Nats “discovered poverty last week” – and will forget it just as quickly

Written By: - Date published: 7:02 am, September 21st, 2017 - 72 comments
Categories: accountability, bill english, class war, jacinda ardern, national, poverty - Tags: , , , ,

It was the line of the debate:

Bill English ‘discovered poverty last week’ – Jacinda Ardern

Labour leader Jacinda Ardern has heavily criticised National’s Bill English’s response to poverty, accusing him of only recently putting it on his agenda.

In the final TVNZ Leaders Debate, Ms Ardern claimed National had been failing to acknowledge and fix issues including child poverty and the housing crisis.

“I think people looking forward to the future already know what National is going to deliver to them, they’ve had nine years to test what that looks like,” she said. … “You discovered poverty last week, that’s what happened,” …
…
“Then why are there kids living in cars? Why are there kids going to school without food in their tummies?” she asked. …

National has ignored and denied the issue of poverty in NZ for the last 9 years. They have refused to implement an official poverty measure so that they cannot be held accountable for their failure. But look around at the increasing homelessness, the rising child disease and malnutrition, the crises in food banks, the crises in mental health and the record suicide rates. There it is.

National has been forced to acknowledge poverty during the election campaign. But it they get to form the next government the record of the last nine years suggests that they will forget it again just as quickly.

Do you want to vote for that?

72 comments on “Nats “discovered poverty last week” – and will forget it just as quickly ”

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  1. Patricia 1
    21 September 2017 at 7:19 am

    Well done Jacinda – an excellent observation about National “discovering poverty last week”. And they will completelyl forget about it on Sunday morning.
    A nasty debate last night ; the moderator did not keep good control. English came over as a bully constantly talking over Jacinda and keeping on with the fiscal hole which nobody else can see.

    • WILD KATIPO 1.1
      21 September 2017 at 7:26 am

      A fiscal hole that doesnt exist ,… why has Joyce and English been allowed to get away with that ? ,… why have English and Joyce been given the green light by so many in the media to campaign negatively ? Why is there still this stiff necked bloc that refuses to admit they are voting for politicians who are unscrupulous and willing to lie to maintain a grip on power?

      What ?, … do they endorse liars?

      • tracey 1.1.1
        21 September 2017 at 7:31 am

        I see the Herald gleefully declared Bill the winner… and Du Plessis Allen confused angry on behalf of struggling and vulnerable NZers for flustered. I saw a leader frustrated by the lies and the lack of consequence of those lies trying to remain states”man”like in the face of English’s relentless deceit.

        • WILD KATIPO 1.1.1.1
          21 September 2017 at 7:42 am

          I am afraid , Adern has been far too lenient on English. Unfortunate to have to say it , but I believe its true . Personally , I would have let the bastard have it , –
          both barrels in full view of the public. But then ,… that is not Aderns way. She is more gracious than that.

          I’ve just got this view you don’t mess around with rabid dogs. You deal to them. Terminally.

          • tracey 1.1.1.1.1
            21 September 2017 at 7:52 am

            If she did we stay in the same cycle of BS. I think she deal to him. And it has made one headline.

            • WILD KATIPO 1.1.1.1.1.1
              21 September 2017 at 8:05 am

              No doubt about it this country would prosper under Adern.

              She and her govt would bring long overdue healing to NZ.

              And yes she did do well . But we are fighting an enemy who has no intention of fighting under ‘ Queensbury Rules’ . They are underhanded, deceitful , twisting the truth and the facts ,- and have no qualms whatsoever to resorting to bald faced lying to the public to advance their cause.

              And dogs like that need to called out for what they are and exposed in no uncertain terms. Its just unfortunate we live under such conditions , – or rather , – that so many Kiwis have voted willfully to let it drift towards such a low bar in our publicly elected officials.

              The good thing is this may all change by Saturday night. And that will be a time for rejoicing if it happens.

              • Zeroque …
                21 September 2017 at 8:58 am

                I’ll say! The amount of BS I heard from Bill last night was more than most days I hear him talk. Jesus I hope he gets the take-down he deserves on Saturday.

        • Zeroque 1.1.1.2
          21 September 2017 at 9:53 am

          I agree Tracey, she wasn’t flustered at all, just frustrated and possibly somewhat angered by the constant BS coming at her from Bill.

      • Johan 1.1.2
        21 September 2017 at 7:40 am

        MSM in New Zealand appears to be in the pocket of the Tories. Even today Hosking on his morning radio show was putting in the boot against Ardern once again.
        Balance and impartiality is not something that poor Mike is familiar with, so why make such an biased, person a moderator?

      • Unicus 1.1.3
        21 September 2017 at 12:12 pm

        Well yes I think there is a large constituency of NZ ers who like the idea of being lied to as long as they feel comforted – they became so immune to the truth during Keys tenure that asking them to respond to real issues its a bit like asking a junkie to give up the stuff .

        The Tories have hit the fear button and their windy little tribe have tottered in behind .

        Its not in the overall spirit of what has been a brilliant Labour campaign but last night I was on th edge of my seat willing Jacinda to say to Bullshit Bills face LIAR

        • tracey 1.1.3.1
          21 September 2017 at 3:06 pm

          It as worked bautifully. Lie to keep them co.fortable and if they start to see scare the crap out of them… You do need money and motivation to achieve it Ads, third party lobby groups from which to pretend to be arms length. The last 7 days have seen “taxpayers union” and Fed Farmers fullfilingbthis on cue.

        • SpaceMonkey 1.1.3.2
          21 September 2017 at 3:19 pm

          Ah! The gilded cage! As someone once said to me: “Money might not be able to buy happiness, but it can buy a pretty comfortable misery”.

          This, I am afraid, is what many NZers may be settling for. Hobbit-like behaviour.
          As long as they are feeling comfortable… everything is fine.

    • Heather Grimwood 1.2
      21 September 2017 at 8:30 am

      agree wholeheartedly Patricia at 1. English did bully and indeed his body language portrayed anger at times, quite frightening.

      • NZJester 1.2.1
        21 September 2017 at 10:00 pm

        Bullying and talking over people is a common trait of the right wing in debates. They filibuster to get their message (lies) out and stop the left getting their message out and using the filibuster to say that they have no real policy. You try to do that to them and they say you are rude and failed to let them get their message out and use it to attack the person for the next few days with the help of their MSM lapdogs. They manage to filibuster and these MSM lapdogs claim they won the debate and that the other person was week. They have both sides of the coin covered.

    • Anne 1.3
      21 September 2017 at 9:38 am

      Patricia @ 1.
      To me, the almost unprecedented level of lies and misinformation about Labour’s tax policy in particular is tantamount to defamation. That being the case why don’t Labour announce they will be suing Steven Joyce (first defendent) and Bill English (second defendent) for wittingly committing falsehoods designed to destroy a major political party. I’m sure they can think of better wording than me – I’m no lawyer.

      A case in point was English’s allegation last night that Labour will increase taxes on the 1st April next year. He bases it on National’s tax cuts (for the well off) kicking in on the 1st April so that means under Labour they are going to increase. Quelle horreur!

  2. tracey 2
    21 September 2017 at 7:29 am

    Such a good job has been done since 1987 dehumanising beneficiaries and the working poor that over 40% of our voting citizens have been given permission to not give a shit. For an extra 15 bucks a week they will sell our vulnerable down the river. The people born disabled who will know no more than subsistence as their punishment for not being “whole”.

    Even though that $15 bucks a week is probably not a real tax rise, using their logic, cos the unmandated 2.5% GST has cost way more than that… and the petrol tax rises…

  3. red-blooded 3
    21 September 2017 at 7:29 am

    He’s feeling pretty damn confident and satisfied with his lies and campaign of fear. Fake news is doing the job. People who haven’t yet voted need to remember that the largest party gets first right to put together a government and NZF has no made no commitment and alwayttalks about going with the biggest party.

    If you want these arseholes out, you need to party vote Labour. The Greens are not in trouble and the only way the left gets to form a government is if Labour does well.

    • tracey 3.1
      21 September 2017 at 7:34 am

      English if he wins will suddenly be able to measure poverty, but only after the April money scramble. His measure will show it has dropped based on campaigning figures.

      CB suggests a slight bleed to the Greens RB, given Labour and National will not govern alone I am pleased to see Greens entering safe territory ( if polls, cursed polls), are to be believed.

      Have you seen Peters latest bottom line?

    • Carolyn_nth 3.2
      21 September 2017 at 7:41 am

      The biggest party does not have the first right to form a government.

      NZF may decide they will first have a go at negotiating with the party with the most votes. but that’s not the same thing.

      The party that can first go to the GG to claim they can lead a government, is the one with first right to form a govt. It doesn’t need to be the party with the most votes. It can be the coalition/alliance of 2 or more parties with the most votes between them.

      • SpaceMonkey 3.2.1
        21 September 2017 at 3:21 pm

        That’s good to know. I always thought it was the party with the most votes that gets first attempt to form a Government.

    • Union city greens 3.3
      21 September 2017 at 7:44 am

      “If you want these arseholes out, you need to party vote Labour. The Greens are not in trouble and the only way the left gets to form a government is if Labour does well.”

      That’s the same bullshit you squitted out last night. You should be ashamed of yourself for posting such misinformation.

      A vote for the greens is a vote for the green/labour block. It doesn’t matter what percentage each party gets as long as the end result is more than the nats and it’s support partners.
      L30% + G20% is just as good (actually much better, but beside the point) as L42 + G8.

      • red-blooded 3.3.1
        21 September 2017 at 8:01 am

        Save your attacks for the people we both oppose, mate. I’m entitled to see things differently from you and to express that viewpoint. If the Nats get to form the next government it won’t matter if the Greens are on 6 or 8. They’ll be back, but if they want to be in government they need Labour to pull back into contention. That’s just the truth of the matter. You may not like it – tough. I don’t like it when people attach me for having a commitment to actually changing things.

        • Union city greens 3.3.1.1
          21 September 2017 at 8:30 am

          Seeing things differently is one thing, deliberately lying is another.
          However you try to rationalise it, you’ve given out misinformation for party cause. That makes you no worse than the nats.

          To be clear, challenging this partisan bs with fact, a vote for the greens is a vote to change the government. A vote for labour, the same.
          Enough of us do it, we win, no matter what the percentage split.

          • red-blooded 3.3.1.1.1
            21 September 2017 at 9:16 am

            So, you truly believe that if Labour gets 37% and the Nats 46%, it will get to form the next government with the Greens? You’re delusional. On 46% the Nats would romp back to power, with their pet poodle from Epsom and whoever makes it in for the Maori Party. If NZF are back, they’ve said they’ll talk first to the biggest party (and while they’ve dialled it back a bit recently, we all know they don’t like the Greens). If they’re not, the wasted votes get divvied up and the Nats would be able to govern without them.

            I really really really hope we don’t end up with either of those scenarios and I’m doing my best to make sure that we don’t. If you are determined not to vote for Labour, then vote Green. I’ve always said my preferred option is a Labour-Green government. The problem is (as mentioned above), that doesn’t get to happen if Labour don’t get a big enough slice of the pie. That’s not a lie – it’s an inconvenient truth.

            • Union city greens 3.3.1.1.1.1
              21 September 2017 at 12:07 pm

              Clearly you don’t know how mmp works.

              Most of your post above makes no sense to the argument about voting labour over green. The only relevant bit is about you wanting a labour green government. The only way to do that is voting labour or green. If they have the numbers it will happen. If not, it won’t. Whatever proportion of the total each gets is immaterial to the end result.

              If labour don’t get enough to entice Winston, then so be it, that’s the will of the people. If enough people vote labour and green it doesn’t matter about that blowhard.

              • red-blooded …
                21 September 2017 at 1:02 pm

                That’s right – don’t bother thinking about or responding to the detail of the discussion, just throw enough insults about and that’ll do the job!

                • Union city greens …
                  21 September 2017 at 1:07 pm

                  What insults? You’ve falsely made claims that green voters have to vote labour to change the government, when under mmp that’s simply not the case. I’ve just called you on it and showed how the proportion of the two parties doesn’t change the overall left vote. This is undeniable fact. You lied and got caught doing it.

                  That’s an insult to our collective intelligence.

      • cleangreen 3.3.2
        21 September 2017 at 8:39 am

        I heartily agree with ‘Union city greens’ that we need to vote for the labour Party now as they are looking as they are in trouble now.

        The wide united call to vote for the Greens by all labour & green supporters, sadly took many away from labour and are now damaging our whole capability to form a ‘change of government; and we dont want to be labelled as “the Party that eats its partners” as welll as we will surely now loose this election.

        We need to share the call for support to back labour now.

        Sadly over on The Daily Blog Greens (Keith Locke) is still callling for more voters in a blog labeled as “Let’s make sure the Greens get well over the threshold” to boldly switch to the Green Party to increase their figures even more.

        It was sad to see as if they are keen to hurt their Labour MOU like a poisoned chalice, and we don’t need a left wing fight between now as election day nears 48hrs time.

        https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/09/21/lets-make-sure-the-greens-get-well-over-the-threshold/

        • Union city greens 3.3.2.1
          21 September 2017 at 8:44 am

          Firstly I never said you should vote labour. That’s as big a lie as red blooded’s. Second, do you understand how mmp works? Without nz1st in the equation, any split of 50% by labour and the greens wins, as long as both get over 5%. What’s so hard about that to understand?

          Reality is I don’t care who you vote for, but voting red instead of green because labour are slipping back makes no sense. Just saying.

          • cleangreen 3.3.2.1.1
            21 September 2017 at 12:22 pm

            We will return the apology to you YCG, You have not said vote for Labour.
            I guess you are wanting us all to vote green?

            I willl vote labour and NZ First as Greens only won’t get the National Government thrown out.

            I was a Green Party member when the Greens joined NZ First and Labour in 1999 to form the Government and it was a great era, and want to see another long 9yr Labour lead Government, so I hope we see this on Saturday again.

            • Union city greens 3.3.2.1.1.1
              21 September 2017 at 12:26 pm

              I’ve already written above I don’t care who you vote for, but if you ‘all’ did vote green, then I wouldn’t be unhappy.

              If you’re voting to change the government your choices are greens and labour. Anything else, to that end, is a wasted vote.

              • cleangreen …
                21 September 2017 at 12:38 pm

                UCG,

                You have your views, and we have ours that is democracy.

                • Union city greens …
                  21 September 2017 at 12:57 pm

                  Having different views is great. Posting untruths about the make up of the left block party vote in mmp elections isn’t.

                  Still doesn’t change the fact that if you want to guarantee a left leaning government, to address and eradicate poverty, you have to vote greens or labour.
                  Sure you’re on the right site?
                  We know for fact that a vote for labour and the greens is a vote to oust the nats. Fact. Feel free to quote Winston saying he’ll go with labour.

                  Party vote green.

        • tracey 3.3.2.2
          21 September 2017 at 10:17 am

          What makes you think the MOU says

          Greens step aside in seats for Labour
          All Green Voters must vote Labour

          As a NZF supporter I suspect your knowledhe of the MOU is scant. Humour me and tell me what Labour conceded to Greens?

    • tracey 3.4
      21 September 2017 at 7:49 am

      RB, this is a genuine question not an attack, are you happy to have NZFs bottom lines in your next government?

      • red-blooded 3.4.1
        21 September 2017 at 8:06 am

        If it’s a choice between Nat plus whoever or Lab plus NZF, I’ll go with the latter. However, if you actually look at what I’m saying, it’s more nuanced than that the Greens are safe, but they will have no role to play if Labour doesn’t get to form the next government. You may be too tribal to hear and respond to that message, but hopefully others aren’t. (And BTW I’ve voted Green in the past when I’ve thought they needed it and when I’ve known Labour would be leading and wanted the Greens stronger than NZF. That’s not the situation this time.)

        • tracey 3.4.1.1
          21 September 2017 at 8:09 am

          I am not too tribal to understand what you are saying any more than I think you are too tribal to understand the Laboyr +Greens equation.

          My question was are you happty with NZFs bottom lines? I am assuming from how you framed your answer that even National type policy is fine as long as Labour is at the table?

          • red-blooded 3.4.1.1.1
            21 September 2017 at 9:24 am

            We all know that a “bottom line” from Winston in campaign mode is no such thing. Look at the man’s history.

            No, I’m not keen on his “bottom lines”, but even a Labour-NZF government that involved some compromises from Labour (and they’ve already made it clear that there are things he’s asking for that won’t be negotiated) would be better than a Nat-led government. There’s enough clear difference between the two parties to make that clear. What you can assume from my answer is that I was running late for work and tapping away at my phone, so keeping it short. That’s it. No more assumptions, thank you.

            What you (and various others on this thread) still haven’t acknowledged is that the Greens don’t get to play a role if they’re not in coalition with Labour. That’s looking doubtful, at this stage. That make some tactical thinking necessary. End of message.

            • tracey 3.4.1.1.1.1
              21 September 2017 at 10:19 am

              So NZF leader cannot be believed is your position. Fair enough.

              I tried to have a discussion but you are so defensive it hasnt proved fruitful. I have already voted. Labour for electorate and Greens for party. So, have at it.

  4. Incognito 4
    21 September 2017 at 7:32 am

    What’s much worse is that most of the country will slump back into its collective amnesia and BAU unless we have a change of government with a real commitment to a strong progressive agenda.

    • tracey 4.1
      21 September 2017 at 7:36 am

      Hopefully the debate has some impact give “look at me Look at me” Hosking even agreed the 11b hole is a lie?

  5. tracey 5
    21 September 2017 at 7:47 am

    7000 nat supporters will get their 1000 a year tax cut… from here

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11924050

    And from the money saved by not telling teachers they could get 3500 if they went to a low decile school, and from Dunedin Hospitals cuts in services, and Waikato’s and Canterbury’s… and from Lifeline.

    What a sorry, nasty little nation we have become. When you use it to go to Fiji next winter, maybe spare a thought for the person in a wheelchair who cannot visit family in another town because that is considered a luxury.

    • Lara 5.1
      21 September 2017 at 9:35 am

      I’ll donate it to Women’s Refuge thank you very much. We’re not all assholes.

      But yeah, many of us are. A nasty small mean minded lot I see around me. Thanks internet. I can now see what my neighbours really think. And its not pretty.

      We will get the government we deserve on Saturday, of that I am 100% confident.

  6. Carolyn_nth 6
    21 September 2017 at 8:14 am

    From newsroom last night:

    Sources told Newsroom that National’s latest internal polling has it at 43 percent and Labour at 39 percent. NZ First and the Greens were both on six percent. But there were suggestions from those close to National that its figures had softened overnight.

  7. Janet 7
    21 September 2017 at 8:25 am

    National has done nothing but increase tax. Eg, GST, and fees to Govt departments that were free before they became govt.
    And the money they have given away – Rio Tinto Zinc, Warner Bros, Saudi businessmen, the list is long
    Hell bent on ‘balancing’ their check book, they have shown over and over they are penny wise pound foolish. Stopping payments to the Cullen Fund and their other decisions against the advice of Teasury, buying votes with tax cuts for the rich, and the flagrant and disgusting punishment of the poor…
    I suspect they might want to lose, given they have again left the country in a mess.

    • Brigid 7.1
      21 September 2017 at 9:10 am

      Thats the best summation of the government I’ve read on here. I have also wondered if they want to loose given their appalling electioneering, something similar to what you’d see in the school play ground. They’re truly embarrassing.

    • tracey 7.2
      21 September 2017 at 10:20 am

      Cutting Lifeline funding

  8. Bearded Git 8
    21 September 2017 at 8:35 am

    Sandra Lee just said on RNZ that Jacinda had her best debate last night and Bill woffled on key issues. Definite tick for new PM Jacinda. Worth a listen.

  9. Bob 9
    21 September 2017 at 9:15 am

    It doesnt matter if you vote party vote Labour or Green, just vote! Either way, the Nats have to go………….unless the global Financial crisis Keith Rankin Talks about is coming.
    Anyone read the Daily blog lately. ? On why Jacinda should loose this election ? & wait until 2020, I’m not sure if I can wait that long, with nepotism on the rise.

    • WILD KATIPO 9.1
      21 September 2017 at 9:31 am

      I read that and spat it out ,- I’d rather a Labour / Green govt in that circumstance . There’s only one way and that way is getting rid of National.

      There is no other way.

    • cleangreen 9.2
      21 September 2017 at 12:57 pm

      100% Bob.

      NZ can’t afford to wait, it was a dumb arguement Keith Rankin put up as natiional will just sell the whole country before that time, with or without another GFC Rankin says is comming.

  10. Delia 10
    21 September 2017 at 9:46 am

    Old Bill looks down at the ground a lot these days, had to face the public, after all those back slapping, back room meetings, where he and his mates hawed hawed over ripping NZ workers.

  11. Chats Williams 11
    21 September 2017 at 11:15 am

    This Comment by Ms Ardern only proves she has dreamt and/or slept through most Questiontimes in the House during the past eighteen months rather than listening to Ministerial answers to her and her colleagues questions!

    • Jon Jones 11.1
      21 September 2017 at 11:40 am

      Well Jacinda wants to frame the debates and the questions that suit her and Bill wants to do the same, whoever is most successful will likely form the next government

      • cleangreen 11.1.1
        21 September 2017 at 12:49 pm

        Jon, Who runs the natative and the press wins. We all know who runs the media so the narative is the only option left to ‘frame’ and penetrate it in the media, good luck with that.

    • indiana 11.2
      21 September 2017 at 11:47 am

      Equally if she was so passionate about reducing poverty, what members bills did she champion whilst in opposition?

  12. WILD KATIPO 12
    21 September 2017 at 11:46 am

    Time to put the bung back into Stephen Joyces cakehole .

    • cleangreen 12.1
      21 September 2017 at 12:45 pm

      Joyce is the master planner behind all, and BilliE is just a pupet of his paymaster it is that simple.
      National = hollowmp’s.

  13. useyourhead 13
    21 September 2017 at 12:44 pm

    I know this is off topic but where is this 2 tb of national emails that kim dotcom promised would sink national before the election??? Anytime now kim?? A little sense of urgency has arisen on the matter given the last polls..

    • cleangreen 13.1
      21 September 2017 at 12:53 pm

      useyourhead,
      Good question that is?
      ‘where is this 2 tb of national emails that kim dotcom promised would sink national before the election’???

    • Jon Jones 13.2
      21 September 2017 at 12:55 pm

      You didn’t seriously believe that did you

      • tracey 13.2.1
        21 September 2017 at 1:15 pm

        People are appatently still believing English is decent and trustworthy with billions, despite being a proven liar so it is a strange world indeed.

        • Jon Jones 13.2.1.1
          21 September 2017 at 2:51 pm

          Depends on the lie I guess, the general consensus seems to be that the economy, and NZ, is doing all right especially compared with the rest of the OECD and so the government will be cut some slack and rewarded at the election

          Much like Labour was rewarded with three election wins

          • tracey 13.2.1.1.1
            21 September 2017 at 3:10 pm

            I know it depends on the lie.

            Brown plus poor = bad lie
            White plus rich = good lie

            Ridiculous

      • useyourhead 13.2.2
        21 September 2017 at 2:28 pm

        jon jones
        I take everything with a grain of salt but neither would surprise me. I personally belive natioanal is extremely unethical and definately have been doing underhanded things behind closed doors that would make the nation cringe. i also think it is very plausabile that if there was 2 tb of stolen emails out there kim dotcom would probably be in the right circles to have knowledge of this but i also see your point in that there is also likely personal grievences from kim dotcom that could have him making fraudulent claims.. I guess im trying to put out a batsignal in the sky asking Kim Dotcom to back up his bullshit.

        I also have no faith in the polls, my prediction is that the necessity of ease for voting this year is going to put the left into a landslide postion of power after the election. I believe this because the working class is often to time poor and fatigued to make it to the voting stations where as the right are organised and are often voting early. I think the overwhelming amount of early votes cast this year are in favor of the left as the right has already exploited this in the past so the difference this year will be in the working class favor.

        I also believe really at the core of it all the whole election system is a farce.. It is an age old system of divide and conquer, No party reaches out to me in any shape or form. Their thoughts and ideals are either outdated, impractical or simply rubbish. I believe the only true democracy is binding referendums and for people given the privaledge of representing us to be held accountable if they intentionally fuck us over. I hold no political allegence to be honest but as far as im concerned national has fucked the country i love dearly to the point i am ashamed to call myself a kiwi and admit that i sat on my hands while my kindered souls have been forced to suffer.

        I also read right blogs and find it very amusing that there is a common theme among them where they believe the left and uneducated to do not have the intellect to vote. They do this to elevate themselves into a position of superiority. Are feelings not also entitled to have a say. I am no fool but sometimes policies or more reasoning for policy goes over my head too. I think that if uneducated people simply feel that the direction of the country is not right or they feel that a party can lead their life in a better direction then that is just cause to have confidence in them.

        Sometimes intellect isnt everything. I would rather be in the company of happy smiling people , than have reason for polacies explained to me . my two cents