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Open Mike 21/09/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 21st, 2017 - 211 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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Step up to the mike …

211 comments on “Open Mike 21/09/2017 ”

  1. Ed 1

    You can get away with lying in an election if the media is owned by foreign owned corporations who benefit from the rape and pillage of New Zealand.

    There is a rich, selfish and entitled ‘elite’ who are facilitating this. These Quislings would rather have their flash cars and flash holidays rather than concern themselves with the health, employment and education of the more vulnerable citizens of the country.

    I am hoping that the young of New Zealand are not listening to the fearmongering by big business and their puppets, the media and the National Party.

    A cargo cult.
    And older New Zealanders appear beholden to it.

    Get everyone out to vote!

  2. reason 2

    Its a tight election,….. with a lame duck NAct party using their $8 Million dollars in mostly pseudo anonymous donations…… to run a expensive campaign based on lies and fear…..

    Labour squandered a golden opportunity to network and share in Britians Corbyn driven Labour revival preceding our election ………. ‘For the many not the Few’ … Is a world-wide desire.

    And perhaps due to their reliance on their own Corporate donations, ……to try to compete against the Nacts $8 Million Advertising slush fund …… They never front footed the multi-billions missing from our Governments tax revenue every year … and which ordinary people are penalized for .

    So Nationals weakness on helping hard working creative tax cheats …was never used back at them. ……

    If the Nacts get back in we can be secure in all our present problems continuing to worsen …

    Our Inequality will widen ….

    Our Freshwater will be exploited, degraded and poisoned even more …..

    Our Corporations and super rich will continue to enjoy tax segregation and a form of economic Apartheid ….. Giving us a multi-billion hole in our Governments books …. and the excuse for Austerity, privatisations , PPP rip offs etc .

    Off shore companies based in tax havens will continue their buy up and asset stripping of New Zealand …. Ie Oravida

    More New Zealand families will face housing stress …
    Corruption will grow …… Along with all the other harms along the way …… in the Nacts race to the bottom.

    Some Perpetrators will be sweating on NActional to win… To ensure there will be no enquiery or accountability over Pike River ……

    Nothing will happen regarding The Panama papers and New Zealands quiet little South Pacific money laundering circuit

    The cover-up of lies and possible criminality;;;in killing Afghanistan children and civilians will continue ….

    Our murderous suicide rate will climb …….and victims of Government policy will be blamed in the most cynical and dirty of politics …….

    All is not lost though …I’m picking Labour to soften to around 37%, ….. with 10% for the greens in a reward for the NZ party most representing Corbyn like political change and values.

    Nats around 40% ……. If they are lucky.

    TOP partys disappointing result should give Gareth Morgan pause for thought on how he might better influence NZ politics and our use of mmp…… This election sidelined his campaign and impact.

    Better us of resources could be an alternative media presenting real facts, research and information…. ….

    Or maybe a litigation fund …….. To sue ministers who breach their duties …. like housing ministers making NZ housing problems worse …. Same for health ministers who engage in running down or privatising public health …… Revenue ministers undermining revenue with loopholes …

    Funding private prosecutions and challenges against corrupt purchases of our forestry and farms …..

    These things would alter our Political landscape and conduct for the better ….

    We need better democracy ….

    • Ed 2.1

      Vote Green

      • reason 2.1.1

        Two ticks from me … It feels clean to vote green:)

        Rather than a dirty pact …. to vote for a NAct

        • popexplosion

          Voting like that means candidate get back on the list, it creates lazy politicians, senatorails. Now imagine all party votes going Green and all seats going Labour, Maori, we’d have 200? MPs. More representatives less ability for big money to pressure them. It’s win, win, win, two not one mp, and more voices, and keener to listen to us. Party vote Green seat labour

    • reason 2.2

      Typo above ……Better use of his resources could be an alternative media presenting real facts, research and information…. ….

  3. patricia bremner 3

    Keep the faith. Keep talking to those who are yet to vote. Say how vital every left vote is towards changing the government.

    Liking people and policies isn’t enough. Commitment to voting is the main thing.

    Pushing through negative vibes and fear to make a choice.

    We need to vote for a “Better New Zealand”

    Let’s do this!!!!

  4. tracey 4

    The Colmar Brunton shows some of Labour’s support shifted to Green, which as you know doesnt bother me.
    That leaves about 4% swing. Given National has been relentless in its misinformation and lies this last week it is credit that some more soft voters didnt waiver. It is still of concern to me how many people who are doing ok financially are ready to swallow this shit for 15 bucks a week. I wonder if the 6 fuel tax increases have already substantially negated that?

    New line from Labour? You are not getting a tax cut, they are giving you back some of your petrol money and GST

    • ScottGN 4.1

      Disappointing though the poll was last night tracey, in some respects nothing has really changed from the start of the campaign.
      It’s still tight and the 2 blocs are still pretty much even.
      The Herald seat projector has National on 56 + ACT 1 and Lab 49 + Greens 9. So 57 versus 58.
      Both short of a majority and Winston gets to decide. If NZFirst don’t make the threshold however…

  5. Hanswurst 5

    I must say that I have a problem with the BSA’s ruling on National’s attack advertisement regarding Labour’s tax policy, as does someone at RNZ, if understatedly scathing the headline is anything to go by. My problem is not so much the conclusion itself, which seems to follow quite reasonably from the premise that an ad from the National Party is in and of itself a piece of party political opinion.

    What I do have a problem with, however, is the idea that broadcasting such vaguely justified opinion for the purposes of electioneering is even remotely acceptable. I think it is reasonable to expect parties to back up their opinions factually when promoting them to the electorate. Obviously there will always be grey areas and plenty of room to stretch semantics and data interpretation. I say that that is all the more reason to tighten the regulations as far as possible wherever that can be done. One thing that I think might help is a stipulation that any statement expressed as a statement of fact by a party or candidate be treated as such by the BSA. Imagine how much weaker the ad would have seemed had it been couched in phrases like, “The National Party asserts that…”.

    It wouldn’t catch everything. Labour’s thing on “Chinese-sounding names” a couple of years ago would probably have been fine, for instance, as would Peters’ recent claims that market gardeners told him about the prospect of $18 cabbages. Joyce might even have been OK to put out his criticisms of Labour’s costings as he did this election campaign, but I think he would very likely have elected to be more careful. Imagine how different the discourse might have been if Stephen Joyce had felt compelled to lay out his arguments about how much Labour’s operating allowances were and debate them purely on those terms, rather than throwing out an 11.6-billion-dollar zinger that has retained currency even up to the present, irrespective of its being entirely discredited.

    In many cases, I imagine that such a stipulation would simply lead to politicians’ equivocating even more, and citing dubious sources (like “three market gardeners”), but I nonetheless think that equivocating is better than lying, and citing dubious sources at least makes it easier to do a quick fact-check.

    • Tautoko Mangō Mata 5.1

      Bill English and National have lost their moral compass. A win at all costs trumps any pretence of honesty for National. Time for them to go!

      • patricia bremner 5.1.1

        5.1 Yes. What has Bill promised the blue dragons I wonder?

        Why are they slipping in the sale of government lands with no discussion?

        Who stands to benefit from these “roads of National importance?” (Or is it in the name?”

        If Bill is such an upstanding citizen, why no condolences to Jacinda?

        Why all the lies about tax and fiscal holes? What are they distracting us from?

        Why do they want us to believe it is “all over rover”

        Because “the race is very tight!!’ The one true thing Bill said.

        So folk on the Left…. donate, enroll and vote. Green/Red Red/Green NZ First/Mana or Maori. We use our strengths and cooperate.

        The real poll is on Saturday, and they are scared so they are mean.

    • tc 5.2

      The BSA is another crony stacked org propping up the facade of objectivity so the sheeple think they can held accountable.

      Toothless wet bus ticket distributors like the comm comm etc

  6. Sanctuary 6

    By way of diversion from the election, I just want to make a few comments about the stuff NRT has been posting about Catalonia, as I reckon he is completely off-beam with his comments. The whole Catalan situation is a dangerous farce, brought about by inept central government, irresponsible local government and economic downturn.

    The first thing to note is that until the adoption of the December 1978 constitution from 1938-75 Spain was a deeply socially conservative, fascist dictatorship where the army were the standard bearers of “Spanishness” and the highly reactionary values of Francoism. Those values lie dormant, but have not necessarily vanished from Spanish society, let alone the military. Second, the semi-federal, highly autonomous nature of Spain’s internal organisation created by the 1978 constitution is in a large part a reaction to the enforced and suffocating narrowness of the Francoist cultural and social agenda. These concessions to autonomy were negotiated within the context of a highly politicised and dangerous military and one of the key aspects of the 1978 constitution is the first part of section two –

    “…The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all…”

    In other words, to gain their semi-autonomy without losing everything in another military coup, the Spanish regions (including the Basque Country and even regions like Asturias as well as Catalonia) agreed to the INDISSOLUBLE UNITY OF THE SPANISH NATION. This promise is what the Catalan government is now trying to renege on. It is the basis to the claim the independence referendum is illegal and unconstitutional, something the irresponsible Catalan leadership refuse to recognise.

    The next question is how much of a claim to independence does Catalonia actually have? Catalonia has always been a possession of the crown of Aragon, with the uniting of Aragon and Castille (Ferdinand and Isabella) Catalonia became part of Spain, with significant local autonomy. Catalonia has NEVER been an independent state and has less claim to independence than, say, the Northern League in Italy who also wish to see the richer north of the country break away to form a separatist “I’m all right jack” country. At least in Italy the state of Piedmont was a sovereign state prior to unification. In short, Catalonia has no more claim to the right of independence than the Auckland Super City has.

    Finally, much of nationalist rhetoric being currently whipped up is a deflection by an autonomous government that has been caught in deeply corrupt practices. Rather than face the anti-corruption music from Madrid, the Catalan leadership has sought to claim Spain has no jurisdiction over them, thus neatly avoiding answering the questions about gross corruption and nepotism and hiding behind a thicket of nationalistic sentiment. Using independence as a shield to deflect exposure of corruption does not make for a promising start to any independent Catalonia, should one emerge.

    To my mind, there is no doubt that the Catalan autonomous government is acting illegally and with massive irresponsibility for entirely self-serving reasons and in doing so it putting under threat the entire foundation of the modern, democratic Spanish state. The Spanish military simply will not allow Catalan independence and in fact legally – since the military is bound to defend the indissoluble unity of Spain – it has every right to move to protect the Spanish state. Remember, the Basques and even the Asturians and Cantabrians will be watching developments with interest. The Spanish military will not sit by while the country slowly breaks up, and the Spanish government will act in safe knowledge that not matter how hard it cracks down, it’s generals will always approve.

    • tracey 6.1

      Wow. You put alot into that. Thanks.

    • In short, Catalonia has no more claim to the right of independence than the Auckland Super City has.

      Have you read the UN declaration of rights recently?

      All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

      What is Self-determination?

      Essentially, the right to self-determination is the right of a people to determine its own destiny. In particular, the principle allows a people to choose its own political status and to determine its own form of economic, cultural and social development. Exercise of this right can result in a variety of different outcomes ranging from political independence through to full integration within a state.

      So, yes, Auckland does have the right to secede and so does Catalonia, Taiwan, Tibet and Crimea (Which Crimea actually did).

      Just because there was a previous agreement doesn’t mean that that right was removed. If all of Catalonia wishes to remove themselves from Spain then the agreement either needs to be renegotiated or annulled.

      • Sanctuary 6.2.1

        Aucklanders are not “a people” in the terms of the UN – and the Catalans have never been an independent state, while the cultural differences from the rest of Spain are slight.

        “..Just because there was a previous agreement doesn’t mean that that right was removed….”

        See section 2 of the 1978 constitution I quoted above. It was explicitly given away.

        “…If all of Catalonia wishes to remove themselves from Spain then the agreement either needs to be renegotiated or annulled…”

        Having checked section 2, here is section 155:

        “…. If an Autonomous Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way seriously prejudicing the general interests of Spain, the Government . . . may, following approval granted by an absolute majority of the Senate, take the measures necessary in order to compel the latter forcibly to meet said obligations, or in order to protect the above-mentioned general interests.
        2. With a view to implementing the measures provided in the foregoing clause, the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities…”

        Note the use of the word “forcibly”.

        Even if Madrid wanted (and it doesn’t – using a crisis to political advantage is a two way street, although the central government has so far been remarkably restrained) to allow the Catalans drive a horse and cart through the constitution and seek independence, the military would most likely not let it happen. Anything less than triggering Article 155 to stop the Catalan government claiming independence would threaten Spain’s democracy with the grave possibility of a coup.

        IMHO, better the Guardia Civil squashing illegal dissent in Barcelona than the Ejército de Tierra ending democracy for all Spaniards.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Aucklanders are not “a people” in the terms of the UN

          We could be if we decided to be. That may be unlikely but it’s not outside the realm of possibility – especially if central government keeps fucking us over.

          and the Catalans have never been an independent state,

          And that doesn’t actually matter. Also:

          The area first emerged as a distinct entity with the rise of the County of Barcelona to pre-eminence in the 11th century. In the 12th century, the county was brought under the same royal rule as the neighbouring kingdom of Aragon, going on to become a major medieval sea power.

          Catalonia has been part of Spain since its genesis in the 15th century, when King Ferdinand of Aragon and Queen Isabella of Castile married and united their realms.

          Yep, seems that they were independent at one point before Spain existed and before they were part of Aragon.

          Relationships between people change over time and trying to prevent them by calling ZOMG, IT’S ILLEGAL is destructive of those relationships rather than constructive. This would be one of those many cases where the law is wrong.

          Really, it would be far better for both to do the split equitably if Catalonia voted to leave and become it’s own country.

  7. millsy 7

    I think its all over. Come Monday, Bill English will still be PM. My hope is that Cindy will stay on as leader, and try and wear National down over the next 3 years. My big worry is what is going to happen. English has made no secret of his hostility to public ownership or anything collective. We will probably get more privatisation and hacking away at the safety net.

    The impact of charter schools on the public education system, the future of our rail network, whether wages and conditions will be further depressed, avalibility of state and social housing, road pricing, are all things to consider. I am picking a sharp lurch to the right for National.

    • James 7.1

      Millsy – I think it is still too close to call but like you I see that the “stardust” of Jacinda has fallen away.

      Her captains call on tax and the big reversal (I think) cost her a huge amount of credibility.

      It’s ironic. Between Turei’s fraud admission and aderns captains call – they have possibly cost the left the election.

      • reason 7.1.1

        I think the greens will do well …. and continue a conversation about injustice and exploitation ……


        National is riddled with so much corruption and dirt …. that if not voted out in a couple of days time ….. could collapse through one of the the many scandal time bombs …..That Nice Mr Key left ticking ……….

        A flurry of dealings with death squad Durtee, Indonesian and Malaysia ….. Not to mention the Bahamas …. Before Johnny made-off

      • tracey 7.1.2

        No. Labour was at 24% a few short weeks ago. If National wins it is because over 40% of voters do not mind being lied to their faces as long as they have their bias confirmed.

        • james

          Really – it shows a real lack of depth in any of your thinking to see that you are unable to understand that there are a multitude of reasons people vote National – and not just what you think they think.

          • The Unliving

            So enlighten us. Why do you think so many people are prepared to vote National? What are these “reasons” that cause them to overlook the corruption and lies that National have use to divide this country?

      • Her captains call on tax and the big reversal (I think) cost her a huge amount of credibility.

        There was no big reversal. That’s just another RWNJ lie put out by National and their sheep followers.

    • Given up? ffs man I thought you were better than that

    • patricia bremner 7.3

      No Millsy. We are so close!!! They want you to fold your tent and get negative. Give Jacinda a chance by staying positive and seeking last minute support. Please don’t give James fodder!!

      • james 7.3.1

        He’s not giving me fodder – I have said the same thing as all of you in reply to him – Its too close to call. Too early to give up and call it.

    • Bearded Git 7.4

      46 plays 45 is all over? hold your horses millsy. the nz public are not stupid and Billy Liar has gone too far by supporting Joyce.

  8. Sanctuary 8

    It is to close to call. My reading of the public mood is the negartive tax attacks worked up until English jumped the shark with his slaughter the dairy herd comments, when they became counter-productive. The number of undecided decided voters (i.e. change their mind every few days as opposed to be ing undecided) is astonishing,

  9. James 9

    The last of the polls released for newshub tonight.

    Given that the one news poll has fallen back more or less in line with the newshub poll, I would guess there will be a strong showing for National in this poll.

    What will be really interesting will be the greens and NZFirst results.

    For me – it would be awesome if they were both below 5% but I don’t believe that will happen.

    But perhaps Jacinda can eat some more of the green vote and help make that happen.

    • Hope you can make it back to the neo con fest in time , … mind you ,… with this oil pipeline business it might be a little hard to fly anywhere in the foreseeable future..

    • Barfly 9.2

      Well James it seems by your steadfast support for the current government that you are happy with the current state of affairs and the current direction of government.

      Do you get joy from the social Darwinism practiced by the National/Act combo?

      How many more families living in cars do you want?

      What would like the suicide rate pushed up to?

      Is not the doubling of children admitted to hospital for malnutrition enough for you?

      Is the festering cowshit in rivers polluting our once beautiful land insufficient for you James?

      Well perhaps this should be part of the “lefts” attack adds on the current government – it’s all true though and how many people truly want this James?

      Why is it that this state of affairs is desirable to you?
      Why aren’t you recoiling in the horror and misery of it?

      • james 9.2.1

        “Well James it seems by your steadfast support for the current government that you are happy with the current state of affairs and the current direction of government.”

        yes – and it would seem that most people agree with me. – see is the government moving in the right direction polls for the last x years.

        If you think there were no people living in cars, no suicides, etc under Labour – you are having a laugh.

        Nobody wants that – but a change in government aint going to fix it – and I believe will make a lot of things worse.

        • Barfly

          A change in government has already changed it James National/Act’s have greatly worsened the situation James

          Do you deny all those things have become much worse under National?

          You say nobody want’s that…but James its your government of choice that has made all those things far far worse than they were.

          It’s record high suicides, homelessness, malnourished children and pollution James and are you really stating it’s nothing to with government REALLY?

          Don’t governments govern?

          • james

            Not saying its nothing to do with the government.

            Im saying I beleive things would be considerably worse over all if Labour had of been in power for the last 9 years.

            • Barfly

              Well we finally get to the heart of it James

              You don’t argue that National/Act haven’t presided over RECORD increases in homelessness, suicide, malnourished children and pollution

              “Im saying I beleive things would be considerably worse over all if Labour had of been in power for the last 9 years.”

              This seems to be your core belief – no matter how vile, wrong or corrupt things are “Labour would be worse” /sigh

            • The Unliving

              Im saying I beleive things would be considerably worse over all if Labour had of been in power for the last 9 years.

              Why do you believe this? There are very few who would claim that National have been especially proactive in dealing with these issues. Are you suggesting that Labour would somehow have done less?

        • reason

          Kids living in Cars is A unique National party outcome …….. James

          Nationals trajectory would have kids living in rubbish dumps in short order ….

          Its been one of the disgusting features of the Key and now English Govt …

          They don’t care about poor kids of their families ….

          “Winston Peters: Does he agree with an infamous New Zealander who said: “We are facing a severe home affordability and ownership crisis. The crisis has reached dangerous levels in recent years and looks set to get worse.”; if not, why not?…”

          Rt Hon JOHN KEY: No
          Rt Hon Winston Peters: Is the Prime Minister aware that he was the one who said that? ………


          Rt Hon Winston Peters: Does he stand by his statement that “immigration settings were about right, and the Auckland housing market would take care of itself.”; if so, is he satisfied with 34,000 new migrants moving to Auckland each year, adding more pressure on demand for housing, education, health, and infrastructure?

          Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Yes.

          Rt Hon Winston Peters: If he truly does not want New Zealanders to become, in his words, “tenants in their own country”—said in the campaign, of course—then why did his Government let immigration get so out of control that so many young New Zealand families today are going to be tenants and not owners of their homes? ”


          Rt Hon Winston Peters: If the latest household economic survey reports that every income decile has declined in homeownership …..except for the top 10 percent,……. when will he start governing for all New Zealanders and not just for his rich mates?

          Rt Hon JOHN KEY: If one looks generally at those who think the country is going in the right direction




          Its hard to know who Johnny made-off was working for …… but Deutsche bank are dirty as …. ditto jp morgan …

          BAD NEWZ RACING TRAVELS FAST (NZ) LIMITED (2001656) (Removed) – Director

          BAD NEWZ RACING TRAVELS FAST (NZ) LIMITED (2001656) (Removed) – Shareholder

          KEY, John

          FAUCHELLE BUILDERS LIMITED (827632) – Shareholder

          KEY, John Phillip

          EARL OF AUCKLAND LIMITED (1189242)

          KEY, John Phillip


          KEY, John Phillip


          KEY, John Phillip


          KEY, John Philip

          DEUTSCHE FINANCE NEW ZEALAND LIMITED (598443) (Removed) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          J.P. MORGAN NEW ZEALAND NOMINEES LIMITED (440888) (Removed) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          DEUTSCHE CORPORATE FINANCE NEW ZEALAND LIMITED (550561) (Removed) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          DEUTSCHE FUTURES NEW ZEALAND LIMITED (418757) (Removed) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          DEUTSCHE FINANCIAL CORPORATION NEW ZEALAND LIMITED (312930) (Removed) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          DEUTSCHE NEW ZEALAND LIMITED (321028) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          HAUNUI DAIRY LIMITED (1098943) (Removed) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          EARL OF AUCKLAND LIMITED (1189242) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          HAUNUI DAIRY LIMITED (1098943) (Removed) – Shareholder

          KEY, John Phillip

          DEUTSCHE PACIFIC LIMITED (587467) (Removed) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          BT FUNDS MANAGEMENT (NZ) LIMITED (447393) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          DEUTSCHE SERVICES NEW ZEALAND LIMITED (299381) (Removed) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          B.T. MANAGEMENT LIMITED (307901) (Removed) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          VALUTA INVESTMENTS LIMITED (305797) (Removed) – Ceased Director

          KEY, John Phillip

          THIRTY EIGHT JK LIMITED (6273390) – Director & Shareholder

          KEY, John Phillip

          HAUNUI DAIRY LIMITED (1098943) (Removed) – Shareholder

          KEY, John Phillip

          AIR NEW ZEALAND LIMITED (104799) – Director


    • tracey 9.3

      Still having FPP wet dreams James?

      • james 9.3.1

        Nope – I prefer MMP to FPP.

        And as I have said – I will respect the outcome of the election whoever wins. Even if its a labour – greens win.

        But I bet – some the election result – if its not to your liking you will be moaning, disrespectful, and going on about how so many NZ’ers are dumb, selfish, etc etc because they dont agree with you.

    • Bearded Git 9.4

      why do you hate the greens james?

      • reason 9.4.1

        James hates the Greens as they make him look stupid and bad.

        Actually James very own arsehole and lower gut would make him look stupid.

        If he drank our infected river water ….. his direction would be for the shit-house ..

        Which is very symbolic of National ….. And the explosive dysentery James would be suffering is very symbolic of him ….

        His squirty bum and sick guts would soon teach his brain to wise up … even he’s not going to keep drinking shit …. and shit himself to death ….to stick up for National.

        James may be a nasty sly devious greed driven english man ….. but basically he’s stupid

        • Robert Guyton

          In the interests of balance, reason, you should also tell us a bit about James’ bad side.

      • Robert Guyton 9.4.2

        Bearded, I believe James’ hates the Greens because Metiria took money straight from James’ pocket, his very pocket, his money and she smirked while she did it. Plus, Russel Norman said, “Give me back my flag!” in a voice that clearly had an Australian accent! Plus! Jeanette Fitzsimons once lit a fire when there was a fire ban on!!! Plus, Garth Hughes is Ronald McDonald and Julie Ann Genter is smarter than the whole National front bench! Bad Greens!!!

        • weka

          roflnui. I really am going to make a concerted effort sometime after the election to encourage you to write posts. Not personal attack on james posts 😉 but ones with that sharp and excellent turn of phrase. Maybe I’ll point you in the direction of the new opposition.

        • Bearded Git


          Was wondering why they are worth voting for. I will vote for them again and again….

  10. Whispering Kate 10

    I despair for this country – a loved one yesterday had her benefit halved and she ended up in doorway of WINZ in her pyjamas in tears and the security there wouldn’t even give her a tissue, she ended up seeing a the caseworker and it has been fixed up – this person is unable to work and has massive mental health issues. This person lives everyday under the worry that they will end up on the street and it doesn’t matter how much we assure this person that we will take of her if this should happen – being mentally unwell this doesn’t compute with her.

    I loathe to the bottom of my heart this Government and especially English for bringing about his vision of putting all unwell back in the work force when they haven’t a possibility of being able to work. Living under the stress of this everyday is equating to suicides every day. Family live with this constant fear for their loved ones. So many attempted suicides and the worst scenerio is that one day it will work for them and family will be in grief.

    If there is a God National will be finished this weekend. Pray for all the families who live on the knife edge of grief and suicide every day of their lives and please if we get a new Government may they purge the culture at WINZ and especially the Nazi protection squads at the door.

    We should be a first world country – we are now a third world country which is insulting the third world.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 10.1

      Winz will get even worse with a 4th National term.

      • greywarshark 10.1.1

        Shut up Awww. Sometimes we don’t want to hear a replay of that doleful refrain. Sorry about your friend Kate and that she is better for a while. Can’t wait to see if we are finally shot of these National smirking low-lifes for a while. Of course If they do go into opposition they will spend much of their time cooking up treats for the left that would make haggis look like angel’s food.

    • James 10.2

      “Especially the Nazi protection squads at the door.”

      the security guards are just hard working people doing their jobs – generally for a low wage (you know the kind of people the left are Supposed to represent). Calling them nazi protection squads Hardly shows solidarity with them does it.

      Also remember they are there as a result of Tully going into a winz office and killing people. Something one commenter in here said he should be “hailed as a hero” for.

      You don’t mention why her benefit was cut – but regardless it sounds like it was a mistake and they were professional and efficient.

      She saw a case worker and it was resolved the same day.

      Edit – I have great sympathy for people with needs like your loved one. It’s not good that there are issues with their payments and they should at least have the confidence that the $ is something that will just happen and it’s not another thing they need to worry about.

      • WILD KATIPO 10.2.1

        As professional and efficient as using a few illegal pseudonyms , eh , James ? ….

      • Molly 10.2.2

        “Also remember they are there as a result of Tully going into a winz office and killing people. “

        They are there to remind those going in, and those watching from without, that this service is there to dehumanise them.

        Tully is not going to return.

        • james

          “They are there to remind those going in, and those watching from without, that this service is there to dehumanise them..”

          oh really – since you state that as fact – anything to back that up ?

          Yeah – no – you need a new tin foil hat.

          • One Two

            That you thrive by coming to this site as an agitator, simply enables others to learn and understand, ‘your type’..

            I’m sure that opportunity is appreciated…

          • weka

            Anyone that is paying attention understands that the measures now taken by WINZ far exceed what is needed to keep their staff safe. The overlap between the security aspects and the dehumanising aspects is real. Plenty of stories out there that explain this if you want to open your ears.

          • Molly

            Well, your comment displays no reflection on what it would feel like for those visiting those offices to have security at the door before facing their case managers – so it is an example of “…those watching from without”.

            Given the recent public publishing of stories from those requiring assistance, and the treatment they have received (and help they haven’t), it is quite easy to find those that reflect the “…those going in”.

            Of course, your “‘cos Tully” is a non-linked evidence statement as well. Well done once again for hypocrisy. (Especially if you ignore the fact that he asked for and was refused help many times before committing that tragic act of violence.)

            So. Your count is three for three.
            1. Ignore impact on those going for help, because from your point of view -they don’t matter.
            2. Ignore evidence of personal harm offered by those who have shared their stories.
            3. Ignore other factors at play apart from one man’s violent solution.

            You are fairly good at ignoring evidence when it suits, but you are masterful at providing evidence on how the self-involved of this country think.

      • tracey 10.2.3

        You have sympathetic words but your vote preference suggests otherwise.

      • weka 10.2.4

        “Especially the Nazi protection squads at the door.”

        the security guards are just hard working people doing their jobs – generally for a low wage (you know the kind of people the left are Supposed to represent). Calling them nazi protection squads Hardly shows solidarity with them does it.

        From memory some of the security staff weren’t that happy with what they were being asked to do. Don’t think they made much headway on that though.

        Also remember they are there as a result of Tully going into a winz office and killing people. Something one commenter in here said he should be “hailed as a hero” for.

        So you want to use a single perspective from some years ago to rationalise the mistreatment of a seriously vulnerable NZer? That’s fucked up even by your standards James.

        Again, there are large overlaps between the security issues and the dehumanising ones. What is happening at the doors of WINZ is not only about Ashburton, it’s also about the authoritarian and protocol-fascist ideology of the govt. There is no need for it to be this bad but National want it this way.

        You don’t mention why her benefit was cut – but regardless it sounds like it was a mistake and they were professional and efficient.

        She saw a case worker and it was resolved the same day.

        Right. So NZers are entitled to welfare if they’re willing to turn up on the doorstep of WINZ in their pyjamas and in distress. Good to know where you set the bar of professionalism.

        I’ll tell you how I see it. If WINZ were being run properly, then this person would have had a case manager who knew who situation and understood the particular issues that make her vulnerable. Having benefits cut for no good reason is not uncommon, but even so in this case it should have been as simple as a phone call, getting it reinstated until the problem could be sorted out.

        The thing that should have jumped out at you is why someone who is so obviously ill is being required to doorstep WINZ.

        Edit – I have great sympathy for people with needs like your loved one. It’s not good that there are issues with their payments and they should at least have the confidence that the $ is something that will just happen and it’s not another thing they need to worry about.

        Yeah, you probably should have led with that. And expressed some of that sympathy in the body of your comment. Afterthoughts aren’t enough.

        • tracey

          And today we hear that the govt is dragging its feet paying out the 19m fuck up that cost some beneficiaries a 1000 a year!

          • weka

            I haven’t looked closely at that one yet. It’s tricky because it involves Special Benefit, which technically pays better than TAS, so giving up SB for TAS might not be a wise move for beneficiaries.

    • Yeah but little grots like James cant see that and would rather troll than admit it. And that’s the mentality of these types , until we manage to get rid of National the enabling of little creeps like this will continue to go unchecked.

    • Rosemary McDonald 10.4

      My heart goes out to you WK. Tragically, this is not an uncommon occurrence here in 21st century Godzone.

      Arbeit macht frei.

      And if not…there is death, or the dishonour of incarceration.

      Your loved one WK, is she enrolled with a community mental health provider?

      If she is….pay them a visit and make sure they are doing the job they are being funded for. Avoid challenging an actual community health support worker…remember…they are the group that were deliberately excluded from the Pay Equity settlement.

      Kia kaha….

      • Whispering Kate 10.4.1

        Yes she has the support of her Mental Health Team and they have been notified. This person was asked to go to a seminar for work – on the day before she was so unwell she phoned her worker at WINZ and had it down on the file that she would come in but on another day – so it was all Kosher. It still came through in her bank account as being halved. As for the Nazi Police at the door – nothing condones being callous and not offering help when help is needed. James go and crawl under a rock you are not welcome on this site. And remember James, if we had employment and homes for people to live in – then the sentries at the door would not be needed – its a symptom of a rotten uncaring society.

        Remember this mantra – we, each and every one of us, are a heartbeat away from being vulnerable in one way or another. This Government does not serve the vulnerable, it treats them like an unwelcome pest. Just remember that.

        A plague on the house of National, they are a disgrace to society.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          . ” Government does not serve the vulnerable, it treats them like an unwelcome pest”

          Kicks us when we’re down, then stomps on us.

    • weka 10.5

      Thanks WK. These personal stories are so important at this time, I truly think that most NZers haven’t a clue just about bad WINZ are now.

    • patricia bremner 10.6

      Oh Whispering Kate, that is so sad and typical of their indifference. Their Victorian attitude of the “Deserving poor” and the “Unfit” coupled with this half baked Social schemes have caused endless misery.

      We need to tell these stories and ask people to vote them out. Keep strong, we will win. There are good people out there, many who do not want this done in their name.

      It is turning that into votes that counts. I know I have influenced 4 people this election, and still would like another, as when I vote I feel them standing with me.

      • miravox 10.6.1

        I don’t think this government believes there are any deserving poor. If they were deserving they’d be rich.

        Why else would the government have removed all the things that could help improve life for them?

      • Whispering Kate 10.6.2

        We have nearly lost this loved one to suicide, on a ventilater for 6 days in critical care and not knowing if the outcome would be fine, if and when the overdose wore off. There were prior to this two suicide attempts. Life is like walking through a mine field and uncaring people like James just make life even more unbearable for the unwell and family. Family get shell shocked and suffer from Post Tramatic Syndrome as well.

        How on earth Bill English thinks with his prized Social Investment Policy that he so worships, is going to wrench these poor sods off their benefit and into work beggars belief. All my loved one wants is not to be harrassed and threatened with benefit loss on a regular basis and to be left in peace so that she can live her life as wretched as it is – without their cruel punishing threats of cutting off her lifeline/benefit , pathetic as it is.

  11. Brokenback 11

    The Fuel outage continues to wreek havoc with International air travel and freight BUT media coverage is diminished and spinning that it’s an Auckland problem .


    Meanwhile , not a single litre of Jet Fuel has been transported to Wiri by Road as yet[ as per the 2012 MBIE contingency plan.

    There’ll be a a single load “trial” today 7 days after the outage occurred .

    Morning report was told this morning that 6-8 Tankers would be working around the clock from tomorrow on..
    Best case scenario is 32 tankers/day and we’re told that the largest Planes on long haul consume 7 Tanker loads.

    Meanwhile 34 tankers are delivering ground fuel out of the Tauranga marine terminal.

    • Bearded Git 11.1

      Yep I noticed that Broken. The MSM don’t want this sheeted home to National being useless while people are voting. I just heard on RNZ that 100 flights had now been cancelled. Talk about a shambles.

      Key/English are penny pinchers without a strategic bone in their body. $58m on greater storage would have largely sorted this-peanuts. They were told in 2012 that a jet-fuel outage would cost $466m.

      • BM 11.1.1

        It’s up to Auckland airport to sort out and guarantee fuel supply.

        Why should a private company be subsidized by the taxpayer?

        • tracey

          Agree but why is the CEO of the Transport Ministry running the repair? You also apply this to farmers too BM. They are businesses and we currently subsidise them 450m by leaving them out of ets but leave, say, forestry in.

          • BM

            Personally, I think the whole ETS should be scrapped and any money raised invested into dealing with the effects of climate change.

            • lprent

              The problem is that the effects of climate change are ongoing and quite laggy. From just the existing inputs of greenhouse gases and heat there will be at least 2000 years of effects. Probably being the most severe over the next two to three centuries.

              So you seem to think that a on-off payment is likely to cover it. Seems like a foolish idea to me.

              I agree about scrapping the ETS – it simply doesn’t work. It is highly unlikely in my view that it or anything like it could be made to work.

              Similarly the Green idea about sequestering carbon into wood or plants is just as useless, unless they start building anaerobic conditions. The time scales are way too short to be effective and it’d interfere with getting enough food for having a peak world population at 9 billion or above. Effectively it’d force a concentration of food production into a smaller and is likely to damage the environment there. Besides I can see many ways for the market to rort any incentives to do that.

              A simple tax on all sources of fossil hydrocarbons by all governments starting with our own would be sufficient to actually curb their use and make alternatives more economically viable. Treat it like tobacco.

              • BM

                The problem is that the effects of climate change are ongoing and quite laggy. From just the existing inputs of greenhouse gases and heat there will be at least 2000 years of effects. Probably being the most severe over the next two to three centuries.

                I completely agree trying to stop climate change is futile when you look at the timescales involved.

                Any sort of carbon taxes should be put aside to be spent on protecting against sea level rise or the effects of an increasingly volatile and erratic weather system.

                You’d get a hell of a lot more support for that then paying money into an ETS.

                • lprent

                  I completely agree trying to stop climate change is futile when you look at the timescales involved.

                  Trying to stop the use of things that cause climate change in the immediate future is a lot easier. It just involves making them expensive enough that initially more costly alternatives become viable.

                  Raise the price on them directly

                  Any sort of carbon taxes should be put aside to be spent on protecting against sea level rise or the effects of an increasingly volatile and erratic weather system.

                  We also can’t ameliorate or protect against it enough. If you look at continuing to burn fossil fuels or burning limestone to make concrete (which is just as bad) the numbers on effects get alarming very fast.

                  If we use all of the ex tractable fossil carbon resources, the potential sea level rise is about 75 metres. The potential temperature rises at the equatorial and subtropics regions are such that those regions would become largely uninhabitable by humans without significiant technological support. We are a species that developed in the midst of the ice age of the last 45 million years (since Antarctica drifted into the south polar region), and so are all of our client species like crops and farm animals. We would be part of the die back if we reproduce the world’s normal environment.

                  The problem is that in the geological evidence from the past against what we are seeing now makes it apparent that the icecaps that currently govern our current climate are frighteningly easy to lose. They could disappear fast over the next few centuries. There is a risk that Greenland and West Antarctica could disappear in decades one they start.

                  A tax on fossil carbon needs to be punitive and most of the proceeds need to go on developing alternatives.

                  To me, alleviating the effects of climate change is a pointless activity because it is unsustainable over the long term. The simpler and cheaper solution is to just give up the land early that will flood or become useless for farming rather than wasting resources on it. So closing off much of Florida, Bangladesh, and the Caribbean to humans is a better idea than trying to build futile dykes and hurricane/typhoon defences.

                  Going off and building resilience into the systems that sustain our civilisation makes far more sense. That means more food storage, redundant and communication transport systems, and evacuation systems to move people out of affected areas and preventing them from going back.

              • eco Maori/kiwi


        • JC

          BM @ 11. 1.1.

          A number of irrigating farmers are!

          “The Government has already allocated around half a billion taxpayer dollars to subsidise industrial-scale irrigation schemes around the country, which will result in more cows and more polluted rivers,” executive director Russel Norman said.


        • Bearded Git

          its called strategic national interest….why else did National get the report before cabinet that they ignored? and this despite air new zealand warning them.

        • Brokenback

          The storage , which is now quite apparent to be totally inadequate , at Wiri is owned by the Fuel companies.
          Exxon Mobil , BP ,Zed[ formerly Shell].
          Exxonmobil & BP pay next to no tax on a ~$250m/annum operating profit.

          First step , whilst discussing& costing viable alternatives for supply logistics from Refinery to Wiri , would be to compel said Corporations to increase their Auckland storage to allow full continued operation at Mangere for 30 days.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Why is such a strategic asset privately owned and thus allowed to produce this sort of failure?

    • AsleepWhileWalking 12.1

      It is frighting to think of the risk posed to staff. Not worth it, and passing the real names of panel menbers to the Social Security Appeals Authority should have been sufficient.

  12. Fireblade 13

    I know this has been mentioned here before, but the Three am show has stated the Reid Research poll phones 25% mobiles. Colmar Brunton only phones landlines. That must influence polling data.

    A significant number of people don’t have landlines now, far fewer landlines than during the last election.

    The Reid Research poll is out tonight.

    • james 13.1

      So – are you saying that you think that the reid poll is likely to be more accurate?

      Thats the one that had National looking a lot better……

      Only a few days ago a lot on here were saying it was waaaay out – because of the Colmar poll (which has now reverted to close to the same position of the Reid)

      • WILD KATIPO 13.1.1

        L0L! … what is being said time and again my little skiting braggart , – is that we watch the trends, not the individual polls. And the facts are … that no political party’s jump up and down 10 points either way in 1 or 2 weeks.

        It just asking too much to believe that one week a poll says up by around 10 points then a week later the same pollsters say down by 10 points.

        And all we’ve had now are wild swings by most of them.

        The only consistency are the internal party polls and both major party’s are saying they are neck and neck.

        • james

          the more you call me names – the more I know you love me.

          But – the CB is now falling in line with the reid. And their trend hasnt been as positive to the left.

          I guess we will know Sat night.

          • Robert Guyton

            James – here’s the thing. Over the past three elections, lefties like most here have suffered considerable blows at election time, around now, when their hopes have been dashed by a loss to John key’s National Party. At this point in time, readers here are very anxious that it could happen again. They are variously bouyed by news and polls and flattened by others. You are spending a great deal of time here, provoking people with your “reckons” and seeming to enjoy rubbing the noses of those here in any success National might have in this competition. You clearly enjoy doing that, but seem unable to see how that might make people feel. You gloat, you “predict”, you “wish” for the destruction of The Greens and a loss for Labour.
            James, why do you bother? Couldn’t you just find a fly and pull its wings off? Perhaps there’s an elderly person living nearby who you could torment by putting dog poo in their letter box or throwing stones on their roof? James, again, why do you behave this’a’way? It can’t be that you are annoyed by what people here say – you come here by choice, don’t you? Perhaps, out of the goodness of your heart, you could choose to absent yourself for a while. Most here would enjoy time away from your irritating presence. Just a polite suggestion from someone who recognises a socially disfunctional person when I see one.

          • BM

            Lol, Stop putting poo in Roberts letterbox James and don’t throw stones on his roof either.

            THe old fella is getting quite upset

          • Bearded Git

            poll of polls has lab/gr 47 nats 44

            • James

              Yep – it’s close right – anyone’s game to win.

              • One Two

                Comments you make here, is a game you’re playing..

                Media play games using the relentless polling ‘results’…

                The All Blacks who you regularly bend over for with words on this blog, play games…

                Unsurprisingly, you’re not able to identify that an election, is not a game!

    • ianmac 13.2

      There is a suggestion that Colmar Brunton changed their methodology between its last two polls. Not sure if this is good or bad. CB won’t confirm or deny.
      Reid tonight usually favours National over CB figures.

      • james 13.2.1

        No they didn’t and the did confirm this – I will see if I can find the link.

        EDIT Ianmac – seems you have been fed some fake news.

        They tweeted (sorry cannot link for some reason) but you can check their tweets:

        In answer to this question – Hi, the poll has bee conducted using the exact same method as previous polls.

        They also confirmed 100% landline calling, and that there was no changes to the weighting procedure

    • AsleepWhileWalking 14.1

      There us an actual risk. That’s why the Remote Claims Unit exists.

    • james 14.2

      Disgusting – that person (and any person doing that) should be held to account and fired.

      • tracey 14.2.1

        Why? Collins leaked a guy’s name leading to death threats. Bennett deliberately breached the Privacy Act… Both still there.

  13. esoteric pineapples 15

    I think memes about Bill’s “fiscal hole” could swing this election


    Show us your fiscal hole, Bill

    Stop talking about your fiscal hole, Bill

    Bill talks out of his fiscal hole


    • james 15.1

      Why not give it a try then?

      Nothing to loose at the moment right?

      • esoteric pineapples 15.1.1

        I could make one up in about five minutes but the two issues are:

        1/ Can I use other people’s images of Bill English or does that break copyright law

        2/ How do you promote a meme so lots of people see it.

        Anyone have any advice?

        • james

          1/ Can I use other people’s images of Bill English or does that break copyright law

          I guess that depends on where you get it from – I have no idea on copyright law.

          2/ How do you promote a meme so lots of people see it.

          Post on facebook groups with people who you think will agree with it and hope that they share it out to all their friends.

          Good Luck.

    • Psych nurse 15.2

      Do you create a bigger fiscal hole by fiscing ?.

  14. Ffloyd 16

    Just listening to K Ryan interviewing Jacinda Ardern. Disgraceful. Asking a question and interrupting before answer starts is Imo not good interviewing. Also has a very combative tone.

    • Pat 16.1

      Jacinda Adern performed very well (again)…Kathryn Ryan I thought was firm but fair except for trying to push responsibilty for the (in)actions of future governments on JA….that aside I doubt that many who are likely to swing will have been listening so its impact either way is negligible…..fingers crossed that the polls havnt reflected the true level of desire for change…we’ll know soon enough.

      • ianmac 16.1.1

        Not happy with Katherine’s harsh accusative style. Jacinda battled on but boy she must be tired.
        Bill on tour gets only tiny groups to speak at.
        Jacinda attracts huge crowds and that must be debilitating and exhilerating. I bet she has lost a lot of weight.
        Jacinda will be the next PM aided by a resurgence Green Team.

    • JC 16.2

      I tried to listen but found it difficult!

      Rather than a “Leader’s Interview. It seemed to be more about Katherine Ryan, and her ego. And an opportunity to show off her knowledge on a topic.

      She does this regularly. You only need to listen to any one of her interviews with Rod Oram. Where she fires off a question, and rather than shut up and listen, (to a leading business commentators opinion) Fires off with her view of the world.

  15. eco Maori/kiwi 17

    To MSM sorry you can not see me through your Camera all of your actions can be read Ka Pai

    Now here is the joke of a tax system that national have made
    There is a person whom has $200.000 he borrow’s $800.0000 so now we have a million to invest in a business this business has a turn over of a million and has 3 full time staff
    on a salary of $50.000 each total of $150.000 after main expenses have been payed they have got
    $200.000. So my point is with creative accounting and the accountants
    advise them to buy and replace some thing that is still running fine just to wipe out a GST bill I prefer to keep the plant and pay some GST to Inland revenue and make more of a fairer profit I’m going off track the fucken Big picture is that the 3 workers are going to pay more tax than the business that employs them and this is the facts .
    The interests on the $800.000 loan is tax deductible In my view inland revenue pays the business Interest I was in business 15 years ago and you did not have all the tax deductions one has NOW . Would you like Inland revenue to pay all YOUR interest
    I no this is how it works i have associated with business owners since i started working.
    These business are all around US .
    The most tax paid is PAYE and GST and DUTIE TAX on fuel road user charges E.C.T
    So nearly all the tax is payed by the WORKERS in one way or a anther. Most business pay minimal TAX. Every thing my fellow left bloggers on this site have said about tax is right. W.T.F
    Some one is pissing in the wind trying to COMPARE OBAMA’S achievements with thrumps .
    In my view OBAMA had a MASSIVE mess to clean up after a neo libreal changed all the banking rules and middle class people had brought 3 houses each on the dum ass theory that there capital gains would pay there Dept .
    If OBAMA did not handle this WORLD financial CATASTROPHE right this event would have damaged the whole Worlds financial markets for decades everyone should be praising OBAMA . He got alternative energy flourishing around OUR world and many
    other Great achievements to help mitigate climate change well that’s my view on these facts.
    So neo libreals just go out to grab as much MONEY/ POWER as they can and DON’T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE WORKERS or the damage there dum ass policys money grab does to OUR WORLD. They Leave’s a big mess for people like OBAMA to clean up and this is the main resaon that our WORLD has so much poverty the fucken greedy neo liberals won’t shear there LOLLIES. My pick for Saturdays election
    Labour 50 %
    Greens 15 %
    Maori P 6 %

    These’s are the Ideal party’s to lead OUR beautiful Country into a fair and bright Environmentally Sustainable FUTURE for every thing. I have thought long and hard on my choices for OUR new Goverment

    • james 17.1

      “My pick for Saturdays election
      Labour 50 %
      Greens 15 %
      Maori P 6 %”

      Well – if one thing is certain in this election. Its that you are going to be very wrong.

      For the easiest and less controversial point – Maori party on 6% ….. Not a hope.

    • Imodium 17.2

      Hey eco M/K -you are way out with your financials -there is no GST on wages or Interest. For your bloke to “wipe out his GST” he will need to spend a heap on new plant. My annual GST,PAYE and Income Tax bills are all very similar amounts around $600k each.

  16. miravox 18


    Anne Salmond calls Blinglish “fundamentally decent” despite resorting to lying,

    Mad cow
    Rent rort
    Ignoring crises – housing, poverty, suicides

    None of these are things are fundamentally decent imo.

    • tracey 18.1

      Fundamentally deceny leaders do not deliberately lie and refuse to back down. The key word is “leader”.

      Trying to work out how a PM with control of Billions and able to determine policy deliberately lying is better than Turei’s admission of deceit at 23?

      • Barfly 18.1.1

        It’s not better but it does seem to be more successful.

      • miravox 18.1.2

        Faking decency. It’s a skill admired much more than actual decency.

        • Anne

          Faking decency. Yes.

          As someone who regarded English as a fundamentally decent bloke, the actual English persona was present during last night’s debate for all to see who bothered to look. It wasn’t a pretty sight. Smug, deceitful, taunting and bereft of genuine remorse. The real Bill English finally stood up.

          • JC

            Well trained by his mentor/ colleague/ former Boss.

            Sorry can’t recall who said it today just now, but he has a lot to confess on Sunday to the “Parish priest”

    • weka 18.2

      Haven’t read it yet, but am guessing it’s a class thing. That professional class, especially the liberal ones, like to be kind about each other.

      I understand the inclination (I was raised in that and like that). English isn’t a sociopath like Key. It’s why he’s not as good at it as Key. But I agree he can no longer be called a decent man, his actions rule that out.

      • miravox 18.2.1

        A class thing is likely, but maybe and image thing as well. He appears to be a good dad and partner, has an easy manner. People often judge decency on these things.

    • ianmac 18.3

      miravox I think Anne Salmond makes a fair comment. We have been lead to believe that English is at least honest. It is therefore sad to see that as a myth when he sits there and blatantly lies. Power corrupts?

      • Bearded Git 18.3.1

        does nobody remember the billion Billy Liar doled out to Hubbard just to keep his southern farmer mates happy when in reality the government had no liability

      • miravox 18.3.2

        Mostly the article is fair comment. However I do think the description of him as ‘fundamentally decent’ is totally wrong. That’s why I put an off the top of my head list of things he has done that are not fundamentally decent.

    • savenz 18.4

      Bill may appear to be decent, but unfortunately he’s suffering from delusions of ideology otherwise known as Right Wing Nut Job, with a robotic heart and memory loss.
      He (like Key) appears to be decent, is protected by MSM, but his actions say otherwise.

      Bill English: The Forgotten History
      The story of Bill English, before he became a nice guy

  17. eco Maori/kiwi 19

    During the financial melt down of 2008 2009 It did not affect US as much as other country’s Because a Labour finance Minster could see the big PICTURE and payed down our dept Michael Cullen hence no over sea’s banks SCREAMING OUT FOR THERE MONEY NOW. Which is the situation that john key and bill english have got US into now if those overseas banks want there money we are in the SHIT There you go.

  18. aom 20

    National and its fellow travellers must be shitting themselves. That BusinessNZ arsehole Kirk Hope has been given space on stuff to spew his bile and lies again! (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/97072267/labours-fair-pay-agreements-mark-biggest-industrial-relations-change-in-a-decade.)

  19. Grey Area 21

    Please don’t feed the troll.

  20. halfcrown 22

    Interesting article By Prof Anne-Marie Brady about the Chinese influence in New Zealand politics, Apart from other things, listing all the National politicians that have done very well having dealings with China.

    Too long and too many areas to quote here, (57 pages), but well worth the time and trouble to read before you vote if you haven’t voted already.

    Professor Brady’s Magic Weapons paper published in September 2017 detailed how China’s government had cultivated close links with the ruling parties of New Zealand.

  21. patricia bremner 23

    This is too little too late. Voters have cast their vote, or are deciding on Bill’s honesty or Jacinda’s empathy.

  22. savenz 24

    Just got a targeted lie add from the Natz on You Tube saying they will give me extra $1000 or something like that.

    It’s started. The National Parties last minute social media campaign.

    Very worrying how many people can be influenced by these targeted adds that have zero accountability and little traceability (shouldn’t political adds all say who paid for it)?

    It pays to have friends like Mr Thiel it seems. Just a coincidence he got NZ citizenship and millions in sweet share deals courtesy of the National party and paid by the NZ taxpayer.

    We are in a new political landscape, post democracy.

    Vote the liars and mass surveillance National Party OUT, before they sell off the entire country and take cash for citizenship to the levels they take fake students, fake carbon credits, fake statistics, fake clean image, fake news… get the idea

    • indiana 24.1

      Do you, like Andrew Little, not understand how a progressive income tax system works?

      • savenz 24.1.1

        How do they know I’m going to be better off under National? Are they using their surveillance techniques to find out, or just openly deceiving – because some people are worse off under National’s plans.

    • Janice 24.2

      Not just social media. I have just had a robo call from BE. I took great pleasure in saying I don’t listen to liars F off. I wonder if these calls are analysed and if I will be counted as a no.

  23. Jon Jones 25


    Jacinda has done very well for Labour (those list MPs owe her a large bottle of Whiskey, at the very least) but its difficult to remove a sitting government when the economy is running well

    • savenz 25.1

      More fake news? “economy is running well”

      • Jon Jones 25.1.1

        What part of this is fake?

        Gross domestic product expanded 0.8 per cent in the three months to June 30, up from a revised 0.6 per cent expansion in the March quarter and was 2.5 per cent higher on the year, Statistics New Zealand said. The median in a Bloomberg poll of 12 economists’ forecasts was for GDP to expand 0.8 per cent in the three months ended June 30 and 2.5 per cent on the year.

        • lprent

          What use is GDP as a measure of anything? You’d have to be completely ignorant fool to use that as a measure for anything economic in NZ.

          Our internal economy is so small that simply fiddling with immigration is sufficient to boost the whole internal economy in trying to provide housing, transport, and everything else required to settle an annual intake of 72,000 immigrants. It does nothing to boost our overall economy in the short-term.

          All it is good for is to make stupid idiots like you vote in a foolish fashion after the the incumbent government does a ponzi boost to the internal economy before an election.

          • Jon Jones

            Personal attacks aside if the economy had gone backwards, even slightly, you don’t think Labour wouldn’t attack National over it?

            Like it or not its something a large majority of people will take notice of and vote accordingly, enough to sway the election…maybe, maybe not

            • greywarshark

              Jon Jones

            • locus

              the “sitting government” has done a fine job of sitting but not governing…
              and the result is an economy, an environment and social equity that have gone backwards for the majority – and there Jon Jones lies the issue ….

        • savenz

          Pity Kiwi’s can’t afford to buy butter and profits are now our biggest export under National.

          Disasters make GDP look good. But loss of life and livelihood for most people in a disaster is NOT a good thing.

          We are building the most expensive road in the world under Bill English and we are running out of certain types of fuel with gross mismanagement of business.

          To be human, is NOT to think like an economist.

          GDP pushers are robots like Teresa May and Bill English.

        • NewsFlash

          Any expansion is a direct result of immigration, NOT govt economic policy, why do you think RW govts around the world like importing migrants?

          • Jon Jones

            Immigration is a good thing, brings in new ideas, cultures and peoples, the more immigration the better

            • Stuart Munro

              Immigration is like any other phenomenon – it has good and bad sides.

              A smart government regulates to get as much of the good and as little of the bad as possible.

              A fucking stupid government seeks to maximize immigration so that the capital inflow temporarily obscures their failure to grow the real economy.

              • savenz

                well said Stuart Munro

              • JC

                {Liar), Jonathan Coleman NOVEMBER, 2009

                The Economic Impact of Immigration

                “If we closed off immigration entirely the consequences for our economy would be profound. Without current levels of inward migration …

                Our GDP would drop by 11.3 per cent.

                And to complete the picture, GDP per capita would fall by 1.8 percent – $1,000 for every man woman and child in New Zealand.

                That is a frightening picture of a blighted future that illustrates in the starkest terms why immigration matters. If any doubts about this still persist, they must surely be extinguished by the findings of this very important report.”


            • greywarshark

              What little bedside quote book did you get that from? I bet there are pages in your head filled with little homilies, similar to ‘If you always put your right sock on first, the day will be happy and fulfilling’.

              How good of you to drop in your little bits of rote learning to enlighten us. And the best bit is you know its not entirely true or false when immigration is being considered, but it annoys people to hear half-truths. Annoying people is what those who are a little lacking in self-esteem and not self-starters choose to do to get attention.

            • locus

              J J – National’s promotion of increasing immigration may appear to pump up an ailing economy, but their lack of competence in managing immigration is resulting in serious degradation in the quality of life for New Zealanders.

              National has completely failed to develop long-term plans to cope with the implications of the increasing needs for public services, health, housing and infrastructure.

              We really need to put a stop to this kind of feckless and reckless management of our economy

  24. eco Maori/kiwi 26

    Nobody said there was gst on wages!!!!!!!!!!

  25. savenz 27

    The best thing Labour and Green political groups can do now is to try and get any community groups to urge people to make sure they vote so that the under 35 year olds and women are activated to vote! Especially in Auckland.

    Make it clear they can vote today, tomorrow as well as Saturday and how important it is, if they are unhappy with how things are going and want some change to do their bit.

    Send the government a Message!!! They need it because Bills, only just discovered poverty, congestion and new hospitals and schools are needed. He also thought that the oil industry can do no wrong and now everyone’s flights been cancelled because his friend the oil industry failed to invest in any safe guards with 40% more usage.

    The supercity is a roaring success under National. Less services, more rates, less accountability, feeding the corporate troughs with public money has burgeoned under their “SUPER city”.

    I’m so pleased that Sky City has more pokie machines and that TVNZ land was sold so they can build their conference centre.

    Can National really get away with saying each election they will support local people and communities and still people fall for it, after 9 years?

    Now’s the time to send them a message.

  26. NewsFlash 28

    The normalizing of LYING was started by Key, and has continued up to today, it appears Kiwi’s either accept it now as normal behavior or simply don’t care, certainly right minded individuals are the more prevalent, winning is more important than how you win.

    Howard in Aus offered Tax cuts to try and get reelected (4th term), but the Aussies weren’t that DUMB, and voted him out and Labour in, for National to win this election on a Tax bribe where a majority buy into the idea is a very poor reflection on how society has changed in this country, and not for the better.

    A tweet I read this morning, Chris Bramwell RNZ, saying the Mou is officially over and it was just “their attempt to change the Government”, another example of RW’s preferring to LIE.

  27. AsleepWhileWalking 30

    Another one ffs:


    “They had three supermarket trolleys, one of which had food in it.

    “They were polite and obliging and they swept up the place and left it neat and tidy.

    “There’s another group of people who sleep around the back. There’s about seven or eight of them.”

  28. Barfly 31

    I was wondering what had happened to this


    Justice delayed is justice denied

    • eco Maori/kiwi 31.1

      OUR incorruptible justice system YEA RIGHT

      I have been waiting for that verdict on that case on our environment.
      BIg upps Barfly

  29. joe90 32

    When you try to stiff the locals…

    This woman has had enough of tourists and throws rocks at them pic.twitter.com/cG6wjmdbMl— Daily Mail Online (@MailOnline) September 19, 2017

  30. savenz 33

    “On Sunday it emerged that a farmer digging up swamp kauri had damaged the pipeline, and it could be out of action for two weeks.” (1)
    Digging up Swamp Kauri in Northland sounds alot like an Orivida Kauri Ltd venture and herein lies the irony is that Energy Minister Judith Collins, whos husband is CEO of Orivida Ltd (2), fronted media to reassure airline carriers and Aucklanders “that it is “unlikely” that motorists would be inconvenienced.” (1)
    Once again Judith Collins and her connection with Orivida, Kauri Swamp Tree Exports (as well as water and baby formula exports) continues to raise some serious credibility issues, particularly with regards to this pipeline rupture, and her role as Energy Minister.
    (1) https://www.stuff.co.nz/…/aucklands-fuel-supply-vulnerabili…
    (2) https://www.tvnz.co.nz/…/national-party-donors-allegedly-in…

    from Bring back Campbell Live Facebook page

  31. Whispering Kate 34

    Well well well as if we should be surprised. Australia is experiencing severe heat waves as we speak and are reaching 40 C in September, this will drift over here and Sunday Monday we will be getting high 20’s and into 30’s. And this Government still pays lip service to climate change. The Met weather man said this will mean for Australia extreme heat conditions and extreme bush fires this coming summer. The Herald said it was unprecedented for this time of the year.

    Makes me glad I voted Greens – at least they understand the seriousness of the climate and its changing for the worse for all the world.


  32. joe90 35

    Nicaragua is in, leaving the U.S. and Syria as the only nations not to sign the Paris climate accord,

    Nicaragua’s President Daniel Ortega announced Monday that Nicaragua will sign the Paris Agreement in solidarity with countries most vulnerable to climate change. “We will soon adhere, we will sign the Paris Agreement. We have already had meetings addressing the issue and we have already programmed the accession of Nicaragua, “Ortega said, according to official information.

    In 2015 Nicaragua refused to sign the Paris Agreement because it considered that the global proposal to fight against climate change “was not realistic”. Ortega again made clear the position of Nicaragua and the weaknesses that, in his view, is evidenced by the Paris Agreement.

    “Scientists have told the political leaders, the rulers that this (the Accord) does not give, and have said that it is not true that you will be able to reduce the warming with these actions that are being committed in word, because there is no obligation to do what is being said there. That is, it is a declaration, a proclamation, “he argued.


  33. thechangeling 36

    To Kirk Hopes piece in stuff today (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/97072267/labours-fair-pay-agreements-mark-biggest-industrial-relations-change-in-a-decade), here is my reply:

    Kirk, you and your ilk are right-wing fascists who have a very deep vested interest and emotional attachment to controlling all the power and wealth that circulates in New Zealand and as such are unable to fathom that the people who actually generate that wealth (the workers) deserve and are entitled to a fair share of it. I know you and your ilk will never accept this which is why legislation is necessary to force you into some form of compromise because without it, there exists either various forms of poverty and suffering or anarchy and war. I choose arbitration because I don’t like poverty and I don’t like war. Both scenarios lock ordinary people unlike you and your ilk into cycles of never ending destitution. Good riddance to your political bed fellows the National Party who only lie when they say they believe in improving the lives of ‘all New Zealanders’. Unfortunately many naive people actually believe that garbage that you and your cashed up ilk trot out election after election.

  34. Whispering Kate 37

    And another poor wretch feeling so desperate has set him/herself on fire outside Parliament at 3.50pm today – what’s that going to look like on the world stage. Oh well just an event old boy is what the citzenry of this country will be thinking. How many other poor souls are at this moment jumping off car parks or bridges, killing themselves in cars etc.

    This burning will not go down well in this country – how is this Government going to explain this – another nutter is what they will be thinking. People will just go about their lives as if though this is an ordinary event in the scheme of things.


    • Rosemary McDonald 37.1

      ” People will just go about their lives as if though this is an ordinary event in the scheme of things.”

      Some of us won’t.

      “How is this Government going to explain this?”

      They’ll say the person had ‘mental health issues’…..and move on..arseholes.

      In the meantime, over on Natrad, its all giggles with Jim, as per usual…

      • Rosemary McDonald 37.1.1

        From 2011….


        That time, remember,

        ” Labour MPs were outraged by Prime Minister John Key’s reaction, saying he shouted out “You should be ashamed of yourselves. That’s down to you.”

        Mr Goff said the clear implication from Mr Key was that he thought it was a Labour Party stunt.

        Mr Key had used the case of a “sad situation of a guy who has mental health problems and laid the blame for that on the Labour Party as if we had instigated the action. It’s a disgrace he could even have made that allegation”, Mr Goff said.”

  35. Muttonbird 38

    What a pathetic, attention-seeking little oink you are.

    [two week ban – weka]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [that ban was for blatant flaming. I’m guessing if I went back and had a look this would be a pattern of behaviour. I’ve made a note in the back end, so next time this comes up expect a lengthy ban – weka]

  36. the pigman 39

    Pardon the lack of compassion, but the man appears to have been an angry dad protesting against the family court. That might entitle us to draw some assumptions…

    Bet the FC judge is kicking themselves now! Should have given the guy day-to-day care of his kids! Clearly has the appropriate emotional equilibrium for parenting.

    But no, wronged by the family court, he killed himself instead. He did this for his kids because he loves them so much.

    Anyway, self-immolation occupies a special and sacred place in protest, and frankly it’s not the best way of showing the family court it has made the wrong decision.

    [I didn’t write the post so that people could express their bigotry, or their sarcasm. I did it to provide a space for people to talk about the event in the context of anger and compassion. I don’t want to spend the evening moderating. – weka]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  37. McFlock 40

    @weka – completely off-topic on the compassion thread, but nice use if the correct “rein”.

    Possibly the first time online I’ve seen it used instead of “reigning yourself in” or similar 🙂

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