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Goudie blunders again

Written By: - Date published: 8:46 am, October 14th, 2021 - 176 comments
Categories: covid-19, health, national, the praiseworthy and the pitiful - Tags:

Well known former National Party MP and vaccine expert Sandra Goudie has hit the headlines again.  Two months ago she hit the news when she admitted that she does not scan where she goes.  I commented at the time that she was not scanning to own the libs.

She has also in the past tried to sabotage our climate change response, again presumably to own the libs and has refused to say whether or not she believes in climate change because the issue was politically charged and driven.

She has been at it again, this time stating that the Pfeizer vaccine is not good enough for her and she will be waiting for the Novovax vaccine to be available before she gets vaccinated.

Novovax is an American company formed in the 1980s that has never before brought a successful vaccine to market. In 2020 it signed up to a massive contract with the Trump administration.  Its performance is promising but it has not been approved yet.  It is a more traditional form of vaccine compared to Pfeizer.

I don’t know why a former farmer should prefer her personal analysis over some of the best medical brains in the country.  Maybe it is all to do with a belligerent refusal to do what Jacinda Ardern asks of us.

Local Councillor Gary Gotlieb did not hold back.  From the Herald:

Councillor Gary Gotlieb said he was flooded with messages from people asking him: ‘What the hell is going on?’

“She’s wrong because she actually doesn’t understand how much damage she’s doing, and that’s my concern,” the district’s South East Ward councillor said.

“It’s considered stupidity,” he told the Herald.

“It’s disgraceful what she’s doing, based on no scientific evidence.”

He said the country was battling a pandemic and the mayor was effectively saying: “I’m more important than this. I can do what I like.”

Gotlieb said the mayor’s stance could undermine efforts to encourage “wavering” people to get vaccinated.

“I am disappointed and amazed she would actually say that. I’m saddened,” Gotlieb added. “It’s appalling stuff. How can you have a mayor saying that?”

Gotlieb said if Goudie got Covid-19, she could end up occupying an intensive care unit bed, depriving other people such as those needing surgery.

“She shouldn’t be mayor.”

Doubling down Goudie then chose to comment on the legal situation regarding vaccine mandates and said that the Covid legislation should be consistent with the Bill of Rights, presumably the section that says that people have the right to refuse medical treatment.  This section is subject to section 5 which says that “the rights and freedoms contained in this Bill of Rights may be subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society”.  Some form of limit in the middle of a global pandemic is appropriate.  And requiring people in public facing roles to be vaccinated in my view can be demonstrably justified.

Local Government is now grappling with some form of vaccine mandate.  Goudie is well and truly out on the edge on this issue.

176 comments on “Goudie blunders again ”

  1. woodart 1

    some people are scared, some are uncertain. some are purely bloodyminded. goudie fits the last category.

    • garibaldi 1.1

      That sure ain't an electric Falcon!

      • riffer 1.1.1

        Must be an old picture too. That car hasn't had a WOF since 2015.

      • GreenBus 1.1.2

        Nice car though. Tough on campers this mayor, the 'mandle is not camper friendly with this mayor around. I've been unreasonably fined by her mob of field officers but got off writing a letter to explain. NZMCA have had many issues with same thing and gone into bat for their members.

        • Patricia Bremner 1.1.2.1

          Yes, GreenBus don't visit in a motorhome bus or van to stay more than a brief time unless you have arranged private parking. Elitism.

          GreenBus, happy travels. We did that from 60 to 65. Travelled all over NZ for most of five years. We loved every minute.

          NZMCA is a great help with pops and their own parking areas throughout NZ. Plus staff to service systems to get warrants. We were 18160, guess numbers have really ballooned since then. We had a second hand ex tourist 6 berth we altered a tad. It was driven on a car licence, reliable and much loved.

          We felt great nostalgia, when after having sold it 3 years before, "Buzzing Along" sailed past us in the Athenree Gorge. The new owners were smiling and looking really happy. We were thrilled they had kept Norm's art work of bumble bees and the name on the front and rear.

          We had two smaller vans after that, as they fitted on our unit section better Life’saBuzz and TRVLNB, but at nearly 80 we had given up the life. Lately we have contemplated a small one for day outings round our lakes to fish or paint. Cheers GreenBus, your name is evocative.

          • GreenBus 1.1.2.1.1

            Thanks for the reply Patricia. GreenBus is a lazy handle I needed in a hurry to open a Google account complete with a small picture of our little green J2 beddy. We got stranded in your town for 4 days waiting for tyres after a blowout on the Atiamuri highway, on our way to Gisborne. The treewalk was fun and lots of swims at Blue Lake filled the time nicely. Our encounter with the corromandle gestapo was ridiculous which terminated with being found parked in bush up in the hills. Field officer told to search for us and bright green bus not hard to pick and they know where to look. But it was a good trip with a little excitement when the 7.1 earthquake hit at 2.30am. It's a good life!

    • dv 1.2

      Stupid comes to mind too.

  2. Maurice 2

    She knows there are votes in this stance – maybe only 5% … but that is enough to keep a wee Nat presence in Parliament!

  3. Jenny how to get there 3

    The Right Wing covid response and climate response are the same.

    I come first damn everyone else.

    The Right Wing response to covid is that making money comes before saving lives.
    The same with climate change, making money comes before saving the planet.

    Goudie epitomises this world view in one person.

    • Gypsy 3.1

      "The Right Wing covid response and climate response are the same."

      I have some news for you Jenny. I have been working on an environmental issue in Auckland for some time, and the most support we have received is from politicians who are either centre right independents or C&R. City Vision councillors and local board members have been MIA, or downright antagonistic. So generalisations don't rule ok.

      • Jenny how to get there 3.1.1

        Hi Gypsy,

        Maybe I should have said "generally" the Right Wing covid response and climate response is the same.

        The motive driving this general response from the Right is the same: to oppose any measures that effectively fight the pandemic, or curb climate change, that impose costs on the market.

        Admittedly, there are exceptions to this rule

      • Jenny how to get there 3.1.2

        Gypsy

        14 October 2021 at 10:35 am

        I have been working on an environmental issue in Auckland for some time…

        ….City Vision councillors and local board members have been MIA, or downright antagonistic.

        I would be interested if you could give me an example.

        Personally I agree with you, in my dealings with City Vision I didn't find them to be particularly Left, especially when it came to climate issues.

        • Gypsy 3.1.2.1

          I have been reluctant to get into details on this in the past here, but broadly the issue is around bio-diversity, and how our environment is being damaged by ideological rather than scientific objectives. I'll go out on a limb and give you an example. Western Springs Forest. A City Vision dominated local board voted 4-3 to remove 200 pine trees (almost all of which were healthy and had decades of life remaining) that were sheltering a regenerating native understorey. There had originally been several hundred pines in what is a well recognised forest to the people of Auckland, with the rest having been carefully managed out over a number of years). At a cost of close to $2m (double the budget), the work was completed and a large portion of the understorey has been destroyed, with many more thousands now being spent on replanting what is a barren landscape. I attended the final local board vote, and one City Vision board member stood up and declared she was voting to remove the pines because her ancestors had colonised Maori. I kid you not. Another CV board member sat through the 4 hour discussion and said not one word. This is typical of some (but to be fair not all) City Vision politicians in Auckland. IMHO the environment knows no culture, it respects no culture over another, and we abuse it at our peril.

    • Cricklewood 3.2

      Um the 'Left' response to climate change is no different to the 'right' in this country in thats its a joke.

    • Chris 3.3

      With a bit – or a lot – of Trumpian illogic in there to boot.

  4. Pataua4life 4

    Jeez MS

    Are you so desperate to write something bad about the opposition that you have to write about former MP's.

    Why didn't you write "well known mayor" in you first line. That is the current truth.

    Between you and Willy Jackson I don't know who has the bigger hard on to write about the opposition rather than the failings of the Govt.

    It is getting rather boring I must say.

    • observer 4.1

      Wait till you hear about Matt King in Northland …

      Only a former MP because Labour took his seat. Be grateful they did.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 4.2

      It is getting rather boring I must say.

      Some people are easily bored I must say. Goudie publicising her personal stance on Covid-19 vaccination (delay delay delay) was apalling – real 5th column stuff. The post is topical and in keeping with the values of The Standard – more please.

      What’s your political ‘angle’?
      We come from a variety of backgrounds and our political views don’t always match up but it’d be fair to say that all of us share a commitment to the values and principles that underpin the broad labour movement and we hope that perspective will come through strongly as you read the blog.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.3

      Jeez Pataua4life.

      You complain while not addressing a single one of the facts in the original post, namely that Goudie is

      • Anti-vax
      • Climate change denier
      • Anti-public health measures

      Deflecting much?

    • mickysavage 4.4

      Vaccine sabotage is an important issue and the stupidity of the person involved needs to be highlighted.

  5. Peter 5

    It's a valid story. It's in the news. She's a mayor, a community leader. She's an ex MP who's adopted an unusual position.

    Getting boring? If she were an ex Labour MP this would've been the biggest show in town today on Kiwiblog, you know it. It would have roused great energy, rancour and ridicule.

    Well done to Goudie. I heard her on radio. I congratulate her on the success she had in her effort to portray herself as a pillock.

  6. RedLogix 6

    From the little I've read if the more conventional Novovax is both effective and more acceptable to those hesitant about the mRNA based ones – then exactly what is the objection to it?

    Or are we just not allowed to talk about these things anymore – and must obey without question?

    • observer 6.1

      Of course we're allowed to talk about it (in NZ, I can't speak for a blog).

      Here's Sandra Goudie talking about it, this morning:

      Asked about trusting scientists, she said she wouldn't "make any comment about that whatsoever".

      Asked about whether she respected the scientific advice in New Zealand, – "I haven't contemplated a view on it. Straight off the bat you're expecting me to respond to that question? Get real."

      (NZ Herald/Newstalk ZB)

      Free to talk, and to dig, and to keep digging …

      • Jenny how to get there 6.1.1

        When put on the spot to declare herself, Goudie is revealed as a coward, as well as a Right Wing covid and climate denier.

        "….Straight off the bat you're expecting me to respond to that question? Get real."

    • Gypsy 6.2

      Yes people just need to respect her choice. However I would expect that an elected representative could articulate their position as well as you have. I listened to Sandra Goudie interviewed this morning by Tim Beverage and she really didn't help herself IMHO.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.2.1

        I'm not going to respect an antisocial choice that goes against all medical and scientific evidence and advice.

        She can make her choice – but don't expect others to respect it.

        • Gypsy 6.2.1.1

          You can respect her right to choose, without agreeing with her. And I think your characterisation of her choice as 'anti-social', given the circumstances of where she lives, as somewhat hysterical.

          • Patricia Bremner 6.2.1.1.1

            Unless she chooses not to interact at all in the end the virus will find Sandra. I hope she does not have any other health issues.

            Respect has to be earned. Toleration of stupidity in the face of scientific proof is optional.

            She is at least irresponsible in using her position this way. This is not the first time she has shown a cavalier attitude.

            • Gypsy 6.2.1.1.1.1
              1. You have no idea of her reasons, so you are judging in ignorance. Clearly she is not anti vaxx. For some reason she is anti the Pfizer vaxx. That's her business.

              2. She is not using her position any way. She isn't promoting an anti-vaxx message, in fact quite the contrary. I happen to strongly disagree with her, I'm just not blinkered by hatred.

              3. The virus doesn't hunt down the unvaccinated, whatever the PM may claim.

              • McFlock

                The virus has no intent. It's like water pressure on a submarine below crush depth – the weakest point collapses first, everything else goes from there.

              • Patricia Bremner

                Gypsy, that is not true, please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say she was hated. She will meet the virus soon, and as an unvaccinated person, she is by science 33 times more likely to catch it and be ill. Her position means she should not use her choices to sway people to wait to be vaccinated. She also treated the scanning in as “take it or leave it” manner.

                • Gypsy

                  "Her position means she should not use her choices to sway people to wait to be vaccinated."
                  I’ve not heard her doing anything of the sort. In her interview this morning she made it very clear she was pro-vaccine and that this was a personal choice for her and her alone. There may well be valid personal reasons why she is waiting for an alternative.

                    • Gypsy

                      Michelle begins with "She's stubbornly refused to say exactly why, which makes it a little tricky to analyse her position." and then proceeds to do just that. The problem for Goudie is that she’s making things worse with her unwillingness to actually put her case, but that really is her business. She’s not promoting an anti-vaxx message, she’s not persuading anyone else or making any attempt to. This just seems to be her own (albeit misguided) opinion.

                  • Ghostwhowalksnz

                    "valid personal reasons why she is waiting for an alternative."

                    She has no real understandings of differences in vaccines but she does know its not approved here so that day will never come.

                    The anti vaxxers use these sorts of stratagies all the time. She was an MP long to play the 'look over there' game.

                    She didnt want to use the phone app to scan in either . Her reason, also illogical, was some places are out of cellphone coverage. NZs App doesnt need cell coverage as the details are stored on phone

                    • Gypsy

                      You're speculating, on pretty much all counts.

                    • Ghostwhowalksnz

                      Not so. She was reported as not wanting scan in.

                      The scan app doesnt require a mobile connection to create a valid location on your diary. Thats fact not opinion.

                      I now genuinely believe that you are an anti covid vax in sheeps clothing as the denial instinct is strong there.

              • Hanswurst

                You have no idea of her reasons, so you are judging in ignorance.

                Whose fault is that? She's been given a forum and ample opportunity to explain her reasons, and has turned them down. Giving 'personal choice' as her reason is tantamount to saying, 'Because I feel like it,' at which point any listener is perfectly justified in assuming that she is either unwilling or unable to provide leadership – which is her fucking job. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable to conclude that she is unfit for the post of mayor in the current environment.

                • Gypsy

                  Partly hers. Partly those who think they should know her business.

                  " unwilling or unable to provide leadership – which is her fucking job. "

                  Providing leadership is not doing what you or I do or think she should do. Sometimes it involves making personal choices for which she will be judged at the next elections.

                  • Ghostwhowalksnz

                    Goudie is paid $130,000 pa ( plus mileage) for being Mayor of TCDC

                    The role of mayor According to the Council 2019 election handbook is

                    presiding at council meetings ensuring the orderly conduct of business during meetings;

                    advocating on behalf of the community which involves the promotion of the community and representation of its interests. Such advocacy will be most effective where it is carried out with the knowledge and support of the council;

                    • spokesperson for the council;

                    a few other items

                    We dont presume to know her business. Its her JOB. Promotion of the community, does mean hiding away from being a community leader.

                    next Ill be digging out her personal statement for the voters last election and see what she thinks about leadership.

                    • Gypsy

                      "advocating on behalf of the community which involves the promotion of the community and representation of its interests."

                      What does that have to do with her decision to wait for another vaxx? Particularly when the novavaxx has firmed up as the favourite choice of booster? (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126322689/covid19-novavax-booster-shot-decision-surprises-experts)

                    • Ghostwhowalksnz

                      She can still promote community vaccination events.

                      I saw a mayor in Balcutha on TV who was part of promotion and was very ebuliant for other to vaccinate

                      I see that Maureen Paugh , who at least has been anti pharmaceutical lifestyle for much of her life even before politics has taken a first vaccination. She was at least authentic in having vaccine hesitant views. I think shes the very last National MP to do so.

                      Goudie , it appears to me, is joined the Freedums Brigade but wont front up to at least putting her views out there…at losing her $130,000 pa job.

                  • Hanswurst

                    Providing leadership is not doing what you or I do or think she should do. Sometimes it involves making personal choices for which she will be judged at the next elections.

                    Specifically, providing leadership is showing people a way forward, and getting them to follow it. Just saying, 'I'll do what I want, okay?' and leaving people to come up with their own reasons definitely doesn't qualify.

                    • Gypsy

                      Leadership is sometimes about following an unpopular path, about swimming against a tide. And yes, leaders need to show strength of character, determination and self confidence. I don't agree with Goudie's decision, but I most certainly support her right to make it.

    • miravox 6.3

      I hope the people who turn down Pfizer because of their beliefs about the 3-letters "RNA" also turn down the biologics they'll be offered when they're hospitalised with severe covid. Surely their DNA concerns should be triggered with these drugs as well? Or won't that matter when their lives are in immediate peril?

      Treatments that many people with severe Rheumatoid Arthritis are now unable to access due to the effectiveness for treating covid anti-vaxers. No doubt the price will spike as well, with supply short and demand so high.

      (Apologies to those who wish to be vaccinated but have not legitimately been able to receive the vaccine on offer)

      • RedLogix 6.3.1

        I don't really care what their reasoning is if people perceive Novovax to be safer/better/5G chip-free – whatever – then exactly why should anyone else care?

        Or is there some reason that it's important that people ONLY get the mRNA vaccines that I don't know about?

        • miravox 6.3.1.1

          It's important that they take what's on offer. I'm particularly incensed about the *potential hypocrisy around Pfizer vaccine and the treatment they'll be having if they get seriously ill. Treatment that is right now denied to people who need that stuff to live a life free of disablement and deformity.

          *potential – because they'll be true to their beliefs while on their deathbed and not touch a biologic, right?

          • Tricledrown 6.3.1.1.1

            The CDC has looked at all vaccines and the efficacy of Novovax to variants is not so good so far as it is rated at only 50% against the Beta variant and no data I can find on its efficacy on the Delta variant.It hasn't got approval from any jurisdiction yet.

            Production not able to be ramped up till december2021. So when will it be able to be available in NZ.

            It will be to late to make a difference.

            On the positive side it doesn't need supercold storage.it has less side effects 20% less.The novovax vaccine maybe the best booster but research is ongoing.

            Until it has been tested in everyday widespread conditions the novovax covid vaccine can not make claims it does.

            It will be tested in time and maybe better but Goudie is making shit up to cover her antivax stance.

            • Gezza 6.3.1.1.1.1

              Your last sentence … that’s what I’ve been wondering about her actual reasons for refusing the pfizer shots.

            • SPC 6.3.1.1.1.2

              How come I read its 90% effectiveness for Novavax?

              We’re supposed to get around the end of the first quarter (I suspect more like end of April because of delays getting production going) as a booster for those who got the Pfizer in the second half of this year.

              Obviously they’ll be using Pfizer as booster for those vaxxed earlier this year

        • AB 6.3.1.2

          I don't think anybody cares whether Sandra Goudie gets vaccinated or not – or if she wants to wait for a different vaccine.

          But as she's an elected leader, she has a platform. If she uses that platform to say evidence-free things that dissuade others from getting the Pfizer vaccine, she's potentially causing two sorts of harm:

          • making it more likely that people dissuaded by her become unnecessarily sick or die
          • reducing or slowing down vaccination rates so that we all spend longer in lockdowns

          The difference is between the private citizen who can be a dick in peace – and the responsibilities of public office.

          • Gezza 6.3.1.2.1

            If she’s genuine about preferring another vaccine, & not just making bullshit excuses becos she’s really an anti-vaxer, she’s running the risk of getting Covid & spreading it to close contacts. Not someone I’d want to hang around in a shop, supermarket, office or council meeting room with if Covid gets into her area again.

    • francesca 6.4

      Actually Red, there are several things we cant talk about …committing twitter suicide as alluded to by the Spinoff ,when mentioning ivermectin.Straight away the debate is hijacked on to horse parasites .

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/media/06-10-2021/jesse-mulligan-what-ive-learned-from-the-anti-vaxxers-in-my-dms/

      The problem with a great punchline like Ivermectin is that the laughter tends to drown out the quiet voice of science too. How is my polite DMer meant to square the fact that while we’re all ridiculing these idiots, he’s reading on a legitimate news website that Oxford University, funded by the British government, is running a large scale trial into the effectiveness of Ivermectin in Covid-19 patients? He might have it wrong that we’re too scared to mention a trial like this on TV but, to be honest, asking people to be open-minded about the drug on Twitter right now would be suicide.

      Do you personally hope that the Oxford study concludes Ivermectin is useless against Covid? What does it say about us that we’ve become emotionally invested in the failure of one particular medication? Does it make it easier to understand some people’s opposition to the vaccine if you think about your own intransigent response to people pushing Ivermectin?

      I find Dr John Campbell pretty credible debunking the BBC's debunking of ivermectin.

      I'm not in the least bit surprised Merck (Ivermectin's maker)is not recommending it.It's after all out of patent now, and very cheaply produced.Merck in the meanwhile has developed a new covid wonder drug which stands to make them a very handsome fortune

      • francesca 6.4.1

        sorry, the quote marks should start at" the problem…..

      • SPC 6.4.2

        He makes the mistake of using meta data when some of the studies are regarded of low quality (and it is these ones which deliver the suggestion of effectiveness).

        I think he knows better, but is pandering to critics that he is a stooge of the establishment narrative.

        • swordfish 6.4.2.1

          .

          Nope … his preferred meta-analysis (which is peer-reviewed btw) carefully & precisely grades the evidence employed in each study in terms of degree of certainty & confidence: from very low, low, moderate, through to high … it finds that Ivermectin probably reduces deaths by 62% (moderate certainty evidence) … and possibly reduces transmission by 86% (low certainty evidence) …

          Conclusions of the meta-analysis are therefore cautiously positive about its efficacy: "Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in Covid-19 are possible using Ivermectin … using Ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease"

          Then again … maybe Andre’s right … complex reality all comes down to horse de-wormers & convergence moonbats.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.4.2.1.1

            I agree pointing to "horse dewormer" etc isn't helpful. Ivermectin was thought of because it does demonstrate powerful in-vitro activity against the covid-19 virus, but unfortunately at concentrations that are far higher than can be achieved safely in circulation in a person. Doesn't mean it won't work (in vitro often isn't an accurate predictor of in vivo), but needs a lot more work and is far from a done deal.

            The scientific concensus seems to be that more information is needed, and there are large good quality trials underway to get some actual information.

            I haven't watched the above video, but seems to refer to the recent meta analysis by A Bryant in the American Journal of Therapeutics. There are some serious concerns around that analysis – one of the key primary studies it relied on (that showed an astonishing (too astonishing) 90% reduction in death rates) turned out to be fraudulent and has been withdrawn.

            https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w

            A lot has been said about ivermectin, with little good data, despite claims to the contrary.

            https://cosmosmagazine.com/health/covid/data-detectives-ivermectin-studies/

            • Kirk-RS 6.4.2.1.1.1

              .
              @UncookedSelachimorpha –

              Thank you for your informative, balanced post.

              I happen to be fully vaccinated with Pfizer, but given the increasing probabilities of breakthrough infection over time, having other options would be welcome!

              Ivermectin in some formulation might be one of them. Fortunately, the Oxford University Principle Study you describe has been ongoing since late June and may start producing usable results as early as next month.

              The Merck antiviral pill molnupiravir also appears to offer promising preliminary results with no serious side effects.

              Of course, other options like these must be validated by science, first in the lab and then through animal and human trials. This system really does work, although it is not ideal for a fast-moving pandemic. However, at present humanity lacks a better system.

              There are important very recent signs that humanity is making progress toward developing a better way of handling potential global medical emergencies.

              The UN´s newly announced Scientific Advisory Group for the Origins of Novel Pathogens (SAGO), plus last month´s formation of the WHOś Hub for Pandemic and Epidemic Intelligence in Germany, should help develop global capacity for proactive responses to future pandemics.

              Any successes in this direction would help usher in an era of more unified, effective response that could nip pandemics in the bud or at least lessen their impact on human development.

              Perhaps such things could be shared with mayor Goudie in a friendly manner?

              It just might help to change up the topics of conversation a bit, to lessen the adversarial contention rooted in past party struggles and get more people working together more amicably on humanity´s common future.

              My chosen religion, the Baha´i Faith (including Baha´is in Aotearoa/NZ), supports these sorts of initiatives and approaches. We seek greater unity, rather than strengthening the existing divisions that have stood in our way.

              That´s still politics, but of a different flavour. I find it both tastier and more nutritious than the usual fare!

            • swordfish 6.4.2.1.1.2

              .

              Well aware of the retracted Elgazzar study … but doesn't make much difference to the overall findings of the meta-analysis.

              Watch this segment from the John Campbell clip originally posted by francesca above:

              I remain completely open-minded about Ivermectin … but don’t want to see any potential it may have ignored or denied as a corollary of either Big Pharma self-interest or moronic hyper-politicisation.

              • UncookedSelachimorpha

                "I remain completely open-minded about Ivermectin"

                Yes, I think that is the best way to be about it at the moment, too.

      • swordfish 6.4.3

        .

        Spot on … Ivermectin is a victim of the current hyper-politicised uber-tribalist echo-chamber zeitgeist.

        • francesca 6.4.3.1

          unfortunately it's become associated with Trump.Normally sensible people suffer from immediate cognitive loss when the name Trump is invoked.So many babies chucked out with the bath water.

    • Craig Hall 6.5

      From the Ministry of Health's perspective, they don't want to encourage "vaccine sommeliers" (to quote someone somewhere) because the infrastructure for each vaccine is different, so it creates logistical issues (especially given Pfizer's storage requirements). It is also used as an excuse for some people to not get vaccinated, when the main point is to get vaccinated now, not to wait for another vaccine to be made available.

      That said, having one or two of the others as options for people with genuine health issues from Pfizer is a useful plan, but they could be shipped down if someone's GP or specialist requests it rather than general availability.

      • Gezza 6.5.1

        Yes, I think putting all the govt eggs in the Pfizer basket was a little too short-sighted. Altho I can imagine some logistical nightmares & endless questions that might have arisen if Hipkins/Ardern/Bloomfield had publicly announced we also had supplies of other types of Covid vaccines….

      • Janet 6.5.2

        "but they could be shipped down" that makes sense…. they should get on with it .

    • Janet 6.6

      There is another developed along tradition lines under trial in Switzerland now too.. I will be interested to see if it has "glycol" as part of it lipid mix because if it doesn,t it still won,t be safe for glycol allergic people.

    • Andre 6.7

      Novavax only applied to the FDA for emergency use authorisation on the 23rd September this year, and hasn't received that EUA yet.

      Dunno when Novavax submitted data to Medsafe, Presumably it was sometime after it applied to the FDA. All Medsafe says is "Status: Application received, some data under evaluation, further data to be provided by sponsor." .

      So Novavax being almost a year behind Pfizer in actually submitting data might explain why nobody is using it yet.

      No conspiracies, no suppression of information, no kind of "not allowed to talk about it". Novavax were simply slow to get their shit together.

    • lprent 6.8

      …then exactly what is the objection to it?

      My main objection is that it is highly unlikely to be in this round of vaccinations, and personally I can't any reason to actually purchase it in the next round of boosters in 2002. There are better alternatives already.

      Noravax are only just starting the process of acceptance in the US in the 4th quarter. There has been a mention of putting in in front of Medsafe here – as a booster. But that probably won't be approved until next year. Medsafe will want to see what the FDA does first, and we probably won't start on the booster campaign until at best the first quarter of 2022.

      Anyway, it will take them months to get past the FDA now that the bulk of the population there is vaccinated and the US are awash with unused vaccines already purchased. It doesn't really qualify for an emergency approval unless Noravax are planning on effectively giving it away to poor countries.

      We have had enough doses pencilled in of the Noravax vaccine for the whole population since December last year. They haven't delivered. We have just had a display about how it takes a couple of years to get a protein based vaccine to production. That makes it interesting when you consider how many variants of covid-19 we have had since they started development of it.

      It becomes questionable that it is worth while for us to buy a whole lot of their vaccine when it is claimed to be about the same level of efficacy as the current Pfizer mRNA vaccine according to the manufacturer (see links above) against the older variants. Remember that Noravax was mainly tested pre-delta, and had similar efficacy levels to the Pfizer vaccine against the pre-Delta strains.

      It has an advantage in that the vaccine can be held at normal freezer cold levels. However NZ have already invested in the infrastructure to do the lower temperatures anyway. Questionable if that provides any advantage in NZ. It might if we are sending this to the Pacific nations. Perhaps we can provide an export trade to those nations by exporting Goudie along with donation jabs?

      The question in my mind will be why would Pharmac buy a new vaccine unless there is a specific purpose for it. So far I haven't heard of one at a medical level.

      By the time it comes around, at least 90+% of the population will have had an equally effective vaccine. We are at 83% at present with at least one jab – most of whom will get their second.

      We might use this as a booster shot next year if they do finally start to actually deliver. But at present I am struggling to see why we would use this particular vaccine as a booster for the vaccinated population.

      Currently the only FDA approved booster is Pfizer, and other companies like Pfizer, Moderna and J&J have done that booster testing over other vaccines already. Noravax hasn't done that testing as far as I can see. Noravax vaccine hasn't been deep tested against Delta unlike most of the in-use vaccines which have been tested in the field.

      Sure, the protein version probably has some advantages – even if it is just placating the fearful. But it looks like any third shot vaccine seems to act as a booster over the top of Pfizer – including Pfizer.

      Personally I'd prefer to wait for a mixed variant (including delta specific) booster. Like the Pfizer or Moderna versions that are being tested this quarter. But even then, there is a really major boost in efficacy just getting 3rd boost with the old version of the same vaccine.

      I can't see Pharmac putting a vaccine on the basis of that it might be useful on the terminally stupid like Goudie. They really don't like having too many variants of any drug in circulation in NZ – it reduces their ability to get cost-reductions for bulk buys.

      Basically the only medical use I can see for Noravax would be for a few people who have or would have actual bad reactions to Pfizer, and hope that they don't have a similar bad reaction to Noravax.

      I can however see it being the basis of a marketing campaign targeting the hesitant vaccination. "New and improved, naturally produced from dead moths, with a better lubricant, and wings to fly with" – using the points that you have mentioned. Stranger things used to happen before most of the population got naturally incurred herd immunity about ad campaigns

      • Andre 6.8.1

        Medsafe has already approved the AstraZeneca and Janssen/J&J. Since neither contain PEG, they're options for those that had a bad reaction to their first dose of Pfizer.

        I just haven't heard of any of either actually arriving in the country and being made available for distribution.

        • Forget now 6.8.1.1

          Both AstraZeneca and J&J contain Polysorbate 80 as an excipient; Andre, which is chemically similar to PolyEthylene Glycol (PEG used as excipient in mRNA vaccines such as Pfizer). Why are you okay with; one, and not the other, potential allergen?

          I don't think Sinovac contains either, but the efficacy may not be as good. Plus not medsafe approved as yet.

          • Andre 6.8.1.1.1

            I haven't seen any reliable sources cautioning that someone that had a bad allergic reaction to their Pfizer first dose should definitely avoid the J&J and AZ.

            To be sure, the possibility of cross-reaction is mentioned, and would appear to be a good reason for extra care and attention when getting the second dose. But it doesn't appear to be a contraindication.

            Notably, Novavax also uses Polysorbate 80.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8255352/

            • Forget now 6.8.1.1.1.1

              This seems reliable to me:

              VACCINATE WITH PRECAUTIONS* …

              • Prior history of anaphylaxis to previous vaccines and/or multiple drugs (injectable and/or oral) where the ingredients PEG or polysorbate 80 may conceivably be the cause and have not been tolerated since on medication review…

              * Precautions:

              • Review or discussion prior to vaccination by a clinical immunology/allergy or vaccinology specialist, to develop a risk/benefit assessment for each patient.
              • Skin testing to the vaccine and/or graded doses should be considered in some cases.
              • Vaccination in a medical facility equipped for the management of anaphylaxis (such as a medical clinic with multiple doctors available, or a hospital clinic).
              • Post-vaccination observation period should be at least 30 minutes….

              Anaphylaxis to vaccines is extremely rare but can be life threatening and should always be treated as a medical emergency, with immediate treatment with adrenaline (epinephrine). Most cases of anaphylaxis to vaccines occur within 20 to 30 minutes of vaccination and respond to one or two doses of adrenaline.

              Health professionals administering vaccines in Australia and New Zealand should all be trained in the emergency treatment of anaphylaxis, and adrenaline should be readily available in all vaccination centres.

              https://www.allergy.org.au/hp/papers/ascia-hp-position-statement-covid-19-vaccination

              That is, after all; why you get asked if you have any allergies before receiving injections, and if none are relevant (eg hayfever for myself), then you only have to have a 15 minute post-vaccination observation period before you are on your way out the door.

              • Andre

                All of that says, to paraphrase, "vaccinate with extra care and attention and monitoring after vaccination so that in the rare event of a reaction it can be safely dealt with".

                It is not a contraindication. It does not say "do not vaccinate".

                • Forget now

                  It's in the link; Andre. Stage 1 Vaccination without additional precautions, Stage 2 quoted (in part) above, Stage 3:

                  VACCINATION CONTRAINDICATED

                  • Documented anaphylaxis to one of the ingredients contained in the COVID-19 vaccine to be administered (Pfizer or Moderna – PEG or AstraZeneca – Polysorbate 80).
                  • Anaphylaxis to a prior dose of a COVID-19 vaccine.

                  Note: Anaphylaxis with one type of COVID-19 vaccine may not preclude vaccination with another vaccine, but this should only occur if the precautions listed above are met. If there is a high risk of an allergic reaction to one of the vaccines (such as a known allergy to PEG or Polysorbate 80), it may be possible to have another vaccine which does not contain the ingredient, subject to availability and medical advice.

                  • Andre

                    That's a matter of interpretation of that "or". It doesn't say that if you are allergic to PEG you are guaranteed to also be allergic to polysorbate. It can reasonably be read as if you are allergic to PEG don't get a second dose of a PEG-containing vaccine, or if you are allergic to polysorbate don't get a second dose of polysorbate-containing vaccine.

                    In any case, the estimated fewer than 100 people in New Zealand that are genuinely affected by this might not have options for a second vaccination until such time as some other vaccine gets developed and approved that doesn't contain polysorbate or PEG.

                    In the meantime, they still have the protection from that first dose. Which is still quite strong protection against hospitalisation and death, just not as strong as two doses.

                    • francesca

                      Do we or they (the 100) know who those people are?

                    • Forget now

                      And it is precisely to protect those who can't get vaccinated due to allergic susceptibility (plus age, or immuno-compromised status), that the rest of us should get vaccinated now! Also to generally act as if it still level 4 in an outbreak hotspot, even if you are not legally required to – rather than pushing your luck, and skirting the outer limits of permitted activity.

                      PEG, or PS80 may or may not be cross-allergens in a particular individual – skin scratch tests seem to be the best option to determine that, but also take time, resources and specialists not generally present at mass-vax sites (there is a source, but it's a pdf – if interested google: Allergic Reactions to Current Available COVID-19 Vaccinations: Pathophysiology, Causality, and Therapeutic Considerations). Sinovac doesn't contain either, but does have aluminium hydroxide as an adjuvant; which seems safe, but some people are still wary of.

                    • lprent

                      skin scratch tests seem to be the best option to determine that, but also take time, resources and specialists not generally present

                      There are always risks with any vaccine, or any medical treatment, even every substance or food that we take in. I used to have terrible reactions to bee stings – probably still do – I just haven't been stung in more than 40 years. There was one old type of penicillin that used to give me pretty awful rashes. And chocolate tends to push me into pretty nasty depressions.

                      The real trick is knowing what caused problems and why, then making sure that it is recorded somewhere. For the rest there are risks that have to be managed.

                      Currently the risks are a fairly high probability of having a bad outcome from a dose of Covid-19, a very high probability of infecting someone else with the same risk of having a bad outcome, or a very low probability of suddenly finding out for the first time you have a bad reaction to a adjuvant in a widely used vaccine.

                      Because if you know that you already have a reaction, you can assess the risk and can adjust your own behaviour appropriately for the next decade or so. Or look for an alternative vaccine version (I believe that they are available in NZ already) and pay for your own scratch test. Or just make sure that there are medics who can probably save you from the worst effects of a reaction around.

                      Also to generally act as if it still level 4 in an outbreak hotspot, even if you are not legally required to – rather than pushing your luck, and skirting the outer limits of permitted activity.

                      That is what I do anyway – In level 3 I act almost like I am in level 4. With one exception – workplace. (and generally as a anti-social geek – not that different to what I would do anyway).

                      In level 3, I normally go to my workspace. That is because I live in a 55 square metre apartment with a partner who normally works there as well. With two of us sitting next to each other in front of screens, both trying to talk to groups of people from around the world in meetings , or one of us trying to concentrate on code or writing with a loud conversation going on next to us – basically it doesn't work. We both think that the other is bloody loud and annoying on on-line meetings

                      But really we're just victims of international time zones and better communications.

                      Currently I'm at my workspace alone as I have been since the start of Auckland's level 3. So much more productive. If others come in, then I'll mask up if we go below a 10m separation. Simpler than determining their vaccination and medical immune statuses.

                      I was occasionally going to my workplace in my previous job in level 4 as well – unvaccinated. Complete with an issued exemption letter for each occasion for an essential industry.

                      There was often hardware that I needed to access that couldn't fit into my apartment. Plus I was finding that doing 40Gb transfers on a secure VPN that went to from home to Australia and back to NZ location 4km away. It really wasn't that stable even on fibre with the volumes of data I was working with.

                      Unfortunately I couldn't wait it out and do the work later because I was already due to start a new job in a few weeks time. Plus there were a group over in the UK that needed that work to proceed on their tasks.

                      Again there is that assessment of risk. The same one that I make every time I get on bicycle or into a car. Is the trip worth the death and injury risk? Or in going to work, was the probability of getting covid-19 from someone masked more than 7m away in a air-conditioned room against leaving tasks incomplete in my 8 week notice period and having them fracture my new job. Was one risk greater than another?

                      Everyone does that risk assessment all of time from birth. Because being alive means that at some point you are going die of a fatal disease anyway – it is called old age.

    • georgecom 6.9

      If Novavax was here in the country or shipments were arriving next week, sure, good and fine. Go and get double shot Sandra and great you are helping us get to 90% + vaccination. Novavax is not expected here until the first quarter of 2022, whenever that might be exactly. Or put it another way, Santa Claus will be here before Novavax and likely Covid will be in Thames before Novavax. The vaccine is not authorised in any country yet and has experienced delay after delay in seeking authorisation. It has had problems sorting out manufacturing sites and it's own corporate structure. I hope the company brings it through mind. Waiting for such a vaccine is pretty foolhardy, 3-6 months. Covid doesn't give a damn if you are waiting for Novavax, it won't go away and come back later it you explain that. If you dont want Pfizer ask for a jab of the Johnson&Johnson/Janssen vaccine because those are slated to arrive before christmas

  7. Kiwijoker 7

    Sandra is a contrarian populist whose world view was probably formed whilst staring at the back end of cows in the milking shed. In terms of cognitive ability Pooh bear comes to mind and her reported statements on vaccination are totally consistent with this observation.

    • JanM 7.1

      Not fair! Pooh was kind and listened to others – he wasn't a self-entitled brat

      • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1.1

        Pooh Bear was and still is the greatest, Hunny smiley

        Oh, help!” said Pooh. “I’d better go back.
        Oh, bother!” said Pooh. “I shall have to go on.
        I can’t do either!” said Pooh. “Oh, help and bother!

        An instructive message in these uncertain times; the team's options are narrowing.

  8. Jenny how to get there 8

    Those terrible climate scientists and health professionals, how dare they threaten our money.

    'Pandemic' levels of abuse aimed at scientists, public health experts around the world

    Brittney Deguara, Oct 14 2021

    ….scientists and experts across the ditch and around the world – including New Zealand – found many experienced vitriolic abuse after talking to media about the Covid-19 pandemic.

    …..In Australia alone, one in five scientists surveyed said they experienced death threats and/or threats of physical or sexual violence after speaking to media about the pandemic.

    …… researchers in the United States and Brazil found an even higher proportion of negative experiences.

    …..Fifteen per cent​ reported receiving death threats, 22 per cent​ had received threats of physical or sexual violence, and more than two-thirds​ reported negative experiences as a result of their media stints. Six​ scientists were even physically attacked.

    …..Dr Anthony Fauci, a prominent health figure in the US, also wasn't immune to the attacks. Throughout the pandemic, he had been fielding threats to his life and to the safety of his family, resulting in a security detail trailing him full time. He even drove an armoured vehicle.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126660917/covid19-pandemic-levels-of-abuse-aimed-at-scientists-public-health-experts-around-the-world

    Any Left Wing politician who dare side with scientists and health professionals over the pandemic or climate will suffer similar terroristic level Right Wing vitriolic abuse and death threats, as well as Right Wing pressure, and emotional blackmail from the banksters and financiers. God help them if they ever actually try to do something meaningful about the pandemic or the climate.
    No wonder so many Left Wing politicians surrender and give up.

    • Kirk-RS 8.1

      .

      @Jenny how to get there –

      In just one respect do I pray you are wrong — about people of capacity and principle giving up in the face of threats and actual violence.

      It is just at those moments when the threat or reality of bodily harm is greatest that people can achieve their highest purposes. This may not always express itself in material ways, but there is a spiritual dimension of reality that advances forward through the sacrifices people make, up to and including their lives on this plane of existence.

      I also pray that it won´t come down to some sort of ¨battle royale¨ between the ¨Left¨ and ¨Right¨ wings that you suggest.

      There is an old saying that it takes two wings working together for a bird to fly. The Baha´i Faith has adopted this as one of its favourite images of unity.

      Just imagine what would happen to a bird whose wings fought each other! How sad and comical that would be to someone observing this spectacle. So it would be for those observing humanity.

  9. Pete 9

    She's waiting for Novavax to be approved. With her farmer background she's probably wait for electric utes too.

    A lot to choose from. When they're approved in NZ.

    https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/

  10. Siobhan 10

    Why give her air space?

    A better conversation would be around how…yet again…Capitalism and supposed "Free- Market" forces, have, yet again, delivered us a far more expensive, far more problematic 'solution'.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/

    Unfortunately people insist on framing any questions about the covid response as being somehow conspiratorial or "anti Vax" ..which is all rather boring and frustrating.

    Its the same with Ivermectin…even though Oxford is currently starting another trial with it* ..and even though it wouldn't (potentially) be the first animal treatment to have human applications..(ie fenbendazole and Isoxazolines), you simply can not engage in a rational conversation about it ..even with people who should know better ..without being painted as Trumpist. or whatever.

    speaking of which ..just to preempt such a response ..I'm all for getting vaccinated, in fact I managed to nearly spread my double dose out to the sweet spot of 12 weeks gap. I also do not have a bathroom cabinet full of worming treatments.

    I'm just someone who can read ..and has a Scientist father who works as a Government adviser (not in NZ)..and understands that 'Science" is not a pure discipline ..Governments and corporations warp even the most noble scientific mind, sometimes even quite unconsciously ..and it would seem, Governments and Corporations are quite capable of lying to themselves..

    https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-06-23-ivermectin-be-investigated-possible-treatment-covid-19-oxford-s-principle-trial

    • francesca 10.1

      Actually Ivermectin has been used a lot for human parasitic control, and there are epimediological studies for its use in humans to reduce serious cases and hospitalisations of covid with home kits early on in the infection

      • roblogic 10.1.1

        youtube videos?? for fucks sake.

        where are the peer reviewed meta analyses from reputable medical journals.

        • McFlock 10.1.1.1

          Oh, they're all corrupted by big pharma, dontcha know.

          • Forget now 10.1.1.1.1

            I rather think that they are keeping their heads down at this point; McFlock (see also; JennyHTGT's upthread at comment 8):

            In early 2021, my research team was analysing a new drug called ivermectin. In the first clinical trials, this drug seemed to prevent new infections and improve survival. When I first wrote about this, I started getting regular threats on Twitter, demanding that ivermectin should be approved worldwide and questioning the safety of vaccines…

            However, we then found several examples of medical fraud in the clinical trials of ivermectin: some of the databases had been simply made up by unscrupulous doctors. When we filtered out all the poor-quality clinical trials, there was no longer any clinical benefit for ivermectin.

            After we reported on the medical fraud in July 2021, the abuse became much worse. I was sent images of Nazi war criminals hanging from lamp-posts, Voodoo images of swinging coffins, vivid threats that my family were not safe, that we would all burn in hell. This was happening most days – I opened my laptop in the morning to be confronted with a sea of hate and disturbing threats. Twitter did nothing after I reported these threats. So I had to shut down social media.

            https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/13/how-my-ivermectin-research-led-to-twitter-death-threats

        • weka 10.1.1.2

          are you suggesting that people never get health information apart from reading clinical trials or meta analyses?

          • roblogic 10.1.1.2.1

            i can parse a 10 page paper a lot faster than sitting through an hour of boring youtube.

            also sick of vaccine hesitant acquaintances offering YT preachers as some kind of authority

            • RedLogix 10.1.1.2.1.1

              Good for you – although I'd bet good money I speed read faster than you, that doesn't mean I'm going to sneer at YT. Both have their place.

              • chris T

                Sorry to butt in, but that sounds like a cool thing to check.

                Sorry. Get interested in boring things.

                Proposal.

                Article of a certain length of words is posted. For 20-30 seconds. Or less or more.

                IDeleted. Poster of said article asks question about something mentioned.

                First to get it right wins.

                Would need to be original so can't google.

                More I think about it , she is a bit lame, but personally find it also cool. Feel free to tell me that is dumbarse Chris T if stupid. I can handle it

                • RedLogix

                  It's not all about 'how fast can I read or watch it'. There is a distinct cognitive difference between reading and being engaged with video that makes comparing them on a raw time basis kind of pointless in my view.

                  • chris T

                    yes

                    Fair call.

                    Then a question about the content context rather than direct quote, from an independent poster.

                    I know. lame. and your obviously not into it, so ignore

                  • francesca

                    personally I far prefer reading, but I'm impressed by this guy, (Dr John Campbell with a YT channel) no lengthy preamble, straight in to it ,well referenced,of a scientific bent, no fluff)

                    • Forget now

                      The only thing I needed to read on that YT video was the publication date; 2 Jun 2021. Which was before much of the research on which the meta analyses were based was demonstrated to be fraudulent. However good the analysis, if it is based on false data, then it is a waste of time to watch on 14 October 2021. GIGO!

              • roblogic

                YT has been another vector of gross misinformation so I am increasingly allergic and grumpy

    • roblogic 10.2

      a successful public health response has to be very simple and communicated well.

      a bunch of confusing mixed messages about alternative treatments is not that. it is just thicko behaviour to rave on about the dangers of vaccines and how face masks are useless, then go and fuck up your internal organs by swallowing a horse sized dose of ivermectin.

      never underestimate the stupidity of the average human

      • francesca 10.2.1

        So you didn't look at the link

        Will you be incensed by the Oxford study?Mentioned in the Jesse Mulligan link?

        Dr Campbell is an ardent advocate of covid vaccines, believes in masks and distancing etc and certainly does not convey mixed messages about alternative medicines.

        Rants like yours don't help

        • roblogic 10.2.1.1

          if the subject was not already polluted by American anti-vaxxers you might have a point. but at this moment in a global pandemic the public doesn't need "in progress" "promising" treatments that have already been dangerously misused by conspiracy-mongers.

          ivermectin is a dangerous distraction from important public health messaging

          • francesca 10.2.1.1.1

            I see. So you'll accept the new Merck treatment because although it comes at a huge cost , and may not be hugely effective, and its safety issues are not yet resolved it hasn't been polluted by social media.

            Your horse parasite/ deplorables/dumbasses is a further pollution of a subject that is being taken seriously by Oxford at present

            If ivermectin does prove to be cheap and effective on its own or in combination with other drugs in the early stages of infection, its use is already permanently hobbled and probably wrecked by the horse dose slurs and neigh sayers …pun intended

          • Shanreagh 10.2.1.1.2

            Agree the most important public messaging is have the vaccinations.

            Treatments for those who get Covid are not part of this message.

            That is why I get a bit annoyed when people divert the vaccination message away from vaccination and onto treatment options. Vaccination or treatment are not the either/ors

            Sure look at Covid treatment options as separate streams of work.

            At the moment our public health messaging efforts should be on vaccination as a prevention and as a way to minimise the effects if a person gets Covid

      • Siobhan 10.2.2

        Thanks for illustrating my point.

        I had thought that The Standard could be one place for intelligent conversation..it is not the public face of the Governments covid response.

        It is meant to be a place where politically engaged people debate the merits or otherwise of Government and societal endeavors.

        You know, a place where grown ups don't need to pretend Santa exists incase it upsets the children..

        • francesca 10.2.2.1

          Gawd Siobhan , I hate the way the replies get out of whack

          Were you responding to me , or some other ?

          Just to be clear, I am double vaxxed and resent having to preface my covid remarks with this.

          I can't understand why some can't get that both therapeutics and vaccine are valuable tools.I'm in favour of both , and would like to keep an open mind and discuss without the smartarse put downs .

          Appreciate your input greatly

    • SPC 10.3

      Yale School of medicine guy looks at Ivermectin

    • Kirk-RS 10.4

      .

      @Siobhan –

      I really appreciate what you say. I share your desire to have a different and better quality consultation about the pandemic and responses to it.

      One reason people tend to hand over control to ¨the market¨ is that humanity thus far lacks the commitment to using and further developing the tools at its disposal to consciously act in a unified fashion.

      Neoliberal economics is actually a religion of sorts in disguise. It has its own high priesthood of economists devoted to the ¨invisible hand¨ — a faith-based belief in something that is not seen or well understood even by the experts. The best econometric and behavioural economics research cannot pin down the precise workings of the market, even for a limited period of time. If that is not the definition of a religion, I don´t know what is!

      Unfortunately, as you point out in the case of the pandemic, the neoliberal religion is a false one, full of costs to those not part of the charmed inner circle of believers and practitioners. The power of computer programming, apparently well known to a number of the primary founders and operators of The Standard, may be perilously close to fully gaming the operations of stocks, bonds and commodities markets. This may quickly transform market heaven into its hellish opposite for all but the ¨one percent¨ — or possibly even limit most of the material benefits to the ¨one-tenth percent¨.

      Another, very deep and abiding problem is what you say about scientists like your father. They are people, too, of course, liable to the same individual foibles as those of us without their particular expertise. What you say about their ability to be misdirected even without consciously realising it is especially chilling, because it is so often true.

      There can be no snap solutions to such deep-laid problems. However, we can all choose to make a commitment to work together with as many people harbouring as many diverse views as can be realistically accommodated in a given situation.

      Collective study and investigation by diverse people with different ethnic, gender, and intellectual perspectives offers a slow but steadily effective way for humanity to find its way to better material and spiritual conditions.

      So, how might this work with Mayor Goudie? We could perhaps begin by appreciating that she has real concerns about what substances end up in her body. She may not have put it that way, but her reluctance to come out and declare herself anti-vaxx, anti-mandate, and anti-climate change suggests that political confrontation may actually not be her primary motivation. The same might also be said of another controversial figure, the Maori fundamentalist Reverend Brian Tamaki. Sometimes, braggadocio disguises insecurities and worries. Revealing this can be embarrassing, so approaching such matters must be done respectfully and if possible delicately, with due attention to a person´s concerns and sensibilities.

      The Atlantic article about NovaVax that you cited is an important one, I think. The author is a research analyst who points out that there was as much luck and political manoeuvring as science involved in giving the new mRNA vaccines the lead over more traditional modalities like NovaVax, which uses technology like long-accepted childhood vaccines such as pertussis and the hepatitis B vaccine for adults.

      If it turns out that NovaVax is as effective as the two successful mRNA vaccines, Pfizer & Moderna (the other mRNA candidates have all encountered serious problems), then might that not offer a strategy for vaccinating the hesitant with something that seems more traditional but is still very potent?

      This is the question that the article´s science-based author asks, and it comes pretty close to supporting Mayor Goudie´s stated intention to wait for NovaVax. That may suggest that Goudie is not so primitive, stupid, anti-social and unscientific as some have implied. That doesn´t make her right or justify all her behaviours, but it suggests the picture is more nuanced and complicated than the simple one of Good vs Evil or Smart vs Stupid being drawn in this case.

      It also offers an opening to begin a new kind of dialogue that doesn´t simply rehash a political party struggle or cultural war.

      That may prove a little less boring and frustrating, I think!

  11. dv 11

    Does she contract trace?

    Seems sorta similar to the prostitutes in blenheim fron auckland.

  12. Powerman 12

    Sandra has given the most embarrassing and damaging radio comment since Michael Boage tottered off into the sunset.

  13. Ad 13

    At this point and 71 cases and rising every day, no one from Auckland is going to be listened to in the provinces.

    Anyone betting Cabinet proposes a week of Level 4 starting Monday night?

    • Patricia Bremner 13.1

      No I believe we are entering a new phase of the pandemic which involves high rates of vaccination health measures and staged return to most aspects of commerce, so I would surprised but pleased if they locked down for a week to ten days. It would require more direct support given to struggling businesses though. They want this transition when it is warmer and fine, as outside transmission seems negligible. imo.

    • weka 13.2

      I hope they do.

    • Stuart Munro 13.3

      Cabinet seem to have been listening to unreliable media voices:

      Hosking, Malpass, DuPlessis Alien, etc.: We must join with Covid, Jacinda. We must join with it. It would be wise, my friend.

      • Patricia Bremner 13.3.1

        An uncle of mine would have called those 3 opinionators… "bluddy idjuts"

        • Stuart Munro 13.3.1.1

          It would be amusing if the state took a civil action against them for the costs of extending the lockdown – broke and sorry liars is a happy ending for the rest of us.

    • SPC 13.4

      They said they would not return to Level 4 after they went to Level 3 (maybe to divert attention form the issue of giving up on elimination).

      At some point doing this for a week or two will be necessary – given its 2 weeks after the second dose there is full immunity – to protect the health system in Auckland.

      It's slow it now, or slow it later. When it gets to the point that cluster management is difficult, any reluctance to do it will wane.

      The introduction and effectiveness of rapid result testing would help – but it seems a lot if this is now household to household contact.

  14. Tiger Mountain 14

    Novavax was formed in 1987 to develop experimental vaccines–and as several US sources as well as Wiki have pointed out–it is yet to complete commercialisation of any vaccine product! Good choice Sandra Goudie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novavax

    She is indeed a contrarian and a bit of a lunkhead going by her own statements. It only matters because a few of the local sheep shaggers might listen to her, and that could affect public health. People in leadership positions should be responsible in a pandemic whatever their personal views. She could end up barred from Council premises with her attitude.

    • JanM 14.1

      Isn't she in the area that once voted Jeannette Fitzsimmons into parliament? If so what have they been putting in the water to make them vote for a nincompoop like Sandra?

      • Tiger Mountain 14.1.1

        Some of my long time green mates (one stood as a Green Party candidate) in the Far North are not impressed with similar views in their neighbourhoods from people they have been friends with for years, into permaculture, organics, and sustainable land use etc. etc. And now, anti COVID vaccination.

        There is a weird nexus it seems in many countries between old school fascists, neo fascists, conspiracists of many stripes, and sections of deep greens, anarchists and low info people just not into running with the herd.

        • Andre 14.1.1.1

          That nexus is clearly visible here on The Standard.

        • Kirk-RS 14.1.1.2

          .

          @Tiger Mountain –

          One person´s ¨weird nexus¨ may be another´s opportunity to cross old intellectual barriers and find new ways forward.

          Risky? Sure, at least sometimes. There is the risk of losing accustomed signposts and guidelines for conventional living. And there is also the risk of being sucked down a particularly nasty rabbit-hole into fascism or anarchism.

          But if we stick together, help catch each other before we fall down the rabbit-holes, and be on the lookout for new possibilities, we might actually find ways of escaping our troubles and making some genuine collective progress.

          This would have been mere blue-sky daydreaming even a decade ago. But these recent ¨weird nexuses¨ you have noticed may offer humanity some genuine opportunities.

          • Tiger Mountain 14.1.1.2.1

            Am all for “uniting all who can be united” on many issues.

            Anti vaccination activity during a pandemic is not on my list however!

  15. This is an interesting comment on resistance on vaccination from a conservative body even if a little old. Might have post it before.

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/09/08/vaccine-mandate-strong-supreme-court-precedent-510280

    • Kirk-RS 15.1

      .

      @Mad Plumber –

      Yes, that is a famous USA Supreme Court case, Jacobson v Massachusetts (1905).

      Those were the days when conservatives really conserved things! In this case, they were conserving social order against those who claimed personal liberty was always more important. The decisive 7-2 decision in this case set definite social limits around personal liberty, particularly in an emergency.

      Not so long ago, things flipped. Suddenly people calling themselves ¨conservative¨ were the ones asserting absolute personal liberty claims that once were the sole preserve of ¨left-wing anarchists¨.

      It will be a long while before a fully satisfactory explanation for this flip-flop can be offered. For now, I settle for the ¨adolescent explosion¨ hypothesis. In simple terms, our collective maturity has passed from the stage of elder childhood — think 9-12 year-olds: very smart, emotionally stable for the most part, largely innocent of hormones, still very cooperative with parents and other authorities — into the difficulties of adolescence.

      One sure sign of this transition is the upsurge of gang leaders. Once there was just Vlad Putin in Russia. Now there are plenty more, including the once (and future?) Donald Trump in the USA, Bolsonaro in Brazil, Erdogan in Turkey, Orban in Hungary, Duterte in the Philippines, Modi in India, Netanyahu (also once and future?) in Israel, Zuma in South Africa (formerly), al-Sisi in Egypt, the rather shaggy (in more ways than one) Boris Johnson in the UK, and the biggest and baddest of the lot (far too close to the Tasman for my taste) Xi Jinping of China. (I could include Kim Jong-un, but North Korea´s Supreme Family remains unique unto itself in my view.)

      These guys (all men thus far, unless Marine Le Pen in France, Keiko Fugimori in Peru, or Duterte´s daughter Sara rise to or are placed in power) are not traditional dictators. Most aspire to higher political and even more transcendent values, but do not hesitate to twist current legal and social structures to their personal will. Like all gang leaders, they take advantage of the social vertigo that currently permeates societies everywhere thanks to the Internet, AI and other things to attract people who feel they need a strong leader to protect them, assert their brand, or both. The relationship is often worshipful — hence the Trump ¨MAGA¨ Base (in Arabic, the preferred term for base is al-quidah).

      Our world may seem more than a bit deranged, but that is the teenage experience, particularly in the early going up to age 16 or so. After that, things usually start to settle down a bit.

      How long will our world remain in an early-adolescent stage? I wish it would be just a few years like with most individuals, but more likely it will go on for decades, possibly even a century or more. Take a good hold of something. It gets bumpy from here!

      The bit I hang onto tightly in all this is that whatever you may think of them, teenagers are more mature than the best 10-year-old. No one has figured out a way for people to jump from age 10 to age 20 like Superman leaping tall buildings at a single bound. We just have to slog our way through it, somehow.

      The same will be true for all of human society during its painful but necessary adolescence.

  16. observer 16

    The other poll on vaccinations (UMR/Talbot Mills, not Curia) has some interesting results.

    -Very high support for vax mandates.

    -91% now say they will get vaccinated. "Anti" numbers declining steadily.

    And just on Goudie and the Nats, it is worth pointing out that every National MP is getting vaccinated (even Maureen Pugh, who was hesitant before). They are wrong about many things, but they are not an anti-vax party. Goudie is an outlier.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/majority-support-for-no-jab-no-job-across-several-sectors-new-poll/UE5BUJEQYPYF3NKEBWOPQTM3WU/

  17. I just can't get over the fact that she said she was 'doing her own research. Even if she is doing this it plunges her straight into the followers of the Trumpian, good 'ol boys, Southern States & US Bible Belt, goatee and beard wearing rabid anti vaxxers. These colorful creatures also use this phrase.

    PS I won't comment on the car, looks great but these feature also, usually with the Confederate flag in some of the highlights from the Farcebooks of these US anti vaxxers. wink

    • Patricia Bremner 17.1

      yes

    • Andre 17.2

      Did her own research indeed!

      It seems to be a quirk of human behaviour that mostly the decision comes first, then the search for reasons and excuses to justify that decision.

      • North 17.2.4

        "I've done my research !" is not unlike "Read the transcript !" from Trump cultists. Must say however that having left The Standard probably a couple of years ago for the foulness of the Trump cult presence , the vaccination discussion here gives the 'appearance' of being quite impressively well informed and genuinely argued. Not that I could really tell of course, not having 'done my research'. My contribution can therefore be only this: double shotted, didn't die, not involuntarily connected to the Dark Web, testicles not swollen, the family silver not flying through the air to clamp magnetically to my forehead. Oh also, extremely suspicious of Marjorie Taylor Goudie. Pfizer's a great vaccine on the last score alone I feel smiley .

    • Kirk-RS 17.3

      .

      @Shanreagh –

      ¨Doing my own research¨ is the battle cry of our times, don´t you know!

      Let´s unpack it a bit.

      ¨Doing¨ means independent investigation. Children wait to be told what to do or accept guidance/punishment with little resistance. Adolescents do their own thing, because accepting authority is no longer good enough.

      ¨my own¨ means it´s mine, I own it. You may say it´s just plagiarised from the Internet or social media, and you´d frequently be right, technically. But that doesn´t change the feeling, the thrill of new discovery (at least subjectively, if not objectively). I´ve taught teens in school, and you cannot convince them that what they´re doing is mere copying. For them, it´s all theirs, and amounts to a kind of declaration of intellectual independence. Criticism and even punishment be damned! Also, ¨my body, my choice¨ fits like a glove with this outlook. There is no standard unless I happen to decide to adopt it!

      ¨research¨ means its a major investigation to find the real story, the Truth with a capital T. Even if it´s just chasing down the latest rumour about some teen idol or K-pop band, it´s really important because I´m the one doing it and I can tell my mob all about it.

      Ok, so even if you know this is frequently true for real teenagers, particularly age 13-16, what does this have to do with someone of Mayor Goudie´s age? Well, if she were a unique case, she should see a therapist to catch her up to her true mentality. But of course she is far from unique, although she may be still be quite edgy.

      I think we all feel the tremors of this global social earthquake well enough by now to sense that Ms Goudie is not simply a pure outlier or weirdo. Something much bigger and more important is going on.

      Perhaps the fact that even heavy majorities no longer seem able to rule very effectively anywhere in the world gives us a clue.

  18. Ross 18

    Her body, her choice. Ironically, some are suggesting what she should do with her body. She isn’t telling others what to do with theirs although one can imagine what she might be thinking. 🙂

    What is also kind of amusing is that if she said she was going to commit suicide by way of the new legislation, because she had a terminal illness, she would likely be criticised for doing so. It’s a strange world.

    • Gezza 18.1

      As whataboutisms go, that one’s pretty desperate. 😐

      • Ross 18.1.1

        Let's look at the issue of informed consent. According to the Health and Disability Commissioner Act 1994, "no health care procedure shall be carried out without informed consent". According to the Health and Disability Commissioner (Code of Health and Disability Services Consumers' Rights) Regulations 1996:

        Every consumer has the right to the information that a reasonable consumer, in that consumer's circumstances, would expect to receive, including— an explanation of the options available, including an assessment of the expected risks, side effects, benefits, and costs of each option.

        Seems reasonable.

        • miravox 18.1.1.1

          Worth a read in the context of a pandemic and public health imperatives:

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300170750/covid19-can-governments-mandate-a-vaccination-balancing-public-health-with-human-rights–and-what-the-law-says

          Written in for Australia, but I imagine it's pretty similar in NZ.

        • Gezza 18.1.1.2

          Someone with a terminal illness facing the prospect of an ignominious and/or painful death opting to choose assisted suicide to pass away while still in a comparatively better physical / mental state would already have made that decision with informed consent.

          That situation is quite a different matter from someone else choosing not to be vaccinated against C29 – thus posing a risk to themselves and others from Covid-19. There is plenty of information about Pfizer vaccine as to the risks, side effects, benefits & contraindications. As it's being paid for by the taxpayer, cost to the individual doesn't really come into it.

          • Ross 18.1.1.2.1

            thus posing a risk to themselves and others from Covid-19

            That’s a simplistic response.

            People who are obese or live an unhealthy lifestyle pose a risk to themselves but we don’t demonise them. Women who have abortions may pose a risk to themselves and certainly to the unborn child. Again we don’t generally demonise those women, and rightly so.

            You have not discussed the fact that fully vaccinated people can transmit the virus. That is a significant omission. Similarly, vaccinated people can transmit the flu virus which is estimated to kill 500-600 people in NZ each year, despite the existence of a vaccine. People can and do go to the office, among other places, while they have the flu. That may impact on others’ health. Many health professionals do not get vaccinated against the flu, despite the possibility of dying from the flu. We allow people to make their own decisions, which may well impact others.

            You haven’t discussed the risk of catching Covid, the risk of hospitalisation or the risk of death. Those are important considerations when deciding whether to be vaccinated. A study was published earlier this year discussing the various reasons why some people were unlikely to be vaccinated against Covid. I don’t have them in front of me but the need for more information was one of the reasons.

            The issue of informed consent requires more time than I have right now but I hope to discuss because it’s crucial.

          • Kirk-RS 18.1.1.2.2

            .

            @Gezza –

            All very true, very sober, very sensible.

            And yet…

            Whole generations have now been raised to expect that their formal educations and degrees certify them to be experts or at least free thinkers. Just telling them things, even extraordinarily sensible things, does not ensure everyone´s cooperation.

            Large numbers of people expect to be involved in decision making. The more you treat them like cattle, the more like bucking broncos they become!

            Some people who feel oppressed, including some who genuinely have been (women, indigenous, etc), sense that they now have the power to at least disrupt the powerful from getting their way. They are trying out the levers of power, and they find that they can really stop up the drains!

            I am convinced that this has been going on during the pandemic, particularly amongst indigenous people who have long felt alienated from an unwelcoming society. All they had to do was do a walkabout while infected, and see how leadership at the highest levels was made to sit up and beg.

            I do not advocate such behaviour, and you are completely right about its negative effects. Yet there is little point in denying that it meets some people´s needs at some levels. Sober warnings, however well founded, appear to act like petrol tossed on a bonfire. Somehow, some way, another kind of response and approach needs to be developed.

            Perhaps that is why Government is no longer so keen to order people into Level 4 lockdowns, but runs ¨vaxathons¨ and ¨Super Saturday¨ to jolly them along into some form of voluntary cooperation around vaccination.

            It may seem silly when there are police at every checkpoint, but a maturing population can no longer be treated like children. To do otherwise is to end up behaving like a monster towards the citizenry, the way Lucashenko has done in Belarus.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 18.2

      "Her body, her choice."

      Her choice to deprive another body of a hospital bed when she occupies it after succumbing to a preventable case of Covid?

      Her choice to pass infection to other bodies?

      She is forcing her choice on others with her stupid decisions.

      • Kirk-RS 18.2.1

        .

        @UncookedSelachimorpha –

        I find your medical maths a bit disconcerting.

        Anyone occupying a hospital bed in some sense ¨denies¨ it to another.

        And many people end up in hospital for preventable conditions related to bad eating, poor exercise, drugs use, tobacco use, and the like. These could be characterised as ¨stupid behaviours¨.

        Perhaps if your views on COVID were applied consistently throughout medicine, it might be worthwhile. However, I would expect there to be serious opposition, rising to the level of outright rebellion in some.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 18.2.1.1

          I have not said there are not other choices that result in avoidable use of a hospital bed.

          However in the UK, USA there are clear examples of hospital capacity being overwhelmed by avoidable covid cases, depriving others of access to health care. This is what we should minimise, by making good choices.

          I am not saying anyone should be held down and vaccinated – to reject a safe vaccine remains Goudie's choice – and the choice she is choosing is a stupid one, in my opinion.

  19. Tricledrown 19

    Just heard Federated farmers Southland representative on RNZ saying he's not getting vaccinated because it could mean 2 days off work unlikely in most cases.

    So if he gets covid he may not be alive to run his farm or have long covid and be unable to farm at all.

    Yet he has had all his other vaccinations wow how dumb is that.

    Farming could be in dire straits if that's the level of lack of leadership it sounds like self sabotage.

    • Peter 19.1

      If he lives that remote it's going to take him a whole day he's unlikely to be in contact with anyone else so won't get the virus.

      If he ever comes out to interact with civilisation, like go to a bank or pick up supplies, he can get his vaccination at the same time.

      In that case he won't be 'off work' just to get a vaccination.

      Sounds like he's playing silly politics, he's scared of getting an injection or he's just dumb.

      • Ross 19.1.1

        There could be various reasons, among them that he thinks it’s unlikely he will get the virus, or that he will recover from the virus. Of course, a lack of informed consent might be another reason. I find that listening to people rather than demonising them is a far better use of my time.

        • woodart 19.1.1.1

          sure, listen to them, then laugh at their bullshit. two days off work? bollocks! its nearly as silly as tradies saying they dont have the time to get vaccinated, but have the time to go to the pie shop. the excuses are getting lamer and sillier.

          • Kirk-RS 19.1.1.1.1

            .

            @woodart –

            The two days off is not to get the jab, it´s to recover from side effects.

            I needed a couple days after the 2d jab. I had a serious shingles attack, despite having been fully vaccinated for shingles 3 years ago. I think the Pfizer has dented my shingles protection. And those two days were like having the itchy chicken pox all over again, but without the skin eruptions.

            I don´t mind it, since I believe it was a necessary personal sacrifice to protect society. And I don´t dwell on it to avoid encouraging the hesitant to hesitate further. If NovaVax turns out to be as effective and side-effect-free as trials so far suggest, I would like to get that jab going forward if it proves to be a suitable booster and mixing different vaccines proves workable.

            Making light of the tradies? Hmm. I thought The Standard was a labour movement type of forum. Of course, all reasonable opinions are welcome. Still, is stereotyping pie-eating tradies really fair? I suppose the moderators could decide about that…

          • North 19.1.1.1.2

            Plenty of time to prop themselves up against bars in pubs and clubs bullshitting on about this and that and pretty communists. You know the type.

    • Kirk-RS 19.2

      .

      @Tricledrown –

      Rather than letting essential work like farming fall into dire straits, why not listen to the concerns that farmer on RNZ and other ¨essential workers¨ have expressed about vaccine side effects? They appear to be real and fairly common, though mostly short-lived.

      Why not offer supports so people can feel comfortable taking a day or two off to get over it? Government has offered massive support to business, with trickledown to a number of employees. This model won´t work very well for gig workers or farmers, and apparently not for a number of Maori as well.

      Why not adjust the model rather than call people names, blame them, and behave like that is a good enough response?

      The key to ending the pandemic is maximum cooperation, right? If that is the goal, why stop short of achieving it and substitute harsh words for sensible action?

      Now that is what would call self-sabotage, but on a social scale!

  20. Kirk-RS 20

    One thing about the original post puzzles me.

    Consider the following selection:

    Doubling down Goudie then chose to comment on the legal situation regarding vaccine mandates and said that the Covid legislation should be consistent with the Bill of Rights, presumably the section that says that people have the right to refuse medical treatment. This section is subject to section 5 which says that “the rights and freedoms contained in this Bill of Rights may be subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society”. Some form of limit in the middle of a global pandemic is appropriate. And requiring people in public facing roles to be vaccinated in my view can be demonstrably justified.

    Aotearoa/NZ has a well developed judiciary, with a Supreme Court fully capable of ruling on the constitutional issues raised above.

    Yet there seems to be no movement whatsoever to have judicial review of the mandates and civil rights claims.

    Can anyone explain why this is so?

  21. Mark Craig 21

    I am on a building site in Queensland.100 tradies all 100% vaxxed.For me no side efects and straight back to work.The pie and espresso consumption on this site is at stratospheric levels in the morning.arvo's after work is for some serious thirst quenching bevvies.hitting 35 degrees now and getting hotter.

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