On the whining and treason of David Seymour

Written By: - Date published: 10:27 am, November 20th, 2024 - 51 comments
Categories: act, david seymour, Politics, treaty settlements - Tags:

In recent days, David Seymour has been whining that no-one is seriously debating his stupid little bill to supposedly try to redefine what the Treaty of Waitangi means. The problem is that it is not the Treaty of Waitangi that this bill attacks. It is the constitutional arrangements of this country. The bill is essentially treasonous.

The bill attempts to directly negate and sideline one of the three branches of the Crown – the Courts. It also attempts to diminish the efficacy of our representative government of Parliament, by making it subject to PR manipulable referendums. The overall effect is to increase the power of the Executive and make it easier to form a dictatorial Executive. Moreover it does so by overthrowing by redefinition of the foundation document that formed our countries legal basis.

At one level it is a completely pointless bill that trades on basic racism and rapacious greed. The racist or rapacious view would require that I’d believe that Seymour and his supporters simply doesn’t understand our constitution.

That is possible. Neither Seymour nor any Act supporter have ever impressed me with their intelligence or wide-ranging level of deep knowledge. I tend to regard them as simpletons. I have no idea if this is simply ignorance, dumb laziness or just deliberate maliciousness. But I also really don’t care. The motivations are irrelevant in treason. It is only the cations that count.

This isn’t a debate about the treaty. After reading the bill, I’m more likely to start arming myself with semi-automatic weapons (easily to upgrade my more familiar fully-automatic weapons) to deal with the inevitable revolt that will be triggered by a undeclared constitutional takeover. Because the select committee would start throwing out my arguments about this bill because they don’t deal with the words of the bill. They deal with its obvious intent.

The Courts are a crucial part of our constitutional setup because they constrain the rapacious stupidity that has so often a feature of of the Executive and Parliament branches since 1840.

The treaty wasn’t between “new zealanders” and the NZ Parliament or even the British Parliament of 1840. It was between the Crown and Māori. Something like 98% of ‘new zealanders’ in 1839 and 1840 were Māori, and Māori were the ones who signed a treaty with the British Crown in the form of Queen Victoria.

The treaty wasn’t presented in written English to the vast majority of those who signed it. It was presented in spoken Māori, probably in a variety of dialects. The written English version was a translation device and has, as the courts have pointed out many times, should not been regarded as legally being the treaty as signed and agreed to.

If Seymour was serious about this stupid and ignorant bill, then he would have at least written in it in Te Reo – one of our official languages rather than the on-official de facto language of our kiwi pidgin English variant. The treaty was signed in two versions, English and Māori, with different meanings for the words used in each. Around 500 Māori signed the Māori version, while only 39 signed the English version. It clearly wasn’t a treaty made in English. But I digress…

Constitutionally we still operate under the same Crown as in 1840. The NZ Parliament is a subsidiary entity of it. They exist alongside of other Crown entities like the Courts, and a Executive that operate the military, police, customs, and a variety of other Crown organisations. Parliament may finance those other two branches, but they do not operate nor do they control them.

For the fools who keep stating that the NZ Parliament is ‘sovereign’, this separation of the Crown powers is deliberate. There is a simplified explanation at justice “New Zealand’s constitutional system“, that should be clear to even the most ignorant. The concept of ‘The Crown’ is discussed in this video by Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Palmer and Rt Hon Dame Sian Elias who probably know it better than most. Even the simpletons who support Act in this bill should be vaguely able to understand the subtleties of the way that the Crown runs New Zealand after they get through this primer.

The courts, whom David Seymour seems to want to pretend have been ‘making law’ independent of the NZ Parliament, have in fact been doing their job.

As a branch of the Crown powers, they balance the legislation of parliament against other Crown legal obligations, like treaties, common law, international law, and other legislation. If Parliament tries to or has previously usurped the role of the Crown and its legal obligations through legislation, then the courts will eventually correct that. The treaty settlement process since the 1970s has been forced by the courts to correct the previous stupidities where rapacious servants of the Crown like governors and parliament have used unlawful means to seize property and resources in violation of the obligations of the Crown.

These have repeatably wound up in the courts who have then pointed out the legal flaws in their judgements. The Executive ministers of the Crown (ie not members of parliament) have then had to negotiate settlements primarily to ensure that the courts did not make the settlements in accordance with the judgements.

The problem that probable rapacious carpetbaggers like David Seymour and the Act parties clearly have not dealt with in this daft legislation is that they are clearly trying to rewrite an agreement made between the Crown and Māori. However the wording of the treaty is not something that is subject to rewriting by the NZ Parliament. As an equivalent, this is like trying to rewrite the laws and rules that govern warfare that have been built up over the centuries between nations. Or for the NZ Parliament to try to redefine the UN charter.

It is an attempted usurpation by Parliament of something that they have no say over. Not only of the Treaty of Waitangi, but also any other legal obligations that have previously been made by the Crown.

In effect it transfers all powers to the Executive and away from the Courts. This is made explicit in section 6 of the Principles of Treaty of Waitangi Bill, principle 1 when you look at the primary statement…

The Executive Government of New Zealand has full power to govern, and the Parliament of New Zealand has full power to make laws […]

The qualifications to that statement merely extend the scope to potentially cover the whole world and everyone in it. Which is ridiculous.

But in effect it is the Executive branch of government, trying to use another branch – the NZ Parliament, to restrict the third branch, the Courts from performing oversight of the pre-existing or inherent legal obligations that currently restrict the Executive.

If I wanted a dictatorship like Seymour and his backer so obviously would like, then this is exactly the way that I’d proceed down to set it up.

Sideline the courts and make them ineffectual at balancing pre-existing obligations. Make our representative democracy in parliament completely subject to referendums that are easy to manipulate by PR campaigns and hate speech that Act and similar pre-paid subsidiaries puppets like the Taxpayers union and the ‘free speech’ hand-pieces.

This is an explicit attempt to remove the balance of powers, and to remove the courts from overseeing any injustices.

What is pretty obvious from the whining of Seymour is that the treasonous prick simply isn’t listening and is unlikely to ever do so.

Time to start thinking about getting a gun license. Or to build a well-equipped workshop. Just in case. Not a time to engage with a parliament and executive who are overstepping their apportioned powers, again extending the New Zealand land wars.

My family have mostly been in NZ shortly before or soon after the signing of the Treaty. I really dislike that my Māori cousins feel the need to live in Australia, because the racism is way less hypocritical there. I’m a reluctant socialist, volunteered for our military, a well-paid geek, and a well-educated activist in my limited spare time. I live in NZ because I have long since made a commitment to do so. No idiot like Seymour will drive me out.

51 comments on “On the whining and treason of David Seymour ”

  1. mike 1
    20 November 2024 at 11:14 am

    The six month select committee process is simply a six month window for corporates to advertise pro bill propaganda, leveraging off the Three Waters stunt they paid for a year or so back.

    It's only Te Triti o Waitangi that protects us all from corporate dictatorship.

    Reply
    • lprent 1.1
      20 November 2024 at 11:50 am

      That was pretty much my impression. It was designed to waste as much time as was required for a long PR campaign. Also carefully muffled by running over Xmas.

      The challenge haka in Parliament was a direct an appropriate answer. The hikoi is also an effective answer.

      I wanted to point out exactly how I felt as a non-Maori military geek exactly what I thought of the underlying presumption of the bill, how it affects our core constitutional arrangements and where I think that path is destined to lead towards.

      Reply
    • Ed1 1.2
      20 November 2024 at 2:54 pm

      Luxon is now claiming that the six month Select Committee was also part of the coalition agreement, but the copy of the ACT/Nat agreement on the National Party website does not mention the time to be given for Select Committee. Is Luxon lying? Should he be asked whether there are other parts of coalition agreements that have not been published, or is this just a requirement placed on him by his boss David Seymour?

      Reply
      • Craig H 1.2.1
        20 November 2024 at 5:23 pm

        Six months is the standard time frame to deliver the select committee report. I don't like the Bill at all, but would suggest since the norm is six months, the agreement would only record time frames outside the norm.

        Reply
  2. Adrian 2
    20 November 2024 at 11:46 am

    Thanks LPrent, that will be the basis for my submission. Plus a little "follow the money "dig about who is most likely to benefit from another deceptive land grab.

    Reply
  3. Dennis Frank 3
    20 November 2024 at 11:48 am

    Yeah, pretty much how I see the situation except I'm not into getting a gun. smiley

    Seymour Principle 1: The Government of New Zealand has full power to govern, and Parliament has full power to make laws. They do so in the best interests of everyone, and in accordance with the rule of law and the maintenance of a free and democratic society. https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/sc/make-a-submission/document/54SCJUST_SCF_227E6D0B-E632-42EB-CFFE-08DCFEB826C6/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-bill

    His first sentence is an executive governance principle that appears to tell us what we already know, yet fails to ground it in the paramount principle of state sovereignty – which is how international law & the UN operate. Govt, parliament & the state are 3 different things in constitutional law yet he conflates them into 1 power principle. That misleads the public, right? Incorrect, inaccurate, mark it maybe 2 out of 10.

    His second sentence is even more wacko. Pure idealism. Reality has always bound the performance of govt & parlt into a cage, where such aspirations are confined by party loyalty and conformity to minority interests. Anyone who disagrees, your homework is to list all the occasions National and Labour agreed to act in solidarity with our common interests. Bet you can't.

    So when you see a politician trying to change reality and being unable to get the basics right, you ain't far away from seeing them establish a reputation for incompetence.

    Reply
    • lprent 3.1
      20 November 2024 at 12:17 pm

      …except I'm not into getting a gun.

      I grew up using them as a tool and never for just fun, both on farms and in the military. They are a dangerous tool, like a other tools like having a working knowledge of chemistry and physics. I've also done 7.5 years of my civilian working life building military software to train soldiers how to use weapons more effectively. I don't make that statement lightly.

      Govt, parliament & the state are 3 different things in constitutional law yet he conflates them into 1 power principle.

      And manages to miss the crucial role of the local and international legal systems completely. That has to have been deliberate and identifies him as either malicious danger to our society or the complete idiot who is being a danger to our society.

      That triggers my Smith's Dream / Sleeping Dogs responses that, in part, was caused me to volunteer for the military in the first place. Along with reading a lot of military and social history that identified the complete folly of being a untrained pacifist.

      So when you see a politician trying to change reality and being unable to get the basics right, you ain't far away from seeing them establish a reputation for incompetence.

      Still uncertain if it is incompetence or carefully deliberate and trying to mask as incompetence. The displayed Seymour pattern at present could go either way.

      If you think about almost any dictatorial pattern (apart from a few like Lenin), there are long periods of perceived incompetence before the pattern morphs into something more dangerous. I remember having a look at press treatment of completely unsane arseholes like Hitler or Mussolini in the 1920s and 1930s.

      Reply
      • Incognito 3.1.1
        20 November 2024 at 12:53 pm

        No matter how you apply Hanlon’s razor, the result is a clean shave 😉

        All one needs is a large enough group of people who prefer to think less critically about their own actions and consequences thereof [for others]. In other words, one doesn’t need an evil leader or evil people for evil deeds to occur [cf. Hanah Arendt].

        Reply
  4. Christopher Randal 4
    20 November 2024 at 12:46 pm

    My question is: Is it possible to petition King Charles III to dissolve Parliament and, if so, how likely is he to do it?

    Reply
    • lprent 4.1
      20 November 2024 at 1:32 pm

      Anyone can petition for it. Not likely to do so, unless urged to do so by the Governor-General and that would require distinct extant cause (like being able to pass a budget or going to war). But it is a really high bar.

      That would really cause a constitutional crisis.

      It’d be more likely if presented with legislation passed by parliament that violates the obligations of the monarchy by effectively repudiating the Treaty. That impinges directly on the authority of the monarchy and Crown.

      Reply
      • Craig H 4.1.1
        20 November 2024 at 5:26 pm

        While I don't actually expect the Bill to be enacted, I have also been wondering whether this would be one of the few legitimate times to use the reserve power of refusing assent.

        Reply
    • Betty Bopper 4.2
      22 November 2024 at 12:33 pm

      It seems to me that this may be the reason King Charles cancelled his visit to NZ in October. I'm not sure he should have – it would have been good for Parliament and our PM to be reminded of the authority of the Crown in this instance and it would have been good for the King to meet up with the Maori Queen and all the photo ops would have reassured many – that this agreement means something.

      It could all have been done over cups of tea – the royal presence in optics and behind closed doors would have been positive – but maybe the King was concerned that a move to become a republic would ensue…or embarassing speeches and comments…like the family rcvd in Bermuda. Bit of a mystery as to why …any thoughts?

      Reply
  5. Tiger Mountain 5
    20 November 2024 at 12:54 pm

    A thought provoking piece by lprent. Seymour and Act did not just dream this stuff up, they have an ideological support system via Atlas and local sycophants like the Tax Payers Union and Groundswell. They want disruption one way or another–ultimately in the service of capital. Māori intellectual property rights, dominion and claims over wai and whenua is a major roadblock to big paydays for various corporates.

    Examples are there in multiple countries as to what can happen in near and actual civil war situations. January 6 attempted coup in the US showed what the nutters and reactionaries can do–and it may get much worse now.

    A lot of us are not keen on guns, I learned to use and clean a single barrel shot gun with a small magazine, at 10 years of age! thanks to my brother whose school ran Military Training as some did in the 60s. I just used to scare Pheasants in the hedgerow and blast a few rabbits, which were turned into pies…would not do it now unless it really turns bad, but lprent is right to be concerned. In the North I have always thought that the gunslingers will be looking for the likes of me before they ever go for the Torys.

    As I say to an old friend who has a metal cabinet full of guns (he handed some in)…you will run out of ammo eventually mate…

    Reply
  6. higherstandard 6
    20 November 2024 at 12:57 pm

    I feel quite agnostic about the "debate" over Te Tiriti.

    I do, however, believe that changes to any contractual agreement (and let's accept it is a contractual arrangement) can only be made by consent of the parties to that agreement.

    In this case consent of Maori and the Crown.

    No single party, parliament or nation through a referendum can unilaterally change that agreement.

    That being I can't see what the fuss is about when the bill will be voted down early next year.

    Reply
    • Incognito 6.1
      20 November 2024 at 1:15 pm

      What I can’t understand is that you’ve been commenting here on a political blog site for more than 16 years and make that comment without a hint of irony and using that user handle!?

      You seem to be generally ‘agnostic’, politically speaking, or you’re simply trolling.

      Reply
    • lprent 6.2
      20 November 2024 at 1:19 pm

      That being I can’t see what the fuss is about when the bill will be voted down early next year.

      The fuss is what probably what will cause it to be voted down. Since National has gotten into the routine of breaking promises, especially over the last year on matters like their definition of front-facing vs back-office, I’m not really interested in trusting them.

      Plus of course, it should not only need to be voted down. It needs to definitely opposed and staked down. This was repeats the main campaign of 2015 with the disgusting race baiting by Don Brash on the same topic. Repeated attempts by him (Hobsons choice) and Act to raise similar race baiting in damn near every election since.

      I’m tired of it popping up like Shane Jones wanking his ego in politics. I am tired of bloody kiwi Republicans who cannot seem to define a position of the treaty in any future constitutional relationships. I have gotten to the point where I am now a firm monarchist. Not because I like being in the monarchy. But because I can’t see a republic being able to work in NZ because of the dickhead racists and their puppets.

      Reply
      • higherstandard 6.2.1
        20 November 2024 at 1:56 pm

        The fuss isn't what will cause it to be voted down, both of the other parties, which are part of the current government, have been explicit from day one that they won't support it past its first reading.

        Reply
        • lprent 6.2.1.1
          20 November 2024 at 2:43 pm

          Sure – but that won’t stop this stupidity being restarted year after year, election after election.

          It isn’t like Maori are getting ‘special’ privileges.

          They are seeking redress for past unlawful breaches all the way back to the illegal shit-show that the British government did in the 1840s and 1850s after they took over the NZ Land Company Nelson 1838 claims and then breached their own small commitments about setting a tenth of the land aside for the ‘natives’.

          Damn near everything else has been either funded by iwi or has been a result of internal investigations by organisations about how to diminish obvious inequities. Which would be helped if the damn government stopped short-changing valid claims and the Iwi could fund their own scholarship positions or provide well-funded health services (eg like Ngāti Whātua-o-Ōrākei is trying to do).

          I really have come to despise whinging arseholes like Seymour or Brash. Arrogant racist fuckwits like that are why I have to go to Sydney to see my Maori cousins.

          Reply
          • James Simpson 6.2.1.1.1
            20 November 2024 at 5:36 pm

            but that won’t stop this stupidity being restarted year after year

            100%. This will energise Seymour and his band of numpties. Ten years ago I thought ACT was all but gone when they only existed due to a seat gifted to them by Key. Now they have a core vote of racists and Maori haters. Dangerous

            Reply
            • Muttonbird 6.2.1.1.1.1
              20 November 2024 at 9:12 pm

              Seymour, Act, Atlas, NZF have been stunned by the global reach of the Maori party via the haka in parliament and te Hikoi mō Te Tiriti.

              Make no mistake, this has rocked them and their white supremacist backers. You can tell by the way fake Maori Seymour, Peters and Jones are calling for Hana-Rawhiti to go to prison and for parliament rules to be tightened so that social media reach is banned outright.

              These modern day KKK members will be asking themselves how this happened and how to not to repeat it in the future.

              Seymour's racist principle's bill will be a case study on how not to do things. But, they are still massively dangerous to ordinary people as you say.

              Reply
              • Muttonbird …
                20 November 2024 at 9:33 pm

                For instance, Seymour has given birth to a new indigenous rights model, Te Whare o te Rangatiratanga, which could be replicated in colonised communities all over the world.

                Like I say, there will be a stern, ‘please explain’ from the white money men…

                Reply
              • Jenny …
                21 November 2024 at 9:08 am

                All politics is pressure. Without mass counter pressure from tens of thousands of Maori and Pakeha and Pacifica New Zealanders, it is my view that Luxon would have acquiesced to the political pressure coming from those to the right of his party.

                Evil succeeds when good people do nothing.

                In this aphorism is the understanding that the vast majority of people are not evil. Even Hitler's government was a minority government. It was the German people's inertness that allowed the Nazi rampage.
                We need to celebrate the fact that we don't have that sort of public political inertness here.

                Muttonbird @6.2.1.1.1.1

                20 November 2024 at 9:12 pm

                Seymour, Act, Atlas, NZF have been stunned by the global reach of the Maori party via the haka in parliament and te Hikoi mō Te Tiriti……

                Hundreds gather in London to support hīkoi

                RNZ Morning Report, 7:18 am on 19 November 2024

                In London hundreds of people are gathered in front of the New Zealand High Commission to support hīkoi mō te Tiriti. Organiser Lyall Hakaraia spoke to Ingrid Hipkiss…..

                https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018964772/hundreds-gather-in-london-to-support-hikoi

                Could ACT, Atlas and NZF get more than a couple of hundred, even in this country, to rally in support of their nonsense?

                I sincerely doubt it.

                " After reading the bill, I’m more likely to start arming myself with semi-automatic weapons (easily to upgrade my more familiar fully-automatic weapons)…." Lprent

                "Time to start thinking about getting a gun license. Or to build a well-equipped workshop. Just in case.,,," Lprent

                "I grew up using them as a tool and never for just fun, both on farms and in the military. They are a dangerous tool, like a other tools like having a working knowledge of chemistry and physics. I've also done 7.5 years of my civilian working life building military software to train soldiers how to use weapons more effectively. I don't make that statement lightly." Lprent

                "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" Mao Tse Tung

                "Guns are a factor, but they are not the decisive factor, people are the decisive factor" Mao Tse Tung

                To lprent I would say you need to start thinking about putting your guns away, and putting your faith in the New Zealand people instead.

                You and I grew up in different worlds, Lynn. I grew up in political activism, against militarism, initially as a member of the PYM against New Zealand's military involvement, in the Vietnam War. And later against US nuclear warship visits to this country.
                In 1975 I marched with Whina Cooper from Te Hapua to Wellington. I got to know the march captain Witi McMath well. Witi McMath wearing his iconic flannel bucket hat, was the logistical and tactical mind that made the Maori Land March the organisational success it was.
                Witi McMath was a veteran of the Vietnam War, This, (now old), Vietnam war protester, spent a lot of time marching beside ex-Vietnam War soldier Witi McMath. I remember when the land march was passing Ohakea airbase. Uniformed NZAF from the base drove up and down in military jeeps buzzing the marchers, yelling out insults calling the marchers "Communists" and "Gooks" I said to Witi, (maybe a little unkindly), isn't that what you called the Vietnamese when you were in Vietnam. Witi? He replied quietly "Yes", with his head down. I can't imagine what he was thinking being humiliated and mocked by serving uniformed members of the NZDF he had so recently served alongside.

                This is the tradition I grew up with.

                I heard that Witi McMath died of the lingering effects of Agent Orange exposure.

                Reply
          • Georgecom 6.2.1.1.2
            20 November 2024 at 8:29 pm

            Maori privilege claims by seymour, brash and their cronies. Their political dna is about privileging existing wealth and power, mostly white older men. Look at the make up of the business roundtable 40 years ago and understand not a whole lot has changed there.

            Reply
            • lprent 6.2.1.1.2.1
              20 November 2024 at 11:54 pm

              What is bloody annoying is that Seymour, Brash, Jordan, Farrar, Hosking et al assert that there is Maori privilege, yet have been completely incapable of pointing to verifiable instances of it.

              Each one that does show up, when I look at it closely, doesn't produce any evidence of privilege that is distinguishable from 'privilege' that is afforded any other group.

              If there was one, then they'd be able to take it a court or tribunal. Yet that never happens.

              Just bald faced liars.

              Reply
  7. Ad 7
    20 November 2024 at 2:31 pm

    Yes I've always thought that this has to be the worst way to re-start the constitutional debate New Zealand needs with 26 years to go to our bicentenary.

    Palmer, Bolger and then Clark were able to sustain this level of engagement; Key and Luxon simply not up to it, but this Luxon one far far more damaging to us all.

    Reply
  8. SPC 8
    20 November 2024 at 2:55 pm

    Shane Jones, makes the case that the real threat to Maori is from him and New Zealand First. It is strong and I am convinced.

    This party should no longer be seen as a potential partner for any Labour led government. I cannot see how the Green Party could support a LNZ government again after this column.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/parliament-must-be-a-place-where-law-and-order-not-unlawful-disorder-is-on-display-shane-jones/C3ZNIMT3ZJG4TORCTXDCTULMRI/

    He claims that the Labour Green and Maori parties are placing wokeness before the working class.

    This is a lie, NZ First chose to side with an NACT government in betrayal of the working class.

    What portfolios does the ACT deputy leader have? They enabled three years of low MW increases. They chose the coalition that blocked the Fair Pay Agreement.

    They have one third of the PGF money and it will all go to infrastructure (and is no where enough).

    His words about power prices for business were mere grandstanding, an empty suit with an auto-tune mouth piece. NACT'S puppet.

    He must know that power prices are high because shareholders want profits. National set up that system and he dares not speak the truth about that.

    Puppet.

    There will be a haircut to any party that man leads alright.

    Reply
    • Dennis Frank 8.1
      20 November 2024 at 3:40 pm

      Positioning, huh? I presume he ran it by Winston before hitting send.

      The rules of parliament exist for good reason.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/parliament-must-be-a-place-where-law-and-order-not-unlawful-disorder-is-on-display-shane-jones/C3ZNIMT3ZJG4TORCTXDCTULMRI/

      How fortunate that he didn't explain the reason (to serve the control system). Yet he didn't ask the Speaker to penalise TMP. If he lays a formal complaint we'll know he wasn't merely posturing.

      New Zealand First will prune Treaty references and deliver a statutory haircut to the Waitangi Tribunal.

      Yet he didn't say when they will do so. Predicting the future usually doesn't work unless it seems likely. He seems irritated that parliamentary performance art achieved global news headlines.

      The lemmings from the Green Party and Labour followed accordingly.

      No kidding! When I saw our headline replay from parliament tv they were just watching. Did I miss the good bit? Green/red lemmings add colour to any ritual.

      Reply
    • lprent 8.2
      20 November 2024 at 11:10 pm

      Never particularly liked nor trusted Shane Jones since the first time that I saw him speak.Nor any time since.

      Pegged him as grand-stander with rhetorical flourish and absolutely no ability to deliver anything substantive. Good at sales that fall through because of lack of attention to details. He is the type that I label as a blowhard sales.

      My first job after university was doing technical sales often for anything that had temperatures of more than about 300C, from pottery kilns upwards and including Think Big projects.

      I was ratshit at the sales part, reasonably good at the quoting, science and engineering.

      But I got sent to a number of courses on how to do sales, with groups of sales people of varying levels of expertise. That in its way was fascinating because you got to see a number of people across whole ranges of professions and at varying degrees of expertise who were doing or trying to do sales work.

      Since then I've worked with effective sales people, ineffective sales people, sales people who blame everyone apart from themselves for their failures, great program managers (the bespoke version of a similar thing)..

      I generally kind of like sales people, whatever their title is. However some I despise – and Shane Jones is one of those.

      Reply
  9. Patricia Bremner 9
    20 November 2024 at 3:42 pm

    I think Seymour is like the weed didymo. I see him as…..

    The Oliver Cromwell of NZ who has a "recipe" for us… "so just listen while he tells us we are badly informed and he just wants us all to be equal".

    He is the classic scammer. "I have a deal for you Equality!! That equity stuff is woke"

    He is a passive aggressive manipulator, who frames any counter response as ill informed and not based on facts, (his facts).

    But, the real problem here is Luxon. He is not reading the danger from this upstart, and he believes he is "Sorted", so we have the makings of a huge problem, unless we absolutely refute this Bill.imo

    Reply
    • Obtrectator 9.1
      20 November 2024 at 4:09 pm

      Although Oliver Cromwell didn't care for the idea of hereditary titles, he was certainly no advocate of equality. He was a country squire by upbringing who believed no-one should have a say in the running of the country unless they had some sort of stake in it (i.e. was a property-owner like himself). The Levellers and other utopians got pretty short shrift from him.

      Reply
    • Mike the Lefty 9.2
      20 November 2024 at 6:09 pm

      Wait until he takes his turn as Deputy PM.

      He will evolve from a jumped up little pillock into an insufferably arrogant emperor.

      Meanwhile our (supposedly) real PM spends most of his time overseas because they treat him like the leader he isn't rather than the minor bureaucrat that he really is.

      Reply
  10. feijoa 10
    20 November 2024 at 3:49 pm

    Thanks for your thoughts lprent, it is stuff I hadn't thought about, particularly where the courts come into it.

    I may need to read your article several times.

    God knows how the politically uninterested, who may have to vote in a referendum, would wrap their heads around all this.

    In terms of Seymour- I would vote for dangerous rather than stupid.

    Reply
  11. thinker 11
    20 November 2024 at 5:29 pm

    Yes, the treaty is between Maori and the Crown. To that extent, as a pakeha, I should be a bit at arm's length from this, supportive but not the one having the finger pointed directly at me.

    But, as the process of campaigning, coalition-ing and now releasing the bill, more and more I've decided I am directly affected by it.

    That's because I've realized that the bill isn't just attacking the treaty, it's as much attacking all that's happened towards working on grievances and a path to partnership.

    I just remember the 1975 hikoi and Bastion Point. But they were something adults were talking about that I really didn't understand.

    But I do remember race relations were different then, and I know that a lot of hard effort has gone in by both Maori and Pakeha alike, in the name of nation-building, both for ourselves and our future generations.

    At university, studying something completely different to treaty issues, I was far from an A student and only got through by long hours. Free time was a precious commodity, some of which was put to learning about cultural and treaty issues. I'm the sort of person who prefers to do things because they are the right thing not just the law, and I spent a significant proportion of my free time learning why change was needed as well as how to respond to it.

    I married and had a family. More scarce 'me' time, some of went into further learning based on what the next generation brought to the dinner table. More learning and more adjusting to change.

    I think the majority of Pakeha are like me. And, we expect to keep learning and adapting for the rest of our lives. Likewise, our children and their children.

    Coming back to my main point. This bill doesn't just attack the treaty, it attacks decades of hard work by all, learning and adapting to live in partnership.

    It isn't just an attack on Maori, it's an attack on all of us, save those who would rather the rest of us changed to suit their world-view.

    Luxon called himself a great negotiator. Someone commented to The Standard that if he dug his ground on the bill according to the values he says his party stands for, ACT would have taken that deal.

    Let's cry Shame on all that Seymour and ACT have done, but let's not forget that none of it would have been possible if Luxon and National had had the guts to stand by their principles.

    Reply
    • Rodel 11.1
      8 December 2024 at 12:50 pm

      Nat principles are the same as ACT's. Darwinian survival of the few at the expense of the weak majority. Something that ethical people have to counter for the sake of a decent society.

      Reply
  12. KJT 12
    20 November 2024 at 6:51 pm

    the bill is about opening up New Zealand to corporate exploitation for profit. It’s as simple as that.

    Reply
    • Betty Bopper 12.1
      22 November 2024 at 12:45 pm

      Corporations always looking for ways to exploit and profit via lobbying gropups, mp's etc…. and it might also be about transitioning away from the official bi-cultural idea of NZ to becoming a multicultural one – one where the Chinese and Indian resident communities who tend to vote conservatively might become an even more reliable voter base for a small party like Act ? You've got to think with a toe in the door at 8% they're trying to wedge their way in further and up their % … with Seymour repeatedly saying this bill is about making every NZer equal I think he may be looking for votes amongst those citizens excluded from the historic Maori-Pakeha relationship and agreement.

      Reply
  13. Nigel Haworth 13
    20 November 2024 at 7:35 pm

    I interpret Mr. Seymour’s posturing as a clever and deliberate attempt to weaken further liberal democratic arrangements in New Zealand. Those arrangements have been weakened already by half a century of market discipline. Mr. Seymour adopts a classic populist style, by cynically using the principles of liberal democracy – the sacrosanct nature of Parliament, for example – to further his attack thereon. His politics would be easily recognised in large parts of Latin America and elsewhere. It is a politics of pretence of belief in the existing order, laid over deliberate attempts to “divide and rule” by creating conflict and division. That conflict and division polarises political positions. weakens democratic institutions and creates calls for alternative political arrangements.

    Mr. Seymour thinks, I believe, that, below the surface, there is a majority of people in New Zealand who, when pushed, will oppose the Treaty-based process. It is not clear whether this is the case or not. It is clear that history may take unexpected and sometimes shocking courses when an established order is weakened.

    Reply
    • Subliminal 13.1
      21 November 2024 at 12:27 pm

      I think we are tending to overlook the role of Luxon in this. He absolutely is the enabler of the bill. To portray him as somehow manipulated and naive may not be correct. It would be safer to assume that Seymour is doing currently sanctioned National Party work.

      We already have Shane Jones fully supportive and unless Winston begins to assert himself, Shane will drive NZ1st into a supportive role.

      Then it will be down to Luxon who will certainly try to play the victim as he pledges Nationals votes to a second reading.

      It's difficult to read this as anything other than a last "all in" attempt to wreck co governance. I would expect that Luxons weird brand of US fundamentalist Christianity has some crossover with the Atlas network. This alignment of Luxon, Seymour and Jones is a once in a lifetime "opportunity" for the wreckers and they cannot now withdraw and leave such a vibrant uprising intact.

      Reply
      • Nigel Haworth 13.1.1
        22 November 2024 at 10:16 am

        Mr. Luxon misplayed his hand on this. Mr Seymour cannot lose whatever happens to the particular measure. He knows he has some? a lot of? support in the community for his approach. He knows that he's tapping into National voters on this issue. Mr. Luxon, however, knows that his support covers the range of views on the Treaty, and wherever he lands will be at odds with some elements of his own support. Far better not to have the Bill at all. .

        Reply
  14. feijoa 14
    20 November 2024 at 9:20 pm

    Big Capital never stops, an endless pillaging monster.

    Theft of the commons.

    And another round of theft of the other commons- indigenous land and resources, because they didn't get all of it last time. It is what this is actually about. For God's sake, Maori land has been reduced to 5.5% of Aotearoa's total. And the bastards want that too.

    Reply
  15. powerman 15
    21 November 2024 at 7:10 am

    The Bill is a simplistic Atlas tactic to divide the country and advance the profile of Seymour and ACT.

    Reply
  16. SPC 16
    21 November 2024 at 8:20 pm

    A petition initiated by Action Station against the Act bill has support from 280,000.

    Over 360,000 signatures are required (10% of those enrolled) within 12 months for there to be a referendum.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360493181/numbers-how-big-stop-treaty-principles-bill-petition

    Reply
    • Muttonbird 16.1
      21 November 2024 at 8:44 pm

      Would be beautiful if a referendum, Seymour's treasured political mechanism, were used against him and his racist bill.

      Reply
  17. observer 17
    22 November 2024 at 8:58 pm

    Seymour is smart and smooth enough to cloak racism in nice, moderate language ("just want a debate").

    Fortunately his supporters are not media-trained politicians, so they say what they really think.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/david-seymour-wont-bow-down-to-his-hapu-leaders-over-treaty-principles-bill/6JB7ATGZQZB5JAE252OTJHG3D4/

    His audience of up to 200 was highly engaged on Māori issues even before Seymour arrived.

    One said Māori were like seagulls: if you feed them “more come – and then they start c***ping on you”.

    Congratulations on making racism respectable, Mr Luxon. Now reap what you sow.

    Reply
  18. Jim Skeats 18
    25 November 2024 at 11:21 am

    I wrote to Judith Collins last week asking their KC titles be revoked. A Kings Counsel cannot demand Parliament withdraw a Bill. The last lawyer to try it on, Sir Richard Wheaton, was imprisoned for contempt in 1641 by The Long Parliament. The unsolicited advice was also negligent for it entirely omitted the Gipps-Wentworth legal debate. It also breached S 9 of The Fair Trading Act.

    Reply

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