Daily review 21/06/2021

33 comments on “Daily review 21/06/2021 ”

• Comments are now closed

1. Rosemary McDonald 1

   21 June 2021 at 5:44 pm

   It is beyond reason that any government, let alone one that purports to having the Wellbeing of it's citizens at heart, would sanction the mass use of an extremely experimental on children.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300338584/covid19-pfizer-vaccine-approved-for-use-in-12-to-15yearolds-in-new-zealand

   This is obscene. There are no long term safety studies on these mRNA vaccines and none of us have any idea of what downstream adverse effects there may be. Why on earth would we run the risk of harming our children when it is completely unnecessary?

   Children are at no risk from Covid and are of little risk to adults in terms of transmission.

   Have these psychopaths not heard f the Precautionary Principal?
   • alwyn 1.1

     21 June 2021 at 6:58 pm

     I wouldn't bother to much.

     Given that they can't even vaccinate the frontline workers, much less the Group2s, or the Group 3s, and even less the Group 4s I don't think that there is any chance at all that they are going to get around to anyone in this age group.
     • Muttonbird 1.1.1

       21 June 2021 at 7:10 pm

       I really don't see what issue you have with the vaccine program. We live in the safest country in the world. We don't need an emergency fast-tracking of the vaccine. The government has always been cautious about timeframe knowing that supplies were not reliable. It was only when the rabid right started using the rollout for political purposes that the government felt obliged to reluctantly put some dates on it.

       Our vaccine strategy is a function of our Covid resilience, ie, very very resilient.

       Don't panic, alwyn.
       • alwyn 1.1.1.1

         21 June 2021 at 8:38 pm

         "emergency fast tracking"?

         We would appear to be last in the OECD and pretty well last in the developed world. So no we really aren't doing very much are we.

         I hope opening things up so that Air Crew returning to New Zealand without having to isolate at all doesn't blow up in our faces. That is what kicked of the outbreak in Taiwan wasn't it? And it could very easily happen here. Still, the PM and a bunch of other Ministers have been vaccinated so they should be OK.

         As for "knowing supplies were not reliable". Where did you get that from? After all we were told that we were at the front of the queue and they had ordered supplies to treat everyone. Surely you aren't going to admit they were lying to us?
         • Drowsy M. Kram 1.1.1.1.1

           21 June 2021 at 9:29 pm

           Most of those finding anything they can to bitch about re vaccinations should look at themselves in the mirror and wonder that in the stuff-up, the oversight, the schemozzle, the disaster, at least one prick made it through.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2

     21 June 2021 at 9:26 pm

     Agreed Rosemary, the case for vaccinating healthy young children against COVID-19 is weak, at least until all adult NZers who choose to be vaccinated have had their jabs.

     Think Twice Before Giving the COVID Vax to Healthy Kids
     — Based on the data to date, there's no compelling case for it right now

     …the primary reason to give a healthy child the vaccine may not be to save their life, it's to prevent the multisystem inflammatory syndrome (MIS-C), which can be painful and have long-term health sequelae. According to the CDC, there have been 4,018 cases of MIS-C after COVID-19 with the average age being 9 years old. A total of 36 children died. Cases of MIS-C were heavily skewed toward minority children (62% were Hispanic/Latino or Black), likely due to the disproportionate rates of childhood obesity and chronic conditions in these populations. This finding again supports COVID-19 vaccination in any child with a medical condition, including being overweight.
     …
     In my opinion, the COVID-19 vaccine makes sense for any child who is overweight or has a pre-existing condition. It also may make sense for a teenager given their closer physiologic similarity to adults and the fact that historically, vaccines safe in adults have been safe in kids when dosed appropriately. But given the case-report level rarity of a healthy child dying of COVID-19, I would not recommend a two-dose vaccine regimen for a healthy child ages 0 to 12 years until we have more data. Each parent will have to assess their own child's individual risk, but in my opinion, the case to vaccinate young healthy kids is not compelling right now.

     Otoh, a case for vaccinating children as soon as the more at-risk age cohorts have been vaccinated can still be made, and it is also a good one, imho.

     Ruth Lindo MD MPH FAAP
     June 10, 2021
     I must admit to finding this article very shocking. It seems evident to me that the epidemic will never end until the overwhelming majority of the population has been immunized. If we do not immunize children, even if we were to assume that it is not as deadly in children as it is in adults, the epidemic will continue forever. The children will act as vectors and as a reservoir [for mutation and further transmission.] How long should this epidemic continue? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Exactly what do you have in mind as the end point? I for one would like to see the epidemic end. There is no conceivable scenario where the epidemic will end unless the children are also immunized.

     First Grader in Minn. Dies of COVID Complications
     While COVID-related deaths in children are rare, they can occur even in otherwise healthy children," the statement reads, adding that this death marks the third COVID-19 death of a child under the age of 18 in Minnesota.

     First Pediatric COVID-19 Related Death in Mesa County
   • Incognito 1.3

     21 June 2021 at 10:41 pm

     When a vaccine is at the “extremely experimental” stage, it is being experimented on and with in the lab. It then passes through to the next stage, which is animal testing, i.e. mice and macaques in the case of the now-approved Pfizer vaccine.

     https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-data-preclinical-studies-mrna

     The next stage, actually more of a very steep hurdle, is safety trials in humans. Only when all these stages have been passed and activity/efficacy in large trials has been established will it be approved. After approval and release there is ongoing monitoring with stringent reporting requirements.

     In and for Aotearoa-New Zealand the responsible agency is MEDSAFE, which approved the Pfizer vaccine with a large number of mainly reporting conditions.

     https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/status-of-applications.asp
     • Rosemary McDonald 1.3.1

       21 June 2021 at 11:15 pm

       Show me the long term safety studies into the Pfizer vaccine.

       You can't, because there are none.

       https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/02/19/969143015/long-term-studies-of-covid-19-vaccines-hurt-by-placebo-recipients-getting-immuni

       To my knowledge there were no animal trials.

       This is the first time mRNA technology has been used on humans in a mass vaccination program and there are no data supporting a claim of 'no long term adverse effects'. Approximately 6 months into the mass roll out doth not a long term trial make.

       Last time I checked, CARMs safety monitoring results were a month behind.

       And this shit certainly doesn't bolster faith in the impartiality of the investigations into post Covid vaccine deaths.

       Both deaths have been reported to the Centre for Adverse Reactions Monitoring.

       The process includes Medsafe "closely" monitoring all reports.

       Details of when the duo where given the Covid-19 vaccine were not yet known. That includes the timing of their death after being vaccinated.

       She was "not at all" worried by tonight's news, vaccinologist Helen Petousis-Harris said.

       "People need to understand that we're going to see lots of events occur after people have the jab."

       That's because around 80, mostly elderly, people died in New Zealand every day.

       She didn't have all the details about the deaths of the two people in their 80s, but "I know enough to know they are not in any way related to the vaccine".

       I have absolutely no issue with adults getting the vaccine if that is their wish. Providing they are given all the information so they can make an informed choice and the vaccines are administered by professionals who can fully address any concerns, the keen continue clambering over one another for the privilege of rolling up their sleeves and bearing their biceps. (I'd strongly recommend the vaccinator aspirate to ensure they haven't hit a blood vessel though. Used to be SOP in the old days for IM jabs…not so much now.)

       Children however…criminally reckless to experiment on them where there is no real benefit. Why would we run the risk? Five years minimum from initial roll out. Precautionary Principal. Bugger tourism and keep going with MIQ if that what it takes.
       • Drowsy M. Kram 1.3.1.1

         22 June 2021 at 8:23 am

         And this shit certainly doesn't bolster faith in the impartiality of the investigations into post Covid vaccine deaths.

         There's "this shit", and then there's this shit. I have faith in, and will continue to trust the judgement of those whose decisions and actions have resulted in NZers being largely free of COVID shit.

         U.S., Europe Rise in Best Places to Be in Covid; Asia Suffers
         New Zealand regained the top position it held for five consecutive months until April with Covid all but wiped out in the island nation, allowing its people the freedoms of pre-Covid life—except for international travel.

         Still, its vaccine rollout has barely started with only 5% of the population covered, leaving New Zealand potentially vulnerable to the same dynamic that’s knocked other stars of virus containment.

         Everyone in NZ is free to choose who to trust, just as they are free to choose whether or not to be vaccinated against COVID-19.

         "You pays your money, and you takes your chance." So far NZ and the team of nearly five million have done far far better than I could have dreamed. No ‘Plan B‘ for me.
         • Rosemary McDonald 1.3.1.1.1

           22 June 2021 at 8:45 am

           Hang on a minute DMK…do you honestly think it is ok for a professional to pre-empt a proper investigation by declaring that…

           She didn't have all the details about the deaths of the two people in their 80s, but "I know enough to know they are not in any way related to the vaccine". ?

           This is not science. This is opinion being touted as science by someone who should know better. Petousis-Harris has enjoyed basking in the media spotlight as the NZ expert on vaccinations and perhaps her ego got in the way of her scientific ethics, but her dogmatic statements over these deaths has done damage to her reputation and wider confidence in the safety monitoring process.
           • Drowsy M. Kram 1.3.1.1.1.1

             22 June 2021 at 11:11 am

             Petousis-Harris has enjoyed basking in the media spotlight as the NZ expert on vaccinations and perhaps her ego got in the way of her scientific ethics…

             Rosemary, given that you've chosen to characterise Petousis-Harris as an egotist who enjoys 'basking' in the media spotlight, there's a potentially unbridgeable chasm between our opinions of how various NZ health professionals have acted during the on-going pandemic.

             I'm OK with trusting the judgement and (consensus) advice of those experts who have served the team of nearly five million well (frankly very well).

             I'm less trusting of the (minority) opinions of the Plan B crowd and various armchair critics, because they seem unwilling to acknowledge the enviable health outcomes achieved to date before getting stuck in to the Government or whichever health professional they feel has 'transgressed'.

             New Zealand regained the top position it held for five consecutive months until April with Covid all but wiped out in the island nation, allowing its people the freedoms of pre-Covid life—except for international travel.

             Imho a few NZers seem really determined not to know how lucky we all are.
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               22 June 2021 at 11:36 am

               DMK. I'll ask again. Do you think it is OK for a professional to pre-empt a proper investigation into deaths following vaccination by stating publicly..

               "I know enough to know they are not in any way related to the vaccine". ?
               • Drowsy M. Kram …

                 22 June 2021 at 12:20 pm

                 I'm OK with trusting the judgement and (consensus) advice of those experts who have served the team of nearly five million well (frankly very well).

                 That includes Petousis-Harris' judgement and advice. As an academic, Petousis-Harris should enjoy the same freedoms and protections afforded Thornley, Wiles, Baker and other “Critic and Conscience” academics commenting on various aspects of the COVID-19 pandemic.

                 Helen Petousis-Harris is a New Zealand vaccinologist and associate professor in the Department of General Practice and Primary Health Care at the University of Auckland. She has been involved in research related to vaccination in New Zealand since 1998, with her main areas of focus being vaccine safety and effectiveness. Petousis-Harris has had a variety of lead roles in New Zealand and international organisations that focus on vaccination and is a regular media spokesperson in this field, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic.

                 Rosemary, I get that you object to the particular 'Petousis-Harris comment' that you selected, but she is not alone. When choosing between consensus expert opinion and minority opinions to the contrary, I will give each opinion the consideration I believe it deserves. How could you, or I, do otherwise?

                 Covid 19 coronavirus: Vaccine safety committee investigating two deaths in NZ [8 May 2021]

                 Officials have stated there is currently no direct link to the vaccinations.

                 Medical staff believed the deaths were not related to being vaccinated.

                 "People need to understand that we're going to see lots of events occur after people have the jab."

                 That's because around 80, mostly elderly, people died in New Zealand every day.

                 She didn't have all the details about the deaths of the two people in their 80s, but "I know enough to know they are not in any way related to the vaccine".

                 But the investigation was the right thing to do, the University of Auckland associate professor said.

                 "It's important to determine if there's anything concerning."

                 Well whataya know, even that well know 'media spotlight-basking egotist' Petousis-Harris says "the investigation was the right thing to do". I'd hazard a guess that her comments were motivated in part by concerns about the health ramifications of COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy in NZ.
                 • Rosemary McDonald …

                   22 June 2021 at 12:37 pm

                   She should have kept her opinion to herself until after a thorough investigation had been conducted.

                   It is statements like "I know enough to know they are not in any way related to the vaccine" , without a proper investigation being conducted that merely adds to vaccine hesitancy in NZ.

                   People want reassurance that adverse events following vaccinations are being properly investigated in an unbiased and open -minded fashion. It is clearly inappropriate for a leading spokesperson to make such a statement.
                   • Drowsy M. Kram …

                     22 June 2021 at 12:51 pm

                     It is clearly inappropriate for a leading spokesperson to make such a statement.

                     In your opinion. Whereas I believe that during a global pandemic it is entirely appropriate for respected health experts to provide opinions to the MSM. In the absence of such expert opinions, Gawd knows what sort of rubbish might fill the void.

                     And, in fairness to Petousis-Harris, the opinion you find so objectionable was followed immediately by:

                     But the investigation was the right thing to do, the University of Auckland associate professor said.

                     “It’s important to determine if there’s anything concerning.”

                     I respect your opinion Rosemary, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
           • Sacha 1.3.1.1.1.2

             22 June 2021 at 11:49 am

             She didn't have all the details about the deaths of the two people in their 80s, but "I know enough to know they are not in any way related to the vaccine"

             We do not know the medical details that she is privy to. It is normal for suitably-skilled health professionals to make conclusions like that without a full investigation.
             • Rosemary McDonald …

               22 June 2021 at 12:19 pm

               It is normal for suitably-skilled health professionals to make conclusions like that without a full investigation.

               No. It isn't.
               • Sacha …

                 22 June 2021 at 12:29 pm

                 Then lodge a complaint and let us know the outcome. Otherwise as Drowsy says we just decide who to trust on the evidence we have.
2. Anker 2

   21 June 2021 at 7:00 pm

   The govt are already doing it with puberty blockers for very young adolescents

   https://segm.org/NICE_gender_medicine_systematic_review_finds_poor_quality_evidence

   the link is to NICE conclusions about the use of such drugs. NICE is the National institute in the UK that reviews the all research for treatments for a full range of medical conditions and/or issues that drugs are prescribed for. They are independent and scrupulously wade through all published studies on treatment. Their findings trump all research that others quote.

   Added to this in the listener this week an article on transgender and transitioning. A case example of a young women given puberty hormones, then cross hormones, then a full mastectomy at 16years and at 18 a hysterectomy. Now in her early 20’s this young women looks like a man, Adam’s apple etc and voice sounds male. She absolutely regrets this and wants to de transition

   surely no one can think this young persons story is ok
   • weka 2.1

     21 June 2021 at 7:11 pm

     huh, interesting, they're willing to wade in and they're putting it on the cover. Will buy a copy this week.

     https://www.facebook.com/nzlistener/posts/4368605303172370
   • greywarshark 2.2

     21 June 2021 at 7:52 pm

     How can it be that I can't get the right to a death in my old age when I have had enough of life, yet this poor young thing is able to be influenced by some people in society that want to play God with her. It's almost Mengelean in behaviour.
     • francesca 2.2.1

       22 June 2021 at 10:22 am

       I'm interested in the whole consent issue

       Whereas in some states of the US the age of consent is as high as 18, anything below that is considered statutory rape, prepubescent children are deemed old enough to consent to drastic surgical and drug interventions, the consequences of which require a lifetime of drugs to maintain the transition

       Out of courtesy and empathy, I will always address people with their chosen pronouns, but my scientific sense bridles at the outrageous suggestion that a cocktail of drugs and invasive surgery can create a woman from a biological man.It can create a facsimile of a woman, nothing more than that

       I like Georgina Beyer's approach.
3. Anker 3

   21 June 2021 at 7:27 pm

   • Yes it’s worth reading Weka. The first 6 pages or so are on the pro side. One page devoted to the case I outlined above (which in my book out weighs the previous 6 pages.

   I started out reading about this issue because I opposed gender self I’d. Now I realise there is so much more to it than that.

   I realise there are some people who feel their natal sex doesn’t equal how they feel inside.always has been, always will be. But such drastic physical changes at such an early age….wrong wrong wrong. Even Georgina Beyer has concerns about it
   • arkie 3.1

     21 June 2021 at 7:39 pm

     Does puberty itself not mean drastic physical changes? Puberty blockers delay these changes and have safely been used for decades for children with early onset puberty. Once a person goes off them their puberty progresses normally, trans people have to endure a second puberty in HRT, puberty blockers give children time to grow both physically and mentally, before they decide if they actually transition.
     • Anker 3.1.1

       21 June 2021 at 9:27 pm

       Arkie puberty does mean drastic physical changes, but that’s like saying isn’t kids growing taller a drastic physical change. Yes both are, but that is so kids can mature into adulthood.

       if you read the link to the NICE guideline s, it has I believe the definitive word on the lack of evidence for puberty blockers and the lack of understanding of the long term consequences. It absolutely cautions against them ad says they should only be used as a part of a research project where levels of informed consent are very high. In other words, they are unproven so therefore experimental
     • Mika 3.1.2

       22 June 2021 at 10:24 am

       Going through a natal puberty seems to help the gender dysphoria resolve. Most kids who had a "watchful waiting" approach will become accepting of their sex as they go through puberty. Most of these kids turn out to be gay or lesbian adults. If the goal is resolution of gender dysphoria, i.e. to reduce suffering, then going through a natal puberty seems to be much more effective that puberty blockers.

       There is something about undergoing puberty that helps with social, emotional and cognitive development, that is really important for the maturation of kids, and allows them to process their place in the world around them.

       The use of puberty blockers seems to "lock in" the gender dysphoria instead of allowing the development and growth that would allow it to resolve.

       Then there are the potential adverse effects of puberty blockers: adverse impacts on skeletal growth, and also neurocognitive development may be impaired.

       It's also important to know that none of these drugs are licenced for this use in any jurisdiction in the world. The drug companies have chosen not to apply for a licence for gender dysphoria, so doctors are using these drugs entirely "off-label"….
4. Sacha 4

   21 June 2021 at 8:06 pm

   Simon Bridges (!) reviews Michael Cullen's biography. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/michael-cullens-last-testament
   • alwyn 4.1

     21 June 2021 at 8:49 pm

     Thank you for pointing it out. I would probably have missed it otherwise as I don't often look at that site.
     • Shanreagh 4.1.1

       22 June 2021 at 6:21 pm

       A very good review. Almost textbook in its approach.
       • mac1 4.1.1.1

         22 June 2021 at 6:50 pm

         Yes, I was impressed with its literacy. Far more informative and engaging than his speaking engagements of which I have heard three.

         Interesting to hear Cullen' interview after 10 am on RNZ today with his excoriating view of the National middle and back benches especially.
         • Sacha 4.1.1.1.1

           22 June 2021 at 7:09 pm

           40 min audio: https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018800782/sir-michael-cullen-on-a-distinguished-career-and-labour-s-highs-and-lows
           • mac1 4.1.1.1.1.1

             22 June 2021 at 7:12 pm

             What did you think, Sacha?
             • Sacha …

               22 June 2021 at 7:28 pm

               Not had a spare 40 minutes, sorry. 🙂

• Comments are now closed

• Log in
• Donate
• Contribute post

• Articles RSS