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Open mike 01/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 1st, 2021 - 177 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

177 comments on “Open mike 01/11/2021 ”

  1. bwaghorn 1

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300442463/climate-change-target-nowhere-near-as-ambitious-as-it-sounds

    So were going to halve emmisions by taxing kiwis and sending money to Brazil to plant trees?
    Smoke and mirrors

    • Stuart Munro 1.1

      Well, at best exceptionally low quality spending.

      There are really only three places that make sense for NZ remedial planting – the nearby Pacific islands that are constrained by funding from doing it themselves, Australia, that we get smoke from when they screw up, and here in NZ.

      This smacks of the kind of magical thinking that riddles Wellington – low quality exploitable migrants instead of a stable local workforce, trees abroad instead of addressing our own pollution or mitigating the worst of our habitat destruction.

      Shameless.

      • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1

        Come on lets all just be honest here, the last time Labour NZ made a bold, deep fundamental change to this country was in 1984 when they gave us unfettered free market liberalism..the very ideology that is the root of this problem…in light of that fact, does anyone here seriously think that any political party in the world tied to this death cult ideology (like Ardern and NZ Labour) are really going to solve it?…if you do, then you must be either delusional or stupid or maybe both.

        The Anthropocene
        Nuclear Menace, Climate Danger
        https://kpfa.org/episode/against-the-grain-october-18-2021/

        • Ad 1.1.1.1

          MMP put a deliberate stop to that kind of wholesale ideological shift.

          • GreenBus 1.1.1.1.1

            Would MMP also be the worst electoral system to undo the shift?

            • Ad 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Depends which unicameral parliaments with weak regional and local government you are comparing to.

              NZ operates in a pretty narrow ideological band.

          • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1.1.2

            Well you are half right, except for the fact that we are right now, as we speak watching what NZ Labour would/will do if they had the chance to govern alone..and exactly as any critical thinking citizen expected they are performing concisely within the frame work of the Laissez-faire free market ideology that controls ALL of their decisions, which (back to my original point) is why they cannot and will never deal with climate change..it would be like asking a fire department run by arsonists to put out fires.

            I will agree with you on one thing though “NZ operates in a pretty narrow ideological band.” that is exactly right, NZ has only one core political ideology operating within National and Labour …and we all know what that is.

            Turn labour Left!

            • Ad 1.1.1.1.2.1

              There isn't much room for your thinking in any of the parties in parliament for you.

              This is by a long way the most interventionist government we have had since the 1950s, and that scale of state is never coming back.

              • Adrian Thornton

                "There isn't much room for your thinking in any of the parties in parliament for you."

                That will change..of that you can be sure, but whether it is to my way of thinking (or something along those lines) or something from the depraved minds of the right is the only question up in the air at this point…third way liberalism is living on borrowed time, I think we can at least all agree on that?

                There is a generation coming through in the near future who are going to force change on us whether you or I or your liberal cronies like it or not, unfortunately for us and the planet at this point the neo liberals are occupying the space where traditionally the Left should be and sucking nearly all the oxygen out of that sane political path, hence the almost unimpeded rise of Trump, Act and the Right in Western politics in general..this is why, in this critical moment, I regard Neo Liberals as a far greater enemy of a safe progressive future than the Right…because as we all now know (as witnessed in both the UK and the USA), when push comes to shove Neo Liberal Centrists would rather hand power to the Right and burn it all down than lose any of it's power to the Left.

                Turns out Centrists are just as extreme as the the far Right…and here they were, trying to tell us all that we were living in a post ideological world..it would be really fucking funny if the implications of what that actually means for the planet wasn’t so serious

        • garibaldi 1.1.1.2

          Well said AT. Your last sentence "…. you must be either delusional or stupid or maybe both". I think the majority of people tied to this delusion are definitely both, not maybe.

          There seems to be no way out of this "unfettered free market liberalism" that USA and Britain spread as far as possible short of a real Revolution.

          I can remember my father ranting on in 1985 about the sheer lunacy of what Roger Douglas et al were doing. For once he was right!

      • alwyn 1.1.2

        "magical thinking that riddles Wellington"

        As a resident of Wellington I am getting sick and tired of being lumped in with the idiots in the current Government who are doing these things. There are more members of the current Government who are from Auckland than there are from Wellington, so stop blaming all the people who live here for the criminally incompetent behaviour of the Labour Party hacks (and a couple of Green clots) is totally unfair.

        • Tricledrown 1.1.2.1

          Alwyn maybe you should move to a utopia that reflects your personality Texas Florida Brazil a former eastern block dictatorship.

          Or just get out of politics and find a new purpose in life where you don't have to punish yourself by being consumed by an unnatural addiction to a rigid ideology.

          • Stephen Doyle 1.1.2.1.1

            Somalia is nice this times of year. Low(if any) taxes, little bureaucracy. Alwyn should love it there.

        • Stuart Munro 1.1.2.2

          It is the civil service, and especially Treasury, that is to blame for much of this dysfunction, their supposed political masters being largely epiphenomena rippling across the surface of their embedded ineptitude. These folk are the public face of Wellington – there is no better way to improve Wellington's public image than to have them abandon their egregious neoliberal superstitions for pragmatic public interest policies that might even actually work.

          • Ad 1.1.2.2.1

            It is the civil service that has held this country together for 2 years straight.

            You don't have to like them, but we are now one of the countries most reliant on an effective state – which consists of civil servants. Supposed to be a leftie dream right?

            • Stuart Munro 1.1.2.2.1.1

              The Covid response represents the only large scale departure from the corrupt and ineffectual neoliberal norm a government has attempted in 30 years or more.

              It is no surprise that this departure carried both the government and civil service to levels of popularity undreamt of in a generation. People want the government to govern, and civil servants to act visibly in the public interest. Do more of this – and let's be rid of the useless wretches at Treasury who have produced nothing of value in the whole of their unelected reign.

              • Ad

                Is that true?

                We have the whole-of-government effort around climate mitigation, spanning (obviously) every Department and of which detailed plans and budgets are being drafted in time for Budget 2022.

                About New Zealand’s climate change programme | Ministry for the Environment

                We've also had multi-agency responses to the Christchurch massacre, which in turn involved very large chunks of New Zealand society. The Royal Commission made sure that Police, DPMC, SIS, Customs, Immigration, Internal Affairs, and many other entities had to work cooperatively.

                Then there's the Christchurch rebuild, involving every one of Christchurch Holding Company entities, and over a dozen different agencies. Don't have to like the results always, but then the only real precedent was Hobsonville and that was a greenfields not brownfields effort. New legislation, new entities, new plans, new Christchurch.

                Then there was the Provincial Growth Fund and its successor NZUP programme. Hundreds and hundreds of regional businesses, regional and local governments, regional iwi, and all working with other government agencies for further multiplier effects.

                There's plenty more examples that simply show that people complaining about a monolith called Wellington Bureaucrats is in fact a fiction, that the work "neoliberal" is pretty useless, and actually on balance we have an exceedingly responsive and effective public service.

                • Stuart Munro

                  Then there was the Provincial Growth Fund and its successor NZUP programme. Hundreds and hundreds of regional businesses,

                  Neoliberalism's concern lies only and always with business, not with the people, without whom all their foolish games go for naught – as was the case with the failed Christchurch rebuild.

                  Fundamentally, democracy must concern itself with either the wishes or the enlightened best interests of citizens. The moment it substitutes some other entity – be they corporate or media interests, party factionalism or pious fantasies that make good PR abroad, they are falling down on the job – wicked, tricksy, false, and ineffectual – second rate pretenders to democracy only quantitively ahead of the DPRK.

                  • Ad

                    You would need to go onto the NZUP and PGF websites to show how wrong your interpretation is. Business in New Zealand, from the PGF direction, is made of medium-sized provinces, iwi, and SME businesses who employ most of NZ's private sector and make up 90% of its businesses. The weighting for successful applications was strongly towards poorer locals and iwi. And we are all the better for it.

                    The indebtedness of Christchurch to public sector cooperation from central and local government agencies is easily demonstrated on the reuslts. The retreat from the sea is exactly what they would have to do under sea level rise,

                    What will Christchurch's residential red zone look like in another decade? | Stuff.co.nz

                    Pre & Post Quake Aerial Photography of Christhchurch : New Zealand Planning Institute

                    has revived its built environment,

                    Then and now: The February 2011 Christchurch earthquake in pictures | Stuff.co.nz

                    and is continuing to inspire innovation

                    Christchurch 'swamp dwelling' wins architectural design award | RNZ News

                    We have had the core legislation of 1987-89 in place for thirty years now, and in fact capitalism and the state are more interdependent than ever before. The claim that there's some lumpen beast called "neoliberalism" ruling over democracy just doesn't hold up when faced with the examples. It's simply an political economy that's also an evolved ecosystem of exchange.

                    ChristchurchNZ Wins Award For City-Wide Approach To Growing Businesses and Jobs – ChristchurchNZ.com

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Christchurch locals are far less sanguine, having suffered the thousand rorts of Gerry Brownlee and his forty thieves at Southern Response, of which this kind of thing is typical, but far from isolated.

                      A non-neoliberal government would have been at pains to restore the integrity of its official organs – but the perpetrators have largely escaped scot free, while their victims, already traumatised by the dislocations and losses caused by the earthquakes, often lacked the resilience or the funds to pursue the scoundrels through the courts themselves.

                      Neoliberalism is not merely alive and well, but compromising quality of governance throughout NZ. One need look no further than housing – the government is attentive to the market, instead of the needs of those unhomed by the infinitude of impoverishing failures that came in with Rogergnomics.

                      There is nothing whatsoever to celebrate about the handling of Christchurch – but sure, corporate PR may briefly fool those with no contact with those affected.

          • Patricia Bremner 1.1.2.2.2

            Now who do you think will control the worst neo-lib attributes of the corporations? Individuals? or the much maligned State?

            What disfunction? The State and Civil Service had to be rebuilt after 10 years of National, and interference run by NZ First, and it has worked well to deal with all that has been thrown at it.

            I lived in a household that favoured the State as most did in the 50's. Now in 2021 most want freedom of choice and neo-liberalism.

            This Government has steered a cautious people centred course. We have been fortunate in that. If that is deluded then I am deluded. I would rather be here than China Russia UK USA or whatever other brand of politics you appear to favour. You would have something to really moan about in Australia.

            To say this Government is "useless as ripples on the surface" is ideological claptrap. If that were true we would have been swamped by covid and the other disasters ages ago.

            The right wing mantra of "Useless not doing anything" is beginning to look and sound silly. Because you have been outvoted does not make the public service useless.

            When things have been stripped to the ideological bone, it takes time and a greater effort to turn that round and take people with you. We do live in a democracy which is currently facing and dealing with a worldwide pandemic.

    • satty 1.2

      It's a bit like a drug-addict talking about doing a de-tox in a clinic…. and paying someone else going there instead.

      The drug-addict still addicted to the drug and the person paid for might get money from multiple real drug-addicts for doing so.

      Also planting tree in another country doesn't solve other environmental issues close to home, like nitrogen in our rivers, air pollution in our cities.

      • Foreign Waka 1.2.1

        Our own backyard:
        Aluminium smelter, Fata lake, irrigation in areas that are normally completely unsuited (Otago), river flow diversions by the rich to fill their back yard lake and swimming holes. Cows…no need to elaborate, Wastewater straight to the sea, Waste disposal, just starting with people not even corporates is an eyeopener. Throwing rubbish out the window, have you ever seen the parking lot after a weekend next to fast food outlets? … the list is endless, there is no pride in how some of the people look after themselves, their home and their environment. We pussy foot around the basic issues because of political correctness and wonder why things fall apart. It needs strong laws and regulations, enforcement and fines that hit hard. And I mean hit hard.

        • Patricia Bremner 1.2.1.1

          It would assist greatly if police did more local work, and enacted enforcement instead of "standing by".

  2. Patricia Bremner 2

    As long as they are not Palm oil trees all good. Bolsonaro has started to listen, and replant. We need to look at our own coal use.

    Megan Woods is planning for more meaningful long term renewables. None of that will happen overnight. She has steadied the housing ship and the opposition have gone very quiet. Now for electricity.

    • Alan 2.1

      'steadied the housing ship' – that is very optimistic

      • Patricia Bremner 2.1.1

        Hi Alan. All reports have house prices steadying and even slight falls in Wellington. Meanwhile, even with material and product delays a huge ramping up of building. Most of that NOT 4 bed 3 bath mansions, but apartment and townhouses.

        • Alan 2.1.1.1

          lets revisit this in 12 months and see who's right

          • Patricia BremnerOk sounds fair 2.1.1.1.1

            Ok sounds fairsmiley

            • weka 2.1.1.1.1.1

              please fix user name on next comment. If you are using a phone, know that there is a bug that messes with where the cursor goes, it pays to check the name and email fields each time.

        • alwyn 2.1.1.2

          "All reports have house prices steadying and even slight falls in Wellington".

          I would love to see how you come to this conclusion. The only "fall" I have seen reported in Wellington was a drop in the average price paid in the tiny enclave that is Oriental Bay. The average sale price dropped to about $2.7 million or some such number.

          Where are the stories that justify your claim?

    • Janice 3.1

      That's like a self identified trans woman (man) taking a reserved space for women (adult human female) in employment, sport, toilets, changing rooms, etc.

      • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1

        Yes. I emailed Natrad along those lines. I do believe we need to have an official tangi for Science.

        The sickness became obvious when we were told that it was indeed possible to change one's sex, and the 'build the plane as we're flying along' muddle that was the world's response to a virus kind of sealed Science's fate.

        RIP

      • roblogic 3.1.2

        How dare those evolutionary biologists (Richard Dawkins and Robert Winston) express their ignorance and bigotry by talking about "science"!! Don't they understand the latest developments to come out of English Literature departments?
        🙃

    • francesca 3.2

      Yep , mammals can be birds now if they feel like they're birds

    • Sabine 3.3

      define birds 🙂

    • Maurice 3.4

      A WIN for Count Dracula?

      … after all it was Halloween!

      OR is that just Batty?

    • McFlock 3.5

      Maybe a light-hearted contest to raise awareness of our unique but often endangered wildlife is just about raising awareness of our unique but often endangered wildlife.

      But some jerks will never let an opportunity to show their colours go to waste, I guess.

      • francesca 3.5.1

        Oh lighten up McFlock , just a light hearted poke at post modernist nonsense.

        • McFlock 3.5.1.1

          Trans identity is just "post modernist nonsense", huh.

          Gotta love that light hearted humour establishment groups have thrown at the new minorities over the years. Totally not bigoted at all. /sarc

          • Sabine 3.5.1.1.1

            Considering that persons are a minority at whom so much humors have been thrown at and still is, maybe some should not throw stones whilst sitting in glass houses. s/

            • McFlock 3.5.1.1.1.1

              Hey, when I use a wildlife competition as an excuse to make jokes about minorities of any flavour, feel free to call me on it.

              • Sabine

                I will take you up on that.

                • McFlock

                  please do. And I should welcome the correction.

                  • Sabine

                    Pretty much your first comment is sexist and mysoginist.

                    Firstly you assume malice.

                    Secondly you assign malice.

                    third you assign a slur.

                    fourth you hide your own biases and bigotry behind a s/

                    Look and read about the bat who is a bird, mis-specied by so called scientists and then think again about what you posted.

                    Maybe choose a better occasion to get offended.

                    • McFlock

                      Exactly. You and your light hearted joking friends place trans people in the same category as a pr stunt about bats and birds.

                      Because that's all the "bird of the year" contest is. It's not an alteration to zoological taxonomies. It's not an international reclassification of bats as birds. It's a pr stunt so that one day a year local fauna get a bit of attention and support. That's all.

                      "Mis-specied"? Get a life. Learn the difference between joking about animals to get clicks, and joking about groups of people to belittle them.

                      I didn't hide anything behind a sarc tag. I made the point with a sarc tag. Equating serious issues people face with joke contests about animals is about as light hearted as blackface costumes at halloween.

        • Joanne perkins 3.5.1.2

          No, it's not a bit of light hearted nonsense, it is again the open mike being hijacked by anti trans people who "support us" so fuck you

          • francesca 3.5.1.2.1

            I’m not anti trans ,I’m anti the hijacking of language.

            I’m anti the kind of sophistry that had Bill Clinton redefining what sexual relations meant and the alternative meanings of the word"is"

            It depends on what is is.
            And it depends on what the word woman means

          • Red Blooded One 3.5.1.2.2

            heart "this too will pass" Stay strong Joanne perkins.

          • Brigid 3.5.1.2.3

            so fuck you

            Nah fanks

          • Molly 3.5.1.2.4

            We've been in lop-sided discussions before, where you have given your perspective but not really outlined what you consider "support", so I suspect I am included in "anti trans people who "support us"'.

            For clarification:

            What is "anti-trans"?

            What "support" is it that you request/demand?

            • Molly 3.5.1.2.4.1

              Ignore, Joanne.

              Just read too many TERF comments today (elsewhere), and your "fuck off" comment struck a nerve, as it felt like we had been getting somewhere previously.

              Mutual acknowledgement of frustration getting the better of us, perhaps?

          • solkta 3.5.1.2.5

            Good on you for standing up to them.

          • miravox 3.5.1.2.6

            Yeah, sorry you've been hurt by this, Joanne. I also wouldn't like trans people I care about think that I found it acceptable.

          • Anker 3.5.1.2.7

            Sorry you feel so bad about it Joanne.

          • Sabine 3.5.1.2.8

            It totally was until McFlock and you came along.

            And then it went ugly.

        • weka 3.5.1.3

          so here's the problem: if we don't differentiate between trans people/trans people as a class, and gender ideology, then it's almost impossible to make jokes like this without promoting the idea that trans people are just blokes with feelings (or men in dresses). Which means that either trans people don't exist or they don't matter. You can argue that if that's what you believe, and you will then have to deal with the push back. But you can't just casually drop it into the conversation, in the same way that someone couldn't drop jokes about Māori like that, or make jokes about terfs.

          Post modernist nonsense/gender ideology is fair game, but we have to separate that out from trans people and your joke just lumped them together in it's casualness.

          Yes McFlock has reacted and then taken the conversation down his own political agenda path (while accusing others of the same). But that doesn't mean the joke isn't a problem.

          Transphobia within gender critical feminism, and gender critique generally, exists. In my experience GCFs are pretty blind to this, in the same way that many feminists in the past have been blind to homophobia or racism within feminism. We know what it's like to have men dismiss their sexism by saying 'it's just a joke' and being blind to the implications. Let's not do that too.

          TS Policy says "What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others". In this context, I am aware that there are a small number of openly trans and NB willing to comment here. We should be grateful for that, not least to prevent us from becoming a political cul de sac or echo chamber. They are greatly outnumbered generally, and in particular in the gender/sex debates where we now have a lot of feminists engaged (which is a bloody good thing for TS) and a number of GC men, and people slowly getting on board but who don't have a depth of understanding about the politics, or why the beef isn't with trans people (and really, it isn't).

          It's hard to moderate the tone/language aspect, in part because the supposed trans allies here have basically left the room instead of dealing with the politics on the table. But also because of the numbers imbalance. I am aware that there is a tendency towards building a culture here based on slogans and a kind of cockiness because there's not the usual degree of arguments to make people think through what they are saying and doing.

          'Men in dresses' or 'men with feels' is the same as TWAW, fall back accusations of transphobia, and 'no debate'. It's lazy, partisan, entrenched politics from people who believe they can win at any cost and not give a shit about the other side (and yes, of course TAs are doing it too). I personally believe this is a failure of feminism, but beyond that, it's just not going to be ok on TS. I've been wondering what to do about this, still thinking it through, and not wanting to lay all this on you Francesca, this was just an opportunity arising from a dumb comment to discuss the broader issues that have been on my mind. I'm writing this for everyone in the debate but being pointing to the women and saying we need to pay attention to where we are getting it wrong.

      • Red Blooded One 3.5.2

        I bow to your bravery McFlock, yes

        • McFlock 3.5.2.1

          You know how it is – fight the good fight until the batteries run down, recharge for a while, get back into it.

          also, the blatancy of turning a wildlife contest into an anti-trans joke session pissed me off more than their usual echo chamber.

          • francesca 3.5.2.1.1

            Yet you had such fun McFlock, with your Assange jokes about kitty litter and faeces on the walls (all untrue), the unwelcome house guest in the Ecuador embassy, and the being surprised in the morning snicker when he was dragged out to Belmarsh jail

          • Anker 3.5.2.1.2

            McFlock. I think you hold your views on transgender people because you have friends who have trans kids…… I think that is the best of motives…

            However there are so many issues around gender ideology, a relatively recent theory of gender and sex. I think you and many of the men on this site have closed their minds to seeing the bigger picture on what is really going on.

            The recent example of Kathleen Stock, a philophy professor at Sussex University is a case in point. She has been vilified, harrased, received death and rape threats and was recently told the police could no longer guarantee her safety on campus. The viciousness with which the trans activists attacked her cannot be justified. None of them have faced any consequences.

            Kathleen's Stocks crime? She wrote a book about biological sex, saying that gender identity does not trump biological sex. She also said she feared a back lash against trans people because of the viciousness of institutions like Stonewall and she cautioned her supporters about this.

            For me one of the worst aspects of what is going on with gender ideology, is that we are teaching kids (very vulnerable kids) that they are born in the wrong body and the answer to their problems is to transition to the opposite sex. Kids are being given puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and then masectomies as young a 13 and hysterectomies. These results of these interventions are irresversible in many instances. Causing problems with fertily, sexual arousal, appearance etc. A therapist who submitted to the Conversion Therapy Sub committee who works with de-transitioners say there are now 22,000 people on her website alone. Children who transitioned and then suffered regret. Women who now have permantly deep voices, Adams Apples, body and facial hair, have lost their breasts and wombs (like the 23 year old in a Listener article at June).

            These issues need to be openly discussed and addressed. Personally I find it very hard to fathon that people such as yourself and other guys on this website aren't shocked and disgusted by these events. Like the Wi Spa incident and more recently the young women who was sodomized in a school bathroom by a transgender student. in the United States

            There are countless examples of what is problematic about gender ideology.

            You told me some time back on this blog, that I was on the wrong side of history. I replied that I didn't mind that as it was more important for me to be on the side of what I believe in. I do now believe it is more likely that there will eventually be a Royal Commission of Enquiry into what we have allowed to happen to our children. Why the media were complicit with it. And why one activist group, both here and in the UK have been able to infiltrate the media, education, parliament and in the UK the police.

            I really don't know what it will take to get through to some people on this site that there is something quite pernicious going on. If none of what I have listed above causes you any concerns or bothers you, then I am at a loss to make sense of your tunnel vision

            • McFlock 3.5.2.1.2.1

              Sure, I have friends who are trans and gender fluid, or who have trans or gender fluid kids. Maybe you don't know the issues they face. I sure as hell barely have the tip of the iceberg.

              But in this forum, on this subject, I've had my fill of bad-faith links, half-described stories, and naively-accepted twitter posts.

              So I backed away, but now I can't even read a comment about birds and bats without this shit cropping up. I mean, seriously? A fucking wildlife popularity contest?

              oh, and before I sign off: nothing in this comment means I find threats or acts of violence against women (or anyone) acceptable, whether by trans people or anyone else.

              Because past experience suggests that if I overlook a comment someone will turn up and claim it's an endorsement of the worst possible interpretation. 🙄

              • Anker

                Thanks McFlock. But I think there have been some good links provided on this site from GC commenters.

                It does feel like our concerns do get overlooked on this site. I remember this happened with Wi-Spa and I was told it was a prank and that the violence that ensued was the responsibility of the pranksters. But actually it turned out to be correct. Most of the stuff we post here is actually happening.

                I don't imagine it is at all easy being trans. But my concerns are a little different from yours. I am concerned about the exponential growth in teenage girls who are transitioning and suffering the most sickening damage to their bodies. And then come to regret it. If there is one thing that keeps me in this issue it is that. And again I cannot fathom why some people on this website aren't shouting from the rooftops about it.

                • McFlock

                  Because some of the same people shouting about it are sharing cherry-picked wrestling scores, incorrect claims about fathers being jailed for misgendering their kids, or twittering about how they'd like to hunt down specific people on their farm. Reliability about the existence or extent of specific problems and incidents, or the degree to which acceptance of trans people plays a role in those problems or incidents, was spent months ago.

                  So, frankly, I'd rather talk about how native bats and birds are both prey to roaming introduced species, and therefore the winning entry was within the spirit of the nominating guidelines.

                  • weka

                    I disagree with a lot you are saying here, but I agree about the bat joke. It was stupid and off. I’ll address it when I get home and am on my laptop instead of phone.

                  • Anker

                    How do you shout on the Standard?

                    I think you are now cherry picking ie you are sharing my mistake about the father in Canada going to prison for misgendering his child and I made a mistake it wasn't that at all. When corrected I did admit it was an error. No apology though from people who told me Wi Spa was a prank and the pranksters were therefore responsible for violence.

                    I also stated that I didn't in anyway condone the comments by the NZder about hunting people down on a farm. I was deeply opposed to that and stated imo she deserved to have her guns removed.

                    What I can't understand is how there is a complete lack of empathy for women and girls e.g. the girl who was sodomized (the transwomen was sent to another school where they sexually assaulted another girl). How can this be o.k.????? A person with a penis is a man whatever they feel inside or how they identify as.

                    One of the excellent links posted on here was of a psychiatrist who also trained as a psychotherapist and worked with trans people. He explains what he found. He also worked at Broadmore, a forensic unit and he said there were transgender women who were there who definitely wanted to get access to women's spaces for nepherious purposes. He doesn't think there is a trans gender community he thinks they are a heterogenious group. The very young children who identify as trans are according to him austistic in neearly 100% of cases. The teens are going through the usual identity issues including reacting against parental authority (about 80% of these will desist being trans so it is essential they don't medically transition). If you want to listen to it, I will post it. It has already been posted on this site.

                    • McFlock

                      It's easy to apologise after someone has spent more than an hour doing the checking that you should have done before posting.

                      And the wii spa video was just as thin as the link to the Canadian story. The fact that it actually ended in charges some time later (notably for behaviour, not gender identity) doesn't mean that the evidence posted online justified the immediate outrage. .

                      So let's say you actually now have clear examples of transwomen being evil and various administrations being powerless to predict and manage that possible behaviour, and that behaviour was only enabled by their chosen gender identity. Or that some shrink is presenting detailed evidence (rather than blinkered anecdata to support an outmoded professional bias).

                      How am I supposed to know, when I've already put in literal hours of research – not writing, actual research finding data sources, locating original court documents and other primary records, and so on – and writing it up, while being mobbed by the usual suspects? Throw more good hours after bad?

                      Nah. I'm done with it. No more gas in that tank.

                      I'll skip the self-contained echochamber threads, but would have preferred the wildlife publicity competition thread to not have been derailed.

                      I reckon the bat is a worthy winner, even if it ain't strictly a bird.

                    • weka

                      "(notably for behaviour, not gender identity) "

                      Transwoman self-IDs into women's spaces, is arrested on exposure charges, has form, and left wing dude decides this is simply someone behaving badly and nothing to do with sex/gender. This is the kind of argument that men on TS have run when pushing back against the idea that male violence against women is 'gendered' (ie based in sex differences). MRA-lites.

                      We arrest men exposing themselves for bevaiour not gender identity/sex too, but that doesn't mean that gender/sex isn't intrinsic to the problem.

        • Molly 3.5.2.2

          Brave enough to get offended?

          Brave enough to tell other commenters they are jerks?

          OR brave enough to authentically participate in a discussion he has removed himself from?

          • Anker 3.5.2.2.1

            Oh McFlock you are responsible for how much time you spend researching this stuff. And I would be amazed if it took you an hour researching on the court case in Canada if that is what you are referring to. A simple google search would have found the article.

            You are not the only one who has researched this area. I think you will find the Australasian Council of psychiatrists agree with this “shrink” so not so outdated. The affirmation only approach is driven by activists. I am happy to post an article again by Paul Lethan a gay NZ counsellor where he talks about how unsafe the affirmation only. approach is. And how he is concerned Rainbow Youth Auckland are failing Rainbow Youth. Its brilliant and insightful

            What an earth do you mean that the Wi-spa thing was "as thin as the link to the Canadian story.. ……..

            I agree with Weka "left wing guy decides this is some dude behaving badly"

            They were behaving legally in a completely acceptable manner ie the transwoman was naked with their penis out in a change room around women and girls……………That is the whole point. This bloody stupid law allows sex offenders or any other men into women's private spaces where they are naked or changing…………….allowing gender self id is a sex offenders dream. Voyerism and exposure now legal and legit……….all good. What are you pesky transphobe women complaining about???? Who cares about the girls who were there. This shit reminds me of Centrepoint.

        • Anker 3.5.2.3

          One man's "bravery" is another women's concerns being denied, distorted, deleted, discredited.

          • weka 3.5.2.3.1

            except this didn't happen here. People were talking about bats/birds, someone made a stupid joke at the expense of trans people, and others pointed this out. That previous conversations have been a big problem for feminists isn't the primary issue here. We can't use our own problems to deny the problems of other classes of people/

            • Molly 3.5.2.3.1.1

              Agree.

              But I believe McFlock also was keen to find an excuse to put the boot in. given that he has recused himself from the topic.

              A casual kick in passing to get everyone back in line.

              That's not bravery. Bravery is informing yourself without prejudice, and solving the issues. It doesn't escape my notice that he dismisses the indecent exposure incident with circular reasoning that belongs on a merry-go-round.

              • weka

                yeah, I didn't get the bravery bit. McFlock is a long time commenter here, used to robust debate and able to speak up. It's not like he's going to get cancelled, doxxed, or threatened with violent/rape imagery.

                I also agree that some of his arguments are circular and along with the bowing out of the debate this makes it hard to address the issues. Which is why I mostly don't bother now.

  3. Janice 4

    Re the increasing Covid numbers. I wish they would give us running numbers of the outbreaks of Covid. For instance 'There are now xx numbers from the Redvale party and xx from the first Tamaki protest. There are also xx numbers resulting from the person who broke the border and took the virus to Waikato.' This detail may make people who are not following the rules to have second thoughts. Perhaps the backlash after naming the Samoan church has made officials more wary.

  4. francesca 5

    Good news in Uttar Pradesh

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/lucknow/no-fresh-case-in-71-uttar-pradesh-districts-in-24-hours-42-declared-covid-free/articleshow/87148678.cms

    Despite having a very poor vaccination rate

    https://theprint.in/health/with-only-20-adults-fully-vaccinated-uttar-pradesh-at-bottom-of-covid-immunisation-rankings/756446/

    Now I wonder if this has something to do with the efficient testing regime combined with home isolation , the home based treatment packs and efficient monitoring

    Delta has been the dominant covid variant in this region

    Natural immunity does not explain it, because natural immunity is not as potent as the vaccine

    I'd be interested in any cultural differences here , for eg,take up of testing and compliance with the home isolation .How wraparound the health system

    I know very little about Uttar Pradesh, except its huge population ..241 million , there may be plenty other variables, but clearly there's been a treatment based strategy, which could be useful for our vulnerable and hardened ant vaxxers.

    Something's going right.

    • Tricledrown 5.1

      Forgive me for being cynical but I would think given the overcrowding and other reports coming out of India,there could and most likely a huge amount of under reporting.Being a much younger population as well less deaths per capita.It will show up in unexplained excess mortality rates.

      The problem is with Covid is it keeps mutating as it has already shown.

      So the western G20 and wealthy countries should be doing way more to give countries who can't afford vaccines enough to suppress covid. Otherwise we all might be back to ground zero with a new variant which we don't have a vaccine for.

      NZ looks likely to be able to give up to 10 million doses away but that's no where near enough ,the US has pledged a pathetic 100 million doses the EU something similar Russia and China could win a lot of friends as they are giving many more countries their vaccines.

      • francesca 5.1.1

        Forgive me for asking if you have been following the the turn of events in UP re it's covid strategies

        It started off being absolutely overwhelmed, with a mostly private sector health system not coping, a large rural sector resistant to vaccination , as you say, a huge and overcrowded population .(241 million) There were many deaths .

        I doubt the dramatic decline in deaths can entirely be put down to underreporting unless the method of recording has changed over time .Do you have any evidence to indicate that the method of recording has changed?

        • Subliminal 5.1.1.1

          Yes thats a real eye opener. The extraordinary part is that some states around the world have been too poor or disorganised to secure vaccinations at a national level and so have needed to look at cheap effective medicine that is easily obtained and may be repurposed for covd. This means no need to conduct expensive human trials because of a long track of record of known side effects for patients. Notable in the Bihar medicine pack, which is similar to UP, is ivermectin which has shown interesting antiviral properties against HIV, and has a long track record of safe use in humans after its original success against most animal parasites. The most encouraging thing about it is its power as a prophylactic which is precisely what was needed in the third world along with cheap production. Venezuela is another country that has had success with ivermectin after being forced to look for alternatives due to sanctions and blocking access to their international funds.

          There may be some under reporting but it would be pretty hard to hide bodies on the scale that they were confronted with earlier. In such situations doctors are forced to consider and try and persevere with whatever works and then share this knowledge through their communities.

  5. lprent 6

    Just cancelled my digital NZ Herald subscription that I have been running for over a year. There simply isn't enough in it to be worth $5/week.

    Their international stuff is late and I usually have already read it – I have subscriptions to a few mainstream international (NYT, WP, Economist).

    Their local business stuff is crap. I mostly work in offshore markets, so knowing the musings of the local echo chamber of commerce opinion is pretty well irrelevant. What I do know is that I also subscribe to BusinessDesk which is way better analysed for the local business and infrastructural politics.

    Their local political writing is full of opinions with very little informed analysis. It often reads largely like puff pieces for National and Act politicians.

    And then there are their selection of actual opinion writers. Most of whom with a very few exceptions are idiots whose whole tenor seems to be making assertions without substantiation or bothering to provide any source links. Starting with the repeated pieces from NZ Initiative that are invariably nice sounding business nonsense if you only think short-term, through to the ignorant ranting of the radio 'personalities' like Mike Hosking or Heather whatshername. None of which are worth me reading because they are largely hard information free for this MBA and tech/science geek.

    There are a few that I'll miss. Matt Nippert and Devid Fisher have been doing some excellent reporting on local issues in depth on things that I don't know much about. Brian Fallow is always worth reading (but seems to have retired now). Simon Wilson is usually interesting. Some of the local Auckland political analysis pieces by Bernard Orsman are worth reading.

    I'd pay for individual articles by journos at the Herald, but my daily scanning of the Herald has become an exercise in futility.

    Over the last year, it has slowly transitioned from near the start of the daily reading list to the point that I scan it after almost everything else – including Stuff, BusinessDesk, Politik, Aussie ABC, RNZ, BBC, NYT, WP, Guardian, Ars Technicia, a couple of IT industry sites, and even HuffPost. It is on the second page of my daily phone news sites.

    Time to put the money wasted on the NZ Herald to some good elsewhere. Increase the Stuff payment or find something else to add to my reading list.

    • Matiri 6.1

      We subscribe to Newsroom Pro – well worth it.

    • weka 6.2

      what I'd like is to be able to buy a day's edition, like I can with the paper at the dairy.

      • alwyn 6.2.1

        Why don't you ask your local library whether they offer Pressreader? The Wellington City Library certainly does and you can read, free, a very large number of papers including the Herald and the Dom/Post as well as a lot of overseas ones.

    • roblogic 6.3

      So much of the Opinion crap from the Herald (Hosking, Hooton, Soper et al) is aggressively and offensively ignorant. Not gonna pay for it!

    • weka 6.4

      I'm really noticing RNZ not covering a lot on the weekends.

    • Tricledrown 6.5

      Lprent it seems to me across all media outlets there is a lot less quality news.just a few headlines followed by repeated reheated news from days or weeks ago.

    • AB 6.6

      My partner sometimes buys the paper version on a weekend. In summer I find it really good for wrapping up snapper frames after I have removed the fillets, freezing the whole parcel and then burying it 15-20cm down in the garden. The paper seems to deter cats from digging up the smelly fishy bits – while the worms can get through it and turn the fish remains into nutritious goodness. I think of it as a type of alchemy – turning base matter into gold – the deranged ramblings of a swamp of far right dingbats becoming tomatoes and courgettes.

      • Treetop 6.6.1

        For some years I used the real estate glossy papers for changing the poo nappies on and wrapping them up.

        • McFlock 6.6.1.1

          Years ago the local student newspaper went from newsprint to glossy (apparently cheaper).

          There was a letter to the editor complaining that while they still read the free publication, the transition had resulted in an extra item on the weekly shopping list. laugh

  6. Treetop 7

    On 22 October incognito wrote a post "Mad Tuesday. " For me it was a very important subject as it raised education for students sitting NCEA exams and prevention/managing Covid in schools in a level 3 area. It is Mad Monday today with a student at Auckland Grammar with Covid and a staff member at Mc Cleans College with Covid.

    To even consider sending any other students from new enterant to year 10 back to school is asking for it.

  7. Patricia Bremner 8

    yes Yes to all of that. I am amazed you gave them a year.devil Agree about Brian Fallow David Fisher and Matt Nippert. Matt's recent piece was excellent.

  8. francesca 9

    Sabine
    “define bird”define definewink

  9. Adrian 10

    It means an aeroplane is a mammal.

  10. Sabine 11

    So on a different note altogether,

    We applied to be adopted by a senior dog who got surrendered to a pound due to his parents having passed away.

    There are some 49 people who have applied for the lovely pooches attention, but surely some of you might consider crossing toes and fingers that we might get chosen. My old girl daisy passed away last year, and I feel that socialisation is becoming an issue if no dog where to take care of me, virgil and possum the cat.

  11. francesca 12

    Hope you get him

  12. Tricledrown 13

    The claim by govt that lowering alert levels will lead to only 200 cases a day modellers suggest doesn't match what has happened in NSW and Victoria. That's wishful thinking even with high vax numbers that leaves 100's of 1,000's vulnerable .Mask wearing in public should be a high priority for people in crowded areas even if a few don't follow that will reduce the spread to those who are unable or unwilling to be vaccinated.The Media should put out more stories of the unwilling who end up in intensive care .Most recant and wish they had been immunised.

    • Maurice 13.1

      How will the unvaxxed even get infected – they will all be eliminated from society and locked away … may be at the Super Market?

      The biggest threat the unvaxxed (and vaxxed – for that matter) face is from the vaxxed who think the "jab" has made them immune and unable to spread the infection.

      We are ALL going to live in a stew of viral droplets – and a certain number of the FULLY vaxxed will be sacrificed too.

      "Kindness"

      • dv 13.1.1

        Agreed 100%

        The biggest threat the unvaxxed (and vaxxed – for that matter) face is from the vaxxed who think the "jab" has made them immune and unable to spread the infection.

        • Descendant Of Smith 13.1.1.1

          Show me anywhere that a vaxxed person thinks that or has promulgated that. No agency has and I don't know anyone who is vaxxed who actually thinks that in any way shape of form,

          What I do see is the same entitled people breaking rules, going through borders, etc that they have always done – regardless of vaccination status.

          This notion of immunity belief seems to be getting portrayed predominantly anti-vax anti-Labour types.

      • GreenBus 13.1.2

        Maurice, I would suggest to you that the double vaxxed know the limitations of the Pfizer. How could they not when so many AV trolls keep reminding them. Logic would dictate that the AV with higher viral load and greater transmissability and possibly not following other restrictions will be the biggest spreaders. Stay safe but keep your distance.

    • Treetop 13.2

      There are so many issues related to Covid. The main Covid issue which the government cannot screw up is having capacity in the health system to manage Covid ICU/ HDU and Covid ward hospital admissions.

      There also needs to be capacity in the health system for surgery which cannot be postponed or for necessary hospital admissions.

      Data needs to be released on the single, double vaccinated and unvaxxed people admitted into ICU/HDU and the Covid ward. Once boosters are rolled out the data would need to expand.

  13. Tricledrown 14

    Agreed Maurice that is true that's why every one in public places should wear a mask .Our health system is struggling with 60 cases in hospital 95% whom are unvaccinated. That number will climb rapidly just like in NSW and Victoria.

    We could all do more to save our health system if it means wearing a mask in public place's that will help.

  14. Pete 15

    Mike Hosking's hero Gladys Berejiklian being questioned is great entertainment. I don't know how she found her way to her office her memory is so poor.

    Her impersonation of a weasel is pretty good though. Live:

    https://7news.com.au/politics/gladys-berejiklian/berejiklian-faces-second-day-at-icac-c-4382107

    • tc 15.1

      Yes those phone taps are very handy in reminding the commission what she said, to who and when whilst the ropes being feed out.

  15. Tricledrown 16

    Lancets latest release of a 250 person study shows that in home situations covid delta can be spread amongst vaxxed family members at nearly the same rate as unvaxxed because of longterm close proximty.So going back to the Florence Nightingale days of high levels of personal hygiene and home cleanliness plus social distancing where possible.

    Until we have a better vaccine and new medicines arrive we all need to change our behaviours.

    In the Area of France my daughter lives in they all wear masks everywhere where people congregate wash hands keep distanced where possible.The results are much lower infection rates.Back in the day before vaccines and antibiotics were available that's what they did.My mother was a nurse the levels of hygiene in hospitals were extreme if a Matron found any dirt dust unclean linen nurses were severely reprimanded and made to do extra cleaning.

    Now days many public hospital wards would be shutdown because of dirtyness.The hospital ward my mother died in was filthy ironically.

    Low paid cleaners don't give a shit .Contractors loose contracts if their prices are to high so it ends up going to the lowest worst payers!

    After the pandemic calms down if it does we need to upgrade our health system just changing the management is not good enough .We have a health system with hospitals rotting away falling to pieces hugely understaffed. This is going to need some real money .As it has been run down over 35 years particularly by National who gave us tax cuts at every election while under funding health Labour Helen Clarkd reforms left the health system in dissarray especially in Mental Health closing the outdated mental hospitals was a good idea but just throwing those patients on to the streets with out proper community healthcare was not much better than what was happening while those patients were in those archaic facilities.

    Labour have a mountain of work to do .This may not be the last pandemic .

    • Maurice 16.1

      "Labour have a mountain of work to do"

      Everyone else has a mountain of work to do – Labour is palpably and demonstrably unable – despite being so aspirational …

      As Petronius Arbiter, a Roman official at the time of Nero, reputedly wrote:
      ‘We tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion inefficiency, and demoralization. ‘

      • Ad 16.1.1

        If you think there's a party that could do a better job getting New Zealand through COVID than the existing Labour leadership, show who and how.

        New Zealand without Labour's team of Ardern, Hipkins, Robertson et al over the last 18 months would be a cataclysm, no matter what Party leadership combination you put in place.

        • higherstandard 16.1.1.1

          Least competent opposition combined with least competent government this century.

          • Ad 16.1.1.1.1

            The current government have had two major crises to deal with. Their responses are well benchmarked internationally.

            The reforms they are undertaking are slow but systemic and they are huge. May not look all exciting for those who like their politics in explosive headlines and riots. But that's not how you get long term change within MMP.

            The purpose of New Zealand's government can be put into three words:

            "crises and deals"

    • gsays 16.2

      I was on one of my favoutite hobby horses last night on that very subject.

      In regards to workers in hospitals that are sub-contracted; cleaners, cooks, security, grounds and maintanance etc, they should be bought back on the hospital pay roll.

      Invest in the staff, training, specializing, incentives. Watch the productivity lift.

      This way the new health authority can take a big step away from the neo-liberal, race-to-the-bottom antics favoured by CEO's and Financial Officers and instill a bit of pride and well-being in the communities they serve.

      • Ad 16.2.1

        What gives you confidence they would be better managed if they were brought back in house?

        • gsays 16.2.1.1

          Their current managers are driven by short term profits.

          We all perform better if we feel we belong.

  16. Treetop 17

    Bring aspirational is not enough when it comes to the Delta strain. I know the government has the best intentions and has some difficult decisions to make which will not make them popular.

    • Ad 17.1

      The 4pm standup is going to please no-one. But the calls must be made.

      • Poission 17.1.1

        A call to Singapore should be enough.The future for opening up to early.

        https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/moh-covid-19-new-cases-deaths-oct-31-2281206

        • Ad 17.1.1.1

          We do model on small states generally. Singapore is one, so is Israel, and Denmark, and Austria. Each have had differing trajectories.

          Queensland looks like the exemplar at the moment.

          • Cricklewood 17.1.1.1.1

            I hope we go the path of Denmark Norway etc and the sooner the better.

          • Koff 17.1.1.1.2

            Queensland is opening its borders to NSW, Vic and ACT on 17th December, whatever the vaccination rate (currently the lowest in Oz after WA). Qld, WA, SA, NT and Tas have been virtually virus free and relatively normal but the Delta outbreaks in the south have changed everything. Note that the case numbers have peaked in NSW, Vic and ACT and are now on the decline, presumably because of the high vacc rates in each jurisdiction. NSW is now recording fewer daily Covid cases than NZ, but NZ has still managed to have fewer hospitalisations and deaths (just 2) from its Delta outbreak than any of the 3 aussie states/territories, presumably because Delta arrived at a later stage in NZ's vacc rollout. The political opposition (federal labor and state opposition parties, of whatever colour) here has been relatively muted compared to the nutjobs in NZ.

  17. Treetop 18

    Yes, and the government make the call on what the situation is today and what is trying to be avoided with the assistance of Ministry of Health officials and the Technical Advisory Panel and not the opposition.

    Collin's contribution at the weekend was an expectation that the PM goes to Auckland. I am sure that was going to fix all the concerns that Aucklander's have, sarcasm and I know Auckland is doing it hard.

    • Cricklewood 18.1

      Probably best she doesn't I'd imagine any public appearance would draw a fairly large angry crowd of a few thousand going by Saturday.

      • Gabby 18.1.1

        I suspect that's the plan, bully Ardern into going to Auckland and then rent a mob to harass her.

    • Treetop 18.2

      I have made so many errors today, comments in the wrong place, spelling errors and giving the wrong names of colleges.

  18. chris T 19

    Well that made shit less complicated.

    Worrying Maori stat.

  19. observer 20

    'Why can't we be Australia?' demands Barry Soapbox, at the presser. 'Why wait a week in Auckland?'

    NSW and Victoria: 8 Covid deaths today. And this is a good day: last Friday Victoria had 25 deaths.

    (NZ: 2, in 2 months).

    • higherstandard 20.1

      NSW and Victoria have around 3 x our population and the major population centres are somewhat more crowded.

      Around 100 people die a day in NZ – it is always nice when you're not one of the 100 to be fair.

      • Pete 20.1.1

        It's always nice when 100s of thousands get covid (with long lasting affects for some) and many thousands die and you're not one of them and none of your family and friends are on that list.

        When you've missed out on the empathy gene it helps as a does a dash of brainlessness. On those fertile fields we pour on some religious nuttery stir it with some medical quackery and we've got what we've got.

    • Sanctuary 20.2

      The Imams of the ZB Taliban are obsessed with their settler colonial cringe over Australia.

      Australia! Defiantly climate change denying, white man firmly in charge, Murdoch press loving, sunny Australia! "Oh why", Sighs Barry and Mike, "can't we be more like Australia?"

  20. rod 21

    I would not be surprised if Barry Soapbox went and lived in Australia. I am sure they would love him over there. Well Scomo would anyway.

    • I'll drive him to the airport

      • Patricia Bremner 21.1.1

        devil I'll carry his baggage.

      • logie97 21.1.2

        Anyone else getting tired of the emeritus professor Gorman's media contributions to the nation's knowledge on Covid.

        Here is this weekend's medical expert comment from the ODT.

        https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/prof-warns-civil-disobedience-auckland

        "University of Auckland Emeritus Professor of medicine Des Gorman said easing restrictions was the only way to maintain public compliance. If you leave Auckland where it is, I think you're going to have an outbreak of civil disobedience."

        Would be of more value if this man was to lend his voice to pushing for vaccination and getting in behind the health experts direction rather than his regular seemingly political point scoring.

        Or maybe I have missed something.

        • Gypsy 21.1.2.1

          Des Gorman has an impressive academic background, and actual international experience working with health system preparedness. He actively encourages vaccination, and openly supports vaccinated people having more freedoms.

        • alwyn 21.1.2.2

          You certainly did miss something.

          Gorman has been pushing the "must vaccinate" line ever since vaccines became available. He was doing so when our leaders were promoting the line that there was no hurry and he was right.

          Have a look at this comment from him about the shambles that was the vaccination campaign. Look in particular at the date of the article. He was saying this back in April when Ardern and Hipkins were both pushing the line that New Zealand had all the time in the world and we could wait for other countries to go first because we had "eliminated" Covid 19.

          I think that Gorman was right then and I think he is right now.

          "A leading medical expert has branded the Government and its under-fire vaccination rollout as "incompetent", declaring "a shambles" is too generous of a description for the flawed and slow-moving system."

          "University of Auckland medical professor Des Gorman has strongly criticized the Government for failing to accelerate the administration of vaccinations, noting at the current rate, it will take roughly five years to inoculate New Zealand's population against COVID-19."

          https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/04/covid-19-government-s-under-fire-vaccination-rollout-slow-and-incompetent-des-gorman.html

        • observer 21.1.2.3

          Des Gorman has said a lot of things. They are often contradictory.

          This is fine for the media who only want a headline, and it's fine for the opposition who are happy to say the government is too tough/soft, acting too fast/slow, that mandates are right/wrong, depending on the spokesperson and the weather.

          For example, imagine Jacinda Ardern at her press conference, announcing this:

          "Other countries mobilised the military and the police. If you want to see how well a quarantine can be done, then Taiwan's a living example of how well it can be done… when you're trying to manage a pandemic you don't say, 'Please go home and please be a good boy or girl.' You monitor people. If they turn their phone off, you knock on their door."

          And of course Seymour/Collins would agree, saying "cool, the government should totally do that, and we won't say anything about rights and freedom" …

          Des has the answers, except in reality.

          • alwyn 21.1.2.3.1

            "They are often contradictory.".

            That is very easy to say. Well demonstrate it. I'm sure you can find a few significant examples if your statement is correct. Or not.

            That quote you have put in. Are you saying that Gorman said it? If so provide a link,

        • Jester 21.1.2.4

          Des Gorman is the voice of reason and very sensible and calls a 'spade a spade'.

          He was calling for a faster vaccine roll outback in April as per Alwyn's link and criticised the government for being too slow so he wont be popular on this web site.

          • observer 21.1.2.4.1

            So if the PM announced what Gorman wanted, quoted in my comment directly above yours, you'd be fine with that? Be honest now.

            That's your spade.

            • Jester 21.1.2.4.1.1

              Yep, that would have stopped some of these large gang tangis and protest groups forming. Mind you, if the vaccine roll out was faster, the Brian Tamaki gathering may not have happened as retail etc. would already be open and the vax passport up and running.

  21. Koff 22

    I think we'll keep Fran Kelly (ABC's Radio National) or Leigh Sales (ABC's 7.30 report) any day over Barry Soapbox and his ilk. Quality media journalists. Of course there are plenty of RWNJ soapbox heros over this side of the ditch as well, but there is more of a choice.

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