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Growing our own Breivik

Written By: - Date published: 11:50 am, July 26th, 2011 - 152 comments
Categories: ACC, crime - Tags:

Just after Irish has discussed how little it takes to jump from the violent language of the NZ Right to the violent actions of Anders Breivik (and an ‘expert‘ had said it can’t happen here), we learn of a rabidly anti-socialist businessman who planned a van-bomb attack on ACC.

Alan Thomas has been convicted of charges arising from plans to set off the fire alarm at an ACC office, then set of a nail-packed van bomb when the staff gathered outside. Amazingly, this plan, which had progressed to downloading bomb making manuals, has resulted in just 10 months home detention.

You can get a taste of Thomas’s anti-‘socialist’ views on the ACC Forums, which he apparently wrecked nearly single-handed with his rants – although you’ll find his comments tame compared to the fare found on rightwing blogs. He posted images of Helen Clark as a Soviet Marshal and made homophobic remarks – the kind of stuff you can see any day on Whaleoil.

Thomas also judged acceptable enough by the institutional Right that Bill Birch spoke at one of his get rich quick seminars (why do the rich always want to get rich, and quick, even if it means trying to rip off a ‘socialist’ institution they hate?). Likewise, the perpetrators of violent and divisive language on the Right are still embraced by its leadership here and, more notably, in the US.

The point is not that all rightwingers are on the edge of becoming murderers but that the violent language and hate-filled imagery they use makes the leap to real violence for some more easy, more likely, for some on the Right.

Time for a more responsible discourse from the Right.

152 comments on “Growing our own Breivik”

  1. higherstandard 1

    Does this site do anything apart from dogwhistling anymore ?

    Come back Marty G and Clinton Smith I miss the graphs.

    • lprent 1.1

      Well I seem to h ave seen quite a few interesting charts go through recently. I was particularly impressed by Eddies over the weekend.

      And I see some more guest ones that I have to pull out and post. But election season has started so these often get pushed out of ‘primetime’

      • higherstandard 1.1.1

        All good.

        No surprising that there’s a significant amount of frothing leading into the election – I think the NZ political interwebs will hit a even higher peak of inanity than in 2008.

        Pretty much at the moment it consists of abuse of Key for another turgid comment followed by a rebuttal of abuse for Goff for an equally turgid comment, then a decent into screeching of RWNJ vs LWNJ not realising that the pretty much the same beast – bit like watching a group of parents at a kids sports game who have lost the plot.

        • chris73 1.1.1.1

          Being part of the screeching I still have to say this is a pretty accurate summation of life on political blogs

        • lprent 1.1.1.2

          Well ideally we’d argue about policy.

          However neither the media nor many of the near trolls that frequent the blogs actually give that much of a shit about policy. For that matter policy for many political parties appears to be something they often prefer to conceal* rather than espouse this far from an election. Anyway much of the media and the near trolls see capable of understanding something as abstract as policy unless someone writes some bullet points.

          Of course there are some sites that do argue about policy. Kiwipolitico comes to mind (fails to find one on the right – maybe that libertarianz site?). But policy sites do tend to be a bit dull.

          Despite all of the froth, on the way through we get posts and comments that I like to read – and so evidentially the non-trolls who are worth listening to. And the rest is kind of amusing.

          In any case, a lot of the site traffic is based around pushing and testing messages from various sides and angles and arguing about them – the quintessential essence of political debate with a bit of humor and a certain amount of moderation (just like the house). Sometimes amusing. Sometimes it starts boring me to tears with the drivel – in which case I tend to close down the ‘debate’ because it is going nowhere (my assumption is that if I’m bored with seeing repetitive chanting of slogans and taunts then everyone else will be as well – I don’t get too many complaints :twisted:).

          By the sound of it, that Norwegian would have been turfed from here for being a humorless idiot.

          But if you want a serious site where you won’t get bored… Ummm The Economist blogs are always fun (for me).

          But political blogs are fun when people are robustly arguing – and you can have a sense of amusement about the topics you’re uninterested in.

          * The Labour opposition is however doing a credible attempt to put out policy outlines well before the election. Makes a change from the cretins in National opposition last election with their meaningless bullet points and idiotic mantra of tax-cuts.

          • Sam 1.1.1.2.1

            I like it how quite often someone will step back and try to make the conversation more civil, only for it to turn into a shouting match a few posts later. At least you can’t call anyone on here insincere, they stand by their fucked up views.

            • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.2.1.1

              Someone calls for a race war in gunning down 80+ Labour Party Youth Movement members and you are looking for a ‘civil discussion’?

              Join a gardening group perhaps?

  2. So a nutter wanting to nail bomb the ACC is something that shouldn’t be talked about then?

    Why are you and your ilk always so keen to define the boundaries of acceptable discussion for us?

    Please move on, nothing to see here…

    • Vicky32 2.1

      I wonder why I had heard nothing about this crack-pot until I read it here? Thank God he didn’t actually do it, or we’d be having a different conversation…

  3. Todd 3

    This guy is a complete idiot, whether he votes left or right is complete nonsense and most people will see it this way.Seems to me over here on this site that the important points are left is good right is bad.This doesn’t concern me but i dont know how many people would believe it,not judging by how popular the so called right is at the moment.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1

      whether he votes left or right is complete nonsense

      Make no mistake – this dude votes right.

      …popular the so called right is at the moment.

      Popularity doesn’t prove that it’s morally right.

      • Colonial Viper 3.1.1

        And they’re not that popular. If National & cohorts truly believed that they could rule with an outright majority, they wouldn’t be trying to prop ACT up and be playing silly buggers in general.

        5% of NZ’ers earn more than $90K p.a.

        50% earn less than $30K p.a.

        When peeps starting waking up, NAT is fraked.

  4. Peter Bains 4

    At least this guy is more honest about his intentions than Goff regarding SIS matters.

    • McFlock 4.1

      Ah – so in your tory paradise, claiming “flicked by” =/= “thorough briefing” is morally  worse than “planning to nail-bomb innocent people”.

      Get some perspective, dickwad.

      • Ten Miles Over 4.1.1

        First time I’ve heard “thorough briefing” mentioned, do you have a link to where anyone has said that prior to yourself?

        • McFlock 4.1.1.1

          fair enough, rephrase:

          Ah – so in your tory paradise, claiming “flicked by” =/= “briefed” is morally  worse than “planning to nail-bomb innocent people”.

          My, what a substantive rephrase that was. Now you get to slide the thread into whether there is a major difference between “briefed” and “thorough briefing”, away from the fact that someone actually compared EITHER interpretation with mass murder.
           

          Get some perspective, dickwad.

          • bbfloyd 4.1.1.1.1

            mcflock,… you don’t happen to be a professional contortionist in real life do you? i’ve read your comment five times now and i feel like a pretzel.

            can you give me the ciphers so that i can decode it please?

            • McFlock 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Peter Bains stated that someone who commits mass murder is “more honest about his intentions than Goff regarding SIS matters.”. I took exception to the concept that the two are morally comparable, and suggested that in my opinion this indicates Bains is metaphorically a “dickwad”.
              TMO implicitly drew my attention to the fact that I used the words “thorough briefing” where I should have said “briefed”. I rephrased, and suggested that being passive-aggressive about the use of the word “thoroughly”  in that context was disingenuous enough to also earn the title “dickwad”.
               
              Personally I think the two are completely separate conversations.
               
              Better?

  5. Time for a more responsible discourse from the Right.

    Yes. And from the centre and the left don’t you think?

  6. Tell us all about this “irresponsible discourse” then Pete.

  7. queenstfarmer 7

    Oh boy, another disgraceful post, this time attempting to link the actions of a loon criminal with “the Right”.

    Presumably you would advocate finding out who each person guilty of serious crimes (or terror-related charges) last voted for (or “associated with”), and then blame all members of that party / group / affiliation, and then make the comment “not that all [insert group here] are on the edge of becoming murderers…”

    Lets pick one: Stalin murdered people. The point is not that all socialists are on the edge of becoming murderers but that the violent language and hate-filled imagery they use makes the leap to real violence for some more easy, more likely, for some on the Left.

    • Colonial Viper 7.1

      ahem the old Socialist Republic there was not socialist.

      Centrally planned dictatorial stateism is not socialism.

      • The Voice of Reason 7.1.1

        Er, actually it was socialist, CV. It certainly went off the rails under Uncle Joe’s leadership, but the seeds for that were the West’s intervention in the years immediately after the revolution and the attempted assasination of Lenin, which weakened his leadrship until his early death. Trotsky’s immaturity didn’t help much either. 
         
        While the Soviet Union may not be a terrific advert for socialism in toto, it definitely had a few good years under VI Lenin where it was a beacon to the progressive world. If he’d lived, the outcome may have been radically different, though, clearly, Stalin was the right leader for them to have in the early forties.
         
         

        • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1

          Er, actually it was socialist,

          Not quite.

          Socialism depended, for Lenin, on the mass activity of workers, who would themselves put into practice the policies of their centrally elected bodies. This is what a workers state means, and this is what happened in Russia in the first few months of the revolution.
          But over the next 12 years, this state was transformed into its opposite.

          Russia: The Making of the Revolution by Steve Wright

          I’ve seen estimates that socialism/commun1sm lasted about 50 days after the revolution.

        • bbfloyd 7.1.1.2

          t.v.o.r.. you talk like you know your subject…. shame it’s an illusion.

          • The Voice of Reason 7.1.1.2.1

            Yes, I know the subject very well, BB, and not just academically. Unlike many who claim a knowlege of the Soviet Union’s version of socialism, I have actually been there, seen how it works and can fully understand why so many Russians want it back. (Mainly because they liked it when they had jobs, education and a reasonable standard of living.)
             
             

      • chris73 7.1.2

        Ahem

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction

        Whats your view point on this then

        • Colonial Viper 7.1.2.1

          So you agree that the Socialist Republic was not socialist?

          Red Army Faction – good old terrorist organisation with political values. And?

          • chris73 7.1.2.1.1

            Red Army Faction are/were left wingers but the point is not that all left-wingers are on the edge of becoming murderers but that the violent language and hate-filled imagery they use makes the leap to real violence for some more easy, more likely, for some on the Left.

            I’ve had people on this site tell me to drop dead, that my parents wish I’d never been born etc etc

            Should I be worried that someone from the left may try to do me harm based on the rantings of this site? (Be funny if someone tried but I’m sure you get my point)

            Time for a more responsible discourse from the Left.

            • The Voice of Reason 7.1.2.1.1.1

              Chris, you disingenious tool, the comment about your parents was in response to your wankfest about the joys of eugenics. I suggested that they probably supported it too, now, based on how you turned out.
               
              If you want to be offensive or just plain ignorant, then you are going to get dealt to on this site, but only intellectually. That’s not the same as being dealt to physically, which I recall was your threatening response to my joke about your parents’ disappointment in your failings. I would suggest that anger and intellectual weakness is what drives you. And one sad, twisted Norwegian as well.
               
               

              • chris73

                And?

                You still said something that could be described as “violent language and hate-filled imagery” (and you’re not the only one to tell me to drop dead or similar) but its OK because its only done “intellectually”

                Thats bullshit and you and anyone else who agrees with it is a hypocrite

                • The Voice of Reason

                  “Thats bullshit and you and anyone else who agrees with it is a hypocrite”
                   
                  I believe there’s a Norwegian who agrees with you 100% Chris.

            • Colonial Viper 7.1.2.1.1.2

              chris73 stop living in the past the new wave of right wing extremism is here now, not in the 1970’s with the Red Army Faction.

              Who by the way, killed fewer people over decades than Braevik did in a day.

              • chris73

                Ted Kaczynski- The Unabomber

                He wrote a manifesto that called for a worldwide revolution against the effects of modern society’s “industrial-technological system.”

                Is that better?

                • Blighty

                  calling for a return to a ‘better’ pre-industrial age makes him a reactionary. There’s a lot of that ‘back to the earth’ mythology is naz!sm too. Read the National Front’s manifesto.

                  And I’m still not quite sure of the objective here – find a violent leftie and, therefore, show there’s no connection between the violent rhetoric of the Right and Rightwing violence?

                • Vicky32

                  Ted Kaczynski- The Unabomber

                  Are you trying to claim Kaczynski as a leftist? WTF?

            • bbfloyd 7.1.2.1.1.3

              chris.. i won’t abuse you, or your mother. that would be mocking the afflicted… your interpretation of one tiny piece of the puzzle that was the norm for politics in europe during the cold war is laughable…

              displays of abysmal ignorance are not conducive to successful persuasion.

              • Akldnut

                Well at I bet you never had anyone write that your mother had an abortion in 73 and named him Chris. I wouldn’t tolerate it and I’m sure that no-one here would tolerate it either!

                I’d need to see a link before I believed that.

  8. Red Rosa 8

    Where are the Sensible Sentencing Trust when we need them?

    • rosy 8.1

      Yes. It would be nice to see McVicar screaming at the justice system over this 10-month sentence and the message it gives about protecting people who are just doing their job.

  9. Rich 9

    One would hope that we have sufficient control over explosives and the like that nutters like this can’t make the step from fantasy to reality.

    It’s a worry that a certain right wing blogger and convicted criminal still apparently has a gun license, though. I suspect there’s a big dual standard and righties get cut a dangerous amount of slack by sympathetic cops.

  10. weka 10

    has resulted in just 10 months home detention (not exactly severe punishment for a supposed invalid).
     

    Again with the disability bashing. What does that comment even mean? Leaving aside that you are in no position to make judgements about the medical status of someone (or if you are then make that explicit), it’s just bizarre that you would think that any invalid would have no real problem with 10 months of home detention. Although I guess we all that invalids don’t have a life and just lay around all day at home so what’s the dif, eh?
     
    Seriously, I know TS isn’t responsible as a whole for individual posts, but TS needs to get it’s shit together on disability issues.

    [fair cop. Hasty writing. A clumsy attempt to twist the knife on Thomas. Not a slight on disabled. Edited ASAP after it went up. Sorry. Eddie]

    • weka 10.1

      Thanks Eddie 🙂 (btw, it was a slight on the disabled despite your best intentions. Glad you fixed it).

  11. weka 11

    That ACC forum thread is a weird read. ACC as a socialist organisation? I always found them to be quite facist myself.

  12. Jeremy Harris 12

    Ha ha, you can always count on The Standard to use a tradegy to push the agenda.

    As a right-winger (or as I’m known here The Spawn of Satan) I obviously spend more time reading right-wing blogs, and apart from a few nutters, Brevik has roundly been condemned as the murderer and terrorist he is.

    Of course that doesn’t stop this site pulling a few of the comments from some of those on the right who have lost a full grasp on reality and attempt to paint all right-wingers as violent, unhinged, murderous lunatics – of course with a few begruding comments saying that this is of course not the case. It’s so easy to do and could so easily be applied by using comments from lefties who have left the land of reality from across the blogoshpere.

    Pathetic and it just shows how this blog is not to be taken seriously.

    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      Ha ha, you can always count on The Standard to use a tradegy to push the agenda.

      That’s usually because real life events demonstrate the points of the Left extremely well.

      attempt to paint all right-wingers as violent, unhinged, murderous lunatics

      No, although Right Wing authoritarians seem to feel that it is their right to punish, harrass, victimise and intimidate people and groups that they think are beneath them, or whom they see as a threat to a conservative order of society.

      unhinged

      Breivak seems to have been extreme calm, rational and calculating. Nothing unhinged there.

    • wtl 12.2

      attempt to paint all right-wingers as violent, unhinged, murderous lunatics

      I have not seen anything of the sort. All I have seen are posts and comments arguing that SOME right-wingers like to use violent rhetoric (e.g. calling for ‘crusades’ to eliminate those they don’t like), and that this rhetoric is much more common among right-wingers than left-wingers. And the argument is being made that it is our collective responsibility to reduce or eliminate such rhetoric, as some individuals may actually be influenced by it enough to put it into action.

      But the response from most right-wingers is not that these are fair points, but instead some whinging about being treated a bit rudely on this site (e.g. being insulted on some occasions) and/or mischaracterising the arguments (as you have done).

      • wtl 12.2.1

        Furthermore, there is this seemingly deliberate refusal to acknowledge from the right wing commenters on this site that the attacks were politically motivated and targeted political active left-wingers.

        How would you feel if there was a very recent real world example of people similar to yourself being murdered simple because of your political views? And that the perpetrator used the same kind of language that is common among certain political blogs in attacking their opponents, and cited their arguments in support of what he was doing?

        In other words, try putting yourself in the shoes of the other side for once. If it was similar attack targetting your side, I myself would not be making comments such as yours on right wing blogs.

        • Colonial Viper 12.2.1.1

          Typical Right Wing personality

          – the lives of people who matter, matter more than the lives of the others.

          That’s why the US can cry about three dead marines in Iraq; a thousand civilians wrongly bombed to death by allied forces – *shrug*

  13. battleheed 13

    What a great society we live in that left wingers can make silly statements like this to wind up the righties, and the righties don’t react because it’s so silly.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.1

      You’re here and reacting aren’t you?

      • lprent 13.1.1

        He isn’t sure?

      • battleheed 13.1.2

        Lots of left wing extremist groups like to use violence too but don’t tell eddie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism#Organizations

        • Colonial Viper 13.1.2.1

          Sorry mate you must not be up with the play, dozens of Labour Party members were just slaughtered for real, just now.

          We’re not comparing football teams here.

          Europe has learnt that there is an emerging highly violent Right Wing undercurrent against Left politics, a brutal cold one, which must now be faced up to and dealt with.

          • battleheed 13.1.2.1.1

            The red brigades weren’t football teams, nor was shining path, get up with the play col vip I know you need a cause right now but I don’t think saying only extremists of one side are violent is gonna wash aye.

            • The Voice of Reason 13.1.2.1.1.1

              “weren’t” “nor was”
               
              Both words suggest you know those two organisations are long gone. Care to drag yourself into the 21st century?

              • jackal

                battleheed’s argument look’s a bit like the Oswald Bastable’s Rant where he attributes Fidel Castro amongst others to killing millions in comparison to Anders Breivik’s crimes. How batshit crazy can you get?

        • Draco T Bastard 13.1.2.2

          Yes, there’s a few left-wing extremists groups – 16 around the world according to that page. Nowhere near as many as there are right-wing. This page lists 15 such extremist right-wing groups in the US alone and that’s not all of them there either.

  14. Colonial Viper 14

    (why do the rich always want to get rich, and quick, even if it means trying to rip off a ‘socialist’ institution they hate?).

    indeed, they’re often not interested in creating new jobs, enterprises or industries. It is far faster and lower risk to asset strip and break down a country or an organisation for parts for sale than to nation build over generations.

    If the uber-wealthy are indeed supposed to be “job creators” (a classic right wing meme) then they are doing a piss poor job of it.

    Time for a more responsible discourse from the Right.

    Actually I think it’s time to make the general public see what the discourse of the Right actually is.

    They won’t change their discourse simply because it is fitting for their personality and you can’t change a person’s personality.

  15. Terry 15

    I am glad to know that right wingers are troubling themselves to read these columns! Witness how disturbed the columns make them! I am going to be critical of rightists, though I confess that I am obliged to generalise, sometimes unfairly (I am apolitical).
    The Right Wing (as with Republicans in America) is seriously lacking in heart, or compassion, for their fellow human beings – such as those in need of welfare, the sick and invalids, the poor
    (including the elderly) and so on. We unfortunately will have to put up with the fact that such Rightists exist in society and will be for ever with us. Such is the nature of humanity.
    The chief ambition of rightists is to make money and then still more money (greed), they are thorough materialists who despise the “down-and-outs” (Keys “underclasses”). Because, at the moment, the Tories are favoured this by no means that they are “better”. All it proves is that so many people possess the miserable qualities just outlined. I suppose that one word covers it and that is “selfishness” (or, if you prefer, engrossed by self-interest).

    • queenstfarmer 15.1

      I am apolitical

      Claiming to be “apolitical” is just as much a political belief system / ideology as any other, just like atheism (e.g. me) is just as much a belief set as any organised religion.

      • Colonial Viper 15.1.1

        Make a point. You are a human and humans run on beliefs. Tell us something we don’t know please.

    • Jeremy Harris 15.2

      I am glad to know that right wingers are troubling themselves to read these columns!

      The only time I stop by these days is when someone comments on other blogs (even NRT and the other leftie blogs from time to time) that you really must go over to The Standard and see the depths some disgraceful post or comment has reached from the rank and file.

      Like when the ChCh Earthquake happened, the more sane of us from the blogoshpere are pretty shocked at the poster’s ability to take a tradegy and paint it as a demonstration of how Socialism is the answer to all of life’s problems, no respect for the dead (in this case Socialists) just petty political point scoring.

      I come to laugh but just end up being throughly disgusted.

      • mik e 15.2.1

        The right complaining about our blogsThey don,t get groveling agreement ,they are aloud to say what they like. as opposed to their blogs which censor just about every thing they disagree with !But the main reason is to undermine the lefts moral by a campaign of misinformation and baiting.their criticisms are very well constructed .But when the facts are exposed they seem to give up and take the same position on the next issue.Try any decent argument old the right blogs and they just shut you down

        • tsmithfield 15.2.1.1

          According to the article I cited some of these groups have been involved in planting bombs. The fact they may not have killed anyone (yet) is probably a result of good luck rather than good management.

      • Colonial Viper 15.2.2

        Jeremy Harris is trying to teach us about respect. STFU mate.

        Like when the ChCh Earthquake happened, the more sane of us from the blogoshpere are pretty shocked at the poster’s ability to take a tradegy and paint it as a demonstration of how Socialism is the answer to all of life’s problems

        Did you notice how the state had to do every fucking thing in Christchurch?

        And now it has to insure Christchurch because the private sector won’t? Fair weather friends, the private sector ones you believe in.

        • Blue 15.2.2.1

          “Did you notice how the state had to do every fucking thing in Christchurch?” Of course, would you have it that they didn’t do anything, you moron? I can imagine your pants wetting gene getting warmed up thinking about it. Respect is a construct you have never had it seems. Girly your emotional instability problems are the stuff of legend.

          • Colonial Viper 15.2.2.1.1

            Well since I’m from the Left I clearly agree that the State should step up and take on its responsibilities to help the people; displacing the private sector if it is needed.

            Girly your emotional instability problems are the stuff of legend.

            lolz mate what are you, 14 again?

            Respect is a construct you have never had it seems.

            Respect your enemies, I understand that well.

        • Jeremy Harris 15.2.2.2

          Jeremy Harris is trying to teach us about respect. STFU mate.

          There was a time CV when you were a reasonable individual, who seeked to debate issues. These days you have approached the level of the nutcases who think “Bush did 9/11”. I doubt there is any social evil you don’t blame the “rich” and the “right” for – or can’t easily be convinced is their fault.

          Your descent into a rabid conspiracy theorist has been sad to watch but at least I can dismiss your ramblings these days, you used to be worthy of researched response.

          • bbfloyd 15.2.2.2.1

            yee haa! jeremy’s having a meltdown….. smells a bit, but the screaming and crying can tug your heartstrings for a while, ’till you get the earmuffs on anyway.

          • Colonial Viper 15.2.2.2.2

            There was a time CV when you were a reasonable individual

            The world progresses along the backs of unreasonable individuals. You know that right?

            These days you have approached the level of the nutcases who think “Bush did 9/11″.

            But I haven’t hit that level yet, according to your estimation? That is actually true since I don’t believe that Bush has the intrinsic capability to plan a pissup in a brewery.

            Your descent into a rabid conspiracy theorist has been sad to watch but at least I can dismiss your ramblings these days, you used to be worthy of researched response.

            Could you do me just one more favour? Research for me what the air burn temperature of av gas is…and what the melting point of structural steel is.

            • grumpy czeching in 15.2.2.2.2.1

              Hi CV, Just a note; “air burn temperature” supposes no draught. In the twin towers case, the height of the buildings and the substantial draught caused by the damage means air burn temp. goes out the window (so to speak).

              By the way, here in Jesenik, they are wondering where summer went, had a video conference today with a company in Spain – also no summer. Just as well you guys changed the name from “Global Warming” eh?

            • grumpy czeching in 15.2.2.2.2.2

              Hi CV, Air Burn temp. supposes no draught. In the twin towers case, due to height and builing damage there was a huge draught so Air Burn Temp. goes out the window (so to speak).

              Anyway, here in Jesenik, they are wondering where the summer (and tourists) went. Had a video conference today with a firm in Spain – same there.

              Just as well the name got changed from “Global Warming”, eh?

              • freedom

                grumpy czeching in
                you are aware that members of the 911 Commission have publicly stated that the Official 911 report does not tell the full story. Surely with your knowledge on 911 you are aware that the President would not testify before them unless accompanied by Cheney and all recording and transcribing of his testimony was NOT RECORDED. You are no doubt disturbed then by the fact many high ranking US government employees and a number of Senators and Congressmen have not only retracted early statements but have actually begun to voice support for the Families of the victims in their call for a new investigation.

                In a rational mind, this information alone should raise enough questions. If the Official 911 Commission Report is taken as the truth, then the vast mass of data proves very little that occured on that day can be explained by our current understanding of Physics.

                Your pathetic reasoning that some holes in a building will increase the temperature enough to melt steel would be amusing if its conclusion was not so disturbingly ignorant. A lot more occured on that day than some planes hitting a couple of buildings resulting in some fires. By the way, how do some holes in the top of a building explain the total and complete destruction of a fifty to sixty tonne piece of engineering machinary in the sub basement of the WTC which occured before the first plane hit. Please do tell.

                • grumpy czeching in

                  Fucked if I know, I was just commenting on CV’s comment on air burn temperature.

                  I’m all for a good conspiracy and can’t wait until Wishart’s book comes out.

              • Colonial Viper

                Hi CV, Air Burn temp. supposes no draught. In the twin towers case, due to height and builing damage there was a huge draught so Air Burn Temp. goes out the window (so to speak).

                A salient point.

                However the deep red colour of the flames and the smokiness suggested that the fires were still oxygen starved overall, so air burn temp may still be relevant.

                I note that av gas still burns pretty cool in a 100% oxygen atmosphere though 🙂

      • wtl 15.2.3

        Like when the ChCh Earthquake happened, the more sane of us from the blogoshpere are pretty shocked at the poster’s ability to take a tradegy and paint it as a demonstration of how Socialism is the answer to all of life’s problems

        The problem is you are seeing people engaging in ‘political point scoring’ when their motivation is simply to improve things for the future. The posters’ genuinely believe that improving/maintaning the public sector is important in allowing us to respond efficiently to natural disasters, thereby saving more lives in the future. You obviously disagree with their points, but you could at least acknowledge that their intentions are good. Instead, it seems that you have already made your mind up about people on the left, and therefore see whatever they do as wrong.

      • Vicky32 15.2.4

        I come to laugh but just end up being throughly disgusted.

        Off you go then, no one’s keeping you here! (Or are they?)

      • clandestino 15.2.5

        What a joke…

        David Farrar the other day wrote: “I guess in the end, I should look on it like I did the Iran-Iraq war – you just want it to go on for ever, with maximum causalities.”

        This exemplifies the mindset of many on the right. Their views expressed in a casual callousness. The posts here never come close to this but, unfortunately, the above is fairly normal on rightist blogs.

  16. Bill 16

    ACC’s impersonal bureaucracy driving someone to distraction?

    Where does the problem lie here? ACC culture or the aggrieved individual?

    What if the person had been driven to the the same extent of distraction, said the same things but committed suicide?

    This post is wrong headed imo.

    • Blighty 16.1

      This isn’t about the flaws of ACC.

      The guy planned to blow up as many ACC workers as he could.

      Come on, you don’t believe that’s justified, Bill.

      • Bill 16.1.1

        “Come on, you don’t believe that’s justified, Bill.”

        Correct.

        And I don’t think it’s justified to equate a person who feels he was directly done over by a government department and who apparently spun out as a result to Breivik, who had a whole political philosophy based around nostalgia, conspiracy and supremacy married to an odd elevation of certain historical events/conflicts informing his actions.

        • Blighty 16.1.1.1

          you should read what Thomas wrote on ACC Forums. Long screeds about dismantling socialism and communism.

          • Bill 16.1.1.1.1

            I read some of it. Like I said on ‘The Violent Right’ thread, such expressions of sentiment…misguided and wrongheaded as they are…are reasonably commonplace.

            Do you find it unthinkable that just plain frustration with ACC (ie no accompanying ‘political’ off-loading) could have led the guy to contemplate the same actions? I don’t.

  17. randal 17

    Drop down into the proletariat and even above and there are plenty of nutters with weitrd ideas of their own and willing and ready to kill if they could only get away with it.
    Insanity is a probability exercise and we are no different.
    Self will run riot it is called and our schools with their emphasis on post modernistic axioms such as only your won truths count are hot beds of numbskullism and boneheads.

  18. Mac1 18

    I have a brother who works for ACC. I know other people as well who do the same.

    Two things need to be considered, reading the thread so far. One is that thoughtless (and misspelled, weka) comments can be damn hurtful about ordinary working folk, and the second is that the open debate that we have about these events and the type of thinking that leads to them is very important.

    We must not give permission to these perpetrators by our silence which could well lead to their conclusion that the majority agree with their sick and warped views.

    We must guard against the deep threat to our democracy by allowing the anti-democratic and crazy personalities to think their views are anything but that.

    As we get into election mode, and the crazies come out (us former wanna-be pollies included ;-)), I fear for the political violence that is potentially there. It stifles debate, stops good people coming forward and introduces a component of fear that just should not be there.

    I would include the denigrating comments about people who want to enter politics, even in a bantering way as I have done parenthetically above. Accusing people, for example, of being corrupt or potentially corrupt just because they want to serve in that capacity is a case in point. Adages such as “Don’t vote. It only encourages them” is also an anti-democratic message with its casual denigration and its discouragement which can only serve non-democratic forces.

    Alan Thomas’ actions and threats to ordinary folks, the events in Norway, the threats and discouraging comments of people wanting to stand for political office, or in office, are all in their various degrees serving the same purpose.

    We must all stand up and speak against this again deepening trend. We’ve seen it before and must learn from our history and not allow it to take root.

    • weka 18.1

      One is that thoughtless (and misspelled, weka) comments can be damn hurtful about ordinary working folk,
       

      I’m not sure what the issue is exactly Mac. Is it that I used the word fascist (it was a typo not a mispellling, as if that matters)? Or is it that I have a serious criticism of ACC? If anyone works at ACC and isn’t aware of the major problems there are with the way that ACC operates, then my thoughtlessness or otherwise is irrelevant. If they are aware of the problems at ACC then they have my sincere sympathies unless they support the way that ACC operates.

      • Mac1 18.1.1

        Weka, the problem is with this sentence. “I always found them to be quite facist myself.”

        Firstly, the word ‘fascist’ has a definite meaning within a political/historical context. Did you mean ACC was fascist in that sense? Google Wikipedia on the subject.

        Or, did you mean it in a general perjorative sense? In that case it is meaningless and doesn’t add to the debate.

        The word fascist is a word of great distaste to a lot of people, and causes great offence. Linkage of ACC and fascism in a thread in which an unstable person of far right wing sympathies has been convicted of assembling literature on the manufacture of bombs in order to bomb offices of ACC is offensive.

        Secondly, your use of the word ‘always’ indicated a generalisation which I would designate as rash and unsubstantiated.

        Thirdly, I have often found that misspelling indicates an inattention to detail which may indicate also an inattention to intellectual process.

        Those are my problems with your statement.

        You then in your own defence state- “If anyone works at ACC and isn’t aware of the major problems there are with the way that ACC operates, then my thoughtlessness or otherwise is irrelevant.” My response is that you called ACC a fascist organisation and that is very relevant to a person who works at ACC should they have read your comment or have it repeated to them by another who read your comment.

        The whole tenor of my earlier comment is that we must challenge and not allow loose thinking to develop into Thomas type thinking and action.

        Thanks for the opportunity to practise what I have preached.

        • clandestino 18.1.1.1

          “Google Wikipedia”!!!

          Classic! Stealing that one!

        • weka 18.1.1.2

          Hi Mac, thank-you for your thoughtful reply.
           
          I was using fascist in neither its strict political/historial sense, nor its perjorative sense. I meant it in its general usage as term to describe authoritarianism (in this case institutionalised rather than as the doctrine of a movement). That’s in several dictionaries I’ve just looked up. 
           
          I take your points about language usage and accept that I am stretching the definition a bit. But of the three big problem govt depts we have (ACC, WINZ, IRD), ACC has its own special brand of problem. Whereas WINZ engages in lots of fairly despicable behaviour, it’s main issue is one of incompetence. I’m not talking about individual staff here (although obviously there are problems with some staff too), I’m talking about the system. Likewise with ACC, I’m not saying that the people that work there are all fascists, but that the organisation itself operates in a ways that often deny their clients automony, sovereignty and humanity.
           
          My use of the word ‘always’ obviously refers to my own experience (as stated) rather than ACC as a whole. I can confirm that my own personal experience does equate to ACC ‘always’ having behaved in certain soul destroying ways with me (although to be fair, the second time it was more an issue of incompetence and the mind fuck that goes with denying funding to someone at the same time as wasting funding, so I’m not sure I would call them fascist in that instance. There were overtones of repressiveness in the way they related with me though).
           
          When I think about other people I know who have been ACC clients, I’m really struggling to think of one person who had a good experience. Of the ones I can remember in any detail, I would have to say you are right, I couldn’t say for certain that I thought the actions of the dept were fascist. But I do know that they systematically operate in ways that undermine people’s self determination, and I believe that the policies that enable that are deliberate. Maybe fascist is a lazy expression, I’d be interested in some other options (that don’t involve me being as long winded as I am here).
           
          I’m still not following your point about ACC staff. Is it solely that some people will feel hurt by the word ‘fascist’ to describe their employer? Or is it that I am critising their employer in general? eg is it ok if instead I say that ACC is an organisation that routinely operates in an authoritarian and repressive manner to the great cost of many of its clients?
           
           
          btw, you may be interested to know that I called some people out the other day on the Standard for calling people Nazis. I suggested fascist was ok whereas Nazi wasn’t – to me Nazi is a very specific thing historically and linguistically and I don’t think it should be used as a generic. However I will have to think now about to what extent that is true if I am ok with using the word fascist generically (although it is already in common usage as such).

  19. Afewknowthetruth 19

    It is difficult to improve on Derrick Jensen’s Premises of ‘End Game’.

    Premise Four: Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy. Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized. Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims.

    Premise Five: The property of those higher on the hierarchy is more valuable than the lives of those below. It is acceptable for those above to increase the amount of property they control—in everyday language, to make money—by destroying or taking the lives of those below. This is called production. If those below damage the property of those above, those above may kill or otherwise destroy the lives of those below. This is called justice.

    Premise Six: Civilization is not redeemable. This culture will not undergo any sort of voluntary transformation to a sane and sustainable way of living. If we do not put a halt to it, civilization will continue to immiserate the vast majority of humans and to degrade the planet until it (civilization, and probably the planet) collapses. The effects of this degradation will continue to harm humans and nonhumans for a very long time.

    Premise Nine: Although there will clearly some day be far fewer humans than there are at present, there are many ways this reduction in population could occur (or be achieved, depending on the passivity or activity with which we choose to approach this transformation). Some of these ways would be characterized by extreme violence and privation: nuclear armageddon, for example, would reduce both population and consumption, yet do so horrifically; the same would be true for a continuation of overshoot, followed by crash. Other ways could be characterized by less violence. Given the current levels of violence by this culture against both humans and the natural world, however, it’s not possible to speak of reductions in population and consumption that do not involve violence and privation, not because the reductions themselves would necessarily involve violence, but because violence and privation have become the default. Yet some ways of reducing population and consumption, while still violent, would consist of decreasing the current levels of violence required, and caused by, the (often forced) movement of resources from the poor to the rich, and would of course be marked by a reduction in current violence against the natural world. Personally and collectively we may be able to both reduce the amount and soften the character of violence that occurs during this ongoing and perhaps longterm shift. Or we may not. But this much is certain: if we do not approach it actively—if we do not talk about our predicament and what we are going to do about it—the violence will almost undoubtedly be far more severe, the privation more extreme.

    Premise Ten: The culture as a whole and most of its members are insane. The culture is driven by a death urge, an urge to destroy life.

    • Colonial Viper 19.1

      Jensen is walking the path to self justified eco-violence.

    • ropata 19.2

      Rather than retreating to a bunker and stocking up on cat food, a more constructive approach is to engage society and work to improve life on this planet.

      Don’t give up.

  20. The political Right have often used violence against their own citizens.
    1921 general strike , the South African Rugby tour with the Red Squad
    Dont forget the Waikato Farmers (Massey’s Cossacks),with their batons used against workers . Then there was National PM Sidney Holland UK’s answer to Mosley !.The list is endless.
    Nothing has been learnt from these events ,the talk-back shows are mainly full of racist comments, usually starting with “I’m not a racist ,but! ” .
    It’s all rather sad.

    • Colonial Viper 20.1

      Massey’s Cossacks!!!

      Ha…bet they taught actual NZ history to NZ kids these days. We’d have a lot more Lefties…

      Hey that’s an idea isn’t it.

    • uke 20.2

      A recent example of a (presumably) right-wing terrorist attack in NZ was the March 1984 bombing of the Trades Hall in Wellington – which housed the offices of various trade unions – in which the caretaker, Ernie Abbott, was killed.
       
      Anti-left terrorism definitely has happened here.

  21. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 21

    “Bomber” Bradbury and I are both appalled about “the violent language of the NZ Right”.

  22. Red Rosa 22

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/07/glenn-beck-hits-a-new-low-compares-norway-victims-to-hitler-youth.html

    No wonder the US is in such a mess. Get set to see these lines run by the NZ Right….or maybe they are already onto it?

  23. Wicket 23

    I had the misfortune to deal with Alan Thomas as an Immigration Officer in the early 2000’s when according to him, he was *not* an Immigration Consultant. Thats complete and utter bollux. His defacto Chinese wife was removed from NZ as she was not on a valid permit (excellent business practise for an Immigration consultant don’t you think) Alan Thomas has to be one of the most obnoxious, dishonest people I have ever had the opportunity to deal with. I have no issue with calling him an out and out liar, unneccessarily agressive, he attempted to threaten staff (though being rather diminutive that was something of a joke) and when he didn’t get what he wanted, no matter how many times he rephrased the same damned question, he would stomp his feet and start yelling. It annoys me more than you could possibly even imagine that we’ve been funding this loser weasel’s lifestyle for far longer than was neccessary. In the times I had met him, there was no problem with either of his hands and through the threats of releasing his little taped conversations, well, that never happened. I would be interested if he could actually produce any of what he threatened in term of his recorded conversations. He is not as savvy as he would like others to think and damages the claims of those with genuine issues, ACC or otherwise. This latest debacle of his is just indicative of how many nuts are really loose inside that grotty little head of his and I think it’s something of a shame that he only got Home D….

    As I said, one of the single most obnoxious and untrustworthy (had a history of submitting fraudulent documents on behalf of his Immigration clients) little weasels I have ever had the misfortune to deal with. Glad he’s getting the bums rush finally….

    • weka 23.1

      How do you know there was nothing wrong with his hands, and what makes you think you are qualified to assess his disability?
       
       
       

  24. Craig Glen Eden 24

    I liked the handle Oleolebiscuitbarrell it always gave me a chuckle, and is a shit load more creative than Craig Glen Eden , just saying.

  25. tsmithfield 25

    Hmmm… somewhat amused at the focus on “right wing” terrorists, when in fact they usually refer to people from a nationalistic persuasion. There isn’t any reason that people with nationalistic views necessarily should also be right wing.

    Also, perhaps we should also be discussing the antics of “left wing” terrorists.

    • felix 25.1

      As opposed to discussing the right-wing extremist who just murdered an island full of young labour party members.

      Good idea.

      • tsmithfield 25.1.1

        I don’t think fitting a “political” label actually helps the discussion. As I have shown above, there are nutters at both extremes of the spectrum. It would be more helpful discussing what we can do to protect society from the nutters.

        • felix 25.1.1.1

          As long as we don’t talk about the right-wing nutter who just murdered the next generation of Norway’s political left.

          Righto.

          • tsmithfield 25.1.1.1.1

            Grow up. I have no problem discussing this issue. However, it is fairly tacky to try and score political points out of this situation by pushing the “right wing” label when the guy was a complete nut-job, and similar nut-jobs from whatever political leaning are equally dangerous.

            • felix 25.1.1.1.1.1

              Yeah you have no problem discussing the political mass murder of a bunch of people who were killed for their political beliefs by a man who killed them because he opposes their politics and their political party…

              …just as long as we leave the politics out of it.

        • rosy 25.1.1.2

          I don’t know how you associate animal rights activists and eco-terrorists with the left. They have more in common with anarchists – in their “leaderless resistance” models of activism, IMO – not on the the left-right continuum at all. Extreme animal rights also has animals ahead of people and that is fundamentally different from the left-leaning organisations.

          I’d like to see a bit of research about what political affiliations they have. I concede that environmental activists that have social justice as a goal are likely to be left-leaning as that is the basic tenets of left-wing thinking. Environmental activists seem more intent of property damage than shooting up a bunch of right-wingers, don’t you think?

          • tsmithfield 25.1.1.2.1

            But if their voting preferences were surveyed, I would expect that members of these groups would tend to be left-leaning rather than right-leaning in their voting tendencies. So, applying the same loose standards in referring to deranged nationalists as “right-wing”, I think it is quite OK to refer to eco-terrorists as “left-wing”.

            Anyway, my main point was to show that this labelling of individuals as “left-wing”, or :”right wing” is stupid when it comes to such an awful situation. We need to focus efforts on identifying these types of individuals and stopping them before they can cause harm.

            • rosy 25.1.1.2.1.1

              At a guess they don’t vote. And yep, we need to focus on identifying these individuals. Extreme right-wing organisations seem a good place to start, yeah? And then we need to see what encourages them. The Norwegian used mainstream political thought to justify his actions. distortions of places, of people and of cultures whip this stuff.

              Racism is often justified as an aberrant reaction to understandable provocation; the focus on “multiculturalism” in the aftermath of the Oslo tragedy draws attention to contemporary racism’s most elastic alibi. The “failure of multiculturalism” is an article of faith in European politics and, like all acts of faith, it depends on the acceptance of an underlying mystery. Despite the denunciations of this “failed experiment”, there has never been a time in Europe where multiculturalism was the dominant ideology. As Ralph Grillo has argued, state practices, in the few countries that have adopted them, are characterised by a “weak” patchwork of policy initiatives and aspirational rhetoric. Yet critics have consistently assumed the damaging existence of a coherent “strong” form, which is always “unbridled”.

              And some of those writers, like Bruce Bawer in the Wall St journal are scrambling to justify and excuse themselves and their ideas for popping up in the murderer’s manifesto. And Glenn Beck – got his diatribes out on the most popular TV channel in the U.S. – Fox, only to be deserted when the advertisers, not the listeners, complained. He is still has to account for his vomit that preceded Gabrielle Gifford’s shooting.

    • mik e 25.2

      tsmith your myth looking at your own site ecco terrorists they are not connected to any political side and they have damaged property intimidated people released a few pussy cats but I couldn,t find any information on them killing any body. But when I looked at all the other organizations on the web site you provided.They were all far right extremist racist Christian gun toting militarists they had all been involved in murder and mayhem.

      • Ianupnorth 25.2.1

        Indeed – and compare another group generally found on the right, the religious anti-abortion crowd. They blow up clinics and doctors, very pacifist!
         
        Oh, but that’s OK because they are conservative?
         

        • Colonial Viper 25.2.1.1

          Actually its because the extreme right wing personality type is able to highly compartmentalise different ideologies in different situations.

          They do not self-reflect upon their beliefs to see if they make any kind of consistent, integrative, wider sense. An authoritative source says what is proper and what must be done, and few questions are seriously asked.

          This leads to actions and goals reminiscent of “we had to destroy the village to save it”, or as you suggested, we can be pro-life by taking life.

  26. Colonial Viper 26

    Just heard it said on National Radio that Braevik was listening to the Lord of the Rings sound track as he was killing those young people.

    A movie featuring race wars of good against evil. Apparently he found the music inspirational and motivational.

    And that he claimed to have had help from other groups in planning the attacks.

    • Lanthanide 26.1

      Those soundtracks were lame.

    • Ianupnorth 26.2

      I hope he got permission from Peter Jackson – he’ll probably be wanting a royalty cheque and will need Key to go to Warners to collect it.

      • Colonial Viper 26.2.1

        Classic comment. Perhaps Key could say something about this at a press conference in the White House. The money quote would go:

        “This is an abhorrent tragedy, and we grieve for the loss suffered by our Norwegian cousins. However, some positives can arise from this sad incident. Including sound track royalties to Warner Brothers from the inevitable direct to DVD movie about the shootings.

        A truly fabulous movie shot in beautiful New Zealand countryside, and starring extremely talented New Zealand actors performing their best on a world stage. Something like this demonstrates clearly why New Zealand chooses to do what it does, and so well.”

  27. Wicket 27

    Weka, he was having difficulties with NZIS at the time too – he bought us his medical paperwork for a variety of reasons – came from a specialist directly, so there is no need for my qualification if we have a specialist advising us that there is no issue.

  28. Policy Parrot 28

    Latest:

    Glen Beck compares camp attendees to Hitler Youth.

    Fucking disgusting.

  29. John D 29

    Another blog post using the Oslo massacre to support your political agenda

    It has been a productive week for The Standard’s hand-wringers and turd eaters.

    • McFlock 29.1

      Think about that for a while, did you?
      I hope you wiped down the keyboard when you were done.

    • jackal 29.2

      I’m surprised that you think a post about Anders Breivik is politically inspired John D. The political dimension to what happened was set by the perpetraiter and those who jumped at the chance to blame Muslims.

      Your comment is idiotic, especially considering the authors summation is that there should be a responsible discourse from the Right. Do you think you’re adhering to that request with your turd eating comment John D?

      Clearly the right cannot accept that it’s a RWNJ that committed the crimes in Norway. Neither are they respecting the dead. Glenn Beck recently said and I quote:

      “There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler Youth or whatever. I mean, who does a camp for kids that’s all about politics? Disturbing.”

      I often wonder if people like that are human. I’m glad he’s not a New Zealander. Are you a Kiwi John D? It’s people like you that are causing the mass exodus.

  30. KJT 30

    http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/151774/8_dumbest,_most_insensitive_right-wing_reactions_to_the_norway_shooting?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet

    “In fact, right-wing extremists have already demonstrated their capacity to do harm”,

    http://theglobalrealm.com/2011/02/04/the-food-bubble-how-wall-street-starved-millions-and-got-away-with-it/

    In NZ. Putting thousands out of work and then cutting their welfare. Or, only slightly more extremist. The trades hall bomber.

    • Ianupnorth 30.1

      Closing facilities where you could build trains and then giving the contracts to friends and acquaintances (The Pansy Wong and Jenny Shipley show)…
       

      • Colonial Viper 30.1.1

        And the bloody Tories are up to the very same antics in the UK.

        Its like they are all reading from the same hymn sheet (they are).

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/05/bombardier-job-losses-train-wreck

        Rather than award the £1.4bn Thameslink contract to Bombardier, a firm that would do more of the value-added work at its plant in Derby, Philip Hammond and Vince Cable chose to anoint Siemens, which will build the trains in Germany, as their preferred bidder. The result, says Bombardier, is that 1,400 jobs will be lost in Derby – which amounts to nearly half the workforce.

      • prism 30.1.2

        This is getting further off thread I’m sorry.
        @Iamupnorth – There isn’t private money up for grabs if the Hillside government works were going to build railway carriages, or at least add value. End of story.

        I did some googling of nz and road transport –
        June 2011 Transport NZ Summit and Expo – photo id of leading players in our business community. If you hear them, now you can see them. One is of Ken Shirley (rermember him) who is CEO of the …Road Transport Forum New Zealand is the authoritative voice of the road transport industry, advancing the interests of its members and promoting the contribution road transport makes to all New Zealand’s lives.

        And National’s Jenny Shipley’s connection with road transport. Being Chair of a major player like Mainzeal construction would bring haulage of raw materials to the fore for her.
        Just a bit of background:
        June 18 2009 – …Mainzeal Chair Jenny Shipley… said
        “We will explore our strategic direction, with the intention of confirming our role as a leading New Zealand construction company, while exploring broader opportunities to diversify the business in response to emerging investment intentions from the Government and private sector.
        Mainzeal Property and Construction Limited, has operated in New Zealand since 1968 and is one of New Zealand’s largest and most successful property and construction companies specialising in commercial and industrial construction.
        Mainzeal:
        � Successfully puts in place work valued in excess of $400 million per annum and employs some 400+ people throughout the country.
        � Has built a reputation for constructing high quality buildings, on time and at competitive prices.

  31. chearryjeary 31

    Not being adept on political musings I admit to doing a search on the topic after hearing this slaughter being linked to right-wing extremists. I did a search on nationalism and the nazi party. From the wiki article it seems that both the left and right take advantage of nationalism but the more violent authortarian nationalism is linked to the right termed as ultranationalism. Interesting enough alot of comments in political posts fits this description. Also from wiki Hitler was also right-wing who used socialist rhetoric to gain support and increase membership.

  32. Colonial Viper 32

    Cartoon. Reporting of the mass slayings.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon/2011/jul/26/steve-bell-norway-attacks-cartoon

    Yeah Rupert Murdoch News Corp style.

  33. rosy 33

    The cartoon is good…. but a might have been. I think the redtops all lead with the demise of Amy.

  34. oligarkey 34

    John Dee – the right tends toward a philosophy of competition between people, might makes right, hierarchy and oneupmanship (boring, angry dudes with small peckers). It’s a more aggressive philosophy, and it should come as no surprise that aggressive types gravitate toward it. Deal with the facts.

  35. oligarkey 36

    “Also from wiki Hitler was also right-wing who used socialist rhetoric to gain support and increase membership.” … and he enjoyed the support of large banking interests and industrialists, whilst wiping out trade unions. Sounds a lot like the National Party of the last 25 years when you put it all together. Fascinating.

  36. “Growing our own Breivik” is something we are all involved in, left, right and centre. Since the Noregian tragedy much has been said about right wing violence, but violence in New Zealand politics and New Zealand society is not just a right wing problem – ask Trevor Mallard.

    Our political and social revile – we should do something about it.

    • Link whoreing again Pete?
       
      The reason that you attract such a response from others on this site are because you come with these grand statements which are evidence and analysis free.
       
      You also lack the sensitivity to understand how appalled the left are at what happened in Norway and to keep chipping at us and say that violence is a left problem as well is like throwing a lit match on petrol.
       
      You seem to as a matter of faith say that the “middle”, whatever that is, is best and the rest are extremists.
       
      I know I am breaking Goodwin’s law but this will show what a shallow dishonest and stupid thought process this is.
       
      In Nazi Germany the left wing stood up to Hitler and opposed what happened to the Jews.  Trade unionists lost their lives.  No doubt there would have been a German version of Pete George there saying that the nazi’s actions in killing 12 million jews were extreme, but so was the left’s desire that no jews be killed.  Perhaps a reasonable and balanced programme of extermination would result in no more than 6 million Jews being gassed.
       
      See how stupid your comments are?

    • oligarkey 37.2

      When you actually give it a little thought – it is the right that has committed nearly all the political violence in NZ. A unionist was killed, and many badly beaten at the Waihi miners’ strike in 1912 – this happened at the instigation of a right-wing Government. In the 1950s, dozens of unionists were badly beaten at the “waterfront strike” by hired thugs – this time at the instigation of a National Party Government. Then during the Springbok tour of 1981, dozens of protesters, including women, were beaten with clubs, by the police, at the instigation of a National Party Government

      So, can all the right wing trolls quit with the “left is just as bad as the right” when it comes to violence mantra? Clearly, it’s the right of NZ politics that are prone to political violence – often using their crypto-fascist minions in the police as hired thugs. Yes the NZ police is a lagely crypto-fascist organisation. i.e. the officer in charge of beating up protesters during the springbok tour, Ross Meurant, has come out saying that the police have a problem of institutionalised racism and prejudiced targeting of left-wing groups. That this continues to be a problem is evidenced by the fact that the police are targeting peace activist groups, rather than Kyle Chapman and his neo-nazi buddies that run around in the hills of the South Island with semi-automatic weapons, playing war games. So – let’s get it straight here – it’s the right who ALWAYS introduces violence in to NZ political life. Food for thought. .

  37. So uhhh…whats the latest with those bloody maaari terrorists from Te Urewera ?

    Seems like if we’re gonna have homegrown, gun totin’, mass murderin’ terorrists at large, it’ll be nutjobs like this…

    Weapons found at police employee’s home

    A hidden cache of fully and semi-automatic weapons have been found inside plastic mannequins at the home of a police employee.

    The guns were found inside the torso and legs of hollow, uniformed mannequins in a locked room at the man’s Johnsonville house after an anonymous tipoff to Crimestoppers.

    Patrick Bruce Phipps, 44, a technology support engineer at the Royal New Zealand Police College, Porirua, has pleaded not guilty in Wellington District Court to two charges of illegal possession of a Finnish Valmet semi-automatic rifle and a Czechoslovakian VZ58 fully automatic rifle.

    Phipps, a gun and memorabilia collector, said he had never seen them before and had no idea they were there.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5344329/Weapons-found-at-police-employees-home

    …and not delusional, stoner, loudmouth Maori wannabe Guevara’s who can’t even afford guns

  38. Chris a 39

    Right leaning?

    Yes. Mr Thompson was proposing to nail bomb the ACC office because he had come to feel that his levy charges had become untenable and that such a terrorist attAck w the only vaid way to highlight this travesty to the authorities and to encourage them to open the scheme to competition.

    I didn’t see the court records, but, that would be my guess as to his right wing, ACT part inspired motives.

    Can someone confirm?

  39. The Obfuscator 40

    Right leaning?

    Yes. Mr Thompson was proposing to nail bomb the ACC office because he had come to feel that his levy charges had become untenable and that such a terrorist attAck w the only vaid way to highlight this travesty to the authorities and to encourage them to open the scheme to competition.

    I didn’t see the court records, but, that would be my guess as to his right wing, ACT part inspired motives.

    Can someone confirm?

  40. Jenny 41

    There is a thin line between hate speech and violent atrocities like the Utoya Island massacre.

    It is time for US officials to take a stand

    Speak Out, or Get Out!

    Glenn Beck, the leading Right-wing broadcaster and darling of the Tea Party, likens the young Labour Party supporters murdered in Norway to Hitler Youth.

    “Norway shooting: Glenn Beck compares dead teenagers to Hitler youth”

    The Telegraph

    Is this where the present level of mainstream politics in the US is heading?

    What can we do about it, here in NZ and around the world?

    Where do US officials stand?

    This is what every country in the world that hosts a US embassy should be asking.

    Every US ambassador should issue a public statement distancing themselves from Glenn Beck and condemning his views.

    If they refuse, fearing for their career path on offending the powerful and ascendent American right, then the US government should be asked to recall them and replace them.

    Here in New Zealand the US ambassador David Huebner has his own blog here, and makes regular comments on Twitter, here. His last comment was 6 hours ago.

    So far no comment on the events in Norway from David Huebner. Not even a word of comfort or support for those struck down in this right wing terror attack, much less a statement condemning Glen Beck.

  41. Jenny 42


    Hate speech knows no borders

    Before being arrested, mass killer Anders Breivik released a manifesto justifying his killing spree, which quoted heavily from a speech given in New Zealand entitled: “The Perverse Anti-Westernism of the Cultural Elite” by Australian historian Keith Windschuttle.

    Keith Windshcuttle said the quotes used by Breivik were a “truncated version” of his paper. “But it is not inaccurate or misleading”

    “I made everyone of these statements”, he said, “and I still stand by everyone of them.”

    Defending himself, Windschuttle said, it would be a “disturbing accusation” if people thought that he had ever used deliberately provocative language that might have caused Breivik to take up a rifle and shoot unarmed teenagers in cold blood.

  42. Jenny 43

    From Orewa, to Malborough Sounds, to Utoya Island.

    In the age of the internet

    Hate speech knows no borders

    “Mass Killer Anders Breivik’s NZ link”

    Stuff.co.nz

    Mass killer Anders Breivik released a manifesto before launching his killing spree. Brevik’s manifesto justifying his murders quoted heavily from a speech given in New Zealand entitled: “The Perverse Anti-Westernism of the Cultural Elite” by Australian historian Keith Windschuttle.

    The speech was delivered at the Summer Sounds Symposium, at Punga Cove in the Marlborough Sounds, on February 11, 2006.

    The session was chaired by political commentator Matthew Hooton, who told NZPA he didn’t recall details of the paper, but noted that “the Summer Sounds symposiums became a bit too right wing for my taste”.

    Keith Windschuttle told Radio New Zealand he had re-read the speech he delivered at the Summer Sounds Symposium, to see if he could be held in any responsible or if his words were deliberately provocative.

    “But the idea that anything I have written would provoke murder is just insane,” he said.

    “I am debating issues about multiculturalism, the benefits of western societies versus other societies and about western civilization.”

    Windschuttle said the quotes used by Breivik were a “truncated version” of his paper. “But it is not inaccurate or misleading”

    “I made everyone of these statements”, Windschuttle said, “and I still stand by everyone of them.”

    Defending himself, Windschuttle said, it would be a “disturbing accusation” if people thought that he had ever used deliberately provocative language that might have caused Breivik to take up a rifle and shoot unarmed teenagers in cold blood.

    So what brought Windschuttle to New Zealand to give his speech on the superiority of Western Culture?

    What was the political climate at the time?

    Don Brash as leader of the National opposition in attempt to lift his polling, was courting the redneck vote. Accentuating the superiority of his British ancestry in his second intolerant Orewa speech, Brash attacked both Maori and the welfare state. Accusing Maori of being overly reliant on welfare.

    Changing the word Maori to immigrant – the two of the pet hates of Anders Breivik, racial minorities and social welfare, causes which he identified the Norwegian Labour Party as upholding and promoting. That someone like Anders Breivik could identify his extremist right wing views in an Australian writer which closely parallelled those of a New Zealand politician should be a warning.

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  • Tighter firearms law to further improve safety
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  • New TVNZ chair & directors confirmed
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  • Hutt Road cycle path officially opened
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  • Announcement of new Ambassador to Russia
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  • Outstanding public service recognised
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  • NZ-China FTA upgrade negotiations conclude
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  • New Zealand gifts White Horse to Nikko Toshogu Shrine in Japan
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  • High Commissioner to Canada announced
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  • New Retirement Commissioner appointed
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  • New Zealand and Japan commit to greater cooperation in the Pacific
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