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How To Get There 16/12/18

Written By: - Date published: 6:55 am, December 16th, 2018 - 216 comments
Categories: Economy, Environment, human rights, political alternatives, Social issues - Tags: ,

This post is a place for positive discussion of the future.

Prompted by TS regular Robert Guyton who suggested we have a dedicated thread where “the way forward can be discussed, within parameters such as doable suggestions, successful examples, contributions from readers who support the concept of the thread, new takes on the future etc.” How To Get There is an Open Mike for ideas, solutions and the discussion of the possible.

The Big Picture, rather than a snapshot of the day’s goings on. Topics rather than topical.

We’d like to think it’s success will be measured in the quality of comments rather than the quantity.

So have at it! You might want to talk about gene editing or free public transport.

Maybe the future is solar? Maybe it’s female? Maybe the future is merely a philosophical concept that’s had it’s day?

Let us know what you think!

216 comments on “How To Get There 16/12/18 ”

  1. Rapunzel 1

    The “future of work” is going to be different – the “four day week”, or versions of it, is the answer for families, with children especially, and ultimately the rest of NZ. Savings in time and travel costs are an aspect too, the reduced traffic volumes in school holidays are very visible and workplace flexibility is the ideal place to start with an eye on a future that is more balanced than at present.

    • Robert Guyton 1.1

      Part of the “fifth day” could be spent in the garden, growing vegetables. Children could be part of that. Mine all garden, as do their children.

      • Rapunzel 1.1.1

        It can be applied in lots many ways for the benefit of all. We were in “infrastructure” for many years and the impact of the “future of work” impacted some of that a couple of decades ago with new machinery that could bypass trenching duties and the like. But with such work, especially with daylight hours, doing extra hours or variable hours that suited over four days immediately removes one days set-up and travel time and cost. Flexibility and genuine planning and application, by agreement, also meant that jobs could be completed sooner and hours or days in lieu used to meet requirements to suit.
        Likewise as some older people aren;t always ready for full retirement progressively reducing hours overtime allows them to pick up hobbies and interests that will fill the days once that comes. Having them still in the workforce is useful in introducing and training staff for the future.
        It’s not one size fits all but I have seen it work fantastically and allows the family time you speak of. If you have two working parents over four days each or similar it could easily reduce a child’s time in care from five to three days and fewer chores to interfere with weekends.

        • greywarshark

          Wouldn’t it be great to have a weekend of two days off, perhaps the two days extending into the normal week – Friday-Saturday or Sunday-Monday but have at least one day of the old weekend when people, family, sport be possible with people who want to be together able to meet. Not this living to work grey life that suits the money-mad, consumer-based industry idea of people as buying entities to be milked as a separate business sector.

          • Rapunzel

            In the industry I worked for much of the time that was basically the norm though it was part of rotating roster (4½ days but paid for five) – but within that there were people with other interests or obligations/commitments who would “swap” their rostered days with others so with some flexibility everything was covered to meet the need.
            Last week it was raised that hospital and doctors visits become part of activity that is calculated as productivity – if the causes for the “care” are avoidable there is less “activity” but more savings up front due to prevention. Not all productivity can be or is counted for its value, if you have time and walk to the “shops” or work as an example you have saved vehicle costs and the price of time and money in joining a gym or similar. I think this is the case that less can be much, much more.

            • greywarshark

              It is the idea of less, little, being multiplied by everyone in NZ and amounting to much, much more that we have to keep in our minds. Otherwise that thing about we are too small to make a difference gets to be the major response. Also it could be said that it is good and noble, unfashionable word, to try and help your country, your fellow citizens and locality to be great again!

              Away from the Trumpet, the sound of that could be a rallying cry, always remembering the phrase from gestalt psychology:

              original famous phrase of Gestalt psychologist Kurt Koffka, “the whole is something else than the sum of its parts”

              I imagine this would mean that a group of people after hearing a speaker, would all have a different idea of what has been said, and suggested as a possible result. And applied to academics, the outcome of a meeting enabling their freely expressed opinions and ideas, would likely result in something different than would have been expected. If this thinking is right, then trying to gain consensus at too early a time in discussions would limit the value of the resulting decision.

      • Grafton Gully 1.1.2

        Do you know if others are imitating your children and grandchildren in their gardening ? Imitation is a powerful trait and either that or state enforced behaviour are the options for change it seems to me.

        • Robert Guyton

          I reckon the most powerful agent for change is envy, “I want to do what they do, live as they live, because they seem so happy and are having so much fun!”
          This can be both good and bad, as you might imagine.

          • Rapunzel

            Are you sure it is envy? In lots of ways it is living by “example” by which you learn and then perhaps even adapt to your own needs or even better outcomes.

            • Robert Guyton

              No, I’m not sure, I was just having a go at explaining it. Following someone’s good example is the better option, I just wonder how many do that, rather than seeking to have what someone else has, consciously or unconsciously.

  2. Ed 2

    I saw a great film called Demain which made many fine suggestions for our future.
    These were their solutions,


    • Ed 2.1

      One example.

      “Buy in local and independent shops”


      “Many studies show that buying in a local and independent company creates 3 times more jobs, while money circulates 3 times faster, and creates 3 times more local taxes which come back to the local communities and bring back 3 times more donations to the local associations.
      For 1 euro spent in a multinational company, very few cents will stay in the local economy. The money is capitalised and participates to strengthen the power of some global giants to the expense of local players. The inhabitants loose grasp on their local economy.
      Maintain a local economy controlled by its inhabitants, restrict outsourcings, speculation and tax avoidance.

      How ?

      Check who owns the companies you buy from and their social and environmental policies.”

      • Adrian 2.1.1

        This is so true, in a great example of a ” contained” industry like the Marlborough wine industry. It is a mix of global corporates, huge investment fund entities, large NZ out of town companies and local co-ops and family businesses.
        For any local projects, events, sports teams or charities we can not get the steam off a turd from anyone of the non-locally owned companies.
        It is left to the Yealands ( which every Marlburian with a power account owns anyway ) Forrests, Giesens, St Clair, and the not so visible small family owned entities like our own who contribute what we can but in a vastly disproportionately larger way than any of the out of towers even though they make up almost 85% of the industry. From them SFA.
        So if you are buying some Christmas cheer check the ownership this year and buy locally owned, it’s a lot better wine anyway.
        And for any business or Economics Masters students try looking at it for as a thesis.

        • greywarshark

          Perhaps we could have a post with our favourite NZ made products that could be bought for Christmas or in 2019, with contact details so people could go and order now, or put on the list for a visit pre-Christmas.

          Just getting a heads-up would be good for different small producers. I shop New World supermarket and their brand Pam’s is good, but it replacing the individual producers and reducing their business profile so they are invisible on the shelves.

          The cream I used to use is no longer available at the pharmacy I shop at as it has been bought out by a large national group who don’t want to bother with small companies. The health care shop I went to is the same.

          Friends of NZ micro business would be a site where people could go for information enabling them to buy locally made items, they couldn’t be from Australia made by a NZ company. ( They might have Pacific Island ventures though they would have to belong and be made by Pacific Islanders running their own businesses.) We small fry need to help each other.

    • mauī 2.2

      Ed. Thank you.

  3. Robert Guyton 3

    Last Sunday’s toe-dip-into-the-water for a thread that’s for great ideas/searching questions under the title, “How to get there” was quite a good splash-around in the warm shallows of thinking regarding the future and whether or not there will be one. Almost everyone contributing held back any anxiousness that might have accumulated after a week of newspaper reading, political blogging and general exposure to the trials of the outside world, and floated thoughtful suggestions on our little pond while other blew gentle zephyrs of support across the surface to animate them – or something like that (please excuse the flowery prose – it’s early in the morning and I’m still buzzing from the gig in our garden, two nights ago, by the Alpaca Social Club who filled the forest with funky Czech swing Celtic stuff and drew a dancey-crowd of locals who stayed late and early, talk, talk, talking, well after the musicians had laid down bouzouki and guitar found a pillow on which to lay their head).
    And now it’s Sunday – yay!

    • Jenny - How to get there? 3.1

      And what a Sunday

      • Robert Guyton 3.1.1

        The weather here in Southland is superb! Pristine, blue skies (halcyon? Are they halcyon?) a gentle zephyr to create a little movement in the tree tops and more heat than we really need; it’s a wonderful Sunday and probably has many of “our people” enjoying their gardens and/or the beach.

  4. Ad 4

    Does anyone else have partners who only buy their stuff at Salvation Army, St Vincent de Paul, SPCA, Hospice, and other shops?

    Makes for a fairly efficient Christmas, and somehow they come back a little happier than from the malls.

    And to state the obvious, they are museums of near-history that you get to re-use and essentially buy memory.

    • Sabine 4.1

      i generally buy all of my stuff second hand or while going to the markets. That is one of the aspects i always enjoyed about NZ. The many people who make stuff and make it so well. Most of my clothes are made in NZ by local seamstresses. I still have a skirt i bought 20 years ago in Wellington, not one seem broken, zip still working. There is no way you can buy that quality from a made in a sweetshop type shop.

      I recently read about a ‘second hand’ upcycle Mall in Finland. I am not a friend of malls, to busy and too noisy, but i like this concept. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/recycled-mall-sweden-retuna_us_5bfd0762e4b0eb6d931346b3

      And the same with food, the local markets are quite good now, and people like Community Fruit Harvesting are a great group to buy Jams/Chutneys/Cordial etc of, all made from NZ back yard produce. http://www.pickfruit.co.nz/

      And laybys, i like those too and they should be advertised more. Don’t buy on your credit card, ask for a layby. So much cheaper, more fun, and less stress involved.

      • Sabine 4.1.1

        sorry sweden not finland. Not sure why i thought of Finland..

        • Robert Guyton

          And speaking of that part of the world…

          • Ad

            Robert we started off so well this morning.
            Can we not do this COP24 disaster?
            Too sad.

            • JennyHow to get there?

              To paraphrase Greta Thunberg’s message

              Many people say that New Zealand is a small country and it doesn’t matter what we do.

            • greywarshark

              Can we take a turn in our approach to the COP24 which I have only been following after reading Chris Trotter on Bowalley Road.

              He feels that it is not going well, to say the least. And the latest radionz news says that the Polish hosts seem to be a large part of the reason for it not moving in the right direction.

              Well okay. But bright minds from the public from around the world I am sure can think of ways to affect the minds of people who can make discretionary decisions. Who amongst the coal producers in Poland and elsewhere is open to converting to renewables as a median step to reducing carbon. How can the carbon tax work to enable employment of coal miners in new jobs? It is time to be flexible thinkers and get those ideas pushed and becoming mainstream, as the old ways and ideas have stopped being efficacious, now infectious!

              We must break through the crust that prevents us from getting at the contents of the pie. We have been prevented rather than facilitated by ‘our’ representatives from actions that actually deal with our problems and it is time for us to formulate alternative and useful approaches.

              • Ad

                I don’t always agree with Bill but he’s right.

                Too late for much meaningful multilateral action within a comprehensive rule-based framework.

          • Jenny - How to get there?

            It has been said, Our generation, (ie baby boomers), is the first generation to experience climate change .and the last generation to be able to do anything about it.

            Greta Thunberg, and other young people have more than shown that they understand the issues and are prepared to act.

            It is unconscionable that our generation is making irrevocable decisions now, that will negatively impact these young persons lives, and their children’s lives, and their grandchildren’s lives.

            Decisions in which we allow them no say in.

            Decisions which, when they come of age, they cannot undo.

            One thing we could and should immediately do.

            Is lower the voting age.

            “You say you love your children above all else, yet you are stealing their future.”

            “You are not mature enough, to tell it like it is. Even that burden you leave to us.”

            Greta Thunberg

      • Kay 4.1.2

        “I still have a skirt i bought 20 years ago in Wellington, not one seem broken, zip still working. There is no way you can buy that quality from a made in a sweetshop type shop.”

        @Sabine I still have a skirt bought in Wellington 30 years ago!!! (More surprised it still fits…). Still in very good condition despite years in suitcases, collecting mould, shocking laundering practices, and yes, made in NZ just before the mass enslaught of made somewhere in Asia arrived.

        Regrettably, NZ made clothing -actually manufactured here-is now the preserve of the well off, unless we’re lucky enough to come across some in an op shop.

        • greywarshark

          Kay I think that we need to form buying patterns that support NZ small manufacturing, which will always be dearer. Perhaps we will pay into an account for that business each month, as people do for a Christmas club, and then when the season comes and we want a new garment or tool or plants, then the money is there to be drawn on. And the business has regular capital come in from its loyal, supporting customers.

          We will have to make deliberate decisions to do this, NZ cannot pour money into buying overseas goods, and will have to learn to support each other, pay more and buy less import stuff. This will have to come from the grassroots, the government has been captured and is now wearing the straitjacket used for mentally distressed people.

          • Kay

            That’s an interesting idea gws.
            I wonder if over recent decades since the rise of mass imports that the easy availability of cheap clothing has become part of the instant gratification culture as well as the throwaway culture?

            While aware some will accuse me of playing the ‘yes,but’ line here, I hate to say that cheap, easily accessible clothing (and not all is easily accessible at op shops, eg underwear) is a necessity for many.
            And it comes back, as always, to income, or lack of.

            I can also give an example of how a ‘Xmas Club’ style plan, or even layby for a locally made product can be very impractical for some people. I spent many years going through extreme weight fluctuations caused by medication, which of course resulted in numerous changes of wardrobe. It would’ve been a pointless exercise in spending a lot of money I didn’t have on a quality local made item that wouldn’t fit me by the time I paid for it.

            • greywarshark

              You had special requirements. You were served by having an op shop handy. So op shops are useful and have been for many decades. As people are not receiving wages that have matched even our low inflation, and at the same time have had to face rising housing charges that have not been controlled by the low inflation targets, the citizens are being squeezed dry. Op shops are ever more important.

              (However as a a long-term op shop worker, I noted how they themselves put their prices up ahead of inflation, and tend to behave like second-hand shops, and price even simple things higher than is justified by their real or theoretical mission statements. They have to pay their costs – rent, electricity, petrol for pick-ups, manager and staff minimum wages, and volunteer celebrations, but they are often over-pricing clothes for too long in a season, only cutting costs low at the end of a season. Some will not let anything go under $2 for instance until the end of the season and the clothing is not needed then. And stock of household, kitchen goods could be vastly reduced in price. But excess stock has goes to the dump, and they complain of the cost which could be reduced by fairer prices matching people’s low discretionary cash.)

              While it would be a good idea to have that Christmas club idea going, I am not suggesting that it would suit everyone, or can be afforded by all.
              But those who are poor need to take a part in the discussion on how to build our economy back again in a way that is supportive of the lower income persons, who constitute a very large proportion of NZs.

              You may not be able to participate in all the ideas going forward and hopefully being implemented, but they will help to provide pathways for people you know, and bring about a society that is better for all, as the wealthy will still continue to be wealthy, but lower income NZ will also have improved conditions and opportunities.

              These will ensure that there is an economic flow at their level, in their strata of the economic division of society. Result, a happier environment with busy people with good things to do, places to go, credits to earn of some sort, and ability to buy necessities with money or credits with some left for fun and friendship and simple enjoyment.

        • Sabine

          i disagree with your thought that NZ made clothes are only for the well of.

          I suggest that you go to the local Markets and you will find lots of NZ made frocks, casual and very elegant stuff that is made by women (generally) from all over NZ that are excellent designers and seamstresses but who don’t have enough business to afford commercial leases.

          these come to mind pretty much immediatly

          MOZART from Raglan – who sells at market and at the Matapahi Gallery in Raglan, or online https://www.facebook.com/mozartraglan/ or Doris Plum from Tauranga https://www.facebook.com/Doris-plum-933475180167671/ who is also at various markets.

  5. WeTheBleeple 5

    After receiving many gifts I have no use for I’ve finally decided to stick up for myself and request what I want, or no gift thank you.

    I came to this realisation last spring. I was having a spring clean up and decided to wash all socks. I had a whole drying rack full of them. Where did all these damn socks come from (males wash socks when sock drawer is near empty, not when pile is high). It was well meaning relatives buying me socks.

    I made a custom christmas card of the drying rack of socks with tinsel on it. “No, I don’t want any more socks”.

    Garden tools and plants. That’s my request. And a list of suggestions.

    Similar to weddings where a list of suggested gifts is offered, save the rest of society from spending christmas day thanking people for items that have no relevance.

    Nobody needs more useless stuff.

    I don’t wan’t junk food, synthetic clothing, or appliances. No gift certificates for gyms or massages or any of that nonsense.

    I will be dishing out bags of nuts to people. What? Traditional muck? No, I grew them.

    I have one relative who makes us all jam. Yay her!

    • greywarshark 5.1

      I am thinking of doing that with toiletries. Whatever I want I will get through the organic shop where they have made stuff from natural ingredients with the least additives possible.

  6. Robert Guyton 6

    Sure, AD, but wasn’t she something – a modern Pippi Longstocking with a powerful message.
    Perhaps this’ll ease your anguish:

  7. patricia bremner 7

    We are going to a performance of the Messiah by the Auckland Choral Society in which N’s brother is singing tenor in the Auckland Town Hall.
    For some reason it came to mind while I was watching the sheep!! LOL LOL

    • Robert Guyton 7.1

      Hi Patricia – I’ve just now been talking with my daughter in Portland, where last night they sang in a cathedral? church with a big crowd of people, the Messiah, all seated in their “groups” – tenor, soprano etc. and all belting it out for all creation to hear 🙂 Only trouble was, the power failed just as they were about to start and they were plunged into darkness, until the phones came out and everybody read their music by that shared light. It sounded like it was really lovely.

  8. greywarshark 8

    We are all close to being peasants according to Marx, and much of the Marxism I hear quoted seems to match what I observe, so I take notice of it. Therefore this radio report refers to matters important to us.


    farming inequality
    Marc Edelman on the rights of peasants
    From Sunday Morning, 7:20 am today
    Listen duration 13′ :07″

    Marc Edelman explains what the UN Declaration on the Rights of Peasants and Other People Working in Rural Areas means. Just seven countries voted against its adoption recently, and of those was NZ.

    Supporters claim the declaration will benefit more than one eighth of the world’s population and protect biodiversity and traditional crops. The declaration includes the right to save, exchange, and sell farm-saved seeds, a contentious issue over which small farmers have been campaigning for years. Marc Edelman is a professor of anthropology at the City University of New York whose main focus of research is the peasant movements that promoted the declaration.

    • DJ Ward 8.1

      That’s the Monsanto thing. They sell a GM or developed crop. It pollinates the neighbor who can no longer legally plant the contaminated seed. They then have no option but buy Monsanto’s seeds.

      Shouldn’t Monsanto be paying compensation for in effect poisoning the farmers crop. The contaminated pollen came from the Monsanto farm. The farmer was innocent.

      One of the worst corporate corrupt practices.

      We have seed companies to protect, which I suspect drove NZs vote.

  9. greywarshark 9

    Opening up the idea for altering our parliamentary system. We can remember what parliamentary means*. It has had a long history, and perhaps needs to be amended for the 21st century which is fast imploding on itself.

    Perhaps we the people, need people drawn from the people, to represent us.
    Not career politicians, not just those with white teeth and glib ways of presenting ideas that may cut us to the bone when handled! What is sortition? I have yet to listen myself, but think that items on Radionz are apt for this post and so am getting them so they can be available today to readers, and archived to carry onwards.

    8:38 Tim Dunlop: sorting out society with sortition
    Tim Dunlop
    Tim Dunlop is a writer and academic who has written extensively about Australian and American politics, the media and the future of work. His latest book is The Future of Everything – Big Audacious Ideas for a Better World. He says nothing is going to change until the main source of power in our society – government – includes people who are genuinely representative of society at large. And to do that we need to embrace a voting system known as sortition.


    *parliament (n.)
    c. 1300, “consultation; formal conference, assembly,” from Old French parlement (11c.), originally “a speaking, talk,” from parler “to speak” (see parley (n.)); spelling altered c. 1400 to conform with Medieval Latin parliamentum.

    Anglo-Latin parliamentum is attested from early 13c. Specific sense “representative assembly of England or Ireland” emerged by mid-14c. from general meaning “a conference of the secular and/or ecclesiastical aristocracy summoned by a monarch.”

  10. Robert Guyton 10

    Has anyone found frog spawn yet this summer? There’s none locally, and I’m concerned. Frogs have called, but I’m hoping they haven’t croaked.

    • Sabine 10.1

      i have heard one frog, so far in the little wetland near me. And it gave me great pleasure, but sadly it was only one……no chorus of frogs.

    • Cinny 10.2

      Up the valley they left the pool up over winter, ended up being riddled with tadpoles, what a treat for the kids.

      Most have at least their back feet now, many losing their tails. We scooped up hundreds and put them in tanks so they could grow. Just little tackers, currently about the size of a finger nail, that like to sit on floating bits of wood. Placed up high due to free range poultry and guinea pigs 🙂

      They’ve got a lovely marshy area to look forward to when they are bigger.

      The girls brought some home and we made a pond outside for them, scooping out any mozzie larva every few days.

      Lots of kids had tadpoles when I was growing up, but it’s not that common anymore. The tadpoles we brought home have been a big attraction for the local kids. Who have spent ages out there just watching them. And so have I 🙂 They are amazing creatures.

      • greywarshark 10.2.1

        Sounds great. I never imagined that frogs would become rare. We used to take an interest in tadpoles got from a farm a short distance from town. We also used to collect acorns to sell to deer farms while the boys were at school.

      • Robert Guyton 10.2.2

        Phew! Good news.

      • ianmac 10.2.3

        Tried saving cockabullies? They never make past a day or so.

        • Robert Guyton

          Probably need constantly running water. Bullies are beautiful – a most over-looked native fish, those bullies. It’s amazing to watch them in the shallows of lakes, such as Te Anau, flitting across the sands and pebbles of the shallows – magic!

          • ianmac

            70 years ago we tried to get bullies to survive but eventually discovered that they needed running water but not sure why. Oxygen in water perhaps?

            • Robert Guyton

              Probably, in essence, but maybe the mana o te wai also, who knows? Maybe we all need that…

            • Cinny

              Gosh yes cockabullies are awesome to watch. The kids find them in the shallows of the Motueka and Graham Valley rivers at times.

              Yes could be oxygen in the water Ian, I know with the tadpoles we give the water a stir up every day, just to oxygenate it.

    • ScottGN 10.3

      The usual crescendo of them in the pond up on the Kaipara Robert.

    • greywarshark 10.4

      Funny that. i was talking about parle-ament and the talking that goes there, and you are reminded about frogs – croaking. I wonder if there was a quick mental connection there.

  11. greywarshark 11

    Sorry to be packing stuff into this thread, but these are future-shaping ideas from RadioNZ.
    Listen up for Marilyn Waring. My personal belief is that we must give useful voluntary work a value equal to paid work, and that will solve our unemployment numbers. Further I think everyone should be having input into our country’s fabric, old age pensioners, students, everyone. We are all part of the New Zealand family and should have our jobs for at least an hour of a week, if we are not in paid work.
    Love our country, appreciate what we have, not just drain it to the last drop.

    9:35 Marilyn Waring: wellbeing, women’s work and economic policy

    This year marks 30 years since Dr Marilyn Waring’s ground-breaking book Counting for Nothing. In it, Waring explained through in-depth economic analysis, how the success of the global economy rests on women’s unpaid work and the environment – yet both were systematically ignored and undervalued by conventional economic measures. In her new book Still Counting she argues that the planned Living Standards Framework and a shift to a wellbeing approach, don’t necessarily mean women’s work will be valued fairly. She also lays out a vision for what a new, genuinely transformative economic measure would look like.
    She is Professor of Public Policy at AUT says Wallace. (Apparently Wallace is going to be replaced by Jim Mora. Will we hear the great people interviewed that Wallace has been so able in presenting?)
    Audio will have to be added later.

  12. greywarshark 13

    Who remembers that 60’s mantra – The phrase “practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty” (was written by Anne Herbert on a placemat in Sausalito, California in 1982.)* This could be an example of that which encourages people to be involved with each other and do something kind using some skill that one has. Crazy and fun idea. Where will the crazies pop up next could be the question each weekend or each day, make being in the community and volunteering sexy perhaps.

    10.40 James Hook: pressing desire to iron

    James Hook, aka the Iron Man, is the founder and ironer-in-chief of the Brooklyn Ironers’ Union. Hook and his fellow ironers set up their boards in bars and cafes in the New York borough and iron strangers’ clothing for free.

    Brooklyn Borough president Eric Adams recognised the group earlier this year with Brooklyn Ironers’ Union Day on April 23, saying he applauded the organisation for ‘ironing out the folds’ in Brooklyn’s diverse cultural tapestry. The union meets monthly and is preparing for a big Christmas ironing session at a local bar.


  13. Ad 14

    COP24 rule book is agreed to as of 1 hour ago.

    Let the analysis begin.

    • greywarshark 15.1

      So where is the quid pro quo for this Luxembourg scheme They do happen to be a very wealthy country based on financial cleverness I seem to remember. And i can’t get any info on it as I still have my ad blockers on. So how to easily get around and keep the car at home, and who is going to pay the cost?

      The local shuttle to the airport have tried setting a $10 charge that is very cheap for door to door service. I don’t see them getting large numbers. I think we have a seachange necessary to change the easy-peasy culture we have around car use. And a seachange is coming – but how will poor little NZs cope when it comes? Who would have thought that this terrible disaster would suddenly arrive? Why didn’t someone tell us, do something to prepare etc etc.

      Sorry Robert – a bit of cynicism creeping in there. But observed behaviour, so I offer truth as my excuse.

      • Jenny - How to get there? 15.1.1

        “….. and who is going to pay the cost?”


        Maybe we could ask the motorway mad lunatics for the money.

        These nutters seem to have no trouble at all finding $billions for new motorways

        Next generation Roads of National Significance – NZ National Party

        Aug 20, 2017 …$10.5 billion for 10 new Roads of National Significance. … come from our record infrastructure investment of $32.5 billion announced in Budget 2017….

        …..They are:

        Wellsford to Whangarei
        East West Link in Auckland
        Cambridge to Tirau
        Piarere to the foot of the Kaimai Range
        Tauranga to Katikati
        Napier to Hastings
        Manawatu Gorge
        Levin to Sanson
        Christchurch Northern Motorway
        Christchurch to Ashburton

        Can the whole lot of them, and switch the money into free and frequent public transport, nation wide.

        That should more than cover it.

        By my estimation, even if you canned only half to them, that would pay for Fare and Frequent Public Transport into the foreseeable future.

        • DJ Ward

          Would the new motorways result in more efficient travel for very large numbers of vehicles creating more reduction in emmisions than what you think you gain with your idea of free buses. Nothing’s free and attempting to fix what those spends are trying to fix isn’t going to be fixed with some free buses servicing central cities. Or should I say subsidising the buisinesses who’s workers and shoppers use the ‘free’ bus.

          You would create far greater results with car sharing initiatives. I and another guy did it resulting in a near 50% drop in work vehicle use. The government didn’t spend a cent.

  14. Jenny - How to get there? 16

    “You might want to talk about gene editing or free public transport”

    No, I don’t want to talk about gene editing, which I consider to be about as unproven and risky as carbon capture.

    But I would like to talk about fare free public transport which is a proven strategy for addressing traffic pollution and congestion .

    Transport represents about a third of our emissions

    But we seem to lack the political will and/or imagination from both central and local government to do anything about it.

    I have suggested in the past that maybe to get the ball rolling, we could start small, and begin by bringing fare free public transport across the Auckland Harbour Bridge into the downtown area.

    That idea didn’t get any traction..

    Maybe we need to tie fare free, to something the Big End of Town really care about, and suggest making Auckland fare free for the America’s Cup regatta, just as Los Angeles is doing for the Olympics.

    LA Metro CEO proposes free public transport for all in Los Angeles

    Last week, Metro CEO Phil Washington endorsed a bold proposal: implement congestion tolls on drivers to make public transportation free. If the proposal moves forward, it would fit into a number of projects Metro has in the works, which all aim to turn Los Angeles into a seamless public transportation utopia before the Olympics come to town.

    Maybe we could try the same tactic, and make an appeal to the those behind all the big decisions, that the enjoyment of their precious sail boat race could be jeopardised by Auckland’s chronic traffic congestion and pollution unless it was lessened by making all bus, train and ferry travel fare free. (at least for the duration, And see how it goes).

  15. DJ Ward 17

    Robert Guyton ask me for some input rather than just pointing fingers at others.
    So I’ve had a bit of a think like I said I would.

    I’ve mentioned in the past when talking about what needs to be achieved in the electricity network about small hydro and how’s there’s 100s of potential sites.

    To get change you need as many groups as possible in agreement.

    So the subject is waterways.

    Goal. To significantly increase the number of small ponds, lakes, etc.

    Proposal. That, beginning with larger landowners, they quantify that infastructure. If they are below average in m2, they must build a new pond etc. They can be, part of the watercourse, or separated. A simple garden hose from a creek at 1litre a minute dribble gives 1440 litres a day. They all must include an approved wildlife ladder, precast on the cheap at a factory. They must be fenced with a pond to fence distance. The water, governed by a minimum pond level, can be used by the farmer, including electricity production, stock watering, irrigation. A lending facility is made available to make financially viable projects happen. Specialist teams could go from site to site to reduce costs, and standardise projects.

    Who benifits and why or how.

    If a pond such as the garden hose example gives the farmer 525,000 litres a year for watering stock then there is 525m3 less water that would be drawn from an Aquifer each year. In theory water drawn from trapped Aquifers travels to the ocean increasing sea level rise.

    Ponds provide life giving options for many species. Larger ponds can have predator proof, floating nesting islands too. People working on this issue can join with the landowner in designing in much needed habitat.

    Power use.
    Aquifer pumps generally use on grid power or fossil fuel power. Replacing this with at the pond solar for stock watering systems. IE how much power was required to pump that 525m3 out of the ground and around the farm.

    Power Production.
    Systems could be designed around just powering a cow shed chiller, water heater, or the whole operation. That can be done with recycled washing machine motors, you can buy ready to go systems. It could also be a consistent below the grid power provider. Below the grid is where at your gate eg 1MW flows at minimum. You supply only 1/2 MW to the network so no upgrades are needed and your never actually forcing more use or back flow on the network. It’s also financially viable to administer, remote turn off for the network operator, with some scale.

    Sediment, pollutants.
    Ponds help collect and process waste.

    The landowner.
    The projects increase water security, even profitability. If Stock become short of water for any reason, the economic effect can be large. A single cow under water stress that misscaries costs a farmer a few thousand dollars, or the herd must be dryed off early might cost $50,000.

    If every Cow Farmer (10,000) created just one 100m2 pond then you have 1,000,000 m2 more wetland. Or 5.25 million m3 less water withdrawn from Aquifers a year. If you counted in the one off larger projects, run off farms, small block holders then the numbers would be significant.

    The idea is to bring the landowner with you. They have more water options and projects would progress due to obligations, cost reduction, and income generation.

    • greywarshark 17.1

      Wow just wow DJW. I leave it to engineers to assess the detail but great idea and presented so that anyone can understand it.

    • Robert Guyton 17.2

      Yeah, that’s some good thinking right there, Mr Ward. Have you thought of using wind-powered mills to lift water higher for use generating electricity; you could run the same water through again and again and add oxygen as you go. I know there are aquaculturalists here who could suggest add-ons that would produce food for you. Mechanically lifting accumulated silt using windmills would also be useful for keeping pond capacity. That enriched silt could be useful as topdressing on pasture. Just some quick ideas but I’m impressed by your suggestions.

    • Ad 17.3

      When does a pond become a dam?

      Add pipes and tadpoles to your recipe and you’ve got Central Plains Water.

    • ken 17.4

      Put in fish ladders, and you’ve got my support.

    • Draco T Bastard 17.5

      If a pond such as the garden hose example gives the farmer 525,000 litres a year for watering stock then there is 525m3 less water that would be drawn from an Aquifer each year.

      A pond doesn’t give water – it captures it. Where’s the water coming from?

      If every Cow Farmer (10,000) created just one 100m2 pond then you have 1,000,000 m2 more wetland.

      A pond is not wetland:

      The Resource Management Act 1991, the major Act of Parliament determining land use, defines wetlands as “permanently or intermittently wet areas, shallow water, and land water margins that support a natural ecosystem of plants and animals that area adapted to wet conditions.”

      This is a wetland.

      and I doubt that a mere 100m2 would be big enough for what you seem to want unless you dug it really deep – 10m or more.

      At the end of the day it’s about how much water is falling upon the land. No amount of ponds will increase that. As water storage they can help in dry times – for a short while.

      • Robert Guyton 17.5.1

        Swales would be better, probably. Humus-rich soils even more so (for storing water “under” ground.

      • greywarshark 17.5.2

        I think this would be a good place to repeat a linked item on natural water storage in Australia that I put in last week.

        Peter Andrews is old and says ‘I couldn’t die not believing i didn’t try’.
        Malcolm Turnbull and the whole story.

        Also should South Australia’s farmers be subsidised? Scott Morrison

      • DJ Ward 17.5.3

        That’s why I put in the Wildlife comment. DOC may get involved in designing habitats, etc.

        A large project might have a 5 meter shallow, planted edge while the centre is dug out to a good depth. A small pond may just work in a 1cm depth change. 1m3 of water over 100m2 is 1cm depth. You don’t need volume for stock water systems, regular flow in is important. It could be just 1/2 m deep, great for plants and fish. Volume is required in irrigation systems.

        Yes this idea takes water from water ways. But the system can be built around the water systems minimum flow. So the system may only take water when it’s 50% above that minimum. You use the high flow while protecting the system when there’s no rain. You don’t get anything for nothing. The important point is rain is a renewable.

        The perverse end of the argument is a farmer covers all his land with a rain collecting roof. So there is no enviroment, and no water for waterways.

        Yes Robert at 17.2 you could have many options for different places. The ponds power system could have a small wind genarator and solar, plus a main battery running not only the pump but the electric fences as well. It would result in the farmer visiting the pond more often as well. The bigger you get the more you get into think big solutions. They should also happen but the small stuff adds up and gets people, the community, involved and they would feel good when the project is finished and working.

        I know a farmer that put in 8 ponds for duck shooting, however since he has so much pride in what he has created, nobody is allowed to shoot the ducks.

        • Robert Guyton

          “Yes this idea takes water from water ways. But the system can be built around the water systems minimum flow.”
          This idea is straight out of the National Party/Federated Farmers/Irrigation NZ playbook.
          John Key was a great proponent.

          • DJ Ward

            I think you should have another listen to your link.

            Nationals idea was purely in support of large scale irrigated farming without concern for the enviroment. Mine starts with the enviroment and try’s to make it commercial.

            We can’t do this because National thought of it. That 15 year old has no concept of the blind hatred and divide of politics. It is not there past, most no nothing of the war, Nixon, Vietnam, gulf wars, oil shock, Stockmarket crashes, Clintons BJ. They see the solutions like we do but they see your politics stops progress. The idea may be good but nothing happens.

            I don’t align to any party because none offer me anything. They are all useless and hate men. So I’m never presenting a National philosophy, rather one that works in my mind. I could of course be wrong. A better solution exists that that 15 year old at 30 forces on us when they destroy politics so they can get things done.

        • Robert Guyton

          “The perverse end of the argument is a farmer covers all his land with a rain collecting roof. So there is no environment, and no water for waterways.”
          And that’s called “reductio ad absurdum”, fyi.

    • WeTheBleeple 17.6


      I would just add the caveat to store water as high as possible on properties. On larger properties more than one storage (pond/dam) has benefits. So gravity fed irrigation from the top, and solar pumps pumping from the bottom storage to the top when the sun shines. Overcast and raining – don’t need the water/pump. Sunny for days – top pond’s full.

      Also, the ground itself is a massive storage. Sub-surface ripping on contour will allow the land to take on huge volumes of water that normally sheet off. Ripping slightly off contour from valley bottoms out towards ridges (while moving very slightly downhill to a ridge just below where you stand in a valley) will allow water to flow toward ridges where it is typically dry. (Keyline Irrigation, PA Yeoman).

      For power. If the sheds start using effluent in biodigestors they get a lot of biogas. The biogas can produce power. The solids left make really good compost just pile em up with contact to the ground and shelter from flood and let the worms at them. The liquid can go to wetlands to be polished. With both solar and biogas (lot of room for solar on top of a shed), a farmer might dump their reliance on both power and water.

      Damn solid post DJ. Nice work.

  16. Puckish Rogue 18

    So still thinking of blue-green as the way to go I had an idea that would appeal to most voters across the board, would be a great tie in and probably improve the 100% pure advertising theme and that idea would be ban all battery farming and crate stalls (except where needed)

    In effect NZ could proclaim to the world that we are 100% cage free, battery free, free range producers of meat

    Chuck in some minimum standards for red meat, if required, and we’ll be good to go. Yeah there’d be some increase in the cost of eggs, chicken and pork but eventually the market would dictate, through competition, the lowering of costs

    I’d say most people in NZ like eating meat and I’d say most of those are concerned with how those animals are treated.

    Its a win-win situation for all

    Hell I wouldn’t even be opposed to some government regulation around the costs of basic products like milk, cheese, butter and meat if thats the trade off needed

    • McFlock 18.1

      probably need to ban feedlots. Not exactly free range.

      • Puckish Rogue 18.1.1

        I’m ok with that, I mean imagine being able to proclaim to the world that we are 100% free range, that animal welfare is paramount, that buying NZ meat means you don’t support animal cruelty

        Labour want another nuclear-free moment well heres one, one that will over time be of economic benefit to the country

        If theres a party brave enough to bring it up and talk to other parties about it

        • solkta

          that buying NZ meat means you don’t support animal cruelty

          So you would do away with freezing works as well?

          • Puckish Rogue

            Baby steps, I think making NZ meat free range only will take a bit to sort out first

            • Robert Guyton

              “baby steps” – are we babies? Let’s be adults.

              • Puckish Rogue

                I suppose I could have said something like to going to the end of the path and then go to the horizon instead

                • Robert Guyton

                  Missed your chance!
                  In any case, can we afford to toddle now?
                  I sense immediacy in the air.
                  Great that you’re not confined to commenting in working hours now, Pucky!
                  Your conversion will be so much quicker now 🙂

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Yes we can afford to toddle, but baby steps eventually turns into walking which turns into jogging which turns to running

                    I just think if you want to make big changes, in NZ especially, you need to do it in stages otherwise you may well get a counter-revolution

      • greywarshark 18.1.2

        I’ll just put a repeat of a comment from WetheBleeple which seems relevant.

        WeTheBleeple 4.1
        22 November 2018 at 8:35 am
        …We do need to be very careful when reducing animal loads on land that we don’t go too far in the other direction. Animals are an integral part of avoiding desertification via rotational mob grazing to imitate herd migrations. The trampling and redistribution of organic matter via poop puts it close to the soil where it can biodegrade and build up topsoil. Reducing farms to actual carrying capacity will go a long way in reducing pollutants while maintaining core industry with which to grow on.

        The idea NZ is only good for bulk commodities is nonsense. We need to bring back local manufacturing and add value to our products here, not in some foreigners factories.

        We can make the best food in the world and charge the rich like a wounded bull for it while it is typical fare on our own plates. The rest of the world can learn from us, or pay for it.

        Corporate agriculture has to go.

        • Puckish Rogue

          I like it

        • Robert Guyton

          There were no hooved animals in pre-European New Zealand.
          Tramplers all 🙂
          “Corporate agriculture has to go”

          • WeTheBleeple

            Yes, but without the Moa to browse the landscape… 😀

            Animals are an integral part of any landscape, NZ was host to indescribably vast numbers of birds pre-man. Times have changed. Cleaning up farming is a lot more feasible than clearing them out.

            • Robert Guyton

              Yes, that’s true. But cattle, jam-packed into “breaks”? Moa roamed, scuffed up the ground as the moved about, and were followed by lesser ratites, feeding at different levels, all clipping, snipping and topiarying the shrubs and trees, letting light in, stirring up the understory.. cows smash the place up; they’ve no idea how the system here was designed to operate. Have you seen what cattle do to the ngahere, if they’re allowed in?

              • WeTheBleeple

                Cattle attack trees when they are minerally deficient. Get some salt licks. Also, we shouldn’t be running any livestock without good husbandry on the land.

                No animals have any idea how the system here was designed to operate as the system here is no longer intact. Now that human animals inhabit the place systems must accommodate them.

                We need to restore land and water. Cattle are the problem but can also be worked as part of the solution. At or below carrying capacity, using rotational grazing for recycling and flattening grasses and forbes to become topsoil. Organic matter, soil carbon and soil fertility all rise.

                PR is correct that we could go free range all animals and make a large impact on markets.

                Blue-green is still a pathetic attempt to leave out red. That is why the right should never be allowed in charge again. Whole swathes of society are immaterial to their delusional accounting.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Salt licks might save mature trees from being munched, but seedlings and saplings might not fare so well. Aurochs probably cleared forest fringes by the action of their passage, horns ‘n’ all. In theory, we can design a system where cattle, sheep and goats play a part, but I wonder if that’s the best option? The can be encouraged to do as you say; trample stalky pasture and their own dung into the soil and build it that way, but that’s a process that originated elsewhere and is mostly foreign to these climes. Our processes were unique and why couldn’t we develop that, rather than following a European/African model? Maybe use herds of ungulates to tidy up the mess they’ve already made, then ditch them for a more nuanced management, where soft-footed mammals (us) continue on the work, using our brains, rather than our “hooves”. This doesn’t sound practical, I know, more romantic but I don’t reject such thinking just because it’s flowery 🙂
                  How about reforesting the whole country and developing a pan-New Zealand possum industry?

    • Robert Guyton 18.2

      I don’t think “appealing to voters” is an agreed-upon criteria for these discussions, Pucky ; these discussions hover above the political carcass 🙂

      • Puckish Rogue 18.2.1

        Ok fair enough but would you agree that, as a general idea, making NZ free range farming only isn’t a bad one or are their any flaws I haven’t thought of?

        • Robert Guyton

          The flaw might be in wanting to farm livestock at all. Why not free-range plants as a basis for our wellbeing.

          • Puckish Rogue

            Because it goes back to what I was saying before about blue-green and compromising to get things done. Using James and Ed as examples Ed would agree with you but maybe James wouldn’t whereas Ed might, grudgingly, accept free range (if it can lead somewhere else) and James probably would

            At the moment making NZ free range would, to me, be a vast improvement of the farming we have now and anything else like making plants the basis of food production or getting rid of freezing works (I’d look at abattoirs first but thats just me) would be a conversation to have at a later date after

            • Robert Guyton

              Compromise will most likely end in missing the boat altogether, Pucky.
              I’m with Greta.
              She’s not asking for violent revolutionary overthrow, and neither am I. Her messaging is what will do the business, not “compromising” – doing deals with orcs.

              • Puckish Rogue

                “Compromise will most likely end in missing the boat altogether, Pucky.”

                No it won’t. Compromise is only a dirty word because politicians twisted and basically didn’t compromise or, at the very least, pay lip service to it

                I’m talking both sides sitting down and nutting out the issues and both coming to an agreement.

                ie All sides agreeing to what free range means, all sides agreeing to legislate it and, above all, all politicians having the strength of character to not renege

                Blue-Green making together to improve the lot of farm animals would be very revolutionary especially in NZ

                • Robert Guyton

                  Eric Roy, National Party MP, Deputy Speaker, Blue-Green instigator, fellow councillor, is now chairman or the Pork Board (or some such).


                  • Puckish Rogue

                    I think for anything like this to happen it has to be the Greens to start the conversation on this, National want the status quo but the Greens have power, if they choose to wield it

                    • solkta

                      Yes, the Greens could use all their “power” and get National half way to where Labour already is.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      The Greens have shown they’re more than willing to compromise and they’d get a much better deal from National than they did through Labour/Winston so whats the big deal in just talking

                    • solkta

                      they’d get a much better deal

                      100% pure bullshit.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Shows what you know. What do you think National would have given up for being in power, the Kermadec sanctuary perhaps, certainly probably wouldn’t have made Eugenie Sage front the selling of the water

                      But really you represent why the status quo will remain in NZ, if the Greens won’t even bother to talk, just talk, then the Greens will always be behind Winston in getting anything done

                    • solkta

                      There is no way that National would have changed the water laws under extreme urgency, and probably not at all. That is a ball that they wouldn’t touch over their nine years as they don’t want to face up to Maori interests in water.

                      And the Greens don’t want to do the Kermadec thing the National way, walking all over Maori rights.

                      Both those would have been small change anyway compared to the Climate Commission.

                      And National would not have done medical cannabis and the referendum on personal use. And most of the other stuff..

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Like I said you represent why nothing will happen because you can’t, or won’t, consider the possibilities because you’ve already decided what National will or won’t do without even checking what National might do for power, because you just “know”

                    • solkta

                      I don’t think you understand what the Greens actually stand for. I’m not sure if you even know the same re National.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Hey, Pucky – I’m not enjoying your regression into hackneyed politic-speak/squabble – it goes nowhere – more interesting would be your personal ideas and views about what we can do; can you leave the politics out of it, for at least this thread? Cheers.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Yeah sorry about that

          • McFlock

            Because the prospect is depressing as hell.

            Free range meat isn’t a huge change for folks. It’s just a hit in the profit margins of some people who expect us to swallow their negative externalities in our waterways anyway.

            Turning everyone vegan is. And one that is highly debatable.

            • Puckish Rogue

              Also the less stressed the animal the better the quality of the meat

              • Robert Guyton

                So soothe them, then kill them: yummy!

                • McFlock

                  That’s what they exist for. If we didn’t eat them, we wouldn’t have them in the first place.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    We wouldn’t have them, but they might have themselves, elsewhere.

                    • McFlock

                      Only in some manner of reincarnation-style scenario.

                      Pretty much all the various farmed breeds of cows and sheep etc originate in domestication with food production being at least part of the goal.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Are “farmed breeds” lesser creatures than their wild family members?
                      Are they beholden to us, somehow, because we facilitated their time on earth?
                      Should they accept their fate (killed at our discretion) because they were born at …our discretion?

                    • McFlock

                      “Acceptance of fate” assumes they are moral agents capable of (to use my personal rule of thumb) writing an essay of what they did on their holidays: conception of self, conception of others, conscious memory and object permanence, and some sense of time and other abstractions.

                      Maybe cattle share great works of literature with each other. I doubt it, though.

                      Should they be dealt with cruelty? No, at the very least because cruelty is a dick move anyway. But slaughtering a cow is nowhere near murdering a person.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Unless you are the cow. They might feel differently (or the same).
                      If they are unable to “accept their fate”, we have to do it on their behalf, having taken on that responsibility when we brought them into the world, or at least, arranged their visit. Do you think they might feel, if they could, a little used and if so, should we be okay with that?
                      What is a person? Can only humans be a person?
                      There’s a river in the North Island that has been granted personhood, I believe. If a river, why not a cow?

                    • McFlock

                      Legally granted personhood. The legal rarely intersects with the moral.

                      Basically, I figure personhood is pretty well quantified by the requirements of the essay-writing test. It doesn’t need to be literature, but the elements required to attempt it cover most of the main characteristics of a moral agent. Elephants, great apes, whales, and possibly some sorts of cephalopods probably fit the bill. Cows… nope.

                      And if they’re not moral agents, then you might as well project similar intelligence on rocks or plants.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Bestowing personhood upon plants and rocks might be the answer, McFlock; then we might treat them differently. Mind you, the way some of us treat our fellow humans gives pause to that thought…

                    • McFlock

                      Seems to me to be a bit of a pointless moral fiction to consider personhood for the minute parts as individuals when we should be more concerned about the environmental system as a whole.

                      But I spent last night ruminating over the other end of the knot – a sort of Logan’s Run scenario where cattle are actually people who live happy lives then killed as humanely as possible by an enterprise that requires that last bit in order to provide the happy lives for that population level.

                      I can’t say I’m overly comfortable with that situation, but ethically I’m not sure it’s a net bad thing – e.g. from a utilitarian perspective, it actually maximises happiness. Or maybe it’s good and bad, and to say it would be “better” or “worse” as a moral totaliser if that system were done away with is a nonsensical concept.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Yeah, that’s pretty interesting, Mr McFlock. I’m mindful of the ways of hunters from way back in human history who (probably, possibly) had processes for dealing with those difficult thoughts; ceremonies, respect, behaviours, dances, art that established a connection between them and the animals they killed. Most fascinating for me, is the “mirroring” of animals through dance, costume and story, that brought both man and animal as close as possible together, making the creature a “person” perhaps, and increasing the sympathy/empathy, despite still eating them, an act itself that was pitched as bringing two beings together in one vessel.
                      Bit tricky to do on a dairy farm, I suppose, but the fault lies with the dairy farm, not the practice, imo; the relationship between cow and farmer (consumer too) is out of kilter and we’re all suffering because of it.

                    • McFlock

                      I suppose that bow or spear hunting (atlatl or not) requires a greater understanding of the prey, too. In addition to dance being a medium of teaching.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Yes. And being intimately connected to something, even an issue, must result in better decision-making.
                      Could we ask dairy farmers to dance their cows into the milking shed, do you think – for the better understanding of their “girls”?

                    • McFlock

                      I reckon most good farmers have a “connection” with their livestock as it is. Couldn’t do the job without knowing a thing or two about them.

                      Which is different to thinking of them as people.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      We have to eat and, until we can artificially produce living cells, that means that something is going to have to die for us to live.

                      I note that this is true of every single living thing except plants and fungus.

  17. ken 19

    The future does not and will never exist.
    All we have is now…….no, now……..I mean now……no, not then….. now…. ummmmm……….now.

    • greywarshark 19.1

      There is still time to get rid of this silly stuff Ken. You put a good one in at 4.02 pm so why not leave it at that.

    • Robert Guyton 19.2

      Ken’s right though; the future’s a construct, useful, but mesmerising. The closer we can hold to “now” the more effective we will be.

  18. mary_a 20

    Buying second hand and recycling should not only be encouraged, but also promoted and promoted hard.

    Same goes for recognising the overall benefits gained from cultivating and harvesting one’s own fresh produce, without abusing or spoiling the environment, while at the same time self subscribing to the practice of bartering fresh food in our communities.

    IMO self reliance on the land as a survival skill is the best means towards a clean future, that can be sustained.

    • Robert Guyton 20.1

      I agree, mary_a – we’re enormously fortunate to be the recipients of sunlight; a resource that is practically limitless and at the heart of our well being. Harvesting that through the use of plants is the most worthwhile human activity, imo.

      • greywarshark 20.1.1

        …subscribing to the practice of bartering fresh food in our communities.
        IMO self reliance on the land as a survival skill is the best means towards a clean future, that can be sustained.

        I am interested in healthy farming and growing and also finding the lines of employment that we can follow in the future. I don’t see that being self-sufficient is going to enable all in the nation to adjust to climate change and the simpler life.

        People will have to come out of the cities won’t they? If there is to be bartering fresh food in the communities, and they are landless, they need to be provided with housing and product to make so they can barter. They are landless so have to trade with something that they obtain, and make sufficient from their product to enable their living and housing. How will they fit themselves into the community wealth system?

        • mary_a

          Thanks for your thought provoking comments Grey.

          My previous post was what I visualise for a cleaner, productive more positive future for NZ.

          People won’t have to come out of the cities to achieve what I suggested. Fresh vegetables can grow in pots for city folk not having the land available to grow fresh produce.

          Social issues aside (of which there are plenty), self sufficiency is achievable for anyone desiring a simpler, more economic lifestyle. I also include recycling here as well. And bartering can be done with anything, if people have the goods to barter with available at their disposal. One person’s junk, can be someone else’s treasure! We can also trade and share our skills.

          Changing our present attitudes and adopting these aspects of living will contribute to assisting the planet.

          Being an optimist, I sincerely believe it is something achievable, although there is a lot of work and education to be done on this topic, if we are to realise the value in living our lives in a more simple and practical way.

          • greywarshark

            Yes mary-a I like your ideas. If we can have a sufficient UBI with a side helping of NZ credits that can be spent at useful places, so just local sellers, in exchange for volunteer help so they are working for them and that would apply to retired people also, we should be able to make a happy sub-culture while the wealthy aim for the stars and have the better life that they think they deserve. They will have to come down a few $100Ks at the top, but they can bugger off if they are unahppy and we can settle down with our vibrant communities and our friendly lifestyle and our community barn-raising and fewer criminals and always something going on that is fun so no need to resort to drugs for stimulation.

            What a nice vision i think you will agree. But i am seeing it now and then on a small scale and no reason for it not tio achievable amongst the go-ahead people of NZ. And we will once we can run things ourselves. And the local meetings will have to be moderated like this blog and everyone can speak but for limited time, and they will only be allowed one swear word from the list on the rule book. Meetings must finish by 10 pm when citizens will be ordered home from the Working Council.

            That’s off the top of my head. Further down there is more. Your opinions?

  19. Sabine 21

    above all we need to plant trees.
    it seems to me that we are hellbent on cutting down all the trees and shrubs to replace them with concreted over space.
    We need to plant trees, shrubs, leave areas to go wild.

    We can’t have wild life if we have no spaces for wilderness.

    • Robert Guyton 21.1

      Sabine – I try, and usually succeed, to plant at least one tree every day. Sometimes, I can do a run of 20 or more, then have a few days off, attending to other things, but over all, I reckon I do at least 365 a year. At night, when I’m dropping off to sleep, I smile to myself because of that. It may be foolish and simple, but I smile anyway.

      • Sabine 21.1.1

        i have a few trees on the garden house property that i bought two years ago.
        people on either side have cut down every single tree/shrub and build boat sheds and tin shed batches with air conditioning and sky tv.

        they, of course want me to cut down my trees – the view! -, especially the walnut tree. She got a good trim this year – we missed the pruning season the year before, and the lady who owned the property before me had not pruned the tree for about 10 years.

        I will never understand these people. They sit in their sheds, airconditioning on cause its too hot, there is no shade, and then they pull their boats up and down the country side to go for a ‘ride’.


        • Robert Guyton

          Don’t try. Let it (and them) go. When you are surrounded by disfunction, your primary responsibility is to maintain your own integrity and sense of self. Do what you believe. Look to your own world. Plant a tree (or a shrub, a vine, a herb, a vegetable). Side with Mother Nature. She’s gonna prevail, may as well be at her side 🙂

  20. joe90 22

    Dude with a plan ranks the top 100 solutions to climate change.

    Paul Hawken acknowledges that the subtitle of his latest book, Drawdown: The Most Comprehensive Plan Ever Proposed to Reverse Global Warming, is brash. But the author and entrepreneur says he can get away with it because the plan he and his collaborators put forward is the first and only of its kind.

    “We’ve never mapped, measured, and modeled the top solutions to global warming, after 40 years of this being in the public sphere,” he says in an interview with Yale Environment 360. With this plan, he contends, “we have in hand now, in a practical way, the solutions that are needed in order to reverse global warming.”


    The solutions are ranked by the number of gigatons of CO2, or the equivalent, that they would avoid or sequester between the years 2020 and 2050. They range from big difference-makers such as refrigerant management, wind turbines, and food waste to those that are important but not as impactful, including methane digesters, green roofs, and microgrids.

    When it comes to global warming, Hawken says, we’ve been “focusing too much on the problem instead of the solution…. Regenerative development is development, whether it’s on an urban, transportation, housing, marine agriculture, or health level. It’s development that actually heals the future as opposed to stealing from it, which is what we’re doing today.”



    edit: interview with the author


  21. greywarshark 23

    Just checking out how this post went – Puckish Rogue was up 16 times, with replies of 10 roughly, that were to unsuitable comments that didn’t match the kaupapa of the post. One was to say he liked something but the whole idea is to put up joined-up ideas, not do the usual right-wing troll stuff of firing off opinions.

    If you take out 20 as being extraneous, there has still been good fact-finding and discussion. Can we keep this weekly please moderators and Robert? Even if it is short, provided good stuff doesn’t get smothered by trolls we will keep finding gold in the seams.

    • Robert Guyton 23.1

      Good evening, greywarshark. It was a good day, I reckon, both here on TS and out in the real world 🙂
      Puckish has a roguish side, but let’s enjoy that – he’s respectful and helpful when met with honesty. I like his style (but trust him only as far as I can kick him 🙂 Sorry, Pucky, just joshin’)
      The kaupapa of this thread is … somewhat undefined, and should stay that way, I reckon, or we’ll be rightly accused of being overly righteous, or something like that. All in all, it’s great to hear from people with views diverse; it’s impossible, in this day and age, to strike a note that resonates with everyone – we’re spoiled by choice in our points of view and just have to try for something not too foolish, not to sincere, that others can chime in on. It would be good to see other, previously mute commenters posting here; perhaps we could award spot-prizes; I’ve seen blogs that send out “virtual bouquets” in response to well-favoured comments (let’s not do that 🙂
      Could we co-opt Pucky, DJ and Grafton Gully onto our management team (is there a management team??). Let’s break the mould and disempower ourselves, right from the get go! Who’s in charge of this show? Not me, I say.

      • Puckish Rogue 23.1.1

        Whats funny is that I actually thought about the post and I tried to come up with an idea that was:

        A. Not contentious, because I like the idea of the thread and didn’t want to, inadvertently, derail it nor take away anyones enjoyment of it

        B. Something that everyone would agree on, I mean I genuinely thought that NZ going free range is something we all would think was a good idea

        C. Something achievable, difficult sure but not out of the realms of possibility by any means and could lead onto other ideas

        D. Something that other countries would take up, sure it’d be first world countries at first but you gotta start somewhere

        Also putting me in charge would be a bad idea so I’ll have to decline the honor, I mean lets face it I’d probably end up being something like this:

        • WeTheBleeple

          Can’t please all the people all the time PR. I like your idea. But trying to politicise it as blue-green thinking is tired.

          So is the insistence by vegetarians we all join them.

          I didn’t get where I am today without hearing it all before…

          • Puckish Rogue

            Yeah I’ll take the blue-green out in future (though I still think thats the best way forward…)

            Interestingly though if more countries did go free range there’d be less meat available (and probably at higher prices) thereby “encouraging” people to eat more vegetables which can’t be a bad thing for peoples overall health…and the amount spent on health by the government

            • Robert Guyton

              Allowing us humans to range free would also be a good idea. We’re a very fenced-out, fenced-in society – why, we’ve even contained ourselves with electrified wires! You’d think we were in prison, or a detainment camp!
              What gives?
              Lack of trust, I reckon.

            • WeTheBleeple

              Part of the solution to eating less meat is education in culinary options. Let’s face it, we were godawful cooks before all the immigrants arrived. Over-boiled veg, mash and meat… The meat was the saving grace of such bland fare.

              Now we have many options that use far less, or even no meat, and taste world’s better than the culinary disaster zones that haunted most of our youths.

              If we cook better, we eat better. The government knows it can save a shit-ton on health if the population ate healthy. But does this align with the greeds of big pharma and big farmers? The sugar salesmen? The burger barons?

              Part of the reason solutions are hard to implement is we trip over our own feet trying to accommodate people who are not interested in all parties at the table, only their own. Sure you can have hamburger, but you can’t fill rivers with shit to make it.

              A better future definitely involves cleaning up agriculture. World class is right at our fingertips. Compromises will be required. Cowboys need to be come down on like a ton of bricks. We can’t convert the world to vegans, never will. We might lead the world in regenerative agriculture, we might help the planet tremendously.

              And the farmers might do very well for themselves when they stop blustering and get on with it. There’s plenty of reports of Farmers happy with what riparian planting has done for their properties. There’s plenty more benefits when they stop resisting and start enlisting. There’s a lot to cover but… Power, biodiversity, water, onsite production… mainly.

              Time to take ethics from the classrooms to the boardrooms. No more PR battles, no huge advertising budgets to cover your weaknesses. Strong products and strong market position. Lead by example. Copyright the lot and sell NZ know how and fine cuisine to the world.

              Grow better. Cook better. Eat Better. Live better.

              And save the planet I’m rather fond of it.

              • Robert Guyton

                It’s the sphere I prefer to move in.

                • Pat

                  a preference by default however

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Choices are limited, but in any case, I’m loyal to the Mother 🙂

                  • greywarshark

                    When it comes to a default setting for a life, those with money accept none. Firing rockets into space, thinking about Mars instead of our beautiful planet, they can’t stay on a default position; they are adventurers, all bown up by their own hubris, their own self-importance.

                    We who love admire and this place need to join and work together to conserve it in a livable state for all living on it, with respect for each other and be trustworthy with each other. And we do need a kaupapa – without one the way is open for a smiling assassin to come peddling himself, and his finagling friends, or a cult member with a mask of goodness and probity, or some authoritarian or manipulator who wants accolytes to follow him or her and doesn’t believe in trying for democracy, (applying probably to many in top positions in business).

                    Declaring what you believe in, keeping to the point of what you are prepared to do for a better future for all, not criticise others ideas and efforts and pass judgments. Also important is how you intend to work with other people, and with whom, and past efforts, is a good start. Easy peasy with no definites lets low types slide in unnoticed.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      “We who love admire and this place need to join and work together to conserve it in a livable state for all living on it, with respect for each other and be trustworthy with each other. ”
                      Amen, brother 🙂

              • Exkiwiforces

                Your motto of “Grow better. Cook better. Eat Better. Live better.” has sort of been used before during WW2 in GB and no doubt both in NZ and Australia during rationing. There is a good book called Eggs and Anarchy which I’m reading at and it’s about the “Lord Woolton and his Ministry of Food”, they also produced a cookbook and a number of other useful pamphlets/ booklets for household during rationing and avoid wasting food.

                The Cookbook produce by the Ministry of Food, is still in my mind (well I blame my NZ grandparents as they were still using it before they downsize the big old house in Nelson) is an essential book if we are going serious to CC and bring back horticulture classes in our primary schools.

                I’m in the process of tracking down a copy of this WW2 cookbook for my own information and try a number of recipes for shits and giggles.



                • greywarshark

                  Eggs or Anarchy
                  It is available from Australian supplier NZ$24.95,

                  Though I don’t think this is the cookbook you were talking about. However the story sounds interesting. The business about how he battled against the Brit system just to do his job, and because he was a grammar school boy apparently didn’t have the right lines of influence. It sounds what Dowding had to put up with also. The embedded standing of upper class is hard to deal with – ‘you’re not one of us’.

                  • Exkiwiforces

                    It’s worth reading the book, as there is similar parallels with what happened in WW2 and the possibility/ assumptions IRT CC and food, arable land and water security issues into the future in particular to NZ and it’s trading partners in the Asia/ Pacific region.

                    To understand the future, we must understand our past.

                    I’m going to try uncle google and a couple book search engines over the Christmas period for that particular cookbook.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  That’s really interesting. I wondered how they mobilised gardeners on a grand scale considering many were previously not gardeners. A simple book, some sense of need and community….

                  I’d be interested to see the book for sure. Partly out of curiosity as to the methods suggested. We’ve made a huge mess letting our so called professionals on the land, but I think that publication was before the chemists took over gardening.

                  No book budget right now, already spending close to 2 grand this year on further education, that’ll be around 76K so far… Business people like to waffle on about investing in themselves (training and education). I’m not doing that. I’m investing in helping the planet. There are many ways people could invest in themselves that doesn’t involve feeding cash to the engine crippling us.

                  Like buying fruit trees, preserving jars, cook books, a garden course, a clothes line…

                  I digress.

                  I have made it a habit of reading old gardening books. Despite being on a budget this book seems rather iconic, and is now on my radar. Thanks for pointing it out.

                  Today, how do we help restore community? This is definitely not my forte…

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Second-hand book shops are often weighed-down with old-school gardening books, manuals on pruning and grafting, volumes on enhancing your soil and so on. Very different from the coffee table editions that are published these days. Anyone in the South will benefit from owning a copy of The Star Garden Guide, a compilation of articles published seasonally in the Otago Daily Times decades ago, by a garden writer who knew his onions.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    How to build/restore a community?
                    That is my, or at least our, forte. Are you suggesting a concerted effort to explore ideas on this (it’d make a great “main topic” for next week’s “How to get there” or are you thinking to talk about it here at the tail end of last Sunday’s thread?

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      It’s a conversation I’d like to learn from.

                      My concern is that people under duress can go into bolthole mode rather than band together. A bolthole can only delay the inevitable shortages if the system collapses or even under duress. Water, power, food, these can’t be taken for granted. But a stash of batteries, bottles and dried goods only gets you so far. Every man for himself is doomed to fail.

                      Addressing concerns over basics (food, power, water) alleviates planetary problems considerably – if done correctly, but requires a lot of cooperative community.

                      Sharing of equipment, crop types, harvests, skills, resources. What things does a village need today that it doesn’t have anymore?

                      I’d love to see community brought up as a fresh topic come the weekend, there’s a lot to re-learn.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Cool, lets do it.
                      We’ve plans for a wind powered sawmill – the circular space is already cleared down to the clay, we’ve the paper plans (old Dutch) and an experienced mill-repairer on-site, who specialises in wooden gears. Plus we have a source of organic grain and bakers experienced in making loaves from organic grains, including the ancient and difficult spelts etc. As well, we’ve an architect passionate about building big brick ovens for the baking of bread, so when the stars all align, we’ll be in business. Oh, and a distribution network in the pipeline; the Longwood Loop, that’ll transport goods like fresh-baked bread, around the small towns of Western Southland; electric truck with 2 volunteer drivers already and potential funds for 3/4 of the purchase price. Plus some other stuff 🙂 Plus a son who’s a saw miller now, sets the blades etc. Plus macrocarpa.

                  • Exkiwiforces

                    Back in my younger days I did a Combat and Survival Course which covered Sea, Desert/ Arid and my favourite Jungle/ Sub- Tropical Rainforest. The 3 principles the DS drill into us was Shelter, Fire and water without these 3, you had bugger all chance of survival especially water as you need clean water to treat wounds and diegest food.

                    If you haven’t notice by now with some of my posts over the yrs I have a common tend IRT to Food, Arable Land and Water Security. These 3 are going to get more important in the coming yrs IRT CC when the most likely and must dangerous assumptions become fact and our trading partners find themselves at war and our supply lines become degraded as a result of conflict. Remember you can’t eat coal or drink oil.

                    Getting back to my post last night, my grandparents said there are two books that you must have, a good gardening book and the Edmonds Cookbook. I’ve added a third to that list and that’s Loffy Wiseman’s SAS Survival Handbook. But would love to get my hands on the Ministry of Food’s WW 2 cookbook for some ideas. As I do live in hostile environment during the cyclone season.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      The ArchDruid was posting a series on his website called “Green Wizardry” or something like that, that encouraged every reader to do as you suggest, xkf; get smart about the vitals and practice, gather and connect. He’s right and you are right.

                    • Exkiwiforces

                      You are right Robert,

                      We need to get working as collective and reintroduce certain activities like school gardens, horticulture teaching at primary school, Civic teaching, school camps and WEA classes in what has been discussed here.

                      Government at all levels has to get involved in strategic planning in food, arable land, and water security. The other is explaining / strategic planning the general public the relationship between CC, Trade, Defence, Civil Defence, International Aid, Environment, and Primary industry. One other thing I want to say we need to re-establish the MoW (more as a directorate than building stuff) and DSIR.

                      Mr Shaw and old Ronnie have started the process, but it appears that other Government Ministers and other Departments don’t appear to be onboard atm. I’m starting to wonder that certain people and departments are playing short term politics/ short term planning instead at looking at the big picture which is required atm. As I see it the moment we (the nation, the planet) is about to cross the LD, or as we use to call it the point of no return as the plant is slowly getting to that point and when it happens things it’s going to unravel very fast. That I know from experience as a half ass plan is better, than no plan.

                      Here’s the Defence Plan for CC and it’s worth the read especially the threat matrix.


                    • Robert Guyton

                      “a half ass plan is better than no plan.”
                      I like that.
                      Your plan has some structure and pretty clear objectives. Here on TS, where individuals might be reading for guidance as to “how to get there” I’d like to see (and am seeing, on occasion), sound, useful ideas presented that a person could adopt and begin to practice, such as setting up water-storage at home, etc. Beyond that would come “small community” ideas that a circle of friends or a neighbourhood could use to improve their resilience in the face of change, then on to larger communities and so on, till we’re talking about districts, regions, islands, countries. It’s difficult, in gathering ideas, not to create soup, a mish-mash of great stuff, churning in a gyre of enthusiasm, that becomes nothing but an entertainment and a vague memory as the next thread (“Simon Bridges said”…) appears. But, as you so elegantly said,
                      “a half ass plan is better than no plan”.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      A half assed plan. hell yes, we are lost without purpose and saving the planet is a good one.

                      ‘The meaning of life is to find a purpose worthy of supporting a life, in that manner we become purposeful’ – Nietzsche paraphrased badly.

                      Recurring themes of importance keep rising up, and I’ll keep pushing those I can help with when/as I can.

                      Food, water, power, community (security).

                      It is interesting the defense document repeats stressing corrupt governance as a problem when dealing with climate change. As their focus is relatively local they aint talking about Trump.

                      Waiting for Government to come save us may be our greatest folly ever. We can hope they do, in the interim, it’s always been us rolling our sleeves up and mucking in.

                      “sound, useful ideas presented that a person could adopt and begin to practice, such as setting up water-storage at home, etc. Beyond that would come “small community” ideas that a circle of friends or a neighbourhood could use to improve their resilience in the face of change, then on to larger communities and so on, till we’re talking about districts, regions, islands, countries”

                      We can also work to illustrate how an individuals actions scale up over community, region, etc so as to effect change.

                      A whole lot of rain tanks could greatly alleviate storm water systems – and thus river and oceanic pollution. A bunch of rain gardens could alleviate storm water systems and water supplies; stabilise waterways and hydro power; reduce food transport; create cooling micro-climates….

                      A whole lot of cooling micro-climates…

                    • Exkiwiforces

                      It’s interesting that you and Robert have mentioned water tanks for the home. I have a 15,000lt water tank that collects rain water of the roof of my Bach and I haven’t ran out of water yet, but I know of few people have run towards the tail end of the dry season especially when we have had two good wet seasons.

                      This years wet is looking to a dry wet atm, which is starting to concern a few people atm. Darwin City should’ve had at least 200mm by now, but has only had less than 10mm atm. I live in the Darwin rural area (about 30mins Sth of Darwin) where I should have at least 250-300mm by now, but I only about 25mm in the rain gauge. My well pump doesn’t have power it atm and I’ve had or look at bring forward my water storage tanks for my tank hanger (20m x 9m shed), but at least the solar is now on with room to expand to a total of grid system if the feed in tariff heads south.

  22. WeTheBleeple 24

    A lot of people may by now be interested in sustainable gardens of their own. But starting may be a bit daunting.

    The best place is right at your doorstep. The traditional plot people dig way down the back is just too far to pick that sprig of parsley or rosemary, and as it’s so far that plot soon gets ignored. Then it’s a problem instead of a solution. Close to the house you are close to the kitchen. Morning greens, lunchtime salads, evening herbs… these are the type of plants you’d frequent frequently if they were convenient. The plants you don’t attend so often get placed further out. Pumpkins, potatoes, corn…

    Herbs and greens right at the doorstep. That’s where you start.

    This is the Permaculture concept of zoning. Systems work far better when their parts are in relation to each other.

    We’re actually into convenience 😀

    • Robert Guyton 24.1

      And there are always sprouts in jars, right there on the kitchen bench or table! Sprouts are quick-as and highly nutritious.

  23. Jenny - How to get there? 25

    How to get there?

    Break the “gridlock”

    Scientists call for ‘unprecedented’ action. But the global climate talks aren’t built for that.
    Griff Witte and Brady Dennis – December 16, 2018

    The world will “not survive if business goes as usual”, climate change negotiators say, but 200 countries are still in gridlock.

    English Prime Minister Winston Churchill took unilateral action and waged uncompromising warfare on fascism at home and abroad.

    Churchill didn’t wait until the League Of Nations all agreed, assessing the threat he took unilateral action and by doing so challenged all other nations to follow his lead.

    New Zealand’s anti-Churchill, John Key, abrogated all leadership on climate change, instead actively promoted the sychophantic “fast follower’ doctrine.

    Simpley put;

    New Zealand needs to become the first country to declare war on climate change.

    • Jenny - How to get there? 25.1

      P.S. Churchill wasn’t the British Prime Minister that declared war on Germany. (That historic duty fell to Neville Chamberlain, followed by a period known as the Phoney War)

      It was Churchill who prosecuted it.

  24. Robert Guyton 26

    “New Zealand needs to become the first country to declare war on climate change.”

    • Jenny - How to get there? 26.1

      The first step to making such a historic declaration would be for the Climate Change Minister to call an all party conference on climate change. Inviting leaders of all political parties and relevant civil society organisations to take part. Leading up to a vote on the issue.

      • Jenny - How to get there? 26.1.1

        P.S. The dance between leadership and people is a subtle one. Get too far ahead and you become isolated. (And irrelevant).

        Get too far behind, and you give up leadership.

      • solkta 26.1.2

        What exactly would they vote on? Creating a Climate Commission perhaps? Oh wait..

        • Jenny - How to get there?

          solkta 26.1.2
          17 December 2018 at 7:15 pm
          What exactly would they vote on? Creating a Climate Commission perhaps?….

          Yeah…. Nah

          • solkta

            So what then???

            • Jenny - How to get there?

              So what when???????

              • solkta

                The first step to making such a historic declaration would be for the Climate Change Minister to call an all party conference on climate change. Inviting leaders of all political parties and relevant civil society organisations to take part. Leading up to a vote on the issue.

                What would they vote on? Since it is your idea i thought you might know??

          • Jenny - How to get there?

            What’s democratic about a climate commission?

            Speaking personally, I can’t see how a climate commission could build consensus.

            But, now that you mention it. What actually would be the purpose of such a body?

  25. Jenny - How to get there? 27

    The Commission has two main functions:

    Expert advice: The Commission will advise the Government on targets and policies to put New Zealand on track to zero carbon.

    Independent watchdog: The Commission will hold the Government to account by publishing progress reports and highlighting problems.


    What the hell!

    Makes you wonder what the purpose of these other government advisory science bodies are?

    Office of the Prime Minister’s Science Advisory Committee, New Zealand

    Our Science Board

    At least the above government bodies are made up of actual scientists, instead of non-scientist bureaucrats and failed career wannabe politicos, which are likely to make up the Climate Commission.

    At best the Climate Commission will be just repeating the scientific advice that the government already gets from the scientists that already advise it.
    [scientific advice that was regularly ignored by the last government].

    At worst it will be just another powerless bureaucratic waste of time and money.

    Quangos are worthless and wasteful foes of democracy

    The Government’s attitude towards quangos is similar to a medieval doctor’s to leeches – whatever the problem, whether it’s obesity, teenage pregnancy or regional disparity, it creates a quango, and the problem gets worse.

    One of the best (or worst) examples illustrating the phenomenon is that of the Regional Development Agencies (RDAs), with their strangely grating names such as Advantage West Midlands and Yorkshire Forward. So far these bodies have spent £15 billion on reducing the inequalities between the South-East and the rest of the UK and yet, since their creation, the gap has widened and the economic output of these poorer regions has fallen further behind.

    What’s the bet, that despite the creation of a Climate Commission, our emissions keep going up?

    Five reasons why quangos fail

    This is not leadership.

    This abrogation of leadership.

    And as such, is doomed to failure.

    • solkta 27.1

      Oh well, at least you can say you know what it is now.

      So what was your idea again, declare war on the USA?

      • Jenny - How to get there? 27.1.1

        Personally I don’t know solkta, how you can equate declaring war on climate change with declaring war on the world’s leading hegemonic power.

        Care to expand on this for us?

        Maybe you have a point.
        Maybe the US would see this, as declaring war on them, and launch some sort of counter attack (not necessarily military), against New Zealand. (or for that matter any other country that tried to take serious action on climate change).

        See Bannon, for going for the Head wound etc. @ 27.2.1

        If so, I think we should be prepared to take those licks.

        • solkta

          Declaring war is a formal thing that one country does to the another to formally let them know that a state of war exists between the two countries. You can’t “declare war” on the climate.

          • Jenny - How to get there?

            You can’t “declare war” on the climate.


            We are already waging an undeclared war on the climate.

            What I am advocating is war on climate change.

            • Robert Guyton

              Jenny – wars generally cause a great deal of harm to both sides – is there another “un-warlike” way of describing what you want to have happen? Language is important, and using the language of the “tribe” that got us in this mess (that’s us) narrows the possibilities for change – maybe we should re-title our intention, using language the war-mongers haven’t already appropriated…

              • Jenny - How to get there?

                – is there another “un-warlike” way of describing what you want to have happen?

                Robert Guyton

                If you can think of a better analogy I would like to hear it

                60 million people were ‘killed’ in World War II, humanity’s deadliest conflict. The number of people who will be killed by climate change will dwarf that figure.


                Our society is in conflict with nature.

                War is the perfect analogy to what we are doing to the climate.

                War is also the perfect analogy of the sort of society wide reorganisation and mobilisation needed to beat climate change

                Individual acts of recycling and cutting back, no matter how self sacrificing or even heroic, by themselves will never be enough.

                We can declare war on drugs

                We can declare war on crime

                We can declare war on poverty

                But we can’t declare war on climate change?

                Why not?

                With human beings, perception is everything.

                War is the most serious undertaking. It is never declared lightly because doing so, commits us to act.


                We’re under attack from climate change—and our only hope is to mobilize like we did in WWII.
                By BILL MCKIBBEN
                August 15, 2016

                In the North this summer, a devastating offensive is underway. Enemy forces have seized huge swaths of territory; with each passing week, another 22,000 square miles of Arctic ice disappears. Experts dispatched to the battlefield in July saw little cause for hope, especially since this siege is one of the oldest fronts in the war. “In 30 years, the area has shrunk approximately by half,” said a scientist who examined the onslaught. “There doesn’t seem anything able to stop this.”

                In the Pacific this spring, the enemy staged a daring breakout across thousands of miles of ocean, waging a full-scale assault on the region’s coral reefs. In a matter of months, long stretches of formations like the Great Barrier Reef—dating back past the start of human civilization and visible from space—were reduced to white bone-yards.

                Day after day, week after week, saboteurs behind our lines are unleashing a series of brilliant and overwhelming attacks. In the past few months alone, our foes have used a firestorm to force the total evacuation of a city of 90,000 in Canada, drought to ravage crops to the point where southern Africans are literally eating their seed corn, and floods to threaten the priceless repository of art in the Louvre. The enemy is even deploying biological weapons to spread psychological terror: The Zika virus, loaded like a bomb into a growing army of mosquitoes, has shrunk the heads of newborn babies across an entire continent; panicked health ministers in seven countries are now urging women not to get pregnant. And as in all conflicts, millions of refugees are fleeing the horrors of war, their numbers swelling daily as they’re forced to abandon their homes to escape famine and desolation and disease.

                World War III is well and truly underway. And we are losing.

                • Robert Guyton

                  That’s very passionate, Jenny and of course you can characterise the issue however you choose to. I’m wondering though if you are declaring war on the wrong enemy; climate changers rather than what they cause might be a better focus. Climate changers are people (cows too, but they are our agents of change and haven’t intentionally multiplied themselves, we have to take responsibility for that). If you accept that, then you are declaring war on people , which doesn’t sit well with …people. Perhaps your war should be waged on behaviour as much as anything else – a war on climate changing behaviour, or at least the kinds of behaviour that cause greenhouse gases to emit to the atmosphere (some climate changing behaviour could be considered good in that it slows, halts or reverses the warming – such as putting particulates into the air; ask, dust etc; though there are other problems caused there). It seems to me that the deep battle, the one Sun Tsu would engage in, is with our culture; our being the civilised world that feeds on farmed food. We are the climate changers and our culture is the source of our behaviour. As someone has said, “We have met the enemy and he is us”

                  • Jenny - How to get there?

                    He aha te mea nui o te ao
                    He tangata, he tangata, he tangata

                    What is the most important thing in the world?
                    It is people, it is people, it is people

                    …….you are declaring war on people….

                    Robert Guyton

                    Only if you consider corporations people


                    As one wag once said, “I’ll believe a corporation is a person when Texas executes one”

                    You believe individual lifestyle choices and cultural change are the solution to climate change. (Please tell me if I am wrong).

                    I believe that this approach lets the real polluters off the hook

                    Ever since the climate change issue was first raised, in the ’90s it was posed as a cultural, lifestyle problem. A deep moral failing by individuals and the choices we make. “it is all your fault”. “You are the ones doing all this. The “you” of course, meaning, “we the people”, “It is your greed”, “It is your selfishness”, “It is your fault”.”You” “You, YOU!

                    It is all terribly dispiriting.

                    And that is its purpose.

                    To prevent us as people taking collective action against the big polluters.

                    I’ll repeat,

                    As I see it, the purpose of this sort of propaganda is to demobilise and demotivate, us the people, against taking the necessary action against these big institutional polluters.

                    Yes I could possibly quit my job, and if I had enough money, move to the country and live sustainably, But that will not stop the huge corporations pouring filth into the skies. It will not discourage the industries that make huge profits from pollution and waste. It will make little difference to the tens of thousands of others with less freedom of choice than myself, who have to grit their teeth,and drive their ICE vehicles to work through the misery of our clogged city’ motorways, so as to be able to make rent.

                    These are matters that can only be addressed by public policy. For instance, instead of government ploughing billions into new motorways, putting the money into public transport instead.

                    The coming national ban on single use plastic bags is an example. Myself and other  individuals deciding not to use plastic bags did not put an end to the disgusting ocean of waste pouring out of the factories of the manufacturers of these products. And I do not know enough of the life circumstances of others to condemn them for their use of these products.

                    This type of pollution can only be ended by public policy and regulation.
                    These are systemic problems that can not be addressed by making individual lifestyle or cultural choices.

                    The same with deep sea oil exploration, it was the Prime MInister who was moved by Greenpeace protests to announce no more new oil and gas exploration permits will be given out.

                    No amount of individual personal lifestyle choices would have achieved that victory.

                    Yes some people with the resources to do so, could as individuals, choose to make individual heroic lifestyle changes. which income and position in life allows them.

                    But the vast majority of of us have lesser choices. Unless public policy changes. What we would choose as individuals is mostly wishful thinking. We have to get whatever jobs we can, and we have to get to work by whatever means necessary to feed our family, and pay our bills. And we will drive our ICE car to work when there is no other affordable option, not because we choose to, but because we have to.

                    Disclosure: I don’t own a car. And in my own time I use public transport. But my job requires me to navigate the city in a company vehicle, every working day of the year. This is not a matter of lifestyle choice but of necessity.

                    I have asked you in an earlier thread whether you believe in regulation.

                    You did not reply.

    • solkta 27.2

      At least the above government bodies are made up of actual scientists, instead of non-scientist bureaucrats and failed career wannabe politicos, which are likely to make up the Climate Commission.

      Now i’m thinking you didn’t think to click on the “read more” bits:

      Composition of the Climate Commission

      The Climate Commission will consist of between six and ten experts appointed by Parliament. They will have expertise in a range of areas, including climate science, technology and agriculture. The Act will also require the Climate Commission to build and maintain meaningful partnership with iwi.

      Parliament must appoint Climate Commissioners with the aim of ensuring that the Commission, as a whole, has expertise in the following areas:

      Agricultural science and practices.

      Business competitiveness.

      Climate and environmental science.

      Climate change policy, and in particular the social impacts of climate change policy, including public health.

      Economic analysis and forecasting.

      Emissions trading.

      Energy production and supply.

      Financial investment.

      Industry policy and labour markets.

      Te Tiriti o Waitangi, tikanga Māori, and Māori interests.

      Technology development and diffusion.

      The Chair of the Climate Commission will be appointed first, and must be consulted about subsequent appointments.

      The Commission is able to employ staff and establish sub-committees to fulfil its functions. Members of sub-committees are not required to be members of the Climate Commission. For example, the UK’s Committee on Climate Change includes an Adaptation Sub-Committee responsible for preparing advice about climate risks and adaptation measures. The New Zealand Climate Commission could establish sub-committees to prepare focussed advice on issues such as adaptation, agricultural emissions, or the social impact of climate policies.

      • Jenny - How to get there? 27.2.1

        We shall see.

        Like most Quangos it starts with lofty ambitions, and then get bogged down in bureaucracy, and huge salaries being paid for little return

        The Climate Commission is only an advisory body.

        And it begs the question. What about the other government scientific bodies already advising the government in this area?

        Will their advice be contrary, or the same?

        If it’s the same, will they be disbanded?

        If it’s contrary, which advice will have priority?

        The Climate Commission has no power to act. This is its greatest weakness. And like all such quangos, why the trajectory of its arc is depressingly predictable.

        And let’s face it, the government don’t need another advisory body, government Ministers already know the facts, If they didn’t, they would be less convinced of the threat, that climate change poses, than the general public.

        Kiwis overwhelmingly think New Zealand should take action on climate change even if other nations don’t – and few believe humanity will do what’s needed to escape the worst impacts.

        That’s been indicated by a new survey one leading climate scientist says is a blunt message that people want leadership on the issue…..


        There it is again, leadership, the missing ingredient.

        No need to throw it back to a advisory quango.

        The scientists are naming it, even the majority of the people are calling for it.

        But for some reason,, like rabbits caught in the headlights of an approaching juggernaut, those we count on and vote for to provide leadership seem frightened to act.

        Greta Thunberg put it best when she said “….the only sensible thing to do is pull on the emergency brake”.

        We all know what needs to be done.

        Instead of importing ever more private ICE cars. We need to stop their importation altogether,

        Instead of building more motorways, we need to switch that $10 billion or so, into public transport, trains, and buses.

        Instead of opening new coal mines, and expanding existing ones, we should be closing them down.

        We need to cancel all permits for new oil and gas exploration. Not just stop issuing new ones.

        We need to fully electrify the main trunk line.

        To get trucks off the road, we need to double track the Northland line.

        We need to put in place the “policy settings” that Eric Pyle says will make wind energy, competitive with coal energy.

        The solutions are there ready to be picked up.

        Sure there will be a reaction, and probably a fierce one, reaction is triumphing over sensible social and environmental policy wherever you look all over the world..

        As Steve Bannon explained to Mike Moore, ” it’s very simple — we go for the head wound and your side has pillow fights.”

        • solkta

          There is no government body that gives advice on all those areas simultaneously. You might think that you know what needs to happen but National certainly doesn’t.

        • greywarshark

          Jenny,,,There you aren’t
          You are talking about what politicians should be doing, how government should be organised etc. This from you belongs to one of the discussion posts or Open Mike, where it can be debated and discussed. A post has been set up around Greta’s speech. This isn’t a personal idea for the future, it’s a klist of regularly presented arguments for change of the present set-up.

          What is new in your post? If there is somesuch can you give us more detail about it and the detail of how you suggest we should go ahead with just one of the items on your list?

          • Jenny - How to get there?

            18 December 2018 at 8:26 am
            Jenny,,,There you aren’t
            You are talking about what politicians should be doing, how government should be organised etc…..

            ……What is new in your post? If there is somesuch can you give us more detail about it and the detail of how you suggest we should go ahead with just one of the items on your list?


            Hi Grey, your criticism is fair. The list, that I provided, above, is what could rightfully be called a ‘Wish List’.

            Very similar in many respects to the ‘Wish List’ that you yourself forwarded, last week.

            The Future Is …

            And fair enough, just like your wish list, my wish list also did not include any detail on how enact any of it. This weakness is common to wish lists. And the Left has been rightly criticised for continually compiling such wish lists with no workings to show how to achieve them.

            But in this case I am more than willing to detail how we should go about achieving at least one item on my list.

            In my defence I only provided this list, to show that we don’t need an expensive overpaid quango to advise us what needs to be done. (Look I did it for free).

            We all know, what needs to be done.

            And just like 15 year old Greta Thunberg

            We all know, it is not being done.

            And I can guarantee that my wishlist or your wishlist or whatever the Climate Commission come up with all have about the same chance of being listened to.

            An action plan for ending coal is one of the things on my list that I have determined to be the most important thing that we can achieve.And one of the most achievable.

            I and others intend to make a political issue of the cancellation of the Hauauru Ma Raki Windfarm  at the back of Huntly, contrasted with the planned major expansion of the Rotowaro Coal Mine in the same region.This will be a broad spectrum campaign involving both protest and occupation of the mine site, plus community and union outreach, plus lobbying of MPs to put in place the “policy settings” that would make the windfarm more  competitive than the coal mine.

            Coal generates only 5% of our electricity.
            Restarting Hauauru Ma Raki would likely see the end of Huntly Power station, and the Rotowaru coal mine, wihile at the same time providing 1,000 permanent jobs for the community of Huntly.

            Politics is all about pressure. Currently all the political pressure is coming from the deeply entrenched fossil fuel lobby to continue with business as usual..

            To get any real hope of change, mass counter pressure needs to come from below.

            What’s wrong with this picture?

            This is big picture stuff

            We must set an example

            • greywarshark

              You are great at watching the politicians and keeping a check on the powerful and telling everyone what is going on.

              Can you also look for things that have been done successfully that will help us to have as a community, a resilient future. I am a little tired of exhortations about politicians as the be-all and often end-all. We have to learn to walk and chew gum at the same time, to use that trite cliche’ that is so catchy, and apt.

              You say we must set an example so you agree with what I have just put up. So feed us the titbits about successful small projects, and the broad details and links to indivdiual’s and community’s rational and forward-looking ideas that respect both man and beast and earth. Then we will have a feeling of balance and that will allay the anxiety we feel which is wasted energy which can be turned to practical endeavour.

              • Jenny - How to get there?

                “Can you also look for things that have been done successfully that will help us to have as a community, a resilient future…”


                I have reported in depth on the successful campaign to shut down the Mangatangi coal mine, the campaign against the Te Kuha Coal mine expansion onto conservation land. I have held up these examples of what can be achieved by protest and pressure from below on politicians and corporations.

                I have pointed out how the high profile Greenpeace protests against deep sea oil exploration were pivotal in giving the Prime Minister the political room, (against stiff industry opposition), for her ban on issuing new oil and gas exploration permits.

                Against this. I think, it’s up to you, to look for things that have been “done successfully”, from your point of view. “that will help us to have as a community, a resilient future”.

                And put them up here.


                You say we must set an example so you agree with what I have just put up.


                Hi Grey, What is it that you have you “just put up”?

                I can’t find it.

                I have scrolled up and down this thread. But couldn’t spot it. And the search function for this site seems to have been disabled.

                Is it on another thread?

                Help me out here.

          • Jenny - How to get there?

            18 December 2018 at 8:26 am
            Jenny,,,There you aren’t
            You are talking about what politicians should be doing, how government should be organised etc. …..

            That is not what I am saying at all. If that is what you think, then you have misread me.

            What I am saying is how we as people can and should mobilise ourselves to pressure our political leaders to do the right thing.

            My model is the anti-nuclear ship movement.

            This breakthrough policy was achieved mostly by people acting in concert to protest nuclear ships. Protests so large and powerful that they influenced the political discourse.

            The key takeaway message is that it is up to us.

            You me everybody to join together, and (in the words of Greta Thunberg), pull the emergency brake, if necessary by throwing our bodies on the levers that are engines of pollution, the oil exploration ships and new coal mine operations. Only this sort of mass protest action can make climate change the political issue it needs to be.

            I, and I suspect you, do not have the resources to make a real difference as individuals. No matter how many lifestyle projects we put our efforts into.

            These in my opinion time and life wasting diversions.

            We need a society wide response that will liberate the resources that will make such projects viable and widescale.

            • greywarshark

              Jenny – How to get there..
              Jenny you are thinking all the time how to advance us on a better path. But I am thinking, and this is just me, but I think shared by others as to how to get an alternative economy going, perhaps as a sub-set of the main economy, but certainly as a basic working model of how we want to live.

              The middle-class Labour politicians and the ephemeral class of Treasury economists (who don’t live in a real world but one they have devised in a class for creative thinkers), had the idea of making the peeps pull their socks up, work harder and stop thinking that life is for enjoyment.

              So they got us into neo liberal economics, and the freemarket so we didn’t get caught out again relying on one market as we had with the UK and dairy. Then Helen Clark took the thoughtful step of linking up with Mainland China and now we are dependent on them. Half the National Party are in bed with the Mainland and HongKong Chinese and half Labour are ? perhaps working for tech corporates.

              We are trying to scavenge a life from the wreck they have left after a sort of political earthquake. The politicians are so compromised by the various factions they have been influenced by, that most of them have to phone their mothers in the mornings when they wake to remind them whom they started out as.

              We have to work out ways of doing things for ourselves and then try to influence the powers that be to get things going, or see if we can be our own private equity organisation. Government has so many limiting concepts, that just when something was going successfully, some over-whelming concept would intervene and the entity would have to be dismantled. Because.

              This post will tell us if NZs have any spirit left to be good, capable people with a sense of companionship within the country and community. Have we the ability to think things out intelligently and do them ourselves; both do good things, and decide against doing certain things that only had a gloss of immediate good, but would be deleterious in the long run, and require too much expenditure which could instead be invested in two smaller and productive, or experimental projects. Together we could do it, but there has to be thinking all the way, and discussion, and gathering facts and thinking and discussion again, and plans and time lines.

              There isn’t time to think about what politicians might do, if only they could be persuaded. And remember that private enterprise don’t want government to succeed. They will play government like a game fish, pull it in, and cut it open. They want the people to turn away from government as inefficient, they will paint government as wastrels, inefficient, corrupt, irresponsible etc. They have only themselves to look at for appropriate criticism, but government is bound to lose as there is so much money to be milked from the public for private ventures. Government and politicians will just be overwhelmed. Government can never be so slippery and defend itself, as well as get the work the country needs done, it is a sitting duck.

              So please all, put new ideas forward to help us over these next 10-20 years which will go like a flash, with small disasters to be recovered from occurring regularly. Note householders in Kaikoura have been waiting two years to get back into their homes, or get completion. We can’t cope with them quickly. We can’t even finish in Christchurch. The country is under a malign control from the money-men, the mini aristocrats that want to rule us all. Expect little, and you will not be disappointed.

              • Jenny - How to get there?

                “You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: victory; victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival.”

                “Expect little, and you will not be disappointed.”

                Follow the second path, and it is not ‘little’ you can expect, but extinction.

                UN Says Climate Genocide Is Coming. It’s Actually Worse Than That.
                David Wallace-Wells, Inteligencer, October 10, 2018

                …..if current trends continue. Nearly all coral reefs would die out, wildfires and heat waves would sweep across the planet annually, and the interplay between drought and flooding and temperature would mean that the world’s food supply would become dramatically less secure. Avoiding that scale of suffering, the report says, requires such a thorough transformation of the world’s economy, agriculture, and culture that “there is no documented historical precedent.” The New York Times declared that the report showed a “strong risk” of climate crisis in the coming decades; in Grist, Eric Holthaus wrote that “civilization is at stake.”

                If you are alarmed by those sentences, you should be — they are horrifying. But it is, actually, worse than that — considerably worse. That is because the new report’s worst-case scenario is, actually, a best case. In fact, it is a beyond-best-case scenario. What has been called a genocidal level of warming is already our inevitable future. The question is how much worse than that it will get.

                “….I am thinking, and this is just me, but I think shared by others as to how to get an alternative economy going, perhaps as a sub-set of the main economy, but certainly as a basic working model of how we want to live.”

                Been done and failed.

                In October1974, the Labour Government announced the establishment of the ohu scheme for groups of New Zealand citizens willing to set up alternative communities or settlements in rural areas. Prime Minister Kirk said that the reasons for it were mainly spiritual and social- to reconnect people to the land and to give them a chance to develop alternative social models to everyday New Zealand society.

                He saw the kibbutz type environment as a possible antidote “to the ills of modern society, as well as a means of showing people the virtues of a simpler life.” (Hayward 1981 p.173 ) For Norman Kirk, a politician who knew the value of manual labour, the scheme had a strong therapuetic bent for participants as well as for the larger society.


                What has been done, and has succeeded, are not alternative parallel schemes, but mass protest movements that influence and change government policy.

                You say above that we should look for good news stories.

                “Can you also look for things that have been done successfully that will help us to have as a community, a resilient future…”

                And I have put up examples of good news stories coming from my perspective. (Anti-nuclear, anti-apartheid, Mangatangi, Te Kuha, ban on new oil and gas exploration permits)

                And I have challenged you to put up good news stories coming from your perspective.

                You haven’t yet.

  26. greywarshark 28

    This from Open Mike 7/12/18 is a ‘set’ of discussions on the government greening plan that is worth capturing for archiving I think. Hope this is okay. But as i said,good stuff.

    Part of Jenny’s original comment at 1:
    (I have left a political anecdote out.)

    ‘…James Shaw, and Jacinda Ardern announce $100 million Green Initiative package.that includes major protections for fossil fuel electricity generators.

    Hidden in the package is a total stricture against investing in any new electricity generation that might hurt the Huntly Coal fired power plant, or other fossil fuel generators.

    No wonder, no one is talking about it.’

    Dennis Frank 1.2
    7 December 2018 at 7:22 am

    “The new entity – called Green Investment Finance Limited – is being set up with an aim of lowering New Zealand’s greenhouse gas emissions. It will operate independently from government, and be “market responsive and commercially focused.” Such a fund was posed by the former Green Party co-leader Russel Norman, and taken up by the current co-leader James Shaw who re-announced it as party policy at the Greens’ conference last year.” https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/377540/new-100m-green-fund-launched-by-government

    “It was then secured as part of the Labour-Green Party confidence and supply agreement during coalition negotiations. The government’s putting a $100 million start-up injection into the fund, which it intends to invest with business in low emissions industries.”

    “”New Zealand Green Investment Finance will be a commercially focused investment company which will work to invest with business to reduce emissions while making a profit,” said Mr Shaw in his role as Climate Change Minister. Green Investment Finance would be chaired by Cecilia Tarrant, who has a background in dry stock farming and over 20 years’ experience in international banking and finance, according to Bloomberg.”

    This strikes me as intelligent design, catering for blue-green thinking, and I can’t see why it will not become a bipartisan institution and a foundation for our transition to a sustainable future. Yeah, climate change will proceed regardless, but better to have some kind of life-raft than nothing.

    Incognito 1.2.1
    7 December 2018 at 7:37 am

    A $100 million start-up injection into the fund might help to influence the “blue-green thinking” into stronger hues of green.

    It effectively has two different goals, which do not sit comfortably together.

    As well as boosting funds flowing into projects which cut the carbon footprint of the New Zealand economy, it also tasked with turning a profit.

    This could create a conflict, not because green technology is inherently unprofitable, but because the company is meant to act as a means to boost projects which the market is failing to back.


    Wayne 1.3
    7 December 2018 at 7:32 am


    Yes, you are right that the fund is not about new electrical generation tech. But that limitation won’t be about protecting Huntly. That plant is in the last third of its life. It will be closed by 2030.

    I imagine the main reason is that large scale electrical generation is hugely capital intensive. $100 million is much better used for small and medium enterprises.

    The limitation on electrical generation does not exclude small scale clean electricity, so may well benefit new tech in home generation for instance.

    Incognito 1.3.1
    7 December 2018 at 7:38 am

    Good comment.
    7 December 2018 at 8:54 am

    $100M doesn’t get you a heck of a lot of generation. Makara Wind Farm alone would have been multiple times that

    Dennis Frank
    7 December 2018 at 9:21 am

    Perhaps the rationale is to sail a medial course between old-fashioned state subsidies and the market. Assisting start-ups, for instance, and mandating particular types of schemes. Those which provide local and regional employment while serving regional development would be ideal.

    Auckland University has been operating a nursery for innovative tech businesses for a while now, that’s another useful model. James Shaw commented when he became leader of the Greens that the economy is a hybrid capitalist/socialist process nowadays. Collaboration and consensus on this basis will be essential from now on.

  27. greywarshark 29

    This on wetlands – facts aaahh!

    marty mars 15
    18 December 2018 at 5:03 pm

    “A report published in the New Zealand Journal of Ecology maps the wetland loss of the region (Southland) by comparing satellite images taken in 1990 and 2012.

    It examined 32,814 hectares of wetland and found it was being lost at a rate of 157 hectares per year.

    Since 1990, 3452ha of wetlands were no longer present in the landscape and a further 3943ha were at risk – amounting to 23 percent either lost or in a state of decline.

    Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage said more must be done to protect wetlands.”…

    … Southland Ballance Farm Environment Awards committee chairman Bruce Allan said he hoped the report would prompt a painful, but necessary, change in farmer’s behaviour.

    “I think it’s a wake up call. There’s been a long history of land development across the nation really, we’re probably going to see that slow down and there’s obviously moves to improve habitat,” Mr Allan said.

    “There’s far greater awareness of the issues and there’s a lot more role models out there prepared to show leadership and talk about what they’re doing and pitch in with community initiatives such as catchment groups to turn this situation around and improve things.”


    The thing that strikes me with this is that Yes minister we DO have to do more to protect wetlands – this is a no brainer so lets do it. And this ‘wake up call’ idea – surely the wake up has already occurred what we have now is the repeated hitting of the snooze button hoping it all goes away – it won’t go away.

    • Robert Guyton 29.1

      RadioNZ rang this morning for comment on this issue, but I was out in the garden 🙂
      I wonder how many “wake up calls” will have to be made before farmers mobilise.

  28. greywarshark 30

    Interesting piece on sub-clover (short for subterranean clover). It’s an annual and if allowed to go to seed will multiply and it is nitrogen fixing and managed well is useful. Many farms will have some as it was spread aerially about 50 years ago.

    Managing sub-clover
    Changing management to allow the clover to set-seed has paid dividends. It is now driving September-to-November growth rates of 750-1kg/day in yearling cattle – and on very steep country.

    In a normal winter, Dave and Judy will see the sub start to come away in July and August and they will set-stock dry cattle on this high-quality feed in August.
    “If we work with it and learn what it needs, we can use sub clover to benefit stock.”

    For Dave and Judy, tweaking their management systems to encourage sub clover has allowed them to make low-cost production gains. They have also found over-sowing sub seed to augment the resident populations successful, although it did prove challenging this year.

    Note: Some older cultivars have high oestrogen levels contributing to ewe infertility (from Pastures Australia)

  29. greywarshark 31

    Bumblebees – there are four kinds in NZ but one is on the way to extinction.
    Exact numbers of Bombus subterraneus are unknown, but entomologist Barry – who studies the dwindling species – says the situation “is sounding rather ominous”. The species was abundant in the 1960s, with one person catching 80 queens in one day, but searches in the last two years have found just two insects. “The meagre evidence we have very strongly suggests that numbers have been decreasing rapidly,” adds Barry, who is trying to catch the bumblebees and establish man-made colonies in Christchurch in order to study and conserve their numbers.

    Their disappearance here echoes their story in England over the 1970s and 1980s, leaving the New Zealand population as the only one left in the world. “Extinction here is possible. They went extinct in England after living there since the last Ice Age. They went extinct there in just a couple of decades, so there is no reason why the same couldn’t happen here. Then that raises the gigantic question of why.”

    English researchers believe the loss of natural habitats and a reduced range of wildflowers – a key food source – due to intensive agriculture were the main factors. Barry says he is also concerned that in New Zealand, a devastating disease may have been introduced to the population, but no one knows for sure.

    On a bigger scale, Barry says the loss of the Bombus subterraneus signals the continued “degradation of the biota of the entire world”. “We live in a gigantic ecological web, with everything interacting, supporting and competing at the same time, but the more the fabric of that web breaks down, the more instability there is of the entire web. So the extinction of anything undermines our own security.”

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