Foreshore review dead-on

Written By: - Date published: 3:16 pm, July 1st, 2009 - 105 comments
Categories: human rights, racism - Tags:

The Foreshore and Seabed review panel have reported back with the recommendation that the law be scrapped and people be allowed to attempt to prove ownership rights over the foreshore and seabed in court as they can with any other land.

Good.

Ever since the Government issued a proclamation in 1872 to stop the Native Land Court which had been granting title to blocks of the foreshore in the Firth of Thames to iwi wanting to protect their fisheries and get slice of the gold mining action*, politicians have attempted to satisfy the rednecks by legislating away Maori property rights to the foreshore and seabed.

Let’s hope that’s done with and Maori can now have the same opportunity that anyone else would have to attempt to prove title in court.

105 comments on “Foreshore review dead-on”

  1. Smokie 1

    The Foreshore and Seabed legislation would’ve been fine, if only they’d legislated away EVERYONE’s private property rights.

    • Zetetic 1.1

      we’re a wee way from that point, smokie.

      As long as its equal either way. Better than what we’ve had.

  2. Pat 2

    Looks like that’s an aborted attempt at a mea culpa from Eddie. Don’t worry, we know what you were trying to say but couldn’t bring yourself to say it.

    Congratulations to Tariana Turia for standing by her principles.

    • Daveo 2.1

      I’m pretty sure he’s always been against the foreshore and seabed act. There’s always been a lively debate on this issue on the left. What side were you on back in 2004 Pat? Iwi/Kiwi by chance?

    • Eddie 2.2

      I opposed the Foreshore and Seabed Act from the start because it was a suck up to the rednecks. No mea cupla on my part.

      National opposed it because they didn’t like that there was a mechanism for Maori to claim some level of rights over the f&s in it.

      • Zetetic 2.2.1

        The Foreshore and Seabed Act wasn’t racist enough for the Tories like Pat. On the Right, only Act stood for equality.

        Quietly forgotten now. Of course.

      • Tim Ellis 2.2.2

        Eddie, you seem to have a problem with your timeframe. Labour supporters often claim that it was a suck up to rednecks, but the timeframe disproves this claim as a lie.

        Michael Cullen announced the legislation just a couple of days after the court judgement, sayin gthat he would legislate to overturn the judgement and remove the right of iwi to have the issue tested in Court.

        Don Brash’s Orewa speech was many months after, and was months after the hikoi.

        The rednecks suck-up argument is a convenient excuse, but it isn’t a truthful one.

        • Eddie 2.2.2.1

          Tim. you’re just showing the problem with relaying on Farrar for your facts.

          Cullen did announce an intention to legislate to settle the issue in legislation rather than have it evolve ad hoc in the courts. It was only after Don Brash’s racist Owera speech turned the polls by 15% that Labour decided it couldn’t just legislate along the lines of the court decision.

          It was in the context of the National’s race-baiting (that carried right on to Iwi/Kiwi – and you voted for that, didn’t you Tim) that Labour did its about face because it made a decision that this wasn’t an issue to die in a ditch over (not that I ever supported what they did).

          • Tim Ellis 2.2.2.1.1

            Eddie, I voted Labour in 2002. I know you are struggling with your arguments on this issue, but honestly it is just cowardly for you to hide behind your anonymity and accuse me of race-baiting.

            Labour announced within days of the decision on June 19, 2003, that they would legislate away the Court decision. Don Brash’s speech at Orewa wasn’t until January 2004.

            Labour was already intent on writing the legislation immediately after the court decision. Nice try at blaming Don Brash for it, but it isn’t truthful and it doesn’t wash.

            • Eddie 2.2.2.1.1.1

              “Labour announced within days of the decision on June 19, 2003, that they would legislate away the Court decision”

              No they announced an intention to legislate. Not an intention to take away the right to obtain title via court action. That came later in reaction to National’s race-baiting.

              So, you voted for Iwi/Kiwi in 2005 then? Did it turn you? Or did you just turn a blind eye to the fact you were supporting a racist party because you wanted a tax cut?

            • felix 2.2.2.1.1.2

              Tim, don’t drag up the old “you’re anonymous and I’m not” line of bullshit again. As we’ve discussed before, you’re just as anonymous as anyone else here and you’d probably like to keep it that way.

            • Tim Ellis 2.2.2.1.1.3

              So, you voted for Iwi/Kiwi in 2005 then? Did it turn you? Or did you just turn a blind eye to the fact you were supporting a racist party because you wanted a tax cut?

              Eddie, coming from a person who supported a party that willingly went into coalition with, and then proceeded to protect the worst race-baiter and bigot in the recent history of New Zealand politics, that is a new low.

              Tim, don’t drag up the old “you’re anonymous and I’m not’ line of bullshit again. As we’ve discussed before, you’re just as anonymous as anyone else here and you’d probably like to keep it that way.

              Wrong, felix. I use my real name on here. I’m not using a “you’re anonymous and I’m not” line. If Eddie wants to get personal and impugn my motives, then he should at least have the courage not to do it from a position of anonymity.

            • felix 2.2.2.1.1.4

              Tim you terminal dullard we’ve been over this many times.

              If no-one knows who you are then whether you use your real name is neither here nor there.

              You’re as anonymous as anyone else here, much less so than some.

              And before you spin this into an attack on your privacy I’m not suggesting that you identify yourself either.

              I’m simply pointing out that it’s extremely hypocritical to accuse anyone here of being anonymous when by every meaningful measure you are too.

              And that you do it whenever you’re floundering. That’s what I find funny.

            • Tim Ellis 2.2.2.1.1.5

              Felix you will just have to take my word for it that I use my real name, and I have no reason not to.

            • felix 2.2.2.1.1.6

              Still irrelevant, Tim – as explained very simply above.

              Come on Tim, we all know you’re not as thick as you’re pretending to be.

        • Daveo 2.2.2.2

          National had also been running “beaches for Kiwis” billboards as far back as when English was leader. You remember those don’t you Tim? The redneck backlash had begun, it just took the disgusting and racist Orewa speech to give it a political vehicle and frighten the government into giving in to the rednecks.

          By the way Tim, where were you at the time of the Orewa speech?

          • Tim Ellis 2.2.2.2.1

            Except your timeframe doesn’t stack up Daveo. Helen Clark announced she was going to legislate against the court decision just a couple of days after the high court decision. The government then set up a review and consultation document, which reported back at the end of 2003, with options that the government adopted. The Orewa speech wasn’t until the end of January 2004.

            I don’t remember where I was at the time of the Orewa Speech, Daveo. It was mid January, so I suspect I was probably on holiday.

      • Helen 2.2.3

        [looks like she’s been banned but it’s worth remembering this dark face of the NZ right exists so I’ll let this one through]

        suck up to the rednecks.

        It’s often difficult for reasonable people to interpret the buzzwords used by those that attend the “political education” courses offered by the Labour Party Politburo.

        Here’s a quick translation guide to make The Standard a little more understandable to reasonable people.

        “Rednecks” – Kiwis.

        “The Rich” – The employed and the law-abiding.

        “The Workers” – Welfare beneficiaries and career criminals.

        “Legitimate acts of resistance against the colonial oppressors and the bourgeois class-enemies by the heroes of the oppressed proletariat, yearning to break free” – Violent crime.

        “Crime” – Caucasians driving European cars in excess of the speed limit.

        “Social Justice” – Taking from the overburdened in order to give to the undeserving.

  3. Nick 3

    Yes, good news. It’s not a difficult issue conceptually, it only remains so politically.

  4. Tigger 4

    Great, so how will National keep the rednecks happy during the inevitable discussion over how to proceed? The proposals are all laced with mines.

    Meanwhile, my husband wants to know how soon he can start charging white people to use the beach…

  5. Nick 5

    As heard on Danny Watson’s show this afternoon (he read this text out he received):

    “No nigger is going to stop me going to the beach you nigger lover”.

    Watson was saying the report was good news etc.

  6. How Key handles this issue will be fascinating. Welcome to real politic where you actually have to make a decision and live with it.

    Either he repeals and enrages his wingnut fans or he doesn’t and the agreement with the Maori Party will then surely fail. I do not see much room in the middle of this to manoeuvre in.

    I do not see it as simply as most. The FSA did allow for an application to the High Court for recognition of an existing right. If it was recognised then there was a mechanism to either create a reserve or to seek compensation. Contrary to what some commentators have said court access was preserved although modified.

    The right to seek a “title” was taken away. I had always thought that “title” was a particularly european concept and did not think this was such a bad thing. The trouble with titles is that they can be transferred and rights alienated.

    I appreciate this is somewhat nuanced view and not in keeping with the rights/no rights arguments but I never saw the issue as simple as the debate that ranged presented it to be.

    Anyway it is now Key’s baby. Best of British to him, he will need it.

    • Maynard J 6.1

      “How Key handles this issue will be fascinating.”

      Agreed. You know, I think this will be one of Key’s strengths, a tough negotiation and balancing act, with no real ideology behind him. As long as Hide keeps well away he may just come up smelling of roses – maybe that is why he is letting Hide do Auckland, as a payoff for keeping well away from this minefield.

    • mike 6.2

      “Either he repeals and enrages his wingnut fans or he doesn’t and the agreement with the Maori Party will then surely fail”

      Poor mickey doesn’t quite get how much of a winner this is for JK and the Nats.

      Mr Pragmatic will be at his best now the emotion is gone out of this this (eg: labour gone) MP and Nats will come up with an agreement cementing beach access and customary rights – deal done + JK looks the consummate mediator yet again (anti-smacking) and we move onto 2011 with the MP happy and the hapless labour party scrambling for cover.

  7. Red Rosa 7

    The National Party allowing Maori freehold title to the foreshore and seabed? No worries. Tenure review gave South Island runholders freehold title to valuable lakeshore frontage for a pittance.

    And presumably foreshore titles would be just as valuable.

    So where is the problem?

    But somehow I think JK will not use this as precedent!

    Well said MS, it is a real minefield for Key.

  8. ak 8

    …and the govt hopes to make an initial response by late August

    Ya gotta laugh….hot kumara, anyone? Stick it on the shelf with the broadband and the bike track, Mike, something’ll turn up, trust me……

  9. vto 9

    Well that seems unsurprising. And good. That law was a complete steamroll if ever there was one. It should go to court and be tested.

    But the outcome of such a court determination would not of course also be the answer to the bigger question of whether that part of our fair land concerned should be held in that way.

    There are two issues which are quite similar but quite separate. And often muddled.

  10. Tim Ellis 10

    Poor form by the Maori Party, for making this review a core issue for its support in government with National. Not very mana-enhancing to get the foreshore and seabed issue resolved, now, is it?

    Oh hang on… that’s Labour’s line…

    Looks like the Maori Party are managing to achieve for Maori what Labour took away. If they can achieve this with a National government, then it looks like there will be a permanent break with Maori voters and the Labour Party.

    • gobsmacked 10.1

      Resolved?

      It’s just getting started. But of course Tim, you’re not really interested in the actual issue at all, are you?

      • Tim Ellis 10.1.1

        Yes I am interested in the actual issue gobsmacked. Labour’s foreshore and seabed legislation in 2003 and 2004 was a major point of grievance for many Maori. It alienated Maori from the Labour Party, I believe permanently. The time since then, and in particular Labour referring to the Maori Party as the “last cab off the rank” and favouring a coalition with Winston Peters, the biggest race-baiter of modern politics, ahead of the Maori party showed Labour’s true colours.

        John Key is a pragmatist. I think New Zealanders have moved on from the divisive debates of 2003-2005, which were in a large part fuelled by Labour’s decision on the foreshore and seabed legislation. It will be great to have a solution that is acceptable to all parties.

        There were a number of left wing commentators, including some writers on this blog, who said that a deal between the Maori Party and National would not last. Mr Pierson said that the redneck element in the National Party wouldn’t allow a deal with the Maori Party. Mr Trotter claimed that conservative National voters would not stomach any deal with the Maori Party.

        How wrong they all were.

        Labour belatedly wants to come to the table on this, but they don’t seem to have learned the lesson not to patronise the Maori Party and Maori voters. The Maori Party has shown just how astute it is, and seems to be delivering exactly what its voters want.

        • gobsmacked 10.1.1.1

          Tim

          Why do you do this?

          Is it a) because you’re stupid (I don’t think so), or b) because you think we’re stupid (you’re wrong), or … c) because you believe that online debates are just a matter of repeating the same lies as often as possible, and “winning” because people eventually get bored and/or have lives? I reckon it’s c). So sad.

          Who did Maori vote for at the last election? You know the answer, and you know we know, and we can all play the Google game, so why lie about it?

          • Tim Ellis 10.1.1.1.1

            Maori voted for Maori Party MPs in their electorate vote in large numbers gs. I don’t see how the 2008 election can be seen as a win for Labour in the Maori seats. Have you got some other interpretation gs?

            Which part, specifically, of what I wrote above do you have a problem with?

            • gobsmacked 10.1.1.1.1.1

              Here are the results of the last election.

              At the bottom of the page are the Maori electorates.

              http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2008/electorateindex.html

              You can check each one. Maori voted Labour with their party vote, ahead of the Maori Party, and miles ahead of National. It’s a simple fact.

              Therefore, Tim’s statement that Maori are “alienated from the Labour Party” is demonstrably, entirely false.

              But you know that, and we know you know that. So I’m done with wasting my time on somebody who has no interest in good faith debate. Find some other sucker to lie to.

            • Pascal's bookie 10.1.1.1.1.2

              Which part, specifically, of what I wrote above do you have a problem with?

              Seeing you asked.

              Yes I am interested in the actual issue gobsmacked.

              Good, I’d like to hear your views on it, and how they have evloved, if they have.

              Labour’s foreshore and seabed legislation in 2003 and 2004 was a major point of grievance for many Maori. It alienated Maori from the Labour Party, I believe permanently. The time since then, and in particular Labour referring to the Maori Party as the “last cab off the rank’ and favouring a coalition with Winston Peters, the biggest race-baiter of modern politics, ahead of the Maori party showed Labour’s true colours.

              Oh. That’s not the issue, that’s a bunch of partisan horse shit.

              Obviously Labour’s legislation was a point of grievance. Not so much that Labour couldn’t get 70,000 list votes in 08 though. Perhaps they remember iwi/kiwi. Can you explain that billboard for me Tim? I’ve asked many a Nat, and yet to get an answer. It somehow fitted in with ‘mainstream’.

              What was Nationals policy about the f&s that Labour’s was the alternative to Tim? What was the policy on this issue of the party that you voted for? I’m sure you’ll be keen to relate, seeing your interest in the issue. Tell us about your thought processes over that time. Were you on any hikoi? What did you think about those that were?

              Do you think Brash would have refused a deal with WP? Do you think Brash was not a race baiter? He himself has expressed his regrets about it if I recall.

              Just so you don’t get confused by all those questions, I guess I can some them up by asking one last one that I’d like to hear the answer to, and you can use the above as a guide to the sorts of issues invloved.

              Seeing you are interested in this issue, what was National’s policy on it at the time, did you vote for it, and why do you think they changed, if they have?

          • felix 10.1.1.1.2

            Timmy writes for the lurkers. He repeats himself when he knows he’s wrong because he doesn’t care whether his arguments are reasonable.

            His goal is to fill the threads with national party talking points for the consumption of the casual readers.

            He assumes that casual readers aren’t going to follow a thread from start to finish so he doesn’t really care how inconsistent his comments are.

            In short he’s not really debating with you at all – he’s just spamming the threads.

            And yeah, it’s pretty sad.

            • Tim Ellis 10.1.1.1.2.1

              That’s right, felix, and I’m a National Party researcher working in Wellington, paid to feed talking points to, oh… I forget how your story goes. It’s very repetitive.

            • felix 10.1.1.1.2.2

              No, you’re a lowly auditor working in a bank. Who spends all day repeating national party talking points on several blogs.

              (Now you attack me for being “anonymous”.)

    • Tim

      The wingnuts will be in a frenzy if Key scraps the law. Good luck to him. His lot stirred them up. They can now deal with it.

      You should go over to kiwiblog land and make those sorts of comments there and then see what response you get.

      BTW Labour still did well with maori party votes. And after what has happened over the past 6 months I am sure that support for Labour has increased.

      • Tim Ellis 10.2.1

        BTW Labour still did well with maori party votes. And after what has happened over the past 6 months I am sure that support for Labour has increased.

        None of the polls are saying that micky.

        • Zetetic 10.2.1.1

          There haven’t been any public polls of party vote support among Maori,brainiac.

          • Tim Ellis 10.2.1.1.1

            So you’ve confirmed Zetetic that none of the polls support Micky’s contention that support for Labour has increased among Maori. Thanks, brainiac.

            What the polls do say is that support by voters nationwide for National is considerably higher than it was at the time of the election. In which case, it would be counter-intuitive to assume that support for Labour had increased among Maori, unless there was specific evidence supporting this contention.

            • Zetetic 10.2.1.1.1.1

              micky was speculating on the Maori vote. You said none of the polls say that but none of the polls are on point. So your statement doesn’t invalidate micky’s speculation at all. Has micky got proof? No but you don’t have proof for the opposite either despite your attempt to pretend the polls that have been published provide some kind of proof.

        • mickysavage 10.2.1.2

          Tim

          Check out the results for the Mt Albert byelection. According to the polls it ought to have been really really close.

          What was the result again?

          Can you remind me?

          • Tim Ellis 10.2.1.2.1

            The only Mt Albert polls I saw micky showed a very wide gulf between the Labour and National candidate. The Mount Albert polls turned out to be quite accurate.

      • mike 10.2.2

        do you mean national reviewing and soon scrapping the racist law that labour brought in – is that why maori are flocking back to labour is it mickey?

        Most ‘rednecks’ you are referring to were just mainstream NZers sick of nanny labour and it’s thieving socialist ways – they will not mind JK making a pragmatic decision. National can only gain votes from this – they knew this would be the outcome of the review when they signed up to it.

        Remember they did not need the MP to govern but chose them as a partner.

        • Zetetic 10.2.2.1

          The rednecks are the ones who National won over with their iwi/kiwi campaign. Do you think they’ve got less racist now?

          The good news is that now National has given up the race-baiting Labour doesn’t have to try to appease the rednecks so we can get rid of this law with unanimous support.

  11. vto 11

    And eddie surely this post is proof again that the red in redneck is, contrary to popular opinion, reference to labour voters.

    • gobsmacked 11.1

      “Proof” in your dictionary being defined as “XQZZZCVG<G; hubbedy guppity plop"

      You can be embarrassed by Brash, Ansell and the Orewa-utangs, but you can't just wish them away.

    • Zetetic 11.2

      Redneck was a term given to English yeoman colonists in colonial America. They would get red necks from working outside. More intense sun of the colonies than they were used back in England. These yeomen were renowned for their reactionary, conservative, and racist attitudes.

      Their cultural descendants constitute the Republican base.

      • vto 11.2.1

        Yes well times have moved on. Today the red in redneck infers labour voters. Otherwise why would eddie say … “politicians have attempted to satisfy the rednecks by legislating away Maori property rights to the foreshore and seabed” if Helen hadn’t been thinking, as always, about the vote.

        Eddie is proof. So there gobsmacked – do I have to spell everything out for the small bwains?

        And ffs zit, why am I talking to you for after that early morning calamity today..

        • Zetetic 11.2.1.1

          because you love it vto. Don’t lie to yourself.

          The rednecks are the 15% who switched to National went they went racist.

        • Pascal's bookie 11.2.1.2

          Good oh. Perhaps you can explain those iwi/kiwi billboards then vto.

          I was labeled a hater and/or a wrecker back then, so that’s how I felt. Where were you, politically speaking? Where was National?

          This attempt to put National’s rhetoric and scare-mongering down the memory hole is breathtaking. But seriously, it seems to me that you can only do so if you don’t actually care about the issue.

  12. Murray 12

    Good It was just a stupid racist act dreamed up by labour rednecks

    • Zetetic 12.1

      It was a law dreamed up to appease the rednecks who were flowing to National in droves on the back of National’s ‘iwi/kiwi-style race-baiting. National didn’t think it was racist enough that’s why they voted against it.

      • Tim Ellis 12.1.1

        Zetetic, again just because you keep repeating that doesn’t make it true. Labour announced its plans to legislate months before Don Brash made the Orewa speech.

        • Zetetic 12.1.1.1

          and you had that explained to you up above.

          can you tell me why the Tories voted against the Act? Can you admit that they thought it was too generous to Maori?

        • Pascal's bookie 12.1.1.2

          The Orewa speech was hardly National’s first damn comments on Maori issues Tim. Stop stuffing ‘uncomfortable’ shit down the memory hole.

          What was National’s reaction to the court decision?

          Here’s a story for ya:

          http://tvnz.co.nz/content/214114

          It’s about reaction to Labour’s announced intentions. Bill English and Winston Peters are saying pretty much the same thing.

          also this:

          http://tvnz.co.nz/content/205607

  13. Red Rosa 13

    Well, that’s cleared the air.

    National will repeal the Act, and ensure Maori get freehold title and/or exclusive access to the foreshore and seabed. Otherwise, what do they get?

    Or is there something I am missing?

    • Lew 13.1

      Red Rosa,

      You’re missing something. I think what you’re missing is having read the actual document, rather than the thread on The Standard.

      L

  14. Lew 14

    Actually, Eddie, while I agree with your title and the overall argument, the post is just wrong.

    The Foreshore and Seabed review panel have reported back with the recommendation that the law be scrapped

    This bit is right.

    and people be allowed to attempt to prove ownership rights over the foreshore and seabed in court as they can with any other land.

    This bit isn’t. This described the so-called “judicial option”, option 1 which the panel considered, and which they explicitly didn’t recommend. Instead, they recommended a “mixed” model encompassing aspects of the other three potential models:

    Option 4: The “mixed’ model. We favour a “mixed’ model. It combines a number of discrete components: a national settlement, allocation of rights and interests, local co-management, and an ability to gain more specific access and use rights. This model takes as its starting point that entitled Māori (i.e. those hapÅ« and iwi with traditional interests in the coastal marine area) have some form of customary or tikanga title to all of the foreshore and seabed and that the public also have interests in access and navigation over this key area. A mixed model of this kind appears to be the preferred option of those who made submissions to the Panel.

    This is on page 11 of the summary. I haven’t yet read the full document (hope to have time over the weekend).

    It’s an important distinction, because the judicial model, while it could have worked in the initial case (before the Act), after the fact it does not provide very much certainty, and no grounds for wider reconciliation on the matter. This last is the most important aspect of the review, in my view: it is focused on reconciliation as well as on redress and recognition of rights. It is a compromise solution; a mutual second-best, not an ideologically-bound all-or-nothing solution of the type Labour constructed and Brash’s National party favoured.

    L

    • Eddie 14.1

      I only had a chance to read the report in the Herald. Should have written that sentence without ‘in court’. Lucky we’ve got you Lew.

      • Lew 14.1.1

        Well, no, the whole second bit is wrong. It’s not going to be about “proving ownership rights”; that’s only a part of it. Details matter.

        But as I said: hooray!

        L

        Captcha: ‘crowned President’

        • Eddie 14.1.1.1

          ‘details matter’ . maybe on kiwipolitico, Lew 🙂

          well, i can’t see how even in the other option iwi are going to get rights recognised without proving them.. and i confess I still haven’t read the detail, but it seems impossible that the government would be allocating property rights without proof.

          • Lew 14.1.1.1.1

            Eddie,

            Surely your arguments can be both robust and right ; )

            Of course, proof will have to be part of it, but proof isn’t the hard thing to achieve – establishing a framework which will accept that proof leads to value is the holy grail here. And which will constrain the value granted such that big blocks of the foreshore and seabed can’t be sold off wholesale by a couple errant kaumatua, for instance.

            L

    • Good comment Lew

      The issue is really intricate and I believe the political debate lags way behind the legal debate.

      The “mixed model” option appeals but most of it was available under the legislation.

      If you read the Act …

      Section 33 says

      ” High Court may find that a group held territorial customary rights

      The High Court may, on the application of a group, or on the application of a person authorised by the Court to represent the group, make a finding that the group (or any members of that group) would, but for the vesting of the full legal and beneficial ownership of the public foreshore and seabed in the Crown by section 13(1), have held territorial customary rights to a particular area of the public foreshore and seabed at common law.”

      There could then be negotiation with the Crown for redress (section 37) or the establishment of a foreshore and seabed reserve and the appointment of a board of guardians to manage the reserve. The purpose of a reserve is to acknowledge the exercise of kaitakitanga by an applicant group and to permit the are to be held for the common use and benefit of the people of New Zealand.

      Also the Ngati Porou settlement recognised their rights to the foreshore in various areas. The Crown negotiation resulted in a regional settlement of issues.

      I wish the reality was as simple as the rhetoric …

      • Lew 14.2.1

        micky,

        I’m not a lawyer, but I sense there was at least as much legal uncertainty around the FSA as political uncertainty. In any case, it wasn’t a legal manoeuvre, but a political one.

        Add to which, a “reserve” is not what Māori want for the foreshore and seabed. That’s why even after signing their agreement, Ngāti Porou stated that, while it was the best deal going, it was still insufficient and they would continue to lobby for the repeal of the act.

        L

        • mickysavage 14.2.1.1

          Agreed Lew … but the legislation has lots of goodies in it …

          Section 37 of the FSA says

          … [i]f a finding is referred to the Attorney-General and Minister of Maori Affairs under section 36(1)(a), the Ministers must enter into discussions with the applicant group for the purpose of negotiating an agreement as to the nature and extent of the redress to be given by the Crown in recognition of the finding of the High Court under section 33.

          The problem is the debate is between well intentioned pakeha lawyers trying to achieve certainty and iwi trying to put into legal concepts their understanding of iwi rights to the coast. It really is vexed. What annoys some of us is that there was a well intentioned desire to resolve the matter amicably.

  15. Tim Ellis 15

    PB, you made a number of questions further up the thread.

    Obviously Labour’s legislation was a point of grievance. Not so much that Labour couldn’t get 70,000 list votes in 08 though. Perhaps they remember iwi/kiwi. Can you explain that billboard for me Tim? I’ve asked many a Nat, and yet to get an answer. It somehow fitted in with ‘mainstream’.

    I was uncomfortable with it at the time, PB, and I thought it was polarising at the time.

    What was Nationals policy about the f&s that Labour’s was the alternative to Tim? What was the policy on this issue of the party that you voted for? I’m sure you’ll be keen to relate, seeing your interest in the issue. Tell us about your thought processes over that time. Were you on any hikoi? What did you think about those that were?

    I wasn’t on any hikoi, PB. I had a number of friends and relatives who were, and I congratulated them for expressing their views. It was a challenging time, and I was thankful that they were able to express their views so peacefully. Unlike Helen Clark, I didn’t consider them to be “haters and wreckers”. I understood that they had a genuine grievance.

    I was not greatly personally affected at the time, but I understood that many Maori felt that there was a genuine grievance.

    Do you think Brash would have refused a deal with WP? Do you think Brash was not a race baiter? He himself has expressed his regrets about it if I recall.

    My understanding is that Dr Brash did not pursue a deal with WP. From people I have spoken to, he was not interested in being PM in a government that included Winston Peters. I do not believe Dr Brash was a race baiter, but I do believe he was ill-advised in pursuing the issue as strongly as he did, and I understand he has come to regret his Orewa speech as unnecessarily divisive.

    Seeing you are interested in this issue, what was National’s policy on it at the time, did you vote for it, and why do you think they changed, if they have?

    National’s policy at the time was, in my view, confused and misguided. I did not personally support it, but it was not a major issue for me personally. I think it changed because John Key saw a greater interest in forming a relationship with the Maori Party, and that settling historic grievances and putting the issue behind us was more important to him than retaining a policy that was clearly a point of major contention for Maori voters.

    I hope that helps.

    • Lew 15.1

      Tim, Brash having given and stood by the Orewa speech makes him a race-baiter.

      L

      • Lew 15.1.1

        Let’s just be clear, as well: Brash having given and stood by the speech doesn’t necessarily mean he, personally, in his heart of hearts, is racist, or a race-baiter. He was playing a role. But that’s a role you can’t play without a little bit of it rubbing off on you, and he knew the role he was playing and played it well.

        It was all bullshit, mind – John Johansson’s Orewa and the Rhetoric of Illusion paper nicely illustrates how. It seems to have been taken off the interwebs, but I’m sure if you email Jon he’d be happy to e you a copy, if you’re interested in, you know, studying the issue.

        L

        • Anita 15.1.1.1

          Lew,

          Do you believe it would have been possible for Brash to have given that speech if he had no racism in him? I will happily agree that the speech wasn’t motivated by racism, but I just can’t believe someone who was truly not racist would have gone there.

          • Lew 15.1.1.1.1

            Anita,

            Everyone has some racism in them, it just takes the right set of circumstances to bring it out.

            I found this out while living in Asia. It’s frightening.

            So while not saying Brash was free from racism, it seems likely that it was more an opportunistic thing than a dedicated and calculated part of his political or ideological core as it is for, say, Kyle Chapman.

            L

            • felix 15.1.1.1.1.1

              It’s very difficult when listening to Dr Brash speaking on certain issues to not notice some deeply racist assumptions behind his thought processes.

              All that really weird stuff he used to say about how Maoris can, sometimes, with the right training, be just as smart as, you know, normal people.

              However I don’t think he had any idea at the time just how deeply racist some of his views were.

    • Pascal's bookie 15.2

      Not much I’m afraid.

      I asked what the iwi/kiwi billboards meant, and you say that they made you uncomfortable, and that you thought them polarising.

      That’s not an answer, but it implies one I suppose. I had one in view of workplace for well over a month. It made me angry Tim. And yes it was deliberately polarising. That’s why it made me angry. I didn’t think Don was a racist, and yet there was that billboard in all it’s ‘uncomfortable’ glory. Day after day. Not being a racist, but pandering to them for electoral gain is the very definition of race baiting, is it not?

      It’s a shame that you never mentioned this campaign when saying that Labour was to blame for much of the negativity of that year.

      Don Brash signed off on that campaign Tim. He was the Leader. It was his call. His regrets after losing, I am sad to say, don’t excuse him at all. He knew at the time what he was doing, and thought it worthwhile. And it wasn’t just on this issue. The whole campaign was based on dividing the nation into ‘mainstream’ and ‘other’. If it is true that national’s positions were purely based on vote gathering, rather than any principle, that makes it worse Tim. Not better. It means that they deliberately went with that ‘uncomfortable’ stuff to cause division. I’m glad I suppose that it made you ‘uncomfortable’ though.

      I still wonder how Don would have followed through on that rhetoric had he won. I think we dodged a bullet.

      edit: shorter bookie: ‘what Lew said’.

    • Eddie 15.3

      “I did not personally support it,” you voted for it, so you did personally support it but you were willing to support racism because you wanted a tax cut.

      • Tim Ellis 15.3.1

        By that logic Eddie you supported Winston Peters, because Helen Clark and Michael Cullen defended him.

        That is silly logic Eddie. I’m not a National Party member, let alone a member of caucus. I can, and choose to disagree with National Party policies frequently. You might want to try it sometime. It’s quite liberating.

  16. Tim Ellis 16

    It’s a shame that you never mentioned this campaign when saying that Labour was to blame for much of the negativity of that year.

    I was referring PB to Eddie’s claim that the Foreshore and Seabed act was a suck-up to rednecks, that it was an inevitable consequence of Dr Brash’s race baiting. I pointed out that claim as false, since Labour clearly intended to legislate as it did, long before Dr Brash gave his Orewa speech.

    Labour knew it was going to upset many Maori from the moment the Court decision came out. It had nothing to do with Dr Brash.

    I was saddened by Dr Brash’s Orewa speech, because the National Party, particularly with Doug Graham and Jim Bolger, had gone a long way towards healing the divisions of the past, and I considered the Orewa speech to have undone a lot of that.

    There is another contextual point to note, which I think is valid. There was a genuine sense amont a sizeable degree of non-Maori that the pendulum had swung too far since the initial treaty settlements, and that Maori were receiving preferential treatment, particularly in social services. The Closing of the Gaps rhetoric from Labour during Labour’s first term was symptomatic of this. There was a genuine perception that these policies were targetted based on race, rather than need.

    That issue was never properly dealt with. As soon as Dr Brash raised the issue, he was branded a racist and howled down. When Dr Brash’s polling increased, Labour got the message, ceased calling him a racist, and then dismantled the Closing the Gaps policies and instead focussed on need.

    I think a showdown, in that climate, was inevitable. Non-Maori, rightly or wrongly, felt excluded. They had, for over a generation, been told it wasn’t appropriate to express a view that might challenge the orthodox view that all policies targetting Maori were appropriate.

    The way Don Brash handled the issue was divisive. So too was the way Helen Clark handled it. For a progressive politician, I suspect over time she will deeply regret that she sold Maori out over the foreshore and seabed issue, which she clearly did in my view, for short term political gain (and the very same expediency which seems to appal you so much about Dr Brash).

    Like Matthew Hooton, the discomfort I felt around Dr Brash’s actions was that they were contrary to his personal, liberal beliefs. I suspect many Labour voters now feel a sense of shame that Helen Clark similarly sold her progressive political beliefs down the river as well.

    I think John Key has the skills to negotiate an outcome with the Maori Party, which will see both Maori and non-Maori feel included. I hope so.

    • Tim

      “Labour clearly intended to legislate as it did, long before Dr Brash gave his Orewa speech”

      This is the bit where you lose your credibility.

      The initial comment by Cullen was to suggest that all kiwis should have access to the foreshore. The detail of the legislation was not even thought of let alone decided on at this stage.

      You really do appear to continuously support the extreme possibility of views and then claim them to be the truth.

      You would get more credibility if you allowed for the various possibilities rather than claiming that the view consistent with the conspiracy theory is the only possible reality.

      • Tim Ellis 16.1.1

        micky:

        From the Ministry of Justice website:

        On 18 August 2003, the government released draft proposals for consultation on the foreshore and seabed. An extensive consultation process followed involving 10 hui, over 50 meetings with the general public, interest and recreational groups; and a public submissions process. Over 2,100 submissions were received on the government’s proposals.

        During November and early December 2003 further consultation was carried out between the government and Maori and other sector/interest groups. Later in December, the government released its revised policy framework, with a proposed way forward.

        Following this, the Foreshore and Seabed Bill was drafted and introduced into the House of Representatives on 8 April 2004. The Bill passed its first reading and was referred to the Fisheries and Other Sea-related Legislation Committee for consideration. After six months of hearings and consideration of just under 4,000 written submissions (of which 222 were presented orally), the Committee was unable to agree to any amendments and the Bill was reported back to the House on 4 November 2004.

        The Foreshore and Seabed Act was enacted on 24 November 2004.

        That’s the official timeline. No, I don’t believe that Dr Brash’s speech in January 2004 is what determined the legislation.

        EDIT: and the link is here http://www.justice.govt.nz/foreshore/background.html

        • Pascal's bookie 16.1.1.1

          Here’s a news report from July 15, which is before 18 August for those paying attention.

          http://tvnz.co.nz/content/205607

          The National Party says government proposals to settle a row over ownership of the foreshore and seabed contradict a pledge two weeks ago to preserve them for all New Zealanders.

          On Monday, acting Prime Minister Michael Cullen said the government may allow iwi to take issues of customary rights to the Maori Land Court. His comments follow a Maori challenge to plans to legislate Crown ownership.

          Last month the government said it would legislate to keep the seabed and foreshore in Crown ownership – but it made a distinction between customary use and customary title.

          National MP Nick Smith says the change would allow the Maori Land Court to divide up the coastline, with no opportunity for non-Maori New Zealanders to have a say.

          Smith says a future government would find it hard to undo the changes….

          But but , national didn’t say anything till Orewa!! Labour wasn’t reacting to anything at all, it was all just a dreeeeeam. wiggly fingers wiggly fingers.

    • Pascal's bookie 16.2

      “I was referring PB to Eddie’s claim that the Foreshore and Seabed act was a suck-up to rednecks, that it was an inevitable consequence of Dr Brash’s race baiting.”

      Except Tim, Eddie never said it was Brash’s race baiting. Don wasn’t leader yet so his turn with the whistle was to come. It was National party rhetoric and scare-mongering that was setting the agenda leading up to the legislation. That’s what DPF’s little timeline ignores. That English and Smith et al were out there holding meetings at turning up at Marlborough rallies, and bleating about the ‘Beaches’ how the Govt had to legislate full crown title.

      See my comment at 9:02 for links.

      • Tim Ellis 16.2.1

        I’ve had a look at your links PB. They are pretty mild, and I don’t deny that National was talking about the issues.

        http://tvnz.co.nz/view/tvnz_smartphone_story_skin/255490 is a very interesting link. It shows that there was no significant shift in the polls between Labour and National until March 24, 2004. Until then, Labour was consistently tracking at least 15 points ahead of National, including throughout the time of the FS&S issue.

        Yes, the Orewa speech gave Dr Brash a significant lift in the polls, but that was the only time there was a major poll shift. The major poll shift wasn’t reported until March 24.

        Until March 24, 2004, there was little to suggest that National’s policies were getting any public traction.

        • Zetetic 16.2.1.1

          Orewa didn’t get much pick up at first. It burst into a major issue about a month later. The rednecks flooded over to National. Labour was spooked to see their led disappearing. Felt they had to follow National. One reason I vote RAM.

          • Tim Ellis 16.2.1.1.1

            Zetetic, the first poll that saw National getting any traction was on March 26, 2004. Labour introduced the legislation in early April, after many months’ consultation.

            Surely you are not so stupid/dishonest as to claim that Labour decided after the poll on March 26 to completely change direction?

        • Pascal's bookie 16.2.1.2

          “I don’t deny that National was talking about the issues.”

          It would be fairly difficult to now, but you have been implying so all along. I don’t find your link that interesting at all. English couldn’t get traction for any number of reasons. And the f&s issue had been essentially played out by Orewa. To pretend though, that Labour wasn’t responding to National’s race baiting but instead initiating that angle is simply false. That’s what the iwi/kiwi billboards were all about. As much as I hated what Labour did, National showed every sign of being much worse.

  17. RedLogix 17

    There is no question in my mind that Maori are ultimately seeking full private property title rights. All the talk of ‘freedom of public access’ is just a sop.

    Sorry but I cannot see it working. At some point, no matter how it’s spun and diced, there will arise an irreconcilable difference between iwi ‘property rights’ and ‘unfettered public access’.

    • Zetetic 17.1

      It’s all about aquaculture. Big bucks to be made. Iwi want to be the ones making them. Get the rights recognised, get the aquaculture. Oh well, it was theirs in the first place so fair enough.

      No economic interest in closing beaches (although some extremist group will do it)

  18. RedLogix 18

    No economic interest in closing beaches

    So why all the ‘closed private’ beaches you find in so many places you travel around the world?

    Fine ideals and liberal principles aside, it will end in tears.

  19. So Bored 19

    National are the party that sanctifies private property and runs policies aimed at entrenching class advantages for those that have. Whats so different about thee Maori Party? The real rub willl come the day some urban Maori family from Otara head for the beach and get denied or charged for access by the local iwi or hapu.

  20. millsy 20

    Say goodbye to the right of a family to have a day at the beach. This is one slippery slope New Zealanders are heading down. There is no reason why the iwi elite wont lock the beaches up in the future. Hell, they are doing it already in heaps of areas. And you idiots are falling for it hook like and sinker

    If Maori had their way, every lake, forest, river, mountain, beach and rock in this country would be locked up. They are doing it now. For example, DOC want to fix up an old stock tunnel on the whitecliffs walkway up here in Taranaki, but the Maori are making things difficult, and not letting them, I think that they really need to pull finger and realise that to enjoy the outdoors is a kiwi birth right.

  21. RedLogix 21

    And in among all the talk of ‘access to the beaches’, there is no mention of protecting access to the sea itself. If Zetetic is right and it is all about aquaculture rights that will lock up large areas of sheltered bays on our coastline into private property titles… will this mean that boaties will have to ask the grace and favour of the local iwi before they can push out from the local slipway on Sundays?

    Even further down the slope there remains the open question that if ‘indigenous pre-colonial’ occupation can be translated into property rights for the S&F, then it hugely lowers the barrier to applying exactly the same legal argument to the rest of NZ.

    Many years ago (in the mid 80’s) I recall meeting and having breakfast with a then Chairman of Te Arawa confederation. Back then he outlined his vision for NZ, that eventually the iwi would restore full sovereign rights over their original territories, each run as separate nation states. In complete naivety I recall asking him how he thought us Pakeha might fit in. His reply was along the line, that Maori were very generous hosts, but if we didn’t pay the rent we could go back to where we came from. I swear I’m not making this up.

    He is not known as a radical. And yet every step he outlined in his vision to me nearly 30 years ago to me, has come directly to pass. His iwi, as of yesterday, now own huge tracts of mid- NI forest and rights to much of the geothermal energy in the area. Exactly as he planned.

    Personally I thought Labour’s S&F Act was a valid and workable compromise; allowing for some rights and recognition of iwi interests in an area, but without going anywhere near what now looks like being given to Maori. Listen carefully to the language being used; in among all the soothing talk you will clearly hear an underlying and uncompromising demand from Maori to obtain full private property title rights. And once obtained the next step is to demand full control of that property.

    As some other poster very cogently pointed out, this is exactly the same question we ran into when Jim Sutton tried to reform access to public lands, potentially requiring a handful of white farmers to legally secede small, linear and defined access routes to rivers and backcountry. Recall the howls and screams over that?

  22. Red Rosa 22

    “Personally I thought Labour’s S&F Act was a valid and workable compromise; allowing for some rights and recognition of iwi interests in an area, but without going anywhere near what now looks like being given to Maori. Listen carefully to the language being used; in among all the soothing talk you will clearly hear an underlying and uncompromising demand from Maori to obtain full private property title rights. And once obtained the next step is to demand full control of that property.

    As some other poster very cogently pointed out, this is exactly the same question we ran into when Jim Sutton tried to reform access to public lands, potentially requiring a handful of white farmers to legally secede small, linear and defined access routes to rivers and backcountry. Recall the howls and screams over that?”

    Well said Redlogix, deserves a repeat.

    Given a few days’ reflection, the FSA may not look too bad after all.

    • So Bored 22.1

      Redrosa and Redlogix are onto it. As a trout fisher access to rivers has a real resonnance, privatisation of the public domain by stealth is common. Pakeha or Maori the end result of privatisation is the same for Joe or Rangi Average.

      Im all for restitution for past losses for Maori, I am not for creation of a landed class based aristocracy. The Nats are because the aristocracy of property and money like to buy and trade from one another, and this represents a whole pot more of tradable assetts carved from the public.

    • I agree with Red Rosa.

      I feel somewhat compromised however. For the first time ever my comments at kiwiblog have resulted in net positive karma. Ooooo. I think I need a shower

  23. Tim Ellis 23

    micky,

    This thread is very interesting. If this thread is anything to go by, it seems that a large proportion of left-wing voters don’t want Maori to have a share of foreshore title, and are quite happy with Labour’s decision to legislate in 2004. This does suggest that Labour wasn’t pandering to red-neck reactionaries, but expressing the Labour Party view.

    Or would you have it that it is only people from the Right who oppose redress for Maori who are red-necks?

    If Millsy, So Bored, Red Rosa, Red Logix and Zetetic had been right-wing, I can well see that Eddie would label them as racists.

    • So Bored 23.1

      Ouch! Tim,

      If it is racist to object strongly to race based priveleges or preferences I plead Guilty as charged.

      As punishment I have to go to work now…..noticed you were on the blog ALL DAY, dont you have a job to go to, or something better to do?

      • Tim Ellis 23.1.1

        I wasn’t labelling you racist, So Bored. I was pointing out that had you come from the Right with the opinions that you hold, then Eddie would label you a racist.

        Can you tell me, though, which part of Don Brash’s Orewa speech did you disagree with?

    • Tim

      “it seems that a large proportion of left-wing voters don’t want Maori to have a share of foreshore title, and are quite happy with Labour’s decision to legislate in 2004”

      My view is more nuanced than others. I am more than happy for indigenous “rights” to be recognised, and if they have been breached or confiscated then for compensation to be paid. The only caveat to this is that access to beaches should continue to be open.

      I do not want the ability for “title” to be issued because the “rights” are something that in my view should not be able to be transferred or alienated.

      I do not believe that Labour was pandering to red-neck reactionaries but attempted to reconcile the competing interests.

      National did pander to the red-neckers. They proposed abolition of title and right without compensation.

      • Tim Ellis 23.2.1

        I agree with your point, Micky, that access to beaches does need to be preserved. All of the signals from the Maori party appear to be consistent with that, irrespective of recognition of customary rights.

        Labour did abolish title and right without compensation.

        • mickysavage 23.2.1.1

          Tim

          “Labour did abolish title and right without compensation.”

          No they did not. There was the right to go to have the High Court to seek a declaration and if the claim was upheld the Crown were obliged to negotiate compensation. See sections 33 and 37 of the FSA.

          And check out the deal done with Ngati Porou.

  24. Tigger 24

    Of course, one hopes that it is Maori and not the Maori Party who get to decide what they want from this process…

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  • Passing the buck
    Last month, NZDF's shoddy coverup of what it knew about civilian casualties in Operation Burnham began to fall apart, with the revelation that a report on the matter, which NZDF claimed not to have, had been sitting in an NZDF safe for the past nine years. Yesterday, the man responsible ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • India a major player in Earth observation satellites
    While many imagine that countries like the USA and Europe dominate space activities, in fact India is now a major player on this stage. It launches satellites for its own purposes and also commercially, and has constellations orbiting our planet and returning data of vital importance to that nation in ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    5 days ago
  • The rot at the top (2).
    Thanks to a report from the Acting Inspector General of Intelligence and Security following a complaint by Nicky Hager, we have come to find out that the SIS illegally spied on Mr. Hager on behalf of the NZDF after publication of Hager’s 2011 book, Other People’s Wars. The NZDF justified ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    5 days ago
  • Common misconceptions about “Global Warming”
    COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING MYTH 1: Global temperatures are rising at a rapid, unprecedented rate. FACT: The HadCRUT3 surface temperature index, produced by the Hadley Centre of the UK Met Office and the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia, shows warming to 1878, cooling to 1911, ...
    An average kiwiBy admin@averagekiwi.com
    5 days ago
  • A climate of tyranny
    For the past week, Extinction Rebellion has been peacefully protesting in London to demand action on climate change. The British government's response? Ban their protests:Police have banned Extinction Rebellion protests from continuing anywhere in London, as they moved in almost without warning to clear protesters who remained at the movement’s ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Collins crushes climate
    An essay by Judith Collins MP reported on Carbon News yesterday seems to show an alarming shift in attitude within the National Party. Collins argues against the Zero Carbon Bill, the Paris Agreement, and downplays the magnitude of climate impacts. The Paris Agreement was adopted in December 2015 and ratified ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    5 days ago
  • More disappointment
    When they were running for election, Labour promised to overhaul the Employment Relations Act and introduce fair pay agreements to set basic pay and conditions on an industry level, preventing bad employers from undercutting good ones. They followed this up by establishing a working group, which reported back in January ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • What do these mother-child studies really say about fluoridation?
    A list of indicators of bad science – many of these are found in articles promoted by anti-fluoride activists. Anti-fluoride activists have been pouring money into a scaremongering campaign warning pregnant women not to drink fluoridated water. They claim fluoride will lower the IQ of their future child. Fluoride ...
    5 days ago
  • Losing Labour’s Mills-Tone.
    Nothing Left To Say: Labour's pollster, Stephen Mills, remains swaddled-up in the comforting myths of the 1980s. As if the experience of Roger Douglas’s genuinely radical post-Muldoon policy agenda was literally a once-in-a-lifetime thing – as much as the party could possibly absorb for at least the next 50 years.MEMO ...
    5 days ago
  • Speaker: Disability and the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse
    The Royal Commission on abuse in care is very significant for the disability community. For many decades last century, thousands of disabled children, and adults who managed to survive, were locked away from families and communities. This was not for anything they had done, but for the perceived threat their ...
    5 days ago
  • Spain is not a democracy
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • UK Conservatives hate democracy
    With an unfair voting system, uneven electorates and an un-elected upper house, the UK's "democracy" is barely worthy of the name. But now the government wants to make it worse:The government has been accused of suppressing voters’ rights with the potential disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of people after plans ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • What is wrong with our building industry?
    Back in the 90's and early 2000's, the building industry was building leaky homes which should never have been granted consent. Now it turns out they've been building dodgy office blocks as well:New imaging technology has revealed hundreds of major buildings nationwide have defective or missing concrete or reinforcing steel. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Local bodies
    Local body election results were released over the weekend, to joy or despair depending on where you live. In Auckland, Phil Goff trounced John Tamihere, who is muttering darkly about running for Parliament again (but which party would want him?) Wellington is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Weta Workshop, except ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • A future of government
      How could government evolve over the next decades? Reports of democracy’s imminent demise are greatly exaggerated.  However, satisfaction with political systems in many countries is low, so there is much to do for governments of all political stripes to improve relevance and trust. Digital technologies are seen as one ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Catalonia, interrupted
    Two years have now gone by since the Friday afternoon when my university-student son and I headed out of our Barcelona flat to a nearby primary school, designated as a polling station for the vote that was to be held the following Sunday: the referendum on Catalonia’s independence from Spain ...
    1 week ago
  • Sage Decisions Unwisely Over-Ruled.
    Overruled: The joint decision of Finance Minister, Grant Robertson (Labour) and his Associate Minister, David Parker (Labour) arguably the two most powerful ministers in Jacinda Ardern’s government, to grant OceanaGold the consents which Land Information Minister, Eugenie Sage (Greens) had earlier denied them, offers bitter proof of how hard fighting ...
    1 week ago
  • Government may ban voting in effort to get more people to do it
    More than double the number of people who will vote in this year’s local body elections have tried marijuana or urinated somewhere they shouldn’t have. As local elections look set for the lowest turnout in decades, with many regions falling well short of 40%, the Government is exploring a number ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Woman: Deleted.
    A Statement on Abortion Law Reform by the Council of Disobedient Women   On the eve of bringing an end to antiquated, anti-women abortion laws Green MP Jan Logie intends to write women out of the Bill. With a stroke of the pen, the woke are aiming for total erasure ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The Hollowest of Men Ride Again… SURPRISE!
    Musings continue apace about “the experienced businessman!” soon to be taking up a National Party MP position. Or to be more accurate, being parachuted into a seat to shut down their former MP Jamie-Lee Ross, who despite his own shortcomings shed at least some more light on the inner workings ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    1 week ago
  • Barbaric
    The Ugandan government wants to murder gay people:Uganda has announced plans to impose the death penalty on homosexuals. The bill, colloquially known as “Kill the Gays” in Uganda, was nullified five years ago on a technicality, but the government said on Thursday it plans to resurrect it within weeks. The ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Fighting Monsters.
    Freedom Of Speech? The Säuberung (cleansing by fire) was the work of the German Student Union which, on 10 May 1933, under the watchful eye of the Nazi Reichminister for Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, consigned 25,000 books to the flames in a ritual exorcism of “un-German thought”. According to the logic of the ...
    1 week ago
  • The next wave of kaupapa Māori politics: its constitutional, it must be.
      “There can be no such thing as kaupapa Māori political parties or politics in Aotearoa” (Willie Jackson, Labour Party (2017). Māori TV, General/List Election Special) I begin with that claim because at the time, I was confounded at first that it fell out of Willie Jackson’s mouth, and then ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Night lights of NZ from orbit
    New Zealand has prided itself for decades with regard to its lack of pollution, and all will be aware that the ‘100% Pure New Zealand‘ meme is under threat through land, water and air pollution of various causes. There is another type of contamination that the country also faces: light ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    1 week ago
  • Reporters deliver uplifting news to fleeing Japanese residents: they won’t miss any rugby
    New Zealand’s media is doing its part in Japan, reassuring those in the path of the storm that they won’t miss any rugby while away from their flooded homes. New Zealand sports reporters stationed in Japan for the Rugby World Cup have had the rare and heartwarming opportunity to inform ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Government in contentious discussions about whether to put surplus on red or black
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones is the only Cabinet member in favour of putting it all on green. As Finance Minister Grant Robertson finds himself with an enormous $7.5 billion surplus, the Government has begun intense, at times contentious conversations about whether to put the money on red or black at ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Jordanian teachers’ successful strike has lessons for here
    by Susanne Kemp At the start of September close to 100,000 school teachers went on strike in Jordan.  They demanded a 50% pay rise.  A pay rise actually agreed to by the regime back in 2014. In early October, however, in the face of government repression and threats, the teachers’ ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Why some people still think climate change isn’t real
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz Why do people still think climate change isn’t real? David ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • The SIS unlawfully spied on Nicky Hager
    Back in 2011, journalist Nicky Hager published Other People's Wars, an expose on NZDF's activities over the previous decade of the "war on terror". NZDF didn't like this, and especially didn't like the fact that it was base don leaks from their own. So, they had the SIS investigate him ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • October 2019 – Newsletter
    https://mailchi.mp/7d9133add053/closing-the-gap-october-2019-newsletter ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    1 week ago
  • And they wonder why we think they’re environmental vandals…
    The Zero Carbon Bill is due back from select committee in two weeks, and will likely pass its final stages in November. So naturally, farmers are planning a hate-march against it. But they're not just demanding lower methane targets so they can keep on destroying the planet; they're also demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Paying the price in California
    Last year, California burned. This year, to stop it happening again (or rather, to stop themselves from being found liable if it happens again), Pacific Gas and Electric is cutting power to half the state for a week:Schools are closed. Traffic lights down. Tunnels dark. Businesses unopened. Hospitals running on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Let’s Hear It For Up-Close-And-Personal, Hard-Copy Democracy!
    The Best Way: Missing from the on-line voting debate is any reference to the voting system that produces turn-out figures ranging from 77 to 93 percent of registered voters. The voting system used to collect and count the votes cast in our parliamentary elections. The system that involves citizens making ...
    1 week ago
  • 10/10: World Day Against the Death Penalty
    Today, October 10, is the world day against the death penalty. Out of 195 UN member states, 84 still permit capital punishment. Today is the day we work to change that. This year's theme is children. Having a parent sentenced to death or executed causes long-term trauma and stigmatization which ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Talking Freer Lives: a Marxist gender-critical perspective from Australia
    Among the great new bunch of political friends we have been making recently is the excellent Australian-based Marxist gender-critical site, Freer Lives.  So we asked the comrade who set up that blog to write something for Redline on the blog, himself, his analysis of the rise of gender politics and ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Government spin accepted by union leadership
    by Don Franks  The Auckland City Mission is struggling with a 40 percent increase in demand for food parcels this year. A total of 23,020 were needed by June. Last month Missioner Chris Farrelly told the Herald the “cupboards are bare” and without an emergency food drive, he can’t see ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Forbidden Thoughts
    by The Council of Disobedient Women   Massey Wellington Student Association had a sit-in today. Imagine a sit-in. On a campus. Against a women’s rights meeting. Did the ’60s really happen or did we fucking dream it? They gathered in the student square, an echo chamber. Sitting on soft pillows ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Much love to my loyal Ukrainian readership
    For some reasons, my post about the mystery message from inside the Downing Street bunker seemed to catch people's attention.  Quite a lot of hits from NZ (unsurprisingly) and the USA (a bit more puzzlingly, but hi there, USAians!!) and 76 views from the Ukraine.I've celebrated my Ukrainian readers in ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Another day of bonkers GNUmours (again, sorry)
    First, almost a score of Labour MPs seem to have sent a letter to the EU basically begging them to accept a deal - any deal - just so Britain can get the Heck on with Brexiting instead of being trapped in limbo:
    To avoid no deal, deliver on the ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour vs working class immigrants – again!
    by Phil Duncan In 2016 the National-led government suspended the Parent Visa Category, through which migrants were able to bring their parents into New Zealand.  Since then over 5,700 people have been in immigration limbo, stuck on the visa wait list. Labour is now bringing back the scheme.  Well, sort ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Speak Up for Women press statement: on Massey University and Feminism 2020
    The following was released yesterday (Tues, October 8) by the women’s liberation organisation Speak Up for Women. On 23 September Speak Up For Women announced that we would be holding an event at the Massey University Theaterette in Wellington. The event is called Feminism 2020. The intention of the event ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Farmers support dirty rivers
    The government is currently consulting on plans to improve freshwater quality. So naturally, farmers oppose it:South Taranaki farmers are preparing to fight proposed national freshwater changes that some fear will bankrupt them. The Government's proposed National Environment Standard on Freshwater Management, released in September, rated the Waingongoro River as one ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • No-one cares about local government
    Yesterday was the last day for (reliably) posting your vote away in local body elections. Turnouts are mostly much lower than the equivalent time last year (Palmerston North is down 2.3%), and so naturally people are pushing their online-voting snake oil again. Because the online census worked so well, lets ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • The political ghosts of eugenics may matter more than the genetic
    This essay, on the political legacy of the eugenics movement, by Kenan Malik was originally published in the Observer on 6 October 2019, under the headline ‘The spirit of eugenics is still with us, as immigrants know to their cost’. Birth control. Intelligence tests. Town planning. Immigration controls. It’s striking how ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • “Surplus” again
    Another year, and the government has announced another enormous government "surplus". And just like last year, its nothing of the sort. When we have people homeless and sick and hungry, when we have schools and hospitals still falling down, when we have underpaid public servants and infrastucture unmaintained or unbuilt, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Inside the Downing Street bunker
    James Forsyth at The Spectator (I know, I know) has tapped one of his contacts inside Number Ten for an insight into the Johnson administration's thinking and strategy.It is fascinating, unsettling and quite, quite mad.  Some key points:Negotiations have stalled and the Johnson administration are keen to blame the EU: ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Taking Control Of The Nation’s Story.
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    2 weeks ago
  • Are GNUs extinct?
    Another round of tactical talks about forming a Government of National Unity have come to nothing with the Liberal Democrats still refusing countenance putting Jeremy Corbyn into Downing Street:Opposition talks on Monday made little headway over when to try and vote down Boris Johnson's government and who might succeed him as ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour chickens out again
    When the government was elected, it promised to lead the way on electric vehicles, and specifically to make the government vehicle fleet emissions-free where-practicable by 2025.They lied:There are 15,473 vehicles in the government fleet and only 78 are electric. When the coalition Government came into power in late 2017, the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Transgender extremism, violence at work against feminist meeting at British Labour Party conference
    by Nick Rogers The debate around the meaning of sex and gender made an appearance at this year’s British Labour Party conference in Brighton. Women’s Place UK – an organisation that questions the demand that biological males who self-identify as woman should have access to women’s spaces, to all-women shortlists, ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Rebelling in Wellington
    Yesterday I went down to Wellington to participate in the Extinction Rebellion protest. Its part of the latest global wave of XR actions, with actions happening all over the world. Some of those protests are massively disruptive: in Canada, XR is blocking major bridges, stopping people from getting to work. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

  • Methane reducing cattle feed one step closer
    The Government today announced its support for a project that could substantially reduce agricultural greenhouse gas emissions from cattle. The announcement was made as part of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s and Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor’s visit to Nelson’s Cawthron Aquaculture Park. The Cawthron Institute will receive $100,000 from the Government’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Bill to refresh superannuation system passes first reading
    Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni has welcomed the first reading of the New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension Legislation Amendment Bill. “Every New Zealander has a stake in New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension,” says Carmel Sepuloni. “They are our most common form of social assistance – nearly 800,000 New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Government announces next steps in fight against measles
    Babies in Auckland aged six months and over can receive a free vaccination and children will all have access to vaccines, Associate Minister of Health Julie Anne Genter announced today at Papatoetoe High School.   The move comes as part of Government efforts to step up the fight against measles. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs, Pacific Futures: Connections, Identity...
    ***Check against delivery*** Good morning. It is a pleasure to be here, and to have the honour of opening this important conference on behalf of the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. Let us take the opportunity to acknowledge all the people who have helped make today possible, including our special ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Police trial new response to high risk events
    Police Minister Stuart Nash says the safety of frontline officers and members of the public will be the focus of a new trial of specialist Police response teams in three of our largest urban centres. Police have this morning released details of an initiative to be trialled in Counties Manukau, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New awards celebrate fisheries sustainability
    The Minister of Fisheries is calling for entries for a new public award to celebrate innovation in our seafood sector. “I have established the Seafood Sustainability Awards to recognise and celebrate those throughout industry, tangata whenua and communities who demonstrate outstanding dedication and innovation towards the sustainability of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • More progress for women and we can do more
    Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter welcomes leaders in the private sector taking action on closing their gender pay gaps to ensure a fairer workplace for all New Zealanders. Ms Genter today launched a new report, Addressing the gender pay gap and driving women’s representation in senior leadership, from the Champions for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Proposals to curb environmental damage help our coasts and the oceans
    Government Ministers today welcomed the release of a marine environment report highlighting the four key issues affecting our oceans, estuaries and coastlines.  The release underlines the importance of government proposals to combat climate pollution, ensure clean freshwater, protect biodiversity, make land use more sustainable, and reduce waste and plastic.    Environment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New mental health facility for Waikato
    The Government has approved funding for a new acute mental health facility for Waikato which will provide better care and support to people with mental health and addiction issues. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Health Minister Dr David Clark announced the $100 million project to replace the aging Henry Rongomau ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • 500 new te reo Māori champions in our classrooms
    The Government is making progress on its goal to integrate te reo Māori into education by 2025, with over 500 teachers and support staff already graduating from Te Ahu o te Reo Māori,  Associate Education Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. Kelvin Davis made the announcement at an awards ceremony in Waikanae today, for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Minister James Shaw welcomes 2018 Census first release
    Statistics Minister James Shaw has welcomed the first release of 2018 Census data. The first release of data today, 23 September, includes key data on population, regional growth, the number of homes and the size of different ethnic groups in New Zealand. Data from the 2018 Census will support the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Driving transparency, ethics and accountability in government use of algorithms
    Minister for Statistics James Shaw today announced a public consultation on a proposed algorithm charter for government agencies. The charter has been developed by the Government Chief Data Steward in response to growing calls for more transparency in government use of data. Computer algorithms – procedures or formulas for solving ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand and the Netherlands working together on climate change
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor, Climate Change Minister James Shaw and visiting Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte co-hosted a business roundtable in Auckland this morning focused on working together to address climate change.  “The Netherlands is an important partner for New Zealand. We share a strong agricultural history. Sustainable agribusiness and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Protecting fairness for workers and businesses
    The Government is taking action to build an inclusive economy where more of us receive our fair share at work and businesses can compete on great products and services, not undercutting wages and conditions, Immigration and Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway says. Two consultations launched today seek feedback ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Indigenous Freshwater Fish Bill Passes
    The future for New Zealand’s threatened indigenous freshwater fish looks brighter with the passing of the Conservation (Indigenous Freshwater Fish) Amendment Bill in Parliament today said Minister of Conservation, Eugenie Sage. “Until now, our freshwater fish legislation has been 20 years out of date. We have lacked effective tools to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Kiwis to take part in world’s biggest earthquake drill
    At 1.30pm tomorrow, hundreds of thousands of Kiwis will join about 65 million people around the globe in ShakeOut, the world’s biggest earthquake drill. The annual drill is to remind people of the right action to take during an earthquake which is to Drop, Cover, Hold, and to practise their ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Rising wages and low inflation supporting Kiwis
    Kiwis are benefiting from higher wage growth and low inflation under the Coalition Government. Stats NZ data out today shows the rise in the cost of living remains low, as annual Consumers Price Index (CPI) inflation fell to 1.5% in September from 1.7% in June. “The low inflation comes as ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • NZ economy strong amid global headwinds
    New Zealand’s economic strength and resilience has been recognised in a major update on the state of the global economy. The IMF’s latest World Economic Outlook released overnight shows a reduced global growth forecast over the next two years as issues like the US-China trade war and Brexit take hold. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Keeping New Zealanders safer with better counter-terrorism laws
    Justice Minister Andrew Little has today introduced a new Bill to prevent terrorism and support the de-radicalisation of New Zealanders returning from overseas. The Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill gives the New Zealand Police the ability to apply to the High Court to impose control orders on New Zealanders who ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Improved succession and dispute resolution core of Ture Whenua changes
    A Bill that proposes targeted changes to simplify the processes for Māori land owners when engaging with the Māori Land Court has had its First Reading today. “The approach taken by the Government is to ensure that the protection of Māori land remains a priority as we seek to improve ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech to CTU Biennial Conference
    Let me first thank all the new unionists and members in the room. There is nothing more important to improving people’s working lives than people making the decision to care, to get on board and help, to take up the reins and get involved. Congratulations to you. You bring the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Minister ensures continued Whenuapai flight operations
    Minister of Defence Ron Mark has signed a certificate exempting the activity of engine testing at Whenuapai Airbase from the Resource Management Act 1991. The Act gives the Minister of Defence the power to exempt activities for the purposes of national security.  The certificate will mean the recent Environment Court ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • NZ joins Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson has announced New Zealand will join the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action while attending APEC meetings in Chile. The objective of the 39 member Coalition is to share information and promote action to tackle climate change. It was formed in April this year, in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Lyttelton Parking
    Feedback sought– Lyttelton commercial zone parking  The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Poto Williams, is seeking feedback on a proposal to remove on-site car parking requirements for new developments in the Lyttelton commercial zone.  The proposal, by Christchurch City Council, asks that powers under section 71 of the Greater ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Hagley Oval
    Hon Minister Poto Williams Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration   MEDIA STATEMENT       Tuesday 15 October 2019 Feedback sought – Hagley Oval The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Poto Williams, is seeking feedback on a proposal about Hagley Oval. The proposal was developed by Regenerate Christchurch ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • CTU speech – DPM
    Ladies and gentlemen, NZCTU President Richard Wagstaff, members of respective unions – thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. This might be preaching to the choir, but the importance of trade unions in New Zealand’s historical arch is difficult to understate. And it is my belief that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Police Association Annual Conference
    "Let’s start by acknowledging that it has been a huge year. " Police Association Annual Conference James Cook Grand Chancellor Hotel Wellington Nau mai, haere mai. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, ka nui te mihi, ki a koutou katoa. President of the Police Association, Chris Cahill; Members of the Association and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • New Zealand announces a further P-3 deployment in support of UN sanctions
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters and Minister of Defence Ron Mark have announced the New Zealand Government’s decision to again deploy a Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K2 (P-3) maritime patrol aircraft to support the implementation of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions imposing sanctions against North Korea. New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • New Zealand deeply concerned at developments in north-east Syria
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says New Zealand continues to have serious concerns for peace and stability in north-east Syria. “Recent reports that hundreds of ISIS-affiliated families have fled from a camp are deeply concerning from a humanitarian and security perspective”, Mr Peters says. “While we acknowledge Turkey’s domestic security ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government on high alert for stink bugs
    Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor is warning travelling Kiwis to be vigilant as the high-season for the crop-eating brown marmorated stink bug (BMSB) is under way. “We’re on high alert to stop BMSB arriving in NZ. The high season runs until April 30 and we’ve strengthened our measures to stop stink ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Better protections for students in halls of residence
    The Government is moving swiftly to change the law to improve the welfare and pastoral care of students living in university halls of residence and other tertiary hostels. Cabinet has agreed to several changes, including creating a new mandatory Code of Practice that sets out the duty of pastoral care ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New trapping guide for community and expert trappers alike
    The Minister for Conservation Eugenie Sage has launched a new comprehensive trapping guide for community trappers to help them protect our native birds, plants and other wildlife, at Zealandia in Wellington today. ‘A practical guide to trapping’, has been developed by the Department of Conservation (DOC), and was launched during ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
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  • Widening Access to Contraceptives Welcomed
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