Open mike 01/08/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 1st, 2022 - 130 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

130 comments on “Open mike 01/08/2022 ”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    Guyon Espiner's interview with the PM this morning was, on the surface, robust. But the extraordinary thing about the interview, and the follow up discussion with the political editor, was how it was framed as a vigorous defense by the journalists of the neoliberal status quo – tax cuts are more efficient, the government itself is the problem for not following the advice of neoliberal civil service, the issue for the journalists seems to be the very concept of an active government.

    Lately we've been hearing an increasingly hysterical defense from National and most of the establishment MSM of the Thatcher/Reagan monetarist settlement and demands we return to that status quo with the usual prescription austerity, running down of government services, tax cuts for the rich, wage suppression via unchecked immigration and housing bubbles.

    With the rise of dark money propaganda – which of which will be subject of zero curiosity or scrutiny from an establishment MSM happy to re-print press releases from a thicket of false fronts set up by the the likes of Jordan Williams – It is going to be a very dirty election in 2023. A lot of fat cats are relying on the right returning us to the true path of Rogernomics and they are willing to pay what it takes.

    • Belladonna 1.1

      Just listened to both the interview (linked above) and the follow up with Jane Patterson (it's the second topic she addresses, after the proposed legislative change to close the NZF electoral donations loophole)

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018851597

      I didn't hear any "vigorous defence by the journalists of the neoliberal status quo" It's the job of journalists to ask hard questions – I'm sure many listeners would have been wondering 'why not tax cuts?' – which I thought that Ardern answered very effectively (tax cuts are inflationary long term, the targeted payment is less inflationary, and is short term)

      The points made by Patterson in the follow-up were:

      • This was rushed through, and less than perfect targeting is the consequence.
      • IRD gave advice that they didn't have the capacity to target more specifically.
      • Opens the government to charges of un-targeted spending [which the NP are exploiting]
      • bwaghorn 1.1.1

        I think the payment is a farce, short term populist rubbish , cut taxs on under $30 000 and pay for it with a raise on $70 000 and above ,

        Ironically I get the payment because last year I was under the cut off even though this year I'm above the cut off.

        • Descendant Of Smith 1.1.1.1

          And many partners with disabilities don't get it because they had no earnings and get neither a benefit nor ACC.

          This is a very much abandoned group – when I started work many employers paid an extra allowance for people who had non-working partners, you could claim a tax rebate if your partner earned under a certain amount and a few other things like life insurance rebates.

          Now all the costs fall on the one partner exacerbated by Labours decision to remove underage partners from NZS.

          Many of us who care for unwell partners will be working well past 65 simply to get the mortgage paid off and to try and save some money for retirement once that as done. The extra $6,000 to $7,000 in tax I pay over a couple earning the same amount each year over the last 30 years is the difference between paying my mortgage off already and being in Kiwisaver.

          I'm still fortunate however that I have been in a position where I have been able to support my partner. This isn't the case for many.

          Very few people in politics advocate for this group. Peter Dunne was probably the last. It does grate a little, despite understanding the practical aspects as to why this has occurred, that people overseas are getting this payment while non-working partners get zilch. Many like mine have worked in the past when well – it wouldn't be impossible to set up a system where they could apply for the payment.

      • Bearded Git 1.1.3

        David Parker was on Morning Report today saying that 1% of the cost of living payments would have gone to the wrong people.

        Later on Morning Report (or maybe it was at the start of Nine to Noon) I heard that there is a mechanism to repay wrong payments and a mechanism to stop the next two payments simply by gong to the website if somebody is receiving the payment wrongly.

        Yet again the media, including RNZ, is going well over the top and misleading the public in order to slam Labour.

        Meanwhile on this afternoon's RNZ Panel people came on saying the $350 would be very useful as a short term alleviating measure. And David Slack made the point that this is a measure in addition to raising benefits, Working for Family and raising the minimum wage and increasing the winter fuel allowance, which are far more important measures helping the low paid implemented by this government.

    • Anne 1.2

      Totally agree with you Sanctuary.

      The Espiner interview was an attempt to create a political storm around a minor glitch in the Cost of Living Payment to those on the lowest incomes. The vast majority of payments are going to people living in NZ, but a minority living overseas have been caught up in the system – as was expected. The amount involved will be infinitesimal in the scheme of things. Jacinda Ardern clearly and succinctly explained the problem and it was simply brushed aside by Espiner as if she had never said anything.

      A calculated storm in a tea cup designed to be a supposed example of "sloppy policy done on the hoof" as postulated by Jane Patterson, whose cynical and often inaccurate analysis of government action and policies prompted me long ago to rarely listen to them.

      The sense I got from both those interviews is that they were pandering to the middle classes who resent even a small payment to those on the lowest incomes at a time of considerable financial stress.

    • AB 1.3

      Agree Sanc. It was a maddeningly stupid piece of radio. But anything that is targeted will have problems at the boundary. Either individual injustices over who is included and who is not, or administrative issues of insufficient information to draw the boundary cleanly. It's a primary reason why universality is a good principle in social policy. If you can get support for it. Labour's caution on universality and insistence on targeting causes problems for themselves.

  2. Sanctuary 2

    Also, interesting 2016 piece from the Rand corporation on Fascist Russia's "Firehose of Falsehood" propaganda techniques, the effectiveness of which is played out frequently on this site in relation the Ukraine war and whose malign hand can, IMHO, be seen in the online support for Trumpism.

  3. Belladonna 3

    Thought this was an interesting take on whether NZ is becoming a more angry society – referencing organization psychologist John Eatwell.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-front-page-guns-rage-and-racism-has-nz-become-an-angry-nation/DGE5QSKOBBWHWUFQV3CWXBFGPM/?c_id=1&objectid=12541740&ref=rss

    Some take-aways:

    • Prolonged periods of stress actually have a biological effect, making us quicker to react in potentially stressful situations
    • Your ability to control your reactions also diminishes – where you might have walked away or vented to a friend later – you now react emotionally immediately.
    • Feelings of anger towards those 'in control' – people don't remember what they said, they remember how it made them feel.
    • Emotional anger (e.g. towards mandates) doesn't dissipate. It needs to be acknowledged.
    • Charismatic leaders (e.g. Tamaki & Molloy) harness that anger to get people to follow them.

    Key quote

    "I think there does need to be an acknowledgement of the anger rather than just putting it down to misinformation. We need to engage with all parts of society if we want them to be on board," says Eatwell.

    And that there's a ripple effect. Being kind ripples outwards – as does being angry and/or unkind. We can all make a difference….

    • Rosemary McDonald 3.1

      Yes. Caught my eye at 5 am and I was immediately struck by the complete inappropriateness of the attached photo.

      Guns! Rage! Racism!

      And a photo of a bearded chubby white dude being led away by two cops.

      Didn't see where it says he was arrested (and eye gouged by the cops) when he and his mates at the Freedom Village were defending the Precious Portaloos from being removed by the cops.

      Didn't see any photos of his mates…arms linked and all jammed together…who were predominantly Maori.

      These people were unarmed.

      No guns. No racism. And any rage was understandable in the face of the cops trying to make real the "river of filth" narrative.

      I'd say to the mainstream government funded media "Do better."

      But they're way beyond retrieval.

      • Stuart Munro 3.1.1

        Alienating and marginalizing is a pretty core social control mechanism.

        We tend to be intolerant of liars, and of those that offer violence.

        The Freedum crowd offered a range of both – why should they then enjoy immunity to the normal responses their anti-social behaviour invites? If we treat their false (and known to be malicious) grievances with undeserved respect, we will get even more of this dangerous folly.

        Police should have moved them off on day one.

        • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1.1

          One question Stuart Munro.

          Do you know of anyone who had such a severe reaction to a Pfizer injection that they would not risk having another?

          Someone who thought their heart was going to explode, perhaps?

          We tend to be intolerant of liars, and of those that offer violence.

          Is there any chance of you seeing this from the point of view of the Pfizer injured? That they were lied to when told it was safe? That they see the mandates as an actual physical threat? Along the lines of…"Take another shot of what put you in the hospital or you'll lose your job."

          • Stuart Munro 3.1.1.1.1

            I know a fellow who suffered a stroke the day he was vaccinated, and, initially many of us thought that the vaccination was a factor. He was not detected early, spent a month in hospital and still has significant loss of function. But it transpires that the vaccination was not a factor.

            I'm afraid that the people beating up the antivax rhetoric are simply not to be trusted. They have an agenda to obtain power or notoriety or money, and they do not serve those with anomalous medical outcomes in any way whatsoever. They are quacks and charlatans, and must be treated severely to deter both other prospective charlatans, and to make it crystal clear to naive members of the public that these scum are not competent medical authorities, nor are they worthy of their sympathy.

            Now, if you have a group of Pfizer injured persons, I am sure that competent medical practitioners will go to considerable lengths to find them alternative treatment options – but obdurate ignorant antivaxxers should not expect to work in medicine or education.

  4. Sanctuary 4

    "…Didn't see where it says he was arrested (and eye gouged by the cops) when he and his mates at the Freedom Village were defending the Precious Portaloos from being removed by the cops….

    Oh dear. You be crazy.

    • Rosemary McDonald 4.1

      You're going to have to do better than that Sanctuary.

    • Belladonna 4.2

      Perfect example of continuing to alienate and marginalize…..

      • Sanctuary 4.2.1

        Hey, if someone says something crazy, I call them crazy. Call me old fashioned, but there it is.

        • Robert Guyton 4.2.1.1

          Sane people can say crazy things, QED.

          Rosemary's like a dog with a bone on this issue. That can't be healthy, given the fight-back she gets every time she brings it up here.

          From this distance Rosemary appears to pick and choose examples and positions in order to bolster her beliefs. No doubt we all do that and when we do, it's useful (and healthy) to acknowledge that tendency and attend to it as far as we can; self-analysis and positive introspection seems a useful tool in forging a balanced, realistic world-view.

          Probably not helping the discussion, but I do like to put my spoke in whenever there's passion in a discussion 🙂

          • Rosemary McDonald 4.2.1.1.1

            From this distance Rosemary appears to pick and choose examples and positions in order to bolster her beliefs.

            You care to give examples of where I have done this? I think I have been very consistent in my position on this issue.

            I am healthy, thanks. I don't really care what 'fight-back' I get on this issue here on TS. I expect the usual responses from the usual people…all very ho hum.

            I do feel it is important that an alternative viewpoint is entered into these discussions. Else the record will not be reflective of the reality.

            A bit disappointing that there is so little sympathy here for those who had severe adverse effects from the Pfizer product.

            And I simply can't believe that I am the only person who comments here who has spoken to people who had such a severe reaction to one Pfizer shot that they would not ever risk having another.

            • Stephen D 4.2.1.1.1.1

              Regarding inoculations, immunisations and medical science in general. Medical science, including endless jabs, and medications have kept me alive since the day I was born.(70.25)

              So forgive my skepticism about a minute number of millions of vaccines, having side effects, and causing angst.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 4.2.1.1.1.2

              And I simply can't believe that I am the only person who comments here who has spoken to people who had such a severe reaction to one Pfizer shot that they would not ever risk having another.

              I'm one of those (I suspect very many) people who hasn't spoken to (or seen first-hand) anyone with a severe reaction to being jabbed with the Pfizer stuff.

              But even if I had, that wouldn't have put me off getting my five vaccinations (so far) this year. Boosters 1 (in Jan) and 2 (in July) against Covid, plus the annual jab against influenza, and (a first for me) two (Shingrix) vaccinations against shingles, which my GP reckons will last at least 7 years, so that's good.

              Nurse: Needles don't bother you then?

              Tony: Me? No. I've had too many of them, my dear. I've 'ad the lot. Got arms like pin cushions. Yes, I reckon I've 'ad a syringeful of everything that's going in my time. Needles the size of drainpipes some of 'em. You name it, I've ‘ad it!

              https://archive.org/details/BBC_Radio_4_Extra_20211009_110000?start=2699
              [@45 minutes] laugh

              • Incognito

                I have not met any person with serious adverse reactions caused by the Pfizer vaccine, which is telling with over 11 million shots administered in NZ (and through work I meet and hear of a lot of people). I have many friends and colleagues who did get Covid and were feeling pretty crook from it. I had a few very distant relatives overseas dying from Covid.

                All the hype around Covid-19 and the new ‘experimental’ mRNA vaccines certainly increased anxiety levels among many. I was hesitant too, waited a long time before I got my shots, and did my research homework first.

                https://theconversation.com/anticipating-a-side-effect-makes-it-more-likely-youll-experience-it-this-could-contribute-to-vaccine-hesitancy-180331

                • weka

                  Probably reality falls in between. I think Rosemary both exaggerates and doesn't have the skill or the willingness to parse severe adverse reaction from panic attack from coincidence.

                  but likewise, there are people who did have reactions, this was being discussed last year in medical circles. Severe to you might mean carditis. For someone with an autoimmune disease it might mean a relapse that few other people notice. Many of those people won't be recorded well in the medical systems. Haven't looked in a while but I doubt much research is being done. And afaik the Pfizer testing excluded people with chronic illnesses.

                  • Sacha

                    I have heard of some major reactions, as I would expect with any immunisation programme of this scale.

                    The population-level benefits of this public health initiative outweigh those individual harms, unfortunately. I do not know of any way to reverse that without causing more harm to more people.

                    This is very much like a world war. Collective action, individual sacrifice. Been the same for centuries. We are not special. People get hurt so that others may be free from it.

                    Our feelings about that do not outweigh or veto other sources of evidence or the body of professional expertise about what works. I would not wish on anyone the burden of the decisions that have been made in our name over the last few years. Glad to see Ashley Bloomfield getting out in one piece.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      The population-level benefits of this public health initiative outweigh those individual harms, unfortunately. I do not know of any way to reverse that without causing more harm to more people.

                      How about telling potential Pfizer product recipients that there are risks associated with the product, and for some people the risks from the product might outweigh the risk to them personally from being infected with the virus?

                      If they are in the 'high risk of serious illness, hospitalisation and death' category due to age, or co- morbidities then there might well be a sound argument for taking the Pfizer product.

                      (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33716331/)

                      There is no justification, in public health terms, for mandating a product that fails to prevent infection or transmission of the target pathogen.

                      And there is something extremely weird in telling someone (who is at very little risk of serious illness from Covid) that they have to have a second or third shot when they have recovered from the serious adverse effects from the last one in order to keep their job.

                      A bit like sending a seriously injured soldier back to the front when the stump has healed over.

                    • Sacha

                      There is no justification, in public health terms, for mandating a product that fails to prevent infection or transmission of the target pathogen.

                      Gosh all those public health experts must be wrong then.

                      Risks were communicated.

                      Like I say, wartime not business as usual. Needs of the many, etc.

                    • weka

                      The population-level benefits of this public health initiative outweigh those individual harms, unfortunately. I do not know of any way to reverse that without causing more harm to more people.

                      This is very much like a world war. Collective action, individual sacrifice. Been the same for centuries. We are not special. People get hurt so that others may be free from it.

                      This is pretty much how I see it too. The thing that would make a difference is if as a society stepped up and helped the people harmed. Even knowing what Labour and the MoH are like, I'm still disappointed we didn't do better on this. Collective action cuts both ways if we want to retain it as an ethic.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    I think Rosemary both exaggerates and doesn't have the skill or the willingness to parse severe adverse reaction from panic attack from coincidence.

                    Really? Panic attack? Hmmm…shall we have a discussion about how it was initially denied that myocarditis and pericarditis were an issue?

                    Do I need to remind you, yet again, that although there was an alert put out by the MOH in July 2021, officials felt it necessary to issue another, more strongly worded alert to all medial professionals in late December 2021?

                    https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/Alerts/comirnaty-myocarditis-reminder.html

                    A lot of fuss and bother for panic attacks.

                    You could, out of respect to the people who took the trouble to report adverse events, peruse the CARM reports for the past 18 months … https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/vaccine-report-overview.asp

                    …..and compare the rates of reports for the Pfizer product with the rates of reports for the flu shots. https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/reports-and-promotion/Spontaneous-Reports-Influenza-Vaccination-2020.asp

                    And notice that the rate is many times higher per dose for the former.

                    And can you tell me why there is no mandatory reporting of adverse events for a product using a novel technology? ( If I am wrong about this I am happy to be corrected.)

                    Btw. None of the four people I know who had heart issues post Pfizer shot are the panicking type. Not at all. All of them willingly took the shot. None of them would take another. Ever.

                    • weka

                      Really? Panic attack? Hmmm…shall we have a discussion about how it was initially denied that myocarditis and pericarditis were an issue?

                      What's the relationship between the two things? When I raise panic attacks and the inability of some to understand the importance of assessing effect and understanding correlation =/= causation, why do you pivot to the shortcomings of the mainstream medical health system? Is that a deflection?

                      Do I need to remind you, yet again, that although there was an alert put out by the MOH in July 2021, officials felt it necessary to issue another, more strongly worded alert to all medial professionals in late December 2021?

                      https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/Alerts/comirnaty-myocarditis-reminder.html

                      A lot of fuss and bother for panic attacks.

                      Ok, so maybe you missed the point massively. Some people got carditis from the vaccine. Some people died from that. Some people had panic attacks or other health issues and blamed the vaccine when there was no direct causation. Can you honestly not see the difference?

                      You could, out of respect to the people who took the trouble to report adverse events, peruse the CARM reports for the past 18 months … https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/vaccine-report-overview.asp

                      …..and compare the rates of reports for the Pfizer product with the rates of reports for the flu shots. https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/reports-and-promotion/Spontaneous-Reports-Influenza-Vaccination-2020.asp

                      And notice that the rate is many times higher per dose for the former.

                      I have no idea what point you are trying to make here, and if you won't spell it out I'm not going searching on links to try and parse it.

                      And can you tell me why there is no mandatory reporting of adverse events for a product using a novel technology? ( If I am wrong about this I am happy to be corrected.)

                      Dunno, maybe because GPs and nurses have no easy way of assessing what is an adverse reaction in an individual and what isn't?

                      Btw. None of the four people I know who had heart issues post Pfizer shot are the panicking type. Not at all. All of them willingly took the shot. None of them would take another. Ever.

                      What heart issues? I've said it before. If this is a huge problem, then set up websites, lay out case studies, make the case. If you want to be taken seriously, that's the mahi you have to do.

                      I'm not even saying you are wrong. I'm saying that each step of the way you've presented confused and relatively useless anectdotes. I say this as someone with a solid respect for anecdata, but to be useful and credible it has to presented in ways that have rationales and meaning beyond belief.

                      You've also repeatedly signalled that you don't understand fundamentals of evidence.

                    • weka

                      and please don't come at me as if I'm not fully aware of teh shortcomings of mainstream medicine. I'm so sick of the binary thinking.

                  • Sabine

                    yes there were death in NZ due to the Vaccine.

                    https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-links-26-year-old-mans-death-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-2021-12-20/

                    New Zealand authorities on Monday said they had linked a 26-year-old man's death to Pfizer Inc's (PFE.N) COVID-19 vaccine after the person suffered myocarditis, a rare inflammation of the heart muscle, after taking his first dose.

                    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/465103/ministry-of-health-announces-third-death-linked-to-vaccine

                    my search term: Young man dies of vaccination in NZ

                    i rememberd that young guy from the South Island.

                    So yes, people in NZ had adverse reaction to the vaccines and some died.

                    this might also be interesting to read

                    https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/educate/practice/shot-bro-adverse-cutaneous-reactions-following-covid-19-vaccination

                  • Incognito

                    A serious adverse reaction is defined as any reaction that results in death or is life-threatening, causes or prolongs hospitalisation, results in persistent or significant disability/incapacity, is a congenital abnormality or is a medically important event.

                    https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/reports-and-promotion/Spontaneous-Reports-Influenza-Vaccination-2021.asp

                    People with autoimmune disorders were advised to discuss Covid vaccination with their specialist first, as their medication could also interfere with the intended immune response to the vaccine (i.e. lower effectivity).

                    • Populuxe1

                      The booster put me on my back for a couple of days despite me not being especially delicate or congenital. Would I regard that as serious – of course not. There's a spectrum of unpleasant temporary side effects you might get from a vaccination but they're on a spectrum of relative norms one might expect with any vaccination when your body starts producing antibodies.

                    • weka

                      that's the medical view. A lesser adverse reaction to an already disabled person can be serious and not noticed by the system. I thought that was clear from my previous comment.

                      People with autoimmune disorders were advised to discuss Covid vaccination with their specialist first, as their medication could also interfere with the intended immune response to the vaccine (i.e. lower effectivity).

                      And? No-one knew what was going to happen to whole swathes of people with chronic illnesses. Still don't largely, because the research hasn't been done.

                • joe90

                  Around this time last year my mid 20s rugby head pig hunting chippie nephew came over all-a-flutter with post-vaccination tachycardia. His father had him to the ED within the hour. He was admitted and had an echocardiogram the following morning. He was given rhythm control medication, booked to see a specialist, put off work and discharged with an order to do absolutely nothing.

                  He was diagnosed with a vaccine injury but was back at work within the month. He was medicated for a while and they kept a weather eye on him and by Christmas he'd come right. Recently he got the okay to resume footie training and chasing things around in the scrub.

                  It could have been very different had his father not had the wit to get him to the ED.

                  • Incognito

                    Good that it was recognised and checked out. Acute arrhythmias after Covid appear to be rather harmless, but one can never be sure with that vital muscle. Based on your information, he’d be one of 106 reported in NZ in that age group of males (with twice as many females of the same age).

                    • joe90

                      Harmless perhaps but still bloody distressing for a young man who's never had to sit still in his life. But as soon as he started feeling better, wow. A pain in the arse is understating it.

                    • Incognito []

                      True, that.

    • More bitter and twisted, I think – and deluded into thinking the Natz would be better?

      • Rosemary McDonald 4.3.1

        So binary in your thinking.

        The whole 'If you're not for us you must be a National voter…' is just so lazy.

  5. Anker 5

    "Perfect example of continuing to alienate and margilise". Spot on as usual Belladonna and thanks for the bullet points re this article.

    "need to acknowledge the anger rather than just putting it down to misinformation"

    Exactly. Went you right off peoples concerns by labelling them as mad or bad and don't acknowledge thier emotions it builds anger. Not an exact quote.

    And yes "charismatic" leaders like Leo and Brian are around to tap into that anger.

    • Sanctuary 5.1

      Why should we give a shit about their feelings, good bad or indifferent? I don't get this assumption I should lose sleep over risking hurting the feelings of people who had the collective common sense of a startled Llama and delusions worthy of disciples of Atë.

      • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.1

        Why should we give a shit about their feelings?

        Oh, I don't know…it would be the human thing to do? It'd be kind? It would be recognition of the fact that not all Kiwis share your views and your experiences?

        You need to feel the Love, brother.

        https://odysee.com/@voicesforfreedom:6/freedom-village-parliament:2

      • Matiri 5.1.2

        That's a bit unfair to Llamas – they are known for their awareness and intelligence.

      • Anker 5.1.3

        "why should we give a shit about their feelings"

        My understanding of what the psychologist from the link above was saying is if we don't acknowledge peoples feelings, then that feeling (of anger) stays with them, and they are less likely to be open to logic and new information (I am not referring to you here Rosemary I am talking generally).

        If we have angry citizens who feel their feelings have not been heard the likes of Brian Tamaki and Leo Molloy will likely swoop them up. This is what I think happened or is part of what happened with Trump and Brexit.

        If the Govt brings in a piece of legislation that has a major impact on peoples circumstances, I think they have a duty to listen to them.

        • satty 5.1.3.1

          I guess this works both ways:

          My understanding of what the psychologist from the link above was saying is if we don't acknowledge peoples feelings, then that feeling (of anger) stays with them, and they are less likely to be open to logic and new information

          If a rowdy mob comes into "town" causing trouble, disruption over many weeks (on tax and rate-payers costs), they have to understand people of that town (and wider region / country) are really angry, too… and people are still waiting for acknowledgement by and apology from the protesters for "shitting in their backyard".

          And where does the government drawing a line on this one:

          If the Govt brings in a piece of legislation that has a major impact on peoples circumstances, I think they have a duty to listen to them.

          Do they have to listen to each and every one of them? Do they have to listen to 51%, 66%, 90% or even 99.9% of the people? Was there ever a legislation with nearly 100% support?

    • Robert Guyton 5.2

      Will you acknowledge the emotions of the white supremacy guys?

      Are you offended by their being labeled "mad" and "bad"?

      In all fairness, you will be, yes?

      • Anker 5.2.1

        Robert Guyton to answer your question about White Supremists and acknoleging their feelings the answer for me is I don't know. I would take advice from the clever forensic psychologist people on that one. I have never come across a white supremicist in my life. I think when I have come across prejudice, the best approach is to ask questions in a way that makes people have to reflect on their views and account for them. If you shut them done, then they are left with their prejudice, which goes unchallenged.

        It is interested that on the left there is a "don't give a shit about their feelings" at one end of the spectrum and at the other, "they hurt my feelings lets cancel them"

        a mid way is surely best?

        • Robert Guyton 5.2.1.1

          Thanks, Anker. There were people among the protest crowd that held white supremist views, including violent intentions toward politicians.

          Should those politicians have met, in person, with those people?

          • Sacha 5.2.1.1.1

            'You seem angry and deranged. Hang on, put down that club.'

            Feelings are not the only thing in the world.

        • Visubversa 5.2.1.2

          The chap from the "occupation" who posted that "when this is over and we win I am going to eat Neve" – deserves nothing but contempt. Likewise the crowd of losers who live up the road from me and have had misogynistic and anti-vax conspiracy nonsense painted on their van for months. They live in what could be called "transitional" housing -a bunch of portacabins plonked in an old car yard with a shared kitchen and bathroom. The Police are there regularly. They were at the occupation – which was probably the most exciting thing that they have done since their last drug deal.

  6. Rosemary McDonald 6

    And on the topic of alienating and marginalising the angry and disenfranchised….

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/300647265/veteran-officer-leaves-police-for-new-life-as-a-tractor-salesman

    A better than average piece from Stuffed, and rather than doing the reading for you ….I'll copy and paste the gist and leave it to the veteran cop to speak for himself.

    Well worth reading the entire piece as this cop has had the experience and done the hard yards when it comes to engaging with communities.

    Nine nights at the anti-vaccine mandate protest in Wellington prompted a veteran Taranaki police officer to seek a new start.

    For much of the 32 years, two months and two days former senior constable Jono Erwood, of Stratford, spent in the police he loved it.

    But he was already thinking about a change in career when he was called on to help at the occupation on Parliament grounds.

    Being amongst the hatred and conflict during the 23-day protest in Wellington in February only set that in stone.

    “New Zealanders are better than what I saw there and experienced,” he said.

    “Over those nights I had some good chats with some guys about why they were there, understanding and showing some empathy, treating them with respect.

    “There were some people with genuine reasons for being there, some good people, but there were others who just wanted to have a crack at the police.”

    Erwood said he felt the prime minister’s refusal to meet with the protestors occupying Parliament grounds had made things worse.

    “I think Jacinda could have dealt with the situation better. If I have a problem with someone, I’ll go to see them and have a cup of tea. She never gave them an opportunity, never went to just listen – but then, hindsight is a wonderful thing,” he said.

    During the protest, Ardern said focussing on the pandemic was top of her mind and the extremist language emanating from the protest was why the Government had refused to talk to the protesters.

    As the protest went on, every party in Parliament also signed on to a joint-statement saying they will not talk to the convoy protesters until they stop breaking the law.

    • DB Brown 6.1

      "She never gave them an opportunity, never went to just listen"

      Rosemary, there was a rich vein of filth, if not a river, in that particular protest. Some of them were making death threats, some were making death lists. To paint it as a crowd of the misunderstood is dishonest.

      Q-anon, white supremacists, Trump flags (just why?) & Tamaki's twisted theocracy thrown in with some anti-vax, anti-science, tin foil hats…

      Sure in hindsight some things could have been done better but this was a mob of disparate ideologies thrown together by opportunistic assholes. Talking to that crowd would be like trying to talk Trump supporters off their ledge. Provide facts for one thing they scream another idiotic bumper sticker dreamed up by Alex Jones (or add wingnut media here) at you. Just endless chaos.

      Aligning with them was the mistake genuine protestors made.

      • RosieLee 6.1.1

        yes

      • Sanctuary 6.1.3

        Personally I would find it difficult to imagine any circumstance where I could have had a constructive meeting with a bunch of unhinged lunatics who had spent weeks brandishing a noose whilst muttering my name when they were not howling various cray cray conspiracy theories not rooted in any sort of objective reality.

        But maybe that is just me. Maybe.

        • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.3.1

          The Left, eh, and their violence.

          https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/02/20/guest-blog-suzie-dawson-remembering-the-left/

          I don't know. The noose or the guillotine?

          I am struggling to understand how it is all fine and dandy for the so- called Left to behead life sized photographs of sitting MPs who are on a mission to sell off state assets, but it is completely unacceptable for the injured and frightened to visually remind an unsympathetic government and their pet media that in the not too distant past those who forced experimental medical treatments onto people were resoundingly punished.

      • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.4

        You were there? In Wellington? Or some very close to you who you can trust to give an accurate assessment of the type of people who were there?

        Did you perhaps watch/listen/read anything about the protest that didn't originate from MSM?

        Or are you simply parroting what the government and their paid stenographers broadcast?

        And what would the cop in the article know…eh? The one who was there…on the ground…speaking with the protestors…the good, the bad and the downright ugly?

        The vast majority of those assembled in Wellington were peaceful, and wanted an end to the unjustified vaccine mandates and recognition that for some, too many, the Pfizer product is anything but safe.

        A very successful campaign by the government and their paid up media ensured that these voices were silenced, and the rantings of the small minority of nutbars was amplified.

        A tactic as old as politics.

        • Sanctuary 6.1.4.1

          Well this is NZ, so I had two nieces who had daily views of the Wellington “protest” from their daily grind as worthy and conscientious civil servants zombie enablers of the dark combinations of the illuminati.

          One thought it an unsanitary and pointless outdoor commentary on two decades of under investment in mental health and the other was abused on three occasions walking to walk so was an early and enthusiastic advocate for the use of extreme police violence to clear them out.

        • DB Brown 6.1.4.2

          I know half a dozen of the protestors who were there, and others who blindly support them. They lost touch with reality some time ago. They speak in a hodge podge of half facts they glean from ridiculous right-wing 'media', religion and outright conspiracy.

          One, who's known me so long he absolutely knows better, accused me of being a government shill.

          Plot – lost.

          All the folks with genuine concerns found themselves shiny new friends online. Not happy with the official narrative, they let themselves be led by the nose into forming a mob. An abusive mob.

          Lie with dogs, get fleas, etc.

        • weka 6.1.4.3

          The vast majority of those assembled in Wellington were peaceful

          To save us all the tedium of going round and round the same old argument, can yoi please present the evidence you to support that statement?

          The argument here isn't that there weren't good people at the protest. It's that there were people there causing a lot of different problems alongside the good ones, and the good ones didn't address that and still don't/won't.

          Your comments consistently come across as denial that problematic people exist/ed.

          • weka 6.1.4.3.1

            Did you perhaps watch/listen/read anything about the protest that didn't originate from MSM?

            Yes, I did. I followed people on twitter who were on the ground.

            I'll also point out that the MSM isn't a hive mind, and reading MSM increases one's understanding of the situation where one has a critical mind and an ability to parse bias.

            Did you read much MSM coverage that took a more evenhanded approach?

            How come you seem largely unaware of the problems within the protest?

            • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.4.3.1.1

              How come you seem largely unaware of the problems within the protest?

              I am responding to just this question…to nutshell the issue. I have seeds to sow and seedlings to prick out and plants to water and sheep to tend.

              How about you show me where exactly I have stated that all the Freedom Village protestors were peaceful and non violent? You won't be able to, because I have never said that.

              I have said that the overwhelming majority were. Peaceful. This is a fact that even the police and security services acknowledged.

              https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-wellington-protest-security-service-reports-detail-realistic-possibility-of-terror-attack-threat-from-peaceful-anti-vax-movement/TD6G32WUBVNAL7D2TRLHLNJT5Q/

              Intelligence assessments into the anti-vax movement say there is a "realistic possibility" a violent protest or terrorist act could be carried out by extremist elements linked to the "overwhelmingly peaceful" opposition to the Covid-19 vaccine.

              Four separate assessments into the anti-vax movements show a shift in concern from February last year through to November.

              And the reports, released through the Official Information Act, show an escalation in warnings from June onwards with the prediction Covid-19 "mitigation" efforts – vaccine mandates and passports – would be "likely to have an impact on the New Zealand terrorism threat environment over the near-to medium-term".

              While the intelligence reports repeatedly emphasise the broadly peaceful nature of the anti-vax movements, they highlight the vaccine mandates and passport as particular policies that might drive an individual to violence and the presence of extremist elements.

              The contrast between June and November is striking as the earlier CTAG assessments predicted any acts of violence as likely to be "an isolated instance of violent protest rather than an act of terrorism".

              By November, CTAG found the risk exacerbated by increasingly violent online rhetoric and people among anti-vax groups with personal grievances and extremist beliefs.

              The assessments accurately forecasted growing social division and protest if New Zealand went down the path of mandates and vaccine passports.

              The reports – or at least the content – would have been made available to Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and at least some Cabinet ministers ahead of making the decision to pursue the mandates and vaccine passports. It shows the decision to forge ahead with a public health approach wasn't made without knowledge it could spark strong opposition.
              The Prime Minister's office did not respond to a request for comment.

              I have posted this particular article here on TS a couple of times. (As evidence that I do read mainstream media) This is not indicative of me being in denial that there were undesirable elements and influences at the periphery of the Freedom Village.

              The government were warned that imposing mandates would create an environment ripe for growing protest and civil unrest. And violence.

              But the government went ahead and imposed the mandates anyway, with no acknowledgement of those who had already rolled their sleeves up and been injured in the process. There were threats that jobs would be lost, and participation in normal society would be denied.

              And Jacinda the Kind gloated…she poured petrol on smouldering embers, and gloated. Only fools would not expect a backlash after this standout performance.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdMSRolWCyQ&t=1s

        • Robert Guyton 6.1.4.4

          Rosemary – regarding an audience with the PM – surely it was the responsibility of the non-violent, non-threat-making, non-aligned-with-dangerous-elements folk who wished to meet with the MPs and PM, to differentiate themselves, distance themselves from those elements that should not be granted such a meeting?

          Did the "good guys" do that, making it clear to the politicians that the meeting would not endanger them? If that didn't happen (I believe it didn't happen) then the failure to broker such a meeting sits with the "good" protesters, not the parliamentarians, imo. I'd like to hear your view on this.

          • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.4.4.1

            Of course some groups tried to get the attention of the House…with the view to speak on behalf of the vaccine injured and those medial professionals with real concerns about the mRNA shots and the measurable negative effects of lockdowns and mask wearing for all. All MPs were instructed not to engage with the river of filth.

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-convoy-protest-trevor-mallard-outlines-terms-for-mps-to-engage-with-protesters/AK4RTKQFCN3KOXK7RSLVECMVIE/

            I think you know this already.

            • Robert Guyton 6.1.4.4.1.1

              My question was (and still is) did those groups clearly dissociate themselves from the mad fringe?

              If not, being rejected by the politicians is hardly a surprise.

              Keen for your answer.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                This is tedious Robert.

                Did the 'good protestors' disassociate themselves from the 'bad' ones? What do you think… yourself being a veteran of many protests? Where all and sundry are free to attend?

                There was a sign on the gate exhorting all to come in peace and love.

                What does that imply?

                • Robert Guyton

                  Perhaps I wasn't clear, Rosemary, sorry.

                  I mean: when the protest leaders were pressing the Government for a meeting, did those protest leaders/organizers, in a gesture of good faith and wise strategy, describe the threatening element of the protest and distance themselves from them and their threatening behaviour, in order that the Government might feel safe in entering into face to face meetings?

        • Stan 6.1.4.5

          Hi, Rosemary

          There's no evidence currently that the vaccine has caused the widespread harm that you state. There's a long list of possible side effects which have been well documented but the vaccine is as safe/safer than most of the currently available common vaccines for other illness.

          I know it's only anecdotal, but in my day to day work, I see the usual mix of illness and injury from all causes. I have seen significant numbers of very sick patients with COVID (who have needed antiviral medication, admission to hospital, sometimes ICU care), as well as flu and RSV. I have also seen a few very strange illnesses brought on by COVID that I've ever seen with flu or any of the other respiratory viruses so I think there's still a lot we will find out in the future about COVID infection that we don't know.

          I've seen large numbers of patients with with COVID vaccine side effects but zero serious illness arising from it; I've seen none of the deaths that the COVID vaccine-sceptics allege are in huge numbers throughout the country.

          Should this change, and COVID vaccine is found to be as harmful as you think it is, I (and all the other frontline workers) will be the first to change our views. I hope that vaccine sceptics like you will be able to listen to those who are in the best place to know.

          • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.4.5.1

            ….but the vaccine is as safe/safer than most of the currently available common vaccines for other illness.

            Interesting you state this as fact.

            You have checked out the CARM reports for both the Pfizer product and the flu shots? And seen that the per- dose adverse effect reporting rate is many times higher for the Pfizer shot?

            Anedotally…the people I know who have had serious adverse effects from the Pfizer product, and who will never risk another shot, have all had many other 'available common vaccines.'

            With nothing other than a sore arm in the way of adverse effects.

            As a 'frontline worker, can you tell me who is collecting data specifically from those of us who have not partaken of the Pfizer product and have had Covid 19 and have clearly failed to succumb? Is anyone out there in medical land at all interested in our Covid 19 experiences?

            Since there is no longer an actual control group for the Pfizer product (since the original trials were unblinded and the placebo group offered the shot) there is, to my knowledge, no official comparison being made between the two groups.

            Pity…medical science has been poorly served here.

          • Sabine 6.1.4.5.2

            at least three people are 'considered' to have died about it, considered as they died pretty much after their shot.

            https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/465103/ministry-of-health-announces-third-death-linked-to-vaccine

            that is easily found via google.

            Being safer does not mean people will have issues with it. And we should be able to discuss this without poopoo'ing peole who have a different opinion on what safe means to them.

            Fwiw, i know a whole heep your young women who are enjoying longer periods, heavier bleeding, blood clots the size of two dollar coins etc etc etc since their three jabs. But i guess those that don't menstruate might not consider this a harmful side effect.

            • Incognito 6.1.4.5.2.1

              at least three people are 'considered' to have died about it, considered as they died pretty much after their shot. [my italics]

              That sounds like they died on the spot, which is false/misleading, as myocarditis takes time to develop to a fatal stage (although it can be remarkably fast). Your link mentions death a week after vaccination.

              The Centre for Adverse Reactions Monitoring (CARM) has received a number of reports of menstrual disorders or unexpected vaginal bleeding following vaccination with Comirnaty. Medsafe conducted a full review of the cases, as well as the international published literature, and post-marketing safety reports provided by the Sponsor (Pfizer). No evidence was found to suggest a link between vaccination with Comirnaty and menstrual disorders.

              https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/safety/Alerts/comirnaty-menstrual-disorders.asp

              Monitoring ongoing.

              Summary of reported deaths

              Up to and including 30 June 2022, a total of 171 deaths were reported to CARM after the administration of the Comirnaty vaccine. Following medical assessments by CARM and Medsafe it has been determined that:

              • 137 of these deaths are unlikely related to the COVID-19 vaccine
              • 23 deaths could not be assessed due to insufficient information
              • 8 cases are still under investigation.
              • 1 death was determined by the Coroner to be due to myocarditis following first dose Covid-19 (Pfizer) vaccination.
              • 2 deaths were likely due to vaccine induced myocarditis (awaiting Coroner’s determination).

              https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-44.asp

      • It's a bit like saying the Jews should have personally spoken to Hitler and politely told him he was wrong and to leave them alone. (Not quite sure that's the right image I'm trying to convey!) Perhaps more like the Jan. 6 protestors wanting to speak to the President – no, that’s not quite what I have in mind either! lol

        The only thing Jacinda could have told them was – Go home!

        I can image how that would have gone down!

        • Anne 6.1.5.1

          She did tell them to “Go home!” Time and time again. A few of the more sane among them took her advice. With a wooden gallows with her name on it in front of Parliament for all to see, there's no way her security detail would have let her go near them. And rightfully so!

          • Belladonna 6.1.5.1.1

            Yes. And I'm sure that the powers-that-be told the anti-Springbok Tour protesters to "Go Home!" multiple times as well.

            With, I'm sure, equal success.

            Regardless of the rhetoric of some of the protesters – it's is undeniable that there were plenty of people who'd never been on a political protest in their lives before. Who packed up their kids, pets and lives, and went down to Wellington to express their profound disapproval of the actions of the Government.

            Whether they were 'right' or 'wrong' really doesn't matter. What matters is that they were (and many still are) profoundly convinced that they had a grievance over the way they had been treated by the Government.

            Telling them to "Go Home!" is utterly dismissive of them and their concerns. And simply fosters the divisions in NZ society.

            Talking to people (even people you dislike and/or think are misguided, pig-headed and just plain wrong) is part of what politicians have to do.

            • Anne 6.1.5.1.1.1

              Yes. And I'm sure that the powers-that-be told the anti-Springbok Tour protesters to "Go Home!" multiple times as well.

              False equivalence if ever there was one.

              Telling them to "Go Home!" is utterly dismissive of them and their concerns. And simply fosters the divisions in NZ society.

              Jacinda Ardern did not tell them to "Go home – exclamation mark." That is a false innuendo. She was asked by reporters and journalists to the effect "Have you a message for the protesters?" On the basis it was an illegal protest, she advised them to "go home." She said it in a calm, measured and respectful tone of voice.

              I suggest misrepresenting the prime minister's response to a question is fostering divisions in society.

            • Sacha 6.1.5.1.1.2

              Telling them to “Go Home!” is utterly dismissive of them and their concerns. And simply fosters the divisions in NZ society.

              We are talking about a movement deliberately fostering social division and unrest, drawing on overseas tactics and finance. The parliamentary occupation was hardly a one-off.

              Politicians refusing to talk with agitators spouting nonsense and threatening violence is not 'fostering division'. There is no security service in the world who would allow a national leader to sit down with those particular people, no matter how many oblivious hippies were alongside them singing and crapping on the lawn.

              Do you seriously expect any rational conversation would emerge? Or is it just about helping Tamaki and the nazi hangers-on feel better that they have been heard? We have seen how appeasing fascists turns out. No thanks.

    • Robert Guyton 6.2

      "And on the topic of alienating and marginalising the angry and disenfranchised…."

      So, Rosemary, do you feel the white supremists, "angry and disenfranchised", should be accorded the same courtesy as you recommend above?

      • Ad 6.2.1

        Ardern's tactic over 5 years is: never allow anyone else control the media message. Especially not dirty people.

        She's a lot worse than Clark or Key for that: exceedingly brittle.

        Ardern is now really struggling to generate any kind of persona different from a set-piece wonder in front of a mike stand – which she did for over a year. Then did more set-piece mike stand wonder for three months this year on the international circuit.

        She won't speak to oiks if she doesn't have comms control – and never will.

        • Robert Guyton 6.2.1.1

          When you write, "oiks" do you mean those folk who carried a gallows to the steps of Parliament?

          Those "oiks"?

    • Populuxe1 6.3

      That's weird. When I want the PM to hear me I email her office.
      You could try a letter if you're more traditional – postage is free to Parliament.

  7. Anker 7

    Thanks Rosemary. This cops story support what the psychologist was saying in the interview.

    • Visubversa 7.1

      Don't forget the number of Police deaths following the Jan 6 invasion of the Capitol. Nobody with half a brain is going to put the blame for those on the other defenders of American democratic processes.

      • Nordy 7.1.1

        You need to remember V you aren't engaging with logic or rational argument. It's a waste of time trying to explain the facts or use logic when those you are responding to aren't.

  8. AB 8

    Went into Farro in Grey Lynn (2nd time ever) on Saturday. Nice place to shop, the way food shopping should be and might have been if we had stopped supermarkets in their tracks 50 years ago. Quality stuff but scarily expensive. Nobody unmasked. Zero. The rich didn't get rich by being irrational.

    • Belladonna 8.1

      Yep, I shop at Farro …. with care. It's great for some things (excellent quality meat and cheeses) – but I do the bulk of the grocery shop at Pak n Save.
      Just too expensive, otherwise….

      Was there on Sunday – at the Constellation Drive store – majority masked – but not all.

      A couple of the specialist food shops that I go to occasionally (when the weekend uber-service-for-the-teen takes me in that direction), require masking to enter. I guess that they are sufficiently secure in their customer base, that they can afford to do so.
      They do offer a call in and pay online service, with pick up on a table outside – if you are unable to mask for any reason.

      Hearing anecdotally from friends in retail, that abuse from the public over requests for mask-wearing is continuing and accelerating – both in highly wealthy areas – Parnell/Remers, etc., and in more middle-class ones (if anything in Auckland can be called middle class, these days!). They're just not willing to have their staff cop the abuse – and nor should they have to.

      Observationally – mask-wearing is continuing to drop in general.

      • Visubversa 8.1.1

        Pak'n'Save Mt Albert this morning – store very busy – saw 2 people only without masks.

        • Belladonna 8.1.1.1

          At Glenfield Mall this afternoon (had to drop in and collect something from a shop) – approx 10% masked…..

  9. Nordy 9

    I see NRT has made the elementary mistake in the 'plugging to loophole' item available on the feeds of thinking the donations court case on currently is prosecuting either National or Labour. It isn't. It is a prosecution against people who made or facilitated donations.

    • Belladonna 9.1

      The loophole (hopefully) being plugged has nothing to do the case/s currently in court.

      It's entirely due to the horse-and-cart-sized gap in the legislation that the NZF case revealed.

      [I still believe that the judge was wrong in his interpretation of the law – but belt-and-braces – better to legislatively and finally close any apparant loophole]

      All parties (or at least all of the ones currently in parliament) are in agreement that this needs to be stopped very firmly indeed. They're only in disagreement about the legal mechanism for doing so (Labour/Greens want to use their current bill; National/Act don't agree with the matters already covered in that bill, and want a separate piece of legislation they can support 100%).

      The current case is primarily prosecuting the donors, but also insiders within the parties who facilitated the deception.

      Zhang was aided by people on the inside. For the National Party, that was Ross; for the Labour Party, it was one of the men with name suppression and the woman.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/129380629/paintings-wine-coverups-and-a-royal-honour–crowns-case-in-political-party-donations-trial

      • Nordy 9.1.1

        NRT incorrectly stated Labour Party officials are currently being prosecuted. They aren't. The link to a press item to the current case is a description of party officials giving evidence as witnesses (not being prosecuted).

        • Belladonna 9.1.1.1

          Given that the Labour party ‘insiders’ all (apparently) have name suppression – you must have some inside knowledge to state so categorically that they are not Labour Party officials.

          • Nordy 9.1.1.1.1

            No – I just know how to read and not to make things up.

            • Belladonna 9.1.1.1.1.1

              Categorically saying that the case isn't prosecuting either National or Labour – is a bit disingenuous.

              Because there are very clearly people who 'used to be' party members (I'm sure they've very quickly been given the boot) from both National (JL Ross) and Labour (people with name suppression) who are facing charges alongside the donors.

              There is no way that the donors invented this scenario themselves – there were bagmen within the parties who were handling and facilitating this evasion of Electoral law donation reporting requirements.

              It may be sloppy language/usage from NRT – but your statement doesn't pass the sniff test, either.

              • Nordy

                Keep changing your story and you might eventually get to what I actually said about the NRT comment.

                • Belladonna

                  Keep dodging and diving, and you just might approach reality.

                  You can only keep pretending that Labour is perfect for so long…..

                  Your quote
                  ” prosecuting either National or Labour. It isn’t. It is a prosecution against people who made or facilitated donations.”

                  Reality: The people being prosecuted include both the donors and people who were (at the time) inside the party facilitating the donations.

                  There are no clean hands here….

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    There are no clean hands here….

                    It can be a mucky business, Politics; dirty even.

                  • Nordy

                    No one is suggesting the Labour Party is perfect. This case is a case against individuals, not political parties. The fact that party officials are testifying as witness supports this. If you have evidence that the two parties (including their officials) are on trial then why don't you provide it, rather than speculating, as NRT did. Finally, if those with name suppression turn out to be party members (I don't know whether that is the case) that does not mean that the political parties were guilty of anything. Asserting they are is simply a further example of misinformation, which is sadly all too common these days.

  10. Stuart Munro 10

    The mis and disinformation surge has attracted a fair amount of serious treatment here in NZ, in part no doubt due to events like the Christchurch shooting.

    The Royal Society has had a couple of decent speakers on the matter.

    I encourage people to familiarize themselves with the Disinformation Project, who have put out some study on the occupation of Parliament grounds, and continue to monitor what seem to be a group of bad and/or foreign actors.

    Byron Clark also has a well researched article on the occupation, which, oddly, even has links to the New Federal State of China campaign.

    • AB 10.1

      Looks like wedge politics to me. A tactic for splitting the left that's as old as the hills. When you go to TBD and hear people who consider themselves to be the 'real' left sounding like right wing libertarians, you know something is afoot.

      • Stuart Munro 10.1.1

        If so, it's a new variant – Trumpism seems to be a factor.

        The Murdochization of our media has chained the watchdogs that once guarded our state from malicious actions of this kind.

  11. Ad 11

    So here's a question for you pundit prophets.

    GDP growth is unstable but still good.

    Gross domestic product: March 2022 quarter | Stats NZ

    Unemployment is very low at 3.2% with underutilisation at 9%.

    Unemployment rate remains at 3.2 percent | Stats NZ

    But now the borders have flung open to our inbound tourists as of 29 July. So demand for tourism jobs and travel jobs is skyrocketing.

    Thousands of roles up for grabs at Auckland Airport job fair (1news.co.nz)

    And competition between companies for staff is just massive.

    We're going to have to start pulling more out of NEETS, long term welfare dependency, and jail to do good stuff.

    So can we get to 2.5% unemployed?

    • Stuart Munro 11.1

      So can we get to 2.5% unemployed?

      Easily – once wages and conditions catch up with employer rhetoric.

      To date desperate shortages of workers have not caused a lot of pay bumps – it's more common to get one by changing employers than to be offered one in situ.

      • Belladonna 11.1.1

        Not sure what you mean by pay bumps. Friends in hospo are advertising and willing to pay more than $25/hr for kitchen hands, and dishwashers (no experience, just a work ethic – i.e. turn up for their shift)
        It's a heck of a lot better than minimum wage or jobseeker benefit.

        • Sabine 11.1.1.1

          Do as Tamati Coffey and his partner did, just sell the lease. Let someone else do that. Btw, that lease got sold to some Non Kiwis who are going to put a US Franchise – some rip of Mexican pre-cooked, deep frozen food. You don't really need any staff for that.

          • Belladonna 11.1.1.1.1

            I know nothing about Coffey – but know how much strain and pressure that friends in hospo in Auckland have been under in the last couple of years.

            Can absolutely understand that it becomes too much, and people want out.

            And, yes, lots of hospo businesses fail – and there's an argument that we're exploiting low-wage workers when we dine out (at restaurants keeping prices low).

            But what's the alternative — that we only have mega chains (which, BTW have salaries at the rock bottom) and high-priced tourist-dollar fine dining (which I certainly can't afford to go to regularly)?

            • Sabine 11.1.1.1.1.1

              He and his partner had two Hospo businesses in Vegas on Eat Street. Did ok until they kicked out a lady for not wearing a mask and in the end the town stopped going there. So they sold their lease. It was bigly in the Herald. The reason i say they sold their lease is because if you sell your business usually the name / theme stays. The indian fellow how bought Tamati and his partner out of the 'Our house' and 'Ponsonby' bars will gut the places and put in a US American Franchise that serves gentrified mexican food.

              Fwiw, Tamati killed his business by kicking out a Maori lady and it did not go well with the locals.

              Yes, when the re-alignment is finished that is what you will have, fast food for the masses and very high priced fatty beef for the rich.

            • Grant 11.1.1.1.1.2

              It’s not just about money, although until the minimum wage rises hospo workers were certainly underpaid. It is much more about the bullying, and generally abusive behaviour which is widespread practise by owners and managers and which has been acknowledged publicly by senior players in the restaurant business. This is what really affects the quality of life for people on the bottom rung in hospo. Many of them are permanently sad if not clinically depressed about having to go and spend another shift being treated like shit. I watched my daughters experience in this ‘industry’ for over a decade; heard her work stories and tried to comfort her as the tears fell. I tried to talk her into resigning (after counselling her on how to manage the toxic behaviours failed) , but she was too proud to go on the dole so continued jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire for years as she tried to find a good employer and a workplace with a non-toxic culture. I suppose such places must exist but locating them is a little like trying to translate lead into gold. I have a very jaundiced view of the personality types who decide to invest in an industry which is known to operate on such a perverse business model.

              • Belladonna

                What's on offer ATM is a heck of a lot more than minimum wage.

                I agree that some hospo businesses have been dire for bullying and staff welfare (some are good – others often absolutely appalling).

                The good news about the worker shortage is that workers can get some of the issues addressed – or just pick up their pay cheque and shift to a better workplace. Or out of the industry into something else (all of those customer-service skills are highly transferrable).

                Most of the people I know in hospo are working in small restaurants/cafes/bakeries (just one in a high-profile restaurant) – these are the local businesses that I support, and want to keep running. They improve the quality of my life and my community.

  12. Sabine 12

    New Zealand has a shortage in synthetic estrogen. Woot Woot!

    I am on hormone replacement therapy thanks to a hysterectomy blablabla……

    Today i take my refill to the pharmacy and was advised to call well before my patches run out to get a refill as they can not guarantee that they can fill that prescription.

    Oh well. I guess its just the times.

  13. Joe90 13

    Ethnic Russians remain safely tucked up at home while poor minorities from the colonies autonomous regions do all the suffering and dying.

    Sounds familiar.

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1553773561659154434

    https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1553777099634364418

    • arkie 13.1

      It’s not a surprise that military recruitment has regional variance. Here’s another example of it, but with a different framing:

      Looking at each state’s share of recruits by the number of 18-to-24-year-olds in the state determines how well or how poorly a state is doing compared to its recruitable population. By that measure, the top five states in 2016 were: Hawaii, South Carolina, Georgia, Virginia and Florida. The five places with the smallest share of recruits were: Washington D.C., North Dakota, Massachusetts, Rhode Island and New York.

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2020/02/19/states-that-defend-uswhere-do-our-military-volunteers-call-home/?sh=3dfd638c534c

      • Populuxe1 13.1.1

        Except that you're comparing apples and oranges. The US has a voluntary professional military. Russia has compulsory service for all able-bodied males between the ages of 18 and 28.

        • arkie 13.1.1.1

          In that they are both types of fruit, yes, but okay. What is similar between the two methods of recruiting is independent access to higher education mostly precludes military service; in Russia if you are a student you aren't subject to conscription and there are numerous other legal ways to avoid it.

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  • I Think I'm Done Flying Boeing
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    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    6 days ago
  • Invoking Aristotle: Of Rings of Power, Stones, and Ships
    The first season of Rings of Power was not awful. It was thoroughly underwhelming, yes, and left a lingering sense of disappointment, but it was more expensive mediocrity than catastrophe. I wrote at length about the series as it came out (see the Review section of the blog, and go ...
    6 days ago
  • Van Velden brings free-market approach to changing labour laws – but her colleagues stick to distr...
    Buzz from the Beehive Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden told Auckland Business Chamber members they were the first audience to hear her priorities as a minister in a government committed to cutting red tape and regulations. She brandished her liberalising credentials, saying Flexible labour markets are the ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • Why Newshub failed
    Chris Trotter writes – TO UNDERSTAND WHY NEWSHUB FAILED, it is necessary to understand how TVNZ changed. Up until 1989, the state broadcaster had been funded by a broadcasting licence fee, collected from every citizen in possession of a television set, supplemented by a relatively modest (compared ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • Māori Party on the warpath against landlords and seabed miners – let’s see if mystical creature...
    Bob Edlin writes  –  The Māori Party has been busy issuing a mix of warnings and threats as its expresses its opposition to interest deductibility for landlords and the plans of seabed miners. It remains to be seen whether they  follow the example of indigenous litigants in Australia, ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago

  • Government moves to quickly ratify the NZ-EU FTA
    "The Government is moving quickly to realise an additional $46 million in tariff savings in the EU market this season for Kiwi exporters,” Minister for Trade and Agriculture, Todd McClay says. Parliament is set, this week, to complete the final legislative processes required to bring the New Zealand – European ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 hours ago
  • Positive progress for social worker workforce
    New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    8 hours ago
  • Minister confirms reduced RUC rate for PHEVs
    Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    10 hours ago
  • Trade access to overseas markets creates jobs
    Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand.  Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    10 hours ago
  • NZ and Chinese Foreign Ministers hold official talks
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    24 hours ago
  • Kāinga Ora instructed to end Sustaining Tenancies
    Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber: Growth is the answer
    Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Singapore rounds out regional trip
    Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships.      “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Minister van Velden represents New Zealand at International Democracy Summit
    Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Insurance Council of NZ Speech, 7 March 2024, Auckland
    ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland  Acknowledgements and opening  Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho.  Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau  My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Five-year anniversary of Christchurch terror attacks
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says.  “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024
    Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024  Acknowledgements and opening  Morena, Nga Mihi Nui.  Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Thanks Nate for your Mihi Whakatau  Good morning. It’s a pleasure to formally open your conference this morning. What a lovely day in Wellington, What a great ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Early visit to Indonesia strengthens ties
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country.   “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • China Foreign Minister to visit
    Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week.  “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Minister opens new Auckland Rail Operations Centre
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Celebrating 10 years of Crankworx Rotorua
    The Government is proud to support the 10th edition of Crankworx Rotorua as the Crankworx World Tour returns to Rotorua from 16-24 March 2024, says Minister for Economic Development Melissa Lee.  “Over the past 10 years as Crankworx Rotorua has grown, so too have the economic and social benefits that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government delivering on tax commitments
    Legislation implementing coalition Government tax commitments and addressing long-standing tax anomalies will be progressed in Parliament next week, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The legislation is contained in an Amendment Paper to the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill issued today.  “The Amendment Paper represents ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Significant Natural Areas requirement to be suspended
    Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard has today announced that the Government has agreed to suspend the requirement for councils to comply with the Significant Natural Areas (SNA) provisions of the National Policy Statement for Indigenous Biodiversity for three years, while it replaces the Resource Management Act (RMA).“As it stands, SNAs ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government classifies drought conditions in Top of the South as medium-scale adverse event
    Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has classified the drought conditions in the Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts as a medium-scale adverse event, acknowledging the challenging conditions facing farmers and growers in the district. “Parts of Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts are in the grip of an intense dry spell. I know ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government partnership to tackle $332m facial eczema problem
    The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced.  “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • NZ, India chart path to enhanced relationship
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has completed a successful visit to India, saying it was an important step in taking the relationship between the two countries to the next level.   “We have laid a strong foundation for the Coalition Government’s priority of enhancing New Zealand-India relations to generate significant future benefit for both countries,” says Mr Peters, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Ruapehu Alpine Lifts bailout the last, say Ministers
    Cabinet has agreed to provide $7 million to ensure the 2024 ski season can go ahead on the Whakapapa ski field in the central North Island but has told the operator Ruapehu Alpine Lifts it is the last financial support it will receive from taxpayers. Cabinet also agreed to provide ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Govt takes action to drive better cancer services
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Govt takes action to drive better cancer services
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
    Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
    Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Fresh produce price drop welcome
    Lower fruit and vegetable prices are welcome news for New Zealanders who have been doing it tough at the supermarket, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Stats NZ reported today the price of fruit and vegetables has dropped 9.3 percent in the 12 months to February 2024.  “Lower fruit and vege ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Statement to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women
    Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all.  Chair, I am honoured to address the sixty-eighth session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women (CSW68)
    Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all.  Chair, I am honoured to address the 68th session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government backs rural led catchment projects
    The coalition Government is supporting farmers to enhance land management practices by investing $3.3 million in locally led catchment groups, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “Farmers and growers deliver significant prosperity for New Zealand and it’s vital their ongoing efforts to improve land management practices and water quality are supported,” ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber
    Good evening everyone and thank you for that lovely introduction.   Thank you also to the Honourable Simon Bridges for the invitation to address your members. Since being sworn in, this coalition Government has hit the ground running with our 100-day plan, delivering the changes that New Zealanders expect of us. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Commission’s advice on ETS settings tabled
    Recommendations from the Climate Change Commission for New Zealand on the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) auction and unit limit settings for the next five years have been tabled in Parliament, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “The Commission provides advice on the ETS annually. This is the third time the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government lowering building costs
    The coalition Government is beginning its fight to lower building costs and reduce red tape by exempting minor building work from paying the building levy, says Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk. “Currently, any building project worth $20,444 including GST or more is subject to the building levy which is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Trustee tax change welcomed
    Proposed changes to tax legislation to prevent the over-taxation of low-earning trusts are welcome, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The changes have been recommended by Parliament’s Finance and Expenditure Committee following consideration of submissions on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill. “One of the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister’s Ramadan message
    Assalaamu alaikum. السَّلَام عليكم In light of the holy month of Ramadan, I want to extend my warmest wishes to our Muslim community in New Zealand. Ramadan is a time for spiritual reflection, renewed devotion, perseverance, generosity, and forgiveness.  It’s a time to strengthen our bonds and appreciate the diversity ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister appoints new NZTA Chair
    Former Transport Minister and CEO of the Auckland Business Chamber Hon Simon Bridges has been appointed as the new Board Chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) for a three-year term, Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced today. “Simon brings extensive experience and knowledge in transport policy and governance to the role. He will ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech to Life Sciences Summit
    Good morning all, it is a pleasure to be here as Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology.  It is fantastic to see how connected and collaborative the life science and biotechnology industry is here in New Zealand. I would like to thank BioTechNZ and NZTech for the invitation to address ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Progress continues apace on water storage
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says he is looking forward to the day when three key water projects in Northland are up and running, unlocking the full potential of land in the region. Mr Jones attended a community event at the site of the Otawere reservoir near Kerikeri on Friday. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government agrees to restore interest deductions
    Associate Finance Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government has agreed to restore deductibility for mortgage interest on residential investment properties. “Help is on the way for landlords and renters alike. The Government’s restoration of interest deductibility will ease pressure on rents and simplify the tax code,” says ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister to attend World Anti-Doping Agency Symposium
    Sport and Recreation Minister Chris Bishop will travel to Switzerland today to attend an Executive Committee meeting and Symposium of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). Mr Bishop will then travel on to London where he will attend a series of meetings in his capacity as Infrastructure Minister. “New Zealanders believe ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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