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Desperate Nats reduced to bounties and bribery

Written By: - Date published: 3:48 pm, August 8th, 2008 - 123 comments
Categories: john key, same old national - Tags:

When there’s a strike on, it’s common practice for bosses to offer individual workers a bonus payment to scab on their comrades and return to work. Most workers spit on such offers, they know the best outcome in the long-term comes when they stand strong; they refuse to scab because it’s in their best interests and the interests of their fellow workers to show solidarity. They also know that scabs face social rejection if they betray their mates. Bosses still try because they think people are greedy and short-sighted, and put money ahead of dignity and honour.

Now, the bosses’ party is trying the same trick. Rumour coming from the Nats is a $10,000 reward has been offered by National for the name of the person who exposed their secret agenda by recording them at the cocktail function on Friday. They think that someone must know who did the recording, a friend, a confidante, and they think ‘they’re probably poor, a mere $10K will be enough to turn them traitor’.

This shows how damaging the revelation of a secret agenda is. After spending a year and a half on carefully staged public appearances, swallowing all those policies they hate, and spending over a million dollars of taxpayers’ money on Crosby/Textor, National has seen its edifice collapse. In John Key’s words, National ‘desperately wants to win the election’ (at 25:50), and they’ll do anything to make it happen: lie to the public, adopt policies they hate, anything, but now Key’s gone from being seen as the PM-in-waiting to being seen as a cheap con-man. They’re angry and they’re desperate, and they’ll use the one weapon they’ve got at their disposal, money, to try to find and hurt the person who exposed them for what they are.

If they really think anyone who knows whoever made the recordings will betray him for a Tory bribe, they’re dreaming.

123 comments on “Desperate Nats reduced to bounties and bribery ”

  1. the sprout 1

    good one sp.
    somehow i don’t see the Herald picking up this line, they’ll stop their faux attacks on Nat now there is a chance of real damage.

    and how about that National PR machine huh, who could think of a better way of keeping the story alive?

    this affair has definitely hurt National.

  2. Benodic 2

    I heard it’s because they think it’s a Young Nat. Apparently the “alternatively dressed” guy was brought in unauthorised by some young Tory and they’re trying to flush him out.

    A Tory bribe won’t work if our man is a lefty, but if he’s relying on Young Nats to put principle over a fat wad of cash I don’t like his chances.

  3. gobsmacked 3

    A Tory bribe won’t work if our man is a lefty

    Ten grand? Hell, I’ve sold grandmothers for less.

    Do the Nats want proof or can I just give them the name of some guy who stole a girlfriend?

  4. coge 4

    Steve, do you know the person who did the taping?

    Disclosure; I’m only curious & I don’t belong to any political party.

    Thanks!

  5. jaymam 5

    Was the person who did the taping short, bald and fat, talks out of the side of his mouth, and used to be a Young Nat many years ago when he was young?

  6. outofbed 6

    Question is, will they get me before I release another tape ?

  7. outofbed 7

    Doh
    Question is, will they get him before he release another tape ?

  8. coge. there are rumours floating around but I’m not sure which to believe and I don’t think the identity of the recorder matters anyway. It’s what was said that’s the scandal, not that someone had the balls to finally prove there is a secret agenda.

  9. oob. I’m sure you’ve got a series of safe houses around Nelson. Lie low and you should evade Nick Smith and his highly skilled operatives.

  10. randal 10

    check out the desperate nats on trade me…their push poll asks who did it with four choices: young labour, the cia, aliens, elvis. methinks it was a responsible citizen who values the country more than one crappy little political faction

  11. Lew 11

    SP said “there are rumours floating around but I’m not sure which to believe”

    I think that qualifies as a `no’, since to know the identity of the taper requires certainty.

    It’s possible that SP knows the taper, but doesn’t know he or she is the taper. It’s possible I do, or anyone else. Not sure what any of it proves, though.

    L

  12. higherstandard 12

    SP

    Educate me, what was so scandalous that was said.

    Perhaps you’d also like to offer an opinion on whether these type of antics along with the likes of the taping of Mike Williams at the Labour party conference will lead to more or less openness and candid comments by MPs ?

  13. higherstandard 13

    As an aside TV3 and Barry Soper are on record as knowing who did the taping so I suspect it’ll come out at some stage.

  14. Matthew Pilott 14

    If said recorder did nothing illegal (which seems to be the clear opinion out there), could s/he cash in on ten-kay? that would by a nice recorder, quality was a bit low on the last…

    Maybe even one of these! Yum!

  15. Scribe 15

    Steve,

    Most workers spit on such offers, they know the best outcome in the long-term comes when they stand strong; they refuse to scab because it?s in their best interests and the interests of their fellow workers to show solidarity.

    Translation: Workers who strike are selfish and hold their employers to ransom.

    Meanwhile, Ben Thomas, who I’m not a huge fan of, certainly thinks you and others are sorely mistaken. Your response? What’s he getting wrong?

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/comment/ben-thomas/englishs-second-language

    [how is it selfish to not betray your fellow workers? Workers can’t get fair pay rises unless they are willing to stand together to strengthen their bargaining power. SP]

  16. Matthew Pilott 16

    If the recorder did nothing illegal, as seems to be the concensus, could s/he cash in on the 10-kay? Maybe by a better quality recorder, the last was a bit crackly.

    Maybe one of these! Yum!

  17. coge 17

    Steve, thanks for your answer. Yes, I’m willing to take you at your word. I don’t doubt you have your own principles which you fervently subscribe to, & good on you for your convictions.
    However, I think your tacit endorsement of the method used is wrong. We must agree to disagree on this. The method deployed was executed using lies (misrepresentation of oneself), trespass & deception. They were clearly not acts of principle. The fact that the person has not come forward is behaviour consistant with this.
    What exactly have they got to hide?

  18. outofbed 18

    The best advise I can give to Nick Smith is to avoid showers 🙂

    Anyway hasn’t the best tape been saved till last ?

  19. gobsmacked 19

    I wish I was the mystery man.

    Dob myself in, get ten grand, get prosecuted by the Nats, get loads more negative publicity for them, become a celebrity martyr, write my memoirs.

    Best of all, keep saying “There’s more to come!”. There probably isn’t, but the effect on National nerves and sphincters would be fun.

    Do National really think that they’re going to win the election by obsessing over this? With each passing day, they’re going to look less like victims and more like bullies. What happened to the positive, ambitious, upbeat campaign? They have gone way off-message, and if they keep at it, that’s going to do them more harm than the audio clips. Dumb.

  20. “what exactly have they got to hide?’ – the richest political organisation in the country just put a price on their head. They’ve got a private life to protest from a vengeful, vindictive party that will do anything to win power and, it follows, try to extract whatever revenge it can from anyone who impedes that plan.

  21. Quoth the Raven 21

    Higherstandard – Are you saying that it’s alright for a political party not to be open with the public because if they’re found out that may cause them to be less open in the future. Putting the methods aside for a moment, HS do you have any criticisms of the National party since after these revelations?

  22. coge 22

    C’mon Steve. You’re trying to make this fellow, who in likelyhood
    broke the law, into Robin Hood? What 10k bounty? Your post is looking like fiction, where are your facts?

    As I have said, the fellow used lies, deception & abuse of trust.
    My inner hippy senses karma. Oommmmmmmm…….

    Must be Friday. Steve, when in doubt listen to your inner hippy.
    I don’t think he’s very happy with you.

  23. randal 23

    watch out for the hippy police…we have special truth drugs and can find out anything we want to…we dont need governments because we hunt and kill our own meat…beware!!!!
    sp is in the clear on this one.

  24. r0b 24

    You’re trying to make this fellow, who in likelyhood broke the law, into Robin Hood?

    Howzat Coge?
    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/wcc-getting-legal-advice-releasing-tapes-33803

    Canterbury University associate law professor Ursula Cheer today said it was not illegal to record a conversation you were involved in or could reasonably be expected to have overheard.

  25. outofbed 25

    it would be worth 10 grand to be the”man who lost National the election” He would also never have to buy a beer again

  26. gobsmacked 26

    the fellow used lies, deception & abuse of trust.

    What if he had been a loyal Nat (I’m not suggesting this guy was) and had heard things at a cocktail party and told a reporter afterwards?

    Would that person be serving the public interest?

  27. r0b 27

    the fellow used lies, deception & abuse of trust.

    By talking to a politician? Ho.

    My guess is he used a cellphone and balls of steel.

  28. higherstandard 28

    QOR

    As I have said on other threads the tapping at the Labour and National conferences produced a big nothing apart from a media scrum and politicians being less likely to say anything apart from party approved soundbites.

    And no these “revelations” haven’t made any difference to my opionion of the Nat’s have they made any difference to your opinion ?

    And as I asked SP do tou think these type of antics along with the likes of the taping of Mike Williams at the Labour party conference will lead to more or less openness and candid comments by MPs ?

  29. higherstandard 29

    The edit function isn’t working well QOR I’m pretty much of the same opinion as the link from Scribe some way up.

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/comment/ben-thomas/englishs-second-language

  30. r0b 30

    And as I asked SP do tou think these type of antics along with the likes of the taping of Mike Williams at the Labour party conference will lead to more or less openness and candid comments by MPs ?

    Pardon me for butting in, but isn’t that the wrong question? How about – will these antics lead to more or less honesty? For the first and possibly the only time in my life I agree with Rodney Hide: “the best solution is to say in private what you say in public’.

  31. gobsmacked 31

    HS

    Cart before horse. National have shut down the openness. Say as little as possible, as late as possible, to win.

    It’s about us, not them. The voters deserve to be informed, and we are sovereign, not the politicians and certainly not their cynical game-playing advisers.

  32. higherstandard 32

    rOb

    So the best solution is to mindlessly mouth party political statements brilliant.

    How does that fit with your comment that you had to present a non biased overview (apologies to you if it was someone else who posted this) of parties policy when in private you detest one or the other.

  33. higherstandard 33

    GS

    “It?s about us, not them. The voters deserve to be informed, and we are sovereign, not the politicians and certainly not their cynical game-playing advisers.”

    Wouldn’t that be nice.

    But it’s not, both National and Labour will do whatever is necessary to gain control of the treasury benches and their contempt for the public is on display regularly during parliamentary question time – close the doors and release the hounds on the lot of them I say.

  34. gobsmacked,

    Hear, hear.

  35. Leftie 35

    Coge says:
    “What exactly have they got to hide?”

    Jeez we know how you feel. National should be open and proud about its policies and agenda.

  36. HS,

    Does this comment mean you’ve been playing devils advocate all this time? It almost sounds you wouldn’t vote for either of them.

  37. Put a clog in it you stupid tulip.

  38. r0b 38

    So the best solution is to mindlessly mouth party political statements brilliant.

    I’ll try it again real slow HS. The best solution is to
    T E L L – T H E – T R U T H.
    Are you so politicly jaded that this is incomprehensible to you?

    How does that fit with your comment that you had to present a non biased overview (apologies to you if it was someone else who posted this) of parties policy when in private you detest one or the other.

    Yeah that was me but I don’t see the relevance. I told my audience that I was a member of one of the major parties, that I believed in one set of policies and not the other, but that I would try and present both sets of policies impartially. You know, I told the truth.

  39. Phil 39

    “If they really think anyone who knows whoever made the recordings will betray him for a Tory bribe, they’re dreaming”

    Using the standard rules of kremlinology…

    1) SP doesn’t know who is responsible for the recordings, and is furious that he’s not going to get his hands on the ten-large. He also thinks that he has enough influence that his peacock-like posturing and indignation is going to hold others back.

    2) SP does know who is responsible for the recordings, knows that they are intimately connected with a political party, and knows that if such information became public it would destroy a good handful of political careers, not to mention any and all traces of a Labour-led government at this election, and probably the next two after it.

  40. Dan 40

    $10,000 on his head!!! Sounds like the Sheriff of Nottingham is after Robin Hood. Or closer to home, Ned Kelly is being chased by the constabulary. And the Nats will look equally bumbling as Zorro jumps on his Vespa with his iPod recording device, and head home to his flat buzzing with the excitement of achieving more in one expedition than all the media and academics have achieved over the last year.
    The guy is a legend. Cullen’s delightful humour alludes to another hero within the NZ pysche. How on earth can the Nats be so silly to be fixated with Kiwisaver when so many NZers have adopted it as being NZ owned and offering really positive incentives to save.
    Friends who have been saying “Time for a change” have been very quiet this week…change to that lot??? Maybe not!!
    The National Party’s self-inflicted wounds of deceit and duplicity might lead to calls for a leadership change, but to whom?? English…yeah right?? Lockwood….Collins….Ryall,… McCully..yeah right!!
    $10,000… not enough. The guy (I may be assuming!) who made this breakthrough (of confirming the Nats policies) deserves a parliamentary pension for the contribution he has made to New Zealands’ democracy.

  41. RedLogix 41

    D4J;

    Put a clog in it you stupid tulip.

    Anyone else would get a banning for that. You do realise that we only keep you around because you are such an embarrassment to the right.

    Even then I sometimes wonder if it’s worth it.

  42. Ah d4j,

    Just the man I wanted to speak to.
    I’ve been thinking about your comments about Nicky Hager.

    Wow, man have you got problems. All you can do is some silly spluttering about “real” man while Nicky Hager in all his androgynous, wimpy majesty can actually influence elections all by his lonesome self. Balls of steel that man and you… just spluttering impotence.

  43. Oh right Redlogix. Your opinion, get a life you wimp.

    Edit – poor soft Dutchman. Get some balls you twisted creeps.

  44. the sprout 44

    “The guy is a legend… deserves a parliamentary pension for the contribution he has made to New Zealands’ democracy.”

    quite.

  45. RedLogix 45

    Peter Burns,

    Posting offensive comments on a blog requires no courage or ‘balls’ at all. The only plausible consequence might be to your reputation. But as you already know perfectly well, you have little of that to loose either.

    Which is kind of sad. Once upon a time there really was some meaning to the “Dad4Justice” moniker. But no longer; now it has become something else. Is this what you intended all those years ago?

  46. woppo 46

    dad4justice, over at Ian Wishart’s, pretending to be a christian:

    “Unlike you, who is full of hatred and venom I work at the maintenance of the special unity and put my priorities to the best of my ability in Christ.I uphold what is now and I don’t try to create it. I prefer to keep it because it is holy and it is sacred.”

    [let’s all ease off the insinuations about sexuality and genitalia. This isn’t 3rd form. SP]

  47. d4j,

    How about adding a real argument to the thread other than clog, tulip, and wimp.
    Your choice of words is deteriorating.
    Have another beer and go to bed d4j.

    see you tomorrow when your sober

  48. Lukas 48

    Hahaha I just fell off my chair when I read this from Trav… “Wow, man have you got problems.” ahhh the classic pot kettle black example if ever there was one

  49. woppo = fugly. Can I expect another malicious phone call this weekend you cowardly creep?
    Face it fugly – you are a spineless [no derogatory remarks about sexuality. SP]

  50. Better Dead Than Red 50

    I had to smile at the title- “Desperate Nats reduced to bounties and bribery”. How come you Reds are always so unable to see the irony in such drivel, especially that drivel wherein you attempt to portray yourselves as innocents done to harshly by corrupt capitalists??

    You support a party that only exists and only ever wins elections on the basis of bribery, and you all would sell your vote to whosoever offered you the largest amount of money by way of welfare payment or subsidy or grant or whatever. You don’t care one jot that said money is being stolen from the public purse in most cases purely for the purpose of buying your vote.

    The deceit involved in obtaining the subject recording is just so symptomatic of your thinking- we will do anything, (mainly in the pursuit of political power) no matter how corrupt or treacherous or deceitful or dishonest, because we will always do such things only for the “collective good”. Stalin used the same line to justify the murder of millions.

    The spectacle of Communists (yeah yeah, I know, you’re not commies, you’re social democrats, progressives, socialists, etc blah blah blah,- pull the other one mate, its got bells on it) trying to paint themselves as holding the high moral ground is always amusing. I know well you guys know nothing of morality, but I’m damn sure you know history.

  51. RedLogix 51

    The deceit involved in obtaining the subject recording is just so symptomatic of your thinking-

    At this point in time you have no idea who made these recordings, but it was TV3 and other media organisations who released them.

    The making of them was entirely the responsibility of the individual who concerned.

    The releasing of them was entirely the responsibility of the media organisations concerned.

    There is no linkage to ‘our thinking’.

    Stalin used the same line to justify the murder of millions.

    The use of ‘Stalin’ is probably a little excessive in this context.

  52. the sprout 52

    almost a godwin i’d say.
    they really don’t know how to fight this one do they?

  53. Dan 53

    There is no way to fight it. That is the simplicity of the truth. Possum in the headlights material!! If they had been arguing from policy based on their ideology, they could simply reiterate what they stand for. But now that the Labour-lite pretense has been well and truly punctured, they will revert to National of Muldoon: bash the unions, hit the crims, knock the welfare bludgers, kick the queers,rile against the bureaucrats, bring up the abortion issue, niggle the US relationship, etc, etc.
    I am ambitious for New Zealand…yeah right!

  54. Better Dead Than Red 54

    now that the Labour-lite pretense has been well and truly punctured, they will revert to National of Muldoon: bash the unions, hit the crims, knock the welfare bludgers, kick the queers,rile against the bureaucrats, bring up the abortion issue, niggle the US relationship, etc, etc.”

    Whatever Dan, were that true or not, it would be so much better than living under the insufferable jackbooted cultural tyranny of you do gooding interfering regulating power obsessed socialists-

    —————————

    Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

    – C.S. Lewis

    Just go away Dan. leave us be. Take your trickery and deceit with you. Leave us, and stop stealing from us. Stop telling us how to live. Stop taking our liberty, our property rights, our freedom. You deceive one person today, it will be another person tomorrow. In the end, you will deceive everyone. You cannot be trusted as decent human beings. Your obsession with power is too great.

  55. RedLogix 55

    “Consider the pettiness of men’s minds. They ask for that which injureth them, and cast away the thing that profiteth them. They are, indeed, of those that are far astray. We find some men desiring liberty, and priding themselves therein. Such men are in the depths of ignorance.
    Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench. Thus warneth you He Who is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing. Know ye that the embodiment of liberty and its symbol is the animal. That which beseemeth man is submission unto such restraints as will protect him from his own ignorance, and guard him against the harm of the mischief-maker. Liberty causeth man to overstep the bounds of propriety, and to infringe on the dignity of his station. It debaseth him to the level of extreme depravity and wickedness.
    Regard men as a flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their protection. This, verily, is the truth, the certain truth. We approve of liberty in certain circumstances, and refuse to sanction it in others. We, verily, are the All-Knowing.
    Say: True liberty consisteth in man’s submission unto My commandments, little as ye know it. Were men to observe that which We have sent down unto them from the Heaven of Revelation, they would, of a certainty, attain unto perfect liberty. Happy is the man that hath apprehended the Purpose of God in whatever He hath revealed from the Heaven of His Will that pervadeth all created things. Say: The liberty that profiteth you is to be found nowhere except in complete servitude unto God, the Eternal Truth. Whoso hath tasted of its sweetness will refuse to barter it for all the dominion of earth and heaven.”
    (Baha’u’llah: The Kitab-i-Aqdas, Pages: 63-64 also, Gleanings, page 334.)

    Now there is a different point of view to your one BDTR.

  56. MikeE 56

    Steve Peirson,for all of you talk of workers…. do you actually “work”?

    And if you do “work” does it actually create wealth for workers? or does it destroy it?

  57. MikeE. I work and, like all workers I can think of, my work produces wealth.. you can see an example of the work I’ve had in the last year here, because of stalkers like Bernard Hickey, I keep the businesses with which I do contract work to myself, the work I do for them has nothing to do with my activism..

    Try to be civil and decent, you have no grounds to question me in this manner, how would you like it if i demanded you answer questions about your life?

  58. forgetaboutthelastone 58

    “Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.”

    What, more oppressive than a tyranny sincerely exercised toward the death of its victims?

  59. btdr. interesting sentiments. how about we all get together in 3 months and say which kind of political ideology we prefer, and then have people representing those ideologies meet to decide how, when, and how society should act collectively through government, what behaviours should be permissable, and how government activities should be funded?

    We could call it democracy.

    Or we could all just do whatever you decide everyone wants… I wonder what we would call that..

  60. mike 60

    “They also know that scabs face social rejection if they betray their mates.”

    Like hell SP, maybe decades ago when the fat lazy unionised poms ran the show.
    It’s plain to see you have never worked in the real world.

    Being a union member thes days generally reflects badly on the employee, there are a few old school still around but they get pruned eventually. Unionised staff are weak by nature (pack mentality) and by giving the guys who can stand on their own a better run at things usually gets the union ones to turn.

    Sorry steve but the real solidarity these days is between bosses and productive, flexible workers who don’t need a crutch.

  61. outofbed 61

    They appear to be rattled, from the deafening silence of Kiwibog to the angry RWNJ’s posting here over the last few days.
    Maybe they sense that the tide is beginning to turn

    Its pretty simple really. If the Nats win campaigning for the things they believe in fair enough. I won’t like it, but that is democracy
    It the pretence that gets up my nose If you want to sell Kiwibank then bloody well say so. Let the electorate make a decision based on the facts. If you think the right-wing policies that you joined the party for stack up , then for goodness sake argue your point with as much passion as you can muster. However don’t pretend to be something you are not, it is dishonest an unprincipled. And ultimately an impossible situation to carry on for any length of time I would have thought if you want to come over passionately on the campaign trail, you surely have to believe in what you are campaigning for? Otherwise it just looks like what it is, a lust for power at all costs.
    It not worth winning if you have to sell your soul to do it

  62. Pascal's bookie 62

    (Better Red than Retarded I always say.)

    I find it hellish amusing all the “oh noes, U R not bein Fa1rs” talk, when the only thing that was exposed by this pernicious behaviour was that the Tory line that JK’s National party has no plans to undo what the current government has done is a bunch of crap. If the recordings didn’t expose anything there would have been no news. But they did, so there was. Suck it up.

    HS pretends not to understand so I’ll go through it nice and slow ’cause i like him.

    The National party campaign is based around the idea that under John Key’s leadership there has been a change of heart in the National Party.

    That is why they spurned ACT when ACT reanimated Roger. That is why they have swallowed all those dead rats. That is why John pretends not to have had any doubts about global warming, or that he wouldn’t have gone to Iraq. It’s why he now supports all those policies that he recently said were communism. They are trying to get the punters to think that The National Party is Labour plus, to borrow some terminology. That all the gains people feel they have made are safe that the new right is just like the left, but you get tax cuts.

    In order to pull this off HS, they need to do two things. Firstly, convince people that that they will not repeal the bits of popular legislation that labour has passed. That’s the easy bit. You just say it forcefully and that in itself puts pressure on you to keep that promise.

    The other thing they need to do is convince people that they won’t pull a fast one, keeping to the strict letter of their promises while making merry hell with the underlying reality. For example, Locky baby came to my college when I was in the 7th form and personally promised me that the tertiary fee being charged by the govt would go if he was elected. He kept his word. But I clocked up a whole bunch of debt due to fees charged by the Tertiary institutions that I attended. Thanks for being candid, c*nt. No doubt that slight of hand was prompted by some ‘discussion papers’ once he came in to office.

    What these tapes show, is not that the Tories have been technically lying about details, but that they haven’t changed their minds about the underlying realities. Anyone reading this blog wouldn’t have expected them to, but that isn’t the point. They are lying to the vast majority of people who do not fall in to the political tragic demographic. The people who don’t remember what Locky said way back when he was last in opposition, and who barely remember the issues the last election was fought over.

    This is not to say those people are ignorant, but just that they have other interests and who can blame them? But they are the ones getting lied to. And the lie that has been fed to them is the one that has been exposed.

    Those people are the ones that, if they thought that the Nat’s had really truly moved on from the neo-liberal stuff, have learned something this week.

    This is not to say that the Nat’s tactic is unusual, it’s not. But Let us not be children pretending that the Nat’s are the victims of anything but their own skulduggery being exposed.

    “You tricked me into telling the truth to the wrong person” is the lamest plea for justice ever.

    That is why the Nat’s have had such a collective freak out. I think it will take a while to show up in polls and what have you, but it will be like a weeping sore, because now whenever the Nat’s try the “It’s not our policy in the first term” routine, the listener will be primed to pay attention to the second clause not the first, and think about what that means with regard to policy overall.

    So when you say that this sort of devious taping behaviour will lead to less candor, I can only ask what the fuck. The assumption you seem to be making is that most or even many people have the opportunity that you get for one on one face time with the pollies, where candor can be expected. That’s pretty damned elitist. Most people want candor when they are on the record. Cause that’s the only time we get to hear them.

    Forgive me if I’m wrong HS but you seem to be saying that you think the taping was bad because now you won’t get to hear MP’s speaking candidly. You’ll be just getting the same lines the rest of the pleb’s get, and you’ll have to try and figure out what they really mean through the same hodgepodge processes. I’m not sure what to say, if that is the case.

    In response to ‘U WeR a Ch33tN Sn33ks’

    h3 WZ N Ur CONfr4nc3, Xpoz’n ur Agnd4Z

    1337

  63. Better Dead Than Red 63

    “and then have people representing those ideologies meet to decide how, when, and how society should act collectively through government, what behaviours should be permissable, and how government activities should be funded? We could call it democracy.”

    Others might term it totalitarian tyranny, for, as some say, the government who robs Peter and shares the proceeds of that robbery with Paul, can always rely on the vote of Paul. However, for this perversion of democracy to succeed, the power seekers must do all they can to destroy ethics and personal morality amongst the populace. The power seekers must root out independence and replace it with dependence. They must root out initiative and replace it with submission to the greyed out mentality of the collective. They must root out self sufficiency and replace it with the idea that without government there is no fulfillment. In other words, they must destroy the heart of a country. As they have done with New Zealand, a country once so proud and strong that I was so glad I was a New Zealander. No more. No more that country, no more that gladness.

  64. mike. you might be a house slave but try telling Unite! members about you’re blessed ‘solidarity between bosses and flexible workers’ or the miners that scabs don’t face social rejection.

  65. Owen Glenn 65

    Can I please buy this country? Thank you.

  66. ak 66

    they really don’t know how to fight this one do they?

    No, they don’t sprout. And the confusion that accompanies the inevitable collapse of ideologically bereft and purely machiavellian campaigns such as the tories have waged since 2004 is manifest in the sort of wild flailing and reversion to “reds-under-beds” stereotype we see above. Diversionary focussing on “dirty tricks” is their only option in the face of disaster: and with every desperate grasp and literal scrape of the bottom of the rubbish bin, the whites of tory eyes grow larger to the public.

    A massively damaging week for Shiny Keyster and the Sadrones: not only has the cowardly “me too” inoculation facade been exploded with the revelations regarding borrowing to fund the tax-cut bribe and the intention to sell assets, but the myth of tory unity and competence has been shattered irretrievably.

    English’s comments on Key were particularly interesting: he who would be 2IC of our country revealing a deep cynicism at best towards his (apparent) comrade and leader. “The nice guy.. the public sees this nice guy..” seems far closer to typical Standardista sarcasm than what one might expect from a committed partner in the race for NZ’s top job. Refusing to rescind, forced to apologise, the tension building to a boorish camera-pushing climax.

    Together with Smith’s obvious and equally cynical “go through a discussion document process” remarks, the public has enjoyed a wide-screen view of the wide-boy and his bumbling stooges. Now more than ever, the NIce Man is Big Money’s sole and increasingly fragile player.

    Our golden top-salesman master of office politics has never lost – but this is his first time in the premier league. Just play out your sets, Hels and Culs: the fumbles from the opposition have started already.

  67. the sprout 67

    hear hear pb, ak.
    when you’re the only thing around that’s blazing in the sky and a heat seeker is heading for your arse, the only hope left is chaff.

  68. Better Dead Than Red 68

    If there is ever any one thing that demonstrates the left’s utter detachment from reality its their perception that the Nats are a “tory” party. Most Nats would not even know what a Tory was, where the term originated or even what it truly meant. The Nats are a confused collection of political flotsam and jetsam who lack the left’s global strategies and whose alliance is (sadly) based on the idea that they can do socialism better than Labour. That is really the only point of difference. But don’t worry guys, a more worthy opposition is developing. Embryonic now, it will soon engulf compromisers like Key and McCain. Then you’ll really have a target for your sad old class warfare commie terminology.

  69. Lew 69

    Wow, it’s BDTRstradamus!

    1. Decry red tories
    2. Decry blue tories
    3. ???
    4. Prophet!

    L

  70. ak 70

    Ah, joy. BDTR: sounds like Michele Cabiling’s back to re-recycle her undergraduate essays in poisonous paranoia and delight us with yet another rivetting (and endless) rendition of that old favourite “Libertarian Death March”.
    Away you go ‘chelle – we could all use some light relief. Embryonic you say?

  71. Dan 71

    Hi BDTR,
    Sorry to touch such a raw nerve. Have another shandy. I am a little perplexed about your “the insufferable jackbooted cultural tyranny of you do gooding interfering regulating power obsessed socialists”.

    insufferable: highest employment levels for years, but now faced with a downturn mainly due to external influences. Most people have survived the last 10 years pretty well. I am sorry you missed it.
    jackbooted: NZ a police state… nonsense
    cultural tyranny: whatever that means… Maori renaissance, support of the arts
    do-gooding: what’s wrong with helping others. The opposite occurred under National last when voluntary social services were overwhelmed by unfortunates unable to cope and for whom there was no-one else to turn to
    interfering: what’s wrong with a few laws to maintain standards and civility
    regulating: as a number of studies have shown, our level of regulating is a lot less than many countries. You believe your own propaganda too much
    power-obsessed: who is so power-obsessed that you have to adopt all the opposition popular polcies to get into power. You should be attacking Mr Key and his mate about obsession with power.
    socialist: I don’t like labels, but if a fair go for all is the meaning of socialist, then I might be one. There are some aspects of capitalism that can be positive but the version espoused behind closed doors by the Nats is not my ambition for NZ.
    Your outburst, and the quietness of the blogs on the right suggest the Olympic Games and the prospect of a medal or two might brighten your weeks ahead rather than the prospects of the dead-on-the-water leadership of the Nats. Roger Douglas and the little guy in yellow will attract the folk on the real right, and the Holyoake Nats of old will either not vote or quietly without telling anyone that maybe Helen and her crowd are not so bad, and give a vote to the more centre than left Labour, or idealistic Greens. Oh, I forgot Winny, who must be chuckling down Courtney Place tonight.

  72. Draco TB 72

    The power seekers must root out independence and replace it with dependence. They must root out initiative and replace it with submission to the greyed out mentality of the collective. They must root out self sufficiency and replace it with the idea that without government there is no fulfillment.

    What you are describing here is capitalism.

    Capitalism cannot exist where people can be independent. It can only exist where people are forced to work for someone else to survive. Your claim that the right wants to remove people from dependence upon the state is a deception because they need those people to be dependent upon the capitalists so that the capitalist economy works. The right aren’t out to have everybody be independent but to ensure that the majority are dependent upon the capitalists, to ensure that that majority are living in poverty.

  73. But Draco TB, the same can be said for socialism. I mean, the bigger the state grows, the more it intrudes on our lives, the more dependent we become on it.
    Two sides to every ideology eh mate.

  74. Better Dead Than Red 74

    “another rivetting (and endless) rendition of that old favourite ?Libertarian Death March?.”

    Once again, we see that same old paucity of perception that underpins the socialist’s mentality. There was a time in most countries when the citizens not only did not know of Libertarians, they did not know of socialism, and that time was generally a better time for all. For example I cannot see that America’s incremental descent into the same socialist mire as Europe has provided an improvement over the free society that was established by those who signed the Declaration of Independence. People schooled in the western traditions of individual freedom have been gradually replaced by those who have been manipulated to want a Fabian socialist utopia. Its no improvement. Its a barbaric regression.

    BTW- two tees in riveting?

  75. ak 75

    Michele: Its no improvement. Its a barbaric regression.

    uh..yeah, yeah, ok chelly babe – we’re far worse off now than back in those rosy satanic mills/life expectancy 29yrs days, sure, ok ‘chele….

    Hey dad! Nice comment! And you’re right – we don’t want the state too big, but mate, we don’t want the fat cats too big either. Workers make the world go round dad – not the owners. If the workers hadn’t got together and fought for our rights we’d still be back in slavery mate. Actually, $12 an hour isn’t too far off slavery – I reckon the state could get a bit bigger yet. Sure we gotta have someone organising things, but why should they get massively more than the poor bastards who do all the shit work dad?

    (and yeah chelle – two tees in rivetting, and 3 in targetting)

  76. ak 76

    (and please accept my apologies from this rivetting discourse but I have just been informed that The Librarians is on)

  77. the sprout 77

    “Most Nats would not even know what a Tory was”

    well the lack of self-awareness is one of the signs, but not an excuse.

    oh, and please let it not be michelle. it’s like a talkback caller that’s done a year at university.

  78. Pascal's bookie 78

    BDTR, before you go and top yourself to escape this hell on earth that liberal social democrats have created, would you willingly trade places with an individual from the days of the Early American Republic? (for the sake of the argument we’ll even leave life expectancy and technological progress out of the equation to make it easy)

    Before you answer I’m going to have to state that you don’t get to choose to be a white protestant land owning male. The person you trade with would be selected randomly. So fifty percent chance female, possibly a black slave, or native American, probably poor, and so forth.

    I’ll bet that if it were possible, a randomly selected individual from then would take the same deal, on the same terms, far more often than not.

  79. Better Dead Than Red 79

    “uh..yeah, yeah, ok chelly babe – we’re far worse off now than back in those rosy satanic mills/life expectancy 29yrs days, sure, ok ‘chele .”

    In terms of the political state, there’s no social measure that doesn’t support my view. Intolerable crime rates, state dependancy, erosion of personal freedoms and property rights, drug dependency, authoritarianism, the perversion of democracy, so many events that are all negative outcomes that are the result of Marxism’s gradual overpowering of free men. Blind ideology is the only reason one would see it any other way.

    “(and yeah chelle – two tees in rivetting, and 3 in targetting)”

    Depends where you were educated ak, (educated being a term that in your case will suffice I guess) “Tories.” Snigger, thanks for the laugh.

  80. r0b 80

    In terms of the political state, there’s no social measure that doesn’t support my view.

    Odd then that only about 1% of the population share your view. I guess that 99% of the population can’t see your obvious truth. Either that or you are stark raving bonkers.

    Blind ideology is the only reason one would see it any other way.

    At least you have a sense of humour though!

  81. Better Dead Than Red 81

    “So fifty percent chance female, possibly a black slave, or native American, probably poor, and so forth.”

    A statement that demonstrates a typically socialist lack of historical perspective. More than quarter of a million soldiers, predominately white Americans in the Union army, gave their lives to end slavery. (incidentally, a state of affairs favoured by the Democrats.)

    What choice would I have today as a comparison? A black dispirited and hopeless generational welfare addict hooked on drugs living in a socialist crested ghetto, totally surrounded by crime and social degeneration? From slave to a Democrat plantation owner to slave to a socialist power seeker.

  82. Dan 82

    “National Recall of Yoplait” is the headline in the Herald. I think they have found the bug at conference!

  83. ak 83

    Nah. Sorry, false alarm. Michele had far more life than this dreary and flaccid flossie. Nigh nigh compadres (and dad).

  84. Better Dead Than Red 84

    “Odd then that only about 1% of the population share your view. I guess that 99% of the population can’t see your obvious truth.”

    Hitler enjoyed majority support at the same time as he was committing genocide. Saddam Hussein and Fidel Castro, two notorious totalitarian dictators and murderers also claimed to have majority support. If you had any real argument I guess you would write it here, rather than use the devoid of logic device of claimed numerical superiority. Its the refuge of the intellectual coward.

  85. r0b 85

    A statement that demonstrates a typically socialist lack of historical perspective. More than quarter of a million soldiers, predominately white Americans in the Union army, gave their lives to end slavery.

    Ahhh – no. The civil war was a war to preserve slavery, not to end it. The Confederates attacked first, fighting to preserve their “right” to own slaves. The Union had to respond of course, and the Confederates lost. But ending slavery did not become an official goal of the Union until a year and a half after the war started (and there was a lot of debate about it even then).

    Now what was that about a lack of historical perspective?

  86. Draco TB 86

    Two sides to every ideology eh mate.

    No d4j, there is at least one that has only one side and that is the correct one. We haven’t reached it yet though. Still need to evolve more.

  87. r0b 87

    Hitler enjoyed majority support at the same time as he was committing genocide.

    And if this was true (which it isn’t), that would prove that the majority is always wrong would it?

    Its the refuge of the intellectual coward.

    Is that so.

  88. Better Dead Than Red 88

    “Now what was that about a lack of historical perspective?”

    Probably nothing (like truth) that could withstand the powerful forces of world wide socialist historical revisionism as preached by the disciples of Marxism who control today’s so called learning institutes.

  89. r0b 89

    Probably nothing (like truth) that could withstand the powerful forces of world wide socialist historical revisionism as preached by the disciples of Marxism who control today’s so called learning institutes.

    Oh you’ve made this far too easy, you’re no fun at all.

    Goodnight dearie!

  90. Better Dead Than Red 90

    Night commies all (and Dad) Comforting to see all my thoughts on the inability of the left to deal with arguments that combatively confront their religion proved right once again. Shame the Nats aren’t up to it. Labour would be dust in a few months. But the Nats are socialists too really, and that is why they have nothing to articulate and are today so hopelessly at sea in the battle of ideas.

    BTW, I’m not really any ‘right winger’, merely the long suppressed voice of the middle class the left are determined to crush between the twin millstones of taxation and inflation.

  91. jaymam 91

    Better Dead Than Red? Welcome Redbaiter! I recognise the style.
    Have you given up on Kiwiblog?

  92. RedLogix 92

    The problem with trying to discuss anything with Libertarians is that there really are no shared values or premises. All debates immediately diverge into absurdity because of this.

    Really it would be a great service all round if we could find a pleasant and otherwise idle planet for them to colonise. It would be interesting to what happens when they started imposing things on each other in the name of ‘freedom’. And how they would react if a group of subversives in their midst decided that they wanted to form a ‘state’.

  93. Better Dead Than Red 93

    “The problem with trying to discuss anything with Libertarians”

    Yawn- just have enough state of conscience remaining to remark on how once again the Left demonstrate their peculiar political narrowness. If one does not support the Labour/ Green/ Progressives Party or the Nats, it appears the assumption is one must be a Libertarian. I refer you (Redillogix) to my post of 9:50 PM. I’m merely an old fashioned small government low tax Conservative. (As anyone with broad political understanding would recognise) Anathema to the Libertarians, who view me as just as big a threat to their envisioned utopia as you guys. I’m also reviled by the pseudo liberals who dominate ACT. As I said to that flapper ak, embryonic after the massive cultural onslaught of the Marxists, we will rise again when the soft left Key/ McCain types are revealed as just as a big a disappointment to the middle class as the hard left (always posing as centrists) they replaced.

  94. Quoth the Raven 94

    Probably nothing (like truth) that could withstand the powerful forces of world wide socialist historical revisionism as preached by the disciples of Marxism who control today’s so called learning institutes.

    I guess you’ve never been to a commerce department.

    In terms of the political state, there’s no social measure that doesn’t support my view. Intolerable crime rates, state dependancy, erosion of personal freedoms and property rights, drug dependency, authoritarianism, the perversion of democracy, so many events that are all negative outcomes that are the result of Marxism’s gradual overpowering of free men.

    We’ve got the lowest crime in about 25 years. State dependancy – benefit numbers are way down. Erosion of personal freedoms – prostitution law reform, civl unions. Okay I agree this government could be way more liberal. But I don’t think you actually believe in personal freedoms – Where do you stand on drug prohibition, gay marriage, polygamy, public nudity, euthanasia, etc? Property rights? Explain exactly how you’ve lost property rights. Perversion of democracy – Wasn’t it a Labour government that paved the way for MMP and so better representation in parliament?

    Are you a satirist?

  95. RedLogix 95

    I’m merely an old fashioned small government low tax Conservative.

    Do you think none of us have not seen this anti-socialist rhetoric of yours before? It’s sure got a solid streak Libertarian run’n down the underbelly.

    If however you have dropped some of their more absurd dogma and become a low-tax small-state conservative, then welcome back to the real world. But please, this IS a Labour/Green partisan blog. If you sincerely want to debate events and ideas with us then go for it, but drop the faux intellectual posturing and troll-like posts. Unlike Kiwiblog, you will find the sysops here are not only arrogant bastards, but positively delight in being narrow minded about that sort of thing.

  96. jbc 96

    Sorry to drag this all the way back to the original post but I see no-one has questioned the term “bribery”.

    If I offered the friendly policewoman $100 to settle my speeding ticket on the spot then that would be bribery.

    If an MP was to “help some people with immigration issues” in exchange for services to his own benefit then he might stand trial on bribery and corruption charges.

    In this case I don’t see National inducing anyone to do anything dishonest or illegal. Quite the opposite it would seem.

    OK. That’s off my chest. Let the slanging match continue…

  97. Draco TB 97

    Comforting to see all my thoughts on the inability of the left to deal with arguments that combatively confront their religion proved right once again.

    You haven’t confronted all of them and you seem to be hiding away from the reality of your position.

  98. Razorlight 98

    jbc, you are absolutley correct. What is the bribe that you are referring to SP?

    You have the gall to call National desperate yet it is you that is attempting to write this sensationalist rubbish in the hope that somehow this will bite into Nationals enormous poll lead. That is what is deperate. This is the kind of political commentary that belongs in an English tabloid.

  99. Better Dead Than Red 99

    “Are you a satirist?”

    Not at all. I merely prefer reality to weak Stalinist propaganda. (as any thinking person would)

    “I don’t think you actually believe in personal freedoms”

    You have the gall to say this when your whole approach to politics rests upon controlling as much as possible how people think and what they say, and if they ever dare to step outside the Berlin wall that surrounds your ideology, they are assaulted by the jackbooted guards in the watch towers, as Redillogix so aptly demonstrates when he says-

    “you will find the sysops here are not only arrogant bastards, but positively delight in being narrow minded about that sort of thing.”

    If you say so R. (and then you criticise me for using words like Stalinist?)

    Have a good day comrades- I can do without the revulsion.

  100. BTW, I’m not really any ‘right winger’, merely the long suppressed voice of the middle class the left are determined to crush between the twin millstones of taxation and inflation.

    In that case you might want to watchthe Money Masters

    It’s a three and a half hour documentary about the history of the Federal Reserve banking system. It explains in detail the mechanism used by the Central bankers (Yep, one of them is John Key. From 1999 until March 2001 he was one of only four upon invitation only advisors of the federal Reserve of New York ) to rob the middle classes with taxation and inflation.

  101. outofbed 101

    politics101

  102. Draco TB 102

    There was a time in most countries when the citizens not only did not know of Libertarians, they did not know of socialism, and that time was generally a better time for all.

    “I don’t think you actually believe in personal freedoms’

    You have the gall to say this when your whole approach to politics rests upon controlling as much as possible how people think and what they say,

    That time was generally called Feudalism and/or Absolutism so you can probably see why we think that you don’t believe in personal freedoms. Although, the serfs could have been considered freer in a limited sense as they were owner/occupier of their lands and fully supported themselves which, from what you’ve written, you fully support. There was very little trade or progress though.

  103. infused 103

    “They appear to be rattled, from the deafening silence of Kiwibog to the angry RWNJ’s posting here over the last few days.
    Maybe they sense that the tide is beginning to turn”

    Couldn’t be further from the truth. We just don’t care. The whole thing has been blown out of proportion. I don’t even bother commenting on it now.

  104. Quoth the Raven 104

    You have the gall to say this when your whole approach to politics rests upon controlling as much as possible how people think and what they say, and if they ever dare to step outside the Berlin wall that surrounds your ideology, they are assaulted by the jackbooted guards in the watch towers, as Redillogix so aptly demonstrates when he says-

    Where do you stand on some of the issues I raised earlier? I’m betting that you have fairly conservative morals and hence your idea of personal freedoms is only freedom for people who walk talk and act like you. In which case I believe I can say that you don’t actually believe in personal freedoms. Come on surprise me.

  105. forgetaboutthelastone 105

    “We just don’t care… I don’t even bother commenting on it now.” = denial. Some of your pals over at the herald seem to have moved on toward acceptance. Here and here.

    o but we all know that the herald is a labour party mouth-piece… no wait! what?

  106. higherstandard 106

    r0b

    Yes I am that politically jaded – unlike yourself I choose not to trust either of the two major parties in NZ who both veer towards a non de script centrist line and are terrified of saying much outside the very bland.

  107. forgetaboutthelastone 107

    O shit – my links dont work:

    Link 1

    Link 2

    trying again – please excuse my ineptitude.

    (its leaving an extra ‘ on the end of links that i copypasta’d from the faq – fixed this one though)

  108. r0b 108

    Yes I am that politically jaded – unlike yourself I choose not to trust either of the two major parties in NZ

    You’re in a kind of circular trap there HS. You don’t believe anything they say so you don’t care if they lie so you don’t believe anything they say so you don’t care…

    I care if they lie. I put it to you that it would be a better world if we all cared if they lie.

  109. higherstandard 109

    rob

    I did not say I don’t care if they lie.

    Merely that I have a fairly low regard for politicians especially in election year.

  110. Ari 110

    D4J- yay, a worthwhile comment!

    The essence of social democracy is not having a state so big it crushes private enterprise- rather, it is having a state big enough that it fights on at least relatively equal terms with big private enterprise and they try to keep each other’s evils contained that way. (In practice, the state has to be a bit bigger because it generally doesn’t play hardball as well as business does) It generally follows the other principles of our democracy- keep the factions fighting against each other so that nobody has absolute control.

    The Nats don’t just want to even up the odds for private enterprise, however. They’re essentially hiding an agenda to slowly bankrupt the state with debt and let it get rolled all over in some sort of libertarian/conservative ideological feeding frenzy. Oh my. As much as I dislike some of Labour’s failings, the nats really do make them look warm and fuzzy in comparison.

  111. Ari 111

    Gobsmacked:

    Do the Nats want proof or can I just give them the name of some guy who stole a girlfriend?

    Something about this turn of phrase really bothers me- oh, that’s right, it’s because you’re treating people like property. Ew. 😛

  112. gobsmacked 112

    Hi Ari

    My previous sentence, in the same comment, is even worse:

    Ten grand? Hell, I’ve sold grandmothers for less.

    What an appalling attitude I’ve portrayed.

    This would suggest that either 1) I do indeed treat people like property, or (and I’m going to humbly suggest this one) 2) the comments are deliberately, obviously stupid, which would make them … a joke.

    Cheers.

  113. Ari 113

    GS-
    A joke in poor taste… is still in poor taste, sadly. 😛

  114. Robin Grieve 114

    The left are at it again , fighting shadows because there is nothing National has said that scares you. National policy is National policy, the private thoughts of all the memebers collectively make the policy,just because Bill English said he may eventually sell thebank does not mean National will. Bill English is one man and importantly he is not the next PM John Key is.
    It is no different to Michael Cullen being against tax cuts, Helen made him do it to try and save her ass. And of course it i sno different to the private thoughts of Labour mps who have wickedly socialist policies that are supresed by a fairly right wing labour party, far mor eright wing than many past National Governments.

    [lprent: Please punctuate and preferably add a spell checker. That little rant was incredibly hard to read, as well as being internally incomprehensible. Even sysops feel the pain of mangled language 🙂 I also look at language mangling as a good indicator of trolls. Read the Policy. ]

  115. randal 115

    national has no policy…they have just developed an ability to pander to the little people and promise them a share of the loot if they get the chance to dismember our social institutions like they did the last time. However they are false promises. think leaky homes and how many “mom and pop” investors left in the electricty corporations after compulsory share acquisitions during the inevitable takeovers. National are still hostage to the 90’s philosophy of greed when the rules and the conditions have changed but they still offer the same old false promises as if they can magic something up when they cant!

  116. Swampy 116

    Sadly for you this post is really partisan and not likely to win you much brownie points with the general public. Only hard core unionists rabbit on and foam at the mouth about scabs. The word belongs in the dark ages and the fact it is still bandied about in left wing circles shows some people still have to grow up.

  117. r0b 117

    The word belongs in the dark ages

    with the employer tactics that created it.

  118. lprent 118

    But swampy – the Nat’s do live in the dark ages. Just look at their ‘public’ policies. Rob Oram thinks that the look like old ones from the 1990’s – Rod Oram: National needs a shake-up.

    I go a little further on some of them and compare them to Think Big.

    You obviously know very little about how conservative the Nats actually are.

  119. Draco TB 119

    I tend to go even further when I say that National and other conservative parties around the world want to take us back to the dark ages I quite literally mean the Dark Ages.

  120. BDTR: I’ve found your contributions very amusing. I’m not entirely sure whether to actually believe your claim not to be a satirist because you make me so glad I don’t share the ideology you claim to endorse.
    You claimed several times on this thread that you support personal freedom. Note that some left-wing contributors to this thread have given examples of freedoms that their endorsed political ideology would ensure. All you have to say to this is “Nooooo you’re the one that wants to take away freedom not meeee!”. If you can’t justify your position then don’t pretend you can.

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