English won’t attend Waitangi Day

Written By: - Date published: 9:07 am, January 9th, 2017 - 191 comments
Categories: bill english, Maori Issues, national - Tags: ,

Interesting call from English. PM Bill English won’t attend Waitangi Day commemorations –

Prime Minister Bill English will spend Waitangi Day in Auckland, which means for a second year in a row the country’s leader won’t attend commemorations.

English –

“After the issues surrounding the previous Prime Minister’s attendance at Te Tii Marae last year, my office sought clarification from marae kaumatua that I would be welcomed and able speak about issues of importance to New Zealand, as is tradition.

“However, my office was advised I could attend the powhiri but not speak – conditions which are not acceptable to me.

I don’t think it does a PM any harm to shut up and listen for a change instead of talking, but this does not seem to be possible for the Nats.

Update: (MS) What refusal to speak?

191 comments on “English won’t attend Waitangi Day ”

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  1. Ad 1
    9 January 2017 at 9:39 am

    That is quite a major condition to shut down speaking rights to the leader of the country. I can’t think of another country in which that would happen.

    • weka 1.1
      9 January 2017 at 9:49 am

      what speaking rights? Do manuhiri have such rights on a marae?

      • Ad 1.1.1
        9 January 2017 at 10:13 am

        They generally respond, both in welcome and in song.

        • weka 1.1.1.1
          9 January 2017 at 10:30 am

          yes, but that’s different than getting to make a speech isn’t it? From what I remember last year Key was allowed to speak in one part of the event but not another. I think there is a misconception here that the Crown has some kind of special and automatic rights. If the PM of Australia came to the NZ parliament, would they be allowed to speak in the House automatically? Let’s not forget that Waitangi is Māori space.

          • R Brownlee 1.1.1.1.1
            12 January 2017 at 4:49 am

            First of all their is precident, until last year the Prime Minister was always able to speak at the powhiri without a gag.

            Secondly, Waitangi is a day commemorating the founding of our nation. A small group of people deciding that our political leader can’t speak at what is supposed to be the most important celebration of that is absurd

            • weka 1.1.1.1.1.1
              12 January 2017 at 8:17 am

              Waitangi Day commemorates the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi by the Crown and various Māori iwi. We may consider that the founding of our nation, but surely that would include honouring the treaty (or at the least naming it when we talk about Waitangi Day).

              “A small group of people deciding that our political leader can’t speak at what is supposed to be the most important celebration of that is absurd”

              So do you think a small group of people deciding that the PM of Australia can’t speak in the House is absurd too?

              • Clump_AKA Sam …
                12 January 2017 at 8:22 am

                Also a new precedent has been set. Man up and apologise muppet

              • R Brownlee …
                12 January 2017 at 2:36 pm

                In the former a leader is having their speaking rights limited in his own nation on a day celebrating that nations birth. In the latter a leader having their speaking rights limited in a foregin nation while on a diplomatic trip.

                You consider these events to be the same. In order for your logic to be consistent you must accept that Maori are a foregin nation separate to the crown. Or you must accept that New Zealand and Aus are a single nation. Neither of which are true

                The Tereaty should be honoured and talked about. If you believe that limiting the speach of the PM is the way to achieve that, then we disagree

                • weka …
                  12 January 2017 at 2:39 pm

                  In order for my logic to be consistent I have to accept that Māori have the right to do what they want on their own marae, and doubly so because of the Treaty. Which is exactly what I am saying. Māori aren’t a subset of the Crown, they are equal partners.

    • Carolyn_nth 1.2
      9 January 2017 at 9:53 am

      Is there an equivalent to a Marae on the grounds where a treaty was signed, in other nations? US presidents rarely visit Native American nations.

      Obama’s visit to the Sioux nation was touted as a rare visit from a POTUS

      And there were protests against the Standing Rock pipeline.

      There’s no equivalent location in the UK or Australia.

      When Justin Trudeau visited a first nation reserve in Canada, it looks like he spent most of the time listening.

      • Ad 1.2.1
        9 January 2017 at 10:18 am

        Obama’s speech notes from his 2014 visit:
        https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/06/13/remarks-president-cannon-ball-flag-day-celebration

        Comparing Trudeau’s visit to an isolated indigenous reserve with the primary national ceremony in the Treaty of Waitangi grounds is like comparing a local gathering in Bluff town square to Independence Day celebrations at Washington Monument.

        The Waitangi organisers have made a fully calculated move, and the Prime Minister has responded.

        • weka 1.2.1.1
          9 January 2017 at 10:36 am

          “in the Treaty of Waitangi grounds”

          It’s still Māori space though. Not public space in the way you are implying.

          • Ad 1.2.1.1.1
            9 January 2017 at 11:01 am

            You can try that line, but that’s just splitting hairs.
            The PM did well not to buy into games.

            • weka 1.2.1.1.1.1
              9 January 2017 at 11:22 am

              It’s not splitting hairs. Do you honestly think that tauiwi have rights on marae?

              • Ad …
                9 January 2017 at 11:45 am

                Do you remember the last time a Prime Minister decided to just suck it up, cave to whatever processes were going on at our national day celebrations, and just sit down at the speeches without the right of reply?

                It was Helen Clark.

                She had to sit there and simply get humiliated for several hours, sitting without support while speaker after speaker simply let fly to her face. Now, you may well think that you get to treat women that way, or Prime Ministers since they are grown ups. And of course television news got to greedily transmit the tears falling down her face. You like that kind of thing clearly.

                But I bet the Prime Minsiters’ Office replayed that footage for their considerations anyway.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  9 January 2017 at 12:07 pm

                  The political risks, especially in an election year, were far too high for English and his advisors to consider exposing themselves to the same.

                  • billmurray …
                    9 January 2017 at 3:16 pm

                    I agree, Bill English has made the right call, he will and should get plaudits for his stand.
                    Maori, supported by Andrew Little and others are playing silly games.
                    Stop the nonsense you drongo’s and show respect for the office of ‘ Prime Minister’.

                    • Ma Rohemo …
                      9 January 2017 at 4:30 pm

                      Most of we drongoes have little respect for the office of ‘Prime Minister’ having seen the previous PM playing silly games with it during the past 8 years.

                      Maybe our second-hand PM can earn that respect back, but he has a long way to go.

                    • Anno1701 …
                      10 January 2017 at 9:58 am

                      “Stop the nonsense you drongo’s and show respect for the office of ‘ Prime Minister’.”

                      that the funniest thing im going to read all week !!

                      thank you !!

                • weka …
                  9 January 2017 at 12:17 pm

                  I like that kind of thing?

                  Here’s my take on it. Clark wanted to speak, and as a woman she was refused (iirc, but if I also recall correctly it was more complex than that). In my opinion the humiliation isn’t from being refused, it’s from being a Pākehā woman with a fair amount of power not used to being told she can’t use that power, and it’s from a Pākehā woman thinking that her feminism trumps Māori rights on their own marae and being ignorant of how the various dynamics play out across gender in that situation. It’s a real shock to many Pākehā, including Pākehā feminists, when they come up against this.

                  Now we have two issues being conflated. One is whether tauiwi have ‘rights’ on marae, or more clearly, whether Māori who hold the mana whenua on a marae have rights on that marae to say what happens.

                  The other is whether it’s wrong for women to not be allowed to speak on some marae.

                  As a Pākehā feminist, this is how I see it,

                  Situation one, Māori have the right to say what happens on their own marae. If Bill English doesn’t like what he is allowed and not allowed to do, and decides to not go, that’s up to him. But that doesn’t mean that Māori had no right to refuse him or anyone speaking rights at a certain time/place.

                  Situation two, there is a whole history of how Pākehā feminists have gotten this wrong and have been on a learning curve. Women and men have different roles in the pōwhiri and there are important reasons for that that need to be respected. If there are problems with that, then they need to be dealt with by people who are involved in the running of protocol and that iwi/hapū, not by people from the dominant culture who are acting from their own culture not the local one and who to be really blunt are often very ignorant of what the basis of the protocols actually are. I don’t know if Clark was intentionally humiliated or not, but if she was that still doesn’t negate Māori rights to determine what happens on their marae.

                  Further, if there are gender problems in a culture, then the best way to address them is to support the politicised women of that culture. If you don’t, and you seek to impose from outside the culture, you just create more problems. Mostly I see women from within cultures dealing with these things well and we should be supporting them.

                  In general, we either support the Treaty as a partnership and allow the other partner to run their own affairs, or we practice white supremacy (call it casual racism if that helps).

                  • Guerilla Surgeon …
                    9 January 2017 at 12:34 pm

                    +1.

                  • Molly …
                    9 January 2017 at 4:29 pm

                    +1.

                    The concept of duality in Māori culture lends itself to a formal struture in powhiri that can be misconstrued.

                    Still learning, but have addressed a lot of concerns by attending a Tikanga Marae course a couple of years ago. Your comments regarding feminists ring particularly true, as that was my mindset in the past, not at all now.

                  • NewsFlash …
                    9 January 2017 at 8:10 pm

                    weka

                    Do you think that Maori culture could evolve/alter to modern day conventions where females are no longer discriminated against because of their gender? Certainly a large number of cultures globally have already made that change of equal rights, and while it may be entrenched in tradition, progressive change occurs in all cultures to reflect changing views and environments.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      9 January 2017 at 8:14 pm

                      Do you think right wing culture could evolve to modern day conventions where females are no longer discriminated against because of their gender?

                      In my opnion, it will only happen when we Pākehā put our racist bigoted right wing trash where they belong. They’re hypocrites with zero sense of personal responsibility.

                    • weka …
                      9 January 2017 at 9:05 pm

                      I think that much of Māori culture is ahead of Pākehā culture when it comes to gender. Māori women often have much more respect and power for who they are within their cultures than Pākehā women do. I also see Māori cultures adapting just fine along with the world, probably better than Pākehā.

                      Equal rights is really a low bar to be reaching for, we can do much better. Often for Pākehā women ‘equal’ means we have to fit in with the men’s way of doing things. We can see this in parliament. If parliament were decolonised from the patriarchy, we’d have childcare centres there and it would be normal to breastfeed. Not to mention we wouldn’t have that clusterfuck of a structure that is how the House operates each day. We’ve made a lot of gains for women, but much of it is still centred within a patriarchal culture.

                      I also think that a fair whack of what is perceived as sexism within Māoridom is mixed up with colonisation so it’s hard to separate out.

                      Seriously, if you want to understand gender you have to listen to what Māori women say about it.

                    • weka …
                      9 January 2017 at 9:06 pm

                      “it will only happen when we Pākehā put our racist bigoted right wing trash where they belong”

                      Where exactly would that be?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      9 January 2017 at 9:41 pm

                      A good way to recoup the external costs of hate speech is to criminalise it.

                    • Clump_AKA Sam …
                      9 January 2017 at 9:59 pm

                      Iv seen the depth men go. A monster stirs every time you put a million dollars in there hands. They won’t change. I’d like to see woman create there own industry. I always thought it wierd males would dominate the fashion industry, and girls would lay down while feminine products are marked up. That’s all change or changing now.

                    • weka …
                      9 January 2017 at 10:42 pm

                      Prison then OAB?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      10 January 2017 at 6:12 am

                      Weka, no. I’m not going to do a Rodney Hide and start second-guessing the judiciary. “In court” will do.

                    • Molly …
                      10 January 2017 at 8:32 am

                      Just from attending one course on Tikanga Marae, a few issues that I had with the issue of women speaking was addressed.

                      What became clear to me (and I am still learning and don’t mind being corrected) is that the powhiri has a formal structure, and it provides roles for both males and females in that structure, but when it is completed, the kaupapa of the hui can then take place. When both males and females can talk.

                      The formal powhiri is about balance:
                      Hosts – visitors
                      Ancestors – descendants
                      Spirit – body
                      Past – present
                      Tapu – Noa
                      And yes – male and female

                      The formal process takes all these concepts from esoteric to mundane in the course of the powhiri. Where the calling of the visitors (and their spiritual ancestors) are woven into a cohesive whole with the hosts which ends with the mundane bodily action of eating and drinking.

                      When it is complete, the kaupapa – or purpose – of the hui, is then informal and can be structured however the organisers determine.

                  • Gabby …
                    9 January 2017 at 10:35 pm

                    I’m sure the Catholic Church hierarchy agrees heartily.

                    • Brutus Iscariot …
                      10 January 2017 at 3:49 pm

                      Ah yes. “Different gender roles in Maori culture”.

                      Kind of like white culture in the 1950s where a woman’s role was as a mother and homemaker first and foremost.

                      TLDR is that it’s actually more racist and paternalistic to deny others rights by playing the “culture card”.

        • Carolyn_nth 1.2.1.2
          9 January 2017 at 4:48 pm

          Comparing Trudeau’s visit to an isolated indigenous reserve with the primary national ceremony in the Treaty of Waitangi grounds is like comparing a local gathering in Bluff town square to Independence Day celebrations at Washington Monument.

          Exactly. As far as I’m aware, there is no equivalent to invitations to Te Tii Marae on Waitangi Day

          And also note, there are other events at Waitangi on 6 Feb, that PMs can attend and speak.

        • simbit 1.2.1.3
          9 January 2017 at 6:00 pm

          Depends on status if First Nation land/community. Treaties in Nth America were Nation-to-Nation, irresponsible of geographical location.

    • Ken 1.3
      9 January 2017 at 11:16 pm

      Can you think of another country that has powhiri?

  2. Carolyn_nth 2
    9 January 2017 at 9:40 am

    Yep. The PM and his government have plenty of other opportunities to speak – they seem to get a pretty big share of (favourable to them) space in the MSM.

  3. Brutus Iscariot 3
    9 January 2017 at 9:51 am

    It’s not about the individual being Nat/Lab/Green/Brown/White/Yellow, it’s about respect for the Office of Prime Minister.

    • Carolyn_nth 3.1
      9 January 2017 at 9:55 am

      The commemoration of Te Tiriti is the focus of the day – it’s about respect for Te Tiriti, and to the manu whenua of the land.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2
      9 January 2017 at 9:56 am

      Why doesn’t English respect the office of Prime Minister enough to shut up and listen?

      • NewsFlash 3.2.1
        9 January 2017 at 8:36 pm

        Hey OAB

        This is NOT a racist rant, the whole world has changed, many traditions have been replaced/changed or altered to reflect these changes, discrimination against anyone has become unacceptable in most cases, this doesn’t mean discrimination doesn’t still exist.

        As you are aware, discrimination against women still does exist in our society, and in more ways than just a pay gap, until you become female in todays society, you will never know the extent!

        • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2.1.1
          9 January 2017 at 9:27 pm

          Your conceit that you are in a position to dictate acceptable expressions of culture is the very essence of racism.

          • NewsFlash 3.2.1.1.1
            9 January 2017 at 9:54 pm

            Your misplaced anger!

            Your conceit.

            Try reading it again, the question was around women not being able to speak at certain parts of the ceremony, because they are women and for no other reason.

            You, as pakeha male have never been the victim of racial abuse or discrimination, so you can get off you high horse and start acting like a human being, your assertions and assumptions mean you are the bigoted racist here.

            Where did dictate come from? It was a simple question, directed at weka as I hold her opinion in high regard, she has responded and I thank her very much, and further more agree with most of her comments, having witnessed examples my self.

            Get a life

            • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2.1.1.1.1
              10 January 2017 at 6:25 am

              Simply put, gender discrimination is not unique to Māoritanga. Motes and beams. And conceit.

              I may not have been the target of racism, I have certainly experienced enough of it: pretty much any time there’s a group of uniformly pākehā blokes at least one of them is emboldened to express their bigotry.

              You prefaced your remarks with this:

              Do you think that Maori [sic] culture could evolve/alter to modern day conventions..?

              Can you really not see the prejudice in that question?

              • Brutus Iscariot …
                10 January 2017 at 3:56 pm

                The concept of progress is clearly not alien to you in the political sphere, so i’m not sure why it is in the cultural sphere.

                There’s no reason tut-tut and accept/allow others to remain mired in backward thinking, just because we feel guilty over historical wrongs.

                And yes, that is making a value judgement on the practices of another culture. Your reductio ad absurdum would be the acceptance of Female Genital Mutilation.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  10 January 2017 at 6:01 pm

                  The concept of progress is clearly not alien to you in the political sphere, so I’m not sure why it is in the cultural sphere.

                  It isn’t alien to me at all, False-Assertion-Boy. That’s why I like the decisions in Kristine Bartlett’s favour, and Nicky Hager’s, and Mandy Hager’s, for example.

                  The culture I’d most like to see the back of is the culture of dishonesty and prejudice. I hope that recent observations of the mechanisms behind dishonesty, for example, will help.

                  With a bit of luck, lots of sincerely-held right wing supremacist gobshite may wither and die. All your beliefs will be homeless 😆

                  • Brutus Iscariot …
                    11 January 2017 at 10:17 am

                    Let me restate plainly:

                    You buy into the concept of “progress” in politics. You believe in a better future enabled by positive reforms of society, improving the lot of those denied rights (via economic and other forms of oppression). You believe that your beliefs and values are inherently superior to the existing conservative/Tory/neoliberal ones espoused by the government, and advocate for them accordingly.

                    Yet you are a cultural relativist, saying that putting a microscope on Maori practices is “racist”. I.e you are willing to overlook injustices/discrepancies in human rights in the world, so long as they aren’t perpetrated by the current primary power structures.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      11 January 2017 at 10:43 am

                      Let me restate plainly: your attempt to summarise my opinion is a complete failure.

                      Cultural progress is ubiquitous, although you can make a case that English-speaking white culture is going backwards, as white supremacists become increasingly emboldened (cf: the National Party).

                      Newsflash’s question assumes that “modern day conventions” are as stated. It is clear they are not; Pākehā bigotry, gender discrimination and other right wing values are alive and well.

                      It’s a loaded question, aimed at Māori. An attack from the moral low ground.

                      Hence my response.

    • Wainwright 3.3
      9 January 2017 at 10:04 am

      It’s not about the individual being the Prime Miniter, it’s about respect for the Treaty of Waitangi.

      — Fixed it for you.

      • R Brownlee 3.3.1
        12 January 2017 at 5:03 am

        The Treaty of Waitangi binds Maori and Pakeha into a single Nation. The leader of our nation should get to speak on that day

        William English from Southland has been prevented from speaking. Do you think he would be able to speak if instead he was Weremu Maori from Northland ?

        • Wainwright 3.3.1.1
          12 January 2017 at 9:11 am

          No it doesn’t. You should really learn about the Treaty before you make stupid comments, and you look really racist when you can’t even spell Wiremu correctly.

          • R Brownlee 3.3.1.1.1
            12 January 2017 at 2:45 pm

            I can’t spell most english words correctly and my spell check is not particularly good at spelling Maori words.

            Telling someone they can’t speak because they aren’t Maori is pretty racist IMO

            • Clump_AKA Sam 3.3.1.1.1.1
              12 January 2017 at 2:56 pm

              I’m sorry you feel that way. Do you think the PM will ever make it or nah?

            • Wainwright 3.3.1.1.1.2
              13 January 2017 at 9:30 am

              Never said you couldn’t speak, just pointed out you look like an uninformed tit.

        • framu 3.3.1.2
          12 January 2017 at 9:45 am

          “William English from Southland has been prevented from speaking.”

          how many times does it have to be said? – No, he wasnt

          • R Brownlee 3.3.1.2.1
            12 January 2017 at 2:47 pm

            “However, my office was advised I could attend the powhiri but not speak – conditions which are not acceptable to me.”

            Yes, he has been prevented from speaking

            • Clump_AKA Sam 3.3.1.2.1.1
              12 January 2017 at 4:24 pm

              We can revisit this in another year. Every one wants the PM to go. We can’t have this sort of thing happening all the time

              • R Brownlee …
                13 January 2017 at 12:26 am

                On that I agree. Hopefully this year and last year will just be the only years where the PM didn’t attend

  4. Paul 4
    9 January 2017 at 9:51 am

    Not a good look by the new PM.
    There are plenty of other opportunities to speak on 6 February.
    Wonder what the Maori Party think of his boycott of the commemoration of the most important event in our history ?

    • Pete 4.1
      9 January 2017 at 10:23 am

      Not a good look by the new PM? Get out there on the street and ask and I reckon you’d find most people think it is a good look. A very good look.

      As calculated as his non-appearance about the NZ/UN/Israel thing.

      • Paul 4.1.1
        9 January 2017 at 11:52 am

        Most people are wrong and ignorant ( in many cases wilfully).
        Some other most people lines.

        Most people support the death penalty.
        Most people get their news from the MSM.
        Most people know very little about Maori culture.

        • mpledger 4.1.1.1
          9 January 2017 at 1:41 pm

          Most people in NZ don’t support the death penalty…by some considerable margin.

          It’s different in the USA.

        • Gabby 4.1.1.2
          12 January 2017 at 9:28 am

          It’s up to us higher beings to guide the muggles to a brighter future than they deserve isn’t it Paul.

    • UpandComer 4.2
      9 January 2017 at 12:24 pm

      It’s disgraceful for the Prime Minister to be prevented from speaking on Waitangi Day in the Powhiri itself. Utterly disgraceful. Particularly given the immense largesse of the settlements undertaken by National, and the hundreds of millions of dollars that have been poured into Maori over the past 8 years. That being said, it would be a disgrace regardless of who was in government.

      • Paul 4.2.1
        9 January 2017 at 12:31 pm

        You are on the wrong political website.
        Try kiwiblog – you’ll find like minded folk there.
        Bye!

      • DoublePlusGood 4.2.2
        9 January 2017 at 1:26 pm

        “Immense largesse” – you mean, token compensation in lieu of returning a majority of the land of the country to Māori.

        • mauī 4.2.2.1
          9 January 2017 at 1:43 pm

          One of the recent treaty settlements (2016) in the Manawatu saw an iwi paid back $27 per acre taken from them. Of course they didn’t get their land back and the Government was never going to give them back Palmy North CBD or any of the highly profitable agricultural land.

      • Psycho Milt 4.2.3
        9 January 2017 at 1:52 pm

        You don’t seem to understand what “largesse” means. It certainly doesn’t mean compensation for unjust confiscation of property.

        • adam 4.2.3.1
          9 January 2017 at 2:04 pm

          I think that they perfectly know what ‘largesse’ means. It’s the language of those who feel in the right. Or more importantly, righteous. Funny how often that feeling of righteous can make people look foolish. In this case UpandComer, Psycho Milt was right on the money, pointing out you word choice.

        • Brutus Iscariot 4.2.3.2
          10 January 2017 at 4:00 pm

          Under the law that the British brought, granting them rights they never had under a culture of tribal serfdom.

          Romanticising Maori culture pre-European settlement makes as much sense as portraying the life of a medieval peasant as a happy idyll.

          • framu 4.2.3.2.1
            10 January 2017 at 4:24 pm

            what does that have to do with the articles of the treaty and subsequent breaches?

            • Brutus Iscariot 4.2.3.2.1.1
              10 January 2017 at 4:33 pm

              Given it predated Parliament and formal government in the country, the Treaty actually has no legal standing, other than which was conjured into existence by the judiciary during the 1980’s.

              Morally however, restitution for some of the more egregious injustices was required. But now despite the vast majority of “full and final” settlements having been agreed upon and concluded, there are still a rump who continue to agitate and won’t move on.

              • framu …
                10 January 2017 at 5:33 pm

                youve changed tack though – you talking something quite different at the previous comment

                “has no legal standing,” well, except for the work of the judiciary during the 1980’s. Once given legal standing – it has legal standing. We dont get to view things through a different lens from that point

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                10 January 2017 at 6:07 pm

                conjured into existence

                The law-magicians have standing and credibility, and white supremacists don’t. Sob sob.

                • framu …
                  12 January 2017 at 9:47 am

                  arent all laws “conjured into existence”?

                  or do they just float through the window from time to time? 🙂

          • Psycho Milt 4.2.3.2.2
            10 January 2017 at 9:00 pm

            Under the law that the British brought, granting them rights they never had under a culture of tribal serfdom.

            I’m sorry, was there something about my comment that made you want to smear shit under it? Get yourself some toilet paper or something, for fuck’s sake.

      • greywarshark 4.2.4
        9 January 2017 at 3:42 pm

        UpandComer
        It’s disgraceful that you come to TS to stand on a soapbox that we have provided.
        Go somewhere else and stop freeloading on our soapbox. And stop dribbling and spitting. No-one can make out what rational point you are making. Just fabricated outrage.

  5. Carolyn_nth 5
    9 January 2017 at 10:01 am

    Also the PM will be attending a meeting with Iwi leaders in Waitangi on February 3rd. Just not attending Te Tii Marae at Waitangi on the 6th.

  6. framu 6
    9 January 2017 at 10:01 am

    just a question there for those with a better memory (and knowledge of marae protocol)

    From memory, Key was refused speaking rights at a particular point in the ceremonies but a tent was available for political discussions at a later scheduled time on the day

    so – is this
    “The PM cant make a speech, all day!”
    or
    “The PM cant speak at a particular point that is set aside for matters of protocol, not politics”?

    The MSM are pretty crap at making such nuances clear

    • weka 6.1
      9 January 2017 at 10:52 am

      That’s how I remember it too. And wasn’t the speech tent where Hone Harawira was going to be speaking?

    • R Brownlee 6.2
      12 January 2017 at 5:11 am

      Traditionally the speach from the PM during the powhiri at Te Tiriti is about the issues facing the Nation. Key was prevented from speaking about TPP, which was signed several days previously, as the iwi leaders believed it would be too inflamatory to Maori.

      This year the PM can not speak at all and must select a Maori representative if he wishes to attend.

      That is a drastic change from tradition and is unacceptable to most Kiwis

      • framu 6.2.1
        12 January 2017 at 10:11 am

        yet English didnt make this argument did he

        what did bill say again?

        • R Brownlee 6.2.1.1
          13 January 2017 at 12:29 am

          “However, my office was advised I could attend the powhiri but not speak – conditions which are not acceptable to me.”

  7. James Thrace 7
    9 January 2017 at 10:20 am

    Nothing more than a dog whistle of the worst kind. Will Dame Devoy stand up and say that this is casual racism?

    After the events of the last week over Mad Butcher and the Boag’s coffee coloured comments, I would have expected that the PM would have at the least attended on 6 Feb and let politics be for a change.

    Like framu said, the nuance is not clear whether Blingish can’t speak at all, or can’t speak at a certain point.

    Methinks this will not go down well.

    • BM 7.1
      9 January 2017 at 10:56 am

      Methinks this will not go down well.

      With who?, I think you’ll find his stance will go down very well with most of NZ.

      Rightly or wrongly there’s a perception amongst many New Zealanders that Maori see themselves above the law and that everyone else needs to kowtow to their every whim and demand.

      This not allowing the PM to speak just helps to reinforce the above viewpoint, especially after the Mad butcher debacle.

      • weka 7.1.1
        9 January 2017 at 11:01 am

        “most of NZ”

        Yeah, right. A big chunk of NZ don’t care or don’t know what is going on. Of those that do know and do care one way or the other, I’d say it would be spread across a range of opinions, because that’s what NZ is like.

        “Rightly or wrongly there’s a perception amongst many New Zealanders that Maori see themselves above the law and that everyone else needs to kowtow to their every whim and demand.”

        Nice bit of casual racism there BM.

        • garibaldi 7.1.1.1
          9 January 2017 at 11:17 am

          Maori don’t see themselves above the law, they experience themselves being trampled by the law.

        • UpandComer 7.1.1.2
          9 January 2017 at 12:28 pm

          He’s absolutely right. National have accelerated treaty claims and poured unprecedented money and time into Maori and it seems to have been treated with contemptuous complacent entitlement. Being barred from speaking in the Powhiri and relegated like some Plebian city councillor to speak in a tent outside is shameful. It’s disgraceful conduct by the local iwi. Bill has been nothing but utterly respectful and courteous to Maori and carried water for them, and is now treated like this. The pendulum has obviously swung a little bit far and the Tangata Whenua need to understand they’re New Zealanders first.

          • James Thrace 7.1.1.2.1
            9 January 2017 at 12:36 pm

            “National have accelerated treaty claims and poured unprecedented money and time into Maori”

            Excuse me?

            National don’t “accelerate” treaty claims. It’s the Waitangi Tribunal that hear the claims, and I believe, make the recommendation.

            All that has happened is that Maori got the hurry up to lodge their claims by the then Labour government, and what we are seeing now is the start of the long tail of treaty claims having been heard in the tribunal and having their settlement recommendations met.

            It’s certainly nothing to do with “National accelerating treaty claims”.

            If Blinglish doesn’t want to learn a bit more about the kaupapa of the nation and hear the hurt and injustices that Maori still encounter every. single. day in NZ, then he obviously doesn’t give a shit.

          • framu 7.1.1.2.2
            9 January 2017 at 1:27 pm

            go and read mickey savages comment down page @ 11

          • billmurray 7.1.1.2.3
            9 January 2017 at 3:36 pm

            BM and UpandComer,
            In my opinion you are both right, because Little is running down the Bill English the Prime Minister on this matter, it will cost Labour big time in the polls.
            So it should this is not Labour principle, IMO this is Labour and others on this blog expressing their usual drongo hatred of the National party.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.1.2.4
            9 January 2017 at 8:05 pm

            Jawohl, Herr Unterlugenscheissekopf.

      • Robert Guyton 7.1.2
        9 January 2017 at 1:10 pm

        “Rightly or wrongly”
        Which do you think it is, BM?

      • Paul 7.1.3
        9 January 2017 at 1:12 pm

        ‘Most of NZ’ supported the Imperial War of 1914 – 1918
        ‘Most of NZ’ supported the Springbok tour
        ‘Most of NZ’ support bene bashing

        ‘Most of NZ’ sources their news through the msm.

        ‘Most of NZ’ are either wilfully or unknowingly ignorant on a wide variety of issues.
        Most of NZ’ are either wilfully or unknowingly ignorant about Maori culture and protocols.

      • framu 7.1.4
        9 January 2017 at 1:37 pm

        “This not allowing the PM to speak”

        there is a slight problem in that he is allowed to speak at the appropriate time

        so whos playing who for suckers here?

      • simbit 7.1.5
        9 January 2017 at 7:05 pm

        Above the law? Nah. We know the law watches us waaaay more attentively than Pakeha…

        • BM 7.1.5.1
          9 January 2017 at 7:17 pm

          Why do you reckon that is?

          • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.5.1.1
            9 January 2017 at 9:30 pm

            Bigotry. Like yours, for example.

          • framu 7.1.5.1.2
            10 January 2017 at 9:40 am

            well youve said most maori are fine – so why do you reckon?

            • BM 7.1.5.1.2.1
              10 January 2017 at 9:59 am

              There is a chunk of Maori who do believe that because they are Tangata Whenua the law does not apply to them, they are the oppressed people of the land living under the yolk of the colonial oppressor, blah, blah, blah etc

              Unfortunately, they seem to get a disproportionate amount of air time which gives the impression that this is a widespread attitude amongst Maori.

              • Clump_AKA Sam …
                10 January 2017 at 11:47 am

                It’s comments like thes why its called whing day

              • framu …
                10 January 2017 at 3:54 pm

                so you will join the rest of us in condemning English for leveraging that false impression in order to score political points then?

  8. mickysavage 8
    9 January 2017 at 10:41 am

    Helen declined to attend and I seem to recall English, who was then leader of the opposition, giving her a hard time. Anyone recall the same?

    • Adrian Thornton 8.1
      9 January 2017 at 10:49 am

      Yes well Helen like Bill are both Free market ideologues, hence both the enemy of indigenous peoples ( and the country as a whole in my view ) in the long term, so it should be of no surprise that there were, and still are, these tensions with Maori and the political establishment.
      So there should be.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 8.2
      9 January 2017 at 10:53 am

      That being so, it would be interesting to see who defended her decision at the time. Google advanced search not providing any help at present 🙂

    • Carolyn_nth 8.3
      9 January 2017 at 11:15 am

      According to the NZ History website, Helen Clark stopped going to Te Tii marae but did continue to visit Waitangi on Waitangi Day.

      I also have not been able to find anything about English’s response to Clark not attending Te Tii Marae.

    • mosa 8.4
      9 January 2017 at 11:24 am

      Yes you are right Mickey and Helen had a good reason after the way she was treated and she had the guts to front up knowing she would face protest to begin with.

      Key was welcomed and did face some flack outside the gate on one occasion by the Haraweiras and was “roughed up a bit ” but played the publicity to his advantage.

      The office of PM should be respected but it does not apply at Waitangi and never has but then Key himself has done a lot of damage to the “office” by the way he has behaved in the last eight years.

      Not sure if English criticized her but there was flak from her non attendance.

    • Banjo 8.5
      9 January 2017 at 1:51 pm

      There is mention of it in this TVNZ article from 2002:

      “Opposition leader Bill English says he is not surprised by the Prime Minister’s decision to return to Waitangi.

      English, who will also be at Waitangi marae for the celebrations, says the country’s leader should be at Waitangi on the national day.”

      http://tvnz.co.nz/content/76457/2483318.html

      • Banjo 8.5.1
        9 January 2017 at 2:01 pm

        Bill English also made mention of Helen Clark’s no show in 2003:

        “Hon BILL ENGLISH: She is not a morning person, so she could not turn up then! That is the level of debate. We had a wonderful service in the beautiful grounds of Waitangi on the morning of Waitangi Day, in the meeting house, which has carved into its walls the stories of the iwi of New Zealand, and the leader of our country said: “I’m not going. I’m not a morning person.” But who did she send? She sent the Hon Chris Carter. She sent the water boy. It was one of those occasions that happens very rarely in life.”

        Hansard

      • Cinny 8.5.2
        9 January 2017 at 3:54 pm

        Boom, there it is. Good work Banjo.

        So if a Labour PM does not want to appear, English gives them a hard time, even going so far as to say ..

        “the country’s leader should be at Waitangi on the national day.”

        But now English is PM it’s a whole different story. I see right wing blogs etc super supportive of the outgoing PM, does their blog history show the same when Aunty did it?

        If I remember correctly Aunty was not allowed to speak at all because of her gender.

        Outgoing PM English is a hypocrite, I wonder if TVNZ will tell the full story on the news tonight, after all the evidence is in their archives.

        • mosa 8.5.2.1
          9 January 2017 at 4:16 pm

          Chances are TVNZ wont report this factually , most of them don’t even know where the archive is or what it is.

          Or that NZ did pre exist before John Key.

    • Gabby 8.6
      9 January 2017 at 10:38 pm

      Neither is exactly a paragon of honesty.

  9. mauī 9
    9 January 2017 at 10:54 am

    Looks like another case of a disappearing New Zealand PM.

    That’s one way to piss off Northern Māori.

    • Colonial Viper 9.1
      9 January 2017 at 3:20 pm

      Consider it a gift to Winston

      • billmurray 9.1.1
        9 January 2017 at 3:41 pm

        CV, I believe you may have hit the nail, watch the polls taken after today.

      • bwaghorn 9.1.2
        9 January 2017 at 6:28 pm

        because they are all nat voters normally right?

        • Colonial Viper 9.1.2.1
          9 January 2017 at 6:35 pm

          A sarcastic comment or a serious one? English and the National campaign team are already preparing to position hard ahead of the election. You can see this signalling as much as I can.

          • bwaghorn 9.1.2.1.1
            10 January 2017 at 7:02 am

            a bit of both , the only people pissed off about english not going are not going to vote nats ever, english going would be more likely to get votes for one nation winston

  10. Leftie 10
    9 January 2017 at 11:15 am

    What speaking dispute?

    “But his refusal has come as a surprise to Waitangi organiser and NZ First MP Pita Paraone, who says he is not aware of any decision to revoke speaking rights.”

    “But that is in direct contrast to a decision by Ngapuhi elders in November to return speaking rights to then prime minister Mr Key.”

    “Mr Paraone told NZ Newswire he wasn’t aware that anything had changed since that decision.”

    “That’s certainly a surprise to me and I’ve been talking with the people of the marae… in fact they were planning to welcome him and the government,” he said.”

    <a href="https://nz.news.yahoo.com/top-stories/a/33746172/pm-wont-be-going-to-waitangi/#page1

    • Leftie 10.1
      9 January 2017 at 11:41 am

      So, what’s the real reason why caretaker PM Bill English won’t attend?

      • Pete 10.1.1
        9 January 2017 at 3:55 pm

        The real reason will be something to do with polling by Farrar.

      • Cinny 10.1.2
        9 January 2017 at 3:58 pm

        Fear of the pink dildo?
        Sensitive Ego?
        Not wanting Media to show that him and his outgoing government is disliked?
        Exposure of his boring speeches at an event attended by a huge number of media?
        He really does have nothing to say, no new ideas and no direction?
        He’s lost his mojo without Key?

        All of the above.. check

        • PMC 10.1.2.1
          9 January 2017 at 4:32 pm

          He’s certainly lost his mojo without Key. All the talk of English being “a different person” from how he was in 2002 is just rubbish. The nats really blew it putting English in there. You’d think they’d have learned from history.

    • mickysavage 10.2
      9 January 2017 at 11:44 am

      I suspect it is calculated. If the organisers now invite Bill and confirm speaking rights and he changes his mind it makes him appear strong.

      • Psycho Milt 10.2.1
        9 January 2017 at 1:48 pm

        Yes – they can let him peddle the lie and stoke Kiwiblog-reader outrage against Maori, or they can confirm he has speaking rights and make it look like big tough Bill stared them down. As racism harnessed for political purposes, it makes Brash at Orewa look clumsy in comparison.

        • Paul 10.2.1.1
          9 January 2017 at 2:14 pm

          While Peter Leitch’s racism was casual, this appears to be deliberate race baiting.
          Ugly by English.

  11. mickysavage 11
    9 January 2017 at 12:41 pm

    Jo Moir has released the email correspondence relating to the request (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/88223249/pm-bill-english-wont-attend-waitangi-day-commemorations).

    The proposal was a conventional powhiri with Maori representatives speaking on behalf of the Government and then “at the conclusion of the powhiri process we will provide a stage and forum for the Prime Minister to engage with Ngapuhi, address the nation and talk politics freely and uninhibited, if he so wishes.”

    Contrast this with:

    “… my office was advised I could attend the powhiri but not speak – conditions which are not acceptable to me.”

    Spot the difference …

    • weka 11.1
      9 January 2017 at 12:50 pm

      Yep. Sounds similar to last year.

    • lprent 11.2
      9 January 2017 at 1:38 pm

      Time to start the list of “Lies of Bill English PM”?

      • adam 11.2.1
        9 January 2017 at 1:45 pm

        It just shows how little in the way this national government has a moral compass, when Iprent’s comment does not look cynical, but practical.

        • Paul 11.2.1.1
          9 January 2017 at 1:53 pm

          Love to see how English squares such duplicity and his support of an economic cult that has brought poverty and inequality to NZ with his God who said ‘love thy neighbour’ and ‘it is not possible to love God and money.’

          English needs to listen to his boss Francis a bit more on matters of social justice.

    • mauī 11.3
      9 January 2017 at 2:43 pm

      So because English can’t go all William Hobson and talk right through the pōwhiri he’s packing a sad. Fu.. maybe someone should say to him its not supposed to be a reenactment.

  12. swordfish 12
    9 January 2017 at 1:55 pm

    Wedge Politics in Election Year. Who would’ve thunk it ?

    Faint echo of Orewa 2004 ?

    • Paul 12.1
      9 January 2017 at 2:10 pm

      Stuff only run political stories if it favours their owners.
      And they are leading with this story.
      Bill is appealing to the red necks and the dark underbelly of NZ racism here.
      Peter Leitch was casual.
      Bill English is deliberate.

      https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/88223249/pm-bill-english-defends-waitangi-day-noshow-says-kiwis-cringe-at-protests

      • Paul 12.1.1
        9 January 2017 at 2:22 pm

        The Herald are running an almost headline about ‘Kiwis cringing,
        Corporate media lining up behind our racist PM.
        Race baiting politics is not pretty.

        http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11778914

        • mlpc 12.1.1.1
          9 January 2017 at 2:37 pm

          Actually, most Kiwis do cringe when they see the posturing that goes on at Waitangi.
          To most Kiwis, 6 Feb is just Maori Grievance Day.
          ANZAC Day is the real New Zealand national holiday.

          • Paul 12.1.1.1.1
            9 January 2017 at 2:50 pm

            Why?
            ANZAC Day is rapidly becoming a cover for armchair warriors, forgetting the real message from WW1. Forget the mindless slaughter, remember the glory, the patriotism, the bravery, the nationalism. Easier then to persuade the plebs that what you’re doing in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya is ok. It’s called poppy fascism in the UK.

            Is the fitting way to commemorate this country the signing of a treaty between 2 peoples, starting their journey together, for good or for bad?
            Or is it the failed invasion of another country on the other side of the world as part of an imperial war?

            • Paul Campbell 12.1.1.1.1.1
              10 January 2017 at 12:25 am

              This isn’t new the RSA were all rah rah about the Vietnam war back in the day and used Anzac Day to push the line that a turn in the army was what was needed to “fix” today’s youth …. I spent my teenage years with the spectre of the draft hanging over me, an ongoing kind of existential dread, I was lucky they cancelled the draft ballot just months before I turned 18.

              I have no particular love or reverence for Anzac Day, it’s been used as an excuse to lure young people towards their deaths for as long as I can remember

          • Paul 12.1.1.1.2
            9 January 2017 at 2:53 pm

            I’m assuming you are therefore pakeha.
            I wonder if you would have any ‘grievances’ if another people came from the other side of the planet and stole your land?
            I guess not.

            • Clump_AKA Sam 12.1.1.1.2.1
              9 January 2017 at 3:08 pm

              Maori concept of land is different if not widely acknowledge. Maori protocol of land is no one owns it, which is something iwi leaders get wrong all the time. Pakeha property rights which is the belief that the government might come in and take there hard work with a writ. There’s an obvious gulf in that, if we look into it and have a good look we might come to better arrangements.

            • Red 12.1.1.1.2.2
              9 January 2017 at 3:50 pm

              Ok Paul you can leave and donate your house to who ever FFS the history of the human race is one of colonisation and population movement, including Maori own colonisation of nz or inter tribal war and dominance At the end of the day if you go back far enough ethnicity has no meaning we all originally have the same ancestors, not to mention Maori beat European here by a few hundred years, a blip in human history and meaningless over the age of nz itself

          • framu 12.1.1.1.3
            9 January 2017 at 4:53 pm

            “To most Kiwis, 6 Feb is just Maori Grievance Day.”

            yeah thats a real cringe – considering how staggeringly inaccurate it is.

            face it – the biggest noise on waitangi is from pakeha – the great white whinge.

          • simbit 12.1.1.1.4
            9 January 2017 at 9:14 pm

            You’re half right: most Kiwis cringe at any ruckus. Pakeha are one of the most compliant people around, scared of their own shadows. And woe betide anyone who hints at what lies beneath…

    • Jenny Kirk 12.2
      9 January 2017 at 6:58 pm

      Yep – racist wedge politics I reckon, swordfish.

  13. Cinny 13
    9 January 2017 at 2:39 pm

    The outgoing PM is allowed to talk at Waitangi, but not where and when he would like to. All his decision shows is arrogance and a lack of respect, no matter how he tries to justify it.

  14. Jenny Kirk 14
    9 January 2017 at 5:03 pm

    Ah ! this looks to me like a cleverly manipulated response (courtesy of Crosby Textor) from the new PM to what appears to have been a genuine attempt to have a cordial powhiri at Te Tii Marae.

    Powhiri is a welcoming on – its usually traditional korero and its an acknowledgement of the hosts and the visitors.

    Te Tii Marae is not very big. It seems to me from the printed correspondence that the iwi elders decided it would be more appropriate for anyone wanting to make speeches to be heard by all that this should occur in a much bigger venue – which a marquee-sized tent would provide. That’s a reasonable response to the PM’s Office request as to what will be happening.

    And so the PM says No – I wanna speak in the actual marae whare – and if I can’t, then I won’t go ……… poor little sod – can’t get what he wants – with absolutely no courtesy shown towards his would-be hosts. He’s having a tantrum !

  15. Ross 15
    9 January 2017 at 6:15 pm

    Earlier today, Mr English said he would not attend celebrations at Waitangi after being denied speaking rights by the Te Tii Marae committee.

    AUT history professor Paul Moon says moving celebrations from Waitangi could help avoid future stand-offs.

    “Other marae don’t have any problem with the prime minister speaking,” he says.

    https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/leftist-maori-commentator-says-seymours-idea-tour-treaty-makes-sense-ck-198396

    So all that needs to happen for the PM to speak is to move celebrations away from Waitangi. It’s as uncomplicated as that.

    • BM 15.1
      9 January 2017 at 6:27 pm

      I think this is a good idea.

      I’m not a huge fan of Waitangi day, but this would certainly improve what Waitangi currently is.

      They could even make a bit of a competition out of it on Maori TV, call it something like “Party with the Pirimia” or something like that.

      All the interested Marae can enter and who can demonstrate which Marae would be the best gets to host Waitangi day plus wins a years supply of the Mad Butchers sausages.

      • Anne 15.1.1
        9 January 2017 at 6:34 pm

        … this would certainly improve what Waitangi currently is by doing away with all the grandstanding fuckwits.

        Well, this is a work in progress BM. You can only do it as the f***wts come along. We got rid of Don Brash followed by John Key and we’ll get rid of Bill English in due course.

        Edit: BM had second thoughts and changed his wording. 😉

        • BM 15.1.1.1
          9 January 2017 at 6:38 pm

          Yeah, thought I’d try and be a bit more positive.

          My posts can be a bit fluid, I tend to start typing and then change my mind half the time. 🙂

          • Chris 15.1.1.1.1
            9 January 2017 at 6:58 pm

            And the other half of the time you change your mind after the edit function runs out? Could this mean, therefore, there’s a chance that you don’t agree with most of your posts?

            • BM 15.1.1.1.1.1
              9 January 2017 at 7:16 pm

              I’ll be honest I don’t spend a tonne of time on what I write, I tend to treat my posts as part of a conversation than a debate.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 15.2
      9 January 2017 at 7:53 pm

      The PM can run his lying racist mouth anywhere he likes. I’m sure Kyle Chapman can rent a venue you’d be more comfortable in.

    • simbit 15.3
      9 January 2017 at 9:10 pm

      How does Moon know other marae wouldn’t have a problem?

      • weka 15.3.1
        9 January 2017 at 9:37 pm

        I was wondering that too.

      • Ross 15.3.2
        9 January 2017 at 10:25 pm

        Maybe he’s talked to other marae.

        “Dr Paul Moon is Professor of History at Auckland University of Technology. Among his twenty-five published books are This Horrid Practice: The Myth and Reality of Traditional Maori Cannibalism, A History of New Zealand in the Twentieth Century, a trilogy of volumes on the Tūhoe tohunga (expert) Hohepa Kereopa, as well as biographies of Governors Hobson, FitzRoy, and the Ngapuhi chief Hone Heke,  and Encounters: The Creation of New Zealand, which was shortlisted for the 2014 Ernest Scott Australasian Prize in History.”

        One of his areas of teaching is Treaty issues.

        http://www.aut.ac.nz/profiles/paul-moon

  16. Pat 16
    9 January 2017 at 8:57 pm

    The whole point is being missed. What does BE stand to gain by attending Waiting and what does he potentially risk?…think international coverage of Dildo Baggins last year.

    Māori have the right to say what happens on their own marae. If Bill English doesn’t like what he is allowed and not allowed to do, and decides to not go, that’s up to him

    With that in mind he has made the decision to play it safe with one eye on the polls and his constituents, after all there is no requirement for the PM to attend, indeed most haven’t, and the GG will be there as the Crown’s Representative.

    Like Waitangi Day, its politics folks.

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