How is homophobia still a thing?
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11:00 am, March 8th, 2016 - 62 comments
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St Matthew-in-the-City is a liberal Anglican church in the middle of Auckland city. Its theology is to encourage liberal thinking and progressive theological exploration. It states that its hospitality is to welcome all people, no exceptions, to the table. Its justice statement says that the church wishes to engage in just and radical action for the dignity of all and the sustainability of the Earth.
Who could possibly be upset by this? I will repeat this question, who could possibly be upset by this?
Well it appears that there are at least two homophobic Neanderthals in Auckland. From Radio New Zealand:
A central Auckland church known for being supportive of LGBTI rights had to call police after men with a loudspeaker shouted homophobic abuse at worshippers, it says.
Yesterday’s 10am service at St Matthew-in-the-City was halfway through when the men, who the church said warned they would be back next Sunday, turned up wearing black shirts and dark sunglasses.
About 100 people were inside, and Reverend Helen Jacobi, who was taking the service, said the men intimidated church members who should be able to worship freely.
“A couple of our people went outside to engage with them and ask them to stop. They wouldn’t, and so they called the police,” she said.
The men also said the church would crumble and worshippers would be punished, which was “pretty horrible kind of stuff”, Ms Jacobi said.
Ms Jacobi tweeted her outrage: “Worship @StMatthewsNZ this morning disrupted by hateful homophobic ‘protesters’ with microphones. Shame on them!” she wrote.
The men were moved to the footpath by the police, but stayed for the rest of the service and tried to engage again with worshippers as they left, she said.
These two individuals apparently plan to return next Sunday. Perhaps Aucklanders with a more tolerant view of life could also attend to express their support for some of God’s creatures who have less traditional views of their sexual identity.
And if you want biblical support for what St Matthew in the City is trying to achieve then there is this statement from the last supper:
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Update: A very reliable source has provided me with these photos of the individuals involved.
And this video.
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Black shirts, sunglasses, bigotry and religion in Auckland, who does that remind us of?
Yeah my thoughts too, maybe behaving like lowlife assholes is their “destiny”
Have memories of a raucus intruder being carried bodily from this church 25/30 years ago …could well have been on related issues….he didn’t return.
Sounds like a mental health issue.
Two of them?
Nope. Sounds like fundamentalist Bible believers.
The more tolerant Christians either don’t know about, don’t care about, or don’t accept the OT and NT anti-homosexual verses, or they do accept them, but they see no reason to make a fuss about it because they’ll be going to heaven and that’s the main thing.
I think you’ll find most Bible believers are able to differentiate between a behaviour and an individual.
The Bible
http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_homosexuality.htm#Bible.
The Quran
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/homosexuality.aspx
Get rid of Religion, you’d get rid of 99% of Homophobia
Nah. NZ is a pretty unreligious country, but we still have a lot of homophobia.
Some people are just idiots.
Lots of religious schools in NZ
Still around half the population has Christian beliefs.
http://www.stats.govt.nz/Census/2013-census/profile-and-summary-reports/quickstats-culture-identity/religion.aspx
The story is about homophobes picketing a church.
Many of the same people who follow the a small section of the Bible regarding homosexuality ignore equally unequivocal and adjacent passages against eating shrimp.
I’m not one to follow magic books myself, but I suspect there’s a cause:excuse distinction at play here.
“Still around half the population has Christian beliefs.”
But that doesn’t equate to homophobia. Plenty of people with Christian beliefs don’t care.
Religious homophobia appears to be a fundamentalist thing (where people are socialised into the hatred and it’s tied to the sanctity of marriage, and the special place that reproductive humans have in God’s plan), or a personal discomfit thing. The personal discomfit thing is shared by non-religious people too.
Wow! What a disgusting website you linked to for the Quran!
Homophobia, just like any type of hate, isn’t solely cos of a religious belief or institution. Most anti-social phobias are formed thru secular means; Fear of the other isn’t a religious based phenomenon.
“Get rid of Religion, you’d get rid of 99% of Homophobia”
I agree with you on that. You would probably get rid of patriarchal attitude towards women and improve our attitude toward sex as well.
But we’d still have slavery. Oh and get rid of the sallies, World Vision….yeah good idea.
How would getting rid of religion (yeah good luck with that: next you’ll figure out how to exterminate rats) affect humanist values?
Answer: it wouldn’t. Humanist values are at least as old as religion.
The presence of slavery is because we have right wingers.
Maybe someone should investigate and see if the perps have ever eaten shellfish (Leviticus 11:12) or pork (Deuteronomy 14:8). Were they wearing clothes made of 2 fabrics (Deuteronomy 22:11). None of that is allowed either according to the “good book”.
I can’t stand fools who pick and chose what to follow in the bible, either it is the true word of god or not. Make up your mind and live your life accordingly.
They are not shouting outside McDonalds about cheeseburgers and bacon burgers. They are not picketing the fashion shows about mixed fabrics. They don’t shout about eternal damnation outside the fish shop to people buying shrimp or crayfish. These perverts and haters only get their jollies from abusing GLBT people. The book is just the excuse.
don’t know how to embed a YT video so listen to this, Bob Marley’s first recorded song: Judge not.
https://youtu.be/xHkt3iatFcs
What an odd pair.
Snappy duds though. I do love a man in uniform. Oh to be in Wellington 😈
These idiots sound just as silly as the people protesting at a Tennis tournament in Auckland about 6 years ago.
Both have the attitude that everyone must do precisely what they say.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3212353/John-Minto-arrested-at-tennis-protest
Maybe on the third day they turn up they will be arrested too.
nice diversion attempt.
Tactics might be similar, but campainging for human rights is a wee bit different to campaigning against them.
I don’t know what the purpose of this post is but I’m grateful to live in a society where people can freely express their opinions.
Personally I don’t agree with what they are saying but if they want to express an opinion counter to societies narrative then good luck to them. Provided they didn’t interfere with people carrying on their lawful business I don’t have a problem with it.
As an alternative, you might ponder the connections between hate speech and violence, and reconsider the notion that no harm is being done.
Totally agree
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-28022016/#comment-1139955
Totes valid, that comment. Positively marinating in validity.
There is no hate speech here. And there is no violence. But keep up the attempt at suppressing freedom of speech.
Right, so testifying that homosexuality is an abomination under the heavens totes has nothing to do with gay-bashing. Keep telling yourself that.
With freedom, comes responsibility: you know, that thing wingnuts pay lip service to. The market has no immediate answer to National Party values; if it did, regulations would be redundant.
Testifying that Israel is the devil is jew bashing, but we allow it. It’s called freedom of speech. People bash Christianity, white male privilege…you name it. Why should homosexuality be exempt?
So which is your position? That it’s hate speech but that’s ok because it’s not the only example, or that it isn’t hate speech and that’s ok because freedom?
Having an opinion that homosexuality is morally wrong is not hate speech. Having an opinion that Israel is an evil nation is not hate speech. The inconsistency of the left on this, however, is an example of intellectual bankruptcy.
🙄
Speaking of inconsistency, watch those goalposts move!
It’s hilarious to see someone so inept, that they accuse “the Left” of behaviour they themselves are guilty of, in the same comment. The very stuff of intellectual bankruptcy.
Did I mention their opinion? Nope.
We need better wingnuts.
No movement from this quarter. But I’d be happy to clarify anything you don’t understand.
Then why are you blithering about the state of someone’s mind in a debate about the effects of their speech? Please try and keep up.
Must have been too cerebral for you. Try this…there is a difference between having a view that murder is wrong and hating murderers. That simpler for you?
There is a difference between holding an opinion and voicing it.
There’s a very big clue in the phrase ‘hate speech‘: your red herring is a red herring. I couldn’t care less what homophobes think; your attempt to pretend that’s the subject of discussion is beyond flaccid.
Clutch at another straw if I were you. It’s your only hope 😆
“There is a difference between holding an opinion and voicing it.”
Only in an intolerant, closed, bigoted society.
The difference being that it’s only when I say you’re an idiot that it becomes a problem.
No, it doesn’t. You can say anything you like, as long as you aren’t telling people to harm me. That’s freedom of speech. Saying homosexuality is weird is not hate speech. It is an opinion, freely expressed. Just like saying you’re an idiot.
Meanwhile, on Earth, in practical terms, it’s fighting talk, inflammatory. Radio-Television Libre des Mille Collines, for example. Donald Trump, for another.
In the immediate context, it leads directly to violence against LGTB Kiwis.
Can you provide a single example of where criticism of homosexuality has led to violence against LGTB kiwi’s? Just sounds like special treatment to me.
“Criticism” 🙄
Sure.
Oh look, here’s another:
Do you deliberately block the multitude of news reports such as these from your memory, or is your reflexive (and rather pathetic) litany of denial a sign of tacit approval? I think you approve.
Those aren’t criticism of homosexuality by one person leading to actions of another. They are the actions of angry bigots, or of violent people looking for an outlet. Your claim was about criticism of homosexuality by one leading to violence by another. Now provide some evidence, or you are simply calling for special treatment of gays over others.
And here’s where your special treatment takes us:
http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/american-dispatch/50336-christian-preachers-brutally-beaten-at-gay-pride-festival.
It empowers a victim mentality that then turns violent. Gays don’t need your special treatment, they do fine without it.
So you think the various assailants in these reports created their personal homophobia out of whole cloth 🙄
Nah, you can’t be that ignorant, after all, you linked to a story providing a direct example of how verbal taunts can lead to violence: a crowd was abusing the vile god-botherers just before they were attacked.
I note that you are so crap at debating you have to keep inventing strawmen: no calls for special treatment from this quarter. Is your incompetence a manifestation of stupidity or are you just dishonest?
Minto was targeting a single individual, a tennis player representing herself, not her nation. It was a reprehensible personal attack on a person right to earn an income.
I was uncomfortable with Minto’s strategy too. On the other hand, should we behave like nannies, and shield Israeli citizens from the disgust their government manufactures?
similar argument against protesting the Springbok tour, though.
Not necessarily identical, but prominent sportspeople do evoke a distracting national pride.
“similar argument”.
Not really. The Springbok team were representing their country.
The tennis player was only representing herself. Protest against a national team representing their country is valid. Against an individual,l who happens to be from a country you don’t happen to like isn’t.
Can I demonstrate outside a house harbouring Syrian refugees in New Zealand and keep them awake all night with a loud-hailer because I think Bashar al-Assad is a murderous bastard? No way.
Look at the national pride we have in our successful athletes, national team or not. Hillary was part of the British expedition. Fucksake the America’s cup is a corporate ego gig and thousands were buying red socks.
But if you protest Syrian refugees all night, the only people to celebrate would be the Syrian regime. See the difference?
I’m sure any Israeli citizen knows it’s shortcomings, just as any citizen of the Palestinian territories knows what a murderous regime Hamas is.
They can express their opinion but they also get to deal with us expressing our opinion of their stupidity.
I’d be interested to know what their angle is. Generic anti-gay is one thing, but specific issues that promote protest can be something else.
I’m not a Christian, but Jesus was pretty clear in his instructions on how to live:
James 4:11-12 ESV
“Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?”
AS a Christian I would suggest that the gay bashing pair along with other fundamentalists are simply idiots. The Bible is made up of a whole lot of books by a whole lot of different authors. They are writing in many different times from different perspectives. Hey I think that its a bit like the Standard you know a whole lot of authors, different perspectives. What fundamentalists do is pick out a verse or two and use it to prove their point often ignoring the main point of the book it is from. They always claim that God backs their opinion. An analogy here would be taking a sentence from an article in the standard, quoting it out of context and stating it is Lprents’ opinion. Pretty dodgy I would think.
They are entitled to their views. They are entitled to protest.
However I believe they should be ridiculed for these views and that is our entitlement to do so.
Throw out the Bible and its values and you get absolute chaos, mess and backwardness. Once NZ was one of the most richest and best places to live, well above Singapore, for example. Post war we are way down the list. Wow, chucking out our Christian-Judeo values and embracing Godless, secular ones was such a good idea…….not. Once we had it all, now we are in a shattered, feeble state.
🙄
Bearing false witness much?
I agree entirely, we need to get back to biblical values:
Once, we fed the hungry without question. Now we treat them as bludgers.
Once, we healed the sick. Now we put them on waiting lists.
Once, we believed a rich man could not enter heaven any more than a camel could pass through the eye of a needle. Now we believe that only the rich can live on Planet Key.
Once, we waited for the person without sin to cast the first stone. Now we throw stones at the homeless (or at least spray them with water in the middle of winter).
The sooner we get back to loving one another, the sooner we’ll get back to the best standard of living in the world.
Yeah, stringing up gays with piano wire would really fix this country, that’s for sure.
Yet the people currently dismantling what we have are mainly religious or aligned (National Party) with religious groups.
Have you not noticed the alignment between the religious right and the National Party. Have you not noticed how things are worse under National not better.
Post War when you perceive it as great was built on secular values of socialism.
Prior to DPB that many women were stuck in violent marriages, the law that allowed them to be raped by their husbands was based on religious dogma, many didn’t leave their horrible violent husbands cause the church forbade it, many lost their children to unknown families because the child was born out of wedlock – often both mother and child suffered as a result.
The failure of religious groups to pay tax yet their willingness to take tax payers money knows few bounds, the abuse by ministers on those under their protection.
That being said it’s not really the failure or influence of religion that’s caused most of today’s issues.
It’s the re-assertion of laissez-faire / neo-liberal economics from an elite that like rust never sleeps.
It does however seem slightly weird that you make your downfall of society assertions in this post. I can’t believe that anyone would think that acceptance of homosexuality has caused our problems.