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Open mike 01/01/2020

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, January 1st, 2020 - 118 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

118 comments on “Open mike 01/01/2020 ”

  1. Jenny How to get there 1

    '

    They can't say they didn't know.

    If there is ever a Nuremberg type trial for those charged with committing ecocidal crimes against the climate, Scott Morrison's name will be read out at the top of the charge sheet.

    Australia’s Angry Summer: This Is What Climate Change Looks Like

    The catastrophic fires raging across the southern half of the continent are largely the result of rising temperatures
    By Nerilie Abram on December 31, 2019

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/australias-angry-summer-this-is-what-climate-change-looks-like/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-digest&utm_content=link&utm_term=2019-12-31_top-stories

    This Was the Decade We Knew We Were Right

    Everything is connected, and everything is changing
    By Kate Marvel on December 30, 2019

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/hot-planet/this-was-the-decade-we-knew-we-were-right/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-digest&utm_content=link&utm_term=2019-12-31_featured-this-week

    • halfcrown 1.1

      Great articles. In the meantime the politicians like this country let other countries to bottle and export their water, no doubt in environmentally damaging plastic bottles. Someone making a quick buck is more important than looking after the environment or your own people first.

      Tragic to read that about 30% of the koalas have died, and other wildlife has also been devastated. It will never recover as we can expect this shit to continue now year after year after year. In fact Oz will become a hostile place to live. No longer a holiday destination for us as we loved the bush but now too dangerous to have out back type holidays

      It is a pity that it wasn't 30% of the politicians and large corporates of this world that suffered if they did the problems would start to be fixed overnight.

      https://qz.com/1776800/chinese-company-gets-approval-to-bottle-water-from-drought-plagued-australian-town/

      • A 1.1.1

        Those Aussie councils seem very corrupt. There needs to be a law prohibiting Chinese or anyone from exporting water, preferably criminal. Now.

    • Anne 1.2

      To be honest, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the Aussies who keep voting those dinosaurs back into power. They are getting what they deserve. The unfortunate side effect: the undeserving are copping it too.

      As for the wild life – it is too upsetting to even think about.

      • OnceWasTim 1.2.1

        Indeed (as far as the sympathy bit goes). It's becoming harder and harder to feel anything for the willfully and intentionally ignorant.

        The undeserving are copping it everywhere – so as I said yesterday, things might have to get worse before they get better. In the scheme of things – so be it.

        It's even worse when you consider the okkers have compulsory voting. But guess what (what OWT?). Expect a load of Australian and British refugees (due to climate denial and Brexit respectively), and they won't be considered "queue jumpers" or "economic migrants", and they won't be coming in boats either.

  2. the other pat 2

    great articles…..i despair that folks will wake up…..

  3. Jenny How to get there 3

    Shock and awe

    Gaze on this image of the Australian fires spewing smoke into the sky taken by a Japanese satellite.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/118545776/massive-currents-of-smoke-from-australian-fires-reach-new-zealand

    Viewing the docudrama Chernobyl on Prime TV a few weeks ago one of the most shocking aspects of the disaster apart from the disaster itself was how the Soviet authorities down played it.

    Reminiscent of the fire crisis in Australia and how the authorities there try to down play it.

    Despite the efforts of the Soviet authorities to downplay the true full horror of the Chernobyl disaster, the truth was revealed to the world by American satellite images that showed the Chernobyl reactor core open to the sky spewing radiation across Europe.

    Luckily for us, the dense plume of smoke from the Australian bush fires, revealed by the Japanese satellite to be big enough to blanket the whole of the South Island, is passing just below the bottom of our country.

  4. Adrian Thornton 4

    OK so many people on this site probably find me to be an entrenched bore, which is also probably true, but I'm not apologizing for having firm views, that's how I roll..but seeming as it's the new year and all, here is a little gift from the beautiful archives of the classic period of American Public Access TV…enjoy, and hope you all have a great and happy years ahead..

  5. Jenny How to get there 5

    Did Nero really play the fiddle while Rome burned?

    Did Scott Morrison really holiday in Hawaii while Australia burned?

    Gaze on the weirdly manic images all over the internet of Scott Morrison with a wreath of Hawaiian flowers crowning his forehead, while Australian burned, and not be awed with the eerie similarity with ancient and modern images of of Nero depicted with a wreath of laurels on his forehead while Rome burned.

    Historians cannot agree whether the ancient written written accounts that Roman Emperor Nero fiddled while Rome burned are accurate, or were just repeating contemporary mischievous gossip.
    But modern recording technology and the internet will leave no doubt for future historians to determine that Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison did indeed holiday in Hawaii while Australia burned.

    https://www.mamamia.com.au/scott-morrison-in-hawaii

    • Ad 5.1

      Plenty of scope for Labor to act as well since they are in power in most of the states.

    • millsy 5.2

      The 'fiddling' that Nero did is actually the equivalent of twiddling his thumbs, and not playing a musical instrument as often depicted in literature.

  6. Puckish Rogue 6

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/31/new-zealands-year-of-style-over-substance

    'Last week Beehive insiders told leading political journalists that the “Year of Delivery” promise was actually a spin-line produced on the fly by the PM’s top spin doctor to get his boss out of a tight situation when she needed something memorable to say at the start of 2019.'

    Ouch…

    • bwaghorn 6.1

      Shock horror politican uses spin doctor.!!!!

      She should have shrugged her shoulders and said shes akshully relaxed about it .

      • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1

        I guess the real problem is that, like Kiwibuild, some silly voters might akshully expect her to, I don't know, produce something

        Maybe

        • millsy 6.1.1.1

          It's a bit hard to do anything when your lot make out modest changes to our system as a Bolshevik revolution.

          • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1.1.1

            So just to be clear you're saying that the COLs failure is because of National/Act, the opposition, whose job it is to oppose the COL is opposing the COL successfully

            Huh well ok, that's an…interesting take on it I suppose

            • Louis 6.1.1.1.1.1

              So dirty politics is the role of opposition? Is National really presenting itself as a credible government in waiting?

        • Gabby 6.1.1.2

          They've built a few state houses puckeroni, your lot'll be able to sell them when they get back in.

        • Louis 6.1.1.3

          Kiwibuild is still building plus thousands of state houses have been built with more under construction, that's producing something is it not?

    • Sacha 6.2

      Never a good sign, a political organisation being so bereft of strategic nous that it falls to a comms person to invent a focus.

      • Puckish Rogue 6.2.1

        Also never a good sign when it comes from the Guardian

        • Sacha 6.2.1.1

          from Bryce Edwards

          • Puckish Rogue 6.2.1.1.1

            Good spotting

            • Louis 6.2.1.1.1.1

              Take anything that Bryce Edwards says with a large dose of salt.

              • Peter

                According to the Edwards' piece, "…Beehive insiders told leading political journalists that the “Year of Delivery” promise was actually a spin-line…"

                Does that mean after the leading political journalists were told one of them told the other journalists such as Edwards?

                • Louis

                  Where's the proof? its just hearsay isn't?

                  • Anne

                    I haven't read the Edwards' piece because as soon as I saw it was him I didn't bother.

                    But it sounds like a made-up bit of tosh. Part of the DP election strategy the Nats have chosen to run with. Hope it ends up biting them so hard on the bum they'll be yelping for years afterwards.

  7. A 7

    Is it climate change, or geoengineering that is accelerating climate change? Be nice if geo' wasn't auto-dismissed especially when we NEED to know exactly how much impact (if any) this is having so we can follow up with solutions.

    Indisputable are the patents for weather modification + measurable aluminum where it should not be..whales, bees, rainwater….

    Good thing is that if it is a major issue it can be halted immediately, delaying our rapidly approaching demise.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    [no climate denial under my posts please – weka]

  8. Anat Shenker-Osoroio's mop of hair probably generates its own heat & is a climate change threat. She needs Greta with a large razor to trim it while Greta dissess her with statements like "You have ruined my dreams” "I will never forgive you"

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Puckish Rogue 8.1

      You forgot "how dare you"

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve8tYdNltGg

      • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1.1

        Thanks for sharing that ‘classic‘ example of Thunberg belittlement PR – can see why it tickled your fancy. TIME's person of the year (2019) will be cut to the quick.

        https://time.com/person-of-the-year-2019-greta-thunberg/

        Can't wait for the Adani coal basin development to ‘come online‘ – more coal than you can shake a stick at, I reckon! Looking forward to longer-lasting magical yellow skies.

        https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/south-wakes-yellow-skies

        • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1.1

          She joins an illustrious group all right, I'd certainly want to be associated with them:

          Adolf Hitler: TIME's person of the year 1938

          Joseph Stalin: TIME's person of the year 1939 & 1942

          Ruhollah Khomeini: TIME's person of the year 1979

          • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1.1.1.1

            PR, did you select Hitler/Stalin/Khomeini from a longer list, and (if so), what were your selection criteria?

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Person_of_the_Year#Persons_of_the_Year

            No need to answer; not surprised that you would choose to associate Thunberg with Hitler and Stalin. IMHO 1988 and 2011 would be better and more accurate choices.

            Still, five days left for your Epiphany laugh

          • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.1.2

            Pucky! You're being silly! Thought you'd moved beyond…

            • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1.1.2.1

              Sorry, I just can't and won't accept beratement from a teenager

              • Incognito

                Dismissing the messenger is usually the easier option. Dismissing the people who listen and respond to the message is even easier.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Don't take that "beratement" personally – Thunberg doesn't know you exist. Fantastic to realise that she's been much much more influential in just one year than you and I will be in our entire lifetimes. What a wonderful world.

                An inspiration to tens of millions. Yes yes, I know – "So was Hitler!" laugh

              • Sacha

                I just can’t and won’t accept

                That's OK. They will just work around you anyway.

          • Psycho Milt 8.1.1.1.3

            There's really nothing more persuasive than seeing white men disparaging an autistic teenage girl on the Internet, right? That's the gold standard of persuasive argument right there.

            • Puckish Rogue 8.1.1.1.3.1

              As opposed to listening to the same teenager spouting nothing that hasn't been said and thinking shes the second coming

              Shes got a couple of years (18 or 20) before the media tire of her and annoint a new, younger version

              Same as the Olsen twins, Brittney, Lindsay, Christina, Mandy etc etc

              • But in the meantime, this teenage girl can experience everything the world's grumpy old men can throw at her, because she dared to stick out from the rest. Whatever gets you through the night, I guess.

    • Gabby 8.2

      Whodat bugga69?

  9. Formerly Ross 9

    The opportunity here is that the current bushfire crisis will push a larger number of the population to demand change and more people will then support movements like SS4C, and then the politicians will follow. This is how change happens.

    That is very unlikely, as spending billions of dollars with no idea of what effect such expenditure will have is not something I'd recommend. Bjorn Lomborg has made the same point. And bushfires have been happening for decades. Many people possibly wouldn't be aware that there was a huge bushfire in Victoria in 1851 and there have been many large bushfires since.

    https://www.ffm.vic.gov.au/history-and-incidents/past-bushfires

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 9.1

      I don’t allow climate denial under my posts. This has been well hashed out. Climate scientists and very experienced firefighters are saying you are wrong. These fires are unprecendented in scale, intensity and timing. This isn’t one large bushfire in one area, this is fires across the whole country and at times not normally experienced. And driving that is drought from climate change.

      The economic cost of not acting will far, far outweigh any negatives to the economy now from climate action. But there is no good reason to not change the economy.

  10. Formerly Ross 10

    I don’t allow climate denial under my posts.

    I'm not sure if you're referring to someone else as you would well know I'm not a climate denier.

    The economic cost of not acting will far, far outweigh any negatives to the economy now from climate action.

    Well, that is your opinion but it doesn’t appear to be based on fact. What is a fact is that spending large sums on an indeterminate outcome will mean less expenditure elsewhere.

    • weka 10.1

      perhaps you need to make your point clearer then, because it looked to me like you were saying Australia has always had fires, and there's no point in Australia reducing GHGs or taking serious action on CC.

      "Well, that is your opinion but it doesn’t appear to be based on fact. What is a fact is that spending large sums on an indeterminate outcome will mean less expenditure elsewhere."

      What's the indeterminate outcome?

      • Formerly Ross 10.1.1

        What's the indeterminate outcome?

        Spending billions or trillions of dollars and hoping for the best. That is the antithesis of science.

        This year, the world will spend $US162 billion ($230bn) subsidising renewable energy, propping up inefficient industries and supporting middle-class homeowners to erect solar panels, according to the International Energy Agency. In addition, the Paris Agreement on climate change will cost the world from $US1 trillion to $US2 trillion a year by 2030. Astonishingly, neither of these hugely expensive policies will have any measurable impact on temperatures by the end of the century.

        Climate campaigners want to convince us that not only should we maintain these staggering costs, but that we should spend a fortune more on climate change, since our very survival is allegedly at stake. But they are mostly wrong, and we’re likely to end up wasting trillions during the coming decades.

        Over-the-top environmental activists are not only out of synch with the science but they also are out of touch with mainstream concerns. A global poll by the UN of nearly 10 million people found that climate change was the lowest priority of all 16 challenges considered. At the very top, unsurprisingly, are issues such as better education, better healthcare and access to nutritious food. We need to address climate change effectively — but we should remember that there are many other issues that people want fixed more urgently.

        https://www.lomborg.com/news/how-to-spend-162bn-to-fix-climate-along-with-everything-else

        I guess if we were to print money, we could possibly afford to waste trillions. But we likely won't be printing money – we'll simply be forgoing expenditure elsewhere (eg, health, welfare, education).

    • Sacha 10.2

      I'm not a climate denier

      Citing Lomborg does not help your claim.

      • Formerly Ross 10.2.1

        So what has Lomborg said about climate change? From the link above:

        "Global warming is a real, man-made problem…"

        Hmmm mayhe's a Holocaust denier because he sure isn't a climate denier.

        • solkta 10.2.1.1

          There are now three generations of CC denial:

          1. The planet is not warming

          2. The planet is warming but it is natural cycles not human activity

          3. Human activity is part of the problem but only a small part and the consequences are greatly exaggerated

          • Formerly Ross 10.2.1.1.1

            Solkta,

            Your response is akin to anyone criticising Israel being labelled an anti-semite. Please try and engage meaningfully.

            Lomborg is saying that climate change is a real problem but it's not the only problem. He's also saying that it would be foolish to throw vast sums of money at the problem when the expenditure is likely have little impact on climate. He also makes the point that renewables need to be much cheaper, and governments need to commit to making them cheaper.

            • solkta 10.2.1.1.1.1

              Nobody here is interested in your smelly poos.

              • Incognito

                If you are no longer interested in participating in the discussion thread, just walk away and/or say so in the first person singular.

            • weka 10.2.1.1.1.2

              Actually solkta gave a clear summary of climate denial dynamics. Your comments look like a denialist position to me too.

              Believing that lowering GHGs won't impact on CC, and advocating against action based on that, is a form of denial. It's dangerous too.

              • Formerly Ross

                Actually solkta gave a clear summary of climate denial dynamics. Your comments look like a denialist position to me too.

                You're wrong, Weka.

                • weka

                  Feel free to make the argument about how I am wrong then. I can only go off what I am reading here.

                  • Formerly Ross

                    Feel free to make the argument about how I am wrong then. I can only go off what I am reading here.

                    Well, I've commented here over several years – my views are well known.

                    To repeat: should we throw billions or trillions of dollars at a problem if we don't know what effect, if any, that spending will have? Lomborg claims it will have a negligible effect. Meanwhile, about two million people die each year from TB or a lack of clean drinking water. Some 400,000 people die each year from malaria.

                    "An estimated 6.3 million children under 15 years of age died in 2017, or 1 every 5 seconds, mostly of preventable causes, according to new mortality estimates released by UNICEF, the World Health Organization (WHO), the United Nations Population Division and the World Bank Group."

                    “Without urgent action, 56 million children under five will die from now until 2030 – half of them newborns,” said Laurence Chandy, UNICEF Director of Data, Research and Policy. “We have made remarkable progress to save children since 1990, but millions are still dying because of who they are and where they are born. With simple solutions like medicines, clean water, electricity and vaccines, we can change that reality for every child.”

                    These are huge numbers and greater than the number of deaths caused by climate change. Feel free to ignore these facts on the basis of climate denial. However, that would be unhelpful and wrong.

                    https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/child-under-15-dies-every-five-seconds-around-world-un-report

                    • Sacha

                      Sounds familiar. We shouldn't spend health budgets on reducing smoking while a single tuberculosis case remains untreated.

                    • Lomborg claims it will have a negligible effect.

                      See, there's your problem right there. You're treating some Danish statistician as an authority on climate and then trying to argue from authority that we don't need to do anything about AGW. That looks like disingenuous AGW denial to the people on this thread, with good reason. You should consider a different approach if you want to post on weka's threads.

                    • Formerly Ross

                      Sounds familiar. We shouldn't spend health budgets on reducing smoking while a single tuberculosis case remains untreated.

                      That's a weird response and completely misses the point I was making. We shouldn't be spending vast sums of money when we have no idea if that spending is going to have much if any impact. That is especially so when other significant problems exist which are resulting in considerable harm and death.

                      You're treating some Danish statistician as an authority on climate and then trying to argue from authority that we don't need to do anything about AGW.

                      Hmmm you'll have to point to where he or I say that we should do nothing about AGW. As for making a veiled threat about who should be posting on Weka's threads, those that have to bullshit to bolster their argument should go to Kiwiblog. 🙂

                    • weka

                      "should we throw billions or trillions of dollars at a problem if we don't know what effect, if any, that spending will have?"

                      I still don't know what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that lowering global GHG emissions won't effect the progression of climate change?

                    • weka

                      "As for making a veiled threat about who should be posting on Weka's threads, those that have to bullshit to bolster their argument should go to Kiwiblog."

                      I've long had a position of no climate denial under my posts. I've written about the why in the past. Sometimes I put a note at the end of the post, but unlike when I first started writing I generally don't need to now because there aren't as many deniers around (and those that are know better).

                      The onus is on commenters to demonstrate that they're not running denialist lines. I still haven't seen you do that.

            • Gabby 10.2.1.1.1.3

              Hopefully lombers has some ideas for addressing climate issues AND cleaning up water formerlyrossy?

        • Sacha 10.2.1.2

          So what has Lomborg said about climate change?

          For those interested in some context, https://grist.org/article/infamous/

  11. adam 11

    Oprah Winfrey and the positivity click are out in force.

    Think positive and the world is your oyster – funny how that has not worked for the last 40 odd years.

    Although it keeps getting repeated.

    and repeated.

    and repeated.

    and repeated.

    and repeated.

    and repeated.

    and repeated.

    and repeated.

    and repeated.

    and repeated.

    The answer is not nice words, positive thoughts and good intentions.

    The answer is to stop an ideology and system which is killing us.

    The sad truth is that all the guns, bombs and nukes – are in the hands of the maniacs who are the biggest stakeholders to keep the ideology and system running.

    Only option – stop

    Stop driving, stop working, stop being part of the system. Just stop.

    Too Soon…

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • RedLogix 11.1

      By all means adam, stop what you are doing. Turn off the power, the internet, the water and sewerage. Don't use the car, don't go to the supermarket … don't whatever you do go to the doctor or a hospital, call for the police or expect a lawyer to defend you.

      And especially don't expect the emergency services to scrape your rotting carcass off the couch.

      The point is you cannot stop, you are part of the world whether you like it or not. Stopping is not an option because you have basic needs that must be met, today, tomorrow and next week. Now I have no quibble with you having a vision of a different world, I have no problem at all with idealistic people. But you cannot get there if you starve today.

      None of us can, and there are 7b people to feed, today and tomorrow.

      • Bill 11.1.1

        Hey Red. At what point over the past few hundred years did the system of production and distribution we're tied into feed all of the world? Pretty sure it's been responsible for a lot of unnecessary starvation because. y'know, "the market". (Obvious eg – Irish people starved as food was exported from Ireland)

        Individual action won't cut the mustard. But individual non compliance can contribute to making current arrangements unsustainable. So maybe I'll drive a car if I justify a reason for driving it. And if I determine that a car journey so a guy can make me use my time 'making useless widgets' so he can make money doesn't justify driving a car, then hey…and that Human Rights protection if the legal system considers my reasoning to be on a par with religious belief 🙂

        But y'know, I'm a doctor or a nurse or a maintenance guy on crucial infrastructure….I'll drive to work if need be. 😉

        And while I do that, society drops its use of carbon related energy by 15% per year…aided and abetted by all those guys refusing to chew carbon for the sake of some cunt making profit from useless widgets…

        • RedLogix 11.1.1.1

          At what point over the past few hundred years did the system of production and distribution we're tied into feed all of the world?

          The old 'demanding perfection' fallacy. Of course the system failed from time to time, yet in 1800 there were just over 1b people and we seriously struggled to feed them reliably. Famine and winter starvation was a stark reality for many. Now we are 7.5b and growing and the biggest problem we have relating to food is that too many of us eat too much.

          Yes the bottom 1b humans still live precarious lives, but can you not see progress when it's literally on your plate daily?

          Nor am I claiming the forms of economy we have today are perfect and sufficient; that would be insane. Of course there is much room for improvement. But I generally find that the best way to improve a complex machine is not to start with a wrecking ball. Especially not machines I don't fully understand, I'm dependent on, and I don't have a backup for.

          • Bill 11.1.1.1.1

            The old 'demanding perfection' fallacy

            No. I'm pointing out that capitalism has produced famines and prolonged famine because implementing the ideology takes precedence over confronting reality humanely. That's entirely different from saying capitalism didn't prevent hunger or famine.

            But I generally find that the best way to improve a complex machine is not to start with a wrecking ball.

            Sometimes a tweak here and an adjustment there will be all that's required – that's true. And sometimes reality demands a Copernican revolution. The trick is in recognising the nature of situation confronting you.

            • RedLogix 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Famines and similar disasters long pre-dated capitalism, nor does it produce or prolong them by design. Otherwise why in such an intensely capitalist modern world are they now so comparatively rare? The problem with Ireland was not so much the market economy, but that the Irish people had lost political control over it.

              And don't pull the black and white fallacy on me. I may be defending industrialised capitalism for what it has achieved, but I'm not advocating that it can exist divorced from social and political concerns, nor that it's current form is sufficient.

              As for Copernicus, his revolution was entirely conceptual. It dramatically shifted our thinking, but on the day nothing changed. People still tilled fields, cooked meals and had babies as they always did. By contrast getting to carbon zero is going to demand a lot of complex, pragmatic change that will impact our daily lives. It's a totally different kind of problem, one that will not be solved with any kind of magical thinking or silver bullet. It will be one tricky damned thing after another, with lots of mistakes and missteps as usual.

              • Bill

                Famines and similar disasters long pre-dated capitalism, nor does it produce or prolong them by design.

                Of course famines have been around "since forever"! But capitalism does actually produce and prolong famines because of its inherent logic. If you don't like the Irish example, then let me give you the example of Tanzania (subject of the documentary "Darwin's Nightmare") – Nile Perch introduced to Lake Victoria, processed in a Japanese owned fish factory and exported to European restaurants by Russian cargo planes even as the local population starved. Such a shame the locals weren't rationally optimising economic units fruitfully engaging in neutral market transactions for food, eh?

                Yes, the Copernican Revolution was conceptual in nature. But what is capitalism if not a concept?

                • RedLogix

                  Again your example in Tanzania is more about political failure than the market. One of the core primary duties of any modern government is to ensure food security for it's people. I wonder if that documentary examined the role of the Tanzanian government in this? And would I loose much money if I bet on a fair bit of official corruption somewhere in that sadly sordid loop?

                  But what is capitalism if not a concept?

                  Carbon zero may be an idea, but achieving it is not. It will demand a substantial rewiring of our entire industrial economy … while it continues to feed, clothe and protect us daily. I see that as an intensely practical undertaking. Conceptual my arse 🙂

                  • Bill

                    So you've never seen the documentary but confidently state the famine was down to dodgy politics, not the rationale of economics. Watch it and then come back to me on the topic if you want.

                    I've never suggested that getting to zero carbon from fuel was anything other than a practical undertaking. What I said was that capitalism is just a concept – one that stands four square against any practical undertaking vis a vis global warming.

                    I'm also slightly curious as to who this "us" is that you're referring to. Does it include the people of Venezuela who are being starved or otherwise killed by the US led economic blockade of the country? Or does it include all the Iranians and/or Syrians who are being similarly denied basic requirements of life? Or the homeless in New York or London or Cairo or Auckland….does it include them? I'm thinking it only includes people you'd imagine to be in a position not so unlike your own (ie comparable). And Red? That's a minority of humanity.

                    • RedLogix

                      OK go right ahead and smash capitalism today. Then get back to me on who you are going to buy your solar panels from. Or any of the myriad goods and services we will need to build carbon zero economies for 7b people in the next few decades.

                      Best wishes Bill.

                    • Bill

                      Best wishes to you too Red.

                      Who can I buy my solar panels from today Red? And where can I get that double glazing from? Or any of the other (soon to be) basic necessities in a 'globally warmed' world?

                      I can't afford jack shit.

                      Truth be told, if 10 years ago I reckoned I'd live to be 80+ (all things being equal), with the apparently accelerating effects of AGW, I think it's entirely reasonable to contemplate popping well before my 80s during an extended heatwave in the not too distant.

                  • McFlock

                    One of the core primary duties of any modern government is to ensure food security for it's people.

                    Because capitalism can't be relied on to provide people's basic needs if there’sd a better buck to be made elsewhere.

                    • RedLogix

                      No single system can be relied upon, indeed the marxist economies were notably poor at it as well. Again don't pull the false dichotomy on me, I'm not arguing capitalism can exist in a moral or political vacuum. That's the libertarian mistake, and not even Adam Smith argued for that.

                    • McFlock

                      I think you're attributing benefits that may have happened despite capitalism to capitalism, and problems capitalism was solely responsible for to things other than capitalism. Has agriculture been boosted more by terminator seeds, or by government investment in irrigation projects?

                      NZ agriculture is still reaping the benefits of govt crop advances made when 2/3 of people worked for the government, but capitalism has no interest in funding and building infrastructure.

                      Capitalism is expendable but sadly unavoidable. Government is not expendable, but frequently degraded or absent.

    • Bill 11.2

      Too Soon…? lol Nope.

      Far too late if the intention was to be "not clattered" by the effects of global warming.

      The priests (economists and politicians in their service) 'led us' over a cliff edge. There be many who are turning to those very same sources and asking that they send up prayers or what nots – looking for them to formulate and deliver a plan that we might follow. (eg – A Green New Deal)

      The priests took us off this cliff edge. The question is around what's to be done when the top of the cliff's up there? Pretend the wind in the hair is because we're flying? That's the notion the priests and all the believers and not a few agnostics are hanging on to 🙂

      • RedLogix 11.2.1

        The climate change debacle provides us with a profound lesson; that extremists at both ends of a debate can and will derail effective action.

        By contrast the ozone CFC depletion problem did not involve big powerful interests out to defend their profits, nor ideological lefties yelling catastropohism and determined to thereby 'smash capitalism'. It was dealt to firmly and with remarkable efficiency.

        Of course fossil CO2 was always going to be a much bigger problem, but we could have made far better progress towards solving it if the debate had not become so political and intensely polarised.

        • Bill 11.2.1.1

          The extremists are today's economists and politicians – if slavish adherence to an political/economic theory that's laying waste to a planet's biosphere doesn't clear the bar for being reasonably viewed as a member of a death cult, then nothing does.

          Now you can finger point, and you can smear, and you can wave your arms all you like, but that cliff edge is way up there and we're traveling in a singular direction at quite a clip, thanks entirely to industrial capitalism.

          And ICI went to great lengths to stop movement on CFC (it was their gravy train requiring a high tech solution from ICI, except it wasn't 😉 )

          • RedLogix 11.2.1.1.1

            thanks entirely to industrial capitalism.

            Yet you are only alive and commenting on the internet because of this same industrial capitalism. Quite the conundrum really.

            Oh and the Australians would have had a price on carbon a decade ago, if the Greens had not scuppered it with an idiotic insistence that Rudd’s scheme was ‘not good enough’. Plenty of ideologues to go around.

            • Bill 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Your supposed conundrum's a bit thin.

              I'm alive, not because of industrial capitalism, but because a woman got pregnant and gave birth to me. Now, would there be an internet without capitalism? Possibly (no compelling reason why not). Would I be commenting on global warming in that case? Probably not.

              Australians, carbon prices….what!? Carbon prices do not impact on the use of carbon based fuel. The studies have been done and I've previously highlighted those studies in posts I've done for 'the standard'.

              • RedLogix

                but because a woman got pregnant and gave birth to me.

                In 1800's Victorian England the life expectancy was around 36 years. I'm assuming you and I are somewhat older than this.

                As for carbon pricing … tell this to the Australian Greens who were demanding more of it. And as is usual with anything climate related the answer is 'complicated'.

                But my point was not that carbon pricing is any kind of silver bullet, but that ideologues in the Australian Green Party literally hung two Labour PM's out to dry on climate change, and thereby opened the door to Tony Abbott and a decade of political toxicity. ScoMo is merely the latest installment in this debacle. All when Rudd had virtually achieved a bi-partisan agreement in principle.

                • Bill

                  I wonder what happened to life expectancy immediately prior to enclosure and immediately after. You reckon it went up? All that coal mining and those city slums and cotton mills in lieu of land where people could grow food probably worked 'wonders' on that front, aye?

                  • RedLogix

                    I don't think you are claiming that modern life expectancies are somehow lower than 200 years ago. Of course there is no rule that says progress is a neat, linear affair with no setbacks. For instance the one group in the USA with declining life expectancy right now is white working age males. (Please keep the cheering polite and subdued /sarc).

                    Yet here we are globally where life expectancy is typically double what it was 200 years ago. Over a period when our total population increased around 7 fold. All this in the context of a highly scientific, technical, industrialised economies based largely on a mix of capitalist and social policies. That's not too shabby really.

                    PS. And that’s it from me for now. Best wishes to you all personally. We live in very interesting times and I truly wish nothing but the best for you all. There is so much risk and opportunity all muddled up right now; it’s not easy wading through this.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 11.2.1.2

          "By contrast the ozone CFC depletion problem did not involve big powerful interests out to defend their profits" – really?

          But the Rowland-Molina hypothesis was strongly disputed by representatives of the aerosol and halocarbon industries. The chair of the board of DuPont was quoted as saying that ozone depletion theory is “a science fiction tale…a load of rubbish…utter nonsense“.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol

          • RedLogix 11.2.1.2.1

            So what. Very quickly the science prevailed. Of course ICI and Dupont had every reason to defend their interests, and it's entirely unsurprising they would attempt to do so. But in this case they soon realised they had some perfectly acceptable technical alternatives, that not only solved the problem, but represented a decent commercial opportunity.

            The reality is there wasn't a decade or so of funding directed at mass disinformation campaigns undermining the Montreal Protocol remotely comparable to the fossil carbon story. Or if there was I sure didn't notice it.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 11.2.1.2.1.1

              The quote is a directly relevant example of big powerful interests out to defend their profits – that’s “So what.

              What “the top 'golden' 1b” notice has, indeed, been largely a matter of choice. Maybe wealth will continue to be a good insulator.

  12. Fireblade 12

    This time next year, Simon Bridges could be the Prime Minister indecision.

  13. A 13

    Happy New Year, with drones instead of fireworks.

  14. weka 14

    Australian Green Party statement from 2013 on fuel reduction burns.

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