Key gets what he wants at Waitangi

Written By: - Date published: 6:24 am, February 6th, 2012 - 171 comments
Categories: election 2014, Maori Issues, maori party, national - Tags:

While Key was away on his 4-week holiday in Hawaii, the world economy deteriorated, reports on the dire state of poverty in our country came out, and access to strategic resources became a pressing issue – both with our farmland being bought and Iran threatening to close off the globe’s oil supply. But Key was working on a plan – to stoke up racial dissent at home.

It’s easy to forget, with the passage of time, that just 7 years ago National purposely whipped up a storm of Pakeha vs Maori anger to win Pakeha conservatives/reactionaries from Labour. Key was a senior member of that Brash-led National and his key advisor, Steven Joyce, ran Brash’s racist campaign. These people may not be racists themselves but they’re perfectly willing to use racism to win power.

So, Key comes back from holiday and what’s the first story he creates? A fight with the Maori Party over the constitutional status of the Treaty, intertwined with the asset sales issue (Of course, National already has a modified version of s9 ready to put into the asset sale legislation that will allow the Maori Party to save face without quitting the government but, for now, a whole lot of pissed off Maori suits Key very nicely). He then added to Maori anger with the announcement that TPK will be gutted.

He got to go along to Waitangi and face a crowd of angry, ‘scary’ Maori. When reactionary Pakeha read: “About a dozen sturdy protesters moved forward on Key as he approached the Marae to speak” (those big Maoris, so scary!) they saw an attack on their representative and, so, on all Pakeha, by all Maori. Key cleverly and cynically got all those reactionaries to identify with him by placing himself in conflict with their ‘other’.

To think that Key just so happened to insult Maori twice in the week before Waitangi and the resulting wall-to-wall coverage of protestors yelling at him while he quietly tried to carry on with the formalities and then left (ever so regretfully) because of the ‘bad behaviour of the natives’ was unexpected. To think that happened by accident would be to think that Joyce and Key are far worse at politics than we know they are. What’s more likely? That they couldn’t anticipate events a few days ahead, or that they are already laying the groundwork for 2014?

As I’ve discussed before, Key will need every conservative Pakeha he can get in 2014. He knows that his rightwing agenda has a one-seat majority this term. He knows that actually selling the assets, the continuing failure of the economy, the normal wear and tear of government, and (let us dream) a resurgent Labour will take its toll on National’s support. He knows the Maori Party is dead and its votes will go to Mana, the Greens, and Labour.

So, where does he get the votes to govern again? From the Conservatives and from what remains of Labour’s ‘Waitakere man’ support. Making his agenda (not just asset sales but also mining, public service cuts, and benefit cuts) into a Pakeha vs Maori fight is the perfect way to win those votes (and, nicely for him, send more Left votes from Labour to Mana) at very little cost.

171 comments on “Key gets what he wants at Waitangi ”

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  1. Pete George 1
    6 February 2012 at 6:55 am

    But Key was working on a plan – to stoke up racial dissent at home.

    That’s a claim for which you can have no evidence so can be seen as a speculative attack – are you trying to use Waitangi Day to stoke up more of a racial divide?

    These people may not be racists themselves but they’re perfectly willing to use racism to win power.

    Who’s trying to win power with this post? Using racism.

    Is this the sort of thing Fran O’Sullivan was referring to when she wrote this?
    “Most posters won’t sign their names to their comments because they are frightened they will be held responsible. They are frankly cowards.”

    [lprent: Do you want me to write a post on the subject? While I am at it write one entitled “United Future and it’s fools”. Frankly Fran and you are just talking crap. There is nothing that prevents anyone from writing these posts that just join the dots. You should know – the crap you wrote on your blog and here is full of it. Whaleoil just makes crap up. Live with it.

    But don’t attack authors. There wasn’t anything in your comment about the topic. It was a straight attack on Eddie. Banned for 4 weeks. ]

    [Just beat me to it. Given that it was Key and Williamson who comprehensively played the race card over the Crafar farm sale; it’s altogether predictable to have PG try it on as well now that his ‘betters’ have made it ‘respectable’. ..RL]

    • Eddie 1.1
      6 February 2012 at 7:17 am

      “That’s a claim for which you can have no evidence”

      apart from the chain of events, as explained in the middle of the post

      “Who’s trying to win power with this post? Using racism.”

      um. not me?

      too believe that key just so happened to twice act to piss off Maori in the week before Waitangi and that the resulting events were entirely unexpected would be to seriously under-estimate the political skills of Key and Joyce. Hell, they even rubbed salt in the wound by saying that Key would be speaking about asset sales – the main topic of contention.

      And look at the media – Key dignified, Msori/poor unreasonable and rude. This is exactly what Key was looking for.

      There was a slight risk that he could have been framed as weak or out of touch but as it played out it fell right into the media’s Waitangi narrative and the racial divide was primary, Key just tsk tsked and said it was a shame ‘some people’ don’t want ‘civilised’ debate (this is after he avoided the debate throughout the election campaign0

      • Fortran 1.1.1
        6 February 2012 at 1:35 pm

        “look at the media”
        They have done a disgraceful job in stirring up the populace over the Treaty.
        It was exactly what the media wanted. They rule now remember.
        Sales and Ratings are what matter.

    • muzza 1.2
      6 February 2012 at 8:42 am

      Given the week that was , with government attacks on Maori (and indeed the rest of us), the consensus among friends I spoke with , was that Waitangi would be heated affair. You would not need to be too observant to have picked that Pete, yet you still try to play the deflection game, shame!

      The result could not have been any other than what it was, and hence easily debateable that it was contrived by Key’s handlers!

      Pete the divide and conquer technique is a classic as you will be aware of, and it is alive and well in NZ, and your response is as rediculous as your Dunnes barnet!

    • phillip ure.. 1.3
      7 February 2012 at 8:53 am

      what is it with you and red alert…?

      ..you both ban/censor at the drop of a bloody hat…

      ..i happen to think pg is a moron..(mr nowhere-man..)

      ..but you do yrslves/the left/progressivism no favours..

      ..with this control-freakism..

      ..i prefer to let the right have their head…

      ..and let their words show them for their idiocies…

      ..why are you so afraid of any dissent/questioning..?

      ..why is the left so ‘controlling’ over the message..

      ..are you afraid of idea-infection..?

      ..why not just calmly/rationally dismantle their bullshit..

      (as eddie did above..)

      ..and use them as foils..?

      i go to kiwiblog/whale to kick the crap out of them./

      .and they are wonderful foils..

      (check out yesterdays hugo chavez post from slater as an example…)

      ..they just trot out their crap..and i demolish it..

      .why don’t you do the same here..?

      [email look alike deleted].

  2. One Anonymous Bloke 2
    6 February 2012 at 7:17 am

    I was going to poke fun at PG, but LP got in before me.

    If anything we learned from The Hollow Men still applies, the National Party will be as concerned as ever with its brand management. The notion that they are simply blundering around in the dark, that the timing of the announcement on TPK was a coincidence, simply doesn’t hold water.

    And if it does, that’s even worse because that paints them as politically challenged; I would rather they be rendered incompetent by venality rather than stupidity.

    • rosy 2.1
      6 February 2012 at 7:32 am

      My thoughts exactly – deliberately appearing inept, or inadvertently inept. What a choice.

  3. robertguyton 3
    6 February 2012 at 7:24 am

    Poor Pete!
    Got a serve on this special day.
    Still, he can retreat to the UnitedFuture blog and engage with the constant stream of commentators there. Perhaps he’ll have Fran deign to descend from her lofty height to give him succour.
    4 weeks is a long time, but is it long enough?

    [lprent: Yes it is. He is aware of the policy because I pointed it out before when I banned him last year (?). Attacking authors personally on their own site is a Darwin award. It is invariably done to avoid the topic, as PG did. I usually ban heavily when people do it.

    As sysop and occasional author I am acutely aware of both the need for authors and how hard it is to be motivated to write. Cheaparse tactics like that just irritate me. The only time that is usually permissible is when the author clearly makes themselves part of the post – like my Fran post.

    On the other hand, PG is ok as a commentator. I might disagree but he engages and argues his corner. A month sounds educational enough about why you don’t attack the author here (what he does in his own blog is his problem). ]

    • phillip ure.. 3.1
      7 February 2012 at 10:46 am

      i-prent said:..

      ..”..Attacking authors personally on their own site is a Darwin award..”

      um..!..why..?

      ..what makes them immune to being called/questioned..?

      ..where else can you challenge them..?

      ..(not abuse/cursing..obviously..i’m talking calm/reasoned questioning..)

      ..is that why brian edwards banned/censored me..?

      ..’cos i dared to go ”hang on..!..that ain’t right..!’..on his ‘own site’..?

      ..whither free-speech.?

      ..f.f.s..!

      [email look alike deleted].

      • lprent 3.1.1
        7 February 2012 at 11:51 am

        The post like almost all of the posts on this site is an opinion (which is why they are labelled as opinions on the right). They use the available facts and look at what the author thinks are the patterns or possible patterns that can be inferred from the available facts. They are posts put up for others to agree / disagree or argue about. Essentially they are debate starters.

        Now read the post which conforms exactly to that mode. It is very clearly an opinion. Then read PG’s comment on the post. He didn’t say anything like “your opinion is wrong because….” What he said in essence was “you are an arsehole for even putting this opinion up”. He didn’t attack the argument, he attacked the author.

        PG could have framed all of the things he said in terms of “you are wrong because…”, but he chose not to. Therefore I consider it was a deliberate attack on an author. It doesn’t matter what the language is. An attack of a person is quite distinct to one on an argument.

        I should know, I actually prefer writing attacks on people because after decades of arguing the same topics, I tend to find it more fun and behaviour changing to needle the person. I’m very good at it because I’ve seen and done a lot of it over the years plus I find myself steadily getting better at reading peoples personalities and vulnerabilities through their writings. It isn’t usually conducive to debate as people wind up feeling hurt and upset. So it is a trait that I try to largely restrict to when I’m operating as a moderator or when I’m defending the site from an attack (like Fran’s one on the weekend). In other words when there is a reason to do some behaviour modification because debate isn’t really sufficient.

        The difference of the two approaches from a commentator to an author’s motivation is considerable. It is frequently the difference between wanting to continue writing and not. Even rereading PG’s opinion, I am having to restrain myself from banning him permanently or adding to the ban….. I had to restrain myself even more from attacking his vulnerabilities and tearing him a new rectum for his ego.

        ..whither free-speech.?

        Attack what authors say and say why they are wrong. Don’t attack them unless you want to become unwelcome. They are the ones providing the service that you are using. There is nothing ‘free’ about either maintaining a server or putting out the effort to provide content. If someone (as you must have done – neither Judy nor Brian ban for no reason) acts like a stupid dork and doesn’t control your own behaviour on someone else’s place, then you’re likely to become unwelcome in any circumstances.

        If you don’t fix your behaviour then you can expect to get bans. Or even worse run up against someone who has been around the social media’s for a while and really really knows how to attack you and has no compunction about doing it because they think that you need an education in how it feels from the other side. After all that is “free speech”

        Perhaps you should take a great leap of cognitive leap and look at your comment in the terms that Judy or Brian would have (rather than how you would like to feel about it). You certainly don’t seem to have attempted that task. If you don’t figure out why you got the educational experience of a ban, then you’ll just repeat your screwup.

        • phillip ure.. 3.1.1.1
          7 February 2012 at 12:29 pm

          “..I am having to restrain myself from banning him permanently or adding to the ban..”

          why..?..he’s a vacillating-idjit…but there are far worse out there…

          ..and you never answered the question of:..why not let the idiots hang themselves on their own words..?

          [lprent: I prefer to keep authors. It is a lot lot easier for the site to dump a commentator than it is to lose an author. I thought I made that quite clear.]

          ..i actually think ‘tearing him a new rectum’..(especially if done in an amusing manner..)..is preferable to banning..(the.’free-speech’ vs ‘vigorous-debate’ argument….)

          (and then you threaten to ban me..heh..!..seeing a pattern here at all..?)

          [lprent: I did not. First moderators do not threaten, we tell people that they need to change their behaviour on our site or it will be changed for them. Secondly it is a warning and a promise because a commentator has no power to negotiate. It always looks like this – bold and inside YOUR comment. Now think it through. If a moderator exerts themselves (we prefer not to do so) and goes to the effort of warning and it has no effect. Then the simplest way to reduce the work load is to ban preferably with some parting comments about why. We don’t want to put in all of the effort of banning but moderators set the rules and eventually have to enforce them. If you don’t like the rules, then find another site or set up your own. ]

          “..They are the ones providing the service that you are using. There is nothing ‘free’ about either maintaining a server or putting out the effort to provide content…”

          i’d like to give you a special strawman-award for that one..(in an unattacking way..of course..)

          ..as in..what the hell has who pays to run the blog got to do with the topic under discussion..

          ..what automatic-gravitas does that bring..?..

          [lprent: It has everything to do with it. The people who put in the effort to start and run a site also set the rules of that site. You can set the rules on your own site but you don’t set them here. ]

          ..”..If someone (as you must have done – neither Judy nor Brian ban for no reason) acts like a stupid dork ..”

          you then launch what you ban for…a personal attack on me..(seeing any multiplying of atandards here..?.at all..?)

          [lprent: It was an observation based on what I know about Judy and Brian. But in any case the same thing applies. They set the rules on their site. You whining about it is a meaningless waste of everyones time – including your own. ]

          fwiw..edwards did a post on occupy that farrar could have written..

          ..basically..a dirty/lazy hippy riff…i politely called him on it..and referred him to my cache on that topic..(it can be seen at his site..)

          ..and before that i called him on that self-serving false-fact that
          nicotine is more addictive than heroin’..

          i pointed out to him that anyone who had been addicted to both..would fall on the floor laughing at that claim..

          .i also commented on the phenomenem of the ‘acceptable-gatekeepers’ in our media etc..

          ..appparantly that is enough ‘reason’..

          ..i did ask why i was censored/banned…to no avail/a dead silence..

          “..Perhaps you should take a great leap of cognitive leap and look at your comment in the terms that Judy or Brian would have…”

          yes..i’ve tried that..still no luck…

          ..(and maybe you could go and look at that…rather than just that ‘dork’-assumption…eh..?

          [lprent: I believe I mentioned that I have a really hard time restraining myself from needling into people. It always amazes me how easy it is to wind people up with a few well chosen words. The word was quite deliberately chosen for effect. ]

          ..and do you really think that by banning people ..you are ‘educating’ them..?

          ..and really..i don’t feel you answered the questions/issues i raised in my comment…

          ..re the merits of censorship..

          ..could you have another go..?

          ..[email look alike deleted]..

          [lprent: I think I answered them completely and in full, both as a comment and now demonstrating what moderator mode looks like. You just don’t like the answer. Tough shit…

          It isn’t a topic that is worth my spending time discussing because all I can do is tell you what the rules are (BTW read the policy). I don’t really care what your opinion or even what your feelings are on it. It makes absolutely no difference to how the site will be run. I don’t even value your opinion as much as would with other commentators because you have contributed very little to the site even as a commentator.

          What I do see is that it is wasting my valuable time and pulling it away from both work and moderation tasks. Rather than waste more time, I’d be likely to reduce the nuisance wasting my time. That is a warning. ]

          • phillip ure.. 3.1.1.1.1
            7 February 2012 at 3:23 pm

            (note:..i-prent does not have to read this…wot with all that ‘valuable time’..and all..eh..?..)

            heh..!

            q.e.d..

            ..dare to question..you will be banned..

            ..as i implied at the beginning..

            ..it isn’t a good look..eh..?..for progressive politics..which i support..

            ..you are giving us all a bad name..which is why i am here trying to reason with you…

            ..but obviously to no avail..eh..?

            ..btw..you do slip into personal abuse very easily for a self-regarding ‘moderator’..eh..?

            ..more immoderator..eh..?

            (btw…you forgot the exclaimation mark at the end of ‘warning’..

            ..that would make it far more ‘educating’..eh..?

            ..and i don’t think you realise how arsebitingly funny you are..

            ..kinda like a riff on the monty python dead-parrot skit…

            ..talking to you..eh..?

            ..cheers for the chuckles..eh..?

            ..shine on etc..

            [email look alike deleted].

            [lprent: Suffice it to say that I’m not here as some kind of strange role model. If you want someone to be nice, then find a frigging politician or wannabe politician. If you want someone to follow, then there are heaps of people willing to take your money.

            If you want someone to be effective in certain types of tasks then that is what I do, in my own way and in my style. I’m a arrogant, grumpy, usually pretty consistent, extremely persistent, a programmer, and a good rule of the thumb social engineer within these online communities. I have also spent an excessive amount of time on the net.

            It is my task to make this site work effectively for the authors in all of their varied views, and to work effectively for debate on those views. Both of which it does most of the time with the minimum of effort by the volunteers.

            Consequently we keep getting more readers, more comments, and overall better posts and comment streams. If you can suggest something that I think will help that task then I’ll implement it. If you want to suggest something that sounds unimplementable or vague – then I ignore it or tear it apart. Critics are a dime a dozen. People who actually can work on the site and its content are a lot rarer.

            You need to look at your writing style as well. That one fell into auto anti-spam. Akismet didn’t like it. ]

            • phillip ure.. 3.1.1.1.1.1
              7 February 2012 at 8:17 pm

              i-prent seeing as you asked what suggestions i might have..

              1)..i think both you and red alert..(and edwards too for that matter..)..need to loosen up on the control…

              (i mean..think..what is the worst that can happen..?..is anyone bleeding..?

              ..and is it really so bad/worth the enormous amount of effort/time you spend ‘moderating’..it must rule yr lives..to a certain extent..a pain in the butt..)

              ..i am a great believer in the ideas of letting threads take on a life of their own..

              ..and perhaps the most potent example of that..and the potential perils/downsides of moderating i can think of is a mega-debate at frogblog over the xmas period on gun-control…

              ..and the gun-freaks came out in force..

              ..and the thread itself is a masterclass in that particular argument..(and how to shoot down the gun-freaks..)

              ..they threw every argument they have ever used at the thread…and a tag-team of myself and a few others ..resoundingly demolished every one of them..

              ..they ended up staggering back to their foxholes….whimpering as they went..

              ..ok..then about a week ago someone mentioned that debate..and frog immediately croaked/harrumphed that that had he/she not been on holiday…he/she would have closed that thread/debate down quick smart..

              ..and all that left me with was the clearest possible focus..that moderation would have killed that valuable tool at birth…(which i pointed out to him/her..hoping it would make him/her think on a bit..about the whole question of moderation..)

              ..of course slander/criminal-libel..must be moderated..and language/cursing standards are fine..if wanted..

              ..but aside from that..i really believe free-speech should be given its’ head…

              ..i believe that that basic democratic-right is too important to casually mess with..

              ..and should only be over-ridden for the above stated reasons…

              ..and..readers aren’t dumb…they can sort the wheat from the chaff..they don’t need help with that…

              ..and i can’t emphasise the delight of seeing a thread come to life..and challenging/questioning idead being bandied about/batted-away…

              ..and you know who often gets the most from those threads/that blog experience..?

              ..the readers..

              ..one of the reasons i welcomed this new media world with little cries of joy..

              ..is because i saw it as smashing the censorship/control of information wielded over us by the mainstream meadia/the acceptable-gatekeepers…

              ..and i don’t see exchanging one form of control of words/ideas for another..

              ..to be that giant leap i welcomed..

              (tho’…there is one type of moderation i support..that is i think that commenters not using their own names should have to make the case to moderators to use that fake-name..

              ..’cos i think that with that freedom of speech/ideas must come the responsibility of standing beside/behind what you write/say..

              ..and as one of the few in this web-world to use my own/real name…it seems to me the aliases are just the enabler of people to say/fling crap they never would if they had to sign their own name to it..

              ..instigating that system would bring about self-moderating…(and again..lessen yr workload..)

              ..oh..!..and re the ‘writing style’..?

              ..many have tried..and failed..

              ..i have been writing this way for years…

              ..i’m addicted to it..eh..?

              ..(couldn’t ‘go back’ now..)

              [email look alike deleted].

              [Having ground my way painfully through all that.. I’m unimpressed. It’s a ramble few people will be bothered reading and amounts to pixel clutter. As for your ‘unrestrained free speech’ argument, we’ve tried that and it doesn’t work. It either descends into mindless abuse and offensive bigotry, or gets thread-jacked by obssesive nut-jobs. Neither are of interest to any of the authors here. Robust and intelligent debate is by contrast …always welcomed. RL]

              • phillip ure.. …
                7 February 2012 at 8:21 pm

                btw..have you thought of trying st johns’ wort..?..for your self-admitted ‘grumpiness’..?

                ..i also recommend strong cannabis..for the ‘grumpiness’..

                ..if it’s really weighing you down..you could try a twofer…eh..?

                ..the wort and the pot…

                ..a guaranteed de-grumper..that one..i reckon..

                ..wouldn’t you rather go ‘meh..!’

                [email look alike deleted].

                • lprent …
                  7 February 2012 at 9:53 pm

                  I’m a computer programmer. I found a long time ago that pot and actual programming don’t go together too well (and that was just from being in the same room). I just want them to legalize it, put a really good hefty tax on it, health restrictions to keep the THC levels down, and require it to smokers of it to do it outside.

                  The strongest correlation I know for when I get grumpy is because someone is wasting my time (which I am always short of) or some library works in a way that isn’t in the spec (which wastes my time), or I have to stand in a queue to pay something that should be done online (which wastes my time)…

                  Do you sense a pattern here? Your handle is looking curiously wrong at present. It needs some enhancement to truly reflect your true profession… “Phil a waste of time” comes to mind…

                  • phillip ure.. …
                    7 February 2012 at 10:20 pm

                    oh well..carry on..

                    ..i tried..

                    and all you have in response is abuse..eh

                    .and as with edwards..

                    ..you are the one who comes off worse..eh..?

                    ..and yr language is redolent of some 50’s era soviet-dictatorship..

                    ..you totally abuse that small sliver of power you have..eh..?

                    ..and you do get yr jollies from it..eh..?

                    ..see you at the banning-hole..eh..?

                    ..shall we start a sweepstake..?

                    ..somehow i don’t think i’ll be long for here…eh..?

                    ..i could expand into how you are a total manifestation of a lot that is wrong with labour at the mo’..

                    ..but i’ll save that for another day..

                    btw..i’d really like to have this out with you face to face..

                    ..preferably with an audience..

                    ..you probably wouldn’t abuse so readily face to face..eh..?

                    ..what is that the mark of again..?

                    ..remind me..

                    [email look alike deleted].

                    [The only reason why you ‘won’t last long around here’ is because you have failed to have the good manners to read the site policy, or make even a rudimentary effort to learn the social dynamics. This is a moderated site, that is not going to change however much you want to say otherwise. Failure to learn how this site works, something many hundreds of other people have done, is considered a mark of stupidity. Arguing with otherwise busy moderators and wasting our time is considered Darwinian level stupid. Asking to be banned is … well just asking for it. Almost always we oblige….RL]

                    • phillip ure.. …
                      8 February 2012 at 11:41 am

                      of course you do realise that any readers supporting a lessening of the over-the-top moderating..

                      (and especially an ending of the nasty/abusive way moderators address commenters..)

                      (which in itself is an ugly abuse of power..)

                      ..that they will be too scared to speak up..

                      ..for fear of that abuse/’being-educated’..?

                      do you really think that is a good look/behaviour-pattern..?

                      ..from what is purporting to be a voice for progressive-politics..?

                      ..i don’t..

                      [email look alike deleted].

                      [lprent: Which is why it is good that there are many sites out there, like your own for instance. Places like Public Address, kiwipolitico, etc are considerably less confrontational. Some are more so. Some like NoRightTurn don’t allow comments.

                      People go to the sites that they feel comfortable in. This site was setup and has run as quite a robust debating environment (as it states in the policy). It is in everything from the posts to comments to moderation. If you want to comment here then that is the ruleset you work with.

                      We do seem to get a lot and ever increasing number of comments, people reading comments, and the quality of the comments in our view is getting better.

                      It gets tedious having people every other month trying to tell us how we should do our tasks. It isn’t like we haven’t looked at and implemented changes over the years. Generally though, those changes have been for more effective moderating rather than less, because that is what most of our commentators want. ]

          • phillip ure.. 3.1.1.1.2
            7 February 2012 at 4:37 pm

            i-prent…why has my reply to you not appeared?

            [email look alike deleted].

  4. CnrJoe 4
    6 February 2012 at 7:45 am

    nail meet head

  5. Monique Watson 5
    6 February 2012 at 8:20 am

    Don’t hate me just cos I pop up all perky as fuck and linkwhore, which I won’t do now; nothing relevant, till I’ve massaged my theory. I’m just considering this at the moment. I totally agree with Eddie. Not because I think Key’s a wanker who wants a fight, but he’s a very good strategist and either National or the Maori Party is getting it’s arse handed to them on a platter in 2014. He’s trying to stay ahead of the game to make sure it isn’t National. Pete 🙂 looks like you’ve got a holiday.

    [It was a polite warning, and as lprent pointed out .. misplaced. It looked like a link-whore and I responded, but this early in the morning I was forgetting the exact policy. You fitted inside the bound of what is acceptable. RL]

    • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1
      6 February 2012 at 8:49 am

      I can see why you might think it would be either the Maori Party or National getting their arses handed to them in 2014, but consider the likelihood that both of them will suffer that fate.

      • muzza 5.1.1
        6 February 2012 at 8:53 am

        The sad truth behind it all is that whoever the next government is, will be playing a similar beat to the current one, with just a slight change to the melody. Enough to fool people into thinking that it makes a difference, it won’t!

    • Adele 5.2
      6 February 2012 at 2:05 pm

      Tēna koe, Monique

      I do not consider your pop-ups to be all that perky. Although, I can hardly speak, as my pop-ups are lounging in the next room. I thought a link-whore was simply someone thirsty for company. Surely that can’t be you.

    • phillip ure.. 5.3
      7 February 2012 at 12:35 pm

      “..You fitted inside the bound of what is acceptable. RL]..”

      what is ‘acceptable in the sense of posting links’..?

      ..’cos’..y’see..i have fairly big caches on most subjects…

      ..so can always be ‘relevant’..

      ..if that is the (nebulous) criterea..

      [email look alike deleted].co.nz)

  6. ianmac 6
    6 February 2012 at 9:37 am

    Key looked rather smug after being shouted at. Maybe it is a setup by Joyce – again. You’re right Eddie.

  7. tc 7
    6 February 2012 at 9:44 am

    Race, climate change and peak oil, now cue some more bene bashing to detract from the great kiwi fire sale that’s about to get underway…….it’s soooo predictable and sadly we’ve a large redneck /talkback radio set who will Hoover this up and become even more incensed at those ‘bloody maoris’.

    It’s all too easy with an MSM at about a pre school level in terms of balance and intelligence.

  8. james111 8
    6 February 2012 at 10:01 am

    Eddie
    You been chewing on the Maggic mushrooms again. Or perhaps a datura tea. Your hatred for John Key knows no bounds even to the point of wild speculation, and fantasy to try and implicate him in some thing that is quite un true. Get a grip man

    • Eddie 8.1
      6 February 2012 at 11:13 am

      so, your contention is that Key and Joyce didn’t anticipate the events at Waitangi when he announced the gutting of TPK and the omission of s9 days before Waitangi Day?

      Jesus. You must think the guy is incompetent.

      • james111 8.1.1
        6 February 2012 at 11:28 am

        S9 was never for private companies only Government has been blown up out of all proportion by the activists.

        • Eddie 8.1.1.1
          6 February 2012 at 11:47 am

          jesus, kid. that’s not the question. the question is whether key knew he would provoke the response he did by raising the s9 issue the week before waitangi day.

          I argue that of course he did, and he did with the strategic objective of winning reactionary Pakeha votes.

          You argue, what, that Key didn’t foresee the Maori reaction? You think he’s that inept?

          • Matt 8.1.1.1.1
            6 February 2012 at 12:41 pm

            He’s woefully inept at actually charting a viable course for NZ, but yes he’s probably cunning enough to outmaneuver a bunch of disorganized rabble, Labour included, who aren’t much better equipped to govern than National is. I heap faint praise upon him.

            • Georgecom 8.1.1.1.1.1
              6 February 2012 at 2:16 pm

              Basically agree with Matt.

              The Key govt is in deed incompetent at charting the social-environmental-economic course NZ actually needs. Terms like ‘smile and wave’, ‘clueless’, ‘do nothing’ come to mind.

              The Key Government is very careful and focused about brand image.

              It’s social-environmental-economic project is neo-liberal. They will be quite deliberate in trying to implement that. It doesn’t mean they won’t make mistakes. It also doesn’t mean their policy prescription is what NZ needs. You could raise various reasons for this such as rewarding their political pay masters, following their right wing DNA or some (naive) genuine belief that they are doing the right thing (in their mind at least).

              Therefore, It’s brand image and strategising around that is central, ‘smile and wave’. They have a project of neo-liberal change but remain ‘clueless’ about taking the necessary social-environmental-economic actions.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                6 February 2012 at 4:15 pm

                It’s social-environmental-economic project is neo-liberal.

                Actually, I think you’ll find that it’s neo-feudalist hidden behind a mask of neo-liberalism.

                Libertarians are Dictators hiding behind Liberal values.

        • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.2
          6 February 2012 at 12:48 pm

          S9 was never for private companies only Government has been blown up out of all proportion by the activists.

          Oh…I see. In that case you tell National that by privatising all functions and assets of Government, selling all rivers and land to the private sector, that National could obviate the entire Treaty of Waitangi and safely throw it in the bin?

          Iwi will be fine with that I’m sure.

        • Hateatea 8.1.1.3
          6 February 2012 at 2:17 pm

          The fact that section 9 doesn’t apply to private companies is precisely the point at issue.

          Well, that and whether we even want or should sell assets that we paid for out of our taxes and electricity charges at all.

          An activist I may be James 111 but at least I know what I am talking / writing / protesting about. Would that I could same the same about you. BTW Have you read all the nice links we have been finding for you? You may even know some stuff by the end of today if you do. 😉 

  9. grumpy 9
    6 February 2012 at 10:05 am

    So, maybe those ornery Maori protesters were Nats in drag???/

    Either that or their political smarts are even worse than I thought – deliberately creating a situation where (according to Eddie) Key could win the next election.

    Sound a bit far fetched to me………

    • Eddie 9.1
      6 February 2012 at 11:17 am

      what’s far-fetched is believing that Key didn’t know he would provoke protests (which benefit him) when he did what he did.

      Radicals don’t restrain themselves strategically (‘if I protest, it’ll just drive reactionary Pakeha into Key’s arms’) – they’re radicals

      • Gus 9.1.1
        6 February 2012 at 12:27 pm

        Yeah because the election is this year right ? Stick to to your knitting – you haven’t thought this through sufficiently. This is the sort of tactic employed in 2014 not 2012. So whilst you might be correct that they are being deliberately antagonistic at a sensitive time you are so wrong with the reason why its is laughable.

        • Eddie 9.1.1.1
          6 February 2012 at 1:09 pm

          Owera was in 2004. Not an election year. only incompetent parties wait until election year to begin their election strategy

      • muzza 9.1.2
        6 February 2012 at 12:32 pm

        Eddie you touch on a concept I have mentioned on this, and other blogs a number of times, and that is what some see as government incompetancy.

        It is well known that governments have access to think tanks, research, focus groups, consultants, PR teams and the like, all which enable them to receive, analyze then use the information to strategize.

        Believeing that governments are incompetant, is to remove the need for debate over the serious issues (which supposed) incompetance is used as the excuse for continual failure, with regards to running the country in the best interests of the its people!

  10. foreign waka 10
    6 February 2012 at 10:14 am

    The only thing interesting to watch over the next few weeks is how far will the tradeoff for the sales of assets go. Will Mrs Turia and Mr Sharples sell their folks to sit on the cabinet table? Because there is a case regarding the actual asset of the power company vs the water supply to make it operational.The water issue is not just one for Maori but for all NZlaenders. All the deflecting show fights do, is to pull the wool over the eyes of NZlaenders. I am actually quite amazed that the seriousness of this situation is not being taken up. Water, next to Oil will be the next big issue that will dominate the world.

    • Carol 10.1
      6 February 2012 at 10:20 am

      Nanaia has posted a thoughtful piece today incorporating the water issue:

      http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/02/06/no-room-for-dithering-on-treaty-of-waitangi/

      A strong driver of opinion on s. 9 of the SoE Act will be the potential impact of the National Governments agenda on natural resources. A case in point from my own electorate is the process Genesis is currently embarking on to renew its 35year consents to take water. Waikato-Tainui may do well to consider their position on consents against a backdrop of any proposed sale of energy companies.
      […]
      The 2008 Waikato River Settlement contains a clause that gives Tainui first right of refusal over the Huntly Power station. No position on water rights was reached by the then Labour Government or the National government. This remains a live issue for many competing water users – but there are many roads to Rome and it could well be time to revisit water allocation and consent rights.

      She addresses this in relation to specific iwi, but it does have implications for all Kiwis, and does need to be a major debate in Aotearoa-NZ.

      • foreign waka 10.1.1
        6 February 2012 at 10:40 am

        I am also weary of enterprising Maori who at the drop of the hat will sell anything that can be converted to money. Sorry, but no one is really above this. Water is a RIGHT for every living being as it is essential for survival. NO ONE has a right to remove, manipulate, make it difficult to obtain or even impossible, to obtain water and thus maintain the right of LIFE. period.

        • Gosman 10.1.1.1
          6 February 2012 at 11:12 am

          So what about food then foreign waka? You could equally argue the same about food production. Therefore all food production should be managed and controlled by the State. Then we can extend that logic a little further. Health, Education, Housing, Communication, Jobs. For each we can make a case that there is a societal right to them. I’ve even seen arguments by some Occupy movement hippie who was trying to argue that free internet access was a fundamental right. If your only solution is State ownership sooner or later we end up looking like Cuba and North Korea.

          • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1.1
            6 February 2012 at 12:52 pm

            Oh Gossie, you are sweet, but your argument that one thing means that it must be all the same for every other things is…stupid.

            • muzza 10.1.1.1.1.1
              6 February 2012 at 1:06 pm

              Not to mention his mistaken belief that the “capitalist model” he has given his soul to, will not end with us looking like those same destinations he refers to, on current trajectory!

              Ever been to Cuba G? The place is fantastic!

              • Colonial Viper …
                6 February 2012 at 1:41 pm

                Ironically, Cuba is a very expensive place to get to and holiday in compared to most places in South East Asia, say. They may be commies but they ain’t stupid.

              • Gosman …
                6 February 2012 at 3:29 pm

                Yeah, that is why people risk their lives leaving to go to Miami.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  6 February 2012 at 3:31 pm

                  Life expectancy is shorter in Miami, and access to healthcare worse. And then there are the bank fees.

                  • Gosman …
                    6 February 2012 at 3:33 pm

                    Yet still people decide to leave Cuba and go to Miami. Next you’ll be blaming it all on the dreaded Embargo.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 February 2012 at 3:35 pm

                      But people still decide to leave from NZ to go to Australia. Even after 4 years of National Government.

                    • Gosman …
                      6 February 2012 at 3:42 pm

                      And you lot blame that on the policies of National. So would you agree that the people leaving Cuba are because of the failed Socialist policies of the Castro regime?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 February 2012 at 4:18 pm

                      Only if you tested your hypothesis by offering 10,000 Cuban residents visas to US citizens. What’s the bet that every single one would be taken up. Then what about your theory then haha

                  • grumpy …
                    6 February 2012 at 6:33 pm

                    Actshully, I once got real crook in Cuba. What a health system! I was in hospital for a week, much better than you would expect and all free.

                  • Populuxe1 …
                    6 February 2012 at 8:22 pm

                    Life expectancy in Havana is a lot shorter than in Miami if you happen to be gay, disagree with the regime, and quite a few other things.

          • foreign waka 10.1.1.1.2
            6 February 2012 at 1:52 pm

            Gosman, here is some info: Fluid intake has the biggest effect on immediate survival. Our bodies tend to have several weeks worth of reserve energy from food stores, but lack of fluid causes problems with kidney function within a few days. When someone is no longer taking in any fluid, and if he or she is bedridden (and so needs little fluid) then this person may live as little as a few days or as long as a couple of weeks.
            In terms of the health of the wider community, health consequences of water scarcity include diarrhoeal diseases such as cholera, typhoid fever, salmonellosis, other gastrointestinal viruses, and dysentery.
            Just to state the obvious: Without water there is no food.
            ACCESS TO WATER IS A RIGHT NOT A PRIVILEGED. Unless you believe some are not worth to keep alive.

            • Gosman 10.1.1.1.2.1
              6 February 2012 at 3:32 pm

              So in your mind is Water the only thing that is a right not a privilege?

              If so then that leaves an awful lot of room for abuse of the individual if all the state has to guarrantee is water access.

              If not then what other rights should be guarranteed?

              • Hateatea …
                6 February 2012 at 3:42 pm

                ‘If not then what other rights should be guarranteed?’

                I would think that fresh air should be GUARANTEED, wouldn’t you? 

              • mac1 …
                6 February 2012 at 3:46 pm

                Gosman, foreign waka did say “a right” at 10.1.1…………. this use of the indefinite article indicates that there are other rights which foreign waka acknowledges.

                You are just doing that silly trolling thing of asking stupid questions, again. Aren’t you? Can you show me how you could assume that foreign waka only spoke of one right?
                If so, what other rights do you acknowledge? This question thing is very easy to do, isn’t it? Pisses off those trying to debate with you, eh? Is your technique that answering questions with further questions just to do that or is it because you don’t have answers? Eh? Eh? Eh?

              • foreign waka …
                6 February 2012 at 5:08 pm

                Gosman, we are taking about asset sales- in particular power stations, Hence the issue with water. It would take eons to go through all the rights under the rainbow.
                But here is a hint:
                The right to life and all that it entails. One sentence, does this satisfy the query?

              • Bored …
                6 February 2012 at 9:08 pm

                Gos being a plonker again. Its always either – or, black – white, always an extreme. No shades of grey, merely laziness and an inability to explore the concept that there may be something in between polar opposites. Such a fool.

                • Gosman …
                  7 February 2012 at 8:14 am

                  You accuse me of being black and white on the subject when it was foreign waka and Hateatea making claims that access to resources are an absolute. I actually happen to think the subject is far more complex. While a certain minimum levels of access to water for all is desirable beyond that you will just encourage waste of the resource by making it completely free.

          • Shane Gallagher 10.1.1.1.3
            6 February 2012 at 5:00 pm

            Firstly Cuba and North Korea look very different – so I am not sure what your point is. Cuba is very successful and if it hadn’t been under an economic sanction by the US for the past 50 years or so I wonder what its economy would be like now.

            Secondly access to healthy food is a basic right same as water, along with decent affordable housing. I am not sure how you leap from that to control by the State. You seem to be confused. North Korea along with all the other former communist democratic republics were State Capitalist economies. They weren’t communist. Just as they weren’t democracies or republics, even though it says so in the name. See? That is where you got confused. Crucially in a communist state (a real one) the means of production are owned by the workers. So farmers own their farms, factory workers own their factory, shop keepers own their shops, etc. That has yet to happen in a real way anywhere.

            Capitalism is not necessary for democracy and the converse is also true. One on need to look at China and Singapore to see very successful capitalist states with are oligarchies.

            And the internet – it has become a basic right just as it is a right to have a decent education. Because now so much of our society is mediated through the internet that, to deny someone access to it is to deny them the ability to operate as a full citizen in the state.

            • Gosman 10.1.1.1.3.1
              6 February 2012 at 9:39 pm

              Ah. The old cannard that the former Soviet Bloc, North Korea, and China before the reforms of Deng Xiopeng weren’t really communist but State Capitalism. On top of that you throw in that old bollocks about the economioc problems in Cuba are as a result of an Embargo, (an Embargo it must be stated that didn’t stop them trading with the Soviet Union from 1959 through to 1991). Leftists are unwilling to admit that their beloved collective economic system fails when compared with the Capitalist alternative. There are at least two excellent real world experiements which show this – Germany and Korea. Until you are able to provide an alternative where are country is run successfully along collective line these will always be thrown back in your faces no matter what excuse you attempt to use.

              • Shane Gallagher …
                6 February 2012 at 10:13 pm

                Er WTF are you talking about? What have Germany and Korea got in common? Germany had a high level of worker participation in its industry, high levels of social welfare and is relatively social-democratic in its political structure. I don’t really know enough about Korea to comment… Oh I get it – sorry East Germany and North Korea.

                The economies in the former Soviet Union and in pre=reform China were State Capitalist. That is known as a real world “fact” – not the parallel universe many right-wingers seem to inhabit. Communism, if you deign to read anything except propaganda, is essentially “the means of production is owned by the workers”. Now this hasn’t happened anywhere very well – but where it has been most closely enacted – in the Nordic countries and parts of mainland Europe you have stable, prosperous economies which are highly egalitarian.

                You may not have noticed but capitalism is in its death throes at the moment. That is what you see in the news every day. That is what the right wing are not dealing with very well. 🙂

                • Populuxe1 …
                  6 February 2012 at 10:50 pm

                  The success of social democracy in the Nordic and Scandinavian countries is more to do with traditions of strongly monocultural communal life going back to the Vikings, and a strong strain of Lutheran Protestant practicality, charity and  work ethic. It doesn’t have a great deal to do with Marx and his theories. They are a rather unique case, and it is unfortunate that they are lurching rightward in a burst of alarming xenophobia and overburdened welfare systems that their politicians are linking with un-assimilated Muslim immigration – to which there’s a certain element of truth.

                • Gosman …
                  7 February 2012 at 8:18 am

                  You mean State Capitalism like Governments owning businesses in Western countries? Nice to see a leftist acknowledge that this isn’t as efficient in the long run as private enterprise running them.

                  Tell me what countries have been pursuing the ‘true’ form of Communinsm then. Venezuala?

                • Gosman …
                  7 February 2012 at 8:40 am

                  Why do you think it is in it’s death throes? Is it because of a downturn in the World economy? That is part and parcel of the Capitalist system not symptomatic of it’s failure. European countries that got themselves into problems by their governments spending more than they got in taxation are being forced to follow standard right wing presciptions to try and get them out of their mess. So I would hardly think that shows the right wing are not dealing with this very well.

              • John W …
                8 February 2012 at 12:18 pm

                Have you considered the symptoms of blogger who appear hung up on ideology.

                Reading both sides of the story doesn’t always help them if there are blocks to understanding or blind commitment to ideologies.

                Arguing seldom works to bring enlightenment. Holes dug become deeper.

                Carry on.

        • Hateatea 10.1.1.2
          6 February 2012 at 2:27 pm

          Tainui do not want to sell the water, as I understand it. They are protecting their interest in the taonga that is the Waikato as embodied in their iwi whakatauki ‘Waikato taniwha rau, he piko, he taniwha’ ‘Waikato of the many chiefs, one on every bend of the river’.

          The same discussions will be / have been had by Ngai Tahu, Taranaki and others.

          The length of resource consents to ‘take’ water has long been a concern for those with an interest in water quality / quantity inclused Fish and Game, Forest and Bird Department of Conservation and the Commissioner for the Environment. 

          • foreign waka 10.1.1.2.1
            6 February 2012 at 2:59 pm

            Kia Ora Hateatea – Unfortunately, none of the entities you have mentioned have voiced their concern when the issue of power station sales came first up. National made clear that they will perceive a win as a mandate to sell with all bells and whistles. Now as far as the outside world is concerned, Maori – represented by Mrs Turia and Mr Sharpels – have given their consent. This is the crux of it. Protesting now will just increase the disrespect in cultures such as China. There needs to be also a clear statement from the leaders, Pakeha and Maori, what impact the recently signed Trade Treaty with China means – especially in legal terms of guaranties the Government (we ???) has given towards ROI. This is the stuff where grievances are borne off and I am surprised that Maori has not consulted on this in any debt.

            • Hateatea 10.1.1.2.1.1
              6 February 2012 at 3:50 pm

              Members of Parliament, even leaders of political parties who are Maori, do not speak for individual iwi groups, all of which have their own processes to make decisions on such things. Even those members of the Iwi Leadership Group cannot give the government their blessing to ignore s9 of The State Owned Enterprises Act.

              I know that the issue of Ngai Tahu having a stake in what is now Meridian, was discussed in the late 1980’s and, should the sales go ahead, I would be unsurprised to see some stakeholding. It doesn’t mean that I am pro asset sales as I clearly am not.

              However, the issue of ‘water rights’ as argued by iwi has, in the past anyway, been focussed on water quality / water quantity / protection of wetlands and foodgathering sites / the habitat of native fish and birds / as well as access to and enjoyment of waterways as most New Zealanders like to be able to do. 

              • foreign waka …
                6 February 2012 at 5:52 pm

                Kei riri mai. My response was not personal. I have many open questions about the pre election process. I am eluding to any investigations on that issue during that time. This is punctuated with my last sentence.

            • MrSmith 10.1.1.2.1.2
              7 February 2012 at 11:14 am

              “Now as far as the outside world is concerned, Maori – represented by Mrs Turia and Mr Sharpels – have given their consent. This is the crux of it.”
               
              foreign waka: As I understood it the Maori party agreement with Nataional sates they won’t support assets sales.

              • foreign waka …
                7 February 2012 at 5:48 pm

                Yes, but they went into coalition with them anyway knowing that by building a majority government it will be a sealed deal.

                Pre election:

                Key also said he plans talks with the Maori party, which won three seats and has opposed the asset sales program. The party may support the plan if Maori tribes are able to be “major” investors in the stakes, co-leader Tariana Turia said on Television New Zealand yesterday.

                So in other words, the general population who has paid for the assets will loose them anyway, it is just semantics to whom.

        • Dingo 10.1.1.3
          7 February 2012 at 10:31 am

          Huh??? What about all the local councils who charge for water? That doesn’t seem like application of a “right” to me …

    • james111 10.2
      6 February 2012 at 10:24 am

      Asset sales, would be good for New Zealanders just like it has been for Air New Zealand. Governments make a very poor job of running companies. Eastern Block Europe ,and Russia were testament to that.They run the asset down until it no longer becomes competitive anymore

      • Te Reo Putake 10.2.1
        6 February 2012 at 10:34 am

        Eh? You do know the privatised Air New Zealand went broke and had to rescued by the taxpayer, don’t you? What a goose you are, James!

      • Craig Glen Eden 10.2.2
        6 February 2012 at 10:38 am

        James the Labour Government saved Air New Zealand when the private sector ran it into the ground. How old are you 10?

      • Colonial Viper 10.2.3
        6 February 2012 at 10:38 am

        Fictional bullshit.

        Air NZ? The private sector almost crashed Air NZ into the ground and went begging for a government bailout.

        Singapore Airlines, the most successful airline in the world is government owned and run.

        You’re reaching james 3.

        • james111 10.2.3.1
          6 February 2012 at 11:25 am

          Remember BNZ how well did that do

          • Colonial Viper 10.2.3.1.1
            6 February 2012 at 11:31 am

            Governments can run businesses well, and they do so for the public good, not for the good of private shareholders – which is a huge advantage to the people (though not to the 0.1% who are scared of real competition).

            As for the BNZ – sorry mate but the crash and burn of private sector finance companies locally (like SCF) cost far more than the BNZ bail out. And remember, in the history of BNZ, it was a bank which had to be nationalised originally because of the failure of the private sector to deliver for NZers.

            And internationally, private banks go under at huge cost to society. Lehman Bros, MF Global, Bear Sterns, ring a bell?

          • Eddie 10.2.3.1.2
            6 February 2012 at 11:54 am

            BNZ required a $380m government bailout 3 years after partial privatisation. It was eventually privatised entirely (as our power cos will be if National has its way). And, then, the govt had to create a new bank because BNZ and the others in the big 4 were behaving in an anti-competitive manner that was ripping off New Zealanders.

            If you call it a success when foreign-owned banks steal from us, foster a housing bubble, and send massive profits abroad extent we need the government to re-intervene in the market, then you’re living in a strange world.

            • Gosman 10.2.3.1.2.1
              6 February 2012 at 9:44 pm

              Ummmm… there is no evidence that Kiwibank provides any more value for money than any of the other banks. I have worker in most of the big major banks in NZ including Kiwibank. If you think Kiwibank offers anything beyond what the others do you are sadly mistaken. However perhaps you have evidence that Kiwibank has made a difference in terms of the profitability of the other banks because surely that is what you are implying by your statement about them being non-competitive.

              • Neoleftie …
                6 February 2012 at 9:55 pm

                Maybe true but at least we own it and it’s profits etc stay here..
                Interestingly Australia ring fence cornerstone strategic sectors such as banking to disallow foreign investment and control….do I have to go and explain the pro’s.
                To reinforce kiwi bank must operate in a competitive manner to survive and be successful but also they have the ability to stabilise factors such as conditions anytime that is required….

                • Gosman …
                  6 February 2012 at 9:59 pm

                  Australia is wrong to do so in my mind. Also I’m not sure you are correct on that point as it would be difficult to enforce rules on foreign ownership of publically listed organisations when those same organisations are also investing in foreign markets.

                • Gosman …
                  6 February 2012 at 10:00 pm

                  Kiwibank pays lots of money to Australia. You just aren’t aware of it because it isn’t in the form of dividends.

              • KJT …
                7 February 2012 at 11:46 am

                Really. So I was imagining all the extra charges for this, that and the other that the Aussie banks withdrew when Kiwi Bank got going.

                The ones that they still charge in Australia.

                I suggest you read up on public banking in that socialist hotbed, the USA, to see how State owned and controlled banking helped some States avoid the worst of the GFC.

          • Hateatea 10.2.3.1.3
            6 February 2012 at 12:52 pm

            How many times do you need to be told. The BNZ has been saved by the taxpayers more than once
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_New_Zealand 

             

          • Dingo 10.2.3.1.4
            7 February 2012 at 10:35 am

            And the Railways fiasco …

      • Eddie 10.2.4
        6 February 2012 at 11:24 am

        privatisation nearly saw Air NZ collapse. It was majority re-nationalisation that saved it:

        it’s embarrassing that you don’t even know the basic facts. get a history lesson- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Air_New_Zealand#1989_onwards

        note, particularly, how private shareholders tried to manipulate the Ansett situation and how the ‘market disciplines’ of private board members and executives actually led to a disastrous decision that nearly sent the company bankrupt.

      • KJT 10.2.5
        6 February 2012 at 3:39 pm

        Tell that to Singapore. Temesek was doing fine last time I looked.

        On the balance of evidence it is the private sector that cannot run big enterprises, unless they have a Government duoploy or monopoly.
        In fact our private sector has been so poor at building business that the only way they can succeed is by stealing ours. (Privatisation).

  12. Carol 12
    6 February 2012 at 10:49 am

    Key has strongly politicised Waitangi Day this year by using his speech to promote his agenda for assett sales. This opens the door for protests. It also shows disrespect fot the Treaty and the day to use it this way. Why don’t any of the MSM articles on this point out this anomalie?

    • foreign waka 12.1
      6 February 2012 at 2:08 pm

      Carol, I think a lot of people are still befuddled with the alliance of Maori and National. In terms of life philosophies – at least by what we have been told of Maori being so close to the rivers, land and sea – it seem to be an anathema to the Nationals ROI, everything goes kind of way of thinking. For Key to make those remarks before Waitangi Day seem to be more a sign that he wants to split with the coalition partner. So how would he do this without being seen to be the initiator? I belief promises have been made to investors and all the circus we see is to cement this after the fact.

  13. ak 13
    6 February 2012 at 11:32 am

    Here’s one of the best Waitangi Day speeches you’ll ever find, with an excellent discussion of our media – which explains why you’ve probably never heard of it….

    If this is our media, how can we possibly have an informed discussion about any major issue in a democracy? The corporate media has become a highly destructive force for any level of
    democratic participation.

    http://www.waitangi.co.nz/StateofNationForumWaitangi2009RobertConsedine.pdf

    • RedLogix 13.1
      6 February 2012 at 3:54 pm

      Just read it.. outstanding. It pulls together a lot of very interesting threads. Thanks.

      • Hateatea 13.1.1
        6 February 2012 at 4:01 pm

        Robert Consedine is very reasoned and has vast experience of treaty education to draw on. I understand that his courses are excellent

  14. Cee 14
    6 February 2012 at 11:36 am

    John Key: Cunning, craft and beguiling. Pita Sharples and Tariana Turia: Dumb and dumber!

    • Adele 14.1
      6 February 2012 at 3:15 pm

      Tēna koe, Cee

      I differ. Key might have the resemblance of being a cunning, crafty and beguiling man but overall, he is as obvious as flies on a carcass. His type of thinking, his type of behaviour, has been seen many times before – since Te Tiriti was signed. The fall-out is also predictable.

      Do Māori really care about Pākehā opinion? No. Until Te Tiriti is recognised in its truest form – Māori will continue to protest. Rock on 2100..

  15. Lorraine Houkamau 15
    6 February 2012 at 12:10 pm

    John Keys had an agenda when he mentioned downgrading TPK & changing or even getting rid of S9 JUST BEFORE Waitangi day. Of course he wanted people up at Waitangi protesting their hearts out especially Maori its all about the rest of NZ seeing these “lowlifes” being ugly and abusive ( thanks to tauiwi media. Not that they are there fighting to be heard for ALL NZers. Wake the hell up NZ. John Keys wants to be seen as THE ONE “hard done by”.

    • Roy 15.1
      6 February 2012 at 5:11 pm

      This pakeha New Zealander saw those Maori speaking for all New Zealanders and I am very grateful to them.

      • KJT 15.1.1
        6 February 2012 at 9:52 pm

        Concur.

        Time we all realised the enemy is the 1% and their puppets. Not Maori!

        • Colonial Viper 15.1.1.1
          7 February 2012 at 1:44 am

          The top 0.1% are the directors of this puppet show.

          The top 20%, the so called middle class, are the supporting cast.

  16. Adrian 16
    6 February 2012 at 12:32 pm

    Air NZ was only partially privatised because the Labour Govt bought the part that was voluntarily given up. The balance, the part now privately owned would have to have been acquired by forced nationalisation, not an easy job or a good look for any colour of government, no matter how appealing the idea seems. Also at over 70% you have true control which is not possible at less than this and impossible at 51% unless of course one believes Slippery John’s bullshit.

    • Colonial Viper 16.1
      6 February 2012 at 1:04 pm

      DON’T buy any airline shares, airlines are history due to the increasing uneconomic nature of operations and fuel prices. More major failures within 5-6 years. As it is, the airline history on the whole has made no net profit IIRC. (Same as banking coincidentally).

  17. ianmac 17
    6 February 2012 at 1:14 pm

    Interesting phrasing of header for Key political Waitangi speech.
    “Key Tries To Reassure Over Asset Sales.” (Change of tone?)
    In his speech:
    “He also defended the decision to grant approval for the Chinese company Shanghai Pengxin to buy the Crafar farms, saying while he did not agree with wholesale sell-offs of land New Zealand should “embrace” such relationships.

    He said China was New Zealand’s second largest export market and could become its largest.

    “We have enormous potential to maximise our opportunities with that country.”

    Will someone ask him if it was possible to maximise without having to sell the land?

    • Matt 17.1
      6 February 2012 at 1:35 pm

      Or, indeed if it is possible to maximize the opportunities after having sold the land.

      • Colonial Viper 17.1.1
        6 February 2012 at 1:44 pm

        China doesn’t respect weak kneed unwise leadership. They have the Key government calculated to six decimal places by this stage.

  18. taxicab 18
    6 February 2012 at 1:39 pm

    The hand of Joyce was all over yesterdays proceedings , note in the Dom this morning Shearer says that 1 week ago he was offered protection , why? Note also Duncan Garner (Nats poodle) standing in for Henry on Friday on radiolive was bear bating Hone and his nephews telling them they should get over themselves and give Key a hug !! Well planned in advance .

    • Hami Shearlie 18.1
      6 February 2012 at 3:35 pm

      Insulting to poodles !! A poodle has far more in the brain department than Duncan Garner!!

  19. Roger 19
    6 February 2012 at 1:53 pm

    What a surprise, the government that for the last three years has avoided big problems and run a continuous PR campaign is still continuing to do so into its second term.

  21. rikky 21
    6 February 2012 at 2:14 pm

    Not really. Waitangi should not be used as the soap box for the activist left Hone recognises this and probably recognises that he was tarred with his cousins disrespect and breach of protocol.

    • Eddie 21.1
      6 February 2012 at 3:18 pm

      it’s irrelevant whether the protesters ought to have protested as they did. The fact is that they always would react like that to Key’s provocation.

      The topic of this debate is why Key set out to provoke such a response – which he and every other political mind worth a damn could foresee. The post offers the explanation by looking at Key’s strategic imperatives for winning a 3rd term.

      • infused 21.1.1
        6 February 2012 at 3:27 pm

        They react like that to anyone.

        [they protest against deepsea drilling, TPK cuts, and ignoring the Treaty while selling assets with everyone? I think not. Eddie]

    • Neoleftie 21.2
      6 February 2012 at 4:02 pm

      Waitangi is our birthplace it’s about protest, it’s about the voice of the people it’s about coming together as a nation and it’s the one place and time where the focus is upon the greviences that were inflicted upon iwi.
      It’s a time to reflect, a time to mourn And a time and place to celebrate the joining of those before and those who came after into one nation with a proud tradition of freedom, respect and equality.
      Iwi have their rights, traditions and heritage to provide a definition. I for one hope that iwi and maoridom can provide a sharing of values, beliefs with the rest of society.
      Two parts intertwined strengthening the community.
      This day more than any other is about hearing the voices of the past present and future, the hopes for the coming generations that will shape our nation.
      Look to iwi to provide a stabilising influencer on our society as we face the erosion of the commonality that identifies us as a society.
      No wonder the Tories want gone the SOE clauses on Asset sales in regard to Maori interests….they fear a united and powerful iwi block who have a voice public and private, in the streets and in the boardrooms.
      I say power the the people and communities and time the elite structures Imbeded within served the needs of the many.

  22. Neoleftie 22
    6 February 2012 at 3:45 pm

    I have to agree with Eddie…the tories have an agenda…decouple and depower the state mechanism and freely expand the market and private sector.
    This strategy play by key and co simply polarises the electorate and provides more definition to the chaotic political voter matrix. Best define and shape the battle field of pre 2014 so as to give a measure of control going into the election.
    The grassroots Maori are vocal and looking for a polarising issue to bring about change, power and a emphasis upon the flaxroots.
    Interestingly while the left side roots of the community tree are depowered and disorganised the flax roots are becoming more organised and connected outside the iwi elite.
    This as Eddie has stated is about polarising the community and stabilising the right vote and capturing the right ground ahead of the election whilst furthering the Tory agenda of privatisation into the elites control of resources and assets.
    Time for the Maori party to stand tall and draw a line in the sand.
    Time for labour to reconnect to the people, the communities and other structures.
    Time for some meaningful dialogue on the next path and the coming crunch…

  23. Peter Marshall 23
    6 February 2012 at 4:09 pm

    I think people are sick of the Great Brown Anchor dragging NZ down. Time to cut the rope and let NZ sail to better waters.

    Otherwise this as translated as ‘Time to tell the grieving Maori to piss off and stop whinging.’ Maori’s are holding Maori back in a lot of instances not average Jo such as myself. Look in the mirror bro to look at the problem as well as the solution, not my wallet.

    • Hateatea 23.1
      6 February 2012 at 4:11 pm

      And your point is – if there is one, that is?

    • Eddie 23.2
      6 February 2012 at 4:15 pm

      this is an example of the kind of voter that Key is trying to win to his side by, once again, setting up Pakeha v Maori dissent

      • Peter Marshall 23.2.1
        6 February 2012 at 4:26 pm

        Wrong Teddy boy, I am at Key’s side regardless of this.
        Are Labour Greens siding with Mana then? God help NZ if this happenned.

        • Colonial Viper 23.2.1.1
          6 February 2012 at 4:33 pm

          You’re on Key’s side because you are a useful servant. Enjoy.

          • Neoleftie 23.2.1.1.1
            6 February 2012 at 4:57 pm

            More Likely a lapdog trained to salivate when hearing a whistle…me four legs me good, you different..you bad.

      • Colonial Viper 23.2.2
        6 February 2012 at 4:32 pm

        Key is a moron. A million Maori and Pasifika in this country. Can he not add up.

        • Neoleftie 23.2.2.1
          6 February 2012 at 4:48 pm

          Keys and co are simply slicing and dising the community into smaller polarised groupings that the Tories can capture or align at election time. No more simple designations like right or left haves or poor, etc etc now the focus is upon micro voter identifiers that trigger a more lasting party identifier linkage. Asset sales had huge rwsonance with the public but still voted national back in….why….cause the Tories understand the game better.

          • Colonial Viper 23.2.2.1.1
            6 February 2012 at 5:04 pm

            Yep. The Tories understand the minutiae of NZ psychology and NZ society better than the Left.

    • RedLogix 23.3
      6 February 2012 at 4:32 pm

      This is what happens when politicians play the race card. It emboldens the bigots…

    • Neoleftie 23.4
      6 February 2012 at 4:42 pm

      We stole…it’s a fact and now we have to pay it back…simple really. Lucky we didn’t get asked for interest or lost of earning etc so either grow up and become part of the solution or piss off back to your blinkered bigoted hovel cause you have limited valid input no links no thought or statement backups apart from shouting your opinion blah blah blah.

      • James Henderson 23.4.1
        6 February 2012 at 5:10 pm

        hell, the Crown isn’t even paying it back. The typical Waitangi settlement is worth 1% of what was lost.

      • foreign waka 23.4.2
        6 February 2012 at 8:31 pm

        I didn’t steal anything and I feel affronted by that assertion. I pay extraordinary Tax and will have to pay through the nose until the rest of my days notwithstanding that I might be starving when hitting retirement. Get of the grass! The only one who should be paying are the ones who are the owners of the large land holdings and the British crown. Tax has so far contributed 16 billion – again 16 BILLION dollars. Why do you think the county is going to the dogs? How much money have you got in your wallet? Why do you think Key is saying that our assets no less, sold to overseas interest are excluded from such claims?

        • Neoleftie 23.4.2.1
          6 February 2012 at 9:38 pm

          Its your dues as a citizen to contribute, it’s our society and our way of life to help to care and share if you don’t like it you swinging shite piss off somewhere else then.
          This country gives equal opportunity to people, not just small section of society as in other countries, this is our heritage our make up and the rights given and fought for….who are you?
          Once again meaningful debate with contextualised arguments is required not plain whining about how much you pay in taxes. How mant time do we have to educate the stupid troll.
          Just bugger off and leave the social discussion to grown ups who get the big picture and not this selfish me me mentality.
          What or who are you?
          What do u stand for?
          Context of you statements?
          Nothing but a silly little troll

          • foreign waka 23.4.2.1.1
            6 February 2012 at 9:50 pm

            I am old enough to differentiate between right and wrong. And what you write here is plain wrong – factual and morally. Besides, I stand for equal opportunity, social justice and the right to be oneself without being told to bugger off. What do you stand for besides bigotry, foul language and a closed mind?

            • Neoleftie 23.4.2.1.1.1
              6 February 2012 at 10:09 pm

              Well good for you and welcome aboard….we just differ where I willing pay my share of taxes so we have less inequality and more social inclusion and I believe in social responsibility past,present and future.
              As a nation we stole so it’s our duty to recognise that and pay our dues.
              Next you believe in equal opportunity but don’t want to pay for it. Either selfish or dumb you choose?
              Opportunity for yourself or those less connected and with fewer resources to create opportunity…well that is the defining difference isn’t it.
              I believe in a society that through.taxes we care for those in need, we create opportunities for people and not jut the few but these beliefs cost ands money.
              I know everyone hates to pay taxes and I for one hate hate taxes wasted in all it’s forms but at least we live in a society which is free and provide opportunities to have these kinds of debates and I still state either get over it or, make it better or leave…three choices…you choose.

              • foreign waka …
                7 February 2012 at 5:58 pm

                With taxes we care for those in need… gladly, if it is not used for drugs, booze and partying whilst the little ones are being bashed. I have paid taxes all my life and I am happy to give a helping hand but this goes both ways. None of the wishy washy softly, softly I am afraid.
                As for your wild accusations, you are way out of line here. You know nothing about me or what I belief in, let alone what my life was and is like. And yet, you have the audacity to claim superiority over me? I think you have a big problem.

      • Gosman 23.4.3
        6 February 2012 at 9:55 pm

        Bizarrely the Crown was just acting like a Socialist government does when it took over the assets of the Maori. Even the justification was the same. It was doing it for the greater good of the wider society. It is one reason many right leaning people can sympathise with Maori greviences more than left leaning ones.

        • Colonial Viper 23.4.3.1
          6 February 2012 at 10:27 pm

          Bizarrely the Crown was just acting like a Socialist government does when it took over the assets of the Maori.

          First I’ve heard of the British Empire being called socialist. You havin’ a laugh?

          It was doing it for the greater good of the wider society.

          Yes OUR society not THEIRS.

          • Gosman 23.4.3.1.1
            7 February 2012 at 8:36 am

            It was mainly the Settler government that carried out the confiscations of Maori land. The British Empire, (whatever that actually means), wasn’t really interested in New Zealand. The confiscations were done for the benefit of a section of people living in NZ . After 1858 this section of the population was in the majority. Hence it could be argued that the confiscation of land after this date was done to benefit the majority. Very Socialist in my mind.

            • Bored 23.4.3.1.1.1
              7 February 2012 at 10:37 am

              Socialist? More like a combination of entitled squatocracy, mercantile looting and outright larceny. Sort of extreme crony capitalism. In some respects a bit like your beloved Zimmers…a powerful state backing up the confiscation of land from the titled landholders.

    • Kotahi Tane Huna 23.5
      6 February 2012 at 8:46 pm

      I think people are sick of the great dumb redneck dragging NZ down. Time to cut the rope and let NZ sail to better waters.

      Otherwise this is translated as ‘Time to tell the grieving rednecks to piss off and stop whinging.’ Rednecks are holding New Zealand back in a lot of instances not anonymous blokes such as myself. Look in the mirror to look at the problem as well as the solution, not my wallet.

  24. Treetop 24
    6 February 2012 at 4:14 pm

    An explanation for Key not being heard at Te Tii Marae is that the sound system was beneath par. Either the sound system when giving a speech needs to cope with loud inhalers or loud inhalers need to be banned.

    Anyone rushing at anyone is going too far as it is likely that an assault charge could result. I do get it that people do react when they are threatened and antagonised, however the law is clear on being assaulted. Key most certainly has antagonised Maori and will continue to do so.

    Key needs to find a plan B as a substitute to selling energy assets and Air New Zealand shares. Greece is partly in deep shit due to selling off too many money making assets and unless Greece gets a 200 billion dollar bail out a deep recession will be triggered in Europe.

    • Bored 24.1
      6 February 2012 at 9:16 pm

      I have been wondering how (when worldwide banks are all pretty much insolvent technically) the state assets can be purchased? It would seem that insolvent institutions will be allowed to do some more fractional banking to create credit, which in turn will get given to us for the assets, to be bought with vapourware?

      • Treetop 24.1.1
        7 February 2012 at 1:40 pm

        Many Chinese banks are not insolvent. I can only assume that they will pay the best price for foreign money earning assets.

  25. Drongo 25
    6 February 2012 at 9:46 pm

    More hate from the nasty hate-filled Odgers:

    http://asianinvasion2006.blogspot.com/2012/02/1.html#links

  26. Cactus Kate 26
    7 February 2012 at 1:24 am

    KJT the dog would still be cleaner than being bitten by you. Of course you’ve made a race based statement about Chinese restaurants and dogs but you know racism against Chinese is allowed here so you won’t be told off.

    Drongo by name and nature. On the contrary, having remained silent for the entire NZT National Day, I have done anything but hate. Silence is powerful. You should try it sometime before making silly comments on this blog.

    Look at some of the bile written on this blog on the 6th and you have suffered the worst case of pot, kettle brown, around.

    • Colonial Viper 26.1
      7 February 2012 at 1:30 am

      Look at some of the bile written on this blog on the 6th and you have suffered the worst case of pot, kettle brown, around.

      You’re worried about a bit of blog bile on Waitangi Day? But not the PM manipulating the entire weekend’s occasion in order to play the red neck race card?

      On the contrary, having remained silent for the entire NZT National Day, I have done anything but hate. Silence is powerful. You should try it sometime

      You can smartly fuck off for calling Waitangi Day “National Day” you little red neck nut job.

      • Drongo 26.1.1
        7 February 2012 at 2:27 am

        Yes, although I’d add nasty to little red neck nut job – nastiness plain and simple. All this “pot, kettle, black” garbage makes me chuckle. She thinks it’s smart but only her sycophants are taken in by such meaningless shite. Silence, Odgers says? The more of that from her the better. She’s toxic, just toxic, and very soon she’ll drown in it.

        • rosy 26.1.1.1
          7 February 2012 at 4:42 am

          Pot, kettle, black would be fine. But turning an age old saying into pot, kettle, brown makes it just the teeny weeniest racist, don’t you think? And she has the cheek to complain about KJT’s little jab. That really is the pot calling the kettle black.

          • Bored 26.1.1.1.1
            7 February 2012 at 10:42 am

            Kate does write some good stuff though: she recently did an expert book review on her site of a manual on the subject of anal sex. Pity she takes on subjects in which she is clearly in a barbed wire canoe up **** creek with no paddle.

          • Drongo 26.1.1.1.2
            7 February 2012 at 12:21 pm

            Odgers looks for anything in everything for what she thinks is an opportunity to describe in terms of race. That’s why on the face of it she’s completely at home in ACT. Ironically though, she’s so out of control even ACT had to cut her loose. Bloody priceless. How ever much endless entertainment Odgers being in the House would’ve provided, ACT were of course correct to ditch her. MPs who communicate with comments like “Drongo by name and nature” can’t really be taken seriously, but when it comes to what matters totally agree with CV: “You can smartly fuck off for calling Waitangi Day “National Day” you little red neck nut job” – such a sad and nasty toxic piece of work.

      • Gosman 26.1.2
        7 February 2012 at 8:45 am

        Maybe she is not a paranoid concpiracy theorist like the people who believe the PM has manipulated Waitangi day CV.

        • Bored 26.1.2.1
          7 February 2012 at 10:44 am

          Conspiracy is too hard a word….more like contemptuous overt execution.

          • Gosman 26.1.2.1.1
            7 February 2012 at 11:02 am

            You say po tah toe I say po tat o

            • Bored 26.1.2.1.1.1
              7 February 2012 at 6:17 pm

              Hello Gos you great slacker. Just came in after a long afternoons making dosh in the best capitalistic way, very satisfying….did not have time to blog at my financial expense or anybody elses. Hope you have had a fine day being a troll, posing stupid responses etc. Ever thought you could waste an equal amount of time back in Zimmers and feel just as entitled?

  27. aerobubble 27
    7 February 2012 at 9:10 am

    John Howard was accused of being out of touch as PM, so out of touch that race riots started up as Howard used veiled racism against boat refugees.

    Key does not want to discuss independance from foriegn capital and is using Maori to first make the issue about Maori and second about Asset Sales. The issue is much deeper than Keys infamous “its too complex for him to get over the issues while he was being heckled” so he’s going to go ahead come what may.

  28. Tiger Mountain 28
    7 February 2012 at 10:26 pm

    Heh, the “filth” have certainly appeared in numbers on this thread. What dirty f*****s you are when your views are examined in some relation to verifiable facts.Never mind Cuba and all the rest Gozzie, it has taken many years but significant numbers of South American nations are moving left. The “rabiblancos” will have to front up sooner rather than later.

    • Drongo 28.1
      8 February 2012 at 6:45 pm

      And the filthiest of the filth’s now talking about abolishing the Maori seats. She’s all class, all right, all class.

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