Nicola Sturgeon’s resignation and Scottish Independence.

Written By: nickkelly - Date published: 9:19 am, February 16th, 2023 - 56 comments
Categories: Brexit, democratic participation, jacinda ardern, Nicola Sturgeon, Politics, referendum, uk politics - Tags: Boris Johnson, nick kelly, nicola sturgeon, scottish independence, scottish national party, SNP

Originally posted on Nick Kelly’s blog

The resignation of Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon today took many by surprise. Her leadership of the Scottish National Party (SNP) and Scotland since 2014 has seen support for her party, and the cause of independence, increase significantly. Whilst recent controversies have dented her support, were an election held tomorrow the SNP would be re-elected to Holyrood and would win the most Scottish Seats in a Westminster election.

Much like the recent resignation of Jacinda Ardern in New Zealand, Sturgeon’s resignation comes after many years of hate and vitriol from political opponents. This was alluded to in her resignation announcement:

The First Minister is never off duty, particularly in this day and age. There is virtually no privacy. Even ordinary stuff that most people take for granted, like going for a coffee with friends or for a walk on your own becomes very difficult. And the nature and form of modern political discourse means that there is a much greater intensity – dare I say it? – brutality to life as a politician than in years gone by. All in all, and actually for a long time without being apparent, it takes its toll on you and on those around you. And if that is true in the best of times, it has been more so in recent years. Leading this country through the Covid pandemic is by far the toughest thing I’ve done. It may well be the toughest thing I ever do. I certainly hope so. Now by no stretch of the imagination was my job the hardest in the country during that time. But the weight of responsibility was immense, and it’s only very recently, I think, that I’ve started to comprehend, let alone process, the physical and mental impact of it on me.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-64650792

In recent weeks, Sturgeon suffered political setbacks, which may have led to this decision today.

The first of these was the Supreme Court ruling in late November 2022 that a second referendum on Scottish Independence cannot be held, unless Westminster agrees to it. Controversially, Sturgeon’s response to this decision was that the next general election should be treated as a defacto referendum, something that SNP supporters are quite split on.

The second was the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill. This Bill reduced the legal age someone could apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate. It also removed the need for a medical diagnosis and evidence of having lived for two years in their acquired gender. The response of the Conservative Government in Westminster was to make an order under the Scotland Act 1998 preventing this Bill from proceeding to Royal Ascent.

This was shortly followed by the controversy of a Transgender woman in Scotland who had been convicted of double rape being assessed for a women’s prison. Whilst this was an isolated incident that was quickly addressed by the authorities, it was quickly used as a weapon to attack Sturgeon’s “woke agenda”.

The English press, and in particular the Tory Press, has run a concerted campaign of attacking Sturgeon and the SNP for years. Pro Conservative newspaper The Telegraph have predicted doom for the Scottish Independence movement many times. For example, former SNP leader Alex Salmond formed Alba and has even gone as far as to describe Scotland as a “failed state” under Sturgeon’s leadership.

Despite investigations of breaching the Ministerial Code, which Sturgeon was cleared of, many in the media talked up her imminent political demise prior to the 2021 Holyrood elections. Others claimed that if the SNP did not win an outright majority, it showed there was no real support for independence in Scotland. That the SNP and Scottish Greens, who also support independence, did gain a majority in the 2021 Scottish election is conveniently downplayed by much of the media, especially in England.

My previous post asked whether political leadership mattered. Nicola Sturgeon as SNP leader has been a strong advocate for independence, and this will undoubtedly have contributed to increased support for this cause.

Like all leaders, she will be remembered most of all for how she responded to events. Sturgeon was an outspoken critic when the British Government struggled to get a Brexit deal through the Commons, regularly reminding the world that Scotland had voted to remain in the EU. During the coronavirus pandemic, Sturgeon was viewed by many as a strong and competent leader, in stark contrast to the incompetent actions of UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his Conservative Government. And in 2022, when the Truss/Kwarteng Mini Budget did enormous harm to the economy, Sturgeon was characteristically forthright in her condemnation.

While Sturgeon’s strong leadership and vision have helped build support for Scottish Independence, the Conservative and Unionist Party’s arrogance and self-serving incompetence in government have greatly aided her in this. Under the Tories, many Scots have become convinced they would be better off leaving the United Kingdom.

Polls show varying levels of support for independence. Overall, support for independence is higher than in the 2014 referendum. Further, the SNP continue to dominate Scottish politics, and a new leader is unlikely to change this. Those who believe Sturgeon’s departure spells the end for the independence movement will likely soon be disappointed.

56 comments on “Nicola Sturgeon’s resignation and Scottish Independence. ”

Comments are now closed

That_guy 1

16 February 2023 at 9:55 am

I'm sorry but this is quite a slanted view of what happened. Although I agree that there is a valid case that politics is toxic and particularly toxic to women, Sturgeon did make some really, really bad calls.

IMHO Sturgeon didn't adhere to basic feminist principles and didn't listen to the concerns of women. In fact she was openly dismissive and insulting to people who were raising concerns about women's safety and boundaries. Women were simply saying that, while trans women are not sexual predators, sexual predators are sexual predators, and sexual predators.. predate. Open a loophole for them and they will walk through it and assault women and girls. And then, literally exactly that happened, after Sturgeon had implied that those making these points were motivated by transphobia and bigotry.

So, the lesson to learn here is: Progressive politicians should listen to women and keep to basic feminist principles around the rights of women to set boundaries. Stray from these principles and there will be consequences.
- Ghostwhowalksnz 1.1
  
  16 February 2023 at 12:36 pm
  
  'Boundaries'….are you a surveyor ? The rest of your safety mantra is just a repeat of exactly the same reasons used to discriminate against blacks in America.
  
  Safety…. in not letting blacks live in some neighbourhoods, sit in the same section of the bus or the cinema, separate schools . White Womens safety was especially used to to discriminate.
  
  Have you never seem the regular fights in women only bars, Ive seen it as a friend lived next door and they were regular after closing out the street, but "safety' you say comes from exclusion.
  - Visubversa 1.1.1
    
    16 February 2023 at 12:54 pm
    
    It is a pity that the history of the struggles of people of colour have been hijacked by activists from the Men's Rights movement who want to remove all the safeguarding for women and children (of all races) that have been built up over the last 200 years. Women worked hard for safe places for women on occasions where they are vulnerable – toilets, changing rooms, prisons etc. Women worked hard for affirmative action for women (of all races) to level the playing field in sports, employment, and other areas where women had been traditionally under represented, and where they still do not have equity.
    
    Opening those places and protections up to any man who opens his mouth and utters the magical incantation "I identify as" completely nullifies 200 years of struggle.
    
    It is no coincidence that the struggles of others, people of colour, same sex attracted people etc have been hijacked by men – mostly straight, mostly white and mostly well off, to try and present themselves as "marginalised and oppressed".
  - That_guy 1.1.2
    
    16 February 2023 at 12:57 pm
    
    I see. Thanks for explaining that because you & your mate saw a fight in a woman's bar, single-sex spaces are not, in fact, a reasonable response to a universal and consistent pattern of male violence directed at females for the entirety of human history, but is, in fact, apartheid.
    
    COOL STORY BRO. Better luck next time!
    - Ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.2.1
      
      16 February 2023 at 4:34 pm
      
      The womens bar was for what ever reason they like
      I only saw one fight , he lived a few doors away and said it was regular occurrence, its a while back, but like every time, as they were only running saturday nights.
      
      I didnt believe him until I saw it myself.
      
      Gaslighting instead of accepting a personal knowledge, does that work for you
      
      It was of course the point that women arent necessarily safe because men or trans women are excluded. Same would happen in womens prisons and from some online videos , women can be attacked by other women even in supermarkets.
      
      Put the word jew instead of trans and you are on the way to repeating history, especially since most trans arent visible and they can look like you
      
      When I was a teenager in 1960s my mother had women friends from before she married , there was a couple who visited regurarly where one partner was a women who dressed as a man. In my twenties I knew of male and female trans. I would say trans people have always been around and more often than even you would think. They dont need you telling them how to live
      - That_guy 1.1.2.1.1
        
        16 February 2023 at 4:46 pm
        
        That's twice you've implied I'm a nazi for having an opinion on women's rights. Plus an accusation of gaslighting.
        
        They dont need you telling them how to live
        
        Never said that, don't want to do that.
        
        I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm starting to think that you don't really have a coherent argument, because you throw accusations of various forms of bigotry around like confetti at a wedding.
        
        Because some women commit crime it's OK to throw away 200 years of progress on women's rights, to fail to listen to women? Are you seriously presenting that as an argument?
        
        Ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.2.1.1.1
        
        16 February 2023 at 5:24 pm
        
        Like I said the women can have a bar for what ever reason, they dont need your mansplaining about why . But feel free to gaslight me and mansplain other women
        
        The violence -outside, as I presume security made it safer inside- was regular.
        
        I can remember socially active woman I worked with who said to me she went regularly to gay bars ( she wasnt gay) that were mostly men. I presume the bar didnt have a gender identity exclusion for a safe place
        
        Excluding trans women doesnt make 'women safe'- so cut the bullshit reasons from others about 'safety', as its bigotry in disguise.
        
        weka …
        
        16 February 2023 at 5:32 pm
        
        Excluding trans women doesnt make 'women safe'-
        
        It makes women safer. This is why we have single sex spaces (one of the reasons). This is why Sturgeon got herself into such a mess, because everyone knows that putting a rapist in a women's prison is wrong. Because it's dangerous.
        
        We know that women have been raped in prison by males who self ID as women. It's pretty obvious that if those males hadn't been able to self ID into a women's prison, the women would have been safer. Your assertion is a nonsense.
        
        Ghostwhowalksnz …
        
        16 February 2023 at 5:58 pm
        
        Prisons are places which by definition hold violent people . Its a prison security failure that a known violent person was able to harm others.
        
        It happens all the time in every prison , for men or women.
        
        Women are sent to prison for acts of violence too , not just trans women. Even if you want womens prisons to exclude trans women – even if they will suffer horrific violence in mens prisons, that wont stop violence in womens prisons will it. So your claims about exclusions from womens prisons arent based on reality, just based on bigoty
        
        But back to Scotland
        
        "Trans people have been able to apply for legal gender recognition through a Gender Recognition Certificate since 2004. Not all trans people have a GRC and no-one is required to have one.
        
        Removing the current requirement under the Gender Recognition Act 2004 for applications to have evidence of a diagnosis of gender dysphoria aligns with international best practice and the consensus view of United Nations Human Rights bodies."
        
        https://www.gov.scot/news/gender-recognition-reform-bill-passed/
        
        SPC …
        
        16 February 2023 at 6:22 pm
        
        Sure, no one is required to …
        
        But such legal recognition should be expected before any right of access to woman only spaces (without such right it is based on acceptance).
        
        Even under self ID rules, some applications must have failed this test
        
        Applicants must make a statutory declaration that they have lived in the acquired gender for at least three months before applying …
        
        Making a false application will carry a maximum penalty of imprisonment for up to two years or an unlimited fine or both. There is also provision in the Bill for a person with interest such as the Registrar General to make an application to the sheriff on the grounds an application was fraudulent.
        
        https://www.gov.scot/news/gender-recognition-reform-bill-passed/
        
        But presumably those doing so while on charge knew there was not much risk of a longer sentence …
        
        SPC …
        
        16 February 2023 at 6:32 pm
        
        international best practice and the consensus view of United Nations Human Rights bodies.
        
        How was this international best practice determined and which UN Human Rights bodies reached this consensus?
        
        weka …
        
        16 February 2023 at 10:26 pm
        
        Prisons are places which by definition hold violent people . Its a prison security failure that a known violent person was able to harm others.
        
        It happens all the time in every prison , for men or women.
        
        Women are sent to prison for acts of violence too , not just trans women. Even if you want womens prisons to exclude trans women – even if they will suffer horrific violence in mens prisons, that wont stop violence in womens prisons will it. So your claims about exclusions from womens prisons arent based on reality, just based on bigoty
        
        This is basically an argument that says because some women are violent, we should let all women be at risk of being raped and some women be raped.
        
        (and what follows is, women already get raped, so why does it matter if the risk is increased?).
        
        In the UK, there are many women in prison for non-violent offences. Women get incarcerated for different reasons than men. It's misleading to suggesting that both men and women are violent as if they are the same problem and dynamic.
        
        It's disingenous af to say that the only two choices are TW in women's prisons, or TW can suffer violence in men's prisons. You are saying two things here. One is that resolving male violence against TW should include increasing the risk of male violence against women. Two is that creating specialist spaces for vulnerable males in prison isn't relevant here, nor is stopping male violence.
        
        This is why gender ideology is insidious and dangerous. It seeks gender neutrality and thus removes the ability of women to name male violence and have it addressed. Which is exactly what you are trying to do here. Doesn't work thoughy, because there are too many gender critical people here who have heard all the genderist talking points before.
      - weka 1.1.2.1.2
        
        16 February 2023 at 5:33 pm
        
        It was of course the point that women arent necessarily safe because men or trans women are excluded. Same would happen in womens prisons and from some online videos , women can be attacked by other women even in supermarkets.
        
        You know who else runs the line that women are violent too? Men's Rights Activists aka misogynists. There's a reason for this. It's a way of minimising male violence against women, and making it harder for women to talk about and get society to address.
  - weka 1.1.3
    
    16 February 2023 at 5:27 pm
    
    'Boundaries'….are you a surveyor ? The rest of your safety mantra is just a repeat of exactly the same reasons used to discriminate against blacks in America.
    
    Boundaries in this context is about things like consent. We are well familiar with arguments to remove women's boundaries. Lesbians being told they should like girl dick is not too far from redneck men saying lesbians just need a good shag. Anyone who argues against women's right to boundaries is sexist and probably misogynistic.
    
    The racism argument is specious. No-one is saying trans women can't take full part in society. What TW, or more correctly, genderists, can't do is remove women's rights, language, single sex spaces.
    
    I never see gender ideologists explaining why trans people are allowed sovereignty but women aren't. New misogyny same as the old.
  - roblogic 1.1.4
    
    16 February 2023 at 6:20 pm
    
    Self-ID means that alongside the harmless trans person, may be a narcissistic male with sexual paraphilia that predates upon women. It means that girls are being slowly sidelined from sports by cowardly boys who don't want to compete in their own sex class. It means women are not allowed to assemble or speak about issues that affect them due to their female bodies. It means that children are taught they might be born in the wrong body and the solution is permanent sterilisation and disfigurement, rather than learning to accept their embodied selves. It means that social contagion spread like wildfire on social media and gen Z are so addicted to social media fantasies that anyone attempting to teach them anything real is ostracised as a bigot and has their life work symbolically burned.
    
    It's a book burning anti science cult clothed in rainbow colours, speaking the language of human rights, but its actions betray a deep misogyny and intolerance.
    - SPC 1.1.4.1
      
      16 February 2023 at 6:52 pm
      
      Predate, means prior to, or before. Do you mean predicate, which might infer a thought crime (whether narcissism, or sexual paraphilia) before an actual one (as in lesser before greater) of violence?
      
      Self ID in sports is more a matter of opportunism (like profiteering by raising rents after the earthquake in Christchurch or in future weeks/months in the NI) when it comes to scholarships or professional events.
      
      Self ID does not apply with children, though can be made known in schools and online to them – it is a function of the health system to prevent this leading to harm.
      - roblogic 1.1.4.1.1
        
        16 February 2023 at 7:07 pm
        
        "Predate" has a specialised meaning in biology which means "to prey upon" another species. (Second definition in the link)
        
        Opportunism is a good word too.
  - roblogic 1.1.5
    
    16 February 2023 at 9:52 pm
    
    DARVO
    
    https://twitter.com/Theo_TJ_Jordan/status/1621230542040563713?s=20
Mike the Lefty 2

16 February 2023 at 10:03 am

It could be as simple as a sizeable section of humankind being unable to accept that a female leader can be as good as, or better than, a male leader.
- weka 2.1
  
  16 February 2023 at 10:49 am
  
  doubt it. She has support for a long time until now. What changed? She threw women under the bus and Scots didn't like it.
- hetzer 2.2
  
  16 February 2023 at 4:44 pm
  
  Or simply shes a fucking idiot. Unable to see that a man in a frock who rapes a woman is simply a man that rapes a woman. Fortunately his claims of self identication as a woman deserves the guffaws of incredulity it deserves.
  - weka 2.2.1
    
    16 February 2023 at 5:34 pm
    
    or a man who rapes two women and then puts on a frock several years later. Still just a man who is a violent misogynist.
    - hetzer 2.2.1.1
      
      16 February 2023 at 5:41 pm
      
      Pretty much. The whole conversation reminds me of the fable about the Emperor with no clothes and the little girl who calls out " but he has no clothes on!" How did the left tie itself into these ridiculous knots?
SPC 3

16 February 2023 at 10:10 am

While the SNP will do OK in the next election, they will have the opportunity to re-focus, informed by this polling.

https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,lord-ashcroft-poll-reveals-gulf-between-scottish-government-and-voters-on-independence-and-gender-reforms
- Visubversa 3.1
  
  16 February 2023 at 10:17 am
  
  Yep – putting male bodied rapists in women's prisons was not popular with the Scottish electorate. Creating a biological fiction and then cementing that as a legal fiction by permitting any man to be legally a woman by the simple use of a Statutory Declaration is not popular with any electorate that actually knows that it is happening.
  - roy cartland 3.1.1
    
    16 February 2023 at 10:36 am
    
    It's a religious issue. If you have a view that is different to established science (albeit with all its warts), it's religion. Enshrining these beliefs in law is effectively pushing someone else's religion on others.
    
    For eg, if enough of us believe the moon should only be referred to as 'your great cheesiness', and start cancelling and hounding those who disagree, enough so that it becomes law, people would be similarly opposed. And that would be just as bad for the benign moon-cheese adherents as the science-minded.
    - That_guy 3.1.1.1
      
      16 February 2023 at 10:44 am
      
      The moon is made of cheese, you turophobic nazi! Creamy mozzarella, if you're interested.
      - roy cartland 3.1.1.1.1
        
        16 February 2023 at 10:45 am
        
        And you not only have to demonstrate that you believe it, but actually believe it, and I'll be watching and assessing.
        
        weka 3.1.1.1.1.1
        
        16 February 2023 at 11:04 am
        
        watching Sturgeon try and explain her thinking about the rapist and whether he was a man or a woman is one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen from a left wing politician.
  - left for dead 3.1.2
    
    16 February 2023 at 3:31 pm
    
    This was for Visubversa, but weka can have one to.
weka 4

16 February 2023 at 10:48 am

This was shortly followed by the controversy of a Transgender woman in Scotland who had been convicted of double rape being assessed for a women’s prison. Whilst this was an isolated incident that was quickly addressed by the authorities, it was quickly used as a weapon to attack Sturgeon’s “woke agenda”.

I'm sure others will address this too, but here's my quick take.

The rapist is a man, who started self IDing as a transwoman while on remand. It's unlikely he is trans, but is instead working the system that Sturgeon's government designed and that Sturgeon vehemently advocated for and defended. That system allows any man to say he is a woman at any time and must then be treated as a woman.

Once the news broke that a double rapist was rorting the badly designed law, as predicted, and being put in a women's prison, and as has already happened in other places including leading to the rape and assault of women inmates, the general public in Scotland went wtaf, and SNP's polling started to drop. That's why Sturgeon has resigned now.

Hoisted by her own petard comes to mind, especially as she called gender critical feminists who raised concerns bigots. There were also MPs who tried to get ammendments to the self ID law, and SNP pushed through without them.

The connection with the UK blocking the Scottish law is more complex, but follows a similar pattern. Women stood up and said no, they fought a long and hard battle on this, the general public got on board. The Tories had the sense to back off from Self ID.

I have no doubt that Sturgeon got similar kinds of abuse in general that Arden did. I also think that apart from the self ID position she was a good politician. But she fucked up majorly, in large part because she (and many in the SNP) refused to listen to the concerns of people about self-ID, including many feminists with decades long experience in working to end male violence.

And because it will come up, not all TW are rapists, no-one is saying they are. We are saying they are male and carry the same degree of risk as other males. The solution to the prison issue is to build prisons for vulnerable male prisoners, use the screen process to decide who goes there, and stop making it women's problem. Also, address male violence.
- roy cartland 4.1
  
  16 February 2023 at 11:05 am
  
  Tautoko.
  
  Thanks Weka for the clarity. As a bloke, I know what we're capable of; and if there's one thing we love (yes yes, collectively, #notallmen# etc etc), it's manspreading all over others' spaces. For our advantage.
  
  The argument has been muddied to lump in trans people with those who say they are – the piss-takers, grifters and opportunists. Self-ID in these religious terms being put into law, leads to abuse of that law – like you say, as predicted.
  
  That's just bad for all groups, right?
  - That_guy 4.1.1
    
    16 February 2023 at 11:13 am
    
    Yep, men mansplaining to women what a woman is, it's gold-medal mansplaining. I don't know if we will ever be able to top that. I'm sure some men will try though!
    - Ghostwhowalksnz 4.1.1.1
      
      16 February 2023 at 11:40 am
      
      Its the feminists, with help from their US right wing supporters who are de-ligitimising 'women who are different'
      
      And no , gender isnt decided by the sexual organs at birth
      
      Remember those who say someone isnt 'black enough or maori enough', yep its the same exclusion
      - That_guy 4.1.1.1.1
        
        16 February 2023 at 11:48 am
        
        I'm sure some men will try though!
        
        Right on cue…
      - roy cartland 4.1.1.1.2
        
        16 February 2023 at 12:04 pm
        
        Those that do have a gender are fine. Those that think them selves a different or diversengender are fine. Those that identify as a particular gender are fine.
        
        Those that try to make the argument a scientific one, enshrine it in law, then beat others for not accepting it, are not fine; and they open the door to the kind of appalling piss-takery mentioned.
        
        Since you mentioned Maori-ness, I've seen school Maori classes identify students' iwi either by Ngati-[whatever-traditional-iwi], or Ngati-[this-school's-marae]. This shows that the old 'race-based' bullshit of Brash et al is on the way out, and good riddance.
      - Visubversa 4.1.1.1.3
        
        16 February 2023 at 12:59 pm
        
        Same dishonesty as the previous post. Your sex is determined at conception and is with you all your life. In humans it is bi-modal and immutable. Gender is whatever you say it is – your gendered soul shares a room in your head with your immortal soul. You are free to believe in a gendered soul, but that is an ideology, and we have stopped making law on the basis of belief systems.
        
        Ghostwhowalksnz 4.1.1.1.3.1
        
        16 February 2023 at 2:07 pm
        
        The medical evidence is clear, you are talking rot. There is a small % at birth that arent entirely binary
        
        What design and colour emblem do you think non binary people should wear on their clothing so you and your ilk arent confused and so they can be treated differently
        
        That_guy …
        
        16 February 2023 at 2:20 pm
        
        The existence of people with DSDs (which absolutely nobody is disputing) is not a reason to throw away 200 years of progress in women's rights, especially when many people with DSDs do not identify as trans (and usually resent being dragged into the debate) and the overwhelming majority of trans people do not have DSDs.
        
        So far in this discussion you've implied that people standing up for the rights of women are 1) just the same as supporters of Apartheid or Jim Crow, and 2) Nazis.
        
        Do better, please.
        
        Visubversa …
        
        16 February 2023 at 3:46 pm
        
        It is called "transperbole". It is what you do when you don't actually have an arguement that will hold up under any sort of examination.
        
        Visubversa …
        
        16 February 2023 at 3:45 pm
        
        People with DSDs that are fertile – and many are not, produce either sperm or eggs. There are no intermediate gametes. Absolutely binary.
        
        Ghostwhowalksnz …
        
        17 February 2023 at 1:12 pm
        
        You dont have a medical or human rights valid arguments .
        
        Its just misinformation that you peddle – your'e a utopian fallopian
        
        roy cartland …
        
        16 February 2023 at 4:23 pm
        
        Sorry, I'm having trouble making this point clearly.
        
        Those people you speak of are on our side. Those who would take the piss, like the rapist-opportunist guy, are not. Letting any old monster self-ID, then arguing for him to be able to do so in law, hurts that small % as well.
Dean Reynolds 5

16 February 2023 at 11:14 am

If Scotland wants independance, they have to take. The historical precedent is the Irish Nationalist (Sinn Fein) MP's who, after the 1919 UK election, refused to take their seats in the Westminister House of Commons, but instead, set up an independant government, The Dial, in Dublin. What followed was 3 years of brutality, instigated by Churchill & his Black & Tans, but the Irish Free State, (later the Irish Republic) was established in 1922.

If the SNP followed this precedent & simply declared unilateral independance, it's unlikely that even the feral Tories would send tanks across the Scottish border to enforce their will on the Scots.

The major challenge for the SNP is to persuade the Scots that they can survive economically without English subsidies. Soft loans & subsidies from the EU & the 5 Scandi countries would help the transition to financial & political independance for Scotland. England is the sick man of Europe – Scottish independance is well overdue.
- Ghostwhowalksnz 5.1
  
  16 February 2023 at 11:35 am
  
  After the Free State in 1922 was followed by a brutal civil war between Sinn Fein and the pro Treaty government.
  
  Around 70 or so people were executed mostly without trial ( some by firing squad) by the Free State government , including some politicians already in jail when the war began.
  
  Churchill wasnt really directly involved in the earlier pre treaty war. The Cabinet minister who was the responsible for Irish policy and the direction of the military campaign was the Chief Secretary for Ireland who since around 1800 was a a UK MP and sat in Cabinet in London. Macpherson and Greenwood were those more directly responsible
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Secretary_for_Ireland
  - Dean Reynolds 5.1.1
    
    16 February 2023 at 2:08 pm
    
    Ghost, nothing you say alters my basic premise that the English establishment will never grant independance to Scotland. If the Scots want their independance, they'll have to unilateraly take it, just like Sinn Fein did.
    - Ghostwhowalksnz 5.1.1.1
      
      17 February 2023 at 1:10 pm
      
      The lost referendum prevented Scottish independence before . Are you saying the British establishment didnt give the people the choice. Also Blair gave Scotland a devolved self government , something Ireland was supposed to get but never did
      
      The SNP leader Salmon resigned because of the failure of SNP to convince the majority
      
      Ireland had two internal wars to get its independence and then had a partition
      
      Its not like Ukraine , they dont need tanks to remove what the British would see as an illegal government, but then you like that sort of boys own stuff
- SPC 5.2
  
  16 February 2023 at 11:36 am
  
  More likely is that SNP has to convince England of this course
  1. an English parliament, so there is a federal Commons (equal nations within the UK of the British Isles)
  2. after the union of N Ireland with Eire, England (and Wales) and Scotland as the United Kingdoms of Britain.
  3. after the end of monarchy, the option of joining the EU as separate nations (the issue will be loss of independent currency).
  - Ghostwhowalksnz 5.2.1
    
    16 February 2023 at 11:51 am
    
    SNP long ago ditched their original aim of a republic. At the first referendum they wanted to keep the Queen, the BBC, the NHS and the pound !
    
    Forget the idea of Scotland joining the EU
    - SPC 5.2.1.1
      
      16 February 2023 at 3:54 pm
      
      The two obstacles are the ties of island monarchy and currency. Sans one, it is then the matter of the other.
Ghostwhowalksnz 6

16 February 2023 at 11:25 am

SNP and Greens didnt win a majority of votes at the 2021 election . Yes they had a majority of seats , despite Scotland having MMP they allocate the party vote by regions which are a form of gerrymander

Party vote results SNP 40.35% and Greens 8.12% The turnout would be considered low by NX standards 63.5%

The SNP party vote fell in each region , except Highlands

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Scottish_Parliament_election
- nickkelly 6.1
  
  16 February 2023 at 1:34 pm
  
  Correct, they won a majority of seats.
roblogic 7

16 February 2023 at 11:36 am

The SNP squandered an opportunity to be a real progressive alternative to moribund neoliberal Labour. But instead of dealing with the hard problems of infrastructure and material inequality, Sturgeon went for optics and PR to try and appease the middle class twitterati. The British working class has no representation.
- Ghostwhowalksnz 7.1
  
  16 February 2023 at 11:46 am
  
  The SNP is now a middle class party- look at who is elected – professionals, university educated , plus if they were previously working class they were now business owners.
  
  The radical agenda was ditched before they decided to win power so good luck trying reinvent history.
Mike the Lefty 8

16 February 2023 at 11:37 am

To me the Scottish system seems more like SMP than MMP.

SMP has been sometimes likened to a "winners bonus" system, I'm glad we don't have it here.
- Ghostwhowalksnz 8.1
  
  16 February 2023 at 12:21 pm
  
  We do have it here. Mps are elected some from electorates and some from party lists, so its MMP – mixed member proportional.
  
  What they do differently is its flaw to not being fully proportional. The electorates and lists are part of 8 'self contained' regions. Which should make sense but they wanted each region to have the same numbers of electorates and List seats
  
  The SNP essentially has overhangs when it wins all/almost all the seats in a region, which is most of the 8.