Open mike 01/05/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 1st, 2015 - 203 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

203 comments on “Open mike 01/05/2015”

  1. Saarbo 1

    Im not an Economist so can anyone explain: given the $7 billion reduction in dairy exports, why is GDP growth still forecasted to be positive?

    Given that $7 billion export reduction hasn’t effected GDP growth to any great degree, why do Economists and the MSM think its such an important measure?

    • Sans Cle 1.1

      GDP measures “productive” economic activity. Some economists think that all productive economic activity is good, and get excited about GDP growth. E.g. Rebuilding Christchurch leads to lots of “productive” activity in the form of construction activity.
      Other economists don’t get excited about GDP growth, and look to other measures/indicators, such as Genuine Progress Indicatiors, Happiness Indexes etc. at a national level, and different indicators at a sub-national level: income levels, the distribution of personal income, househol income, household income by number of people in that household etc.

      Politicians worldwide have really only had explicit economic growth goals for between 50-100 years.
      They think it’s such an important measure because it is a headline indicator, and is conventionally used. I doubt many of them understand what lies beneath it, what it measures or how it is measured.
      The $7billion reduction in dairy exports will have significant effects on the NZ economy in the next few years. Dairy farmers will have less money to reinvest, hence less economic activity. There will be a slight lag until these effects are felt. Meanwhile, selling houses in Auckland counts as “productive” economic activity (even though it is deadweight exchange of existing goods – banks profit, but their profits are mainly realised in Australia; government benefits from increased taxes associated with house sales: e.g. Estate agent’s income tax etc).
      The govt are being disingenuous when they keep on spouting on about how steady the economy is. It is not really doing so well, as far as I can tell. I cannot see newly emerging innovative industries sprouting all through the land.

      • Bearded Git 1.1.1

        I heard an economist on RadioNZ this morning (can’t find it now online) saying that half of the 3% GDP growth in NZ is due to immigration. (My guess is another 1% is due to the Chch rebuild.)

        He said that immigration numbers need to be cut so that pressure is taken off the Akl housing market and so that the RB can cut interest rates.

        For the life of me I can’t see why the RB isn’t cutting rates since we have some of the highest rates in the world, very low inflation and an over-valued dollar. Other methods than interest rates should be being used to dampen house prices in Akl, either by the RB or the government.

        Unfortunately Key and his speculator mates are happy with the housing bubble in Akl, so the rest of the country has to suffer. Talk about lack of vision.

        • Bearded Git

          Paul Glass of Devon Funds Management was the guy (not sure if he is an economist). It’s here and worth a listen:

          • greywarshark

            That Devon Funds chap seemed to have some ideas that are new, cf to the usual guff from bank economists.

            I think I heard the idea that GDP should be on a population basis so it has more reality and value when analysing the figures. DTB might like to put it better. But it seems to me that some of the stats we are presented with are just measures of a trend in a statistic that never measured the right thing in the right way in the first place.

            Like the fun way of telling how a country is doing by studying the price of hamburgers, or the length of women’s skirts (one measure that has been actually posited by objective market watchers, not by finky camera guys)

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2

        This comment of mine seems to apply:

        …the implication is that we have increasing GDP while the economy looks to be in a recessionary state.

  2. North 2

    Steven Joyce –

    Sydney taxi on standby, meter running for 9 hours…….$1,248. The arrogance adds up and adds up and adds up. I recall similar from Parata on a one day trip to Sydney a few years ago shortly after appointment as a minister.

    And of course smug wee ponce Simon Bridges had ALWAYS planned to come to Northland on ministerial duties in the 10 days prior to the Northland buy-election on 28 March…….”let ‘them’ eat cake” screams.

    • tracey 2.1

      Was there only one taxi operating in Sydney that day?

    • Sirenia 2.2

      Where are the headlines about this wasteful behaviour in the Herald. That is more than a month’s income for a disabled person.

      • Sirenia 2.2.1

        That is only a little article in the Herald – not the screamer headlines that Labour would have got. Will Mike Hosking denounce Joyce and the Government for this in one of his tedious monologues?

        • Tracey

          The Taxpayers Union will take the opportunity to pretend they care so when they tout for the ACT party in 2 years time people will think they are impartial.

    • North 2.3

      Here it is re Parata and the Sydney limo’ –

      Parata won’t quit, Key won’t sack her

  3. big ups! to the unite union – eh..?

    – for their david vs. goliath zero-hours-contracts victory over the fast-food behemoths..

    unite – showing what a union can/should do..

    the (rightwing) engineers union..?..following their long (self-interest-driven?) tradition ?

    – not so

    • tracey 3.1

      Agree with it being great work from Unite. As I was trying to explain to Gosman the other day, trying to change a government is not the only way to bring about change. people on the ground, working hard, fighting battles one by one, achieve change.

    • There hasn’t been a ‘right wing’ EU for twenty years, Phil. Do try and keep up.

      • phillip ure 3.2.1


        i must be imagining their long-silences during that poor-bashing clark labour govt

        when/what changed..?..

        ..what did i miss..? tell..!

        • te reo putake

          Mate, there’s so much you missed during your drug addled lost years you’d need a team of historians working in shifts to get you up to date. Best you just start from scratch and just assume your vague memories are as unreliable as your prose is unreadable.

          • left for deadshark

            pointless abuse TPR

            • te reo putake

              I agree, that’s why I called Phil on it.

              • left for deadshark

                @ TPR,..Head shake…

                That should read TRP,..i’m dyslexic.

                or are you going too slam that to.

                • If it’s true, why would I slam it? Phil made an unsubstantiated, anachronistic and inaccurate attack on a trade union. I responded and he doesn’t like it. His issue, not mine. His ignorance, not mine.

                  Isn’t it funny that most attacks on the union movement come from people who aren’t union members? And in Phil’s case, someone who is not even in the workforce. But no worry, the unions have fought against prejudiced and ignorant attacks for many, many years, wherever they come from.

                  • “ unsubstantiated, anachronistic and inaccurate attack on a trade union’..

                    ..really..? educate me/others on the glowing-history of activism of the engineers union since the douglas/rightwing-revolution

                    ..and of course an interesting compare/contrast is with the australian union movement – who refused to unbuckle..

                    ..and yr sneers @ ‘non-workers’ as others – is symptomatic of all that is/has been wrong with the union movement..

           that if you are not ‘one of us’/part of that particular union..

                    ..they couldn’t give a fuck about you..

                    ..unions have become covens of self-interest..

                    ..groups of people looking up their own arses..

           tell how the history of the engineers union does not fit that profile..?

                    • Educate yourself, Phil. Start with the name of the union, then go forward from there.

                    • weka

                      while I appreciate you needing to keep it real here trp, any chance you could not drag this out all day?

                    • i took yr suggestion..

                      ..and both googled and binged ‘new zealand engineers union activism’..



                      (and i am not just citing the engineers’ union..

                      ..the union movement in the main – is an example of successful divide and rule by the elites..par excellence..

                      ..self-regulating dissonance..

                      ..and with a history of uncaring/self-interest/outright-perfidy since the mid-80’s..

             why the breaking of that ‘consensus’/pattern by unite..

             both so refreshing..and as i said..a glimpse at the possiblities for good if the union movement removes their collective-heads from their collective-arse-holes..

                      ..and got their act together..

                      ..and thought/worked for the collective-good..

                      ..and not just for themselves/their members..

                      ..and screw everyone else..


                    • You’re so out of touch, Phil, it’s mind boggling. I think I’ll take up weka’s suggestion. All the best, anyway. It’s good having you back, even if you’re still not making any sense.

                    • and if looking for ideas of what to do..?

                      ..they could start with a three-fer..

             more zero contracts – for anyone..

                      ..a living wage for all workers..

                      ..and a universal basic income…for all citizens..

                      ..that three-fer will end the evils of child-poverty etc..

             one fell swoop..

             more just pissing around the edges of these problems/ills..

                      ..what are you waiting for..?

                    • Tautoko Mangō Mata

                      I disagree. Unite union has been well represented at virtually every protest from TPPA, selling State assets, Oil drilling protests, opposing charter schools, defending Glen Innes State housing, etc., supporting Gaza/Palestine.
                      In fact Unite’s Joe Carolan often speaks to the crowd at these protest rallies and is commonly on a megaphone during the marches. The Unite people have been very visible o social justice issues on all issues of social justice.

                  • left for deadshark

                    If thats true,.. ?

                    isn’t it funny,, but I think thats inaccurate,most attacks,as you call it come from other unions ie employers Associations and other organizations.I have been an union organizer, and my reading of history shows sexism, racism, and sometimes even corruption, and of coarse your attack on the underemployed is also unhelpful, but seeing you are an author here as well, and making some good points too, I will dissed from further comment, and read more thoroughly terms and conditions here on TS.

                    • the pigman

                      left for deadshark I can’t stand the patronising/sarcastic style either. I think it turns most people right off (they are just so used to it they don’t say anything), so thanks for speaking up.

                      However, regarding the EMA (Employers and Manufacturers Association) I don’t think that qualifies in any sense as a union. I think it’s just an example of the Right co-opting the language of the Left (and to some extent riding on the reputation of the EPMU given the not-dissimilar initials) to promote itself as some form of expert on employment issues, when it is little more than a right-wing lobby group providing some basic services to its members (businesses) in aid of oppressing and crushing (sorry, “appropriately monitoring, restructuring and right-sizing” as they say) their workforce.

                  • John Shears

                    Well said TRP Ake Ake Ake

                  • cyclonemike

                    Good on you TRP. Nice to hear defence of a union from the real world.

            • Murray Rawshark

              Tautoko. I can’t see any need for it either. I also agree with Phil about the Engineers’ Union.

          • phillip ure

   homs all ya

            ..and tho’ ‘intoxicating’ – heroin/opiates do not make you particularly ‘addled’..

            ..(hence so many doctors morphine-addicts – but still functioning..

            ..and i wd cast yr mind back to an aussie tv show called ‘hypothetical’..

            ..where they once presented a panel of doctors etc. with the scenario of a choice of being operated on by a surgeon under the influence of a variety of intoxicants – both illegal and legal..

            ..all of those chose the surgeon under the influence of opiates..

            ..but anyway..i stopped using it long before the clark govt arrived on the scene..

            ..and i remember well the silences of the union movement during those nine long years of ‘worthy’ poor-people vs. ‘unworthy’ poor-people twisted-bullshit from clark..

   is clearly you who needs the history-lessons…(‘hic!’

            ..and let’s not go near the union response to the neoliberal/rightwing revolution undertaken by both national and

            ..a tad embarrassing – given that response was to drop their trousers – and bend

            ..and/but anyway – ad homs all ya

            • te reo putake

              Sorry, Phil, none of what you ‘wrote’ made any sense. Better luck next time. Still, terrific that a dedicated non-worker like yourself is so passionate about workers rights. Sure, you haven’t got a clue what’s been going on in the union movement, but that’s not going to stop you having an ignorant and inaccurate whinge is it?

              Almost 10 o’clock, must be time for a mood adjuster. Off you go, the pipes, the pipes are calling, Philly boy.

              • do keep up..!

                vapouriser dear boy – vapouriser..

                so..still just ad

                (me a ‘non-worker’..?!


                ..i actually view what unite have done/achieved as a wake-up call as to the possibilities..

       a largely comotose/moribund/self-interest-driven/ riven union movement..


       good news in general..

       about the union movement seek/find some testicular-fortitude..?

                ..and swing in behind a drive to make zero-hour contracts illegal in all industries..?


                ..and if not..why fucken not..?

                • DoublePlusGood

                  I think you two need to get a room and make mad, passionate love or something.

                • Atiawa

                  …. and do you think unites success would have been achieved without the support/reporting of the issue by the right-wing msm?

                  • i agree that campbell live deserve their kudos in helping bring about this change..

                    ..their publicity/coverage has been invaluable..

           articulating the public disgust/disquiet at this clear abrogation of any civil/human-rights..

                    ..of a marker that a society/culture has got something very very wrong..

                • Bearded Git

                  You are blog-clogging again Phillip

                  • greywarshark

                    That’s a point Phillip. The elongated nature of your stream of consciousness style takes up a lot of screen space. Of course that has been mentioned before. But some of us are slow learners, unable to adapt and keep up with the pace of change. But not you I thought Phillip?

                • Dave

                  FFS it starts again. Grow up, the both of you. Phil, do some research before running your mouth and TRP, if you don’t like what he has to say, don’t make the slapdown personal. Aren’t you a mod on this site? You should know better. Now sort your behaviour out or there won’t be any pudding.

                  • what have i said that is inaccurate..?

                    • Dave

                      Now, why in the blue fuck would I want to engage so you can throw a huge long diatribe that is only really one paragraph? Go and hit the bong, and pack me one while you’re there 😛

              • Murray Rawshark

                Your attitude to the unemployed would fit well with that of the NAct caucus. Since when is unemployment or underemployment something to use to belittle someone?

                You have also not managed to give one example of anything progressive the Engineers’ have done in the last twenty years.

                • Oh, do piss off you pompous git. I have no ‘attitude’ to the unemployed or unemployed. From what Phil has told us, he doesn’t fit into either category.

                  I can’t give any examples of what the EU has done because there are none for the simple reason that the EU has ceased to exist, which is the point I was making to Phil right at the start. So, yeah, if you’re going to lecture unions on what you perceive to be their failings (on Mayday, too!) at least try and get the names right. And try and find something to moan about from this century, eh.

                  And, no, I’m not going to list the achievements of the union that actually is the successor to the EU, except one, which is that it saved Unite from financial collapse. Do your own homework for the rest.

                  • Murray Rawshark

                    Are you actively lobbying for a grand coalition between Labour and National? You’ve got acting like an arrogant and abusive fool down pat already. Simon Bridges could learn off you.

                    I have no idea why you even bother being on a “left wing” blog. Your attacks on Phil are almost indistinguishable from those he used to receive on Whalespew.

                    But yeah, you’ll keep going. Almost never discussing anything in good faith, but always with vicious defence of the right of the labour movement. Did you understand the power imbalance between FJK and Amanda Bailey? The way you attack Phil on here suggests that maybe you didn’t.

                    I personally do not think you should have any role in moderation of this blog. You are far too abusive. However, I know I don’t get a say.

                    • Oooh, I think I smell burning martyr! Get off your high horse, Murray. Funnily enough, my moderation is pretty, er, moderate. Just a couple of bans so far I think. And it’s pretty easy to tell the difference between moderation and commentary. Moderation is in bold black ink. Commentary is on a blue background. I haven’t moderated anyone in this thread, nor would I, because it’s simply a discussion. Nobody has crossed any line, except you trying to tell TS who should and shouldn’t be a moderator. But even then, you’re not being moderated by me. So, get over yourself, why doncha.

                      PS, I wrote an post touching on the power imbalance between Key and the cafe worker. You must have missed it.

                    • Murray Rawshark

                      Saying what I think is not telling TS what to do and I know that TS is not an entity anyway. It is giving an opinion. It’s nothing to do with martyrdom whatsoever. It is at most a call for a better atmosphere in these discussions. When you call Phil drug addled and whatever else, there is no way he can (nor should he) respond in kind, irrespective of the colour of your posts.

                      With Amanda Bailey, it always would have been in her mind that FJK was PM and had power that was inaccessible to her. He claimed he was being silly to show that he had no power. I didn’t swallow his explanation.

                    • weka

                      One thing that might help clarify matters is a policy whereby all moderation is done in bold. Sometimes moderators make moderation comments in a comment, which confuses things.

                    • Murray Rawshark

                      Moderation is done in bold. I am not complaining about moderation.

                    • Bill

                      I’d kind of like this exchange to stop about here because it just can’t go anywhere. People will have read the comments being referred to and arrived at their own conclusions.

                      If, Murray, you don’t appreciate how a given commenter interacts with others, then don’t interact with them. Simple.

                      If they then interact with you, you could try politely pointing out to them why you don’t wish any interaction with them. I eventually did that with Pete George and it worked out fine for both of us. 😉

                      Of course, there’s always the option to keep the to and fro going until it reaches it’s almost inevitable conclusion. (shrug)

                    • Murray Rawshark

                      Fair enough, Bill. The comments are there, as you say. Stopping here.

                    • Anne

                      Meant for Bill (not MR)

                      I’d kind of like this exchange to stop about here because it just can’t go anywhere.

                      Thanks Bill.

                      It’s hard to take when two people who make a lot of quality contributions to this site get their knickers in a twist and start blasting one another. It almost always looks like misunderstanding of viewpoints to me. You’re on the same side mates so just agree to differ eh? (Hope I haven’t made things worse)

                    • Tiger Mountain

                      The Voice of Reason apparently wants people to cough up the acronym EPMU–Engineering Printing and Manufacturing Union–a union whose published early history I happen to have a copy of–“Advocate, Educate, Control, the History of the NZ Engineers Union 1863–1983”. Put together in the 80s by labour movement historian the late Bert Roth. EPMU came about via amalgamations mainly in the ECA era.

                      It is no secret that most NZ unions sprang from crafts and guilds and even the “goat riders”–masons and were “creatures of legislation” and the award system after the first Labour govt. (oh for an industry award or MECCA system spanning the country now some would say!)

                      There was only ever a small group of class struggle based unions that drove the renaissance of the Federation of Labour after the brave but disastrous 1951 lockout. The Engineers should not be considered to be part of that group. They supported the ICFTU rather than the communist/non aligned WFTU international centres during the cold war era and were generally pro Anglo and anti Soviet.

                      The EPMU was a membership raider in the 90s until a concord was reached with other unions. I had personal dealings with many members and officials of the Engineers in the car industry for 20 years so have some insight into these matters. Some diabolical sell outs occurred with officials of that union.

                      They are a largely conservative union with a changing membership such as migrant workers at telcos, not so much the “tradesmen” of decades back. Aircraft engineers jobs diminishing and cabin crew etc assuming more importance. An amalgamation with the Service and Food Union may happen too. So a mixed record, they represent members well in work sites but are not a campaigning union, and advocate voting Labour basically.

                  • North

                    Just watching (over months)……and taking it in……I end up with the feeling that you’re the prime pompous (and hectoring) git around here TRP.

                    P.Ure sticks his neck out. You lecture……interminably……superior being you. (Hah !)

                    • North

                      Like an up-himself school prefect, albeit of the Left. Left is cool as long as it’s Right what ? Just a feeling. Shared I suspect by more than a few. You can piss all over me if that spins your wheels……I don’t give two fucks. You bully far too often for me to care. Gimme the honest if imperfect P.Ure any day !

            • greywarbler

              Asking the hard questions eh Phil. They bounce off a complacent impervious surface. And by the way don’t take comments about drugs etc to heart and bother to reply to justify yourself. You know it’s only a smoke-screen to avoid looking clearly at the actual point you are making.

              Unions failed us in NZ. But then we all have failed to understand that real democracy is more vulnerable than we realised. So a sham, fake one has replaced the original one. It could be said that it had a back-door fault like Microsoft. They only keep their systems safe with frequent patches. Most of us never thought of attacks to democracy, or weaknesses needing watching and repairing. So the hackers got in, and physically chopped our rights, advantages, and means of living away.
              But the fake democracy still fronts up like the background flats or panels to the actors in an old-style western film.
              Look behind, there is nothing there but some strong bracing posts.

              • rawshark-yeshe

                a friendly question, please, are you greywarshark returned to your original name ?

                • greywarshark

                  Hi r-yeshe
                  Yes I’ll stick to greywarshark for now. I took a break and went into default mode to warbler when I came back. I still am concerned about the rawshark- thing and Hager so I will stick with the name for the present. One day when things get better? I’ll be a chirpy bird again. Might even go to fantail – they are very inspiring – quick and alert. I’d like to be the same.

              • Murray Rawshark

                Interesting point of view. Of course, there are those who say the back door faults were purposely left in Microsoft products. I think unions began with better intentions than those of Bill Gates.

                And the comments about drugs could apply to me too. It’s not a very supportive world for people who do get off the stuff, except for those around them who see what they’ve overcome and subsequently achieved. Anyone who beats smack and doesn’t join NAct deserves credit.

                • greywarshark

                  I do feel that there are unsung heroes out there who have made a very good life which seems commendable. But if one only knew the lower point they had started from, they have actually climbed an everest of their own.
                  Now and then I read of a muso or entertainer who has got over drugs and that’s amazing.

    • tracey 4.1

      Cos he has a 1 year fixed contract which requires him to travel????(sarc)

      I think it is normal for more than a year to pass before a not guilty pleader faces trial?

      • Rosie 4.1.1

        I have no idea, however I know of a case of attempted rape and sexual assault. The offending took place in October 2014. He was arrested two days after the complaint was laid and the Police charged him approximately two weeks later. It could have been less. The “alleged” offender will plead not guilty.

        My friend whose close relative was the victim has said they have been told the trial will most likely take place in October 2015 – a year on from the crime taking place.

        This person by the way no longer has name suppression but the media never reported it. I thought they might have given his former role in the community.

        In the case of The Prominent New Zealander, won’t it be over one year? I can’t recall the timeline but it feels like this case has been going on for quite some time, it feels like it is intentionally dragging along.

        • McFlock

          investigation august last year, first appearance jan this year I think.

          I suspect we need more high court judges and staff in this country, if a year is not an unusual period to await trial.

          • Murray Rawshark

            We could always stop the idiotic war on drugs. That would free up a lot of court time.

      • rawshark-yeshe 4.1.2

        Very bad system if there are young people involved .. absolute torture for them and favours the accused. Be very good to have a compassionate and faster process for under-age victims.

        • Tracey

          Hopefully their evidence has already been recorded and they are being supported, leaving the realities of the trial more for the perpetrator than the victims (depending on ages of victims of course).

          • rawshark-yeshe

            a decent man mighty plead guilty to save further harm … oh, that’s right ….. no possibility here.

            • Tracey

              This person probably 100% believes that whatever they did was not wrong… no way he/she will plead guilty in those circumstances.

              Many folks who live their lives viewing their actions ONLY through their own eyes are genuinely oblivious to the consequences/impacts of their actions.

              • rawshark-yeshe

                fair comment Tracey .. it’s all perception after all.

                • Tracey

                  I believe that anyone wanting to be an elected representative needs to be able to display and show evidence of empathy. How else can they adequately represent others?

                  • rawshark-yeshe

                    So how can we measure that ? Some voters seem able to fooled a lot of the time …

                    • Tracey

                      SIGH – I know…

                      I guess some just don’t think it is a necessary trait in the first place. For some reason many think having made alot of money in a niche career is all you need to lead a country…

                    • rawshark-yeshe

                      sigh indeed ….. and btw, when I was on silence from here a few weeks back with Murray Rawshark, I read some of the pieces you posted about the Winebox and your representation of Paul White .. how amazing. Have been re-reading the three books by Wishart … what a catastrophic mess. And I do see ugly parallels today with Ben Rachinger … maybe one day you can talk some more about things you knew. I was astonished Wishart did not choose to interview you, or was it rather chose not to interview you ? If ever there is more you can say, I would be deeply interested. There is never a time I pass by that underpass pillar and don’t think about what the truth might have been — it has always haunted me. We suffer a very dirty and well-disguised underbelly.

              • Murray Rawshark

                I would guess that most child molesters think there’s nothing wrong with what they do. It would be hard to see how they’d do it otherwise. I know that many think of themselves as victims, seduced by the wiles of small children. One I came across thought he was doing 12 year olds a favour by grooming them to be “loved” later on. I did him a favour by preparing him for the bashings he would face in prison. Unfortunately the parents of the two girls chose to ignore what he was doing.

    • Stuart Munro 4.2

      They’ll be trying to position the ‘prominent’ trial midway between elections to minimise public response. The longer it’s delayed the more trouble it will cause in 2017…

      If the Key junta actually makes it to 2017 – it would only need a handful of Gnats to be run over, ingest a surfeit of lampreys, or spontaneously combust, and we’ll be rid of this odious assemblage of incompetent villains and vermin.

    • veutoviper 4.3

      I don’t think there is any ‘conspiracy’ here in terms of the timing of the trial date.

      Regrettably, the length of time for a criminal case to get to trial here in NZ is long, particularly a jury trial, and usually takes over a year.

      In this instance, while there have obviously been a number of District Court pre-trial hearings already, the case was only transferred from the District Court to the High Court a week or so ago. IIRC from working for some time in the justice sector, the time already taken in relation to these earlier DC hearings would not be taken into account in scheduling the HC trial.

      Here is some information from the MOJ website on the factors that may affect the timing of a trial.

      The links at the bottom are to old 2011 waiting times.

      Here are the latest High Court waiting times as at Dec 2014.

      As you will see, average waiting times at Auckland High Court are over a year at 390 days, while median times are only slightly under at 341 days.

      The National total average and median times are 408/332.
      Gisborne is the quickest with 206/206.
      Palmerston North is the longest – average at 955 but median is 308.
      Whangerei is the second longest at 634/606.

      EDIT – and Jan Logie on this subject, from the side bar, is worth reading.

      • weka 4.3.1

        thanks veuto, that’s what I was wondering, so good to have some information.

      • Bearded Git 4.3.2

        A trial in the middle of next year, and then an appeal may take this close to the election. The slower the better.

      • Tracey 4.3.4

        Interestingly the guy who killed the WINZ workers in September was due to start his trial today but it was delayed. So that’s 7 months.

        I note Alex Swney, former head of Heart of the City had his sentencing delayed yesterday to a “future time” due to the Judge being ill.

      • Rosie 4.3.5

        Thanks VV, helpful as ever 🙂

  4. Jeeves 5

    …was listening to some old music last night while on the treadmill….. couldn’t help but be struck by this old Pink Floyd jem:


    Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away
    Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air
    You better watch out
    There may be dogs about
    I’ve looked over Jordan and I have seen
    Things are not what they seem.

    What do you get for pretending the danger’s not real
    Meek and obedient you follow the leader
    Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel
    What a surprise!
    A look of terminal shock in your eyes
    Now things are really what they seem
    No, this is no bad dream.

  5. Pasupial 6

    Long-serving [meals on wheels driver] volunteer Dr Terry Hearn, of Dunedin, will quit if the board votes to privatise southern hospital kitchens at its meeting next Thursday.

    ”I am now certain that the assumption was made – whether casually or deliberately – that Compass could continue to rely on volunteer drivers and allow them to subsidise its profits.[“]…

    Meanwhile, HBL, the Government entity that developed the deal with Compass, has admitted the cost of the business case has blown out to $4.1 million…

    A protest against the plan will be held tomorrow, in the Octagon, starting at noon.

    • Tracey 6.1

      this is EXACTLY the point… a company is using unpaid labour to create a profit for itself. I am pretty sure in another century we had another word for it. For now it is just plain exploitation. I do hope they vote with their feet… The good folks of Dunedin, I feel sure, would start cooking in their own homes and delivering until Meals on Wheels returns.

      • Pasupial 6.1.1

        Yeh, there didn’t seem to be much I could add to Hearn’s comment. Hopefully the Dunedin Labour MPs will be at the protest tomorrow. It makes sense that King would be commenting as Health spokesperson, but the workers and volunteers also need support from their electorate MPs:

        As well as financial cost, it was important to remember the significant personal cost for the kitchen workers enduring years of uncertainty, Mrs King said.

        The Service and Food Workers’ Union has threatened possible legal action against the southern board, and Mrs King said that should prompt the board to reject the proposal, as it could not afford a legal fight. Some boards had rejected the proposal, and Southern should do the same.

        The problem with the SDHB is that they are likely to have an overseer appointed by the government to supervise cost-saving. It’s all starting to feel a bit like Environment Canterbury when inconvenient democracy threatened private profits.

    • weka 6.2

      “Meanwhile, HBL, the Government entity that developed the deal with Compass, has admitted the cost of the business case has blown out to $4.1 million…”

      What’s a business case? Surely that can’t be the work done to change the system?

      Go Terry Hearn!!

    • greywarshark 6.3

      Wasn’t there another interesting bit to the Compass-HBL story? That even after a huge amount of dollar input from the government enabling the HBL to do their important health budget-dieting work, they still have charged all the hospitals they have worked in for their services? If so – Oh the sweet, sweet, non-fattening pleasurable taste of a government sinecure. Especially in the hospital context. A cure for as much sin as you want to indulge in paid by a generous and caring government!

  6. CC 7


    Auckland ratepayers are about to be screwed over by Willis Bond – the Wellington vulture company that makes hay on the privatization of prime publicly owned land.

  7. Clemgeopin 8

    * David Cameron makes gaffe in first breath over tax credits ‘raid’
    * Furious voter skewers David Cameron over foodbanks saying ‘people have died’

    Furious voter skewers David Cameron over foodbanks saying ‘people have died’

  8. Draco T Bastard 9

    Cowardly Firing of Australian State-Funded TV Journalist Highlights the West’s Real Religion

    “SBS supports our Anzacs” — and apparently bars any questioning or criticism of them. That mentality sounds like it came right from North Korea, which is to be expected when a media outlet is prohibited from saying anything that offends high government officials. Any society in which it’s a firing offense for journalists to criticize the military is a sickly and undemocratic one.

    This is the type of society that the West is becoming. One where the propaganda of the ‘elite’ can no longer be questioned. The old term for such is Lèse-majesté.

    • Murray Rawshark 9.1

      This is one of the developments that really worries me – people losing their jobs for speaking out privately against the obscene madness of the militarisation of our national stories. It has really worrying fascistic undertones.

  9. joe90 10

    Aww, helicopter ride.

    What could go wrong with a bite or two?

    Everything, as it turned out.

    Not at first. For an hour, I felt nothing. I figured I’d order dinner from room service and return to my more mundane drugs of choice, chardonnay and mediocre-movies-on-demand.

    But then I felt a scary shudder go through my body and brain. I barely made it from the desk to the bed, where I lay curled up in a hallucinatory state for the next eight hours. I was thirsty but couldn’t move to get water. Or even turn off the lights. I was panting and paranoid, sure that when the room-service waiter knocked and I didn’t answer, he’d call the police and have me arrested for being unable to handle my candy.

  10. Ovid 11

    Happy May Day everyone. Great news as Maccas comes to its senses over zero hour contracts.

  11. rawshark-yeshe 12

    Look how much we have just sold again to overseas buyers !! Surely it’s time for a review and radical change to the OIO system.

    Oh, and look see what Mike Sabin’s new corporate role has achieved? Selling to Chinese one of the loveliest holiday camps in Northland.

    We are goneburgers at this rate. sigh …..

    • Gosman 12.1

      Yes. Abolish it as it is a waste of money.

      • Murray Rawshark 12.1.1

        I agree. Get rid of it and stop land sales to non-residents.

        • rawshark-yeshe

          That would take care of it ! Not much chance tho the way this govt sells residence status to many who should not have it. .. always available if you have the millions in your bank account … and absurdly with no with need to prove you have it in the same account the next day ! Recipe for corruption isn ‘t it ?

        • weka

          “Get rid of it and stop land sales to non-residents.”

          Do you mean people without residency status, or people that don’t live here?

          • Murray Rawshark

            I mean people who don’t live in Aotearoa.

            • weka

              How about NZ Citizens who live overseas? I think would have to be exempt.

              • Murray Rawshark

                Why? So they can be landlords? They don’t need the house to live in if they’re living overseas.

                • weka

                  No, but they might need it when they get back. For some people it’s not just a house, it’s a home.

                  And if they sell to someone who turns it into a rental, how is that any different than the person going overseass renting it out?

                  They might already be a landlord. If I was renting off them and they’re good landlords, I’d prefer that they didn’t have to sell when they go work overseas for a year, esp if they sell to someone who then ends the tenancy.

                  I can think of any number of scenarios where it makes sense to not force NZ citizens (and people with residency) to sell.

                  • felix

                    Yes and…

                    In most of the countries these NZ citizens might be living in, they don’t have the option of buying a house as well as their house in NZ

                    • weka

                      I’m also thinking about the impact on housing prices in NZ if every person that owns a property that goes overseas for a time has to sell, and then rebuy when they come back.

                  • Murray Rawshark

                    I didn’t say anything about Kiwis having to sell their house when they leave. I have no idea where you got that idea from. Not being able to buy is not the same as being forced to sell.

    • greywarshark 12.2

      Thanks for that rawsharke y. About the sale to overseas interests. Do you know who sold Whatuwhwhi? Who were the owners who sold the camp? I wondered if it was the Maori interests who had big debts after a business failure.

  12. greywarbler 13

    I didn’t realise how well embedded we were in the English speaking Quinad till I heard about the Five Eyes spying.

    Now while looking at wikipedia on passports I see –
    “the Five Nations Passport Group, an international forum for cooperation between the passport issuing authorities in Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States “.

    I thought it was three 6’s that were supposed to be the mark of a coming bad end. Five seems to be getting bad connotations also.

  13. adam 14

    Was listening to this – The Russel Norman questions

    Is it just me or, was there a rising level of contempt from the government benches for Mr Norman when ask questions from the public.

    • rawshark-yeshe 14.1

      The disdain has been there for a long time, imho.

      Also Carter’s disdain and vile shouting rudeness yesterday at Green MP Catherine Delahunty as she tried ( in vain) to have a document tabled in the house. Carter yelled and became so angry, he is just unsuitable for the role. He looks miserable always, until someone on the right tries to make ‘a funny’ of some kind, but he metes out his worst acerbic and furious misery on Greens, Winston and various Labour front benchers. He is an impatient and and acidic angry man.

      His divisive partisan behaviour shames the office and betrays us all.

      • adam 14.1.1

        I was waiting for the point of order on When he yelled at Catherine

        Point of order: When did the PM ‘s abusive style of bluster, become the norm for the speaker of the house, Mr Speaker.

        Of course the member would be ejected – but hey be worth it.

        • rawshark-yeshe

          Metiria did try with her excellent point of order .. but Carter should apologise for the ‘unbecoming of the house’ manner in which he yelled at Catherine.

          Can you imagine this man as our Ambassador in London ? OMFG.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Can you imagine this man as our Ambassador in London ?

            Would it be any worse than having JK as our PM?

            Actually, if you look around the media a bit (except the MSM in NZ) it’s obvious that conservatives around the world are losing the plot.

            • rawshark-yeshe

              It’s not a competition for worse, worserer or worserest although it can surely look like it. Each of them is an unmitigated disaster for Aotearoa with Groser about to become yet another in Washington. ( Bet Helen can’t wait sarc.)

              • adam

                But it does seem to be a competition, rawshark-yeshe. And, Key now heads their international conservative organisation – May there name never pass my lips.

                I bet they are feeling chuffed about that.

            • Tracey


              I commented about this somewhere else this morning. IN Australia they swallowed the misogynistic anti-Gillard schpiel from CT but very quickly have realised their error, Same in UK, but here… 3 terms later…

              • adam

                These Tories, have become full blown with their women hating of late. it’s just Sick.

  14. Agora 15

    The *real* game of thrones in Saudi Arabia while Key was there ..

  15. greywarshark 16

    Radio nz had this – has everyone heard about it? Get the links here –

    We like a good chinwag at and now we want you to join the conversation too.
    Today we’re trialling a new forums feature – rnztalk. You will also find it at the foot of this piece and on today’s weekly political column, Power Play.
    We are starting small so we can see what you think. We won’t be adding forums to everything we publish but we will, depending what you say, start steadily increasing their use over time.

    Rnztalk uses a platform called Discourse – a 100 percent open source system – which, like us, wants to encourage a better level of discussion.

    This means things are a little bit different from your normal commenting systems. Comments are post-moderated, placing the onus on you to be mature, considered, caring and reasonable in what you write.

    My bold. It’s not a place for keyboard warriors to unleash hell and fury. We want people to feel safe and respected on our forums. Before you hit the publish button stop, pause and think. Play the issue never the person.
    Click here for some guidelines which should help with that process.

    Joining is easy – simply use your existing Facebook or Twitter account or sign up separately.
    And, let us know what you think. Thanks.

    • Tracey 16.1

      Cool, another place for people to say “what they reckon”

    • weka 16.2

      Interesting they are going for post-moderation. Good on them.

      • Tracey 16.2.1

        As long as they are even handed in what they let through

        • weka

          “what they let through”

          what they take out. They’re not moderating until after the comments have been published.

          • Tracey

            okee dokee, sorry. you mean moderation after comment not moderation of posts?.

  16. Michael 18

    Bernie Sanders, independent democratic socialist US Senator, has announced a run for President. On the Democratic ticket – he will be battling Clinton.

    He refuses all corporate donations. I think he can take on the billionaire class – or at least give them a good scare. He’s probably to the left of Elizabeth Warren.

    He wants to take on Wall Street and break up the banks, truly tax the wealthy, move America to a universal single-payer health system, make universities debt-free, vastly reduce poverty by expanding benefits, double the minimum wage, take on tax evasion by corporations and the rich, oppose US intervention in the middle east, oppose the TPP (and all corporate trade deals), empower unions, expand worker cooperatives, and take on corporate money in politics truly address climate change, etc.

    He was a founding member of the Progressive Caucus which is composed of the left/’progressive’ of the Democratic Party. And himself, who is an independent.

    He might not win the primary, but he will shake the establishment and confront Hillary Clinton on these issues. The progressive wing of the Party is growing in influence. (i.e. Bill Clinton would *not* get chosen as a nominee today), and she’ll need to make it clear that she’ll appease them. Although I would hope that he could win outright.

    • ianmac 18.1

      Michael. Last night I watched the Russell Brand/Millibrand interview.
      The summary from Russell at about 13:25 was so like your post from Bernie Sanders:
      “He wants to take on Wall Street and break up the banks, truly tax the wealthy, move America to a universal single-payer health system, make universities debt-free, vastly reduce poverty by expanding benefits, double the minimum wage, take on tax evasion by corporations and the rich, oppose US intervention in the middle east, oppose the TPP (and all corporate trade deals), empower unions, expand worker cooperatives, and take on corporate money in politics truly address climate change, etc.”
      And will we have a similar call from our MPs?

      Mind you, Russell reckons it is the power of the people who cause changes.

      • Tracey 18.1.1

        It’s not politicians who made zero contracts go away for certain NZ workers… in fact they allowed them to surface in the first place.

      • Michael 18.1.2

        Yes, well it would be the power of the people that would get Bernie elected. Bernie refuses all corporate donations – not a single cent comes from corporations. 60+% of his funding comes from small, individual donations and the remainder comes mostly from labour, environmental, and civil liberties groups.

        This is in contrast to the establishment US politicians who need corporate money to win. Hillary Clinton will raise nearly us$3 billion. The Koch Brothers, billionaire oil barons, are planning on spending nearly $1 billion of their own money to fix the election for the Republican Party.

        Bernie would need to be elected via a grassroots movement – first, to overcome Hillary who has the backing of moneyed interests, and then to win the election against a Republican candidate who will receive billions in corporate donations. It would take a mobilisation of ordinary people – a politician that represents people.

  17. How much longer before the police decide they need to act on Gloriavale? Last nights segments confirmed sexual, physical and emotional as well as possibly financial abuse.

    As yet I don’t think we have a Waco in the making, but given their disregard for the law when it comes to underage sex and their determination in isolating rebels, I wonder how they would react to the Police turning up with CYFS in force?

    • ianmac 19.1

      The problem might be in obtaining evidence that would stand up in court.

      • weka 19.1.1

        CYFS can still get involved though.

        Is Gloriavale that community on the West Coast that’s been there for decades, or is it a new one?

      • Nick 19.1.2

        Talking of Court costs I would love to know the legal status of this, not to mention the ethics…
        In effect the “cult” are wanting a road to them closed, the local Council has agreed BUT the Council is likely to go to court to defnd their action against other parties. Here’s the dubious bit. The “cult” are going to pay the Councils court costs. In other words an interested party is paying the council to defend a decision against other interested parties. How bent is that?

    • ianmac 19.2

      Must have heard you Robert.
      On the Herald: “A free phone line has been set up by police for people wanting to discuss experiences at the secretive Christian community Gloriavale.

      The line will be answered by Tasman District Police and has been established to manage the growing number of people wanting to discuss Gloriavale, police said.”

      • Nick 19.2.1

        One allegation on the TV3 program which wold be easy to investigate is that somebody at Gloriavale received a benefit from WINZ without the knowledge of the person they were claiming for. The person the benefit was claimed for only found out when thy were sent a demand for overpayment. That is fraud, theft, using somebodies identity for criminal purposes…you name it.

    • northshoreguynz 19.3

      Wonder how much they donate to the National Party?

  18. adam 20

    It’s one of those times, when the Christian left and right need to stop fighting. And go look at this community, and see how far off the path it really is. I think many will be shocked at how far off they are.

    Personally I’m convinced it’s christian in name only – as some of the utterance of Neville Cooper make him a cult figure not a christian. I find it abhorrent he says his group is based on christianity, to somehow justify that he is not a cult. Indeed the whole Cooperite Community is a cult – just look at this video.

    This is by definition cultish behaviour.

    Time for the Bishops and the other church leaders to step up and challenge this group.

    • Murray Rawshark 20.1

      I hope you don’t mean Bishop Tamaki 🙂

      • adam 20.1.1

        OH my goodness no.

        That man is in all probability leading a cult as well. He has crossed the line a few times.

        Making himself a bishop, was just odd.

  19. veutoviper 21

    Here is a Friday afternoon giggle – time for a wine.

    English on being Acting Prime Minister.

  20. Murray Rawshark 22

    When moderators are making personal attacks on commenters, I feel something has gone very wrong. I have no idea what we can do about it.

    • weka 22.1

      Can I make a couple of suggestions? When addressing commenters who also are at times moderators, think of them as commenters unless they explicitly say they are moderating. I took everything trp said upthread to be him as a commenter, not an author (which means he can be as rude/obnoxious as everyone else, including phil).

      The other thing is to stick to the issue and if necessary the behaviour. Your comment comparing trp to Simon Bridges strikes me as rude/abusive as anything trp said to phil. We don’t have to get personal like that (I was on the verge of calling trp out for the druggie put downs), but can instead either focus on the issue (unions), or the behaviour (keep it neutral).

      In the end I think we have to take our cues from the authors, and that is going to vary from author to author hugely. I have no problem calling trp out on things, but there is going to be a limit and the authors are the ones that get to say where that limit is for them. I respect that because they are the ones that do the hard yards here, and without them I/we wouldn’t have a place like this to hang out in.

      Sorry, that probably doesn’t help a lot, but I sense your frustration and hope there is a way that being here on ts can be ok for you. Lots of people value your input, myself included.

      • b waghorn 22.1.1

        ” When addressing commenters who also are at times moderators, think of them as commenters unless they explicitly say they are moderating. I took everything trp said upthread to be him as a commenter, not an author ”

        That sounds a bit like something despicable key would say about which hat he was wearing at the time. I think we should expect a higher standard from those with power, even if it is only the power to ban a commenter.

        • weka

          Except in this instance there are two distinct hats. There is a boundary between trp the author/moderator and trp the commenter. I’m kind of surprised that this isn’t obvious, or is a problem for some people. It’s why I’ve suggested upthread that a policy of moderation only happening in bold would make things clearer (the boundary gets blurred when moderators moderate in a comment).

          For me personally, when trp is commenting in Open Mike or on a post he didn’t write, he doesn’t have any more power over me than anyone else. Ditto the other day when I was arguing with CV and Red on a post they didn’t write. That they are also sometimes authors was irrelevant and we just argued quite vehemently about the politics. Sometimes it was quite heated and rude. That’s the kaupapa of the place (robust debate).

          I really don’t get the issue about power here. It’s not like trp is going to hold it against you if you argue with him (although I think he will eventually reach a limit were he is being harassed as an author/moderator). If anyone else had been relating with phil like he did today, they would have been told off as well by other commenters. What’s the problem?

          (btw, JK used the hats thing as a way of avoiding responsibility. I’d like to see how you think I’ve just done that, or trp).

          edit, in the end I think it comes down to people not being comfortable with the power imbalance, and I’m kind of curious why it’s coming up so much in the past few months. It’s not like this is new, afaik it’s always been like this on ts.

          • b waghorn

            You’re missing my point, trp is further up the food chain on the standard than most of us so should behave in a manner fitting the position of moderator.
            Most here IMO come here in the hope that in some small way it might make a difference so having it degenerate into pointless and pointed abuse will drive people away.

            • weka

              trp isn’t further up the food chain in the way you imply, and people might want to take a step back and consider why they see him that way. His behaviour today is entirely consistent with the rules and culture of the place. Have a go at his behaviour by all means, but there’s not need to have a go at him more because he is sometimes also an author with moderating responsibilities. He wasn’t in that role today and there is no onus on him to behave any better than you or me or phil or Murray etc. as long as he’s relating within the general rules and kaupapa.

    • veutoviper 22.2

      I understand and empathize with your comments, MR. I am not about to stir up a hornets’ nest in returning to past events, but I watched from the sidelines and said nothing – not through cowardice but through anger. If I had said my piece, I would not be here now. I totally respect Lprent’s right to moderate as he sees fit; certain others, not so. Time will tell; but I am looking for alternatives.

      • weka 22.2.1

        veuto, would you mind saying why you are ok with Lynn moderating as he sees fit but not some others?

        • veutoviper

          weka. I am happy to do so, but not tonight. Its been a heavy week, and its Friday night so I am going to enjoy a few wines with friends in town for the weekend. Also, I want my response to be a considered one, not a reaction. I don;t always agree with you, but I respect you so want to respond, so it may take a day or so.

    • The Murphey 22.3

      Using threats of banning to extort ‘evidence’ then when provided with ‘evidence’ still issue a ban…

      Any level of responsibility is too much for certain personality types which is why the sort of behaviour looks set to continue

      The answer to the question Murray is remove the responsibility of moderation because it was too much to expect it would not go the way it has

      • Murray Rawshark 22.3.1

        Moderation can’t be removed completely. For example, think of the case where someone might mention Sabin in a legally dubious context. That needs moderating or TS could end up being prosecuted.

        • The Murphey

          Hi Murray yes I agree but was not referring to there being no moderation

          My response was in reference to the personal abuse you mentioned as it is my observation there has shown to be a lack of suitability for moderator status in recent appointments

          [Drop it. I believe points of concern, various unhappinesses etc, have been proffered in a number of comments. But self martydom offenses includes “including telling us how to run our site or…” ]- Bill

      • One Anonymous Bloke 22.3.2

        Your false narratives are not “evidence”. That would be a link or two, which you didn’t supply.

  21. Penny Bright 23


    1 May 2015

    “Privatisation of three Auckland suburbs through the transferal of 2,800 State houses.”

    “The Housing Lobby believe the messages being portrayed over Bill English and Nick Smith’s announcement on the transferal of 2,800 State houses from Housing NZ to the Tamaki Redevelopment Company (TRC), is both misleading and untrue,” says Housing Lobby Spokesperson Sue Henry.

    “In letters delivered by Housing NZ to every tenants’ household on Thursday
    29 April 2015, it states ‘nothing will change for tenants’.”

    “The situation will drastically change for tenants, if the management and ownership of 2,800 State houses are transferred to a wholly commercial enterprise.”

    “Two main changes will be that the Tamaki Redevelopment Company will be able to sell or borrow against a freehold asset already paid for and owned by the public.”

    “The impression tenants have is that the Tamaki Redevelopment Company can offer transfers and allocations.”

    “It needs to be made clear that it is the Ministry of Social Development that now has this responsibility.”

    “One question that needs to be asked is if the Tamaki Redevelopment Company have no experience with tenants why are they there?

    Is their real role to assist with the transferal of this State Housing asset directly into the hands of private property development companies?

    The other question – is there any truth in the allegation that the Tamaki Redevelopment Company has already applied to Auckland Council to reconfigure massive tracts of reserve lands, parks, and school grounds for intensified housing?”

    “What exactly was discussed under ‘CONFIDENTIAL’ session at the Auckland Council Governing Body meeting held behind closed doors with the public excluded, on Thursday 30 April 2015? (Pg 93)

    “C1 Additional New Special Housing Area Request – April 2015 Auckland Development Committee Recommendation ”

    “What didn’t they want the public to know?”

    “State houses in Tamaki should remain under Housing NZ stewardship – end of story.”

    Sue Henry

    Housing Lobby


  22. weka 24

    Any chance people could lessen the embedding of video in comments? The space takes up half my laptop screen, so doubles the amount of scrolling. The Roger Waters one today is also freezing my iphone screen. I don’t mind the odd embed, but there seems to have been a spate of them in the past few days.

    • Not sure how to avoid embedding them, weka. I put a link in to a vid the other day and the full clip turned up, much to my surprise. Might be something to do with the wordpress upgrade the other day that also changed the emojis.

  23. les 25

    excuse me for being behind the times but is there anything Fletcher says here that has been proven correct!

    • ianmac 25.1

      Do you mean proven incorrect les? Hard to believe that no one here or in 5 Eyes is collecting data of any sort on NZers.

      • ianmac 25.1.1

        Of course is it possible that Fletcher resigned because the “rules” were in fact being broken? Just wondering.

        • Anne

          It has been mooted here in the recent past that the revelation the GCSB have been spying on South Pacific neighbours and other friendly nations – including China – for the NSA may have had a bearing on his decision to resign well before his term was up.

  24. joe90 26

    On it goes.

    Sources said the medical examiner found Gray’s catastrophic injury was caused when he slammed into the back of the police transport van, apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van.

    • marty mars 26.1

      If the police don’t change their attitude to people of colour especially men then the whole place is going to burn. I cannot accept these men getting shot and killed by police just because of the colour of their skin. Change now police because people are not taking this shit and they never will again.

    • Bill 26.2

      “a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van” (my emphasis added)

      Reminds me of the time my hands were cuffed behind my back in the back of a police van. When they entered the cop shop yard they jumped on the brakes…real hard. Luckily I’d sidled up to the back of the cab and merely got pressed to the metal…otherwise I’d have gone flying with no way to put my hands out in order to lessen any impact.

      Hmm….so maybe Gray’s death was a result of ‘standard practice and procedure’?

      • joe90 26.2.1

        Waikeria to the mount in the back of a Kingswood maria is something I’d rather forget. Never forget the soup and toast* (and pisspot) when I arrived though.

        (The late great Lou Sherwin had the kitchen screw by the shorts*.)

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    The Make It 16 campaign to lower the voting age is launching this afternoon, and they have already announced plans to challenge the law in court:The campaign, named "Make it 16" will launch at Parliament on Friday, with plans to take their case to the High Court, testing the rights ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    22 hours ago
  • Israel’s elections herald a long siesta
    by Daphna Whitmore The long years of Netanyahu’s reign are drawing to an end. For years he has epitomized reactionary zionism as he oversaw hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers seize land in the West Bank. There are now 700,000 settlers, putting an end to the myth that Israel was ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    23 hours ago
  • Petrol companies promise prices will come back down once peace is restored to the Middle East
    BP, Z and Mobil all insist that petrol price hikes are temporary, “in a very literal sense.” The nation’s major petrol providers are trying to allay customer fears over prices, promising that they’ll move to lower them again “immediately” when the Middle East is returned to its formerly peaceful state. ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 day ago
  • All Blacks unveil boat for Rugby World Cup 2019
    South African coach Rassie Erasmus says he has no idea what they’re going to do about the boat. In a highly anticipated press conference this afternoon, All Blacks coach Steve Hansen has finally unveiled the team’s boat for its Rugby World Cup 2019 campaign. In a press conference that went ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 days ago
  • An increasingly shoddy coverup
    The Operation Burnham inquiry continued to question senior NZDF staff today, and their shoddy coverup over their knowledge of civilian casualties continue to fall apart. If you recall, first, we were asked to believe that it was all a series of "mistakes and errors": a senior officer with multiple degrees ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • If we are to avoid making the earth uninhabitable, we need to rapidly decarbonise our civilisation, and cut emissions to zero as quickly as possible. This seems like an impossible task, but its not. Pushing hard on a few technologies and trends will let us halve emissions in a decade:Greenhouse ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • A further attack on transparency
    The Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill (No 2) had part of its committee stage yesterday. its a generally tedious bill about the nitty-gritty of local government reorganisation. But it includes a clause making the Local Government Commission subject to the Ombudsmen Act, and hence the OIA. Great! Except of ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Ihumātao and Treaty settlements
    Yesterday Ihumātao's mana whenua reached a consensus that they would like their land back, and asked the government to negotiate with Fletcher's for its return. The government's response? Try and undermine that consensus, while talking about how doing anything would undermine existing Treaty settlements. The first is just more bad ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Protecting our history
    Its Suffrage Day, the 126th anniversary of women winning the right to vote (but not stand in elections) in New Zealand. And to celebrate, the government has bought Kate Sheppard's house in Christchurch:The government has bought Kate Sheppard's former home in Christchurch for more than $4 million. The Ilam villa ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Climate Change: Ostracising the coal-burners
    The UN climate summit is happening in new York next week, and unlike previous years, coal-burners and denier-states are not being invited to speak:Leading economies such as Japan and Australia will not be invited to speak at next week’s crunch UN climate change summit, as their continued support for coal ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Jojo Tamihere Salutes Herr Goff.
    Get Back Jojo! The elation in Mayor Phil Goff’s camp may be easily imagined as they watched social media light up in indignation at challenger John Tamihere’s "Sieg Heil to that" quip. Just when JT’s notoriously right-wing, sexist and homophobic stains were beginning to fade back into his ‘colourful’ past, ...
    2 days ago
  • Hard News: A fun but flawed weed documentary
    Patrick Gower is good value when he's high. Not that I've ever, you know, got stoned with him. But in the second part of his documentary Patrick Gower on Weed, he does what you'd expect in a modern weed documentary and immerses himself – first with a doctor, then a ...
    2 days ago
  • Candidate Survey: Western Bay of Plenty – Local Body Elections 2019
    We surveyed candidates on their attitudes to issues facing the Western Bay Region, find out what they think: “Closing the Gap” Tauranga, one of the area groups of Income Equality Aotearoa NZ Inc., has surveyed all candidates in the three local body elections to discover attitudes to some basic issues ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    3 days ago
  • Project Nettie calls on scientists to defend biology
    Please spread widely, and sign, to support science and rationalism over the new irrationalism sweeping universities and institutions.  PROJECT NETTIE Sexual reproduction, the generation of offspring by fusion of genetic material from two different individuals, evolved over 1 billion years ago. It is the reproductive strategy of all higher animals ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    3 days ago
  • I’m glad I don’t live in Auckland
    Just when I was thinking that Palmerston North's mayoral race (which includes a convicted child molester / public wanker and a convicted child beater) was the worst in the country, Auckland mayoral candidate John Tamihere opened his mouth:Auckland mayoral candidate John Tamihere is being slammed for using the words "sieg ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Index of Power Update, 2018-19: China #2
    We reprint below an article from the excellent website the Economics of Imperialism by Tony Norfield This is an update of the statistics for my Index of Power, using data for 2018-19 and discussing what a country’s ranking reflects. The major change is that China’s rank has shifted up and ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    3 days ago
  • Climate Change: A history lesson
    Why is New Zealand climate change policy so crap? The Herald this morning has a long article on the twists and turns of climate change policy in New Zealand [paywalled / depaywall script], which shows where we've been. The short version is that the government first began worrying about this ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • What the All Blacks Mean to Us
    The All Blacks have been, for more than a century, arguably the most successful International sports team in the world. But they are more than that; even for those Kiwis who are immune to the charms of rugby (and there are more than a few), the All Blacks are ambassadors ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    3 days ago
  • No one is born into the wrong body
    A short and incredibly powerful speech from a young lesbian woman. No one is born in the wrong body. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    4 days ago
  • Contempt
    Back in June, the UK Court of Appeal ruled that that country's continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia were unlawful. So you'd expect that the UK government stopped approving them, right?Of course not:The government has apologised for breaching a court ruling against the sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Covering up the cover-up
    Yesterday NZDF officials were put on the stand about the lies they had told over Operation Burnham, making implausible claims that it was all a big mistake. But along the way, we learned they had already been put on the spot about it by a previous Defence Minister, who had ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Not as important as they think they are
    Farmers have been whining a lot lately, about the methane targets in the Zero Carbon Bill, about Canterbury's proposed nitrogen limits, and about the government's new proposals to stop them from shitting in our lakes and rivers. These policies are "throwing farmers under the tractor", they will force farmers off ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Behind Every Good Woman Should Stand – Another Good Woman.
    Alone, Alone, All, All, Alone: To argue that the Prime Minister is the victim of her advisers’ failure to keep her informed may offer Jacinda some measure of exoneration – but only at the cost of casting her as a hopeless political ingénue. A star-dusted muppet, whose only purpose is to ...
    4 days ago
  • Poor quality, poorly educated kiddie ‘Journalists’ spreading fake news
    In times of hysteria about the “World coming to an end” and “rising sea levels” so-called ‘Journalists’ who can barely spell words longer than four letters are having a ball! Though the majority of the Public have worked out that manmade climate change is nothing short of pseudo-science, and the ...
    An average kiwiBy
    4 days ago
  • Chris Trotter on the BFD
    I don't want to give pblicity to certain parts of the internet that are better left to fester in their own irrelevance (I know, a bit like this place) but the listing of Chris Trotter as a 'author' on Cameron Slater's spinoff website, the BFD requires some explanation.Now, I don't ...
    4 days ago
  • Sex is not a spectrum
    The text below is a Twitter thread by Heather Heying that explains the essence of sexual reproduction and it long evolutionary history. She is an evolutionary biologist and a “professor-in-exile” after she and her husband, Bret Weinstein, stood up to supporters of an enforced “Day of Absence” for white staff and teachers ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    5 days ago
  • Climate Change: Trees, aviation, and offsets
    With crunch time for new Zealand climate policy approaching, most of the New Zealand media have got on board with a global reporting effort to cover the issue. There's one strand of stories today about polling and what it shows about changing public attitudes to the crisis, but the strand ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Pissing-Off The Israelis Is A High-Risk Strategy.
    Dangerous Foes: For those readers of Bowalley Road who feel disposed to dismiss any prospect of an Israeli destabilisation of New Zealand politics, the example of the United Kingdom repays close attention. Ever since the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the British Labour Party, the Israelis have sanctioned, funded and ...
    5 days ago
  • Something to go to in Wellington
    Make It 16, the youth-led campaign to lower New Zealand's voting age, is holding an official campaign launch at Parliament this Friday from 16:30. If you'd like to attend, you can register using EventBrite here. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • A founding member responds to Peace Action Wellington
    by Don Franks It was a lovely sunny Wellington afternoon with blue skies above  the beaches.  In Courtenay Place, political activists packed out a stuffy upstairs room for an important meeting. The assembled pacifists, anarchists, communists and independent young radicals of Peace Action Wellington felt the need for a mission ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    5 days ago
  • “Mistakes and errors”
    Current and former NZDF top brass are being publicly grilled this week by the hit and run inquiry over their public responses to allegations of civilian casualties. Previously, they've claimed there were no casualties, a position which led them to lie to Ministers and to the public. Now, they're saying ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • “Homosexuality is same-sex attraction and relationships, not heterosexuals with delusions of gende...
    by Rafael D. Quiles (gender-critical gay man from Puerto Rico) The writing on the wall is right in people’s faces and people just don’t see it or don’t want to. What could actually possess a heterosexual male to want to feminize himself and claim that he is a lesbian? Because ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    6 days ago
  • Trump: “Where’s my favourite dictator?”
    From the Wall Street Journal:Inside a room of the ornately decorated Hotel du Palais during last month’s Group of Seven summit in Biarritz, France, President Trump awaited a meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al Sisi. Mr. Trump looked over a gathering of American and Egyptian officials and called out in ...
    6 days ago
  • Magdalen Burns, 1983-2019, fighter for women’s liberation
    by the Redline blog collective At Redline we are very saddened to hear of the death of Magdalen Burns who passed away on the morning of Friday, September 13 (British time). Magdalen was a great fighter for the rights of women in general and lesbian women in particular, a defender ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    7 days ago
  • Parliament and the Executive
    The Brexit issue has certainly brought with it a series of apparently difficult constitutional issues, many of them concerning the respective roles of the executive and parliament. Most of them arise because of the unwillingness of MPs, despite their professions to the contrary, to be bound by a constitutional rarity ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • The Abigail Article; Martyn Bradbury’s Article, and My Response
    . . This blogpost is different to my usual format of reporting on issues… Since July 1011, I have blogged on a variety of political issues; near always political and/or environmental; mostly highly critical of the previous National Government. Other issues included Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and repression of ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    1 week ago
  • Police will have to wear silly Buckingham Palace hats from now on, says Police Minister
    Those close to the Police Minister believe the initiative may be the result of Nash “seeing a great deal” on AliExpress. In a move that comes seemingly out of nowhere, Police Minister Stuart Nash announced this afternoon that he expects all frontline staff to don bearskin hats, famously worn by ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • A sensible crackdown
    The government has released its Arms Legislation Bill, containing the second tranche of changes to gun laws following the March 15 massacre. And it all looks quite sensible: a national gun register, higher penalties for illegal possession and dealing, tighter restrictions on arms dealers and shooting clubs, and a shorter ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • California bans private prisons
    Private prisons are a stain on humanity. Prison operators explicitly profit from human misery, then lobby for longer prisons terms so they can keep on profiting. And in the US, prison companies run not only local and state prisons, but also Donald Trump's immigration concentration camps. Faced with this moral ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Why PPPs are a bad idea
    When National was in power, they were very keen on Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) - basicly, using private companies to finance public infrastructure as a way of hiding debt from the public. They were keen on using them for everything - roads, schools, hospitals. But as the UK shows, that "service" ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • A Movement That No Longer Moves.
    Moving And Shaking: There was a time when people spoke matter-of-factly about the “labour movement” – a political phenomenon understood to embrace much more than the Labour Party. Included within the term’s definition was the whole trade union movement – many of whose members looked upon the Labour Party as ...
    1 week ago
  • NZ ‘left’ politically embracing extreme postmodernism
    by Philip Ferguson Much of the left, even people who formally identify as marxists, have collapsed politically in the face of postmodern gender theory of the sort pioneered by American philosopher Judith Butler. For Butler even biological sex is socially constructed. “If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • The obvious question
    The media is reporting that the (alleged) Labour party sexual assaulter has resigned from their job at Parliament, which means hopefully he won't be turning up there making people feel unsafe in future. Good. But as with everything about this scandal, it just raises other questions. Most significantly: why the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The moment I found out that you found out, I acted swiftly
    By Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern I am every bit as angry as you are. I am every bit as disappointed as you must be. The people with power, oversight and the ability to do something about these processes within the Labour Party should be ashamed. Whoever those people are, I ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • This is why people hate property developers
    Property developers think there is an "oversupply" of houses in Auckland:High turnover rates and falling prices may be a sign that there are too many new houses going in to some parts of Auckland, commentators say. [...] Property developer David Whitburn said there was a "bit of an oversupply" in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Australia to Pacific: “Fuck you, you can all drown”
    World leaders are meeting in New York in two weeks for the 2019 Climate Action Summit, where they are expected to announce new and more ambitious targets to stop the world from burning. But the Australian Prime Minister won't be there, despite being in the USA at the time:Scott Morrison ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Implausible ignorance
    Labour Party president Nigel Haworth resigned yesterday over the party's sexual assault scandal. But while that's good news, its unlikely to take away the stench of a coverup. Because according to Paula Bennett in Parliament yesterday, pretty much everyone in the Prime Minister's office was involved as well:I have been ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Labour’s Fatal Flaw.
     Two-Faced? Labour insiders' commitment to the neoliberal status quo puts them at odds with their party’s membership; its trade union affiliates; and a majority of Labour voters, but this only serves to strengthen the perception they have of themselves as a special elite. Among the lesser breeds, they’ll talk up a ...
    1 week ago
  • Ten reasons the Tories do NOT want an election
    There has been a lot of talk about Boris Johnson wanting an election, and he has blustered with great gusto about 'chicken' Jeremy Corbyn refusing one, but I think there are many reasons why he is secretly glad he has been refused the opportunity:The Tories are an utter rabble,tearing themselves ...
    1 week ago
  • Prorogation Illegal, rule Scottish judges
    Scottish appeal court judges have declared that Boris Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament in the run-up to the October Brexit deadline is unlawful. The three judges, chaired by Lord Carloway, Scotland’s most senior judge, overturned an earlier ruling that the courts did not have the powers to interfere in the prime ...
    1 week ago
  • Let me explain what I meant by Everyday New Zealanders
    By Simon Bridges. The following is a press release from the office of Simon Bridges, leader of The National Party. Key ora, New Zealand. Happy Maori Language Week. Look, I’m writing to you today because I want to clear something up. There’s been a lot of kerfuffle around some things ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Yes, the SIS is subject to the Public Records Act
    I understand there's some stuff going round about how the SIS "was removed from the list of public offices covered by the Public Records Act in 2017". The context of course being their records derived from US torture, which will be disposed of or sealed. The good news is that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • An evidence-based discussion of the Canadian fluoride/IQ study
    Dr. Christopher Labos and Jonathan Jarry discuss the recent Canadian fluoride/IQ research. They provide an expert analysis of the paper and its problems. Click on image to go to podcast. The critical debate about the recent ...
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Australia in denial
    Australia is burning down again, and meanwhile its natural disaster minister is denying climate change:Australia’s minister responsible for drought and natural disasters, David Littleproud, has said that he doesn’t “know if climate change is manmade”. Clarifying earlier comments that the question is “irrelevant” when considering the Coalition government’s response to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Philippines activist speaking on the Duterte tyranny
    Auckland Philippines Solidarity is excited to host Professor Judy Taguiwalo for a speaking tour of NZ in September. She is a well-known activist in the Philippines and was a political prisoner under the Marcos dictatorship. Professor Taguiwalo briefly served as a Cabinet member under President Duterte but was forced from ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Disgust
    I have no special insights to offer on the Labour sexual assault coverup. All I have is disgust. Disgust that an organisation could fail its people so badly. Disgust that they punished the victims rather than the perpetrator. Disgust that its party hacks are apparently blaming the victims for demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women calls out Greens’ censorship
    This open letter to the Green Party was penned after an opinion piece by Jill Abigail, a feminist and founding member of the party, was censored by the Greens’ leadership. (Redline has reprinted her article here).The intolerance of the Green Party leaders and their acceptance of the misogyny of gender ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    2 weeks ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    2 weeks ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    2 weeks ago

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