than Apple don't update the OS and thus it's not supported by developers.

        None of which would bother me except I'm not that confident that society and its systems is not going to centre itself around late model phones. I can't tell if the CD siren thing is an issue or not, and I shouldn't even have to be thinking about that.

        • McFlock

          The CD thing doesn't worry me so much – chances are we know someone who will get it and be all "wtf", or we'd notice the traffic heading for the hills.

          But the covid tracer is a bit worse. Either make a single version that's retro-compatible, or do a version for the last ten year's or so of OS. And then there's the entire expectation that everyone has a phone of some sort anyway.

          The economic demographic most likely to have incompatible phones quite possibly overlaps the demographic most likely to spend most of their time working all hours for f-all pay, getting their roster texted to them because they're casualised disposable. But they're also the ones most likely to still be having contacts when everyone else is zoom-working from home.

          • weka

            The CD thing doesn't worry me so much – chances are we know someone who will get it and be all "wtf", or we'd notice the traffic heading for the hills.

            She'll be right Trev, lol.

            It's more that I don't know if CD are relying on the phones and not focusing on the other systems now. I can't tell if we even still have sirens. That your answer didn't mention them suggests I'm not alone in that. Bad luck for people that live on their own I guess or happen to be around people with old phones. Hmm I wonder who that will affect most.

            • gsays

              I caught the tail end of a conversation on RNZ about a lanyard with a card on it. I assume this registers via Bluetooth or some other witchcraft and automatically logs yr movements.

              I am having similar issues as my Huawei doesn't support the app.

              • weka

                the privacy issues never got addressed adequately for me (app or card).

                • gsays

                  I missed where they were addressing the privacy/data side of things.

                  I have been reflecting on my own shift in attitudes over the last few years. 5 years ago I would have agreed with you. Now, not so much.

                  Not saying your concerns are unfounded or wanting to argue with you. I see it as a good solution for the 'electronically impaired' or the elderly who can get a bit flustered with these new processes.

                  • weka

                    Before they lost the last election National were already rolling out major plans to remove privacy rights in NZ (they were intending to reform our privacy laws), and they started with beneficiaries and low income people. As part of the beneficiary class, I take that very seriously. Until National change how they operate, and/or the left parties put some major Tory-proofed protections in, then *everything that involves tech and privacy should be viewed through the lens of what will National do? It's too hard to claw back rights after National destroys them.

                    Less of an issue, but still an issue, is I don't particularly trust government ICT security given the number of fails we've had.

          • weka

            Future-proofing IT seems like a no brainer, but not many people seem to be thinking about it. Maybe there's a niche there for some of the geeky people.

            Would love to know if it's a tech issue, a cultural issue or a money one. How hard would it be to have produced a basic app that worked on all phones?

            • Incognito

              Not everybody’s got a phone.

              • woodart

                some of us still have a phone tied to the wall.

                • Incognito

                  Point taken 🙂

                  I should have qualified it as meaning mobile phone.

                  • In Vino

                    I have an iphone 5c. It said it needed some funny-numbered thing to download the Govt Covid tracker. I gave up. Unless I am working, I leave the thing next to my bed for the entire day anyway.

                    I await a better system, like that card, which I would happily take with me.

                    • Incognito

                      I’ll wait for National to microchip me when they get back in power 😉

                      I’ve very little understanding of it but the CovidCard seems like something that could work well, at least for me.

              • weka

                quite. Emergency systems shouldn't be so dependent on a small thing.

            • McFlock

              Not so much "future proofing" as "past proofing".

              The further back you want to take it, the more difficult it can be.

              An app programmer would be able to comment about how far off the track I am, but apps aren't generally typed linearly in one big file. The operating system isn't just a translator between the app and the transistors on the chips, it has libraries of subroutines that apps can call. They all operate the same way across different manufacturers, and they save a LOT of programming time. But each new edition of an operating system introduces new subroutines, so you need to write ones that work for older systems.

              But also the other issue is that new editions also deprecate inefficient or insecure subroutines, so they no longer work on newer versions. It can be difficult to program to suit an old version and expect it to work on newer systems. It needs to be as simple as possible, which might reduce functionality that saves power or is needed for a covid tracer.

              There would eventually be a hard line where it goes to before there was cross-company standards and even getting equivalent-generation phones to work would be massively difficult.

              But some location apps were around in Android 3 or earlier, so the tech would seem to be feasible for that level. I suspect they took an industry estimate and figured "95% is good enough", but it isn't. We need everyone who can to do, to make up for those who can't or won't.

              • weka

                tbh, I never sorted out the privacy issues, so I'm not even sure I would use it if I could. The CD one irks though.

                How much of the problems with past proofing are a trade off to get more and new exiting developments. I'm guessing in a sane world the balance would sit somewhere else.

                • McFlock

                  A lot of it's legitimate – anyone going to a website that hasn't been updated in 20 years can see that.

                  And once someone finds a security hole in a subroutine, it needs to go.

                  I suspect some apps use only later generation versions to target their customers, too. They don't necessarily want late adopters, either because their product doesn't warrant close examination or because they don't want broke people skewing their data.

                  Like uber and lime are too modern for my phone. But my banking app works fine and google maps does too (if slow). So it's not impossible to write it for me, but they probably figure someone with a phone >3years old is unlikely to be inclined or have the credit rating to use their service – and my using it might make their service look bad, anyway.

                  There was also at least one phone manufacturer caught issuing software updates that demonstrably slowed their phones, just before their nextgen phones hit the shelves. Planned obsolescence has been replaced by obsolescence-on-command.

                  • lprent

                    My partner’s iPhone 7 with 128Gb of storage is just starting to do the usual Apple death – the available RAM is a running short doing routine tasks. This is pretty much the usual pattern. It has 2Gb RAM and it has been interesting watching the memory bloat creep up. The support with either stop for it this September or next year in the usual fashion.

                    Since this is the third iPhone that she has had that has died or started dying in the same manner (iPhone 3G, iPhone 5(?), and iPhone 7) I’m hoping she is going to do what I did after the 3G and do the switch to a large capacity android.

                    I have given up on Apple multiple times now. Writing code for the bloody horrible iOS made it lose the sheen of the front-end interface for me. Paying for excessive annual developer licenses and the equipment upgrades doesn’t help either. But the real kicker is the planned obsolescence in their APIs which essentially makes most code bases using Apple systems obsolete within a few years and almost invariably inside a decade.

                    At least windows provides some strong backwards compatibility and open development tools.

                    But mostly I do open source Linux wherever possible and Android kotlin/NDK if I need to work on mobiles.

        • greywarshark

          You have not the right phone so therefore you can't reguster as a citizen and you must then be treated as an alien. Is that how it will be?

          The PTB did that when we first got computers, and wiped some people out of existence causing them great hardship. Some were registered as dead, and it was no use saying it's me here are my docs. NZ Post and others have established Real Me presumably to prevent that happening. But I do not like the tech takeover, I do not like it at all.

          • weka

            I won't be using Real Me as long as we have a Labour and a National that treat beneficiaries as second class citizens. Nat's plans around data are particularly scary.

            • greywarshark

              Uh well that's out for me. I don't want to lay down in the road and let technology run over me – decision it is more efficient in fuel to run over this person and drag them away, than to stop and swerve round. Don't laugh anybody, we already have gummint departments thinking like that about beneficiaries, you might have need but can't get anything done while you can still struggle to your feet.

        • The Al1en

          I hear how your phone won't work, but there is a civil defence alert compatible phone list to check. Mine doesn't work either.


      • Anne 5.1.2

        keep a log of where you go and use sign-in sheets where possible.

        Sound advice.

        I am becoming increasingly concerned that a whole generation of young people are growing up reliant on bits of plastic technology to do all their thinking and communicating for them.

        Once upon a time there were no cell phones and people relied on their own sensibilities when it came to solving problems and keeping themselves and others safe from harm. I suspect we are creating generations of young people who will grow up having no idea how to do that for themselves.

        This is no reflection on Rosielee who obviously can think for herself, but its something I feel strongly about. My young relatives frequently get a 'sermon' on the subject from me although I fear they take no notice. 🙁

        • McFlock

          There's a joke that years ago we figured folks would make better decisions if they had more information, but now they have all human information available at their fingertips and we're more stupid than ever.

          But I'm not so sure about that. The stupid is just louder, but young 'uns seem about the same – even smarter, maybe.

          • Andre

            Dunno about that.

            When it comes to adrenaline sports, you get to see everything that could go wrong, in endless slo-mo detail. No imagination needed for that "is this really a good idea?" moment. But the young'uns are doing shit many levels up from anything we were doing back when I wasn't far from being near the top of one of those sports.

            • McFlock

              Yeah, but that's the selected extreme population. Not sure base jumpers are pushing the envelope any further than the wing-walkers of the 1920s.

              But the day to day stupidity seems about the same. Uni student disorder was getting out of hand about 15 years ago, but there were some decent riots 15 years before that, and skyrocket wars and burned fences in the 80s. If anything the student parties are a bit less hazardous than the drinking horns from back in the day.

              My niece's cohort seems pretty sensible – still dramas, but fewer hospital admissions lol

              So I can't fault 'em too much where I am, anyway. We still have hoons and wannabe thugs and drunken dickheads who think daddy's wallet acts as a force-field against a broken jaw, but not any worse than back in my day.

          • Draco T Bastard

            The problem isn't that we have all the information available but that all the stupid things that are just plain wrong are also available and many people only accept what they believe as factual anyway.

        • ScottGN

          Jeez. Have I wandered into teatime at the old folks home…?

          • greywarshark

            Yeah, we can't stand that new-fangled rock'n'roll either.

          • Anne


            But to give you an idea what I mean…

            25 years ago it was part of my duties in a particular government agency to train new recruits how to put their newly acquired knowledge into practice. It included making simple calculations in one's head. Not one of them could do it without a calculator. In the end I made them put their calculators away and learn how to work it out for themselves.

            • McFlock

              Why? Calculators/computers are quicker, and if the calculations are that important, there'll be an additional checking process anyway.

              I can't claim any ability to do long division in my head. But I read a paper from the 1950s that took 105 person-years of collation and analysis to produce. I can literally replicate updated results of that information within half an hour.

              We develop the skillsets we need, and we let the unneeded ones become boutique curiosities.

          • Incognito

            Don’t be an age-ist 😉

      • RosieLee 5.1.3

        Thanks for that. Will try it.

        [Fixed typo in user name]

    • Barfly 5.2

      house brand phones are reasonably powerful , large and cheap I suggest checking them last time I bought one was a vodafone with a 5" screen about 3-4 years ago cost $100

    • weka 5.3

      mine is too old too. I use a manual system and my eftpos transactions.

      • RosieLee 5.3.1

        Yes. That's what i do already. I'm old but tech savvy and equipped so i thought the app was a great idea. but i am not buying a new phone.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Have you tried updating your phones operating system?

          The app requires Android 6.0 or OS11.

          A phone that old may require you to manually do it (if it can do it at all). My phone was released in 2014 and can only update to Android 7.1.1

          • McFlock

            If I'm not going to buy a new phone and transfer all my apps & shit, I'm definitely not going spend even more time seeing if I can root my phone without trashing all my apps and shit.

            Looking online, the thing’s only 5 years old and already secondhand in that time lol. Regardless of generation of OS, it shouldn’t be so obsolete.

            • Draco T Bastard

              I'm definitely not going spend even more time seeing if I can root my phone without trashing all my apps and shit.

              Not talking about putting in after market OS. Just seeing if it can be updated to a later version. My phone came out standard with Android 5 but its now running 7.1.1 but I had to tell it to update. It wouldn't do it automatically because it did a full reset of the data.

              All your apps can be reinstalled and you should have backups of data.

              Looking online, the thing’s only 5 years old and already secondhand in that time lol.

              Tech changes and moves on but the big one for me is the security vulnerabilities in an old OS that are no longer being fixed.

              • McFlock

                no, it can't be updated, and reinstalling all the apps would be bloody annoying.

              • greywarshark

                That confirms to me that this is all a big con, the obsolescence thing, a forced sale of device or you will lose out on communication. To put it crudely the techs have got us by the short and curlies.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  So, you would prefer to have you as an open book for the criminals?

                  The techs and the upgrades go a long way to thwarting them from doing so. To get those benefits does require you to upgrade though.

                  • McFlock

                    My bank doesn't think I'm an open book to cybercriminals.

                    What do the covid app designers know that my bank app designers don't?

                    • Draco T Bastard


                      Really, the phone has one OS that applies across many makes and models. It's not specifically customised for you – its for everyone which means that each OS has every protection it can built in whether you think you want it or not. The fact that you obviously think that you don't probably does mean that you're an open book to the cyber criminals.

                      That software needs processing power and so, as the OS develops, so to does the hardware. You can't, effectively, run a new OS on old hardware.

                    • lprent []

                      The relationship between hardware and software is pretty arbitrary. The most obvious example is Linux. I just upgraded my old Sony laptop circa 2009 to kubuntu 20.04. No problems. No particular loss of speed since I first dropped ubuntu on in 2009.

                      I mowtly write code, read email, and read the net on it. Nothing fancy. Had a external USB wifi as that chip failed on the board.

                      But it had a full HD screen on it when I got it and 3GB Ram. Replaced the hdd with a ssd.

                      Still using both the origonal lithium batteries and they still last for about 3 hours.

                      The software issues on cell phones are mostly and issue with design and marketing.

                    • McFlock

                      I know they're not tailored for me.

                      And yes, I've seen some apps stop working after they got "updated" to newer OS.

                      But all major banks in NZ seem to still be happy giving their customers apps that work on my OS. So they don't think I'm wide open to cyber criminals, otherwise they'd have gone the way of… the wikipedia app (obviously in need of higher security than banking apps, that).

                      Now, my suspicion is that the banks know their apps are secure enough on an older OS, and because it helps them keep customers they put the work into updating their apps in such a way to keep them working for their customers. Whereas it's in the interests of other apps to simply ignore compatibility issues with older phones because of cost, and because the market information apps gather is most valuable for data gathered on people who are early/midlevel adopters.

                      But you can always explain why a bank will leave customers wide open to cyber criminals while the wikipedia app developers are so much more cautious.

    • Gabby 5.4

      Take a pic wherever you go, somebody suggested.

    • xanthe 5.5

      you could just photograph the qr code or just the shop frontage photo metadata will give time

      no alerts but simple

  6. ScottGN 6

    Professor Rod Jackson on Radio NZ this afternoon made the observation that the best takeout from National’s border policy release today is that finally we’ve got broad consensus across the political spectrum that what we are doing is the right thing to do. All the gang that have been advocating open borders and open slather have effectively been sidelined. It’s only taken 6 months!

    • Muttonbird 6.1

      +1. See my post at 4.

      Finally the opposition has come around. Only took a second outbreak to do it…

      • ScottGN 6.1.1

        Yeah just saw that. I was thinking more of Thornley and the Plan B gang. And the Unis. National have quietly dropped their plan to let tertiary education providers manage quarantine for international students.

        • greywarshark

          Unis will have to attend closely to students' pastoral needs and not have any dying unnoticed, alone. Well that was Canterbury and perhaps all of them have fallen for factory education – have you caught up with Chch's latest distasteful disaster? I think that should be enough to have his contract broken.

          (Guess where he comes from – Paranoia Central.)

          Senior lecturer in chemical engineering Luke Schneider posted answers suggesting that beneficiaries should commit suicide, that he would “shoot to kill” looters in a riot to protect private property and that a virus which killed “the lowest IQ people” would help get back a “sustainable planet”.

          The comments were among about 600 posted by Schneider to American question-and-answer website Quora, which lists Schneiders full name, job title and where he studied in the United States.
          One answer from a question about social security wealth redistribution on August 11, read: “If you can’t survive without the largess of others, it’s your patriotic duty to commit suicide”. ..

          Schneider’s LinkedIn profile says he was educated at South Florida and Princeton universities in the United States, and has worked in both the Unites[d] States and New Zealand.

          Also late last year there was this:
          Oct//19 https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/116288238/law-lecturer-outs-himself-as-subject-of-unjustified-harassment-complaint

    • Pat 6.2

      Not all….theres still a vocal and enabled minority pushing a different agenda….and National's position is loose enough to continue to support that agenda

      • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1

        Yep. If National gets power expect the borders to be open within 6 months and a massive surge of the pandemic in NZ within 6 months of that.

  7. ScottGN 7

    Lisa’s giving Judith a hard time on Checkpoint. “How are you going to deliver this, you couldn't even build the bridges in Northland!” Ouch!

  8. ScottGN 8

    Judith also said that if there was Bill of Rights implications for the pre-travel Covid testing she would legislate to override it ‘within the first hundred days’. So there you go April at the very earliest.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 8.1

      Hopefully at least April 2024

    • Devo 8.2

      It won't negate the need for 14 day quarantine and day 3 and 12 testing, while creating headaches for kiwis in countries where test results can take over a week to come back, or where limited test stocks are reserved for symptomatic people only. So then the question is why?

      Basically, National like to have the appearance of being tough on stuff by taking measures that don't make any difference. You could even call it virtue signalling LOL

  9. ScottGN 9

    This is great. The PM in her element with people. But also the way the the PMO is cleverly contrasting the PM with the Leader of The Opposition. Sheer brainpower.


  10. I Feel Love 10


    GOnna be interesting to see the mental gymnastics over the freedom loving Nat supporters supporting this, if Collins doesn't like a law she will just change it.

    • I Feel Love 10.1

      It's quite a slippery slope isn't it? Why not test for any infectious disease? A eugenics wet dream.

      • Incognito 10.1.1

        Carrying an infectious disease and eugenics are unrelated AFAIK but I love to be educated.

        • McFlock

          not sure "eugenics" is the right word, but I'm sure someone could figure out a way to exclude or alienate groups they don't like. Having about fifty diseases to make the testing costs prohibitive, for example, or targeting diseases common in potus' s-hole countries even if we don't have effective vectors for those diseases here.

          Even if they keep "infectious" in the legislation.

          I find myself double-thinking quite a few reasonable or harmless ideas with "now, what if Judith Collins were in charge of this policy?"

  11. Muttonbird 11

    Apparently in Taiwan new arrivals can choose to isolate in hotels, Air BnBs, or private homes but they are monitored by cell phone.

    Student politician, David Seymour, wants to do the same thing here.

    Curious he's picked Taiwan as a model. It is a country living under extreme paranoia and has done for several decades. A country pre-loaded for isolation, its citizens have been told to distrust anyone since birth in case they are infiltrated. A country which cannot get legitimacy from the West for fear of repercussion from China via a cutting off of cheap and under represented labour which makes the West’s 1%, and 10% so rich.

    David Seymour also wants to re-open The Rock to house his scheme's rule breakers. Me-thinks another riot wouldn't be far behind that decision.

    Question: Would New Zealand be better off without student politician, David Seymour?

    Answer: Computer says yes.


    • Ad 13.1

      If the next government hasn't figured out how to corral state entities like NZSuper to stop actively undermining NZTA, then they just don't have the muscle for the job to happen.

      Twyford expressing "preferences" at this point in the election cycle has far less credence than when he announced the same thing three years ago at the same time.

      Woods, Simpson and Roche are busy with other stuff. Time for a Cabinet with a really powerful integrated infrastructure portfolio set.

      • greywarshark 13.1.1

        Juli Ann Genter sounds confident in that stuff link. What about heavy goods? Is there something left in the kitty and space on the ground to ensure a good run for that to where it should deliver? Getting people round, getting goods around, they are both important.

        Surface light rail on the Dominion Rd route will be more accessible, and quicker and cheaper to put in place. That means more money to invest in more rapid transit lines around Auckland, like rail to the North Shore and northwest,” Genter said.

        She said her party was the party to trust when it comes to transport infrastructure. “The Green Party has a history of campaigning for successful public transport projects well before other parties pick them up, like the Northern Busway, electrification of Auckland’s rail network, and the CRL [City Rail Link],” Genter said.

        “The Greens are the party people can trust to deliver when it comes to excellent public transport.”

        • Ad

          Kiwirail is the key to that.

          We are now in construction for Auckland's Third Main line. Also electrification of Papakura to Pukekohe is underway, which is close to completing full electrification from Auckland to Hamilton to Wellington. That's also the secret to Kiwirail getting a fully electrified fleet for the North Island.

          Most of the multiple billions Kiwirail are getting this term have come through New Zealand First cabinet advocacy at the Budget table.

          • greywarshark

            That would be a big up for NZFirst, that allows them to retire with good wishes and a gold watch, or similar.

  12. Ad 14

    I'm guessing minimal poll bump for the Democrats after that Convention.

    Which would be a first.

  13. Peter 15

    Modular houses built in China because they're much cheaper to built there. Fancy that eh. We can scrap our home building industry and just import houses. Be terrible if we export logs there to have them turned into houses and returned here mind you. We could probably bring in workers from offshore to assemble and finish them though. Long hours, low wages, imagine the money someone could make.


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