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Michael Moore: why blowing up the system and voting for Trump will feel good

Written By: - Date published: 8:24 am, October 28th, 2016 - 182 comments
Categories: capitalism, class war, manufacturing, poverty, socialism, us politics, workers' rights - Tags:

A recently released audio clip from celebrity left wing media icon Michael Moore‘s latest film Trumpland explains perfectly why “Trump’s Election Will Be The Biggest Fuck You Ever Recorded In Human History.” Hearing Moore speak, it seems to me that he “gets” Trump’s appeal and his support base far more than some members of the over-intellectualised liberal elite do.

Firstly Moore debunks the Clinton-worshippers elitist meme that Trump supporters are a “basket of deplorables” and “irredeemables.”

I know a lot of people in Michigan that are planning to vote for Trump and they don’t necessarily agree with him. They’re not racist or redneck, they’re actually pretty decent people and so after talking to a number of them I wanted to write this.

He notes that Trump stood up to auto company execs planning to close US factories down like no one else in the political establishment has.

Donald Trump came to the Detroit Economic Club and stood there in front of Ford Motor executives and said “if you close these factories as you’re planning to do in Detroit and build them in Mexico, I’m going to put a 35% tariff on those cars when you send them back and nobody’s going to buy them.” It was an amazing thing to see. No politician, Republican or Democrat, had ever said anything like that to these executives, and it was music to the ears of people in Michigan and Ohio and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin – the “Brexit” states

Moore goes on to recognise that the former middle class, the now unemployed and underemployed, the individuals and the families have been wrecked by the elite of the USA, have not necessarily lost everything: the country is still, in some ways, a democracy.

And on November 8, although they lost their jobs, although they’ve been foreclose on by the bank, next came the divorce and now the wife and kids are gone, the car’s been repoed, they haven’t had a real vacation in years, they’re stuck with the shitty Obamacare bronze plan where you can’t even get a fucking percocet, they’ve essentially lost everything they had except one thing – the one thing that doesn’t cost them a cent and is guaranteed to them by the American constitution: the right to vote.

Moore knows that Trump may not mean a thing he says, Trump may not end up changing a thing, and although Moore seems sure that these same people are going to eventually regret voting for Trump it is very predictable what they will still choose to do:

So on November 8 the dispossessed will walk into the voting booth, be handed a ballot, close the curtain, and take that lever or felt pen or touchscreen and put a big fucking X in the box by the name of the man who has threatened to upend and overturn the very system that has ruined their lives: Donald J Trump. 

Moore text from Zero Hedge here. Listen to the audio excerpt of Moore speak on YouTube here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pADHLsECWxY

182 comments on “Michael Moore: why blowing up the system and voting for Trump will feel good ”

  1. pat 1

    there will be many who do exactly that and for exactly those reasons……but they will be in the minority.

    • Colonial Viper 1.1

      Yes, we can easily dismiss these people, because…they’ve already been forgotten about by the people who matter – and they know it.

      • pat 1.1.1

        who are these “people that matter”?

        • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1

          the people whose voices aren’t instantly dismissed and mocked in the corridors of power and in the studios of the mainstream corporate media.

          • pat 1.1.1.1.1

            they will be dismissed as much as anyone else…..the impact has already been felt by the Republican Party and may yet turn the US legislature on its head and think it is safe to say their voices will have far reaching impact even if belatedly…..and thats in the face of the usual suspects disdain.

    • aerobubble 1.2

      yes, and lots of republicians will stay home, or think what a Trump victory will do to their party and the US… ..and so vote Clinton in and a democratic Congress. They after all are cinservative and do feel sime empathy for how elites have lockedup congress amd let the majority slide. Its sensible to let some fix the US, whichever wins the US is going for a infrastruture boom. Now do they want crazy gridlock or a clear road for whoever is President.

      And then you have, if crazy gets in, Congress having to spend its time talking crazy down. Sure i’d laugh my rocks off but Clinton going to win, Moore is just rightly underlning how the Clinton admin has a problem to address.

  2. left for dead 2

    CV, you forgot the space between < Bloc…..
    good luck though.

  3. Moore’s latest letter asking for readers to dump Trump and the rest of the Republican rabble:

    “Thank you for letting the American public see your true (orange) face. I’m glad you “grabbed” our attention and mobIlized the masses against you. The only thing sweeter than seeing the lot of you gone would be a 50-state sweep for Hillary.”

    http://michaelmoore.com/trump-is-not-the-only-grabber-who-must-go/

    • Colonial Viper 3.1

      Moore clearly prefers Clinton above Trump. But he also gets why Trump’s support base is huge and very motivated. And in the main, it’s not because they are “deplorables” and “irredeemables”.

      • Sort of. I think bigots are deplorable and mostly irredeemable. But there aren’t enough of them to win diddly.

        Most of Trumps support comes from people who always vote Republican. His problem is that while he’s got the support of those that would vote for any Republican candidate, no matter how awful, he has failed to convince a significant minority of Republican voters (those with some sense of decency) to join in. Add to that the obvious fact that rather than win over the women, blacks and latinos he needs for victory he has actively alienated them instead and we find Trump staring down the barrel of a loss of historic proportions.

        And, as Mike Moore hopes, that should also ankle tap the senate and house republicans too.

        Really, there is nothing new in Trump. The world has seen would be populists braying to the masses many times before. The really great thing about this campaign is that it turns out the American public aren’t as dumb as he’d like to think they are.

        • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1

          Trump’s support may come mostly from people who used to vote Republican, but this year they are voting for Trump, an independent ticket linked to the Republican Party.

          • Lanthanide 3.1.1.1.1

            Not true.

            Right now, 56 percent of Clinton voters say they are mainly for her compared with just 42 percent of the same voters who say they are voting against Trump.

            In the same survey, only 41 percent of Trump supporters say they are voting for him, while 54 percent say they are mostly voting against Clinton.

            That 56 percent of Clinton’s voters are affirmatively supporting her may not seem like a lot, but it’s about average for a presidential candidate.

            The most interesting thing about these numbers is how few of Trump’s supporters are his fans. No candidate since 1980 has had a lower percentage of voters say they plan to cast a vote for their candidate. That includes candidates whose campaigns were viewed as disastrous, including Jimmy Carter in 1980, Michael Dukakis in 1988 and Bob Dole in 1996. (The Republican party basically gave up on Dole in the final month of the 1996 election.)

            http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/clinton-voters-arent-just-voting-against-trump/

            Or in simpler terms, 54% of Trump’s voters, more than any other candidate in recent history, are voting for him purely because he has an R next to his name, not because they actually like him.

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Do you believe that 538 will be right about Trump this time, after being wrong about him losing all previous times? 😛

              • Lanthanide

                538 predicted that Trump would win many of the individual state primaries that he did actually win, and predicted that he was on track for winning the nomination, after they set up their model and it clearly showed he was winning in the polls. Just like their model says he has only ~15% chance of winning the election now – he could still win according to their predictions.

                Anyway, you haven’t addressed the point, that more people are voting for Donald because he has an R next to his name, than because they actually like him or anything he is saying.

                Ie all your rubbish about most people voting for him because they want him to destroy the system.

                • Colonial Viper

                  You mean Michael Moore’s rubbish.

                  • McFlock

                    Moore just said “a lot”.

                    you added “in the main”. One is a relative quantity, the other is a proportion of his supporters. Two very different things.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Clinton is predicted to smash Trump by 100 or more electoral votes. So I’m sure this is all academic, right?

                    • McFlock

                      Either way, there’s no need to misrepresent what Moore said.

                • Blackcap

                  Make that a 20% chance now for Trump….

                  • Macro

                    17.8% chance.
                    Nate Silver on the subject just 4 hours ago:

                    But what do the polls say? The race probably is tightening — but perhaps not as much as the hype on the cable networks would imply.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      True situation IMO is Clinton +2, approx. Many of the polls with Clinton +7 or +10 are rigged.

                    • TheExtremist

                      “Many of the polls with Clinton +7 or +10 are rigged.”

                      He says without any evidence whatsoever

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Its my opinion, based on known Clinton campaign advice to pollsters on how they can rig their polls.

                    • TheExtremist

                      “Known Clinton campaign advice to pollsters on how they can rig their polls.”

                      Citation needed

                    • McFlock

                      [Citation needed]

                      lol
                      bets on whether he’s talking about some ambiguously-worded conspiracy to manipulate polls the dems release to the press when they expected the election to be close, rather than a nefarious plan to have every poll in the country “rigged”?

                    • Macro

                      True situation IMO is Clinton +2,

                      🙄
                      I take it you are referring to the Popular Vote here.
                      An analysis of the 22 nation wide polls has Clinton currently at 49.5% and Trump at 43.6%, a difference of around 6% where it has remained since the second debate.
                      Bear in mind that Trump is one of the most unpopular candidates ever in recent history and that the popular vote gap is way wider than that between Obama and Romney in the 2012 election. There is only a slim chance of an upset on Nov 8, less than 20% for Trump.
                      BTW, Oversampling of a target demographic is a perfectly legitimate mathematical technique and should in no way be confused with rigging.

                      For example, if a national survey is planned for a country that is only 20 percent urban the sample size in the urban area would be only 20 percent of the total sample size. Thus, sampling error for the urban estimates would be twice (square root of 0.8n/0.2n) as big as those for the rural estimates and about two and a quarter times larger than the national estimates (square root of n/0.2n). In such case, survey managers might decide it is necessary to over- sample the urban sector, effectively making separate urban and rural domains.

                      http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/meetings/egm/Sampling_1203/docs/no_2.pdf

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Macro: then what is the justification for having poll samples where registered Democrats out number registered Republicans by 1.3x or more (when the real life number is around 1.13x), and where registered Independents make up only around a quarter of the sample (when the real life number is in the high 30% to 40-ish % range).

                      That’s clear over-sampling of Democrat leaning voters and clear under-sampling of Republican leaning voters.

                • more people are voting for Donald because he has an R next to his name

                  Why do you conclude that Lanthanide? The extract from 538 you quoted said “The most interesting thing about these numbers is how few of Trump’s supporters are his fans.“.

                  That’s because most who intend to cast a vote for him are against Hillary Clinton mostly.

                  To my mind that supports Moore’s conjecture that many people will vote Trump in order to give the finger to what they perceive as an establishment that has left them high and dry in various ways.

                  Surely it’s less likely that ‘moderate’ republicans are willing to stomach Trump just because he’s on the ticket with an ‘R’ next to his name?

                  They will vote for him because giving a finger to Hillary amounts, in their eyes, to giving a finger to the system they see as corrupt, captured and not operating in their interests. What better way to give a finger to established interests than showing that you will even support Trump in order to make the point?

                  The economist Frank’s analysis of how showing that you are wiling to even go berserk (and against what may rationally be considered your interests) is one strategy to ensure that, in the future, you won’t have to push the nuclear button so often. You gain ‘respect’ by demonstrating ‘commitment’ to sacrifice something dear to you (e.g., a reasonable person putting up with being called a racist for voting for Trump).

                  Being known to get emotional and not put up with things is often a good strategy – even if it confers overall losses as a direct consequence of acting in that way (It’s beyond the paywall but the article is ‘Beyond Self-Interest’ by Robert Frank in the journal Challenge).

                  Maybe Trump voters (and some of his actual supporters) may well be motivated in this way – it would explain a lot, including the fact that they could disagree with his racist, etc. outpourings.

                  • Chris

                    That’s one of the outcomes of this bizarre situation: there’ll be a whole bunch of traditional republican voters voting for Clinton because they see Trump as wild and unpredictable and Clinton as mainstream establishment and therefore, ironically, more republican than Trump; and there’ll be a whole bunch of democrats voting for Trump because they’re pissed off Bernie didn’t get the nomination and they want to see the whole caboodle upended including the GNP.

                    On top of that there’ll also be a bunch of democrats voting for Trump because they see his unpredictability as a safer bet when it comes to potential war in the middle east and elsewhere compared to Clinton’s track-record. And to counter that there’ll be a bunch of others from both sides who’ve switched to Clinton because of recent revelations around Trump’s treatment of women.

                    If these tend to balance things a bit then Trump might still get in if the polls are defied by an apathetic voter turnout, brought about because of how bloody bizarre the whole thing’s become.

        • Garibaldi 3.1.1.2

          Welcome back CV. I’ve missed you(and was hoping you wouldn’t spit the dummy and leave permanently).

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.2.1

            Most kind, Garibaldi, and thank you for your comments.

          • Manuka AOR 3.1.1.2.2

            Yeah, like he said. Good to see you CV 🙂

          • Olwyn 3.1.1.2.3

            I had the same hope Garibaldi, and kept an eye out for CV’s name this morning. Good to see you back again CV.

            • dukeofurl 3.1.1.2.3.1

              Its like the good old days when Moscow would send out its message to the Socialist Unity Party in NZ, who would stick with it through thick and thin.

              • Colonial Viper

                And Michael Moore is getting these love telegrams from Moscow too?

                Come now, get serious. Moore knows the people on the ground in the poorest most deprived areas of Michigan. If you listen to what Moore has to say in the audio excerpt, I doubt that you’ll conclude the message came from Russia.

                • dukeofurl

                  As you say further down, Moore hates Trump ( and wants voters to support Clinton).
                  So that only leaves you following the ‘Moscow line’

                  In normal times , no way would you even consider Trump, with his racist and misogynist views – which Im sure you have notrack with any of that.
                  Trumps concern for workers is a fairly shallow puddle, they only other reason for your interest is his accommodation with Moscow and him wanting to crack the nato alliance.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    You say that like its a bad thing.The only reason that the Cold War didn’t end up destroying the Earth with nuclear weapons was “accommodation” between D.C. and Moscow.

                    • McFlock

                      Rational accommodation (and luck).

                      What happens when that “accommodation” goes south like so many of his business deals, and he tries to bully-boy putin?

                  • “In normal times , no way would you even consider Trump, with his racist and misogynist views – which Im sure you have notrack with any of that.”

                    much as some would hope and pray that that was true – the reality is it isn’t – I suspect that is one of the pressures moving him from the left – the living a lie bit.

                • CV did you watch the full 45 min movie?

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.2.3.2

              Cheers Olwyn, and I appreciate your level headed comments always.

            • saveNZ 3.1.1.2.3.3

              Yep nice to see you back CV.

          • Chooky 3.1.1.2.4

            +100 Garibaldi (btw I have been away too on the Daily Blog…and I have to say it wasn’t too difficult!…)

            …and Good Post CV!…Michael Moore is very articulate ! I am sure many will be listening to his subliminal subtext…and voting accordingly in the privacy of actually casting their votes…I noted the audience looked pretty serious and were listening intently

            • Pasupial 3.1.1.2.4.1

              Chooky
              Don’t you find that when commenting on TDB that; your comments just disappear into a moderation mystery land, and when they do finally appear contain typos that you wish you’d been able to edit? Maybe it’s just me (as I have been critical of Bradbury in past comments).

              I certainly think the posts there are often worth reading, but the commenting system is crap.

              • Chooky

                @ Pasupial….yes the commenting system is different and there are time lags ( for moderation ?)

                …but although frustrating at times this isn’t necessarily a bad thing because replies can be considered…so less scope for bullying and abuse and heated provocation

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.2.4.2

              Hi Chooky 🙂

        • Stuart Munro 3.1.1.3

          Forgive me, but I do think Trump is unusual – he was considered over the top even twenty five years ago when he got satirised as Clamp in Gremlins II.

      • Scott 3.1.2

        I don’t think anyone, not even Clinton and her team, thinks all trump supporters are deplorable or irredeemable… but there is a group of them that certainly are. You might say the same about some of Clinton’s supporters as well – the group on both sides that get into this stuff with all of the rationality of religious zealots.

        But Moore is right, go beyond that group and you see Trump getting support from the disillusioned. They want change, real change, as much for its own sake as for the expectation it will be an improvement. They probably think Trump is full of it, but he might not be, and they’d be willing to find out.

        • Colonial Viper 3.1.2.1

          In this model of the world, the more shrill and demonising the MSM are of Trump (and of BREXIT) the more these voters will conclude that they are on the right track.

          Or as Moore describes it

          They see that the elite who ruined their lives hate Trump. Corporate America hates Trump. Wall Street hates Trump. The career politicians hate Trump. The media hates Trump, after they loved him and created him, and now hate. Thank you media: the enemy of my enemy is who I’m voting for on November 8.

          • aerobubble 3.1.2.1.1

            And just what if. what if years of rigging the system,overtly and underhandedly, those election systems, along with automaton ic republicians, all make any Republician a siazeable home state advantage, and with democratic manufacturing states fedup vote Trump…

            In one fell swoop Republicians will vomit Trump and Democrats will win in 2020 in a landslide.

            But you do know it doesn’t matter who wins right.

  4. ianmac 4

    People do not really vote on the issues or policies. They vote on an emotional level. So if the dispossessed Middle Class feel angry enough they will vote for Trump. In spite of the crazy stuff Trump has done/said. I think that in Florida Trump has a lead over Clinton. Weird but then look at the Icelandic Pirate Party expecting to win on Saturday.

    • GregJ 4.1

      Clinton is leading in Florida by anywhere from 2 to 4 percent. Johnson is still polling between 3 to 5 percent so it may come down to where those people actually place their votes on polling day. I believe the early polling in Florida is seeing fewer registered Republicans voting earlier. Also there has been quite a large influx of Puerto Ricans in the last few years into Florida who tend to swing to the Democrats. Trump does need Florida to win though and it is looking an uphill struggle for him.

    • dukeofurl 4.2

      Pirates will be largest opposition party.

  5. mauī 5

    The film is being shown on TV One on Tuesday November 1 at 9.30pm.

  6. roy cartland 6

    So it’s the old ‘I’m going down and I’m taking you with me’ trope. I’d rather we both lose massively than risk you winning (again).

    Any insight on why Sanders or Stein never got through to these forgotten? (Surely not because they had some ugly policy or history – so does Trump.)

  7. “Moore knows that Trump may not mean a thing he says, Trump may not end up changing a thing, and although Moore seems sure that these same people are going to eventually regret voting for Trump it is very predictable what they will still choose to do”

    That sentence sums it up well. Desperate people cling to any life-raft they can – I don’t blame them for being desperate or for clinging to some belief that trump will do what he says when all evidence says the opposite – no, I blame trump and his voracious vocal supporters for taking advantage of others desperation for trumps own monetising goals. Once that reality is understood the whole travelling salvation show from trump makes more sense – it is evangelical and mirrors alot of the characteristics of that phenomena right down to ‘brother love’ imo.

  8. Ad 8

    Voting as therapy rarely ends well. Generally it ends in tears.

    Disrupting “the system” isn’t enough, and is usually too much.

    If Trump and the Republican Party had a transformative agenda, and were unified and swept Presidency, Senate, and Congress, we’d have ….

    …. oh wait we’d have the Bushes back.

    Pinning all your hopes on one person, no matter how much swagger and charisma they have, isn’t ever enough for the kind of disruption I suspect that you want.
    Having supporters isn’t enough. As we’ve seen all around the democratic world.

    Even, having supporters, and party unity rarely cuts it.

    You need: a good person, with party support, who understands the system, has coherent policies, can control the legislature, and is in there for many years.
    Helen Clark types. Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama types. Bob Hawke types. If you like it slightly authoritarian like Trump does, he should have played his game as well as Lee Kwan Yew. That’s how you change a whole country and a whole people for good. I don’t see Michael Moore getting any of this.

  9. dukeofurl 9

    So Trump talks the talk about jobs for US workers?

    http://www.newsweek.com/how-donald-trump-ditched-us-steel-workers-china-505717
    A Newsweek investigation has found that in at least two of Trump’s last three construction projects, Trump opted to purchase his steel and aluminum from Chinese manufacturers rather than United States corporations based in states like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin.
    “Of Trump’s last three construction projects, the first to use Chinese steel was Trump International Hotel Las Vegas, which opened in 2008.
    Another recent Trump building that has used metal from China is Trump International Hotel and Tower in Chicago, which opened in 2009.

    So he talks about American jobs but does differently- as you would expect a billionaire realestate developer turned politician to just say these things. Much like the clothing range that bears his name- American jobs?
    Yes that too is from China

  10. mickysavage 10

    Ok so some very decent people may support Trump for their own laudable reasons. The guy is still an idiot and the biggest threat to world peace that we have. Still no reason for anyone to support him.

    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      The guy is still an idiot and the biggest threat to world peace that we have.

      I would tend to disagree. IMO unipolar American exceptionalism as expressed and practiced by the US foreign policy neocon set is the “biggest threat to world peace that we have.”

      This is the group of people who think that stationing NATO bases and heavy weapons right off the border with Russia is a good idea.

      This is the group of people who believe in illegal regime change, funding the destabilisation of sovereign governments, and providing arms and military training to Islamic extremists and jihadists in order to use them as proxy regime change tools.

      This is the group of people who think that unilateral withdrawal from the ABM treaty and unilateral abrogation of the terms of weapons grade plutonium agreement are a good idea.

      This is the group of people who think that demonising Russia, a long time nuclear partner, as an election campaign strategy is smart.

      This is the group of people who think that ramping up military tensions with Russia and China at every turn is productive.

      Donald Trump is not in with these people. That’s why the D.C. / military industrial establishment want him finished, and they want their hand picked proven pro-regime change player in instead.

    • dukeofurl 10.2

      Especially since his love for american workers isnt based on any previous actions.

      It seems to me his rhetoric comes from internal polls which show support from white working class males, so the speaking points are just empty words

      • Colonial Viper 10.2.1

        Now, is that your public position on the matter, or your Wall St funded big foreign corporation sponsored private position on the matter?

        • dukeofurl 10.2.1.1

          Wall St Funded?
          You do realise the speaking fees – which are much the same as any big wigs in US, and Clinton has spoken to many groups for the same price- would be at the bonus level of a single low -medium level trader ($250K).
          Im sure the monthly limo bill at Goldman Sachs would be much the same as Clintons speaking fee.

          Its laughable that the money would buy any influence- at that price .
          Her campaign could be spending up to the $1bill level.

          • Colonial Viper 10.2.1.1.1

            Its laughable that the money would buy any influence- at that price . Her campaign could be spending up to the $1bill level.

            I’ll be doing another post on how corporate money and foreign money bought access to the State Department, bought access to the Clintons, and bought big money contracts for major donors and “FOBs” (Friends of Bill).

            • McFlock 10.2.1.1.1.1

              Will you be pretending that the Clinton Foundation is the same as Hillary’s personal bank account?

              • Colonial Viper

                Bob Woodward agrees that the Clinton Foundation is an utterly corrupt enterprise and I tend to agree.

                • TheExtremist

                  Of course you do because it fits in with preconceptions

                • McFlock

                  Who does woodward agree with? You agree with him agreeing with you?

                  The organisations that rate charities disagree with both of you.
                  Clinton’s tax returns disagree with both of you.

                • Manuka AOR

                  Bob Woodward agrees that the Clinton Foundation is an utterly corrupt

                  Bob Woodward also believed that Iraq had ‘weapons of mass destruction’.

                  “During an appearance on Larry King Live, he was asked by a telephone caller, “Suppose we go to war and go into Iraq and there are no weapons of mass destruction”, Woodward responded “I think the chance of that happening is about zero. There’s just too much there.”” [Ref: FRONTLINE. “Interviews – Bob Woodward | News War | FRONTLINE | PBS”]

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Woodward

                • dukeofurl

                  “Bob Woodward agrees that the Clinton Foundation is an utterly corrupt enterprise and I tend to agree.”

                  hes an idiot
                  “Woodward has certainly shown in recent years that he doesn’t have his finger on the pulse on Democratic politics. Three years ago he claimed Hillary Clinton might replace Vice President Joe Biden on the Democratic ticket in 2012. (Then again he once predicted Dick Cheney would be the Republican nominee in 2008.) ”

                  “But it’s Woodward’s reporting during the Bush administration that best debunks the farcical the notion that he is a “liberal” ally. He did that both through his fawning coverage of the Bush White House, especially in the early years, and by becoming a major player in the scandal surrounding CIA operative Valerie Plame.”
                  http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/03/01/woodward-as-liberal-icon-not-exactly/192862

                  Woodward is just another Faux News Fuckwit. Regular with Hannity and the other shows which throw shit at the Clintons.
                  Thats fine, but please dont try to make some sort of saint Bob who actually knows stuff along the lines here of Hagar

                  Other stuff
                  http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/02/what-the-hell-happened-to-bob-woodward.html

                  In “All the President’s Men” he said he was a Republican.
                  http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104×1721205

            • TheExtremist 10.2.1.1.1.2

              Will you be sourcing your post with RT and other propaganda sources?

            • marty mars 10.2.1.1.1.3

              will you put ALL the facts out there including where claims have been disproved and shown to be deliberate personal hatred and/or disinformation dirty trick-like campaigning, and will you let people decide for themselves or will you slant everything to make clinton look bad

    • Colonial Viper 10.3

      The guy is still an idiot and the biggest threat to world peace that we have.

      I understand your contention that Trump is an idiot, but as for “biggest threat to world peace that we have” – that’s groundless hyperbole.

      I reckon you may not have considered the role of the US foreign policy neocons who see the world purely in a unipolar, American exceptionalism context.

      These are the same people who think that it is a good idea to conduct illegal programmes of regime change and sovereign government destabilisation throughout the world, while ramping up military tensions against China and Russia in both China and Russia’s own backyards, funding/training ultimately uncontrollable Islamic jihadists to use as proxy armies, unilaterally backing out of the ABM treaty and unilaterally abrogating the terms of the weapons grade plutonium disposal treaty, etc.

      NB that’s Hillary’s crowd, not Trump’s.

    • AmaKiwi 10.4

      For me, the point is people are grasping at extreme solutions because of their outrage about the dismal failure of neo-liberalism (“Everything is rigged.”) imposed by make believe democracy (“You don’t need referendums because if you elect me I’ll pretend to do something.”).

      An increasing percent of the population know neo-liberal pseudo democracy has destroyed their hopes and dreams at the price of enriching the corrupt elite. Extremists left and right are ready to rip the system apart.

      I wish I could say NZ Labour could fix it, but they can’t because substantive change requires a lot of oxen being gored. It requires a Yanis Vroufakis, Corbyn, Sanders, the Pirate party, the Italian Five Star party, and alike. By comparison, Cunliffe is a timid radical. But that is enough for the parliamentary Labour party to destroy his character (“Cunliffe is a liar”) and banish him to the back benches.

      Trump IS dangerous, but without responsible radicals people will vote for him.

    • Stuart Munro 10.5

      I’m not sure Putin isn’t a greater threat – does not lack ambition & tends to realise them militarily. That said, the US used to have a notion of ‘the right stuff’ for presidency (or space flight). Trump never had the right stuff – shouldn’t be in the running.

      • Colonial Viper 10.5.1

        what exactly do you think Putin is a threat to? Declining and unsustainable unipolar American exceptionalism and hegemony?

        • Stuart Munro 10.5.1.1

          While he certainly does threaten that, he is by no means an ambassador of humanism or civilisation. He raises the chances of a superpower confrontation, raises civilian casualties in his areas of operations, and tends to suppress democracy in places that interest him – Ukraine, Syria, Chechnya, Ingushetia, and of course, Russia.

          If you want a brutal and unapologetic military dictatorship, Putin is your man. His real gift to the middle east looks set to be the kind of proxy war that devastated places like Lebanon for decades. It would be an exaggeration to say he threatens peace because Syria and Iraq are not at peace – but he tends to escalate conflicts. This has served him well against the tiny former-soviet satellites, but whether it will continue to work, and whether it is desirable that it should work remains to be seen. Survivors of the 20th century Russian expansion are not keen for a replay.

          • Colonial Viper 10.5.1.1.1

            Where do you get this ridiculous tripe from? Firstly Putin has the popular support of 80% plus of the Russian voting public. That’ more than Obama, or May, or Merkel or John Key can get.

            Now remind me – who in the 1990s applied sanctions to Iraq which killed half a million Iraqi children – and then said on TV that it was worthwhile?

            Cluetip: the USA.

            Remind me – who backed a completely undemocratic and unconstitutional change of government in Kiev?

            Cluetip: the USA.

            Remind me – who is operating their military forces in and over Syria completely illegally and without permission of Syria’s sovereign government?

            Cluetip: the USA.

            Remind me – why did the former USSR occupy half of Europe in the mid 20th century?

            Cluetip: A major western European power decided to invade the USSR and kill approx 27M Soviet citizens.

          • Colonial Viper 10.5.1.1.2

            I think Putin is demonized by the west because he insists on maintaining the economic and political independence and sovereignty of Russia. No more, no less.

            As for mid 20th Century Russian (USSR) expansion: can you please remind me how it was that the USSR ended up in half of Europe?

            Did you forget that small matter of a major western European power brutally invading the USSR and killing approx 27M Soviet citizens?

            • Stuart Munro 10.5.1.1.2.2

              Though the West may be demonising Putin they are doing so on objective grounds. The Chechen genocide is enough to damn him on its own, and it is not on its own.

              How did Russia end up with half of Europe? They cut a deal with Hitler, with whom they were happy to make such deals.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

              Then, when Hitler backstabbed them, the Allies made a pragmatic decision to lend Russia massive materiale support to prevent Germany consolidating its gains. When the German forces collapsed or were beaten the Russians advanced into the countries the Germans had taken, and in the end Germany itself.

              The pact included the division of Poland between Russia and Germany – so don’t make them out to be martyrs – the Russians started the war as dirty as Hitler.

              I won’t accuse you of forgetting this, because it seems more likely you have omitted it deliberately as an inconvenient truth that does not serve your intentionally deceptive narrative.

  11. Richard Rawshark 11

    IF I went on principles I would vote for neither. Why compromise when they are so jolly awful, I mean you are supposed to vote for something that represents what you believe, not the better of two complete no hopers.

    • weka 11.1

      Pragmatic voting can be a highly ethical act.

      “I mean you are supposed to vote for something that represents what you believe, not the better of two complete no hopers.”

      Says who?

    • Richard Rawshark 11.2

      NO Vote Trump I was a FOOOOOL.

      Trump will save the planet, it will be tremendous, absolutely brilliant.

  12. Karen 12

    Michael Moore does not support Trump. He loathes him. I was curious to see CV quoting from Moore so against my better instincts I read his post and found the usual misleading and selective material.

    Check out Moore’s twitter account to find out what Moore really thinks of Trump and why he is now an avid supporter of Clinton.
    You don’t need to join twitter to read them.

    Michael Moore ‏@MMFlint Oct 26
    Michael Moore Retweeted Roxanne Wright
    They’re only helping us by sending thousands of Trump voters to iTunes to watch my movie http://bit.ly/trumpland . Then the truth’ll hit ’em.Michael Moore added,

    Roxanne Wright @roxannelwright
    @MMFlint, sadly,Trump supporters are now sharing a 4 min portion of your video making it look like you support Trump 100%. Not a good thing.

    • Olwyn 12.1

      The post’s central claim is that Moore “gets Trump’s appeal and support base”, not that Moore supports Trump.

      • Bill 12.1.1

        What Moore says in in line with what Rebecca Solnit has been saying about the demonisation and simple caricature of the working class offered up by mainstream news outlets.

        Also reminds me of a piece I read in (I think) The Canary about the Brexit vote. Post vote survey apparently showed that people votes ‘out’ because of austerity and not because of immigration.

        But ‘working class stupid racists’ is apparently an easier line to run with anyway. 🙁

        • weka 12.1.1.1

          Huge pity CV didn’t write posts and comments like this for the past 6 months then, and instead has been flaming anti-liberal/anti-left antagonism all over the place (I note that he still can’t help but poke that particular bigotry into the mix even in this post).

          • left for dead 12.1.1.1.1

            I’ve just had a chance to look in on progress on this thought provoking post to find weka still has head and nose looking down, if not back. How about you take a brake (intended double meaning) so things can further settle down, ay

            • Robertina 12.1.1.1.1.1

              Michael Moore has been documenting and understanding working class alienation and betrayal his whole career.
              Trump’s just exploiting that same dynamic, and CV and Trump are both misrepresenting Moore’s critique. And CV does this in a highly disingenuous rather than ‘thought provoking’ manner.
              Check out Moore’s take on the ‘vile and disgusting candidate’ and how he’s misrepresented his film:

              http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/27/michael_moore_to_megyn_kelly_i_understand_trump_voters_are_angry_system_failed_trump_not_solution.html

              • Colonial Viper

                Trump’s just exploiting that same dynamic, and CV and Trump are both misrepresenting Moore’s critique. And CV does this in a highly disingenuous rather than ‘thought provoking’ manner.

                You forgot to detail out where I misrepresented Moore’s critique.

                Not only did I give people links to find out more about the Trumpland production themselves, but I made it clear in my post that Moore is confident that Trump supporters are going to regret supporting Trump.

                My point stands: Moore understands better than most people why so many good, decent folk in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin are going to vote Trump.

      • Karen 12.1.2

        The title of the post and the general thrust suggests Moore is much more sympathetic to Trump than he actually is. I am a big fan of Moore and got irritated enough to respond. In future, I will go back to ignoring CV’s posts and comments, although I do accept he has plenty of fans on The Standard..

    • Colonial Viper 12.2

      Karen: if you want to accuse me of being misleading, perhaps you should avoid falling into the same trap yourself.

    • Enough is Enough 12.3

      And CV never said that Moore did support Trump…So your point is?

      • Colonial Viper 12.3.1

        I made it clear in the post that Moore thinks that all these Trump supporters are eventually going to regret voting for him. This is not an endorsement from Moore; it is an explanation.

        • marty mars 12.3.1.1

          yep and they will turn on trump and his flunkies when they realise they have been lied to, duped and treated like imbeciles – wouldn’t like to be wearing I love trumpie tee then.

          • Colonial Viper 12.3.1.1.1

            yep and they will turn on Clinton and her flunkies when they realise they have been lied to, duped and treated like imbeciles – wouldn’t like to be wearing I’m with her tee then.

            I believe my version will be just as true, if not more so 😛

            • marty mars 12.3.1.1.1.1

              not sure quote marks are needed there – I’m sure you’ll be long gone anyway – probably switched sides again by then, 😉 you’ll pointing the finger at trumpees saying,”they bad, I told you so.” – lol it will end up being sorta funny – if anyone is there to see it of course – but once again – not your problem eh

              • Colonial Viper

                If Clinton wins, which remains a possibility, I think the repercussions of her Presidency will give me two or three glorious, if ultimately unsatisfying, years of saying “I told you so” 😛

                • I’m sure that will be personally pleasurable for you in the comfort of your own home. Sadly when you proclaim outside there you’ll be saying I told you so to people who already know and have thought about it with consideration, and insight in frankly a lot more depth than yourself I’d say. That is one of your more obvious blindspots in this race to the president.

                • Chooky

                  lol…CV…re “I told you so”

                  yes it does place one in a bit of a dilemma as to who to hope wins

                  …Trump is sure to commit some heinous horrible pipeline environmental damage ( in which case I will retire from this site)

                  …Clinton is a hypocritical venal corrupt Democrat with no moral compass…and a loose canon on Foreign Policy (and could start WW3 in which case it will end all arguments here…which could be a plus)

                  • Colonial Viper

                    …Trump is sure to commit some heinous horrible pipeline environmental damage ( in which case I will retire from this site)

                    Meanwhile under the Obama administration, activist film makers arrested at the recent North Dakota tar sands pipeline shutdown have been charged with enough felony crimes to imprison them for up to 45 years.

                    This is plain and simple intimidation of independent environmental journalism by the US government, no ifs or buts.

        • dukeofurl 12.3.1.2

          So:
          ” Moore thinks that all these Trump supporters are eventually going to regret voting for him”

          That isint what you say in your headline:
          Michael Moore: why blowing up the system and voting for Trump will feel good

          Very neat journalistic trick: The headline says what YOU want to say, the disclaimer is hidden elsewhere

          • Chooky 12.3.1.2.1

            however they may regret voting for Hillary even more

            • marty mars 12.3.1.2.1.1

              are you michael moore – or how the hell would you know and why should anything YOU say be taken as credible compared to Moore.

              • Chooky

                ? again incomprehensible

                • moore – Moore thinks that all these Trump supporters are eventually going to regret voting for him

                  kooky – however they may regret voting for Hillary even more

                  marty – why should we listen to you not michael moore?

                  kooky – ???

                  • Pasupial

                    As a simpleton, Trump offers simple answers to complex questions. This can be very appealing. However, I do have to wonder how many woman told Moore that they were for considering voting for that creep? His; “now the wife and kids are gone” line (quoted in OP) suggests that not many were asked.

                    What the abbreviated clip of Moore’s statement leaves out is Moore’s assessment of disenchanted “Brexit state” voters selecting Trump.

                    “[Voting for Trump will feel good] for a day. Maybe a week. Possibly a month. And then. Like the Brits, who wanted to send a message, so they voted to leave Europe only to find out that if you vote to leave Europe you, actually have to leave Europe,” Moore told the Ohio crowd. “And now they regret it. All the Ohioans, Pennsylvanians, Michiganders and Wisconsinites of Middle England, right, they all voted to leave and now they regret it.”

                    Talk about damning with faint praise. Moore ended his introduction to “TrumpLand” with this message to Trump voters: “Goodnight America. You’ve just elected the last president of the United States.”

                    http://www.salon.com/2016/10/27/donald-trump-praises-michael-moore-for-predicting-a-hillary-clinton-loss/

                    • Chooky

                      Here is the “simpleton”…from the horses mouth

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nge0NnTEnCI

                    • Colonial Viper

                      However, I do have to wonder how many woman told Moore that they were for considering voting for that creep? His; “now the wife and kids are gone” line (quoted in OP) suggests that not many were asked.

                      Trump will need to hold the gender gap to Romney/Obama 2012 or less in order to win. If women break for Clinton +20% on election day, Trump is toast.

                    • Pasupial

                      Chooky
                      That does have some nice editing, but I’m assuming that someone else wrote most of the script. When we see Trump on the spot answering a question in a debate or interview, his speech is more limited.

                      I’m not saying that his speaking manner isn’t effective with connecting with some voters. But I am saying that the world is more complex than his slogans. I guess it comes down to whether facts matter to you.

            • dukeofurl 12.3.1.2.1.2

              Only the losing side will never fulfill its expectations- so in that respect you are right.
              Its a politician you vote for, not membership of a church with an all wise and knowing deity.

          • Richard Rawshark 12.3.1.2.2

            LMAO, as they gazed up to see the approaching ICBM a everlasting shout was heard across the face of planet earth.

            “I knew I should have ticked the other box.”

            Either way same result.

  13. Enough is Enough 13

    Moore is absolutely correct.

    What this election has shown is how unpopular the “Establishment” and Elite really are in the US.

    Trump destroyed the Republican Primary favourites and he is giving Hillary the race of her life.

    With the skeleton in Trumps’ cupboard the only way to explain it is America has had enough of the system they are in.

  14. McFlock 14

    “A lot” aren’t irredeemables? Nice to know.

    Trump has actually been trying to change his approach since the primaries (although the real T still leaks through, like when the black guy asked him about presidential qualities and Trump went off about inner city crime lol).

    But ‘build a wall to keep the rapists and murderers out’ isn’t exactly appealing to the middle class, and he sure isn’t backing away from that sort of position.

    And his audience members seem… more colourful in some ways than others.

    So, to paraphrase Trump: they’re racists, they’re rednecks, and some of them, I’m sure, are middle class people…

    Maybe he should compile his bigly aphorisms: Trump’s Little Orange Book

  15. Rob 15

    Its refreshing to have CV open an honest debate. No doubt there is increasing disbelief and disdain of politics & politicians and civics in general by a broad range of people.

    The people at the “defined’ bottom that exist outside of the tax / benefit system – really dont give a shit.

    The “middle” defined people are struggling and big tax is a burdon for them and their kids. And this tax band is the engine room of the tax system, it funds almost everything.

    The well off, well they dont trust anyone outside of themselves.

    Then the whole political layer, this is their ride and any cause that requires funding is gauranteed to get their attention. People are getting sick of paying for this shit.

    Its easy to see why populations are starting to understand that having career elected officials represent their views and future good prospects is futile and delivers nothing.

    • joe90 15.1

      The well off, well they dont trust anyone outside of themselves.

      Unless of course the well off need the rest of us to hold onto their station.

      What is it about a flamboyant millionaire that appeals to poor white conservatives? Why do they believe a Trump presidency would amplify their voices? The answer may lie in America’s historical relationship between the wealthiest class and the army of poor whites who have loyally supported them.

      From the time of slavery (yes, slavery) to the rise of Donald Trump, wealthy elites have relied on the allegiance of the white underclass to retain their affluence and political power. To understand this dynamic, to see through the eyes of poor and working class whites as they chant, “Trump, Trump, Trump,” let’s look back at a few unsavory slices of America’s capitalist pie

      http://www.stirjournal.com/2016/04/01/i-know-why-poor-whites-chant-trump-trump-trump/

      • Rob 15.1.1

        Yeah….well , you are on to it Joe….some real nice reading & linking there. What do you think?

      • Colonial Viper 15.1.2

        given that 7 out of 10 Americans can’t even find $1000 in their bank account after 8 years of Obama rule, do you have an explanation for why the Democrats are continuing a massive underclass which will support the Republicans

        And since the Clintons have accumulated $250M or more of personal wealth since WJC left office, do you count them amongst the scum bag “wealthy elites” who use the underclass for their own political purposes?

        • Rob 15.1.2.1

          Well, dare we all say it, a lot of politicos are pretty well off, and they have they have the time &/or luxuary to debate &/or moan.

          Not easy to debate &/or moan when you are fixing plasterboard or stuffing batts into houses for a living.

        • joe90 15.1.2.2

          scum bag “wealthy elites”

          Your words sport, not mine, and you’re the one with a boner for the NYC blue blood.

          • Rob 15.1.2.2.1

            You added nothing Joe , why even bother. Spark up when you have something meaningful to contribute.

            • joe90 15.1.2.2.1.1

              Who the fuck are you to turn up late to the party and demand a rundown of the past six months.

              Fuck you and your horse, trole.

          • Colonial Viper 15.1.2.2.2

            Hi joe90, you are quite right sorry I will recast my careless phrasing: with over $250M personal net worth do you consider the Clintons as part of the “wealthy elite” of the USA?

        • Lanthanide 15.1.2.3

          As I’ve said before, CV, the American culture is one of consumption, not savings.

          Saying 70% of Americans don’t have $1k in savings seems bad on the face of it – but you can also interpret that as many Americans being hopeful for their future prosperity, so they see no need to save and are happy to spend everything they earn.

          Contrast with the cultural attitudes in China, where people, peasants especially, save as much money as possible, because there is little in the way of government support and they expect to face tough times in the future.

          • Colonial Viper 15.1.2.3.1

            Saying 70% of Americans don’t have $1k in savings seems bad on the face of it – but you can also interpret that as many Americans being hopeful for their future prosperity, so they see no need to save and are happy to spend everything they earn.

            OK I can see the glass half full point that you are trying to make, but I’d suggest that it could also be seen as a lot of burnishing of the turd.

  16. DS 16

    Trump’s base are poorly educated yet comfortably off white male Protestants. He’s not getting support from actual poor people (except for the usual suspect states in the South), and he is not going to win Michigan or Pennsylvania or Wisconsin. He might win Ohio, but that’s it as far as the Rust Belt is concerned.

    As for Lefties liking Trump (a phenomenon largely limited to those who wouldn’t actually have to suffer under him), supporting a fascist because the opposition isn’t left-wing enough has some tragic precedent. Frankly, and speaking as an ardent Lefty, I would back Margaret Thatcher over Donald Trump.

    • Rob 16.1

      Wow, we have found it , here is the oracle on identifying the poorly eduacted. You best look out out you dumb schmucks!

      We all bow in your presence , oh mighty mage!

      • DS 16.1.1

        Um, try taking a look at the polling crosstabs. They often break down by age, ethnicity, gender, income, level of education, and religion, Trump does terribly among young people, non-whites, women, the poor, the educated, and non-Protestants.

        • Rob 16.1.1.1

          Nice one DS, unfortuntaly you still dont get get the debate.

          Its not the matter of liking Trump, its failure in belief of the system.

        • Colonial Viper 16.1.1.2

          So you believe that Clinton is going to beat Trump in the popular vote by around +10 percentage points? Therefore a landslide for Clinton by a hundred or more electoral votes?

          • DS 16.1.1.2.1

            7-10 points, yes. At this stage, a Hillary +12 would surprise me less than a Hillary +3.

            As far as EVs go, she’s looking at Obama 2012 + North Carolina + Nebraska’s 2nd Congressional District. Arizona is pure toss-up, and after that, in ascending order of difficulty, Georgia, Alaska, South Carolina, and Texas. Utah remains a wildcard because of McMullin splitting the right-wing vote.

            Even if it were close, any Republican (not just Trump) runs into the Blue Wall problem. Hillary only needs those states John Kerry won in 2004, plus Virginia and Colorado, and she’s won. Doesn’t matter if Trump wins Iowa, Nevada, Ohio, and Florida.

            • Colonial Viper 16.1.1.2.1.1

              I think Hillary is only +2 up on Trump currently hence the massive and ongoing attacks on him; I will be extremely surprised if she pulls a +7 or +10 on the popular vote. Not saying it is impossible though. As for the Blue Wall problem yep that is a real one which faces any and every Repub candidate.

              • Rob

                Yep, reading your notes is similar to reading the run down of the Melbourne Cup stakes by starter. All “lite facts”, but no real awareness .

  17. Rob 17

    Yeah, Clinton will win by a landslide and it will be the better result , unbelievable as it may seem, as Clinton is amazingly hopeless. However Trump is an idiot, but my god there is some real anger out there.

  18. Rob 18

    How did we end up with these two?

    • Colonial Viper 18.1

      My best guess is that the establishment would have been fine with either Jeb Bush or Hillary Clinton; but they eventually chose Clinton and discarded Jeb, instead deciding to promote a weak outsider “Pied Piper” candidate in Trump as someone that Clinton should have no trouble running over and leaving on the side of the street as political road kill.

      Except that Trump has performed rather unexpectedly well.

      • Lanthanide 18.1.1

        Just ignoring that most of the establishment has been vocally against Trump, and that he won by a public primary.

        In other words, denying reality.

        Party insiders picking the nominee hasn’t happened since 1966.

        • Colonial Viper 18.1.1.1

          I love your faith in the US democratic process, good on ya mate.

          • Lanthanide 18.1.1.1.1

            If you want to deny reality, fine, just don’t pretend you have some sort of inside information about ‘what is really happening’, because you don’t.

  19. Michael 19

    Uh, no.
    Michael Moore is vociferously campaigning *for* Hillary Clinton. Understanding Trump’s appeal is not the same as condoning it.

    And Trump supported American auto companies stopping jobs from going? Give me a break! He shipped jobs to low-wage nations in Asia by making all his products there. Obama was the one who bailed out the auto industry and protected hundreds of thousands of factory jobs.

    Donald Trump is a racist, sexist authoritarian billionaire who is looking out only for himself — a man who believes in not paying taxes, enriching himself, all while building a huge tower with his name in gold letters at the top is not a working class here that will save the disaffected people of America.

    Electing Donald Trump will be the biggest inhibitor to progressive change, and I’m not just speaking socially but economically too. Hillary Clinton has come out against TPP. Hillary Clinton supports free tuition for tertiary education. Hillary Clinton supports strengthening unions and raising the minimum wage. Hillary Clinton supports paid parental leave and affordable childcare. Hillary Clinton supports greater regulation of the banks and monopolistic industries. Hillary Clinton supports raising taxes on the wealthy. Hillary Clinton wants to ensure the US follows through on its Paris agreement commitments.

    Donald Trump will give bigger taxes to the wealthy than Reagan did. Donald Trump wants to reverse federal regulations and freeze more regulations. Trump wants to tear up climate change actions. Trump opposes affordable childcare. Trump doesn’t care about unions or protecting jobs: just look how he himself has treated unions and shipped jobs to low-wage countries.

    And while Hillary has flaws, she can be pushed by a strong populist movement and Democrats in congress like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, and others. Bernie Sanders will be chair of the senate budget committee and Elizabeth Warren will be able to block any too industry-friendly regulatory appointments.

    • Richard Rawshark 19.1

      Incorrect

      “And Trump supported American auto companies stopping jobs from going? Give me a break! He shipped jobs to low-wage nations in Asia by making all his products there. Obama was the one who bailed out the auto industry and protected hundreds of thousands of factory jobs.”

      He imported cheap construction materials I am unaware of anything he manufactures as a product you can buy in a shop. But IDNK perhaps he does?

      As for what you said about the Auto industry you do know the truth is he went to Detroit stood in front of these execs and said if they moved their manufacturing out of the states to say Mexico like they are planning to currently do, he would slap a 35% tariff on them and no one in the US would buy them.

      what you said, who told you that?

      you know what Clinton money buys yo favours and time style government does?

      It means free trade deals, free rides, and companies don’t pay penalities on importing the goods they used to manufacture in that country therefore free trade means one thing, Companies get to flood china asia india with m,anufacturing and assembly, IE cheap labour costs saving fortunes and pay no penalty for it, they have by their greed and manipulation destroyed the very societies they started off in. Now those very people struggle to pay for the goods they once could. Well FKN DONE.

  20. Richard Rawshark 20

    I have come to my ultimate conclusion of who I would vote for and it’s Trump, however we do it, whatever tool we use, it’s time to break the machine. Sorry. Had enough of corporate life.

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    Today’s NZPD testimonial from Dr Kevin Moore, Associate Professor in Psychology & Tourism, Lincoln University: “For me, the big advantage of NZ Politics Daily is the breadth of opinion and sources it gathers. Together. There is always a mix of news reporting, news analysis, opinion pieces and blog posts. That breadth ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    2 days ago
  • National is still very much the same Party even without Collins leading it… that’s the real issu...
    Judith Collins regarded Thatcher as “a personal hero” of hers. But like her hero though, it took the UK Conservative Party and their ideological counterparts here to get rid of both of them, from the inside. There’s a sort of bizarre symmetry to that really. Both were rather messy ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    2 days ago
  • 2021 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #48
    Listing of articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, November 21, 2021 through Sat, November 27, 2021 The following articles sparked above average interest during the week: To Breed or Not to Breed?, The Vaccine for Fake News, Ten ways to confront the climate ...
    2 days ago
  • A professor without honour in his own country
    Michael Corballis just three months before his death appeared in an interview on the Hui with Mihirangi Forbes. She made no effort to conceal her disdain for his defence of science and proceeded to lecture him on not knowing enough about mātauranga Maori to comment on it and accused him ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 days ago
  • Businessman – and Political Novice
    The drums are beating – see Heather Du Plessis-Allan in today’s Herald – for Christopher Luxon’s bid to become National’s new (and latest) leader. It is conceded that he is a political tyro but – such is National’s current plight – it is suggested that he is a risk worth ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    3 days ago
  • No, Elizabeth Stuart Would Not Have Stopped the English Civil War (Probably)
    As you might have noticed, A Phuulish Fellow is a fairly eclectic blog. Even an organic one. I have my interests, and write about them as the fit takes me. And sometimes I stumble across an article I feel the need to comment on. Today, I ran across a ...
    3 days ago
  • Rumour Has It: A Númenórean Character List?
    Today we have another Amazon rumour on our hands. And for a change, it is not coming out of Fellowship of Fans. No, instead we have the following tweet doing the rounds, ostensibly listing (mostly) Númenórean characters and their code names. It’s an interesting leak, if true. And that’s ...
    4 days ago
  • Covid as Warriors
    The book I am currently working on – tentative title ‘In Open Seas’ – looks at the current and future New Zealand. One chapter describes the policy towards Covid using the trope of warfare. It covers an important period in our history but show how policy evolves and why, as ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    4 days ago
  • COVID-19: the B.1.1.529 variant – what do we know?
    There’s a lot of news about a new variant originally reported in southern Africa. Early signs have prompted calls for immediate precautionary blocks on travel from the region to restrict its spread. The WHO has called an emergency conference on this variant. Here’s a round-up of what we know so ...
    SciBlogsBy Grant Jacobs
    4 days ago
  • National Party board denies it unanimously agreed to Collins’ Faustian bargain with Satan
    Sources close to party president Peter Goodfellow say he was totally blindsided by Collins’ claims he was party to this particular satanic ritual. National Party president Peter Goodfellow is today issuing a strong denial on behalf of the party’s board, saying they did not, at any point, agree to the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    4 days ago
  • The cost of optimism
    Yesterday the National Party imploded in a messy knife-fight that cost it its leader and probably one of the contenders. So naturally, the government has taken the opportunity to do a dump of its pandemic advice, including the Cabinet papers on its controversial decisions to repeatedly lower the Auckland alert ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on National’s less than stellar choices
    Amid all the jostling in the National caucus ranks, spare a thought for Andrew Bayly. Who? Well might you ask. Plucked from obscurity by Judith Collin, elevated from number 18 to number 3 in the caucus rankings and given the Finance portfolio – a role in which he has been ...
    4 days ago
  • Are New Zealand’s universities doing enough to define the limits of academic freedom?
    Matheson Russell, University of Auckland   The news last week that University of Auckland public health researcher Simon Thornley was retracting a co-authored paper about supposed vaccination risks during pregnancy raised deeper questions about the limits of academic freedom. Thornley’s own head of department had called for the paper to ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    5 days ago
  • NZ Politics Daily: 26 November 2021
    Today’s NZPD testimonial from Jean Drage, Political scientist specialist in local government: “With 78 local authorities and central government currently intent on reform, local government is a challenging area of research to keep on top of. Thank goodness for Bryce’s NZ’s Politics Daily. It is a gem, especially as it also ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    5 days ago
  • Josh Van Veen: Bridges is not the one
    Simon Bridges failed to bluff Judith Collins out of the leadership. A campaign to rehabilitate his image began shortly after the election and culminated in the publication of a memoir in August. There were persistent rumours of a deal with rival Christopher Luxon and MPs from the ‘liberal’ wing of ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    5 days ago
  • Smokefree cars – an important step towards protecting children from the hazards of smoking
    Richard Edwards, Jude Ball, Janet Hoek, George Thomson, Nick Wilson*  On November 28 new legislation to protect children from smoking and vaping in cars will come into force. This blog sets out the background and rationale for the new law, and discusses implementation, evaluation and the next steps to protect ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    5 days ago
  • Judith's Last Stand.
    Going Out With All Guns Blazing: Why didn’t Judith Collins stick with the strategy that had kept her, National’s most improbable of leaders, in power for more than a year? One might just as well ask why Rob Muldoon (that other unforgiving right-wing populist National Party leader) got drunk and ...
    5 days ago
  • Act’s Precarious Ascendancy.
    On The Lookout: It is easy to imagine how closely Seymour has been watching the National Opposition for the slightest sign of a Clark figure emerging. A respected politician, who enjoys broad support across the party and, much more importantly, who impresses the ordinary centre-right voter as having what it ...
    5 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #47, 2021
    104 articles by 574 contributing authors Physical science of climate change, effects Delayed impacts of Arctic sea-ice loss on Eurasian severe cold winters Jang et al. Journal of Geophysical Research: Atmospheres 10.1029/2021jd035286 Observations of climate change, effects Divergent responses of terrestrial carbon use efficiency to climate variation from 2000 ...
    5 days ago
  • Labour’s Eyes Wide Shut To “Unruly Tenants”.
    Not Seeing The Problem: They say there are none so blind as those who will not see. And, right now, Kāinga Ora is studiously not looking. It is clear to everyone that the Minister responsible, Poto Williams, has (like so many of her colleagues) been entirely captured by her officials. ...
    5 days ago
  • Is the mob coming for Charles Darwin?
    Richard Dawkins recently noted the giants of the past are being sanctimoniously judged by nonentities of the present whose only qualification is still being alive to do so. How will the future judge our own time when we are not around? Peter Franklin from Unherd examines whether the woke can ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    5 days ago
  • Blowing a Hole in Your Own Wall: Idiotic Tampering with MIQ
    Managed Isolation/Quarantine has been a fact of life for New Zealand for eighteen months. It’s not popular – there are only so many spaces available at any given time, and the process is famously opaque – but it is the key to saving New Zealand from rampant Coronavirus. That, ...
    5 days ago
  • Now Labour wants secret trials
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • The end of a toxic leader
    If there's one thing that Judith Collins is usually good at, it's using scandalous information about other people to her advantage. Not above undermining her own political party, Collins has been known to even leak against her own fellow MPs, particularly those who posed a threat to her as the ...
    5 days ago
  • A transformative government in Germany
    Back in September Germans went to the polls, and handed the politicians a tough job, with no easy majorities for anyone. The Social Democrats, Free Democrats, and Greens agreed to work together in a "traffic light" coalition, but given their political differences (its basicly ACT/Greens/Labour), expectations for real change were ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Political Harakiri
    The National party must always have known that they were taking a risk when they elected Judith Collins as leader. There were, after all, good reasons why they repeatedly declined to accept her candidature when she offered herself – as she frequently did. She was always an inappropriate person to ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    5 days ago
  • Thanksgiving advice, 2021: How to deal with climate change-denying Uncle Pete
    This is a re-post from the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists by Richard Somerville “Birds of a feather flock together,” so I am sure that nearly all of those reading this article accept the main findings of climate science. Yet many people don’t. Instead, they believe a variety of climate ...
    6 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on the demotion of Simon Bridges
    So Simon Bridges has been bounced from the front bench and stripped of his shadow portfolio responsibilities for the crudely “inappropriate” comments that he allegedly made to a female colleague, Jacqui Dean – and personally apologised for – about five years ago. After years of mocking Labour for its supposed ...
    6 days ago
  • NZ Politics Daily: 25 November 2021
    Today’s NZPD testimonial from Dr Rosemary Wette, Associate Professor, Applied Linguistics, University of Auckland: “I’ve been browsing regularly through NZ Politics Daily for several months now. It gives me access to a range of views on current issues (helpfully organised by topic) that I wouldn’t otherwise have time to look up, or ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    6 days ago
  • The bizarre case of the Royal Society investigating academics defending science
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    RedlineBy Admin
    6 days ago
  • Ian Powell: Unionism and nursing in New Zealand
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    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    6 days ago
  • Bryce Edwards: Today’s constitutional disgrace in Parliament
    This Government has a problem with urgency. Critics from both left and right have long complained about their lack of urgency on issues such as climate change, housing, and inequality. Likewise, in terms of the Covid response, there’s been a chorus of criticism that Labour has been complacent and sluggish ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    6 days ago
  • Vaping needs much tighter regulation as we approach Smokefree Aotearoa 2025: Two new studies
    Nick Wilson, Janet Hoek, Jennifer Summers, Driss Ait Ouakrim, Andrew Waa, Richard Edwards, Tony Blakely* Two recent studies provide new insights into the impact vaping may have on public health. The first estimates that use of modern vaping devices could be around a third as harmful to health as smoking. ...
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    6 days ago
  • Strange Defeat: A Guest Post By Dr. Chris Harris.
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    6 days ago
  • More than 147km – the transformative potential of the Wellington bike network plan
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    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    7 days ago
  • NZ Politics Daily: 24 November 2021
    Today’s NZPD testimonial from Liz Brown, Senior communications advisor, Association of Salaried Medical Specialists: “The NZ Politics Daily is a fabulous resource providing a comprehensive one stop shop on what’s making news and how stories are being covered. I look forward to seeing it pop into my inbox every morning.” Anyone can sign ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    7 days ago
  • Climate Change: Taking us for a ride
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: An industry in denial
    Over the past few years it has become clear that coal has no future in Aotearoa. Rising carbon prices, a ban on new boilers and a legislated phase-out for existing infrastructure are going to drive it out of the market. To reinforce this, the government signed up for an anti-coal ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The “most open and transparent government ever” again
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Gordon Campbell on farmers playing the victim, plus Chile’s right turn
    Among the farming lobby groups, the good cop/bad cop routine has been working a treat. It suits Federated Farmers to keep daylight between itself and the Groundswell movement. Month in, year out the Federation continues to engage with the government over the very same water degradation/climate change regulations that Groundswell ...
    1 week ago
  • Important People
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    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • Parliament, the Courts and the end of three strikes (for now)
    Last week, Parliament embarked on the process of repealing the so-called “three strikes” provisions in the Sentencing Act 2002. Given that Labour, the Greens and Te Paati Māori all supported this repeal Bill at first reading (and that NZ First no longer is in government to block the move), three strikes’ eventual legislative demise seems ...
    PunditBy Andrew Geddis
    1 week ago
  • NZ Politics Daily: 23 November 2021
    Today’s NZPD testimonial from Martyn Bradbury, Editor, The Daily Blog “’NZ Politics Daily’ is one of the most important news and political resources run in New Zealand. The expert collation of opinion and news makes it an invaluable day to day resource as well as an incredible treasure for researchers in the future. ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    1 week ago
  • New Zealand’s Emission Reduction Plan
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    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • Dissing The Farmers.
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    1 week ago
  • How will carbon pricing impact inflation?
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    1 week ago
  • (Lack of) Public Service Announcement: The National Library of New Zealand, Internet Archive, and Al...
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    1 week ago
  • Game over for the HRPP
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Chinese influence and American hate diffusion.
    Over the last decade concerns have been raised about Chinese “influence operations” in NZ and elsewhere. Run by CCP-controlled “United Front” organisations, influence operations are designed to promote PRC interests and pro-PRC views within the economic and political elites of the targeted country as well as Chinese diaspora communities. The ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • The Real Interests Of The Country.
    Off Message: Into the extremely fraught relationship between Town and Country, the Groundswell organisers have blundered like an Aberdeen-Angus steer in an organic vege-shop. Unreasonably proud of their rural economic virtues, and dangerously forthright in their enumeration of the cities’ political vices, these Kiwi equivalents of America’s “good ole boys” ...
    1 week ago
  • NZ Politics Daily: 22 November 2021
    Today’s NZPD testimonial from Minna Reid, Law student, Victoria University of Wellington “As a Uni student, staying up to date with current affairs is always important. The Daily Politics & Democracy Project by Bryce Edwards is of great service for this. It offers varying news sources I would not have found myself ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    1 week ago
  • Free speech is a people’s frank confession to itself
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    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • 2021 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #47
    Listing of articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, November 14, 2021 through Sat, November 20, 2021 The following articles sparked above average interest during the week: Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheeple? A.I. Maps 20 Years of Climate Conspiracies, COP Negotiators Demand Nations ...
    1 week ago
  • The F Words, by Barbara Gregorich
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    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • The Scourge of the Aimless Kick
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    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • Delta Rocks Gibraltar: Lessons to be learned from Covid-19’s global resurgence.
    Hard To Beat: Perhaps the most important lesson to be drawn from what is happening in Gibraltar is that vaccination is not a magic bullet. Yes, it makes it harder to contract the virus, and significantly ameliorates its worst effects, but it does not confer absolute immunity to Covid-19 – ...
    1 week ago
  • I’ll take the masks and vaccines, thank you
    From Stuff:I don't want to be pedantic, but I'm pretty sure neither masks nor vaccines figure much in the Gospel of Saint John; nor has Jesus shown much efficacy in protecting people from anything. ...
    1 week ago
  • Hell To Pay: The alarming similarities between the Anti-Vaccination Movement and the creators of the...
    Never Let Go: If the violent prejudices of the Jim Crow South, echoing through contemporary struggles, teach us anything, it is that the defence of rationality, science and progressivism must never be allowed to falter. Those pre-modern night-riders, filled with unrelenting hate, are still out there. If the troops of ...
    2 weeks ago
  • A Peak Out of Auckland? + Other Covid Musings
    At last, we have some cause for optimism out of Auckland’s interminable Covid outbreak. Knowing our luck, it might be a false dawn… but there are some signs that we have seen the peak:
    2 weeks ago
  • Sing Song about Hard Times
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    PunditBy Brian Easton
    2 weeks ago
  • A good problem to have
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Gordon Campbell on the politics of anger, plus a music playlist
    Angry? Are you talkin’ to ME? Of late, the Code Red levels of resentment inspired by the government’s Covid policy almost make one hanker for the days when people could write best-selling books about New Zealanders being The Passionless People. Not anymore. A hissy fit arms race seems to be ...
    2 weeks ago

  • More Vietnam Veterans to receive compensation for Agent Orange Exposure
    Minister for Veterans, the Hon Meka Whaitiri announced today that two new conditions associated with Agent Orange exposure have been added to the Prescribed Conditions List. Under the 2006 Memorandum of Understanding signed between the Crown and representatives of Vietnam veterans and the Royal New Zealand RSA. Vietnam veterans in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    10 hours ago
  • Government commits to international effort to ban and regulate killer robots
    Minister of Disarmament and Arms Control Phil Twyford announced today that New Zealand will push for new international law to ban and regulate autonomous weapons systems (AWS), which once activated can select and engage targets without further human intervention. “While the evidence suggests fully autonomous weapons systems are not yet ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    11 hours ago
  • New freedom camping rules – right vehicle, right place
    Tougher freedom camping laws will be introduced to prevent abuse which has placed an unfair burden on small communities and damaged our reputation as a high quality visitor destination. Tourism Minister Stuart Nash has confirmed that new legislation will be introduced to Parliament following an extensive round of public consultation ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    12 hours ago
  • Government invests to support a classic Kiwi summer
    Vaccinated New Zealanders can look forward to Kiwi summer events with confidence, while artists and crew will have more certainty, following the launch of details of the Arts and Culture Event Support Scheme, Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Carmel Sepuloni announced today. “The Government recognises that the arts and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    12 hours ago
  • Grace period for expired driver licences cruises into 2022
    Due to the ongoing Delta outbreak and extended lockdowns, all New Zealand driver licences and licence endorsements that expired on or after 21 July 2021 will now be valid until 31 May 2022, Transport Minister Michael Wood announced today. “This further extension to the validity of driver licenses recognises that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Delivered: 1,000 extra transitional homes
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Traffic light levels announced
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Financial support to move to traffic light system
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • New Ambassador to Russia announced
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced the appointment of Sarah Walsh as New Zealand’s next Ambassador to Russia. “Aotearoa New Zealand and Russia have a long-standing relationship, engaging on a range of regional and global interests including disarmament and Antarctica issues. We also work together as members of the East ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Permanent Representative to the UN announced
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced the appointment of Carolyn Schwalger as Permanent Representative to the New Zealand Permanent Mission to the United Nations in New York. “Aotearoa New Zealand is a founding member of the UN and we have worked hard to ensure our stance on human rights, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Further COVID-19 economic support for Cook Islands and Fiji announced
    Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta today announced a further package of support for the Cook Islands and Fiji for COVID-19 economic support and recovery. “Aotearoa New Zealand remains committed to supporting our Pacific fanau and vuvale to respond to the impacts of COVID-19 on their economies, and move towards long-term ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New law will clear the air for tamariki in vehicles
    From today, it’s illegal to smoke or vape in most vehicles carrying children aged under 18 years old - whether the vehicle is moving or not. “Second-hand smoke poses an unacceptable risk to our tamariki and rangatahi,” Associate Minister of Health Dr Ayesha Verrall said. “We know children in vehicles ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Nine countries designated very high risk
    Nine southern African countries are being added to the very high risk countries list following public health advice around the newly discovered COVID-19 variant Omicron, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins said. This afternoon, a public health risk assessment was carried out to assess the emerging evidence and any risk to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Foreign Affairs Minister concludes final stage of world trip
    Foreign Affairs Minister Hon Nanaia Mahuta today departed North America to return home to Aotearoa, concluding the last stage of her 17-day world trip. The final leg of her trip saw her visit the United States of America and Canada for a number of high-level discussions. While in Washington D.C., ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Milestone launch of Pacific Languages Unit
    Today’s official launch of the Pacific Languages Unit is a milestone for our Pacific communities, the Minister for Pacific Peoples, Aupito William Sio said. The Pacific Languages Unit brings together a new set of language supports within the Ministry for Pacific Peoples to provide advice, commission research, maintain standards, promote ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Public Health Lecture – University of Otago
    Public Health - Lessons from New Zealand’s COVID-19 response and opportunities for the future E nga mana, E nga reo,                                          E nga iwi. Tēna koutou katoa. Ka huri ki nga mana whenua o te rohe nei. Tēna koutou. He mihi hoki ki a tatou kua tau mai nei I raro I ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand statement on situation in Honiara, Solomon Islands
    Aotearoa New Zealand is deeply concerned by the events which have been unfolding in Honiara, Solomon Islands, since Wednesday. “New Zealand is a long-standing partner of Solomon Islands, and there are deep and enduring connections between our two countries,” Acting Foreign Affairs Minister David Parker said. “Our engagement in Solomon ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Nailed it! Over 500 apprentices get jobs boost
    Over 500 apprentices and cadets have been placed into work across New Zealand thanks to the Government’s booming build programme, that’s both constructing public houses, and maintaining older homes. Housing Minister Megan Woods announced the milestone today at a public housing construction site in Riccarton, Christchurch. “This Government’s investment in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Investment to support maternal mental health
    Associate Minister of Health Dr Ayesha Verrall has announced an investment to help expand maternal mental health services in five District Health Boards. “Supporting parent’s mental wellbeing during their child’s first 1000 days, from conception to two years of age, is critical to the long-term emotional, mental and physical wellbeing ...
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    5 days ago
  • Workplace vaccination requirements extended to cover Police and NZ Defence Force
    With the support of the organisations, additional vaccination requirements will cover sworn members, recruits and authorised officers of the New Zealand Police, and all New Zealand Defence Force staff. First doses of the vaccine for workers in these organisations are required by 17 January 2022, and second doses by 1 ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Aotearoa New Zealand and Canada to pursue greater Indigenous collaboration
    During her visit to Ottawa, the Honourable Nanaia Mahuta, New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs and Associate Minister for Māori Development, met with the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Canadian Minister of Indigenous Services, and the Honourable Marc Miller, Canadian Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, to further expand and develop the positive relationship ...
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  • Māori vaccination rates reach 80% first dose
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    ...
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