National lines ruined…

64 comments on “National lines ruined… ”

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1. Lanthanide 1

   28 April 2011 at 4:31 pm

   The last one is the most interesting. But in this case, Brash isn’t a member of parliament, so cannot be made a minister.
   • jaymam 1.1

     28 April 2011 at 5:02 pm

     So if Roger Douglas is made deputy, he can be a minister? Unfinished Business!
     “John Key said the coalition deal with ACT specified the leader and deputy leader getting to be ministers.”
     • Lanthanide 1.1.1

       28 April 2011 at 5:47 pm

       No, because Key also explicitly ruled Douglas out from having a ministerial position, even if he was Deputy or Leader.
       • felix 1.1.1.1

         28 April 2011 at 6:54 pm

         There’s no consistency from one position to the next.

         When Key sacked Heather from her Ministerial posts it was because she was no longer the deputy leader and that’s the rules of the agreement.

         But when it comes to Douglas suddenly they’re not really rules, more like guidelines.

         Key is just a pirate and he needs to be called out on this. If Douglas becomes deputy and doesn’t become a minister it’ll look very much like Key sacked Heather for no reason at all.

         Was it a 90 day clause or something?
2. Carol 2

   28 April 2011 at 5:17 pm

   And some of the responses are already being put out there by the opposition:

   http://www.odt.co.nz/news/politics/158087/brash-critics-warn-extreme-right-plans

   Labour leader Phil Goff said the leadership change could have a devastating impact on the lives of middle and low-income New Zealanders.

   …
   “Don Brash wants savage cuts to Government spending, including health and education. Working for Families and interest-free student loans would be gone and there would be a wholesale sell-off of our valuable community-owned state assets.”

   …
   “A relationship involving Don Brash and John Banks, at the head of the ACT Party, will allow National to pursue all the policies it has wanted to pursue but has been afraid to admit to so far.”

   …

   Mrs Turei said Dr Brash needed to come clean about who was backing his campaign, referencing the 2005 scandal in which Dr Brash denied knowing the Exclusive Brethren was running an anti-Labour/Greens campaign when the group had told him its plans.

   “Dr Brash has, after all, just bought a political party as if it were a piece of plastic on a monopoly board. The public deserve to know who the banker for this operation is.”

   …

   New Zealand First leader Winston Peters criticised Dr Brash’s inconsistent race relations policies.

   Although ODT always seems to provide more of the critical debate than the rest of the mainstream news.
   • felix 2.1

     28 April 2011 at 5:39 pm

     Good stuff Phil, keep it up.
     • higherstandard 2.1.1

       28 April 2011 at 5:44 pm

       Good stuff up Phil, keep it !
       • felix 2.1.1.1

         28 April 2011 at 5:49 pm

         keep up, Phil stuff it good.
         • higherstandard 2.1.1.1.1

           28 April 2011 at 9:55 pm

           I reckon we can get a song out of it if we keep going.
           • felix 2.1.1.1.1.1

             28 April 2011 at 11:52 pm

             Stuff Phil, keep it good?
             • Colonial Viper …

               28 April 2011 at 11:56 pm

               Good, Phil, keep stuff up it.
               • felix …

                 29 April 2011 at 4:31 am

                 Keep stuff good. Phil it up!
                 • Bill Browne …

                   29 April 2011 at 10:36 am

                   Stuff it, keep Phil!
3. Peter 3

   28 April 2011 at 5:42 pm

   This situation brings back memories of David Lange falling out with his Right leaning colleagues. Are the financial backers of National trying to force Key more to the Right? If he loses power as a result he will be out of there!
   • Colonial Viper 3.1

     29 April 2011 at 10:45 am

     Key knows he holds a lot of the best cards this round.

     Who are they going to replace him with? English? *guffaw*

     Further, Key is independently wealthy. He is inching towards the $100M mark. There’s frak all they can make him do if he decides he wants to go another way.
   • mickysavage 3.2

     29 April 2011 at 8:56 pm

     Key is not Lange. One was principled, intelligent and wanted to do the best for his country. The other, well …
4. Tanz 4

   28 April 2011 at 5:52 pm

   Yay, Now Don will hold National to account, and Key will have to stop hugging the centre (in a perfect world, anyway).

   Awesome. Don was great on Campbell Live last night, I can’t wait for him in the TV debates later on, hopefully! Go Act..rejuvination! Hopefully for National, too. What an exciting political year, so far.
   • felix 4.1

     28 April 2011 at 5:59 pm

     I wouldn’t get too excited Tanz. As soon as Key stops “hugging the centre” he’s gone. Burger. And ACT gone with him. Fries.
5. Tanz 5

   28 April 2011 at 6:02 pm

   Yes, but at least Don is there for the right reasons, and honest ones.

   Not to fulfull some loopy, boyhood, egotistical dream, but because he is worried about the state of the nationa in many areas, the mismanagement, the overspending, the focus on polls and celebrity. I truly do regret my voting decision of three years ago! Talk about conned. Again.
   • Vinsin 5.1

     28 April 2011 at 6:28 pm

     It would seem you’re very easy to con then Tanz.
     • felix 5.1.1

       28 April 2011 at 6:48 pm

       lol! But honest.
     • Tanz 5.1.2

       28 April 2011 at 9:05 pm

       Well, I expect our politicians and wanna be leaders to be honest…well, I used to, anyway.
   • Draco T Bastard 5.2

     28 April 2011 at 6:29 pm

     but at least Don is there for the right reasons, and honest ones.

     You haven’t read the Hollow Men yet have you? Being honest isn’t part of Brash’s makeup.
     • Tanz 5.2.1

       28 April 2011 at 9:07 pm

       Why would I? Nicky Hagar is a well-known hard leftie, so he comes from a biased position. Its just his opining, not fact. He obviously loathes National, that’s the bottom line.
       • Kaplan 5.2.1.1

         28 April 2011 at 9:16 pm

         It very much is fact. Not one person who was a subject of the book has taken any action to say otherwise. The only action that Brash took was to try and find the source of the facts in the book. Why would he try that if the source did not exist?
         Brash is their for no other reason that he is being paid to be there.
         No Brash No Cash.
       • Draco T Bastard 5.2.1.2

         28 April 2011 at 9:23 pm

         Its just his opining, not fact.

         The biggest complaint that Don Brash and National made at the time that the book was released was that the emails that it was based upon were stolen. For them to have been stolen proves that they were, as a matter of fact, real. Now, I have issues with some of Hager’s conclusions but the emails prove, beyond doubt, that Don Brash and John Key were lying through their fucken teeth during the 2005 election campaign and their dealings with the Exclusive Brethren.

         BTW, does Hager’s previous book which attacked Labour make him a hard righty?
         • Tanz 5.2.1.2.1

           28 April 2011 at 9:59 pm

           What previous book? Hagar is a Leftie, all the same, he is famous for it.
           • Pascal's bookie 5.2.1.2.1.1

             28 April 2011 at 10:05 pm

             Seeds of distrust.

             But so what if he’s a leftie? The emails aren’t written by him, and it’s them that show Brash up as a lying little shit.

             The whole Brash/Key/Joyce circle were pushing the social conservative, iwi/kiwi, marriage stuff to win votes while avoiding talking about what they called their ‘grand plan’ for the economy. I can’t remember what they called the social conservative voters they were winning over, but I remember it wasn’t very nice.
             • Draco T Bastard …

               29 April 2011 at 2:33 am

               I can’t remember what they called the social conservative voters they were winning over, but I remember it wasn’t very nice.

               Brash’s lovely phrase was the punters in punterland. It really shows what these “people” really think of everyone else.
           • rosy 5.2.1.2.1.2

             28 April 2011 at 10:06 pm

             Seeds of Distrust, the story of a GE cover-up It led to huge problems between the greens and labour in the run-up to the election.
             • Tanz …

               28 April 2011 at 10:15 pm

               But Labour seem to love Hagar, or his Hollow Men book, anyway. Hagar is anti-National, and I have actually read some of it…I just got bored with it after awhile. Well written, but I prefer more in-depth fiction.
               • rosy …

                 28 April 2011 at 10:39 pm

                 The book. Hager is a bit too left-wing for Labour methinks! I would suspect they would very much like to know what he’s up to in case he bites them again.

                 “Well written, but I prefer more in-depth fiction.” 🙂
                 Like Wishart over the last few years? (I read and appreciated his “The Paradise Conspiracy, but since then he’s completely off the wall).
       • fraser 5.2.1.3

         29 April 2011 at 8:14 am

         ok dont read the hollow men then to check his honesty – instead, what about the oxford speech don gave where he said that politicians should, nay, have the moral obligation to lie if they think the public isnt on board with their plan?

         Thats don brash, himself, saying “i will lie to you”
   • jaymam 5.3

     28 April 2011 at 7:11 pm

     Brash is ALWAYS “worried about the state of the nation”. That’s a stock phrase that he’s trotted out with a straight face for many years.
   • rosy 5.4

     28 April 2011 at 8:09 pm

     Tanz, just for you
     You know that Bill English won’t be happy about Don, don’t you? I worry about how you will choose between them.
     • Tanz 5.4.1

       28 April 2011 at 9:10 pm

       Cute link. I like your sense of humour.
       • rosy 5.4.1.1

         28 April 2011 at 9:46 pm

         glad you like it 😉
6. Puddleglum 6

   28 April 2011 at 6:22 pm

   Someone needs to ask Don if he would support a National government that, after the election, pursued the same policy direction as it did in its first term. If not, then Key now has to get an absolute majority with a ‘rejuvenated’ ACT nipping at his right.

   If he would support such a government then what was the last week all about and his reason for re-entering politics?

   Alternatively, Key has to shift visibly rightwards to accommodate his likely support partner – then it’s checkmate for Labour/Greens if they play it well. He’s cut off all avenues except an absolute majority.

   Squeeze Brash and he’ll fumble (his interviews over the last two days have had him all a-tangle). Mary Wilsonshowed his deceptiveness very clearly – she was audibly unimpressed (it’s in the second half of the audio). Pressuring Brash will put the pressure on Key. He won’t be able to maintain the image of being Mr Centrist if he is ‘willing to work’ with someone who won’t support more of the same. The narrative will collapse.
   • Colonial Viper 6.1

     28 April 2011 at 6:34 pm

     +1

     They will be desperately trying to media train up Brash now. Problem is that Brash will be untrainable. Brash can be made to become a lead anchor around Key’s neck.

     In fact, it won’t take much effort at all. Brash fucked up before under precious little pressure, he will fuck up again.

     The Right Wing ranks are pathetically thin and weak.
   • felix 6.2

     28 April 2011 at 6:44 pm

     “Squeeze Brash and he’ll fumble (his interviews over the last two days have had him all a-tangle)”

     There be gold in them thar hills I tells ya.

     Also interesting to hear Jane Patterson picking up on the “A vote for National is a vote for Brash” meme so quickly. She won’t be the only one, those gallery journos hunt as a pack.

     Fresh meat for the media beast.
     • Pascal's bookie 6.2.1

       28 April 2011 at 6:59 pm

       “those gallery journos hunt as a pack”

       Best description of it I’ve seen (can’t remember who) was that it’s like watching 5 year olds playing football. One of them gets the ball and they all try and run as close to that person as they can, with some of them shouting ‘go’, and some of them shouting ‘get him’ right up until someone else gets the ball and then they all head off, just as mindlessly, in some other direction.

       The spectators are on the sideline yelling “wrong way, wrong way, darling darling, that way. Never mind. Good kick!”
       • felix 6.2.1.1

         28 April 2011 at 11:57 pm

         Ha! That’s a brilliant description.
7. logie97 7

   28 April 2011 at 6:27 pm

   Hide relinquishes the leadership and within 6 hours TVOne runs a feature on him (usually saved for the deceased) including his perk busting. And uses it to segue neatly on Hone Harawira and his apparent excessive expenses this year. Very neatly done by Dallow – (information provided by whom?) and the character assassinations continue. Wonder if Dallow knows about the excessive use of the Military helicopters revealed in the Herald this morning. Don’t hold your breath for that to be featured on headline Network news.
   • Anne 7.1

     28 April 2011 at 7:01 pm

     Don’t hold your breath for that to be featured on headline Network news.

     You mean National Network News?
     • Anne 7.1.1

       28 April 2011 at 7:27 pm

       Gawd… that was weak. Humble apologies.
       • felix 7.1.1.1

         29 April 2011 at 10:28 am

         I lol’d. But I’m as bad as you.
8. NickC 8

   28 April 2011 at 6:55 pm

   “John Key said he wouldn’t work with racist extremists like Harawira…”

   Pretty sure Key has never ruled out Harawira (happy to be proven wrong)

   “The public are outraged at Labour fiddling their list to allow someone in the 40s on their list to be leapfrogged by someone else a little further down! Their voters didn’t vote for this at the last election!”

   Voters didnt vote for Brash, that is why Brash isnt in parliament. Act is a private organisation and are welcome to be lead by whoever they want. It is only when you start manipulating who holds publically elected office that it becomes a problem.
   • Carol 8.1

     28 April 2011 at 7:06 pm

     Act is a private organisation and are welcome to be lead by whoever they want. It is only when you start manipulating who holds publically elected office that it becomes a problem.

     So it became a problem years ago then?
   • Tanz 8.2

     28 April 2011 at 9:12 pm

     Yes, but then again, voters didn’t vote for many of the list MPs in Parliament, either.
     • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1

       28 April 2011 at 9:30 pm

       Incorrect – they voted for all of the list MPs.
       • Tanz 8.2.1.1

         28 April 2011 at 9:42 pm

         Not. List MPs are there because of their party leader’s hierarchy/favourtism. The general electorate never get a say re the lists.
         • Armchair Critic 8.2.1.1.1

           28 April 2011 at 9:45 pm

           The general electorate never get a say re the lists.
           Apart from election day, when they get to vote for their preferred one, if they wish to do so.
         • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1.1.2

           29 April 2011 at 2:37 am

           Voting for the party is voting for the party list. That means that the people on the list who get into parliament have been voted for.

           It’s really very simple, even a RWNJ should be able to understand it.
           • Tanz 8.2.1.1.2.1

             29 April 2011 at 3:05 am

             Except that to the average voter, the list system is neither open, nor transparent, except for on the day. Yep, that’s true democracy, for the people, by the people. Not.

             Candidates who get ditched as electorate MPs STILL get into parliament, via the lists. Says it all. MMP, a right, royal dog!
             • felix …

               29 April 2011 at 4:35 am

               Tanz.

               Labour’s list is published. All the others will be soon too.

               If you’re so uninterested in who you vote for that you can’t have a look at the lists between now and November, then who gives a fuck what you think about democracy?

               You can’t have this both ways, Tanz. You’re either interested enough to complain (in which case you can find a moment to have a look at who is on the lists) or you’re not (in which case you don’t really care who you’re voting for anyway).

               ps have you hooked up with my mate Brett Dale yet?
               • Tanz …

                 29 April 2011 at 9:30 am

                 The process is undemocratic, Felix, the process. The general electorate is locked out.

                 Who the heck is Brett Dale?
                 • felix …

                   29 April 2011 at 10:26 am

                   Oh you mean the process within the various parties?

                   If so, that’s nothing to do with MMP, it’s to do with an individual party’s constitution. For example, the Green Party has a democratically selected list. The Labour Party less so, and the National Party not at all.

                   Your solution is to join a party and try to change the way they operate, or here’s an idea: don’t vote for a party who’s processes you don’t approve of.

                   But I don’t think this is what you’re really saying at all. It sounds like you think that people who aren’t members of a party should have control over how that party chooses it’s list.

                   This shouldn’t surprise me as you’ve indicated you support Don Brash as leader of ACT while he’s actually a member of the National Party.

                   Do you think you should have voting rights at shareholder’s meetings without buying shares in a company too?

                   Why?

                   Brett Dale is a very dear old friend of mine and I’ve been trying to get you two together for ages but you’re never around when he is, dammit! I just know you two would hit it off.
             • KJT …

               29 April 2011 at 9:40 am

               And under FPP Muldoon got in by gerrymandering the electorates when the vote was 60% against.
         • KJT 8.2.1.1.3

           29 April 2011 at 9:42 am

           You can always join Labour or the Greens and have a say in the lists.

           NACT will never allow even that semblance of democracy though. You have to be a large corporate donor to influence their list.
9. logie97 9

   28 April 2011 at 10:20 pm

   Often read comments that the Left’s parliamentarians are from academia and therefore not fit for government – apparently don’t possess the right (correct) life skills.

   Someone care to advise just how many businesses Brash and Key and English and Ryall and Smith and Bennett and Brownlee and Groser and Finlayson and McCully and Mapp and Coleman and Wilkinson and Power and Professor Delorus Umbridge Tolley and … have owned and run.
10. Jenny 10

    29 April 2011 at 6:01 am

    The night of the return of the Living Dead.

    To turn New Zealand into a Living Hell.
    • Tanz 10.1

      29 April 2011 at 9:31 am

      Isn’t it that already, pretty much?
11. Rodel 11

    29 April 2011 at 3:41 pm

    Rodney with Mary Wilson (radio excerpt above in item 6)

    “………… I’m very proud of the fact… y’know that not only did we invite Don into the
    party, but I got him installed as leader…” .

    ‘I GOT HIM INSTALLED AS LEADER !’

    Now that’s being positive.. or is there another word for it?
12. Rob 12

    30 April 2011 at 9:30 pm

    So true. A lot of their plans will be ruined now that they have to defend a 70 year old racist extreme ideologue former National leader having control of their coalition partner.

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