He’s not the messiah …

Written By: - Date published: 8:22 am, January 18th, 2022 - 125 comments
Categories: covid-19, human rights, law, law and "order", religion, uncategorized - Tags:

This case almost makes you think there is virtue in the three strikes law.

Because Brian Tamaki has been remanded in custody after repeatedly breaching his bail by attending anti Covid measures protests.  From the Herald:

Brian Tamaki’s bail application has been refused after being arrested at home [yesterday] morning.

The Destiny Church leader appeared at Auckland District Court via audio-visual link.

Tamaki will be remanded in custody to Mt Eden Prison until January 27. He did not make any response as the judge handed down his decision.

Judge Evangelos Thomas said the only information which can be reported from [yesterday]’s bail hearing is the outcome.

Predictably Tamaki is claiming to be a political martyr:

“It is a sad day for the freedom of all New Zealanders when people cannot gather and be heard in opposition to government policy when they believe it to be wrong and contrary to the good of the people,” he said in the statement.

Tamaki said democracy has “taken another hit” and the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act has “lost any impact that those who drafted it dreamt it might have”.

It is tiring that people who have absolutely no idea of the law or of epidemiology should be so loud and strident in their claims concerning these subjects.  Curtailing mass gatherings in the middle of a pandemic is perfectly consistent with Section 5 of the Bill of Rights.  And rather than thinking of Tamaki as a martyr the only description that appears to me to be appropriate is that he is (allegedly) a very naughty boy.

125 comments on “He’s not the messiah … ”

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  1. Puckish Rogue 1
    18 January 2022 at 8:28 am

    I am a supporter of the three strikes law but is breaching bail one of the strikes?

    • mickysavage 1.1
      18 January 2022 at 8:32 am

      There have been reportedly four breaches and my recollection is that each alleged breach involved attending an illegal gathering.

      • Puckish Rogue 1.1.1
        18 January 2022 at 8:42 am

        I have no issues with people breaching bail conditions being remanded in custody.

        I don't think that breaching bail is a strike (I may be wrong though)

        • Chris 1.1.1.1
          18 January 2022 at 9:01 am

          Would you like it to be?

          • Puckish Rogue 1.1.1.1.1
            18 January 2022 at 9:04 am

            Only if the bail breaching is linked to a 3 strike crime.

            For example in this case no (I'm assuming its not) but if the crime was something like domestic abuse then yes

            • mickysavage 1.1.1.1.1.1
              18 January 2022 at 9:18 am

              Three strikes law does not apply. My comment in the post related to the tenor of the law (third strike and you are out) rather than the detail.

    • Nic the NZer 1.2
      18 January 2022 at 8:40 am

      I understand that sentence was both specious and facetious.

    • Tricledrown 1.3
      19 January 2022 at 7:20 pm

      A charlatan and conman should already be on his 3rd strike for running a cult which financially abuses its followers.

  2. Ad 2
    18 January 2022 at 8:40 am

    Brian Tamaki is protesting against vaccination mandates. Thank God someone is.

    Ardern never mentions human rights – she only repeats more and more reasons that government overwhelming force can't ever leave your life.

    Tamaki is fighting against state power like the left used to.

    He is our only civic leader prepared to follow his principles to jail.

    I wish any elected member had the courage to be jailed on this. It would show commitment to stated values.

    I don't agree with his weighting of those principles, and I agree with the Police and judge enforcing the law.

    Act should recruit him ASAP. Good on him I say.

    • Puckish Rogue 2.1
      18 January 2022 at 8:45 am

      I support any and all protests and protesting as long as they're protesting legally.

      • RosieLee 2.1.1
        18 January 2022 at 9:03 am

        And disrupting and disturbing the neighbourhood's peace and quiet, and freedom of movement, in the process?

        • Ad 2.1.1.1
          18 January 2022 at 9:09 am

          Yes. That is the essence of protest.

          Amazing how quick Labour and Green supporters forget this once in power.

          • felix 2.1.1.1.1
            20 January 2022 at 6:34 pm

            Imagine the pushback from the protest movements of the left if national had happened to have been in govt to introduce vaccine mandates and passports etc (as they would have done). But it happened to be labour so they all become bootlickers instead.

            • Anne 2.1.1.1.1.1
              20 January 2022 at 7:33 pm

              National would not have introduced mandates etc. until after the horse had bolted. They are, and always have been, tunnel visioned and prefer to follow rather then lead.

              Sure, there would have been pushback from the left, but because they had not introduced vaccine mandates in time.

              • McFlock …
                20 January 2022 at 7:39 pm

                Hmmm.
                I think Key would have just bojo'd it up.

                But English did have a bit of principle about responsible social expenditure – crap math, but math nonetheless. I suspect that if he could have been persuades that lockdowns would be better for the economy than pestilence walking the streets, he might have made an effort. Might even have been persuades by the mortality projections around BAU, by themselves.

                "If" and "might", though.

                • felix …
                  20 January 2022 at 7:47 pm

                  National might have been a bit lighter and slower on the lockdowns initially but the mandates, passports, social classification and restrictions would be right up their alley. And most of the left would've been screaming blue murder.

                  • weka …
                    20 January 2022 at 7:49 pm

                    pretty sure the opportunity to mandate benefits would have been jumped on by National.

                  • McFlock …
                    20 January 2022 at 7:54 pm

                    lol only for poor people. The rich would be able to jaunt to wherever they want.

                    Also, I suspect they wouldn't have been able to resist the urge to big-brother the apps – validation from a central server (and tracking) on top of the internal consistency validation, logging your scan-ins centrally and permanently rather just on your own phone for a few weeks. That sort of thing.

                    Edit: oh, and no covid payouts to employees, just to employers.

                    • weka …
                      20 January 2022 at 7:57 pm

                      afaik protection of app data is still only policy, not in legislation, so they still might get the chance.

                    • Anne …
                      20 January 2022 at 8:17 pm

                      …they wouldn't have been able to resist the urge to big-brother the apps – validation from a central server (and tracking)… logging your scan-ins centrally and permanently rather just on your own phone for a few weeks. That sort of thing.

                      Now that's more like it. So much for their catch cry of "freedom of choice and movement". Yeah, freedom for them but not the rest of us.

                    • felix …
                      20 January 2022 at 9:27 pm

                      Definitely that last one. With no obligations.

                • Anne …
                  20 January 2022 at 8:03 pm

                  Just seen your comment @ 7:39pm McFlock and I agree about English. He was more old school National.

                  I changed my reference to 'money' just before time ran out. blush

        • Puckish Rogue 2.1.1.2
          18 January 2022 at 9:10 am

          I support any and all protests and protesting as long as they're protesting legally.

          I do not support any and all protests and protesting if they're protesting illegally.

        • Gypsy 2.1.1.3
          20 January 2022 at 10:28 am

          Where were you in 1981?

        • Grantoc 2.1.1.4
          20 January 2022 at 1:31 pm

          Why not, if the protest is genuine (and there may be debate about this). But being disrupted and disturbed and having your peace and quiet and freedom of movement restricted (its debatable as to whether it would significantly restricted) is a small price for protecting much more important rights: the freedom of association and speech.

          • weka 2.1.1.4.1
            20 January 2022 at 7:50 pm

            I have no problem with them protesting. I cannot see any legitimate reason to target kids directly.

            It's still unclear to me what exactly happened. Lots of rumour.

      • Chris 2.1.2
        18 January 2022 at 9:11 am

        So you'd be happy with prosecuting protesters protesting against a law that bans protests?

        • Puckish Rogue 2.1.2.1
          18 January 2022 at 9:13 am

          Do we have currently a law that bans protests?

          • Chris 2.1.2.1.1
            18 January 2022 at 10:09 am

            It's a hypothetical question. I was just interested to know because what I understood as strong acceptance of protest as part and parcel of a healthy democratic society appears to have one caveat: that the protest is legal.

            • Puckish Rogue 2.1.2.1.1.1
              18 January 2022 at 10:45 am

              Civil disobedience is an interesting question.

              I'd have to wait until it actually happens but if I really had to answer then I'd probably say something like banning protests is illegal (or immoral) therefore protesting against banning protests isn't illegal, its a civil duty.

              • Bruce Thorpe …
                18 January 2022 at 9:11 pm

                All this talk about diminishing rights is utterly opposite to the historic facts. Government has always been able to declare quarantine restrictions, and all governments will at some point declare a threatening protest as a disturbance of the peace. All governments have that right, at least are seen that way by the world at large.

                So, what most of these protestors' claims of lost rights are contrary to the facts.

                The anti-vaxers are quite accurately labelled the anti-factsers. We are facing a new wave of religious revolution, calling for a world where facts and rationality must give way to expressions of sentiment and tolerance of every whacky fantasy that comes along.

                A politics without judgement.

            • weka 2.1.2.1.1.2
              20 January 2022 at 7:51 pm

              the UK government is in the process of criminalising protest it doesn't want.

    • aom 2.2
      18 January 2022 at 8:54 am

      Ad – did you miss the fact that both Tamaki's are double-jabbed? Also "….. prepared to follow his principles to jail." Oh yeah? Lets see what happens when his cases come to Court. No doubt his impoverished, tithed congregation will pay for the best legal defences so he can sell out the high-minded principles you ascribe to him then cough up for his fines.

      • Ad 2.2.1
        18 January 2022 at 9:06 am

        The parishioners are free to spend their money as they like.

        Tamaki speaks up for some of the most disempowered people we have – the wilfully unvaccinated.

      • alwyn 2.2.2
        18 January 2022 at 10:33 am

        "No doubt his impoverished, tithed congregation will pay for the best legal defences ".

        Why should he not get the same protection that our Cabinet Ministers get? They get the very best lawyers defending them when they get sued don't they? The difference is of course that it is the taxpayer rather than the congregation who pay, and taxes are very much more that tithing would be.

        The taxpayer cannot opt out of the arrangement either whereas the Tamaki follower can leave the congregation without having to leave the country.

    • Nic the NZer 2.3
      18 January 2022 at 8:57 am

      The tithe payers union might have something to say about ACTs new direction.

    • mickysavage 2.4
      18 January 2022 at 9:54 am

      NZ's response to Covid would suggest that the combination of vaccination roll out, vaccine mandates, MIQ and other health measures are working pretty well.

      Tamaki can protest as much as he likes. But he needs to abide by the various restrictions that have a very important role to play.

      • Ad 2.4.1
        18 January 2022 at 10:05 am

        MoH have done a most average job, and in the background amassed more coercive and procurement power than all departments but the IRD.

        Has anyone other than Tamaki dared to ask Ardern: will we ever get our actual BORA rights back? At 30 infections per day? 20? 10? Never?

        No one else (bar Act) is watching the watchers.

        He's going to grow in influence now.

        • alwyn 2.4.1.1
          18 January 2022 at 10:41 am

          "MoH have done a most average job".

          An average job? I think you flatter them. It is only "average" when compared to the other actions of our Government. It is "average" only in the way that implementation of Kiwibuild was "average".

          By any normal standard it has been terrible.

          As for someone asking whether we will get our BORA rights back. I can only refer anyone asking such a question to that immortal line in the film The Castle.

          "Tell him he's dreaming"

          • Puckish Rogue 2.4.1.1.1
            18 January 2022 at 10:46 am

            Maybe they should bring an expert like Mr Clarke Gayford to improve the MOH, its my understanding hes very up to date with what the MOH is doing.

            • woodart 2.4.1.1.1.1
              18 January 2022 at 11:13 am

              no, they should bring in some keyboard know-alls like yrself . when employers are screaming out for experts, we seem to have plenty on-line offering "expert" advice for free . jog on down to winz and earn some $$$ rather than waste yr expertise here for free.

          • Peter 2.4.1.1.2
            18 January 2022 at 1:06 pm

            By any standard the MOH has done a terrible job?

            Which means I guess if the job had been 'average' we'd have hardly any dead from Covid, covid wouldn't be running untrammelled in the community, everyone would be vaccinated and health services would still be available to most people when they needed it.

            On the other hand I suppose if they'd done a 'brilliant" job, no-one would have died, no-one would have got covid and everything would have carried on as normal in the country including every person needing any medical attention whatsoever getting it on the first day it was found to be needed.

            • Gypsy 2.4.1.1.2.1
              20 January 2022 at 10:40 am

              The results achieved by NZ around Covid are a combination of good luck (geography etc) and authoritarian control. The MoH, or whoever is making the key decisions, have done little better than average around ICU capacity, the vaccine rollout, saliva testing, MIQ, and the overall handling of Delta.

              To add to that, we have a PM who promised their would be no penalty for those who opted out of mandated vaccines, and that we have to let people who have a legal right to live here – such as our own citizens – come home, otherwise you are making them stateless.

        • Patricia Bremner 2.4.1.2
          18 January 2022 at 8:03 pm

          No-one has asked because the answer is obvious. The Pandemic is still raging. Political decisions to say it is waning are delusional opportunism gone mad.

          Scomo is saying tests are available, when clearly they are not. Here Tamaki says freedom is lost.

          Ardern has done no more than most Governments and less curtailment of freedoms than many. Protesters have not been hosed pepper sprayed or even fined in most cases. To make out she is a tyrant you must be putting something in your afternoon tea Ad.

          • Jilly Bee 2.4.1.2.1
            19 January 2022 at 12:47 pm

            Thank you Patricia – I have mentioned before and will say again that TS is becoming harder to read each day it would seem. Some of the regular contributors simply make my brain hurt with their constant negativity – maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy. I have to admit I'm starting to enjoy and even appreciate some of Puckish Rogue's comments.wink

        • lprent 2.4.1.3
          19 January 2022 at 12:40 pm

          I notice that you appear to be avoiding the base issue – does society through the legislation and regulation have an ability to contrain the spread of biological disease. This legislation has been relatively recently updated i n about 2006 and gone through the usual BORA review.

          Basically arguing as you are that the rights of a virus to have endemic rights repurposing over human cells just marks you as a biological fool. So does your apparent inability to understand BORA and its legal constraints.

          • RedLogix 2.4.1.3.1
            19 January 2022 at 1:43 pm

            does society through the legislation and regulation have an ability to contrain the spread of biological disease.

            So my response is – given that we always lived with endemic diseases, and that Omicron looks to be on track to be yet another one added to the list – does this mean the BORA is now forever a dead letter? I doubt you intended this.

            The concern being expressed here is not so much that the state should not act in a crisis, but what happens when the state decides the crisis has given it desirable powers that it would like to endure indefinitely? Where does this take us?

            Or that even if the crisis indisputably ends – there is always a ratchet effect in that the 'temporary' rules are never fully relaxed – things never go back to how they used to be. 9/11 being one proximate example in our lifetimes.

            • aom 2.4.1.3.1.1
              19 January 2022 at 5:22 pm

              Care to put you comments alongside an objective account as to what is happening in Australia at present RedLogic?

            • lprent 2.4.1.3.1.2
              21 January 2022 at 7:56 am

              So my response is – given that we always lived with endemic diseases, and that Omicron looks to be on track to be yet another one added to the list – does this mean the BORA is now forever a dead letter? I doubt you intended this.

              No, just as the framers of BORA never intended it to be the be-all-and-end-all legislation.

              Section 4 explicitly states this

              Other enactments not affected

              • No court shall, in relation to any enactment (whether passed or made before or after the commencement of this Bill of Rights),—

                • (a)hold any provision of the enactment to be impliedly repealed or revoked, or to be in any way invalid or ineffective; or
                • (b)decline to apply any provision of the enactment—

                by reason only that the provision is inconsistent with any provision of this Bill of Rights.

              So when we have a Health Act or legislation that has explicit authorities given to control epidemics and pandemics, then that overrides BORA.

              Section 5 provides the circumstances where BORA applies

              5. Justified limitations

              • Subject to section 4, the rights and freedoms contained in this Bill of Rights may be subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

              Basically most of the people who cast the holy BORA over their wishes are simply illiterates who haven't read the Act.

              • weka …
                21 January 2022 at 8:45 am

                does that mean we still have the BORA rights we had before, and the additional authority the government has because of the pandemic is consistent with BORA allowing for other legislation to take precedent?

              • RedLogix …
                21 January 2022 at 8:48 am

                Well that seems to tilt you toward the BORA is a dead letter end of the spectrum does it not (the keyboard on my 10yr old Dell Latitude has finally started to die, and I have no apostrophes and questions marks surprise)

                Excuse me if I am reading you incorrectly, but there remains the unanswered question of where to draw the line. There will always be endemic communicable illnesses, and legislation can therefore always be invoked to override BORA on these grounds.

                Obviously there has to be a threshold here, but no-one seems willing to tackle this.

                • lprent …
                  21 January 2022 at 11:12 pm

                  There are other provisions in BORA that influence the type of legislation that can be produced, and effectively act as a check stop on the types of debate that legislation and any enactments can go through.

                  Where legislation and other enactments aren't covering something, and it runs on common law – then BORA becomes important. Similarly when the police or another enforcement body stretches the legislation or enactments too far, the BORA provides a limit.

                  My point was that BORA isn't an instrument overriding existing law – which is a lot of people seem to want it to be used for.

                  It doesn't obliterate laws that are legitimately passed with due process. If you want to have them different from what is written, then the best place is before they are written, or in select committee.

                  In tool terms – BORA is a loose tool like a crescent. You use it because it is all you have, tolerate the rounding the corners of the nuts as they proceed to become a circle, and plan to buy the right damn tool next time. General legislative law is like using proper sized tool for the job – and you can use it over and over again. Really good legislative law is like using a torque wrench – extremely precise.

                  BORA is a remarkable bit of legislation both for its clarity and its ability to put legal principles into legislation. In particular for the way that it forces new and updated legislation to be judged against those principles.

                  But it is still only a bloody crescent spanner. Judges generally look at it and reach for the more precise tool of legislation that covers the particular circumstances of the case – by preference. You see that happen over and over again in court decisions at all levels.

                  It is there to cover the development of law, not to override specific legislation written to prepare from handing certain events, as rare as they may be. The legislation for reserve power events states who has responsibility and authority, paths for delegation, what the processes are for putting in regulation, and what the limits are. You usually find amendments done while the process carries on in legislation (thing of the couple of acts passed for the ChCh earthquakes or the minor amendments for the current pandemic).

                  The current pandemic legislation had its last major update done in 2006, and then had specific amendments done last year. Those were all passed through using the BORA oversight – the time to change those acts was then. Not trying to use BORA for a purpose it was not designed to be used for.

                  Trying to use a legal crescent spanner in pandemic, or a chemical weapons spill, or a flood, or a earthquake, or a war or any of the reserve power situations is ridiculous idea.

                  The real danger happens if you don’t have that kind of legal clarity. The favourite time for would-be dictators to mount their usurpation is in the middle of disasters – invariably by using in-precise crescent spanner laws. Surely you don’t want that kind of sloppiness in our legal system – because I sure as hell don’t. That is the kind of stupidity that kills or maims large numbers of people – look at the legal basis for WW1 and you can see that pretty clearly – all the way through to the 1917/8 flu pandemic.

                • lprent …
                  21 January 2022 at 11:28 pm

                  With the laptop, try getting a good robust keyboard that can travel in a pack or a bag. That is what I do.

                  Currently I use Logitech MX Keys (used to use the solar powered Logitech K750 series for more than a decade).

                  I usually have a set of 3 of keyboards/mice. One for work, one for home, and one sitting in a pack ready to go. I also use the Logitech MX Anywhere mice. They last forever – I still have mice and keyboards in storage that are a decade old.

                  The later MXs allow you to control up to 3 devices with a button (or software on windows) via bluetooth (or one machine on dongle).

                  I don't like shifting keyboards or mice, and I routinely work on a lot of computers even within a day. I can do without the muscle memory issues of changing entry systems. Today I used three computers. Personal laptop, work laptop, and after I got back from Hamilton – this server. It also means that your laptop keyboards and touch pads don't get worn out.

    • Blazer 2.5
      18 January 2022 at 10:00 am

      Tamaki knows …any publicity is good ..publicity….donations gratefully…accepted.

    • weka 2.6
      18 January 2022 at 10:04 am

      Brian Tamaki is protesting against vaccination mandates. Thank God someone is.

      Ardern never mentions human rights – she only repeats more and more reasons that government overwhelming force can't ever leave your life.

      Tamaki is fighting against state power like the left used to.

      Maybe write a post on this? (Ardern rather than Tamaki) Would be good to have a discussion that's grounded in reality and not sidetracked by the grifting that Tamaki is also doing.

      • weka 2.6.1
        18 January 2022 at 10:05 am

        Maybe I'll do one as well.

        • Ad 2.6.1.1
          18 January 2022 at 10:59 am

          I'll start posting when returned from leave.

          • RedLogix 2.6.1.1.1
            18 January 2022 at 11:32 am

            I found these three Paul Kingsnorth essays on this broad topic good food for thought.

            Often, in an argument, what people think they are arguing about is not the real subject of disagreement, which is deeper and often unspoken, if it is even understood. So it is here. The divisions that have opened up in society about the covid vaccines are not really about the covid vaccines at all: they are about what vaccination symbolises in this moment. What it means to be 'vaxxed' or 'unvaxxed', safe or dangerous, clean or dirty, sensible or irresponsible, compliant or independent: these are questions about what it means to be a good member of society, and what society even is, and they are detonating like depth charges beneath the surface of the culture.

            • Ad 2.6.1.1.1.1
              18 January 2022 at 11:58 am

              Not many crises are deep or long enough to re-write the social compact itself.

              IMHO the NZ state, by fully renationalising health, is using COVID as cover – despite no clear ideological basis for it, no electoral mandate for it, and flies in the face of the effective COVID response from DHBs with Maori and church-based NGOs over 2 years.

              So with minimized parliamentary debate the state is re-writing the social compact itself through public health, and the resting force on citizens is now massive and near irresistible.

              Greece has compulsory vaccine for over-60s, France is exceedingly coercive.

              The state and our duty to it is reborn this very year.

              • RedLogix …
                18 January 2022 at 12:11 pm

                Exactly. An virtually none of this new state based coercion is medically justified or even useful.

                So the obvious question it raises in naturally suspicious minds like mine is – why?

                • KJT …
                  18 January 2022 at 1:03 pm

                  Meanwhile. Outside the RL fantasy world, New Zealanders are enjoying their summer with few restrictions.

                  Because "State coercion", vaccination and public health measures, worked!

                  • RedLogix …
                    18 January 2022 at 1:36 pm

                    And here in 'Omicron disaster-land' Brisbane life looks pretty normal on the surface too.

                    But using that as a figleaf to pretend the state has not dramatically imposed huge changes to all of our lives this past two years – is pure denial.

                    • KJT …
                      18 January 2022 at 5:10 pm

                      Queensland. Sure. Pretty normal.
                      https://www.qld.gov.au/health/conditions/health-alerts/coronavirus-covid-19/current-status/statistics

                      "But using that as a figleaf to pretend the state has not dramatically imposed huge changes to all of our lives this past two years – is pure denial".

                      Who made that claim. No one.

                      I said “State coercion” in this case, worked.

                      Changes have been made, justified by the extent of the pandemic. Changes which have been shown to be effective by their results. And a majority supported, and still do. Over 90% voted with their feet and got vaccinated. Leaving an idiot fringe against. Democracy, remember.

                      Where were all you "rights and freedoms" people when I posted in Nationals Search and Surveillance bill? Which was a frightening and unecessary extension of State power.

                      I remember the response was a big fat, Meh!

                    • RedLogix …
                      18 January 2022 at 5:30 pm

                      Well if you think you know better than someone actually living here – I've just been out and about for several hours and apart from the masks everywhere – pretty damned normal looking.

                      The big issue is staff shortages. The Bunnings branch I was in yesterday had 35 staff of about 80 off sick. It means for example they can't get stock from the loading bay onto the shelves immediately. That's the less obvious impact affecting supply chains everywhere. And it will be the same in NZ when it eventually arrives so spare me the moral superiority sneer.

                      Of course the experience in all those countries ahead of us is that this will peak within a few weeks and decline after that. This is not the end of the world yet.

                    • KJT …
                      18 January 2022 at 5:54 pm

                      I presume that those who compile the Queensland COVID statistics, are "actually living there".

              • observer …
                18 January 2022 at 12:11 pm

                IMHO the NZ state, by fully renationalising health, is using COVID as cover – despite no clear ideological basis for it, no electoral mandate for it

                The health reforms ("nationalising") were fully laid out before the election, and the subject of much debate.

                Then there was an election, and a mandate.

                • Ad …
                  18 January 2022 at 1:51 pm

                  Wrong.

                  Labour ran on implementation of the Simpson-Roche report which was to rationalise down to 8-12 DHB's.

                  Full nationalization was a Cabinet-alone call and unsupported by the advice.

                  Stuff did a full policy comparison prior to election.

              • KJT …
                18 January 2022 at 1:13 pm

                Was actually something Labour went into the election with.

                Unlike Nationals privatisation of so much of the health system. To fund their ex MP's after Parliament share returns.

                Which is costing us so much now.

                • Ad …
                  18 January 2022 at 1:54 pm

                  Wrong. Simpson Report and Labour policy was 8-12 boards not nationalization.

                  Select Committee hearings were done and dusted before Christmas in days.

                  • KJT …
                    18 January 2022 at 5:19 pm

                    Labour did go into the election promising changes to the health system.

                    Sorting out the details later, is normal

                  • Descendant Of Smith …
                    20 January 2022 at 10:08 am

                    Pretty sure they are not taking over private sector hospitals. The ones that service the well off (within limits eg car accidents, heart attacks, all go public) and do cosmetic surgery.

                    What is this nationalisation you speak of?

      • cathy-o 2.6.2
        20 January 2022 at 9:26 am

        all this rabbitting on about human rights and freedoms.

        your human rights are not absolute. you only have the right to do things that don't conflict with other peoples' rights.

        for example you don't have the right to drive at 130 kph past a primary school at 3.15 pm on a school day. That endangers the rights of children and parents to move safely about their normal business and in fact the obligation for children to attend school.

        in this case you don't have the right to remain unvaccinated because that endangers the safety of the whole community. also with the right of assembly, the restrictions placed on close assembly in a time of pandemic are to protect the right of the community to not be unwillingly exposed to a dangerous virus. and with omicron inevitably on the way this is still very important.

        • weka 2.6.2.1
          20 January 2022 at 9:56 am

          in this case you don't have the right to remain unvaccinated because that endangers the safety of the whole community.

          Actually, in NZ we do. It's against the law for the government to force anyone into any medical treatment. There are some obvious exceptions in the mental health act (dubious ones imo).

          There are extremely important reasons for that. It's not a libertarian, we can do what we want, argument so much as a slippery slope, the government must have restrictions on what it can do or it risks becoming authoritarian.

          This imo is what Ad is pointing to. It's a big concern that the left are largely complacent about this at this time, in ways they wouldn't be if Nact were the government.

          It doesn't mean the government is necessarily wrong in it's pandemic approach, but at the least we should be having a wide and in depth public debate about governance at this time.

          The binary thinking is: left/Labour's pandemic response = good, the anti-vax/anti-response = bad. That's dangerous, it leaves us thinking we can do no wrong. But we can.

    • Louis 2.7
      18 January 2022 at 3:19 pm

      Surely this is satire.

    • pat 2.8
      18 January 2022 at 5:28 pm

      Lol…..Tamaki is doing what Tamaki always does, serving Brian Tamaki's interests….nothing more.

      He has no higher moral imperative.

    • Powerman 2.9
      19 January 2022 at 3:48 pm

      I have the right to be protected from potentially infectious people. In Tamaki's case, we have a showman and a charlatan with no scruples about tithing the poor to pay for his lifestyle, if his actions are tolerated or ignored he will gather strength and support from the gullible. Fake bishop or tennis star all are equal under the law, it's time that the boil on the bum which is Tamaki is held to account for his actions.

      • Gypsy 2.9.1
        20 January 2022 at 10:48 am

        "I have the right to be protected from potentially infectious people."

        No, you don't.

        • joe90 2.9.1.1
          20 January 2022 at 11:02 am

          No, you don't.

          There have been prosecutions for knowingly infecting someone with a communicable disease. Why would knowingly infecting someone with Covid be any different?

          • Gypsy 2.9.1.1.1
            20 January 2022 at 4:56 pm

            The answer is in your question. 'Knowingly'. That supposes will and infectious status. You don't have any right to not come in contact with someone who just may happen to have covid but not know about it.

    • Tricledrown 2.10
      19 January 2022 at 7:43 pm

      Artful Conmen & Tricksters.

      Tamakis Natural home other than jail.

  3. mac1 3
    18 January 2022 at 8:44 am

    Brian Tamaki is not the messiah. Nor is he a very good prophet.He prophesied that Destiny would be the church with political power in 2008.

  4. aom 4
    18 January 2022 at 8:44 am

    Clearly the self-proclaimed Bishop doesn't understand the difference between Democracy and Anarchy. Still, what does one expect from a self-obsessed, tithe enforcing, autocratic evangelist. Ironic that his custodial remand was imposed by another evangelist, Judge Evangelos Thomas

  5. Ross 5
    18 January 2022 at 9:19 am

    Brian Tamaki has been remanded in custody after repeatedly breaching his bail

    Allegedly, Micky, and as a lawyer you would know that. 🙂

  6. Maurice 6
    18 January 2022 at 10:11 am

    Next … attack the Church?

  7. Siobhan 7
    18 January 2022 at 10:22 am

    This guy is winning ..for one guy with a fairly small congregation, a mere drop in the bucket of the anti vacc/mandate crowd, he gets all the free publicity he could possibly want. To them he is the Messiah ..who also, incidentally broke Pharisees' laws and was probably dismissed by some Romans as "a very naughty boy".

    Trump won an election on the back of free liberal press scorn…I wonder where Tamaki will end up when the smoke clears.

  8. Blade 8
    18 January 2022 at 11:18 am

    Tamaki has made his play. He will either gain traction and become a major player in NZ…or he will sink into oblivion. Time will tell.

    • Gezza 8.1
      18 January 2022 at 11:33 am

      Will certainly be interesting to see what happens now in respect of his stand on Covid -related restrictions, his public profile, and who will rally to his support.

      But I dunno if he’ll ever sink into oblivion. He’s had a real talent for regularly mounting various Public Relations-type controversial stunts to ensure that he keeps getting media and public attention.

      • Blade 8.1.1
        18 January 2022 at 11:43 am

        Yes, can't deny that. He's a natural at PR. Even down to his plucked eyebrows that tend to become bushy as men age. I have a young relly in DC. They have told me the ex gang bangers he surrounds himself with may not commit crime anymore, but their macho attitude hasn't changed that much. The young ones, according to my relly, get bossed around by these chaps…and sometimes there is a definite gang vibe around the place.

        • Gezza 8.1.1.1
          18 January 2022 at 12:10 pm

          Wouldn’t be surprised. I’ve watched a couple of docos on Freeview’s Bravo channel on US Christian cults that started out ok but went bad (ended up with people murdered at the orders of the leader).

          While I’m not suggesting that’s where Destiny’s heading, both of these cults had developed distinct gang vibes among their leaders’ security goon squads.

          Destiny Church & Apostle Tamaki look to me very much like a Christian cult.

    • McFlock 8.2
      18 January 2022 at 3:22 pm

      lol if he becomes a "major player", it might bite him in the arse when people start looking at him more closely.

      He has his wee flock to regularly shear. As soon as he becomes a political threat, any dirt he's accrued will start leaking out.

      • Blade 8.2.1
        18 January 2022 at 3:45 pm

        Depends on what you mean by a political threat. A social threat to society would be enough.

        ''He has his wee flock to regularly shear.''

        That may be the immediate case…but every malcontent now has a home if they want with the good bishop.

        While I doubt the Tamaki case will come to much, you seriously underestimate the potential harm Tamaki poses.

        Bad news from Robbo. Chris telling us NZ is going back into lockdown, or a natural disaster could change the political and social landscape in the blink of an eye.

        Take Europe for example. It's only a matter of time before the far right gain power somewhere. Then what? And…how did it happen?

        https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/2/3/far-right-europe-pandemic

        • McFlock 8.2.1.1
          18 January 2022 at 4:38 pm

          The Tamakis have been angling for political power for decades, but frankly they're too fringe. Joining the anti-vax (because yes it is a vaccine) crowd simply reinforces their victims' devotion, it's not going to get broad support.

          Any alliance they make will be unstable, and a weak point for their ally – ACT? National? Have prosperity-fundy extremists leveraged them? Sure, the Brethren funded Brash, and that was a massive own goal for the nats.

          Our bigger threat are racist extremists. They're the ones who can put on a suit and after 30 years be in a position to quietly direct policy.

  9. observer 9
    18 January 2022 at 12:02 pm

    Brian Tamaki's followers bravely protest against the vaccination (no, not the mandate) by scaring children … the guy's a hero, eh?

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/01/coronavirus-terrifying-voices-for-freedom-protesters-descend-on-vaccine-centre-but-healthcare-workers-inside-ease-children-s-fears.html

    • mary_a 9.1
      18 January 2022 at 4:34 pm

      observer (9) … Let's hope the vulnerable children haven't been put off from receiving future medical procedures, through the inconsiderate actions of the creepy protesters involved, forcing themselves and their views on innocent young Kiwis. It must have been a very frightening experience for the children.

  10. tsmithfield 10
    18 January 2022 at 12:08 pm

    I think Tamaki has got precisely what he wanted: The chance to be a martyr for the cause.

    I think that by deliberately flouting the bail conditions, he has been goading the authorities into jailing him. He will be loving the publicity.

    • Puckish Rogue 10.1
      18 January 2022 at 12:11 pm

      100% agreed.

      'There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.'

    • tc 10.2
      18 January 2022 at 1:04 pm

      Agreed. His flock will pick up the tab as he left the police little choice.

      He could sell a Harley or house instead/sarc.

  11. Peter 11
    18 January 2022 at 12:57 pm

    Tamaki is protesting. Against mandates? He's protesting against the Government, well protesting that he isn't the Government.

    So much of what he has said in the last couple of months is what he was saying before the 2020 election.

    Imagine when they crack the 5% line in 2023 and Mrs Tamaki is a list MP.

    • KJT 11.1
      18 January 2022 at 1:06 pm

      Tamaki is fund raising, for his own benefit, as usual.

      Getting arrested, unfortunately, will just add to the amounts he is able to bludge of his followers.

  12. tc 12
    18 January 2022 at 3:40 pm

    Oxygen supplier for the entitled, the herald, is pimping BT's night inside and Tova's not wanting to be held to her contract.

    Cry me a river.

  13. mary_a 13
    18 January 2022 at 4:42 pm

    Too bad if the Apostle Bishop drops his soap showering, while in lock up!

    • Blade 13.1
      18 January 2022 at 6:06 pm

      No need for that. Induction would have been a mortifying experience for the good bishop.

    • Lukas 13.2
      18 January 2022 at 6:15 pm

      Because prison rape jokes are funny if it is about people we don’t like right? Hahahahaha.

      Oh wait. They’re not.

  14. Tiger Mountain 14
    18 January 2022 at 5:21 pm

    I have been in despised minorities many a time while exercising the freedoms of association, assembly and speech in this country for working class and international solidarity purposes. Exhibit A–when IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands died, around 200 of us H Block supporters lead by Dean Parker, and carrying a mock coffin, marched up Queen St in pouring rain. We were roundly and loudly abused from the sidewalk all the way up the street.

    Many activists have paid a price over the years including the ultimate price for Christine Clark, Ernie Abbot and Waihi miner Frederick G Evans. Others have been incarcerated (Marx Jones), bashed severely by coppers, falsely charged, rights abused, and illegally surveilled by the state.

    I have resisted the temptation to give anti vaccination protesters a personal serve because I respect their right to peaceful protest. But make no mistake–in terms of the existential threat of viruses in the climate change era they are not people to be admired.

    Moisten the bus tickets for Tamaki, slap his strong Harley throttle twisting wrists, fine him and send the wally off.

    • Anne 14.1
      18 January 2022 at 5:57 pm

      I recall an anti Apartheid protest back in the 1970s (Muldoon era but well before the 1981 Springbok Tour) outside Eden Park. Helen Clark was by chance standing next to a group of young men who tore down a wire fence. It had nothing to do with her but it didn't stop a hefty policeman man-handle her as though she was complicit. I remember her shocked look in the TV clip of the incident that evening. She was a nobody at the time so I bet the policeman concerned felt a bit stupid when she became a prominent MP a few years later and ultimately PM.

      I have tried several times to locate that video because it was widely screened at the time but without success.

  15. Obtrectator 15
    19 January 2022 at 11:06 am

    MSM are complicit in all this nonsense by giving the guy and his antics so many column inches. But I guess they have to fill all that space around the ads with something that'll divert attention from the real goings-on they'd rather we didn't know about.

  16. Jenny how to get there 16
    19 January 2022 at 1:58 pm

    Brian Tamaki is in our tax payer funded prison system.

    Brian Tamaki pays no tax.

    Should he, Brian Tamaki, be sent the bill for the cost of his stay?

  17. logie97 17
    19 January 2022 at 3:54 pm

    And on tithing.

    After every 10th parishioner passes through a megachurch door, that's one salary notched up.

    So 10 low-waged worshippers, gives a pastor a minimum wage. 20 and that's the misses taken care of, 30 and that's the verger taken care of. 300 and that's ummm … heck not a bad ninety minutes work. And of course they're not all low waged. Some say the congregations are somewhat (much) larger.

    • Tricledrown 17.1
      19 January 2022 at 7:56 pm

      Indebt up to their eyeballs from the loan sharks domiciled in his cult headquarters.

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