- Date published:
8:24 am, October 28th, 2016 - 182 comments
Categories: capitalism, class war, manufacturing, poverty, socialism, us politics, workers' rights - Tags:
A recently released audio clip from celebrity left wing media icon Michael Moore‘s latest film Trumpland explains perfectly why “Trump’s Election Will Be The Biggest Fuck You Ever Recorded In Human History.” Hearing Moore speak, it seems to me that he “gets” Trump’s appeal and his support base far more than some members of the over-intellectualised liberal elite do.
Firstly Moore debunks the Clinton-worshippers elitist meme that Trump supporters are a “basket of deplorables” and “irredeemables.”
I know a lot of people in Michigan that are planning to vote for Trump and they don’t necessarily agree with him. They’re not racist or redneck, they’re actually pretty decent people and so after talking to a number of them I wanted to write this.
He notes that Trump stood up to auto company execs planning to close US factories down like no one else in the political establishment has.
Donald Trump came to the Detroit Economic Club and stood there in front of Ford Motor executives and said “if you close these factories as you’re planning to do in Detroit and build them in Mexico, I’m going to put a 35% tariff on those cars when you send them back and nobody’s going to buy them.” It was an amazing thing to see. No politician, Republican or Democrat, had ever said anything like that to these executives, and it was music to the ears of people in Michigan and Ohio and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin – the “Brexit” states
Moore goes on to recognise that the former middle class, the now unemployed and underemployed, the individuals and the families have been wrecked by the elite of the USA, have not necessarily lost everything: the country is still, in some ways, a democracy.
And on November 8, although they lost their jobs, although they’ve been foreclose on by the bank, next came the divorce and now the wife and kids are gone, the car’s been repoed, they haven’t had a real vacation in years, they’re stuck with the shitty Obamacare bronze plan where you can’t even get a fucking percocet, they’ve essentially lost everything they had except one thing – the one thing that doesn’t cost them a cent and is guaranteed to them by the American constitution: the right to vote.
Moore knows that Trump may not mean a thing he says, Trump may not end up changing a thing, and although Moore seems sure that these same people are going to eventually regret voting for Trump it is very predictable what they will still choose to do:
So on November 8 the dispossessed will walk into the voting booth, be handed a ballot, close the curtain, and take that lever or felt pen or touchscreen and put a big fucking X in the box by the name of the man who has threatened to upend and overturn the very system that has ruined their lives: Donald J Trump.
Moore text from Zero Hedge here. Listen to the audio excerpt of Moore speak on YouTube here:
there will be many who do exactly that and for exactly those reasons……but they will be in the minority.
Yes, we can easily dismiss these people, because…they’ve already been forgotten about by the people who matter – and they know it.
who are these “people that matter”?
the people whose voices aren’t instantly dismissed and mocked in the corridors of power and in the studios of the mainstream corporate media.
they will be dismissed as much as anyone else…..the impact has already been felt by the Republican Party and may yet turn the US legislature on its head and think it is safe to say their voices will have far reaching impact even if belatedly…..and thats in the face of the usual suspects disdain.
“No [one] rules alone”:
yes, and lots of republicians will stay home, or think what a Trump victory will do to their party and the US… ..and so vote Clinton in and a democratic Congress. They after all are cinservative and do feel sime empathy for how elites have lockedup congress amd let the majority slide. Its sensible to let some fix the US, whichever wins the US is going for a infrastruture boom. Now do they want crazy gridlock or a clear road for whoever is President.
And then you have, if crazy gets in, Congress having to spend its time talking crazy down. Sure i’d laugh my rocks off but Clinton going to win, Moore is just rightly underlning how the Clinton admin has a problem to address.
CV, you forgot the space between < Bloc…..
good luck though.
Moore’s latest letter asking for readers to dump Trump and the rest of the Republican rabble:
“Thank you for letting the American public see your true (orange) face. I’m glad you “grabbed” our attention and mobIlized the masses against you. The only thing sweeter than seeing the lot of you gone would be a 50-state sweep for Hillary.”
Moore clearly prefers Clinton above Trump. But he also gets why Trump’s support base is huge and very motivated. And in the main, it’s not because they are “deplorables” and “irredeemables”.
Sort of. I think bigots are deplorable and mostly irredeemable. But there aren’t enough of them to win diddly.
Most of Trumps support comes from people who always vote Republican. His problem is that while he’s got the support of those that would vote for any Republican candidate, no matter how awful, he has failed to convince a significant minority of Republican voters (those with some sense of decency) to join in. Add to that the obvious fact that rather than win over the women, blacks and latinos he needs for victory he has actively alienated them instead and we find Trump staring down the barrel of a loss of historic proportions.
And, as Mike Moore hopes, that should also ankle tap the senate and house republicans too.
Really, there is nothing new in Trump. The world has seen would be populists braying to the masses many times before. The really great thing about this campaign is that it turns out the American public aren’t as dumb as he’d like to think they are.
Trump’s support may come mostly from people who used to vote Republican, but this year they are voting for Trump, an independent ticket linked to the Republican Party.
Or in simpler terms, 54% of Trump’s voters, more than any other candidate in recent history, are voting for him purely because he has an R next to his name, not because they actually like him.
Do you believe that 538 will be right about Trump this time, after being wrong about him losing all previous times? 😛
538 predicted that Trump would win many of the individual state primaries that he did actually win, and predicted that he was on track for winning the nomination, after they set up their model and it clearly showed he was winning in the polls. Just like their model says he has only ~15% chance of winning the election now – he could still win according to their predictions.
Anyway, you haven’t addressed the point, that more people are voting for Donald because he has an R next to his name, than because they actually like him or anything he is saying.
Ie all your rubbish about most people voting for him because they want him to destroy the system.
You mean Michael Moore’s rubbish.
Moore just said “a lot”.
you added “in the main”. One is a relative quantity, the other is a proportion of his supporters. Two very different things.
Clinton is predicted to smash Trump by 100 or more electoral votes. So I’m sure this is all academic, right?
Either way, there’s no need to misrepresent what Moore said.
Make that a 20% chance now for Trump….
Nate Silver on the subject just 4 hours ago:
True situation IMO is Clinton +2, approx. Many of the polls with Clinton +7 or +10 are rigged.
“Many of the polls with Clinton +7 or +10 are rigged.”
He says without any evidence whatsoever
Its my opinion, based on known Clinton campaign advice to pollsters on how they can rig their polls.
“Known Clinton campaign advice to pollsters on how they can rig their polls.”
bets on whether he’s talking about some ambiguously-worded conspiracy to manipulate polls the dems release to the press when they expected the election to be close, rather than a nefarious plan to have every poll in the country “rigged”?
BTW – The Wikileaks Podesta emails aren’t evidence
I take it you are referring to the Popular Vote here.
An analysis of the 22 nation wide polls has Clinton currently at 49.5% and Trump at 43.6%, a difference of around 6% where it has remained since the second debate.
Bear in mind that Trump is one of the most unpopular candidates ever in recent history and that the popular vote gap is way wider than that between Obama and Romney in the 2012 election. There is only a slim chance of an upset on Nov 8, less than 20% for Trump.
BTW, Oversampling of a target demographic is a perfectly legitimate mathematical technique and should in no way be confused with rigging.
Macro: then what is the justification for having poll samples where registered Democrats out number registered Republicans by 1.3x or more (when the real life number is around 1.13x), and where registered Independents make up only around a quarter of the sample (when the real life number is in the high 30% to 40-ish % range).
That’s clear over-sampling of Democrat leaning voters and clear under-sampling of Republican leaning voters.
“more people are voting for Donald because he has an R next to his name”
Why do you conclude that Lanthanide? The extract from 538 you quoted said “The most interesting thing about these numbers is how few of Trump’s supporters are his fans.“.
That’s because most who intend to cast a vote for him are against Hillary Clinton mostly.
To my mind that supports Moore’s conjecture that many people will vote Trump in order to give the finger to what they perceive as an establishment that has left them high and dry in various ways.
Surely it’s less likely that ‘moderate’ republicans are willing to stomach Trump just because he’s on the ticket with an ‘R’ next to his name?
They will vote for him because giving a finger to Hillary amounts, in their eyes, to giving a finger to the system they see as corrupt, captured and not operating in their interests. What better way to give a finger to established interests than showing that you will even support Trump in order to make the point?
The economist Frank’s analysis of how showing that you are wiling to even go berserk (and against what may rationally be considered your interests) is one strategy to ensure that, in the future, you won’t have to push the nuclear button so often. You gain ‘respect’ by demonstrating ‘commitment’ to sacrifice something dear to you (e.g., a reasonable person putting up with being called a racist for voting for Trump).
Being known to get emotional and not put up with things is often a good strategy – even if it confers overall losses as a direct consequence of acting in that way (It’s beyond the paywall but the article is ‘Beyond Self-Interest’ by Robert Frank in the journal Challenge).
Maybe Trump voters (and some of his actual supporters) may well be motivated in this way – it would explain a lot, including the fact that they could disagree with his racist, etc. outpourings.
That’s one of the outcomes of this bizarre situation: there’ll be a whole bunch of traditional republican voters voting for Clinton because they see Trump as wild and unpredictable and Clinton as mainstream establishment and therefore, ironically, more republican than Trump; and there’ll be a whole bunch of democrats voting for Trump because they’re pissed off Bernie didn’t get the nomination and they want to see the whole caboodle upended including the GNP.
On top of that there’ll also be a bunch of democrats voting for Trump because they see his unpredictability as a safer bet when it comes to potential war in the middle east and elsewhere compared to Clinton’s track-record. And to counter that there’ll be a bunch of others from both sides who’ve switched to Clinton because of recent revelations around Trump’s treatment of women.
If these tend to balance things a bit then Trump might still get in if the polls are defied by an apathetic voter turnout, brought about because of how bloody bizarre the whole thing’s become.
Welcome back CV. I’ve missed you(and was hoping you wouldn’t spit the dummy and leave permanently).
Most kind, Garibaldi, and thank you for your comments.
Same goes here CV. Good to see you back!
Cheers – enjoy your Fri evening and weekend, Liberal Realist.
I for one appreciate your views on this subject.
Yeah, like he said. Good to see you CV 🙂
Much appreciated Manuka AOR 😀
I had the same hope Garibaldi, and kept an eye out for CV’s name this morning. Good to see you back again CV.
Its like the good old days when Moscow would send out its message to the Socialist Unity Party in NZ, who would stick with it through thick and thin.
And Michael Moore is getting these love telegrams from Moscow too?
Come now, get serious. Moore knows the people on the ground in the poorest most deprived areas of Michigan. If you listen to what Moore has to say in the audio excerpt, I doubt that you’ll conclude the message came from Russia.
As you say further down, Moore hates Trump ( and wants voters to support Clinton).
So that only leaves you following the ‘Moscow line’
In normal times , no way would you even consider Trump, with his racist and misogynist views – which Im sure you have notrack with any of that.
Trumps concern for workers is a fairly shallow puddle, they only other reason for your interest is his accommodation with Moscow and him wanting to crack the nato alliance.
You say that like its a bad thing.The only reason that the Cold War didn’t end up destroying the Earth with nuclear weapons was “accommodation” between D.C. and Moscow.
Rational accommodation (and luck).
What happens when that “accommodation” goes south like so many of his business deals, and he tries to bully-boy putin?
“In normal times , no way would you even consider Trump, with his racist and misogynist views – which Im sure you have notrack with any of that.”
much as some would hope and pray that that was true – the reality is it isn’t – I suspect that is one of the pressures moving him from the left – the living a lie bit.
CV did you watch the full 45 min movie?
No, just read some reviews of it.
Cheers Olwyn, and I appreciate your level headed comments always.
Yep nice to see you back CV.
+100 Garibaldi (btw I have been away too on the Daily Blog…and I have to say it wasn’t too difficult!…)
…and Good Post CV!…Michael Moore is very articulate ! I am sure many will be listening to his subliminal subtext…and voting accordingly in the privacy of actually casting their votes…I noted the audience looked pretty serious and were listening intently
Don’t you find that when commenting on TDB that; your comments just disappear into a moderation mystery land, and when they do finally appear contain typos that you wish you’d been able to edit? Maybe it’s just me (as I have been critical of Bradbury in past comments).
I certainly think the posts there are often worth reading, but the commenting system is crap.
@ Pasupial….yes the commenting system is different and there are time lags ( for moderation ?)
…but although frustrating at times this isn’t necessarily a bad thing because replies can be considered…so less scope for bullying and abuse and heated provocation
Hi Chooky 🙂
Hi CV…good to see you back …like your Posts and oversight of them
Forgive me, but I do think Trump is unusual – he was considered over the top even twenty five years ago when he got satirised as Clamp in Gremlins II.
I don’t think anyone, not even Clinton and her team, thinks all trump supporters are deplorable or irredeemable… but there is a group of them that certainly are. You might say the same about some of Clinton’s supporters as well – the group on both sides that get into this stuff with all of the rationality of religious zealots.
But Moore is right, go beyond that group and you see Trump getting support from the disillusioned. They want change, real change, as much for its own sake as for the expectation it will be an improvement. They probably think Trump is full of it, but he might not be, and they’d be willing to find out.
In this model of the world, the more shrill and demonising the MSM are of Trump (and of BREXIT) the more these voters will conclude that they are on the right track.
Or as Moore describes it
And just what if. what if years of rigging the system,overtly and underhandedly, those election systems, along with automaton ic republicians, all make any Republician a siazeable home state advantage, and with democratic manufacturing states fedup vote Trump…
In one fell swoop Republicians will vomit Trump and Democrats will win in 2020 in a landslide.
But you do know it doesn’t matter who wins right.
People do not really vote on the issues or policies. They vote on an emotional level. So if the dispossessed Middle Class feel angry enough they will vote for Trump. In spite of the crazy stuff Trump has done/said. I think that in Florida Trump has a lead over Clinton. Weird but then look at the Icelandic Pirate Party expecting to win on Saturday.
Clinton is leading in Florida by anywhere from 2 to 4 percent. Johnson is still polling between 3 to 5 percent so it may come down to where those people actually place their votes on polling day. I believe the early polling in Florida is seeing fewer registered Republicans voting earlier. Also there has been quite a large influx of Puerto Ricans in the last few years into Florida who tend to swing to the Democrats. Trump does need Florida to win though and it is looking an uphill struggle for him.
Check out how many Haitians live in Florida now. Then check-out how much Obama won Florida by in 2012
Ok, done. Now what?
Pirates will be largest opposition party.
dukeofurl. Pirates will be the largest Party and have another party to wrap up the majority as the ruling Party.
We will see about that ?
“Iceland uses a proportional representation system so the party’s current level of support will likely translate into about 15 seats in the 63-member Althingi.”
I always like to see more than one poll. this image shows quite a bit of volatility.
And the Pirates dropping from their peak
The film is being shown on TV One on Tuesday November 1 at 9.30pm.
So it’s the old ‘I’m going down and I’m taking you with me’ trope. I’d rather we both lose massively than risk you winning (again).
Any insight on why Sanders or Stein never got through to these forgotten? (Surely not because they had some ugly policy or history – so does Trump.)
“Moore knows that Trump may not mean a thing he says, Trump may not end up changing a thing, and although Moore seems sure that these same people are going to eventually regret voting for Trump it is very predictable what they will still choose to do”
That sentence sums it up well. Desperate people cling to any life-raft they can – I don’t blame them for being desperate or for clinging to some belief that trump will do what he says when all evidence says the opposite – no, I blame trump and his voracious vocal supporters for taking advantage of others desperation for trumps own monetising goals. Once that reality is understood the whole travelling salvation show from trump makes more sense – it is evangelical and mirrors alot of the characteristics of that phenomena right down to ‘brother love’ imo.
Pretty sweet track, really nice!
Voting as therapy rarely ends well. Generally it ends in tears.
Disrupting “the system” isn’t enough, and is usually too much.
If Trump and the Republican Party had a transformative agenda, and were unified and swept Presidency, Senate, and Congress, we’d have ….
…. oh wait we’d have the Bushes back.
Pinning all your hopes on one person, no matter how much swagger and charisma they have, isn’t ever enough for the kind of disruption I suspect that you want.
Having supporters isn’t enough. As we’ve seen all around the democratic world.
Even, having supporters, and party unity rarely cuts it.
You need: a good person, with party support, who understands the system, has coherent policies, can control the legislature, and is in there for many years.
Helen Clark types. Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama types. Bob Hawke types. If you like it slightly authoritarian like Trump does, he should have played his game as well as Lee Kwan Yew. That’s how you change a whole country and a whole people for good. I don’t see Michael Moore getting any of this.
So Trump talks the talk about jobs for US workers?
A Newsweek investigation has found that in at least two of Trump’s last three construction projects, Trump opted to purchase his steel and aluminum from Chinese manufacturers rather than United States corporations based in states like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin.
“Of Trump’s last three construction projects, the first to use Chinese steel was Trump International Hotel Las Vegas, which opened in 2008.
Another recent Trump building that has used metal from China is Trump International Hotel and Tower in Chicago, which opened in 2009.
So he talks about American jobs but does differently- as you would expect a billionaire realestate developer turned politician to just say these things. Much like the clothing range that bears his name- American jobs?
Yes that too is from China
Ok so some very decent people may support Trump for their own laudable reasons. The guy is still an idiot and the biggest threat to world peace that we have. Still no reason for anyone to support him.
I would tend to disagree. IMO unipolar American exceptionalism as expressed and practiced by the US foreign policy neocon set is the “biggest threat to world peace that we have.”
This is the group of people who think that stationing NATO bases and heavy weapons right off the border with Russia is a good idea.
This is the group of people who believe in illegal regime change, funding the destabilisation of sovereign governments, and providing arms and military training to Islamic extremists and jihadists in order to use them as proxy regime change tools.
This is the group of people who think that unilateral withdrawal from the ABM treaty and unilateral abrogation of the terms of weapons grade plutonium agreement are a good idea.
This is the group of people who think that demonising Russia, a long time nuclear partner, as an election campaign strategy is smart.
This is the group of people who think that ramping up military tensions with Russia and China at every turn is productive.
Donald Trump is not in with these people. That’s why the D.C. / military industrial establishment want him finished, and they want their hand picked proven pro-regime change player in instead.
Especially since his love for american workers isnt based on any previous actions.
It seems to me his rhetoric comes from internal polls which show support from white working class males, so the speaking points are just empty words
Now, is that your public position on the matter, or your Wall St funded big foreign corporation sponsored private position on the matter?
Wall St Funded?
You do realise the speaking fees – which are much the same as any big wigs in US, and Clinton has spoken to many groups for the same price- would be at the bonus level of a single low -medium level trader ($250K).
Im sure the monthly limo bill at Goldman Sachs would be much the same as Clintons speaking fee.
Its laughable that the money would buy any influence- at that price .
Her campaign could be spending up to the $1bill level.
I’ll be doing another post on how corporate money and foreign money bought access to the State Department, bought access to the Clintons, and bought big money contracts for major donors and “FOBs” (Friends of Bill).
Will you be pretending that the Clinton Foundation is the same as Hillary’s personal bank account?
Bob Woodward agrees that the Clinton Foundation is an utterly corrupt enterprise and I tend to agree.
Of course you do because it fits in with preconceptions
Who does woodward agree with? You agree with him agreeing with you?
The organisations that rate charities disagree with both of you.
Clinton’s tax returns disagree with both of you.
Bob Woodward agrees that the Clinton Foundation is an utterly corrupt
Bob Woodward also believed that Iraq had ‘weapons of mass destruction’.
“During an appearance on Larry King Live, he was asked by a telephone caller, “Suppose we go to war and go into Iraq and there are no weapons of mass destruction”, Woodward responded “I think the chance of that happening is about zero. There’s just too much there.”” [Ref: FRONTLINE. “Interviews – Bob Woodward | News War | FRONTLINE | PBS”]
There are reasons why the US was so confident that Iraq had WMD.
“Bob Woodward agrees that the Clinton Foundation is an utterly corrupt enterprise and I tend to agree.”
hes an idiot
“Woodward has certainly shown in recent years that he doesn’t have his finger on the pulse on Democratic politics. Three years ago he claimed Hillary Clinton might replace Vice President Joe Biden on the Democratic ticket in 2012. (Then again he once predicted Dick Cheney would be the Republican nominee in 2008.) ”
“But it’s Woodward’s reporting during the Bush administration that best debunks the farcical the notion that he is a “liberal” ally. He did that both through his fawning coverage of the Bush White House, especially in the early years, and by becoming a major player in the scandal surrounding CIA operative Valerie Plame.”
Woodward is just another Faux News Fuckwit. Regular with Hannity and the other shows which throw shit at the Clintons.
Thats fine, but please dont try to make some sort of saint Bob who actually knows stuff along the lines here of Hagar
In “All the President’s Men” he said he was a Republican.
Will you be sourcing your post with RT and other propaganda sources?
Is Bob Woodward a Russian agent too?
I said other propaganda sources (i.e. like Fox News where Woodward frequently appears).
Would you prefer that I use DC approved propaganda sources? Radio Free Europe? CNN? New York Times? Huffington Post? VOX? Politico?
No hes not a Russian agent. Just needs to make a living having regular gig on Fox News
“Woodward, who appears often on Fox News shows to discuss Clinton’s recent travails—
her appearance before the House Select Committee on Benghazi, controversial donations to the Clinton Foundation,
the investigation into her use of a private email server as secretary of state,
and her refusal to release transcripts of her Wall Street speeches.
Fox news cant get enough Clinton haters, next thing Woodward will be on RT America too.
oh too late
Nothing wrong with RT or Fox News or the Washington Times or Al Jazeera as part of the mix. Every media channel has its biases.
The most important thing is to diversify off imperial MSM corporate media.
So Woodward as a commentator on Fox news and RT says Clinton foundation is corrupt.
Must be what the paper he works for has looked at in depth and agrees with ?
“The emails show that, in these and similar cases, the donors did not always get what they wanted, particularly when they sought anything more than a meeting.”
A meeting, so thats corrupt right ? A meeting.!
Not really, WP, where Woodward is some sort no- writing editor seems to not find much at all when it comes to ‘Clintons corruption’. You have to wonder what Woodward knows that his newspaper doesnt. You arent going to booked unless you hate Clinton anytime soon on RT or Fox News
eg Why the latest Hillary Clinton conspiracy might not be what it seems
Canny of you in how you try to legitimise dodgy two propaganda outlets by associating them with WT and AJ and trying to minimise their blatant agendas as a not to worry about bias.
But it won’t work, comradeski. Some of us are a little bit smarter than to fall for that one.
What are you smoking? Or more to the point, what do you think we are?
And yes, there’s plenty wrong with Fox and Putins gangster state mouthpiece.
will you put ALL the facts out there including where claims have been disproved and shown to be deliberate personal hatred and/or disinformation dirty trick-like campaigning, and will you let people decide for themselves or will you slant everything to make clinton look bad
I understand your contention that Trump is an idiot, but as for “biggest threat to world peace that we have” – that’s groundless hyperbole.
I reckon you may not have considered the role of the US foreign policy neocons who see the world purely in a unipolar, American exceptionalism context.
These are the same people who think that it is a good idea to conduct illegal programmes of regime change and sovereign government destabilisation throughout the world, while ramping up military tensions against China and Russia in both China and Russia’s own backyards, funding/training ultimately uncontrollable Islamic jihadists to use as proxy armies, unilaterally backing out of the ABM treaty and unilaterally abrogating the terms of the weapons grade plutonium disposal treaty, etc.
NB that’s Hillary’s crowd, not Trump’s.
For me, the point is people are grasping at extreme solutions because of their outrage about the dismal failure of neo-liberalism (“Everything is rigged.”) imposed by make believe democracy (“You don’t need referendums because if you elect me I’ll pretend to do something.”).
An increasing percent of the population know neo-liberal pseudo democracy has destroyed their hopes and dreams at the price of enriching the corrupt elite. Extremists left and right are ready to rip the system apart.
I wish I could say NZ Labour could fix it, but they can’t because substantive change requires a lot of oxen being gored. It requires a Yanis Vroufakis, Corbyn, Sanders, the Pirate party, the Italian Five Star party, and alike. By comparison, Cunliffe is a timid radical. But that is enough for the parliamentary Labour party to destroy his character (“Cunliffe is a liar”) and banish him to the back benches.
Trump IS dangerous, but without responsible radicals people will vote for him.
I’m not sure Putin isn’t a greater threat – does not lack ambition & tends to realise them militarily. That said, the US used to have a notion of ‘the right stuff’ for presidency (or space flight). Trump never had the right stuff – shouldn’t be in the running.
what exactly do you think Putin is a threat to? Declining and unsustainable unipolar American exceptionalism and hegemony?
While he certainly does threaten that, he is by no means an ambassador of humanism or civilisation. He raises the chances of a superpower confrontation, raises civilian casualties in his areas of operations, and tends to suppress democracy in places that interest him – Ukraine, Syria, Chechnya, Ingushetia, and of course, Russia.
If you want a brutal and unapologetic military dictatorship, Putin is your man. His real gift to the middle east looks set to be the kind of proxy war that devastated places like Lebanon for decades. It would be an exaggeration to say he threatens peace because Syria and Iraq are not at peace – but he tends to escalate conflicts. This has served him well against the tiny former-soviet satellites, but whether it will continue to work, and whether it is desirable that it should work remains to be seen. Survivors of the 20th century Russian expansion are not keen for a replay.
Where do you get this ridiculous tripe from? Firstly Putin has the popular support of 80% plus of the Russian voting public. That’ more than Obama, or May, or Merkel or John Key can get.
Now remind me – who in the 1990s applied sanctions to Iraq which killed half a million Iraqi children – and then said on TV that it was worthwhile?
Cluetip: the USA.
Remind me – who backed a completely undemocratic and unconstitutional change of government in Kiev?
Cluetip: the USA.
Remind me – who is operating their military forces in and over Syria completely illegally and without permission of Syria’s sovereign government?
Cluetip: the USA.
Remind me – why did the former USSR occupy half of Europe in the mid 20th century?
Cluetip: A major western European power decided to invade the USSR and kill approx 27M Soviet citizens.
I think Putin is demonized by the west because he insists on maintaining the economic and political independence and sovereignty of Russia. No more, no less.
As for mid 20th Century Russian (USSR) expansion: can you please remind me how it was that the USSR ended up in half of Europe?
Did you forget that small matter of a major western European power brutally invading the USSR and killing approx 27M Soviet citizens?
Though the West may be demonising Putin they are doing so on objective grounds. The Chechen genocide is enough to damn him on its own, and it is not on its own.
How did Russia end up with half of Europe? They cut a deal with Hitler, with whom they were happy to make such deals.
Then, when Hitler backstabbed them, the Allies made a pragmatic decision to lend Russia massive materiale support to prevent Germany consolidating its gains. When the German forces collapsed or were beaten the Russians advanced into the countries the Germans had taken, and in the end Germany itself.
The pact included the division of Poland between Russia and Germany – so don’t make them out to be martyrs – the Russians started the war as dirty as Hitler.
I won’t accuse you of forgetting this, because it seems more likely you have omitted it deliberately as an inconvenient truth that does not serve your intentionally deceptive narrative.
IF I went on principles I would vote for neither. Why compromise when they are so jolly awful, I mean you are supposed to vote for something that represents what you believe, not the better of two complete no hopers.
Pragmatic voting can be a highly ethical act.
“I mean you are supposed to vote for something that represents what you believe, not the better of two complete no hopers.”
NO Vote Trump I was a FOOOOOL.
Trump will save the planet, it will be tremendous, absolutely brilliant.
Michael Moore does not support Trump. He loathes him. I was curious to see CV quoting from Moore so against my better instincts I read his post and found the usual misleading and selective material.
Check out Moore’s twitter account to find out what Moore really thinks of Trump and why he is now an avid supporter of Clinton.
You don’t need to join twitter to read them.
Michael Moore @MMFlint Oct 26
Michael Moore Retweeted Roxanne Wright
They’re only helping us by sending thousands of Trump voters to iTunes to watch my movie http://bit.ly/trumpland . Then the truth’ll hit ’em.Michael Moore added,
Roxanne Wright @roxannelwright
@MMFlint, sadly,Trump supporters are now sharing a 4 min portion of your video making it look like you support Trump 100%. Not a good thing.
The post’s central claim is that Moore “gets Trump’s appeal and support base”, not that Moore supports Trump.
What Moore says in in line with what Rebecca Solnit has been saying about the demonisation and simple caricature of the working class offered up by mainstream news outlets.
Also reminds me of a piece I read in (I think) The Canary about the Brexit vote. Post vote survey apparently showed that people votes ‘out’ because of austerity and not because of immigration.
But ‘working class stupid racists’ is apparently an easier line to run with anyway. 🙁
Huge pity CV didn’t write posts and comments like this for the past 6 months then, and instead has been flaming anti-liberal/anti-left antagonism all over the place (I note that he still can’t help but poke that particular bigotry into the mix even in this post).
I’ve just had a chance to look in on progress on this thought provoking post to find weka still has head and nose looking down, if not back. How about you take a brake (intended double meaning) so things can further settle down, ay
Michael Moore has been documenting and understanding working class alienation and betrayal his whole career.
Trump’s just exploiting that same dynamic, and CV and Trump are both misrepresenting Moore’s critique. And CV does this in a highly disingenuous rather than ‘thought provoking’ manner.
Check out Moore’s take on the ‘vile and disgusting candidate’ and how he’s misrepresented his film:
You forgot to detail out where I misrepresented Moore’s critique.
Not only did I give people links to find out more about the Trumpland production themselves, but I made it clear in my post that Moore is confident that Trump supporters are going to regret supporting Trump.
My point stands: Moore understands better than most people why so many good, decent folk in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin are going to vote Trump.
The title of the post and the general thrust suggests Moore is much more sympathetic to Trump than he actually is. I am a big fan of Moore and got irritated enough to respond. In future, I will go back to ignoring CV’s posts and comments, although I do accept he has plenty of fans on The Standard..
Karen: if you want to accuse me of being misleading, perhaps you should avoid falling into the same trap yourself.
And CV never said that Moore did support Trump…So your point is?
I made it clear in the post that Moore thinks that all these Trump supporters are eventually going to regret voting for him. This is not an endorsement from Moore; it is an explanation.
yep and they will turn on trump and his flunkies when they realise they have been lied to, duped and treated like imbeciles – wouldn’t like to be wearing I love trumpie tee then.
I believe my version will be just as true, if not more so 😛
not sure quote marks are needed there – I’m sure you’ll be long gone anyway – probably switched sides again by then, 😉 you’ll pointing the finger at trumpees saying,”they bad, I told you so.” – lol it will end up being sorta funny – if anyone is there to see it of course – but once again – not your problem eh
If Clinton wins, which remains a possibility, I think the repercussions of her Presidency will give me two or three glorious, if ultimately unsatisfying, years of saying “I told you so” 😛
I’m sure that will be personally pleasurable for you in the comfort of your own home. Sadly when you proclaim outside there you’ll be saying I told you so to people who already know and have thought about it with consideration, and insight in frankly a lot more depth than yourself I’d say. That is one of your more obvious blindspots in this race to the president.
There is nothing comforting about WW 3, even if you live in NZ.
By the way, I don’t think Clinton will cause WW 3. I think we are already in it.
” I think we are already in it.”
Cold War 1.5 ?
Correct, the USA is bombing seven (7!) countries at the moment.
lol…CV…re “I told you so”
yes it does place one in a bit of a dilemma as to who to hope wins
…Trump is sure to commit some heinous horrible pipeline environmental damage ( in which case I will retire from this site)
…Clinton is a hypocritical venal corrupt Democrat with no moral compass…and a loose canon on Foreign Policy (and could start WW3 in which case it will end all arguments here…which could be a plus)
Meanwhile under the Obama administration, activist film makers arrested at the recent North Dakota tar sands pipeline shutdown have been charged with enough felony crimes to imprison them for up to 45 years.
This is plain and simple intimidation of independent environmental journalism by the US government, no ifs or buts.
” Moore thinks that all these Trump supporters are eventually going to regret voting for him”
That isint what you say in your headline:
Michael Moore: why blowing up the system and voting for Trump will feel good
Very neat journalistic trick: The headline says what YOU want to say, the disclaimer is hidden elsewhere
however they may regret voting for Hillary even more
are you michael moore – or how the hell would you know and why should anything YOU say be taken as credible compared to Moore.
? again incomprehensible
moore – Moore thinks that all these Trump supporters are eventually going to regret voting for him
kooky – however they may regret voting for Hillary even more
marty – why should we listen to you not michael moore?
kooky – ???
As a simpleton, Trump offers simple answers to complex questions. This can be very appealing. However, I do have to wonder how many woman told Moore that they were for considering voting for that creep? His; “now the wife and kids are gone” line (quoted in OP) suggests that not many were asked.
Here is the “simpleton”…from the horses mouth
Trump will need to hold the gender gap to Romney/Obama 2012 or less in order to win. If women break for Clinton +20% on election day, Trump is toast.
That does have some nice editing, but I’m assuming that someone else wrote most of the script. When we see Trump on the spot answering a question in a debate or interview, his speech is more limited.
I’m not saying that his speaking manner isn’t effective with connecting with some voters. But I am saying that the world is more complex than his slogans. I guess it comes down to whether facts matter to you.
Only the losing side will never fulfill its expectations- so in that respect you are right.
Its a politician you vote for, not membership of a church with an all wise and knowing deity.
LMAO, as they gazed up to see the approaching ICBM a everlasting shout was heard across the face of planet earth.
“I knew I should have ticked the other box.”
Either way same result.
Moore is absolutely correct.
What this election has shown is how unpopular the “Establishment” and Elite really are in the US.
Trump destroyed the Republican Primary favourites and he is giving Hillary the race of her life.
With the skeleton in Trumps’ cupboard the only way to explain it is America has had enough of the system they are in.
+100 Enough is Enough …re “What this election has shown is how unpopular the “Establishment” and Elite really are in the US.”
…and the Clintons and Democrats are corrupt in so many ways
Many who vote for Trump are thoughtful conservatives…not “deplorables” or morons
‘TRUMP – THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN SAVE AMERICA’
– 101 comrade kcoocyyh
incomprehensible as usual
you are the fan of Hillary and the Democrats ( because you think they are non racist … unlike Trump)…yet look what she did to Gaddafi? ( and false accusations of rape)
– 101 again
in answer to your question – no.
trump lie on gaddafi – 4 bits of evidence – sorry couldn’t be bothered putting all 331,000 results in
Hillary Clinton has form as a warmonger and racist …Trump does not (yet):
The real racism of the United States …but Nelson Mandela was not fooled
‘From ‘mad dog’ to ‘model’ and back: How West changed its mind on Libya’s Gaddafi’
…”Among the world leaders saddened by Gaddafi’s death was Nelson Mandela, the first black president of South Africa. “In the darkest moments of our struggle, when our backs were to the wall, Muammar Gaddafi stood with us,” he said.
…”In 1997, Mandela defied the UN embargo to visit Gaddafi and thank him for his support during the anti-apartheid struggle. US President Bill Clinton called the visit “unwelcome.”
“No country can claim to be the policeman of the world and no state can dictate to another what it should do,” replied the former political prisoner.
“A lot” aren’t irredeemables? Nice to know.
Trump has actually been trying to change his approach since the primaries (although the real T still leaks through, like when the black guy asked him about presidential qualities and Trump went off about inner city crime lol).
But ‘build a wall to keep the rapists and murderers out’ isn’t exactly appealing to the middle class, and he sure isn’t backing away from that sort of position.
And his audience members seem… more colourful in some ways than others.
So, to paraphrase Trump: they’re racists, they’re rednecks, and some of them, I’m sure, are middle class people…
Maybe he should compile his bigly aphorisms: Trump’s Little Orange Book
Its refreshing to have CV open an honest debate. No doubt there is increasing disbelief and disdain of politics & politicians and civics in general by a broad range of people.
The people at the “defined’ bottom that exist outside of the tax / benefit system – really dont give a shit.
The “middle” defined people are struggling and big tax is a burdon for them and their kids. And this tax band is the engine room of the tax system, it funds almost everything.
The well off, well they dont trust anyone outside of themselves.
Then the whole political layer, this is their ride and any cause that requires funding is gauranteed to get their attention. People are getting sick of paying for this shit.
Its easy to see why populations are starting to understand that having career elected officials represent their views and future good prospects is futile and delivers nothing.
Unless of course the well off need the rest of us to hold onto their station.
What is it about a flamboyant millionaire that appeals to poor white conservatives? Why do they believe a Trump presidency would amplify their voices? The answer may lie in America’s historical relationship between the wealthiest class and the army of poor whites who have loyally supported them.
From the time of slavery (yes, slavery) to the rise of Donald Trump, wealthy elites have relied on the allegiance of the white underclass to retain their affluence and political power. To understand this dynamic, to see through the eyes of poor and working class whites as they chant, “Trump, Trump, Trump,” let’s look back at a few unsavory slices of America’s capitalist pie
Yeah….well , you are on to it Joe….some real nice reading & linking there. What do you think?
given that 7 out of 10 Americans can’t even find $1000 in their bank account after 8 years of Obama rule, do you have an explanation for why the Democrats are continuing a massive underclass which will support the Republicans
And since the Clintons have accumulated $250M or more of personal wealth since WJC left office, do you count them amongst the scum bag “wealthy elites” who use the underclass for their own political purposes?
Well, dare we all say it, a lot of politicos are pretty well off, and they have they have the time &/or luxuary to debate &/or moan.
Not easy to debate &/or moan when you are fixing plasterboard or stuffing batts into houses for a living.
Your words sport, not mine, and you’re the one with a boner for the NYC blue blood.
You added nothing Joe , why even bother. Spark up when you have something meaningful to contribute.
Who the fuck are you to turn up late to the party and demand a rundown of the past six months.
Fuck you and your horse, trole.
Hi joe90, you are quite right sorry I will recast my careless phrasing: with over $250M personal net worth do you consider the Clintons as part of the “wealthy elite” of the USA?
As I’ve said before, CV, the American culture is one of consumption, not savings.
Saying 70% of Americans don’t have $1k in savings seems bad on the face of it – but you can also interpret that as many Americans being hopeful for their future prosperity, so they see no need to save and are happy to spend everything they earn.
Contrast with the cultural attitudes in China, where people, peasants especially, save as much money as possible, because there is little in the way of government support and they expect to face tough times in the future.
OK I can see the glass half full point that you are trying to make, but I’d suggest that it could also be seen as a lot of burnishing of the turd.
Trump’s base are poorly educated yet comfortably off white male Protestants. He’s not getting support from actual poor people (except for the usual suspect states in the South), and he is not going to win Michigan or Pennsylvania or Wisconsin. He might win Ohio, but that’s it as far as the Rust Belt is concerned.
As for Lefties liking Trump (a phenomenon largely limited to those who wouldn’t actually have to suffer under him), supporting a fascist because the opposition isn’t left-wing enough has some tragic precedent. Frankly, and speaking as an ardent Lefty, I would back Margaret Thatcher over Donald Trump.
Wow, we have found it , here is the oracle on identifying the poorly eduacted. You best look out out you dumb schmucks!
We all bow in your presence , oh mighty mage!
Um, try taking a look at the polling crosstabs. They often break down by age, ethnicity, gender, income, level of education, and religion, Trump does terribly among young people, non-whites, women, the poor, the educated, and non-Protestants.
Nice one DS, unfortuntaly you still dont get get the debate.
Its not the matter of liking Trump, its failure in belief of the system.
So you believe that Clinton is going to beat Trump in the popular vote by around +10 percentage points? Therefore a landslide for Clinton by a hundred or more electoral votes?
7-10 points, yes. At this stage, a Hillary +12 would surprise me less than a Hillary +3.
As far as EVs go, she’s looking at Obama 2012 + North Carolina + Nebraska’s 2nd Congressional District. Arizona is pure toss-up, and after that, in ascending order of difficulty, Georgia, Alaska, South Carolina, and Texas. Utah remains a wildcard because of McMullin splitting the right-wing vote.
Even if it were close, any Republican (not just Trump) runs into the Blue Wall problem. Hillary only needs those states John Kerry won in 2004, plus Virginia and Colorado, and she’s won. Doesn’t matter if Trump wins Iowa, Nevada, Ohio, and Florida.
I think Hillary is only +2 up on Trump currently hence the massive and ongoing attacks on him; I will be extremely surprised if she pulls a +7 or +10 on the popular vote. Not saying it is impossible though. As for the Blue Wall problem yep that is a real one which faces any and every Repub candidate.
Yep, reading your notes is similar to reading the run down of the Melbourne Cup stakes by starter. All “lite facts”, but no real awareness .
Yeah, Clinton will win by a landslide and it will be the better result , unbelievable as it may seem, as Clinton is amazingly hopeless. However Trump is an idiot, but my god there is some real anger out there.
Well the Clintons can’t be that hopeless; when they left the White House they were just about broke but in the mean time they have amassed $250M or more personal fortune.
I just find that amazing and very depressing CV.
Indeed. Forbes says the Clintons made US$230M or more since leaving the White House.
Someone should ask – what value and what favours did the Clintons deliver to their clients and donors in return for all that wealth.
Same For Blair?
How did we end up with these two?
My best guess is that the establishment would have been fine with either Jeb Bush or Hillary Clinton; but they eventually chose Clinton and discarded Jeb, instead deciding to promote a weak outsider “Pied Piper” candidate in Trump as someone that Clinton should have no trouble running over and leaving on the side of the street as political road kill.
Except that Trump has performed rather unexpectedly well.
Just ignoring that most of the establishment has been vocally against Trump, and that he won by a public primary.
In other words, denying reality.
Party insiders picking the nominee hasn’t happened since 1966.
I love your faith in the US democratic process, good on ya mate.
If you want to deny reality, fine, just don’t pretend you have some sort of inside information about ‘what is really happening’, because you don’t.
Michael Moore is vociferously campaigning *for* Hillary Clinton. Understanding Trump’s appeal is not the same as condoning it.
And Trump supported American auto companies stopping jobs from going? Give me a break! He shipped jobs to low-wage nations in Asia by making all his products there. Obama was the one who bailed out the auto industry and protected hundreds of thousands of factory jobs.
Donald Trump is a racist, sexist authoritarian billionaire who is looking out only for himself — a man who believes in not paying taxes, enriching himself, all while building a huge tower with his name in gold letters at the top is not a working class here that will save the disaffected people of America.
Electing Donald Trump will be the biggest inhibitor to progressive change, and I’m not just speaking socially but economically too. Hillary Clinton has come out against TPP. Hillary Clinton supports free tuition for tertiary education. Hillary Clinton supports strengthening unions and raising the minimum wage. Hillary Clinton supports paid parental leave and affordable childcare. Hillary Clinton supports greater regulation of the banks and monopolistic industries. Hillary Clinton supports raising taxes on the wealthy. Hillary Clinton wants to ensure the US follows through on its Paris agreement commitments.
Donald Trump will give bigger taxes to the wealthy than Reagan did. Donald Trump wants to reverse federal regulations and freeze more regulations. Trump wants to tear up climate change actions. Trump opposes affordable childcare. Trump doesn’t care about unions or protecting jobs: just look how he himself has treated unions and shipped jobs to low-wage countries.
And while Hillary has flaws, she can be pushed by a strong populist movement and Democrats in congress like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, and others. Bernie Sanders will be chair of the senate budget committee and Elizabeth Warren will be able to block any too industry-friendly regulatory appointments.
“And Trump supported American auto companies stopping jobs from going? Give me a break! He shipped jobs to low-wage nations in Asia by making all his products there. Obama was the one who bailed out the auto industry and protected hundreds of thousands of factory jobs.”
He imported cheap construction materials I am unaware of anything he manufactures as a product you can buy in a shop. But IDNK perhaps he does?
As for what you said about the Auto industry you do know the truth is he went to Detroit stood in front of these execs and said if they moved their manufacturing out of the states to say Mexico like they are planning to currently do, he would slap a 35% tariff on them and no one in the US would buy them.
what you said, who told you that?
you know what Clinton money buys yo favours and time style government does?
It means free trade deals, free rides, and companies don’t pay penalities on importing the goods they used to manufacture in that country therefore free trade means one thing, Companies get to flood china asia india with m,anufacturing and assembly, IE cheap labour costs saving fortunes and pay no penalty for it, they have by their greed and manipulation destroyed the very societies they started off in. Now those very people struggle to pay for the goods they once could. Well FKN DONE.
I have come to my ultimate conclusion of who I would vote for and it’s Trump, however we do it, whatever tool we use, it’s time to break the machine. Sorry. Had enough of corporate life.