It’s not just Serco, it’s state operated prisons

Written By: - Date published: 12:14 pm, July 25th, 2015 - 72 comments
Categories: crime, Judith Collins, Kelvin Davis, prisons, Privatisation, Public Private Partnerships - Tags: , , , ,

Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara, one of the 18 arrested during the Urewera Terrorism Raids, has written a detailed piece useful for anyone interested in finding out more about the NZ correctional system and why penal reform in NZ is absolutely necessary. (Hat tip Gangnam Style/Tautoko Mangō Mata).

He says:

– Prisons are the way they are because the public is largely uninvolved, and is not actually interested in what goes on inside.
– Most of the general public don’t actually care about what happens to prisoners – they get what they deserve … unless violence is put in the public face, as in the recent Serco revelations.
– The Justice System is determined by politicians who are keener to get re-elected than fixing up a dysfunctional prison system.
– Many of the groups that do engage with the Justice System to advocate for adjustments to the way prisons are run, are often self-serving and/or ideologically driven (i.e. Sensible Sentencing)

This sounds spot on to me. Our prison population increased 86% between 1995 and 2010. And with a recidivism rate sitting at around 50%, things need to change. We are wasting people, and we are wasting the finances of the Crown.

Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara continues:

While societies continue to create the conditions for street gangs, prisons will only perpetuate their longevity and ongoing recruitment. I saw this with my own eyes, to some extent in ACRP/MECF and in full bloom in Spring Hill Corrections Facility (SHCF).

In order for gangs to survive the onslaught of targeted policing decimating their numbers at large, they use your prison system and your tax money to recruit and train the next intake of manufacturers, wholesalers, distributors and security (foot soldiers). The gangs regenerate themselves inside the prisons.

Whether by organised fight clubs to train foot soldiers to do the muscle work, or the more common method of one on one mentoring, your tax dollar is being put to good use by gangs for their objectives. Corrections in its history in this country has never been able to prevent this from occurring, whether under National or Labour, in either private or state run prisons.

And of course, whatever Labour does with respect to Corrections – and they definitely have room for improvement – National can always do much worse:

Spring Hill Corrections Facility was built by the Labour Government and completed in 2007 to house 650 sentenced prisoners. Its initial focus was on Pacific Island prisoners, hence it has a Pacific Island focus unit called Vaka, and a Pacific Island church.

With the change of the incoming National government in 2008, the government then embarked on putting more people in prison, 1000’s more than they had bed spaces for. The then Minister of Justice Judith Collins concocted this grand idea of replacing the single bed cells in Spring Hill (and other prisons to some extent) with bunk beds. I bet Collins thought this was a clever cost saving idea, but it however led to a massive and fatal rise in violence. Every prisoner I ever spoke to pointed without hesitation directly back to that one event as the principle catalyst – deliberate over crowding.

Spring Hill now has 1050 prisoners inside cells in facilities designed to be uncomfortable for 650 prisoners. This results directly in a new level of violence that is not isolated to the world of gangs and their training regime. Everyone is susceptible to the violence that ensues from Collins’ intentional overcrowding.

Whether waiting for the one unit telephone, or microwaves, or the two unit washing machines, the result is a daily high level of anxiety that is far above and beyond the intended stress levels prisoners were meant to be under while incarcerated. After weeks of these extended lockdowns, Spring Hill turns into a sort of war zone that makes those so called fight club videos look like child’s play.

The simple truth is that NZ incarcerates too many people, we set too many young people up on a path to prison, and on release, we don’t do anywhere near enough to give these people new options in life and prevent them going back inside, creating new victims on the way. Ideologically constipated, hypocritical, pro-punishment groups like the badly named “Sensible Sentencing Trust” are given too much sway in the conversation. And now that National is signing away the Crown’s responsibilities to low accountability for-profit corporates like Serco – who make more money when there are more people behind bars – we have seen things deteriorating further.

72 comments on “It’s not just Serco, it’s state operated prisons ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Sable 1
    25 July 2015 at 12:25 pm

    The number of people imprisoned by a society is in my estimation a refection of the quality of that society in terms of justice, fairness and equality. Rather than lock people up, why not increase home detention with an emphasis on supervised volunteer work during daylight hours? It would give people purpose and limit exposure to hardened criminals who may have gang affiliations (I do appreciate that there is little chance of this happening whilst National is in office).

    • Colonial Viper 1.1
      25 July 2015 at 12:34 pm

      Yep there are many options to consider. What we are doing now is not working. Ensuring stable housing and employment with supervision and support for those coming out of prisons would also greatly reduce recidivism.

      Lower rates of recidivism mean fewer victims, and less costs for society and the Crown.

  2. Pat 2
    25 July 2015 at 12:47 pm

    irrespective of Sercos ability (or lack of) to operate any of our prisons or indeed the whole service John Key has basically announced today that they will continue to be part of the system for the foreseeable….not entirely unexpected.

  3. whateva next? 3
    25 July 2015 at 1:06 pm

    I am not surprised if there are issues with state run prisons also, but question why state run prisons are accepting wounded people from Serco run prisons to put on their stats?
    If the government care so little about people, then of course they will run state run prisons into the ground, to justify handing the lot over to Serco.
    This government seek to abrogate ALL responsibility (aged care, health service, corrections etc), despite the fact it is the society that is paying them, and giving them the power to make decisions affecting us all.
    NZ Society has been reduced to playing with and manipulating numbers and (our) money.

  4. DH 4
    25 July 2015 at 1:29 pm

    That is a very well argued and constructed piece from Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara, the man is certainly no fool. I knew about very little of what he’s written and I find his story convincing.

    I would debate one of his assumptions though, and that’s his view on the attitude of the general public. We just don’t know and I think if we were properly informed on prison conditions people would largely be more sympathetic towards the inmates.

  5. RedLogix 5
    25 July 2015 at 2:02 pm

    It would be more humane just to bring back the death penalty for ALL criminal offenses.

    From overdue parking tickets upwards. Life is cheap after all. /sarc

  6. Draco T Bastard 6
    25 July 2015 at 2:04 pm

    The simple truth is that NZ incarcerates too many people, we set too many young people up on a path to prison, and on release, we don’t do anywhere near enough to give these people new options in life and prevent them going back inside, creating new victims on the way.

    How about we don’t send them inside in the first place?

    I’m becoming a firm believer in home detention and community work/rehabilitation. You pull people out of the destructive communities that they’re in and put them into communities that support them out of poverty and into their dreams.

    • Karen 6.1
      25 July 2015 at 2:25 pm

      Absolutely right.
      Finland has shown us the way. In the early 1990s they had one of the highest prison rates in Europe. They decided to reduce the length and number of prison sentences, and replace them with home detention, fines and community service. They now have one of the lowest imprisonment rates in Europe without any increase in crime.

    • RedLogix 6.2
      25 July 2015 at 2:27 pm

      Probably 80-90% of people in prisons don’t belong there.

      There are a number of people who have no conscience, no shame nor empathy and probably no chance of ever changing. They are the minority who the public DO need protecting from and should be isolated in their own communities for life. But the large majority really just need time in an environment where they stand a chance of maturing into functioning people again. Prison is absolutely the wrong place for them.

      But we are rather poor at telling the difference between them, and the public driven by easily aroused punitive instincts, and isolated from the consequences, will fail to make it every time.

      • Colonial Viper 6.2.1
        25 July 2015 at 2:36 pm

        yes there are a few people who do need to be put away for decades/permanently. Basically, if a prison term is required, it would probably be a max security institution such would be the nature of the crime.

      • dukeofurl 6.2.2
        25 July 2015 at 5:29 pm

        No days with the use of home detention for large numbers it would be a far higher number in prison who really deserve it.

        Back in 1983 short term prisoners (< 2yrs)were 70% of prison population, now they are only 17%

        60% are in prison for violence against person (physical or sexual),Im not sure where you get the impression that 80-90% ‘shouldnt be there’

        600 alone are in for homicide type offences. Just under 10% of all prisoners have killed someone.
        Not sure where you get the idea 80-90% shouldnt be there

        500 prisoners have ‘life sentences’ ,250 have preventative detention

        83% or prisoners are there for longer than 2 years, no sure where you get the idea 80% shouldnt be there

        2000 prisoners have sentences over 5 years

        Nothing in these figures suggests that most ‘should not be there’

        http://www.corrections.govt.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/738939/Trends_in_the_Offender_Population_2013_updated.pdf

        • Colonial Viper 6.2.2.1
          25 July 2015 at 5:46 pm

          You’re brand new to this policy area, aren’t you?

        • RedLogix 6.2.2.2
          25 July 2015 at 5:51 pm

          Some years ago when the very well known defence attorney Mike Bungay retired Kim Hill (I think) interviewed him.

          He expressed the view (based on a career up close and personal with murderers) that around 85% of people who kill do so in extraordinary circumstances. He thought most of them were never ever likely to commit such an act ever again, nor did anyone really need ‘protecting’ from them.

          He did go on to say that there were some who killed for money, or for some personal/political gain – that were candidates for ‘natural term of life’ imprisonment – but that the majority were not.

          And mostly what your figures reflect has been an increasing ‘tuff on crims’ obsession over that period with locking people up for longer. Ultimately the only logical end-point of that logic is either an evil, over-crowded prison culture that constantly re-infects the wider community with increasing levels of violence, abuse and damage – or a return to some form transportation/death penalty to get rid of them.

          Or as Karen points out – there is Finland.

          • dukeofurl 6.2.2.2.1
            25 July 2015 at 6:04 pm

            Please dont mention countries that have no relation to NZ, and have no figures that back this up.

            The people who shouldn’t be in prison are doing home detention type sentences, 60% of prisoners are doing sexual or physical violence sentences.

            Off the top of your head rules of thumb are ignoring reality

            Mike Bungay was talking about 30 years ago, he died in 1993.

            Please look at current numbers etc

            • Colonial Viper 6.2.2.2.1.1
              25 July 2015 at 6:18 pm

              closed minded people like you who refuse to look at best practices will always hold back progress in NZ, which has one of the highest incarceration rates in the western world. Which explains why you dont want to look internationally for answers: because other countries have shown that answers to improvements do exist.

              • dukeofurl …
                26 July 2015 at 8:51 am

                Im not closed minded. I didnt expect these numbers which Ive just looked up. I was looking for numbers on life sentences but the numbers in prison for violence was totally surprising.

                We are stuck between a rock and hard place as prison rarely gives a light bulb moment for those locked up, and yet we have protect people from all types of violence.
                Other countries are all very well but they mostly dont have the inset gang problem which ruins so many young mens lives.

                Overall the current system using home detention for sentences under 2 years and for prerelease for others towards the end of longer sentences is a big step forward.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  26 July 2015 at 1:45 pm

                  We are stuck between a rock and hard place as prison rarely gives a light bulb moment for those locked up, and yet we have protect people from all types of violence.

                  Did you even fucking read what RL wrote? Let me remind you (even though it was only a couple of comments up):

                  He expressed the view (based on a career up close and personal with murderers) that around 85% of people who kill do so in extraordinary circumstances. He thought most of them were never ever likely to commit such an act ever again, nor did anyone really need ‘protecting’ from them.

                  So your argument of protecting people from violence is 85% BULLSHIT

                  Overall the current system using home detention for sentences under 2 years and for prerelease for others towards the end of longer sentences is a big step forward.

                  Look at the fucking numbers in context and not two dimensionally.

                  The system is using home detention and other forms of out of prison punishments IN ADDITION to sending more people to prison for longer and longer sentences than 20 years ago.

      • Anno1701 6.2.3
        27 July 2015 at 11:48 am

        they should certainly release all the “drug criminals” ASAP

    • dukeofurl 6.3
      25 July 2015 at 5:04 pm

      Thats already happening.

      There are approx the same number on the different forms of ‘home detention’ as are in jail.

      • Colonial Viper 6.3.1
        25 July 2015 at 5:28 pm

        Yet we still have 5,000 too many people in prison at any one time.

        • dukeofurl 6.3.1.1
          25 July 2015 at 5:42 pm

          Really ?

          My numbers suggest otherwise

          • Colonial Viper 6.3.1.1.1
            25 July 2015 at 5:44 pm

            2/3 of people currently in prison should not be there, as a rule of thumb. It does them, and society, no good.

            What are the “figures” you are going off?

          • dukeofurl 6.3.1.1.2
            25 July 2015 at 5:58 pm

            You could be looking at 70% of all prisoners who have life or preventative detention or physical or sexual violence offences.

            NZ is a violent country, our prison population problem is too many are violent or dangerous.

            • Gangnam Style 6.3.1.1.2.1
              25 July 2015 at 6:25 pm

              “NZ is a violent country” – paranoid, gated community mentality on show.

              • Ergo Robertina …
                25 July 2015 at 6:56 pm

                Not necessarily. I can’t speak for dukeofurl’s intent, but NZ is a violent place. But it’s families – wherever they happen to live, who cop it mostly, not strangers.
                Go and sit in any district court in the country for an afternoon and watch what comes before it – such as the thugs who punch and kick pregnant partners.
                The 1 or 2 years their fathers spend in jail may be the only time some children do not witness violence as an everyday reality.
                I support prison reform and an overhaul of rehabilitation and training programmes BTW.

                • whateva next? …
                  25 July 2015 at 7:06 pm

                  social unrest inevitable when wealth gap is so wide

                • RedLogix …
                  25 July 2015 at 7:08 pm

                  I can’t speak for dukeofurl’s intent, but NZ is a violent place.

                  I’m inclined to agree. I’ve faced it down a few times up front and personal. But that’s the point CV and I are trying to make – it didn’t get that way by accident.

                  Middle class white dudes with the privilege of living in leafy suburbs and attending good schools (like me) can go through life oblivious to it. But it’s a daily reality for a whole swath of people living in this country. People who’ve been nothing but shit-magnets from the day they were born.

                  Prison is graduate school for these guys.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    25 July 2015 at 8:25 pm

                    People who’ve been nothing but shit-magnets from the day they were born.

                    They’re not ‘shit-magnets’ but are living amongst family and local community violence. Both of these need to be addressed to stop the recidivism and the cycle of violence that is occurring. Sending people into jail where they get better training for violence and improved connections with gangs certainly doesn’t help.

                    • dukeofurl …
                      25 July 2015 at 8:53 pm

                      Tell us what you think does deserve jail?

                      bashing the missus but not putting her in hospital but off work for a week is no jail then ?

                      What sexual violence doesn’t deserve jail then ?

                      Let us know your fine line ?So that we can reduce the numbers to suit you.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      25 July 2015 at 10:16 pm

                      Jail – the Finnish way

                      Seven cases, six guilty verdicts; one imprisoned, six walk free. Another morning in the Finnish judicial system – a country with the lowest prison population in the European Union. Here they have made it a point of principle to keep criminals out of prison, unless they are believed to pose a risk to society.

                      “I don’t believe longer prison sentences help our real safety,” says Markku Salminen, general director of the Finnish prison administration. “If you put someone in prison, then it is almost certain that they’ll be released and go back again. Prison is like university – the university of crime.”

                      This, the Finns believe, is particularly true of the young, who are only incarcerated for the harshest crimes.

                      We really don’t have to send everyone who commits a crime to jail. Support and rehabilitation are much better options for the majority of offenders and society.

                    • dukeofurl …
                      27 July 2015 at 10:43 pm

                      I think the Finland example could be in NZ as well. Fines and community detention for first time offenders

                      But look at contributing factors to our high rate of violence

                      NZs road accidents and deaths , higher than similar countries

                      NZs workplace deaths, higher than similar countries

                      NZ Drinking culture ( which leads to alot of the violence), its hard to pick as worse than other countries , but it has become worse over the years.

                • Gangnam Style …
                  25 July 2015 at 7:12 pm

                  Maybe where you live, but in my town we can walk around at night, crime is low, never been burgled ever (touch wood), only sat nights in town I would say was dodgy. I would find it hard to believe we are any more violent than many other countries, so to say “NZ is a violent country” is nonsense IMO.

                  • Ergo Robertina …
                    25 July 2015 at 7:15 pm

                    You completely missed the point of my comment.
                    I was talking about family violence.

                    • Gangnam Style …
                      25 July 2015 at 7:23 pm

                      Fair enough, but I fail to see how gated communities will affect that! Bollard wrote a story about it in fact, where the inhabitants of the gated community turned amongst themselves, classic story of paranoia & snobbishness. Which is what I was getting at.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      26 July 2015 at 9:34 pm

                      @Gangnam – Gated communities are not relevant to this discussion. The fact is the most dangerous place (in an overall sense) for women and children is their homes – gated or not.

                  • dukeofurl …
                    25 July 2015 at 8:47 pm

                    So , because you like in a sheltered part of the country we shouldnt be keeping rapists and violent men in jail.

                    The facts are we have a large number in jail for the size of population, and 60% are for physical and sexual violent ( Another 10% have committed homicide type crimes or have preventative detention)

                    Just closing your eyes to reality doesnt stop it being true. Dont women and children deserve being kept safe ?

                    How violent does a person have to be go to jail ?

                    • Gangnam Style …
                      25 July 2015 at 9:42 pm

                      You are the one closing your eyes to reality, I do not have to answer to you, especially with your ‘how long is a piece of string’ circular arguments. I am calling you out for your paranoia.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      26 July 2015 at 1:48 pm

                      The facts are we have a large number in jail for the size of population, and 60% are for physical and sexual violent ( Another 10% have committed homicide type crimes or have preventative detention)

                      Just closing your eyes to reality doesnt stop it being true. Dont women and children deserve being kept safe ?

                      you;re being a fucking dipshit

                      This system you are promoting has recidivism rates of almost 50% within 4 years of release from prison.

                      That means shit loads more victims shit loads more crimes shit loads more prison sentences shit loads more costs on society shit loads more cost on the Crown.

                      So, how does a failing-high recidivism-high crime repeat system keep anyone “SAFE”

                      FFS

                    • dukeofurl …
                      27 July 2015 at 11:42 am

                      If you dont reform, then the next sentence is longer-

                      I dont know you have any evidence other countries with lower rates of imprisonment have ‘softer sentences’, eg Britain

              • Anno1701 …
                27 July 2015 at 2:38 pm

                i agree with the Duke

                Ive lived in a few different countries over the years

                NZ is the most violent in MY experience by quite a large margin

            • Colonial Viper 6.3.1.1.2.2
              25 July 2015 at 6:26 pm

              you dickhead, people weren’t born that way were they. For many of them an early prison experience set them on a course for heavier duty recidivism and increasing violence. Thats the point RL and I and others are trying to make.

              All you can see in the numbers are the bad results of the current failing system, yet you use those bad results to try and justify why that same failing system needs to stay in place. WTF.

              • BM …
                25 July 2015 at 8:22 pm

                Lots of guys consider crime, a career, a life style.

                A lag in prison made you a man.

                • Stuart Munro …
                  25 July 2015 at 9:18 pm

                  Yes – most Gnats are lifers too – once they pick up that criminal culture it takes a lot to reform them.

                  • Tricledrown …
                    26 July 2015 at 3:44 am

                    BM its a pity all the white collar criminals who run the National ,ACT and the country end up doing some lag .

                • joe90 …
                  26 July 2015 at 1:02 am

                  A lag in prison made you a man.

                  You’ve done a lag have you?.

                  • BM …
                    26 July 2015 at 8:30 am

                    No, I just heard it from a few guys I used to drink with.
                    Seemed like prison was a bit of a badge of honor.

                    They weren’t very nice people.

                    • te reo putake …
                      26 July 2015 at 8:45 am

                      “They weren’t very nice people.”

                      And yet, they tolerated you. The rehabilitative system at work, I guess.

                    • dukeofurl …
                      26 July 2015 at 8:55 am

                      I think hes saying some are tougher than us . Thats is my experience of someone who was in jail for a shortish sentence for repeat drink driving. Of course that was nearly 20 years ago. I think its got worse now as the ‘people who shouldnt be there’ of Mike Bungays day , 30 years ago, mostly are not in jail unless they repeat the offending

                • Tricledrown …
                  26 July 2015 at 3:16 am

                  BM your simplistic narrative is an example of your shallow thinking and lack of research your bullying by lying. dramatizing a shread of truth to make propaganda.have you read anything on why people end up in prison.
                  Like reductions by this govt on mental health spending has lead to more mentally ill people ending up in prisons.
                  Up to 70% of inmates have mental health issues.
                  Up to 70% of inmates are their as a result of alchohol related crime.People with mental health problems 99% of them have substance abuse problems as well,no doubt BM you have substance abuse problems as well.
                  70% of inmates are ilerate and can’t get work.
                  All these issues could be reduced significantly if money was spent at the top of the cliff.
                  But also the fat cat lawyers cops prison managers constructors are happy for this industry to expand.
                  All they need is a few redneck dickheads to put simplistic ideas in the voters minds and the multi billion dollar crime and punishment industry continues to thrive.
                  These rednecks are the first to complain about wasting taxpayer money.
                  In this case last to look at permant cost reduction solutions.
                  An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure.

                  • half crown …
                    26 July 2015 at 9:20 am

                    Hey trickle, you’re on to it. First class comment mate

                    We have just lost one of the only people who was also on to it, and was aware that what you see is not always the complete story and there could be other circumstances. Sir Peter Williams QC. I am a republican and against any form of honuor for doing a job, but I am pleased he has been recognised for his work.

              • dukeofurl …
                25 July 2015 at 8:42 pm

                Sorry that doesnt cut it. Im not saying they are born that way , just that we ARE a violent country.
                Theres too much violence against kids, against women and even against men.

                Given you have a lot of study into the prison problem, which of the rapists and violent men shouldnt be going to prison?

                • Lloyd …
                  25 July 2015 at 10:43 pm

                  I have to agree we are a violent country – we keep voting in a government that kicks the majority of the population in the teeth every day. Sell-offs, tax cuts for the rich, cuts in essential services, lack of investment in infrastructure, you name it. All violence against the lower and middle income mom and pop battlers.
                  We don’t have enough political prisoners in this country. The present cabinet could all be arrested as traitors and if we can’t shoot them, well maybe a decade or two in Serco’s hands would be justice enough.

                  • dukeofurl …
                    26 July 2015 at 8:56 am

                    Gang violence , domestic violence, violence against children.
                    Its not a good list at all.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      26 July 2015 at 1:50 pm

                      chuck them all in prison because that’s what NZ society is all about. The corrections system is working to improve the level of violence in society, right?

                    • dukeofurl …
                      27 July 2015 at 11:40 am

                      Im hoping you are coming from a background of extensive experience with courts and prisoners, otherwise its just another pious hope your radical ideas will be accepted.

                      A bit like a South Seas Syriza, and we know how their big ideas turned out.

              • Tricledrown …
                26 July 2015 at 3:47 am

                Bitterly Misogynist.is lagging behind in manhood.

  7. Treetop 7
    25 July 2015 at 3:17 pm

    A couple days ago on AJ TV I heard that 2.2 million people are imprisoned in the USA, this amounts to 25% of people world wide who are imprisoned. 60% of the 2.2 million are either Afro American or Hispanic. NZ appears to be catching up with the high level per million of incarceration.

    Until the reasons that cause (racialism, addiction, theft, violence, PTSD, anger, unemployment) are addressed, prison numbers will increase. Prison has little or no benefit in preventing racialism, addiction, theft, violence, PTSD, anger or unemployment.

    It was predicted by a person on the Standard about 18 months ago that Serco would not deliver. The government have theirselves to blame for the dire situation of prisoners being least safe at Mt Eden. It is a big problem for anyone who has been harmed or who is being harmed so a service can make a profit from a persons misery.

    • greywarshark 7.1
      25 July 2015 at 4:42 pm

      About the black high numbers in USA prisons, there was an explanatory comment here I think though maybe wrong as to place, a few months ago, showing a line from Nixon and policy considerations shown in government documents then and increasing entrapment, provocation and apparently irrational harrasing treatment and judicial bias….

      • Treetop 7.1.1
        25 July 2015 at 5:29 pm

        ….entrapment, provocation and apparently irrational harrasing treatment and judicial bias….

        I do know that the parole conditions in the USA are overly strict compared to NZ for the same crime.

        Long term Incarceration can lead to institutionalisation, the world would be a scary place being released after 20 years e.g. finding employment.

        I cannot provide the figure that imprisonment in the USA costs, it was in the low billions.

        • greywarshark 7.1.1.1
          25 July 2015 at 7:40 pm

          And not only blacks are harrassed. The law in some states makes not doing up seat belts something serious, I think they might call it an indictable offence.

          A white woman taking her boy home from sport, was stopped and probably protested, and was held in jail overnight. Now there may have been something extra to the seat belt, but she was in charge of a child in her vehicle and some at home I think. This sort of thing is not keeping the peace, its petty harrassment by a tyrant legislature with a control force that is willing to police to the max.

          Recently I wrote about a black family in Canada where a young man threw a tissue out of the car window and the family were very afraid when they were stopped. Police are patrolling, looking for a reason to stop and question blacks. There are too many reports in north America of police behaviour that apparently is accepted, not controlled or punished by their leaders.

      • Colonial Viper 7.1.2
        25 July 2015 at 5:33 pm

        Changes that Bill Clinton – a Democrat – signed into law as part of the Omnibus bill around 1993 massively increased the incarceration rate of blacks for crimes which had previously been considered relatively minor.

        • dukeofurl 7.1.2.1
          25 July 2015 at 8:58 pm

          Your points are certainly valid for US. Their federal system doesnt even have parole. Things like 20 yrs to life are common. Very rare in NZ someone is more than 20 years

          Unfortunately our figures are different, as we massively reduced the people in jail for short periods ( those who shouldnt be there on average)
          Even for longish sentences say 4-6 years , which is a pretty bad crime, they are only serving 1/3 which is 18 months to 2 years if they have a good record inside

  8. DH 8
    25 July 2015 at 4:20 pm

    Well it looks like we can add NZ Herald to the rogues gallery as well…. try reading this without tasting bile;

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11486812

    Poster boy? wtf!!!

    • whateva next? 8.1
      25 July 2015 at 6:38 pm

      beyond words how Serco/government are spinning the narrative around this, this is a new low for Keyspeak though.

      • Tricledrown 8.1.1
        25 July 2015 at 8:36 pm

        Prisons are battery farms for people who a large proportion have untreated mental health issues.
        Who end up getting educated in the criminal university called prison.
        People with mental health problems are easily lead,a lot of mental health problems come from violence neglect and abuse during childhood.
        Prison is though to be the cheapest way to deal with this problem.
        But all prisoners are released sooner or later the way they are treated on the inside cut of from society beaten abused then trained by the only family they know the criminal fraternity.
        No wonder recidivism is a problem.
        .
        This ends up costing the tax payer billions feeding the likes of Serco and bearaucracy ie Police lawyers Judges court workers infrastructure etc because rednecks have this idea to lock em up and throw away the Key. The same rednecks don’t like paying taxes either but end up paying billions for this naive shortsighted short term thinking

        • whateva next? 8.1.1.1
          26 July 2015 at 12:19 pm

          summed up nicely there, very well done, thankyou.
          If this could be on The Nation, or at least picked up by any MSM as THE narrative, instead of the drivel I had to hear from Boag on Q&A this morning, we could get going!!

    • whateva next? 8.2
      25 July 2015 at 7:13 pm

      and why were they transferring him anyway?

  9. RedLogix 9
    26 July 2015 at 10:53 am

    Those of us who participated in this thread yesterday will find this highly relevant:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/70464458/the-home-that-created-little-criminals

  10. Kevin 10
    26 July 2015 at 3:59 pm

    1. House repeat-offender pedophiles and the like in their own gated community which they can never leave.

    2. Decriminalise ALL drugs but at the same time provide extra penalties for when people act under the influence, e.g. drive, commit a crime (this is something The Economist has been advocating for at least two decades).

  11. Ron 11
    26 July 2015 at 6:52 pm

    It seems that so many people are missing the point CV was making that we need a proper investigation of the whole penal system in New Zealand and for once we should try thinking outside the box (cell) There are countries in the world that have had the courage to address the prison question and they have evidence to back up the idea that increasing prison terms and treating people like non humans will only increase the problem. Get rid of the whole jail idea and start thinking of how we would want to be treated if we were in a similar position.
    +100 CV

    • dukeofurl 11.1
      27 July 2015 at 11:36 am

      Other countries have lower rates of violence, that is our number one problem. Prisons dont fix that but its a group of responses that we have like home detention, but we can hardly but someone with domestic violence back in the home.

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