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Muppets move against Corbyn

Written By: - Date published: 10:27 am, June 25th, 2016 - 209 comments
Categories: International, uk politics - Tags: ,

Looks like some UK Labour Party MPs have no idea about the reasons the Brexit vote succeeded. They have attacked Jeremy Corbyn for the result even though Labour voters voted to remain in almost exactly the same proportion that SNP voters to remain.

And with the tories in turmoil and the prospects of a Labour victory at the next election considerably increased what do a group of Labour MPs do?  Ignite a leadership challenge against Jeremy Corbyn that has been simmering ever since he was elected.

From George Eaton at the New Statesman:

The long-threatened coup attempt against Jeremy Corbyn has begun. I reported several weeks ago that Brexit would be “the trigger” for a leadership challenge and Corbyn’s opponents have immediately taken action. Margaret Hodge and Ann Coffey have submitted a motion of no confidence in the Labour leader for discussion at Monday’s PLP meeting. If accepted, it will be followed by a secret ballot of MPs on Tuesday. A spokesman for Corbyn told me it was “time for the party to unite and focus on the real issues that affect peope from today’s decision and hold the government to account on their exit negotiations.”

Any confidence motion would be purely symbolic. But Corbyn’s opponents are also “absolutely convinced” that they have the backing of the 51 MPs/MEPs needed to endorse a leadership challenger and trigger a contest. Letters are expected to be delivered to general secretary Ian McNicol from this weekend. The prospect of a new Conservative prime minister and an early general election has pushed MPs towards action. “We have to get rid of him now,” a former shadow cabinet minister told me. “If we go into an election with him as leader we’ll be reduced to 150 seats.”

The latest polls suggest that the Conservatives are barely ahead of Labour.  With the SNP’s solid grip of the Scottish electorate things are neck and neck.  The former shadow cabinet minister’s comments appear to be based more on prejudice than on current performance.

What the protagonists refuse to understand is that the anti intellectual anti expert brexit vote is fuelled by these careerist bubble games that politicians engage in far too often.  Blaming Corbyn for the loss is crazy especially when it is clear that the Government kept Labour out of the campaign as much as possible.

People will be looking for leadership from Labour.  Descending into a leadership stoush at this stage will only increase disillusionment with politics in general and Labour in particular.

As said by John McConnell in the Guardian:

These are uncertain and dangerous times for all of us. Labour must be at the forefront of putting forward an alternative to the present economic mess, which makes unity more important now than ever. At a time of such economic uncertainty, with the Tory party split clean down the middle, Labour members and voters will not forgive us if we descend into infighting and introspection only a year after Jeremy Corbyn won his landslide victory as our leader.

Update:  the general secretaries of twelve trade unions have released this statement:

The prime minister’s resignation has triggered a Tory leadership crisis. At the very time we need politicians to come together for the common good, the Tory party is plunging into a period of argument and infighting.

In the absence of a government that puts the people first Labour must unite as a source of national stability and unity. It should focus on speaking up for jobs and workers’ rights under threat, and on challenging any attempt to use the referendum result to introduce a more right-wing Tory government by the back door.

The last thing Labour needs is a manufactured leadership row of its own in the midst of this crisis and we call upon all Labour MPs not to engage in any such indulgence.

209 comments on “Muppets move against Corbyn ”

  1. dukeofurl 1

    Getting into the detail of your link.
    “Downing Street believed key Conservatives such as Cameron, rather than Labour, should be the dominant message carriers.”

    Im sure the solid remain vote throughout Scotland was because the message had the SNP and Labour and most Conservatives on board.

    The other thing was the right wing press wasnt ‘on side’

    ““Downing Street told us: ‘We won with a risk message in the Scottish referendum in 2014 and 2015, and we could do the same in 2016.’ They were sure the economic risk message would bring the voters back to the status quo.Those messages are fine if they are going to be echoed every day in the rightwing press…

  2. Cricklewood 2

    I think this is behind it, couldn’t find a link to a more recent data set but watching Al Jazeera last night and expert of some description had said that the figures had largely stayed the same up until the vote.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/labour-voters-in-the-dark-about-partys-stance-on-brexit-research-says

  3. Colonial Viper 3

    UK Labour and NZ Labour have the same careerist DNA.

    When the Scots succeed Labour will never take power in the UK again.

    • tinfoilhat 3.1

      I tend to agree CV, which is why I believe the next tory PM while making all the right noises about the UK and union between Scotland, Wales and NI will be secretly delighted if the SNP leads Scotland out of the union.

      • dukeofurl 3.1.1

        Scotland independence will probably be further away than before. remember the vote only had a few areas for independence in Scotland. Nothing like the mixed result in different areas for Brexit.
        Its well to remember how Quebec got its independence- it didnt, the 2nd vote was even closer, turnout even higher.

        • Lanthanide 3.1.1.1

          Er, one of the key promises England made to Scotland about Scotland remaining in the union was due to EU membership and EU development aid going to Scotland.

          With that very much now in jeopardy, another vote for independence in Scotland has a much higher chance of going through.

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.1

            dukeofurl seems to very quickly and conveniently forget the promises made by the English to the Scots.

            The Scots have not forgotten however.

            • dukeofurl 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Even the SNP doesnt keep all its promises. Once they were for abolishing the monarchy but now cant curtsey enough.

              • Colonial Viper

                My point stands.

                • dukeofurl

                  of course it does. but without any reasons for it.

                  The Scotland economy is unsustainable without fossil fuels. The current low prices would bring ruin ( Independence day was supposed to be march 24 2016) and the EU is a hard taskmaster if you cant keep with deficit to GDP ratio.

                  You do know Salmonds background ?
                  “Mr Salmond joined the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) as an economist and in 1982 was appointed to the post of Oil Economist, which he held until 1987 when he left RBS and was elected to Westminster as MP for Buchan and Banff. ”
                  No wonder they are sitting on fence over the abominable fracking.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    The Scotland economy is unsustainable without fossil fuels.

                    What a load of bollocks. Every economy is sustainable without fossil fuels. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that fossil fuels are what’s making our economies unsustainable.

                    • dukeofurl

                      It was more under existing circumstances where the governments revenue is boosted by fossil fuel taxes and royalties
                      “Petroleum Revenue Tax (PRT) is a direct tax collected in the United Kingdom… its in addition to company tax”

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      It was more under existing circumstances where the governments revenue is boosted by fossil fuel taxes and royalties

                      Which is a fundamental misunderstanding of economics but I can’t really blame you for that. The world has been badly mis-taught how economics works in the real world, about actual resources. Instead we’ve been taught about money and how it all comes from the private sector which is only right because we incorrectly allow the private banks to create money without limit.

                      If we corrected the money flow to start at the government and end at the government then the government wouldn’t need revenue. The private sector would be dependent entirely upon government spending and most of that would be the UBI.

                      Most importantly, the economy would not be dependent upon any one industry and if the country had enough resources to feed and house people then it would be sustainable.

              • Bill Drees

                Bollox.
                The SNP does not courtesy to any knobs. You are a bigoted troll.
                Fuck off dukeofurl

    • dukeofurl 3.2

      They could under another Blair, remember “the party” had 418 seats when only 330 were needed for a majority. Only 56 of those 418 came from Scotland.

    • Stuart Munro 3.3

      Nothing secedes like secession.

    • Whateva Next 3.4

      there may not be a UK again

      • Colonial Viper 3.4.1

        its a rewinding in time, the final winding up of British imperial expansionism

        • whateva next? 3.4.1.1

          …….seems to happen to all empires in the end, including the ones which invaded Britain. C’est la vie

  4. Cricklewood 4

    A regional rather than national breakdown would be interesting. I suspect a comparison between lab voters in London v lab voters in Northern England would reveal quite different figures.

    • swordfish 4.1

      If you look at it on a city-by-city basis, there’s a reasonable possibility that – even in many Brexit-leaning cities – most Labour voters still chose Remain. That seems to be especially true in the Big Centres of the Midlands and the North – Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Nottingham, Sheffield (cities that either stuck with Remain or were fairly evenly divided, some tending mildly towards Brexit).

      There are some obvious exceptions, however. I think it’s a fair guess that a majority of Labour voters (though not necessarily a large majority – 60/40 at the extreme, I’d say) in some of the declining ‘Rust Belt’ urban sprawls and satellite cities in the hinterland of these Large Centres – as well as in a range of Eastern coast Port cities with their decimated fishing industries – chose Brexit. But overall, I’d say they were the exception – the stats suggest that the majority of Labour voters outside Greater London went Remain, albeit considerably less emphatically than in the Big Smoke.

  5. BM 5

    Why would Labour voters want to stay in the EU.?

    • miravox 5.1

      Why would Labour voters want to stay in the EU.?

      Maybe this….?

      The UK right now

      and not forgetting that the impact on household finances will mostly affect the poorest sections of society.

      • Ad 5.1.1

        Nice clip!

      • BM 5.1.2

        The Brexit side believes that leaving the EU will lead to cheaper food prices.

        That’s got to help out poor people.

        I’d also expect to see the UK property market start to deflate which will lead to cheaper living, once again helping the poor.

        • Ad 5.1.2.1

          The Cabbages are revolting!

          • BM 5.1.2.1.1

            Have you tried cutting the cabbage into slices, covering them with a balsamic vinegar and then grilling them for a few minutes quite tasty.

          • dukeofurl 5.1.2.1.2

            Food prices rising to the higher levels on the Continent was one of the worries back when Britain joined EU.
            They were used to lower prices from commonwealth. We would charge them market rates now !

        • miravox 5.1.2.2

          The brexiters believe a lot of things that specialists in the relevant fields don’t. Including economists

          https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2016/jun/24/global-markets-ftse-pound-uk-leave-eu-brexit-live-updates?page=with:block-576db104e4b0be24d34f5fea#block-576db104e4b0be24d34f5fea

          E.g:

          The record 8%-ish slump in the pound on Friday has raised fears that UK inflation could spike (as imports will cost more).

          That would be bad news for poorer citizens, says the IPPR think tank tonight.

          Using Treasury modelling of currency shocks, IPPR finds that a 2.3 percent increase in CPI will increase costs for the poorest households by 3.3 per cent, compared to a 1.6 per cent increase for the richest 10 percent of families.

          • BM 5.1.2.2.1

            Change is good as it leads to other opportunities.

            The most important factor here is that England controls it’s own destiny, the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels can go fuck themselves.

            • miravox 5.1.2.2.1.1

              That would include the faceless Nigel Farage MEP?

            • locus 5.1.2.2.1.2

              The UK begged 3 times over 11 years to be let in to the EEC. The reasons they needed to be part of the European community back then are even more pertinent now.

              There are hundreds of millions of Europeans who are proud to be part of the EU, and pleased to have an EU parliament that makes great laws for the whole of Europe, and is fundamentally more transparent and open to scrutiny than many of the factional propoganda driven national governments.

              Sadly for 16 million british voters, plus the overwhelming majority of scots, northern irish, gibraltarians and Lononers who voted to remain, they will lose much of the goodwill and 43 years worth of negotiated EU benefits due to short-sighted narrow-minded , utterly self serving conmen who ran the leave campaign

              • Peter

                As someone who came from the north of England I believe they voted to leave because.
                1 Zero hours contracts.
                2 Minimum wage.
                3 A future on and of the dole.
                4 A retirement fund made out of thin air.
                5 No chance of owning your own home.
                6 Can’t get your children into your local school.
                7 Can’t get to see your local doctor.
                8 Local hospital full aged parents can’t get treatment.
                They had nothing to loose.

                • Hanswurst

                  Couldn’t they just have voted to leave David Cameron, then?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    What, and get the same with Labour?

                  • OneTrack

                    Many of those issues were a consequence of being in the EU and Cameron, who was only the Prime Minister of a vassal state, couldn’t do much about it.

                    • Hanswurst

                      Absolute nonsense. European countries are largely autonomous. The problem is that some Britons associated those issues with Europe because immigrants.

                • KJT

                  I consider it was likely more a vote of no confidence in the anti-democratic and arrogant, UK and EU establishment than most of the often cited reasons.

                  Polls show that more than 50% of the citizens of other EU countries would vote to leave, given the choice.

          • dukeofurl 5.1.2.2.2

            There used to be expert consensus too that there would be benefits from UK joining Euro too.
            They statistical models for a lot of these things which in the economic area can lead to much wishful thinking

          • Draco T Bastard 5.1.2.2.3

            The other side of that coin is that British products and services will be in more demand thus producing more jobs and increasing wages.

            • miravox 5.1.2.2.3.1

              there is that. The New Economics Foundation believes this won#t happen before poor households are hurt
              http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/brexit-the-immediate-risks

              First the important depreciation of the British Pound, which is currently underway, means that UK households will suffer – particularly the poorest ones.

              A strong currency depreciation renders imported goods more expensive – relative to domestic goods and domestic wages. In theory people can switch their consumption away from imported goods (e.g. imported foodstuff) towards domestically produced ones. But this assumes that an economy is able to substitute imported goods with domestic production quickly and easily.

              This is currently not the case for the British economy, which has a record-high trade deficit (particularly in manufacturing trade) and is running to the limits of its potential production. The consequence is simple: there will be inflation and people will have to spend more on the items they consume – losing purchasing power and cutting down on their expenditures in the process.

              My main concern with Brexit is that the laws and regulations that the Brexiters hate so much are also the ones that are have held the worst excesses of worker exploitation at bay and are socially and environmentally progressive. There will be no mood in a Tory-UKip world to keep these. My expectation is that a Corbyn-led Labour government would obviously be more sympathetic to these, however I don’t believe there is a lot of leeway to avoid poor households being worse of for quite some time.

              • KJT

                Depreciated currency = more demand for locally made goods, more demand for local workers, more competition between employers for workers. = higher wages = less poverty!

                • miravox

                  Except that after 30 years of neo-liberalism you’re asking the justifiably angry working classes to wait longer (maybe a lot longer if the Tories hold on) to get some benefit from the decision they made 2 days ago.

                  Condemning these people to greater poverty in the short-term will be the result of exiting if the economic reports from the NEF and IPPR are correct, and I’ve not seen anything to suggest they’re not. This is highly likely to be the reason the exiters seem reluctant to invoke Clause 50, I reckon.

                  Asking for trouble. They’re already finding out they’ve been lied to
                  – there won’t be 350mil per wk for for the NHS
                  – Immigration will still continue unabated
                  – Turkey won’t be joining the EU any time soon

                  Votes were based on these lies. If you think the working classes are angry now, just wait to see what will happen if they’re asked to take a little more for the good of the cause.

      • infused 5.1.3

        57% of fuck all is stil fuck all. Congrats. UK use to be one of the biggest trading powers in the world.

        And you AD, you numpty, think this trade is going to suddenly stop.

        • Ad 5.1.3.1

          The markets will take a few months to digest this.
          But so far it’s fully as expected; tanking.

          Society will love the democratic thrill of it all, but will find they can’t eat their voting paper.

        • miravox 5.1.3.2

          UK use to be one of the biggest trading powers in the world.

          Do you think imperialism is still an option?

  6. tinfoilhat 6

    Labour have every right to think they might win the next UK election, however, politics in the modern world is more of a personal popularity contest than it used to be, is Corbyn likely to win that part of the contest against the new Tory leader ?

  7. Ad 7

    Hey you Labour MP’s:

    Keep Calm and Carry On

  8. save nz 8

    Leadership stability is key for Labour, and no infighting +10000

  9. Pat 9

    “People will be looking for leadership from Labour. Descending into a leadership stoush at this stage will only increase disillusionment with politics in general and Labour in particular.”

    Although people SHOULD be looking for leadership from Labour(or at least some sensible alternative) I fear the disillusion with mainstream politics has now pushed beyond that…..failed by the existing, people are seeking remedy from the extreme….and its worth remembering you don’t need a majority to bring the game to an end.

    • Colonial Viper 9.1

      Labour still can’t be arsed listening to the voices of the people. They still know better than the unwashed masses, apparently.

      • Richardrawshark 9.1.1

        No CV they just can’t forget Blair, He ruined Labour, and anyone remotely looking neo lib in Labour or pro the remain camp (Corbyn) need to move aside now the public have spoken so Labour rightly are pushing for his replacement.

        This was never a labour VS Tory vote, it was free, democratic, we had representatives from both camps being from both parties.

        The clean up starts , MP’s are questioning there beleifs, if they wish to serve the democratic wishes of the people they read so wrong for so long, I would say a lot of MP’s are having a very thoughtful moment, and that’s happening in both the Tories and the Left.

  10. Paul 10

    We have the same neoliberal muppets here.
    Shearer and Goff come to mind.

  11. ianmac 11

    Talking of Leadership:
    Mr Key says nothing much will change for New Zealand.
    Rod Oram says there are very serious changes and challenges ahead. Who is correct?

    Brexit could trigger a crash of the World Economy and we would be helpless.
    The divorce could take years and business traders cannot wait or be in limbo.
    Our trade in red meat is with Europe rather than UK so with UK going alone their farming sector will tighten up on the rejection of NZ meat.
    And Rod thinks Johnson is UK’s Donald Trump.
    Kim Hill with Rod:
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/201805879/rod-oram

  12. Tory 12

    Why move against Corbyn? Quite simply because he is linked to Cammerons failure. Let’s be clear, BREXIT is great for semi retired professionals such as me but disastrous for the blue collar worker. Scotland may vote for independence but again who wins given currently the UK pays in billions of pounds per year to the help the Scottish economy? The winners are me and losers are working class. Strange times we live in…..

    • mickysavage 12.1

      He is only linked to Cameron’s failure by the right who are trying to spread the blame around.

    • mickysavage 12.2

      He is only linked to Cameron’s failure by the right who are trying to spread the blame around.

    • Richardrawshark 12.3

      Corbyn was in the remain camp. His position now is untenable, with Cameron resigning his options now are nil.

      • RedLogix 12.3.1

        So the 48% of British who voted to stay should resign also?

        • Anne 12.3.1.1

          Close on 70% of Labour voters appear to have voted to “remain”, and a bunch of brain-addled, entitled Blairite “muppets” (Brit. Labour should publiciy name each and every one of them) balls-up Labour’s chance of winning a fresh election either later this year or early next year.

          Following the angst and anguish of the past 24 hrs, I believe Corbyn’s political philosophy and policies would be ripe for acceptance by the majority of Brits. But no… a bunch of self serving, careerist Blairites want to use the outcome to dump Corbyn cos, cos… he wasn’t their choice. Jesus wept!

          Edit: I see you have said much the same @ 15.1 Redlogix but I’ll leave this here to ‘labour’ the point.

          • KJT 12.3.1.1.1

            Britains ABC’s.

            Unfortunately the “left” in both countries have the same contempt for Democracy as the “right”.

      • dukeofurl 12.3.2

        Only 10 labour Mps were for Brexit!

        Does that mean one of them becomes party leader ?

        • Richardrawshark 12.3.2.1

          Does the UK Labour party require you to be an MP to lead the party?

          Don’t round on me because I threw in one possible reason they want him gone, Not my fault they didn’t think about the reason too much. Either that or he’s a dick and they want him gone, who knows? the in house politics of UK Labour?.

      • Tooting Popular Front 12.3.3

        Corbyn was lukewarm on Europe and has been a Eurosceptic most of his political life. The labour supporters in Britain voted lukewarm for Europe – it seems reasonable to suppose that Corbyn is right in line with his supporters, he listens to them, they vote how they feel.

    • Pat 12.4

      and there you have the reason…..the wealthy prosper at the expense of the rest, regardless of the choice….and when this fails to change that, what next?

    • KJT 12.5

      After they took tens of billions of pounds out of Scotland, especially in oil exports, to pretend that Thatcherism was working.

  13. Foreign waka 13

    The vote was decided on the fact that Brussels is interfering into UK’s politics – as it does in all other EU countries and the anger about this is h u g e – plus the issue of immigration set to increase by millions (64 mil on the move worldwide).
    Essentially, decisions are being made on the back of those who finance with their ever decreasing incomes an every increasing bureaucracy and talk fest. So those who are affected most said with this vote – enough. The mistake by all those who thought that Britain will stay was that they did not recognize, as you do in an ivory tower, that there are now more than 50% that are not getting their fair share and in fact have to pay more and more at the expense of their future survival. Perceived or otherwise. Britain has set the tone, it would not be such a surprise if the EU union falls apart within the next 3 years.

  14. Jenny 14

    It wasn’t the government that kept Labour out of the picture during this campaign. It was the Labour Party itself, who made themselves invisible during this campaign, allowing the UK Idependence Party and the far right to fill the vacuum.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/snakes-and-ladders/#comment-1194014

    Instead of UKIP party Nigel Farage,standing before the television cameras, it should have been Jeremy Corbyn.

    If Labour had taken a concerted anti-free trade, anti-TTIP, and anti-corporate-global-rule, platform and recognised the yearning for freedom from the corporate domination by the EU elites, that the NO vote tapped into.
    And if Labour had also tied this into anti-war and support for migrants and refugees, and explained why, they could have won this debate and isolated the Right wing and the Xenophobic racists in UKIP.

    After all it is the EU that is now erecting borders against refugees, and it is EU bombers that have joined the Assad the US and Russian airforces in carpet bombing Syrian cities, with the French airforce flattening the Syian City of Al-Raqqah the so called capital of ISIS.

    It is not ISIS terror, the refugees are fleeing, it is the terror from the air supported and carried out by the West the EU and the US, and for good measure in an act of one-up-man-ship to demonstrate that they too can bomb other countries and get away with it the Russian Federation.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2016/06/refugee-crisis-160620083009119.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Chammal

    http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/russian-bombing-of-syria

    Add to all this, the massive aerial assault by the West’s darling Assad against his own people, and you can see why an anti-war, pro refugee, anti EU anti austerity platform could have captured the Brexit campaign and isolated the Torries and the UKIP.

    https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=assad+and+the+queen&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=482&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS-4r08cHNAhXGpJQKHbKAAHMQsAQIGQ

    • ropata 14.1

      You are so right. Why do scumbags like Nigel bloody Farage and tory clown Boris Johnson get to be the voice of disaffected the UK working class?

    • Sanctary 14.2

      What bullshit. This referendum was Cameron s idea, not Corbyns. The remain campaign was a fear mongering disaster from a bunch of tin earred neoliberals. Are you seriously suggesting Corbyn should have been part of a campaign where neolib economics was the main plank? The minute Corbyn got up on a stage and common cause with Tony Blair in defense oF neoliberal economic orthdoxy his credibility as a genuine change option would have vanished. Your idiotic idea that Corbyn have been balls deep in defending something his heartland bote doesn’t like would have delivered the Midlands to UKIP, just like Labour’s defence of orthodoxy delivered Scotland to the SNP. Corbyn did enough to keep a foot both camps, while letting Cameron twist in the wind. Only the arrogant establishment Blairites think he should ha e committed suicide by siding with the Tory establishment. It is obvious there is around 40-50 disaffected Blairite MPs the media can run to for a reliable anti-Corbyn beat up. They will defect the moment a Corbyn led Labour wins power in order to defend the neoliberal establishment, mark my words.

  15. Draco T Bastard 15

    But Corbyn’s opponents are also “absolutely convinced” that they have the backing of the 51 MPs/MEPs needed to endorse a leadership challenger and trigger a contest.

    Wonder if they’ll do the decent thing and resign their positions after Corbyn gets voted back in by the membership.

    • RedLogix 15.1

      My thinking too. This is one treachery too far. Not just disloyal to Corbyn, not just to the UK Labour Party, nor even to the people who elected them, but utterly incompatible with any sense of the idea of public duty. It’s a naked, self-interested, ugly power-grab.

      Their actions at this critical moment are crazy-making. It’s Labour’s most valuable opportunity to demonstrate that is worthy of being in government, and these muppets would sooner sabotage it than accept the possibility of Corbyn being Prime Minister.

  16. infused 16

    lol you have no idea. UK Labour is in as much ‘crisis’ as shown by the idiotic way they reacted after the vote. No more silver spoon once they retire now.

  17. Lanthanide 17

    Here’s Corbyn saying he only supports EU at a “7 out of 10” level: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36506163

    He also refused to share the stage with any other pro-EU politician, such as David Cameron.

    It *does* present a confused message to the Labour party voters.

    • RedLogix 17.1

      The point is that the EU desperately needed reform.

      You don’t reform things by taking a cricket bat to them.

      • Infused 17.1.1

        Why would it reform? It dosent have to. Thats the whole point

      • jcuknz 17.1.2

        That was what I thought too Redlogic, though as an ex-pom, 62yrs now in NZ I don’t have much interest in those left behind.
        I just hope they remember that nz fed them in the past and could do so now even though they represent just 2% of our export trade I heard somewhere.

        • Mrs Brillo 17.1.2.1

          If the UK comes back schmoozing the Old Commonwealth, talking about kith and kin, and asking us to be their best trading buddies again, I hope they arrive on their knees.

          And I hope our negotiators have the ovaries to really screw down some punitive deals with the Poms.

          Some of us have long memories, and remember the lies they told us in the 1970s before dumping New Zealand trade and leaving us to scratch for a living.

          Let them discover how a small island nation fares in rough waters. They had it coming.

          • Ad 17.1.2.1.1

            Yup.
            Same for all those old colonies.
            Australia. South Africa. India. Pakistan. Canada. British Guyana. Zimbabwe.

            And of course, dem Yankees. Ain’t no point having a ‘special relationship’ when they no longer give any access to Europe.

            Having just determined to decolonize themselves, they will feel what it was like to be the supplicant.

            Perhaps the English can humbly request a larger diplomatic presence in Dublin?

          • Grumpy 17.1.2.1.2

            I am having fun in Europe reminding people of that!

      • Draco T Bastard 17.1.3

        Sometimes the only way to get the needed reform is to break the system.

        • Paul 17.1.3.1

          Agreed

        • RedLogix 17.1.3.2

          That may well be true DtB, just so long as you don’t mind living with a mess for a while.

          • weka 17.1.3.2.1

            Some people are already living with a mess, that’s the point.

            • RedLogix 17.1.3.2.1.1

              Righto … so a bigger mess will help.

              I’m an evolutionary rather than revolutionary kind of guy. And the way evolution works is that successful adaptations only have to be a little bit better than their alternatives.

              Problem is that for thirty years the left has rarely managed to be that ‘little bit better’. The right is united by the power of money and its class instincts, the left eat’s it’s own.

              • weka

                The thing I keep thinking in the past day is that if Remain had won, nothing would have changed for the people that voted Leave out of desperation. There is no incremental adaptation in the right direction in the UK. I don’t think any ensuing mess is good, but I don’t think that the status quo is good either. At least this way something might be forced to change. It’s sad that it’s gotten to that but I can’t see how anything would have changed if Remain had won. Worse, the people that do well out of neoliberalism, even those of us who work to end it, would be ok. We’re not really willing to put the things on the line that would effect real change.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  There is no incremental adaptation in the right direction in the UK.

                  Or anywhere else for that matter.

                  I don’t think any ensuing mess is good, but I don’t think that the status quo is good either.

                  And the status quo won’t bring about the required changes.

                  It’s sad that it’s gotten to that but I can’t see how anything would have changed if Remain had won.

                  Bingo.

              • Colonial Viper

                I’m an evolutionary rather than revolutionary kind of guy. And the way evolution works is that successful adaptations only have to be a little bit better than their alternatives.

                But sometimes you have to make both a qualitative and quantitative leap. Going from 4 legs to 2, for instance. Or going from not flying to flying.

                The BREXIT vote is about ordinary people raising their voices and putting evolutionary pressure on the elites, left and right, to improve their currently senile, avaracious, morally bankrupt leadership.

                If the power elite do not listen, the volume will be turned up further.

                • weka

                  Very well put CV.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  The move from four legs to two took millennia. So did flight.

                  The lure of populism is just as much a tool of the elite as moral bankruptcy and avarice. They’ve been around for millennia too.

                  • weka

                    Nevertheless the pressure is still there in a way that it wasn’t before.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      The pressure to do what, as expressed by whom? As Bill has noted, both “sides” in the “debate” based their arguments on fear.

                      This is probably the most intelligent comment so far: …we now live in a post-factual democracy…

                    • weka

                      You seem to be thinking that the pressure is something intentional coming from specific people. It’s not. It’s a natural consequence of the mess we were already in. At the moment the debate is being polarised, and that is stopping the dynamics from being explored. There are far more than two sides here. It’s not about right or wrong or good or bad, it’s about what is happening.

                      IMO the downsides of Brexit (esp the racism) were happening anyway and set to get a lot worse. Because of globalisation and neoliberalism and the ways in which those things were inextricable. At this point in time I just don’t think it’s possible for the benefits of the EU to exist without shitting on a whole bunch of people. And in the past day I see a whole lot of privileged people upset because they’re going to lose some privileges that in the face of climate change and possible extreme oppression just don’t seem worth it to me.

                      I don’t think open borders are inherently a good thing, so your link doesn’t speak to me.

                    • weka

                      Btw, as for post-factual democracy, can you see if you can find some reliable figures for turnout by age? We were looking before to see if the claim that young people voted overwhelmingly to stay was true or if it was high because lots of young people who would have voted leave didn’t vote (I would guess it’s a mix of reasons).

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Now you seem to be arguing that, far from being new, all the pressures were already there.

                      I think it’s a mistake to assume that because racists and those whose lives have been ruined by right wing lies took the same side on this issue, that they have now formed some manner of constituency.

                      No doubt Farage or some other dirtbag will make the effort, though.

                    • I liked the link OAB – very good.

                      I really think that any honest and good intention from the exit side will be hoovered up by the bigots and brownshits and used, along with their narrowminded tightly held beliefs of superiority, to isolate that island and demonise others, especially immigrants and refugees.

                    • weka

                      Yes, there were pressures already there, and now there are additional ones. One of them is the fact that the comfortably off are now getting bloody uncomfortable. Might be time for them to do the right thing.

                      “I think it’s a mistake to assume that because racists and those whose lives have been ruined by right wing lies took the same side on this issue, that they have now formed some manner of constituency.”

                      I definitely don’t see them as having formed some kind of constituency, I don’t even seem them as being on the same side (that’s a coincidence as much as anything). I agree that Farage is a huge problem and will do a lot of damage.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      If reports are accurate, the turnout was higher among the elderly, lower among the “working class”.

                      Turnout also seems to have been lower in communities that voted to remain.

                      Goodness knows what to make of that. As Andrew Geddis put it: “the interweb’s voluminous reckons…”

                    • weka

                      “I really think that any honest and good intention from the exit side will be hoovered up by the bigots and brownshits and used, along with their narrowminded tightly held beliefs of superiority, to isolate that island and demonise others, especially immigrants and refugees.”

                      I’ve seen a few harrowing tweets from Brits telling stories like how they’ve just seen a Polish woman on a bus with her kid being told by a Anglo woman that she has to get out now. Horrible stuff and there will be worse. What I want to know is what the tweeters did when they saw this.

                      Because the racists didn’t just appear overnight and being part of the EU wasn’t stopping them from being racist. So time to change what we are doing. A slide into fascism or entrenched bigotry isn’t inevitable. If 48% said remain, are they now going to stand up and do the right things? I suspect many won’t, but I hope enough do.

                    • weka

                      @OAB, complex as fuck is how I’d put it. At the moment the internet seems to be full of people panicking.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      This is probably the most intelligent comment so far: …we now live in a post-factual democracy…

                      Nope. It’s pretty much a load of bollocks.

                      The ‘experts’ that it’s saying that we should listen to are the ones that advocate for the policies that caused the problem in the first place. Listening to them won’t get you any facts, just more ideology.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Draco, it’s possible that you know more about this than the people who are actually affected by it.

                      “A prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism…” DIscuss 🙄

                    • @ weka

                      “Because the racists didn’t just appear overnight and being part of the EU wasn’t stopping them from being racist.”

                      true but they are emboldened now and the hardcore will drag the edges and the centre of balance will/is moving. And sadly calls of, “I didn’t mean THAT” and so on will be too little too late.

                      I agree that there is a massive can of worms there and imo that cleaning that out is the goal and I think the vote has made it harder, if not impossible, to do that.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      “A prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism…”

                      Is too fucken broad which is why I limited it to only the economists and banksters that caused the GFC that have been so bloody wrong – for 200+ years.

                      I think you’ll find that it’s not a case, yet, of general anti-intellectualism but of anti-economists. The people who have promised that things will be so much better if we all do x, y, z but after doing x, y, z the majority are worse off and they only see a few getting richer. After seeing that for a few decades they’re now pushing back.

                      Unfortunately, there isn’t a plan to go with that push.

                    • weka

                      “I agree that there is a massive can of worms there and imo that cleaning that out is the goal and I think the vote has made it harder, if not impossible, to do that.”

                      And yet under Remain it wasn’t going to happen either. Because IMO too many people were too comfortable and so wouldn’t look at the people being left behind. Taking those people out of their comfort might be the only hope there is.

                      There is a similar dynamic here where privileged young people are blaming the baby boomers for not being able to buy a first home. But they’re not agitating for tenancy rights or rent control. And if the economy is tweaked so that they can buy their first home, they’ll be happy to jump on the investment bandwagon and bugger those below. It’s exactly those people that need to radicalise. And when they see someone being harassed on a bus for being an immigrant they need to take action, not just tweet how unfair post-Brexit. It was already unfair.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    The move from four legs to two took millennia. So did flight.

                    We’ve got maybe 10 or 15 years left to avoid the very worst that climate change and energy depletion is going to bring to our civilisation.

                    If our elites do not change very quickly, Trump, Golden Dawn and AfD are going to be primary school bullies compared to who will take power.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      I’d like to see a change away from arguments based on fear 🙄

                    • weka

                      And the people that are feeling scared?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      …can be manipulated for votes. Dire predictions of unspecified bullies spring to mind.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      If you don’t understand the mood of the electorate, you lose.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      If you say so 😆

                    • weka

                      “…can be manipulated for votes. Dire predictions of unspecified bullies spring to mind.”

                      Yes, and others can be manipulated likewise with different tactics. So?

                      You avoided my question. If you want a move away from arguments based on fear, how will you talk to people who are scared?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      If you want a move away from arguments based on fear, how will you talk to people who are scared?

                      Arguments based on fear don’t help people who are scared. Pointing that out to them might be one way…

                    • weka

                      Telling people who are scared that they shouldn’t base their arguments on how they are feeling because it won’t work? Doesn’t sound like a useful strategy to me (and patronising). For instance, if you were to tell me that the fear I feel around climate change shouldn’t be part of my arguments for change, I would definitely have to disagree, and if at that point you insisted that I was wrong, we’re not going to get anywhere are we.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Sure Weka, if that’s how you’d approach it, I guess you’d get nowhere.

                      There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging the fear (especially given that most of us share it) and equally nothing wrong with acknowledging how useless it is as a decision-making tool.

                    • weka

                      So how would you approach it?

                      I don’t know what you mean by using it as a decision making tool. Because “I’m seriously scared of climate change so I’m going to act now” seems as good as anything else that is happening. If you mean that relying on it alone leads to poor judgement, I’d agree with that.

                      Here’s what CV said,

                      We’ve got maybe 10 or 15 years left to avoid the very worst that climate change and energy depletion is going to bring to our civilisation.

                      If our elites do not change very quickly, Trump, Golden Dawn and AfD are going to be primary school bullies compared to who will take power

                      Myself I think time based predictions are hugely problematic, but let’s say that the general sentiment is correct (we have a time within which to act and then it becomes increasingly too late, and that time is now).

                      Then, the fear mongering. Which is that people in power are going to be much much worse if we don’t do x, y, z and this will be really bad for us. Myself, I don’t think that’s a useful way to frame things, but the fear on CV’s part seems a legitimate motivator to me. I don’t agree with what he does after that point, but if he really believes that then what’s the problem? By all means address the claim, but writing it off because it involves fear is a problem, because many people are scared. Telling them they’re wrong somehow to be basing their politics on that, I just don’t think it works. But I am interested to hear how you would approach such a thing.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      I just said how I’d approach it. Start by acknowledging it (the fear), then move on to practical concerns, including the potential for people to exploit that fear.

                      As an illustration, I’d offer a comparison between the strategies employed by Sanders and Trump, and the relative success – in that Sanders has probably achieved something, and Trump’s tanty trainwreck, not so much.

                • Poission

                  The BREXIT vote is about ordinary people raising their voices and putting evolutionary pressure on the elites, left and right, to improve their currently senile, avaracious, morally bankrupt leadership.

                  Two predictions come to pass from the Dilbert Future.

                  Prediction 32 (page 127)
                  In the future, the balance of employment power will change.
                  We’ll witness the revenge of the downsized.

                  Prediction 26 (page 102)
                  In the future, voters will be so baffled that they’ll want smart people
                  with bad hair to tell them what to do.

    • weka 17.2

      “It *does* present a confused message to the Labour party voters.”

      A confusing message about what? The video in your link is very clear.

  18. Adrian 18

    So the richest 15 people in Britain just lost 8 billion pounds, no wonder Bumbling Boris looked so pale and shaken in his ” victory ” speech last night. I’ve rarely seen a polly look so deflated.
    Somebody must have passed him a note that a contract had been let or that they had pictures of him at the other end of the pig that his mate Cameron was cock-choking.
    Etonian Pig Fuckers, great name for a band.

    • Colonial Viper 18.1

      The 0.1% who shifted assets out of the pound beforehand have just made a shit load of money. The real players make a tonne of money out of volatility.

      • Richardrawshark 18.1.1

        🙂 even if it was a pittance.

      • Grumpy 18.1.2

        The currency is recovering. The fluctuations are about the same as we see frequently with the $NZ. The biggest market falls are on the European and American exchanges. Britain has done relatively well so far.

        • Colonial Viper 18.1.2.1

          The repercussions of the BREXIT are going to take several months to play out in the financial markets. The reaction of the last 24 hours suggests that market fundamentals are broken and that fact has now been exposed.

          As one commentator has said – negative interest rates are coming to every country in the western world because first world economies are now on chemo.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 18.1.2.1.1

            The Ken Ring approach: total economic collapse by 2013 2014 2015 2016

  19. Incognito 19

    At the first whiff of power the infighting starts, again. Luckily, that’s where the similarities between UK and NZ Labour Parties stop except perhaps for the fact that they both have thriving ABC factions?

    • Paul 19.1

      The neo-liberal factions in both parties are the problem.

    • Anne 19.2

      😀

      I think the NZ Labour Party’s ABC faction has been pretty much disbanded. Thanks Andrew Little.

      If the UK Labour membership vote overwhelmingly to retain Jeremy Corbyn – and at some point surely there will have to be membership vote – then they should demand the leaders of the current coup resign their parliamentary seats forthwith. They might not fully succeed, but I beleive it would shut the ‘muppets’ up once and for all.

  20. Tory 20

    So you have just replaced Neo liberal politics with politics based on nationalism, racism and extremism. The fragmentation of UK politics will see political extremism (left and right) gain appeal. The politics of centralism have a huge challenge; interesting to see that the disaffected voted so strongly for change and change has succeeded in so far that they have jumped out of the frypan and into the fire,.

    • Grumpy 20.1

      I don’t think the old groupings of left and right work anymore. When Conservatives like Boris attract heavy support from the Midlands working class, then that is a serious realignment n British politics. We can see it in the US as well with Only 40% of Bernie supporters willing to vote for Clinton. The message of the right and traditional left are merging.

    • Stuart Munro 20.2

      The nation state is the unit of political accountability – nationalism is necessary to control elite character flaws.

  21. Paul 21

    ‘So you have just replaced Neo liberal politics with politics based on nationalism, racism and extremism. ‘

    I have done nothing!
    The UK, meanwhile, ……..

    • Pat 21.1

      except the politics haven’t changed….yet. The elites probably have one last chance to discard neoliberalism….if they fail to seize that opportunity THEN you may see your politics of nationalism, racism and extremism take control…..I won’t hold my breath however they will learn the lesson.

      • Redelusion 21.1.1

        Is not the leave vote one against the social democratic model of the EU

        • Pat 21.1.1.1

          no …the leave vote is a vote against the status quo….unfortunately the status quo will likely remain EU or no.

    • Redelusion 21.2

      vote is for conservatism, small government and capitalism

  22. Grumpy 22

    Being currently in Germany, I just can’t help myself and have engaged with many locals who confuse me for English. The a germany honestly just cannot comprehend why Britain should vote to leave. They have no concept of sovereignty, that part of their psyche seems to have been well extinguished from the a german make up.
    Interestingly, the English I have spoken to in the last day all cite concern for the Brussels bureaucracy and although they are almost entirely remain believe that if the EU mandarins had given Cameron just a bit more than they did in the recent negotiations, that Britain would have voted “stay”.
    News coverage seems to focus on the perceived “working class” and “uneducated” leave voters. That sound to me like the old traditional Labour voters who seem to have followed Boris. I can’t see how Corbyn could have countered that.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 22.1

      We should add that to the list of things you can’t see, or are you keeping a tally?

    • Colonial Viper 22.2

      Thanks for the report Grumpy

      • Grumpy 22.2.1

        You’re welcome. Will spend tonight in the hotel bar, should be interesting. My own company, a large Danish Industrial group moved all its production to Poland making its Danish workforce unemployed. At the same time Denmark opened its borders to large numbers of migrant who compete for the low paid jobs available. Huge welfare payments paid for by the few who work mean ridiculously high taxes.
        Globalization = EU = profits for the owners = low wages or welfare.
        Until now the Europeans could see no way to break the cycle. Brexit has shown the way and that’s what the lite is scared of.

        • Colonial Viper 22.2.1.1

          My own company, a large Danish Industrial group moved all its production to Poland making its Danish workforce unemployed. At the same time Denmark opened its borders to large numbers of migrant who compete for the low paid jobs available. Huge welfare payments paid for by the few who work mean ridiculously high taxes.

          Geeezus. Then you get all these wonderful better off, well educated Labour Party MPs and supporters voting “REMAIN”. They really are out of touch with the ordinary working man.

          • Grumpy 22.2.1.1.1

            I have watched this economic suicide from the inside for 25years. How could the elite not know what was to happen in UK and is about to happen throughout Europe? There is a reason EU went after the Balkan and Warsaw Pact states, cheap labour and globalization. The corporations make mega bucks and leave an increasingly impoverished domestic workforce.

          • Grumpy 22.2.1.1.2

            But these wonderful better off Labour MPs will die in a ditch for LGBT and migrant rights. Probably attend every Boycott and Divestment protest against Israel too. Nothing like a distraction.

            • Paul 22.2.1.1.2.1

              Easier than fighting for workers’ rights and upsetting international capital.

              • Colonial Viper

                and look womens’ low wages should be equally shit as mens’ low wages

  23. fisiani 23

    The Muppets cannot get rid of Corbyn. The muppets do not choose the leader. Same as NZ Labour. Thus in both countries you end up with an unelectable leader despised by their colleagues but loved by the elitist members who do not reflect the voters.

    • Sanctary 23.1

      You need a job in a Hallmark factory, they are always on the lookout for mindless slogans.

    • ropata 23.2

      WTF are you smoking Fisiani?

      Corbyn was elected by popular acclaim of the party membership not the “elite” inner circle of MPs. The muppets are the Labour MPs who were proven to be woefully out of touch with their own constituency by voting Remain (alongside their true leader David Cameron) and endlessly plotting against Corbyn

      • Redelusion 23.2.1

        No the muppets are corbyn and his labour activist who have lost touch with thier heart land voters in the north who overwhelmingly voted leave Corbym with Cameron both gone burgers

        • One Anonymous Bloke 23.2.1.1

          Please don’t read any analysis of the turnout before commenting again. It will only confuse you.

          • Colonial Viper 23.2.1.1.1

            Outside of London, all the poorer/post-industrial areas of England voted for BREXIT. Midlands, Yorkshire, the North East. Wales too.

            Poorer, lower social class, lower qualified people – the working class kind who used to be core Labour support – were the least likely to vote for REMAIN.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 23.2.1.1.1.1

              Baby steps. The word to direct your attention to is turnout, and the argument it refutes is Reddelusion’s. Not sure what your point is.

              • Redelusion

                Ok OAB only the rich in the north voted,if that makes you feel better

                • ropata

                  I don’t think you can draw any anti-Corbyn conclusions from the Brexit result. It’s more complex than that and highlights divisions all across the UK; on class lines, urban v. rural, English v. Northern, young v. old, …

                  Corbyn’s “support” for Remain was lukewarm at best and there was no way he would appear doing anything to look supportive of pigrooter Cameron

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Not really: the demographics make for quite uncomfortable reading when you consider the divisions they represent.

      • Whateva Next 23.2.2

        Agree, it is the Right wing tactic of “divide and rule” working well for them once more, but oh, WHEN will people stop falling for it????

      • fisiani 23.2.3

        The elite are the few thousand people who are members of Labour UK or the 6,000, n0w 4,000 (after the Chinese sounding names fiasco) Labour NZ members who are so out of touch with the hopes and aspirations of the voters. Voters want
        a job – more are employed than ever.
        a pay rise- most well ahead of inflation
        a home – 140 a day being built
        a hospital -more doctors and nurses than ever
        a decent school – NCEA pass rates rising
        free health care for kids, tick
        increase benefits and pensions Tick
        the long list of improvements goes on and on.

  24. Sanctary 24

    Every Scot I know (all under 25) voted to stay both in the UK and in the EU. They (sample size five) will all now vote for independence. Scotland will leave the UK within the next two years and with a huge mandate to do so.

    • Paul 24.1

      Agreed

    • Grumpy 24.2

      Scotland is not a viable state. It stays afloat through EU and UK handouts. Won’t happen. Northern Ireland, on the other hand might leave and join with Eire. Again huge EU handouts.
      Interestingly, UK pay an unbelievable amount to the EU for administration, which is many times higher than the EU pays out to UK.
      With the UK dropping out and no decrease in a EU bureaucracy, the countries left will need to pay more, read Germany and France, who do not get along and France has a growing exit movement it does not want to fuel.

      • Colonial Viper 24.2.1

        Scotland is not a viable state. It stays afloat through EU and UK handouts.

        It’s only digital currency. It has the population, industry and natural resources required to be an independent country.

        Mind you, Scotland will not be a financially viable state if it chooses to join the Euro instead of having its own sovereign currency.

  25. Draco T Bastard 25

    New Statesman: I want my country back

    Finally, someone gave them the opportunity to vote for change, for any change at all. When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like David Cameron’s face.

    This was not just a vote against Europe, but a vote against Westminster and the entirety of mainstream politics.

    Pretty much says it all really. But that’s about the only thing I agree with in that article. The rest of it is just more scaremongering.

  26. KJT 26

    https://opendemocracy.net/uk/enrico-tortolano/eu-and-other-neoliberal-nightmares

    Pretty much says it all.

    ‘Voting to leave the EU is a no-brainer for the Left. The European Union is remote, racist, imperialist, anti-worker and anti-democratic: It is run by, of, and for the super-rich and their corporations. A future outside austerity and other economic blunders rests on winning the struggle to exit the EU, removing us from its neoliberal politics and institutions. Corporate bureaucrats in Brussels working as agents of the big banks and transnationals’ now exert control over every aspect of our lives. Neoliberal policies and practices dominate the European Commission, European Parliament, European Central Bank, European Court of Justice and a compliant media legitimises the whole conquest. This has left the EU constitution as the only one in the world that enshrines neoliberal economics into its text. Therefore the EU is not – and never can be – either socialist or a democracy.

    Against the left’s strategic case for exit is relentless blither and blather from the elitist liberal commentariat: the EU is a social-democratic haven that protects us from the nasty Tories is their litany and verse. This is an absurd fantasy: by design the EU is a corporatist, pro-capitalist establishment. Therefore, it strains credulity that the bulk of the Parliamentary Labour Party and a rump of the trade union movement believe in the myth of Social Europe”.

    After the anti democratic destruction of Greece, leaving is the only rational decision.

    Note the only votes for staying, from the “left” come from privileged and well off, “Chardonnay socialists”.

  27. KJT 27

    https://opendemocracy.net/uk/enrico-tortolano/eu-and-other-neoliberal-nightmares

    Pretty much says it all.

    ‘Voting to leave the EU is a no-brainer for the Left. The European Union is remote, racist, imperialist, anti-worker and anti-democratic: It is run by, of, and for the super-rich and their corporations. A future outside austerity and other economic blunders rests on winning the struggle to exit the EU, removing us from its neoliberal politics and institutions. Corporate bureaucrats in Brussels working as agents of the big banks and transnationals’ now exert control over every aspect of our lives. Neoliberal policies and practices dominate the European Commission, European Parliament, European Central Bank, European Court of Justice and a compliant media legitimises the whole conquest. This has left the EU constitution as the only one in the world that enshrines neoliberal economics into its text. Therefore the EU is not – and never can be – either socialist or a democracy.

    Against the left’s strategic case for exit is relentless blither and blather from the elitist liberal commentariat: the EU is a social-democratic haven that protects us from the nasty Tories is their litany and verse. This is an absurd fantasy: by design the EU is a corporatist, pro-capitalist establishment. Therefore, it strains credulity that the bulk of the Parliamentary Labour Party and a rump of the trade union movement believe in the myth of Social Europe”.

    After the anti democratic destruction of Greece, leaving is the only rational decision.

    The EU has been an anti-democratic, Neo-liberal project, from the beginning.

    Note the only votes for staying, from the “left” come from privileged and well off, “Chardonnay socialists”.

    • Draco T Bastard 27.1

      +1

    • miravox 27.2

      Pretty much says it all?

      Every one of those criticisms could be leveled at any variety of government the UK has had since Thatcher!

      Just as national govts are left or right, so is the elected EU parliament. Without doubt, the neo-libs are in charge in the EU at the moment. Saying vote leaving is a good idea because the EU is right wing is like saying you’re swapping one neo-liberal corporatist project for another one, but at least it’s our neo-liberal corporatist project (as an aside I’m pretty sure the social democrats, unlike Labour in the UK made gains in the last EU elections). Working class people subject to the brutality of the neo-liberal era will continue to be subject to that brutality under a UK Tory or so-called third way labour government with or without the EU. Hey, if NZ can do over its own people without the EU, I’m sure our PM’s text buddy Cameron is just as capable of doing the same without the EU!

      A couple of points in the article
      – I’ve no time for what the troika did to Greece. I didn’t see the UK arguing against that. It could have.
      – Student loans are a national, not EU issue. UK has them, Germany doesn’t
      – People in the UK that I know, who are on the left and supported remaining and are not in any form ‘chardonnay socialists.’ Some of their friends and family voted to exit. Of course I know others who are chardonnay socialists (but don’t live in the UK). It’s a mixed bag.

      The trouble with leaving, imo, is important environmental, worker and social protections come from the EU and not the UK government. I base that opinion partly on living within the same EU project as the UK, but without the Tory government.

      I expect the first thing the UK govt will do on leaving will be reduce working conditions, allow fracking, ignore climate change targets and water-down human rights legislation.

    • locus 27.3

      KJT – Neoliberalism is not the basis of the EU. The EU is not all the emotive labels stuck on it by this one-eyed article, nor by the acolytes of UKIP and the Tory right.

      Yes, neoliberalism is a fundamental reason for the increasing divisions in society, but the ideological drivers for neoliberalism don’t come from the EU.

      The EU institutions and government are open to constant scrutiny from all member states, produce good laws and help to create a multinational forum for debate, discussion and stability. Not something I would say about most national governments.

      I’m heartily sick of all the ill-informed smearing and propoganda that is fabricated about the EU. In my view it’s mostly whipped up by racists, extreme nationalists and others with a political grudge wanting to get easy publicity.

      There are the hundreds of millions of people who are very pleased to be citizens of a united European Community. I am one.

      I am gutted by the Brexit vote, the reasons for it, the way the politicians lied and manipulated people during their campaigns, and the massive damage that leaving the EU will inflict on many millions of British people.

      Leaving the EU will take not take just a couple of years for UK governments to negotiate and mitigate – the fallout will take decades to repair.

      The UK would have a huge amount to do to make up for losing 43 years of partnership and membership of the EU, and right now their political leaders are probably thinking about this in a much more serious way than they did during over the last emotionally charged few weeks. It would be a monumental error to invoke article 50.

      Right now I think the first job for the UK government is not to rush for exit, but to try to understand the vote. The regions (and age-groups) that most clearly believe their way of life was being threatened or disadvantaged by being in the EU need to be a priority. IMO disentangling from the EU won’t do anything tangible to reduce the frustrations felt in post industrial and poorer areas of the UK where the majority of the brexit vote originated.

      Will this happen? I sincerely hope so, but it’s difficult to have any confidence in the politicians who lied and manipulated the truth during the referendum campaign. Moreover, it is unlikely that these same politicians have any real desire to listen to, understand and care about the problems of the people who delivered them Brexit.

      I believe that neo-liberal ideology is the root cause of many of the UK’s social and economic disparities, and that without a massive change, this discredited ideological system will continue to deepen the divisions in UK society…… irrespective of EU membership.

      While addressing the needs of the Brexiters, the UK government also has a formidable job to reduce the anger, sense of loss and fears of many millions who wanted to remain in the EU. A good start would be to allay the sense of betrayal that the majority of Scots, Northern Irish, Gibraltarians and the under-30s feel. For them, Brexit was driven by propoganda and lies, and will deny them their rights as citiizens within the wider European community.

      I’m not British or European so I should not have an emotional investment in the UK’s decision, but I do. I have many friends and family who are devastated.

      From the perspective of an outsider I can see that the Brexit decision has immediately led to a loss of international and European respect for the UK, and will result in diminished political and economic influence on the World stage. And while this may not matter to many Brexiters, it matters to many other millions that call the UK and the EU their home.

      I sincerely hope for the sake of the UK and the EU, their leaders now take a long hard look at what led to the Brexit vote, and deal with the root causes, rather than clinging to the fallacy that this is about reclaiming sovereignty and blaming all their ills on the EU.

  28. swordfish 28

    Dang ! Dang ! Dang !

    I’ve posted 3 comments tonight – 1 here and 2 on CV’s post (one of them quite a detailed overview of the geography of the EU vote in the Midlands and the North on a City-by-City basis). All of them have disappeared out into the ether – or maybe into spam ?

    Still, they say life’s a veil of tears …

    [RL: I’ve gone back into Trash and restored them.]

  29. ropata 29

    That’s an old, old phrase…

    http://www.biblestudytools.com/rhe/psalms/84.html

    Blessed is the man whose help is from thee: in his heart he hath disposed to ascend by steps,

    in the vale of tears, in the place which be hath set. “

  30. mosa 30

    I hope Jeremy Corbyn stands his ground and sees off this attack on his leadership because those that are forcing it are gutless cowards and undemocratic and in the wrong party.
    If he is replaced by a Lab neo lib then the party will split and would have lost the chance to roll back the current system that has a chocker hold on the middle class and working poor.
    And those that want too change their vote not too leave is a good example of why some people should not participate in democracy.

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