Open mike 01/05/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 1st, 2015 - 203 comments
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203 comments on “Open mike 01/05/2015 ”

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  1. Saarbo 1
    1 May 2015 at 6:28 am

    Im not an Economist so can anyone explain: given the $7 billion reduction in dairy exports, why is GDP growth still forecasted to be positive?

    Given that $7 billion export reduction hasn’t effected GDP growth to any great degree, why do Economists and the MSM think its such an important measure?

    • Sans Cle 1.1
      1 May 2015 at 10:26 am

      GDP measures “productive” economic activity. Some economists think that all productive economic activity is good, and get excited about GDP growth. E.g. Rebuilding Christchurch leads to lots of “productive” activity in the form of construction activity.
      Other economists don’t get excited about GDP growth, and look to other measures/indicators, such as Genuine Progress Indicatiors, Happiness Indexes etc. at a national level, and different indicators at a sub-national level: income levels, the distribution of personal income, househol income, household income by number of people in that household etc.

      Politicians worldwide have really only had explicit economic growth goals for between 50-100 years.
      They think it’s such an important measure because it is a headline indicator, and is conventionally used. I doubt many of them understand what lies beneath it, what it measures or how it is measured.
      The $7billion reduction in dairy exports will have significant effects on the NZ economy in the next few years. Dairy farmers will have less money to reinvest, hence less economic activity. There will be a slight lag until these effects are felt. Meanwhile, selling houses in Auckland counts as “productive” economic activity (even though it is deadweight exchange of existing goods – banks profit, but their profits are mainly realised in Australia; government benefits from increased taxes associated with house sales: e.g. Estate agent’s income tax etc).
      The govt are being disingenuous when they keep on spouting on about how steady the economy is. It is not really doing so well, as far as I can tell. I cannot see newly emerging innovative industries sprouting all through the land.

      • Bearded Git 1.1.1
        1 May 2015 at 11:19 am

        I heard an economist on RadioNZ this morning (can’t find it now online) saying that half of the 3% GDP growth in NZ is due to immigration. (My guess is another 1% is due to the Chch rebuild.)

        He said that immigration numbers need to be cut so that pressure is taken off the Akl housing market and so that the RB can cut interest rates.

        For the life of me I can’t see why the RB isn’t cutting rates since we have some of the highest rates in the world, very low inflation and an over-valued dollar. Other methods than interest rates should be being used to dampen house prices in Akl, either by the RB or the government.

        Unfortunately Key and his speculator mates are happy with the housing bubble in Akl, so the rest of the country has to suffer. Talk about lack of vision.

        • Bearded Git 1.1.1.1
          1 May 2015 at 11:33 am

          Paul Glass of Devon Funds Management was the guy (not sure if he is an economist). It’s here and worth a listen:

          http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/201752603

          • greywarshark 1.1.1.1.1
            1 May 2015 at 11:50 am

            That Devon Funds chap seemed to have some ideas that are new, cf to the usual guff from bank economists.

            I think I heard the idea that GDP should be on a population basis so it has more reality and value when analysing the figures. DTB might like to put it better. But it seems to me that some of the stats we are presented with are just measures of a trend in a statistic that never measured the right thing in the right way in the first place.

            Like the fun way of telling how a country is doing by studying the price of hamburgers, or the length of women’s skirts (one measure that has been actually posited by objective market watchers, not by finky camera guys)

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2
        1 May 2015 at 11:42 am

        This comment of mine seems to apply:

        …the implication is that we have increasing GDP while the economy looks to be in a recessionary state.

  2. North 2
    1 May 2015 at 7:22 am

    Steven Joyce – http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11441346

    Sydney taxi on standby, meter running for 9 hours…….$1,248. The arrogance adds up and adds up and adds up. I recall similar from Parata on a one day trip to Sydney a few years ago shortly after appointment as a minister.

    And of course smug wee ponce Simon Bridges had ALWAYS planned to come to Northland on ministerial duties in the 10 days prior to the Northland buy-election on 28 March…….”let ‘them’ eat cake” screams.

  3. phillip ure 3
    1 May 2015 at 7:35 am

    big ups! to the unite union – eh..?

    – for their david vs. goliath zero-hours-contracts victory over the fast-food behemoths..

    unite – showing what a union can/should do..

    the (rightwing) engineers union..?..following their long (self-interest-driven?) tradition ?

    – not so much..eh..?

    • tracey 3.1
      1 May 2015 at 8:27 am

      Agree with it being great work from Unite. As I was trying to explain to Gosman the other day, trying to change a government is not the only way to bring about change. people on the ground, working hard, fighting battles one by one, achieve change.

    • te reo putake 3.2
      1 May 2015 at 8:40 am

      There hasn’t been a ‘right wing’ EU for twenty years, Phil. Do try and keep up.

      • phillip ure 3.2.1
        1 May 2015 at 8:47 am

        ‘twenty-yrs’..eh..?

        i must be imagining their long-silences during that poor-bashing clark labour govt time..eh..?

        when/what changed..?..

        ..what did i miss..?

        ..do tell..!

        • te reo putake 3.2.1.1
          1 May 2015 at 8:54 am

          Mate, there’s so much you missed during your drug addled lost years you’d need a team of historians working in shifts to get you up to date. Best you just start from scratch and just assume your vague memories are as unreliable as your prose is unreadable.

          • left for deadshark 3.2.1.1.1
            1 May 2015 at 9:46 am

            pointless abuse TPR

            • te reo putake 3.2.1.1.1.1
              1 May 2015 at 9:55 am

              I agree, that’s why I called Phil on it.

              • left for deadshark …
                1 May 2015 at 10:04 am

                @ TPR,..Head shake…

                That should read TRP,..i’m dyslexic.

                or are you going too slam that to.

                • te reo putake …
                  1 May 2015 at 10:11 am

                  If it’s true, why would I slam it? Phil made an unsubstantiated, anachronistic and inaccurate attack on a trade union. I responded and he doesn’t like it. His issue, not mine. His ignorance, not mine.

                  Isn’t it funny that most attacks on the union movement come from people who aren’t union members? And in Phil’s case, someone who is not even in the workforce. But no worry, the unions have fought against prejudiced and ignorant attacks for many, many years, wherever they come from.

                  • phillip ure …
                    1 May 2015 at 10:35 am

                    “..an unsubstantiated, anachronistic and inaccurate attack on a trade union’..

                    ..really..?..do educate me/others on the glowing-history of activism of the engineers union since the douglas/rightwing-revolution started..eh..?

                    ..and of course an interesting compare/contrast is with the australian union movement – who refused to unbuckle..

                    ..and yr sneers @ ‘non-workers’ as others – is symptomatic of all that is/has been wrong with the union movement..

                    ..in that if you are not ‘one of us’/part of that particular union..

                    ..they couldn’t give a fuck about you..

                    ..unions have become covens of self-interest..

                    ..groups of people looking up their own arses..

                    ..do tell how the history of the engineers union does not fit that profile..?

                    • te reo putake …
                      1 May 2015 at 11:00 am

                      Educate yourself, Phil. Start with the name of the union, then go forward from there.

                    • weka …
                      1 May 2015 at 11:05 am

                      while I appreciate you needing to keep it real here trp, any chance you could not drag this out all day?

                    • phillip ure …
                      1 May 2015 at 11:17 am

                      i took yr suggestion..

                      ..and both googled and binged ‘new zealand engineers union activism’..

                      ..yeah..nah..eh..?

                      ..zip/zero/nada..

                      (and i am not just citing the engineers’ union..

                      ..the union movement in the main – is an example of successful divide and rule by the elites..par excellence..

                      ..self-regulating dissonance..

                      ..and with a history of uncaring/self-interest/outright-perfidy since the mid-80’s..

                      ..which..again..is why the breaking of that ‘consensus’/pattern by unite..

                      ..is both so refreshing..and as i said..a glimpse at the possiblities for good if the union movement removes their collective-heads from their collective-arse-holes..

                      ..and got their act together..

                      ..and thought/worked for the collective-good..

                      ..and not just for themselves/their members..

                      ..and screw everyone else..

                      ..eh..?..

                    • te reo putake …
                      1 May 2015 at 11:24 am

                      You’re so out of touch, Phil, it’s mind boggling. I think I’ll take up weka’s suggestion. All the best, anyway. It’s good having you back, even if you’re still not making any sense.

                    • phillip ure …
                      1 May 2015 at 11:31 am

                      and if looking for ideas of what to do..?

                      ..they could start with a three-fer..

                      ..no more zero contracts – for anyone..

                      ..a living wage for all workers..

                      ..and a universal basic income…for all citizens..

                      ..that three-fer will end the evils of child-poverty etc..

                      ..in one fell swoop..

                      ..no more just pissing around the edges of these problems/ills..

                      ..what are you waiting for..?

                    • Tautoko Mangō Mata …
                      1 May 2015 at 1:37 pm

                      I disagree. Unite union has been well represented at virtually every protest from TPPA, selling State assets, Oil drilling protests, opposing charter schools, defending Glen Innes State housing, etc., supporting Gaza/Palestine.
                      In fact Unite’s Joe Carolan often speaks to the crowd at these protest rallies and is commonly on a megaphone during the marches. The Unite people have been very visible o social justice issues on all issues of social justice.

                  • left for deadshark …
                    1 May 2015 at 10:54 am

                    If thats true,.. ?

                    isn’t it funny,..no, but I think thats inaccurate,most attacks,as you call it come from other unions ie employers Associations and other organizations.I have been an union organizer, and my reading of history shows sexism, racism, and sometimes even corruption, and of coarse your attack on the underemployed is also unhelpful, but seeing you are an author here as well, and making some good points too, I will dissed from further comment, and read more thoroughly terms and conditions here on TS.

                    • the pigman …
                      1 May 2015 at 7:16 pm

                      left for deadshark I can’t stand the patronising/sarcastic style either. I think it turns most people right off (they are just so used to it they don’t say anything), so thanks for speaking up.

                      However, regarding the EMA (Employers and Manufacturers Association) I don’t think that qualifies in any sense as a union. I think it’s just an example of the Right co-opting the language of the Left (and to some extent riding on the reputation of the EPMU given the not-dissimilar initials) to promote itself as some form of expert on employment issues, when it is little more than a right-wing lobby group providing some basic services to its members (businesses) in aid of oppressing and crushing (sorry, “appropriately monitoring, restructuring and right-sizing” as they say) their workforce.

                  • John Shears …
                    1 May 2015 at 4:18 pm

                    Well said TRP Ake Ake Ake

                  • cyclonemike …
                    1 May 2015 at 5:19 pm

                    Good on you TRP. Nice to hear defence of a union from the real world.

            • Murray Rawshark 3.2.1.1.1.2
              1 May 2015 at 3:43 pm

              Tautoko. I can’t see any need for it either. I also agree with Phil about the Engineers’ Union.

          • phillip ure 3.2.1.1.2
            1 May 2015 at 9:47 am

            so..ad homs all ya got..eh..?

            ..and tho’ ‘intoxicating’ – heroin/opiates do not make you particularly ‘addled’..

            ..(hence so many doctors morphine-addicts – but still functioning..

            ..and i wd cast yr mind back to an aussie tv show called ‘hypothetical’..

            ..where they once presented a panel of doctors etc. with the scenario of a choice of being operated on by a surgeon under the influence of a variety of intoxicants – both illegal and legal..

            ..all of those chose the surgeon under the influence of opiates..

            ..but anyway..i stopped using it long before the clark govt arrived on the scene..

            ..and i remember well the silences of the union movement during those nine long years of ‘worthy’ poor-people vs. ‘unworthy’ poor-people twisted-bullshit from clark..

            ..it is clearly you who needs the history-lessons…(‘hic!’..eh..?..)

            ..and let’s not go near the union response to the neoliberal/rightwing revolution undertaken by both national and labour..eh..?

            ..a tad embarrassing – given that response was to drop their trousers – and bend over..eh..?

            ..and/but anyway – ad homs all ya got..eh..?

            • te reo putake 3.2.1.1.2.1
              1 May 2015 at 9:54 am

              Sorry, Phil, none of what you ‘wrote’ made any sense. Better luck next time. Still, terrific that a dedicated non-worker like yourself is so passionate about workers rights. Sure, you haven’t got a clue what’s been going on in the union movement, but that’s not going to stop you having an ignorant and inaccurate whinge is it?

              Almost 10 o’clock, must be time for a mood adjuster. Off you go, the pipes, the pipes are calling, Philly boy.

              • phillip ure …
                1 May 2015 at 10:05 am

                do keep up..!

                vapouriser dear boy – vapouriser..

                so..still just ad homs..eh..?

                (me a ‘non-worker’..?..eh..?..whoar..!

                http://whoar.co.nz/ )

                ..i actually view what unite have done/achieved as a wake-up call as to the possibilities..

                ..to a largely comotose/moribund/self-interest-driven/ riven union movement..

                ..eh..?

                ..so good news in general..

                ..so..how about the union movement seek/find some testicular-fortitude..?

                ..and swing in behind a drive to make zero-hour contracts illegal in all industries..?

                ..eh..?

                ..and if not..why fucken not..?

                • DoublePlusGood …
                  1 May 2015 at 10:30 am

                  I think you two need to get a room and make mad, passionate love or something.

                • Atiawa …
                  1 May 2015 at 10:33 am

                  …. and do you think unites success would have been achieved without the support/reporting of the issue by the right-wing msm?

                  • phillip ure …
                    1 May 2015 at 12:08 pm

                    i agree that campbell live deserve their kudos in helping bring about this change..

                    ..their publicity/coverage has been invaluable..

                    ..in articulating the public disgust/disquiet at this clear abrogation of any civil/human-rights..

                    ..of a marker that a society/culture has got something very very wrong..

                • Bearded Git …
                  1 May 2015 at 11:22 am

                  You are blog-clogging again Phillip

                  • greywarshark …
                    1 May 2015 at 11:32 am

                    That’s a point Phillip. The elongated nature of your stream of consciousness style takes up a lot of screen space. Of course that has been mentioned before. But some of us are slow learners, unable to adapt and keep up with the pace of change. But not you I thought Phillip?

                • Dave …
                  1 May 2015 at 12:20 pm

                  FFS it starts again. Grow up, the both of you. Phil, do some research before running your mouth and TRP, if you don’t like what he has to say, don’t make the slapdown personal. Aren’t you a mod on this site? You should know better. Now sort your behaviour out or there won’t be any pudding.

                  • phillip ure …
                    1 May 2015 at 12:31 pm

                    what have i said that is inaccurate..?

                    • Dave …
                      1 May 2015 at 12:47 pm

                      Now, why in the blue fuck would I want to engage so you can throw a huge long diatribe that is only really one paragraph? Go and hit the bong, and pack me one while you’re there 😛

              • Murray Rawshark …
                1 May 2015 at 3:48 pm

                Your attitude to the unemployed would fit well with that of the NAct caucus. Since when is unemployment or underemployment something to use to belittle someone?

                You have also not managed to give one example of anything progressive the Engineers’ have done in the last twenty years.

                • te reo putake …
                  1 May 2015 at 4:03 pm

                  Oh, do piss off you pompous git. I have no ‘attitude’ to the unemployed or unemployed. From what Phil has told us, he doesn’t fit into either category.

                  I can’t give any examples of what the EU has done because there are none for the simple reason that the EU has ceased to exist, which is the point I was making to Phil right at the start. So, yeah, if you’re going to lecture unions on what you perceive to be their failings (on Mayday, too!) at least try and get the names right. And try and find something to moan about from this century, eh.

                  And, no, I’m not going to list the achievements of the union that actually is the successor to the EU, except one, which is that it saved Unite from financial collapse. Do your own homework for the rest.

                  • Murray Rawshark …
                    1 May 2015 at 4:56 pm

                    Are you actively lobbying for a grand coalition between Labour and National? You’ve got acting like an arrogant and abusive fool down pat already. Simon Bridges could learn off you.

                    I have no idea why you even bother being on a “left wing” blog. Your attacks on Phil are almost indistinguishable from those he used to receive on Whalespew.

                    But yeah, you’ll keep going. Almost never discussing anything in good faith, but always with vicious defence of the right of the labour movement. Did you understand the power imbalance between FJK and Amanda Bailey? The way you attack Phil on here suggests that maybe you didn’t.

                    I personally do not think you should have any role in moderation of this blog. You are far too abusive. However, I know I don’t get a say.

                    • te reo putake …
                      1 May 2015 at 5:36 pm

                      Oooh, I think I smell burning martyr! Get off your high horse, Murray. Funnily enough, my moderation is pretty, er, moderate. Just a couple of bans so far I think. And it’s pretty easy to tell the difference between moderation and commentary. Moderation is in bold black ink. Commentary is on a blue background. I haven’t moderated anyone in this thread, nor would I, because it’s simply a discussion. Nobody has crossed any line, except you trying to tell TS who should and shouldn’t be a moderator. But even then, you’re not being moderated by me. So, get over yourself, why doncha.

                      PS, I wrote an post touching on the power imbalance between Key and the cafe worker. You must have missed it.

                    • Murray Rawshark …
                      1 May 2015 at 5:52 pm

                      Saying what I think is not telling TS what to do and I know that TS is not an entity anyway. It is giving an opinion. It’s nothing to do with martyrdom whatsoever. It is at most a call for a better atmosphere in these discussions. When you call Phil drug addled and whatever else, there is no way he can (nor should he) respond in kind, irrespective of the colour of your posts.

                      With Amanda Bailey, it always would have been in her mind that FJK was PM and had power that was inaccessible to her. He claimed he was being silly to show that he had no power. I didn’t swallow his explanation.

                    • weka …
                      1 May 2015 at 6:03 pm

                      One thing that might help clarify matters is a policy whereby all moderation is done in bold. Sometimes moderators make moderation comments in a comment, which confuses things.

                    • Murray Rawshark …
                      1 May 2015 at 6:06 pm

                      Moderation is done in bold. I am not complaining about moderation.

                    • Bill …
                      1 May 2015 at 6:06 pm

                      I’d kind of like this exchange to stop about here because it just can’t go anywhere. People will have read the comments being referred to and arrived at their own conclusions.

                      If, Murray, you don’t appreciate how a given commenter interacts with others, then don’t interact with them. Simple.

                      If they then interact with you, you could try politely pointing out to them why you don’t wish any interaction with them. I eventually did that with Pete George and it worked out fine for both of us. 😉

                      Of course, there’s always the option to keep the to and fro going until it reaches it’s almost inevitable conclusion. (shrug)

                    • Murray Rawshark …
                      1 May 2015 at 6:07 pm

                      Fair enough, Bill. The comments are there, as you say. Stopping here.

                    • Anne …
                      1 May 2015 at 6:25 pm

                      Meant for Bill (not MR)

                      I’d kind of like this exchange to stop about here because it just can’t go anywhere.

                      Thanks Bill.

                      It’s hard to take when two people who make a lot of quality contributions to this site get their knickers in a twist and start blasting one another. It almost always looks like misunderstanding of viewpoints to me. You’re on the same side mates so just agree to differ eh? (Hope I haven’t made things worse)

                    • Tiger Mountain …
                      1 May 2015 at 7:01 pm

                      The Voice of Reason apparently wants people to cough up the acronym EPMU–Engineering Printing and Manufacturing Union–a union whose published early history I happen to have a copy of–“Advocate, Educate, Control, the History of the NZ Engineers Union 1863–1983”. Put together in the 80s by labour movement historian the late Bert Roth. EPMU came about via amalgamations mainly in the ECA era.

                      It is no secret that most NZ unions sprang from crafts and guilds and even the “goat riders”–masons and were “creatures of legislation” and the award system after the first Labour govt. (oh for an industry award or MECCA system spanning the country now some would say!)

                      There was only ever a small group of class struggle based unions that drove the renaissance of the Federation of Labour after the brave but disastrous 1951 lockout. The Engineers should not be considered to be part of that group. They supported the ICFTU rather than the communist/non aligned WFTU international centres during the cold war era and were generally pro Anglo and anti Soviet.

                      The EPMU was a membership raider in the 90s until a concord was reached with other unions. I had personal dealings with many members and officials of the Engineers in the car industry for 20 years so have some insight into these matters. Some diabolical sell outs occurred with officials of that union.

                      They are a largely conservative union with a changing membership such as migrant workers at telcos, not so much the “tradesmen” of decades back. Aircraft engineers jobs diminishing and cabin crew etc assuming more importance. An amalgamation with the Service and Food Union may happen too. So a mixed record, they represent members well in work sites but are not a campaigning union, and advocate voting Labour basically.

                  • North …
                    1 May 2015 at 9:16 pm

                    Just watching (over months)……and taking it in……I end up with the feeling that you’re the prime pompous (and hectoring) git around here TRP.

                    P.Ure sticks his neck out. You lecture……interminably……superior being you. (Hah !)

                    • North …
                      1 May 2015 at 9:46 pm

                      Like an up-himself school prefect, albeit of the Left. Left is cool as long as it’s Right what ? Just a feeling. Shared I suspect by more than a few. You can piss all over me if that spins your wheels……I don’t give two fucks. You bully far too often for me to care. Gimme the honest if imperfect P.Ure any day !

            • greywarbler 3.2.1.1.2.2
              1 May 2015 at 10:57 am

              Asking the hard questions eh Phil. They bounce off a complacent impervious surface. And by the way don’t take comments about drugs etc to heart and bother to reply to justify yourself. You know it’s only a smoke-screen to avoid looking clearly at the actual point you are making.

              Unions failed us in NZ. But then we all have failed to understand that real democracy is more vulnerable than we realised. So a sham, fake one has replaced the original one. It could be said that it had a back-door fault like Microsoft. They only keep their systems safe with frequent patches. Most of us never thought of attacks to democracy, or weaknesses needing watching and repairing. So the hackers got in, and physically chopped our rights, advantages, and means of living away.
              But the fake democracy still fronts up like the background flats or panels to the actors in an old-style western film.
              Look behind, there is nothing there but some strong bracing posts.

              • rawshark-yeshe …
                1 May 2015 at 11:21 am

                a friendly question, please, are you greywarshark returned to your original name ?

                • greywarshark …
                  1 May 2015 at 11:43 am

                  Hi r-yeshe
                  Yes I’ll stick to greywarshark for now. I took a break and went into default mode to warbler when I came back. I still am concerned about the rawshark- thing and Hager so I will stick with the name for the present. One day when things get better? I’ll be a chirpy bird again. Might even go to fantail – they are very inspiring – quick and alert. I’d like to be the same.

              • Murray Rawshark …
                1 May 2015 at 5:57 pm

                Interesting point of view. Of course, there are those who say the back door faults were purposely left in Microsoft products. I think unions began with better intentions than those of Bill Gates.

                And the comments about drugs could apply to me too. It’s not a very supportive world for people who do get off the stuff, except for those around them who see what they’ve overcome and subsequently achieved. Anyone who beats smack and doesn’t join NAct deserves credit.

                • greywarshark …
                  1 May 2015 at 6:49 pm

                  MR
                  I do feel that there are unsung heroes out there who have made a very good life which seems commendable. But if one only knew the lower point they had started from, they have actually climbed an everest of their own.
                  Now and then I read of a muso or entertainer who has got over drugs and that’s amazing.

    • tracey 4.1
      1 May 2015 at 8:29 am

      Cos he has a 1 year fixed contract which requires him to travel????(sarc)

      I think it is normal for more than a year to pass before a not guilty pleader faces trial?

      • Rosie 4.1.1
        1 May 2015 at 9:01 am

        I have no idea, however I know of a case of attempted rape and sexual assault. The offending took place in October 2014. He was arrested two days after the complaint was laid and the Police charged him approximately two weeks later. It could have been less. The “alleged” offender will plead not guilty.

        My friend whose close relative was the victim has said they have been told the trial will most likely take place in October 2015 – a year on from the crime taking place.

        This person by the way no longer has name suppression but the media never reported it. I thought they might have given his former role in the community.

        In the case of The Prominent New Zealander, won’t it be over one year? I can’t recall the timeline but it feels like this case has been going on for quite some time, it feels like it is intentionally dragging along.

        • McFlock 4.1.1.1
          1 May 2015 at 3:02 pm

          investigation august last year, first appearance jan this year I think.

          I suspect we need more high court judges and staff in this country, if a year is not an unusual period to await trial.

          • Murray Rawshark 4.1.1.1.1
            1 May 2015 at 3:52 pm

            We could always stop the idiotic war on drugs. That would free up a lot of court time.

      • rawshark-yeshe 4.1.2
        1 May 2015 at 11:25 am

        Very bad system if there are young people involved .. absolute torture for them and favours the accused. Be very good to have a compassionate and faster process for under-age victims.

        • Tracey 4.1.2.1
          1 May 2015 at 12:10 pm

          Hopefully their evidence has already been recorded and they are being supported, leaving the realities of the trial more for the perpetrator than the victims (depending on ages of victims of course).

          • rawshark-yeshe 4.1.2.1.1
            1 May 2015 at 12:18 pm

            a decent man mighty plead guilty to save further harm … oh, that’s right ….. no possibility here.

            • Tracey 4.1.2.1.1.1
              1 May 2015 at 12:21 pm

              This person probably 100% believes that whatever they did was not wrong… no way he/she will plead guilty in those circumstances.

              Many folks who live their lives viewing their actions ONLY through their own eyes are genuinely oblivious to the consequences/impacts of their actions.

              • rawshark-yeshe …
                1 May 2015 at 12:26 pm

                fair comment Tracey .. it’s all perception after all.

                • Tracey …
                  1 May 2015 at 12:29 pm

                  I believe that anyone wanting to be an elected representative needs to be able to display and show evidence of empathy. How else can they adequately represent others?

                  • rawshark-yeshe …
                    1 May 2015 at 12:36 pm

                    So how can we measure that ? Some voters seem able to fooled a lot of the time …

                    • Tracey …
                      1 May 2015 at 12:41 pm

                      SIGH – I know…

                      I guess some just don’t think it is a necessary trait in the first place. For some reason many think having made alot of money in a niche career is all you need to lead a country…

                    • rawshark-yeshe …
                      1 May 2015 at 1:36 pm

                      sigh indeed ….. and btw, when I was on silence from here a few weeks back with Murray Rawshark, I read some of the pieces you posted about the Winebox and your representation of Paul White .. how amazing. Have been re-reading the three books by Wishart … what a catastrophic mess. And I do see ugly parallels today with Ben Rachinger … maybe one day you can talk some more about things you knew. I was astonished Wishart did not choose to interview you, or was it rather chose not to interview you ? If ever there is more you can say, I would be deeply interested. There is never a time I pass by that underpass pillar and don’t think about what the truth might have been — it has always haunted me. We suffer a very dirty and well-disguised underbelly.

              • Murray Rawshark …
                1 May 2015 at 3:56 pm

                I would guess that most child molesters think there’s nothing wrong with what they do. It would be hard to see how they’d do it otherwise. I know that many think of themselves as victims, seduced by the wiles of small children. One I came across thought he was doing 12 year olds a favour by grooming them to be “loved” later on. I did him a favour by preparing him for the bashings he would face in prison. Unfortunately the parents of the two girls chose to ignore what he was doing.

    • Stuart Munro 4.2
      1 May 2015 at 8:43 am

      They’ll be trying to position the ‘prominent’ trial midway between elections to minimise public response. The longer it’s delayed the more trouble it will cause in 2017…

      If the Key junta actually makes it to 2017 – it would only need a handful of Gnats to be run over, ingest a surfeit of lampreys, or spontaneously combust, and we’ll be rid of this odious assemblage of incompetent villains and vermin.

    • veutoviper 4.3
      1 May 2015 at 10:20 am

      I don’t think there is any ‘conspiracy’ here in terms of the timing of the trial date.

      Regrettably, the length of time for a criminal case to get to trial here in NZ is long, particularly a jury trial, and usually takes over a year.

      In this instance, while there have obviously been a number of District Court pre-trial hearings already, the case was only transferred from the District Court to the High Court a week or so ago. IIRC from working for some time in the justice sector, the time already taken in relation to these earlier DC hearings would not be taken into account in scheduling the HC trial.

      Here is some information from the MOJ website on the factors that may affect the timing of a trial.

      https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/from/statistics/annual-statistics/june-2011/high-court-waiting-times-1

      The links at the bottom are to old 2011 waiting times.

      Here are the latest High Court waiting times as at Dec 2014.

      https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/from/statistics/annual-statistics/latest-december-2014/high-court/high-court-criminal-trial-waiting-time-for-scheduled-hearing-by-courts-as-at-31-december-2014

      As you will see, average waiting times at Auckland High Court are over a year at 390 days, while median times are only slightly under at 341 days.

      The National total average and median times are 408/332.
      Gisborne is the quickest with 206/206.
      Palmerston North is the longest – average at 955 but median is 308.
      Whangerei is the second longest at 634/606.

      EDIT – and Jan Logie on this subject, from the side bar, is worth reading.
      https://blog.greens.org.nz/2015/05/01/justice-delayed-and-delayed-and-delayed/

      • weka 4.3.1
        1 May 2015 at 10:29 am

        thanks veuto, that’s what I was wondering, so good to have some information.

      • Bearded Git 4.3.2
        1 May 2015 at 11:25 am

        A trial in the middle of next year, and then an appeal may take this close to the election. The slower the better.

      • Tracey 4.3.4
        1 May 2015 at 12:08 pm

        Interestingly the guy who killed the WINZ workers in September was due to start his trial today but it was delayed. So that’s 7 months.

        I note Alex Swney, former head of Heart of the City had his sentencing delayed yesterday to a “future time” due to the Judge being ill.

      • Rosie 4.3.5
        1 May 2015 at 1:15 pm

        Thanks VV, helpful as ever 🙂

  5. Jeeves 5
    1 May 2015 at 7:51 am

    …was listening to some old music last night while on the treadmill….. couldn’t help but be struck by this old Pink Floyd jem:

    “Sheep”

    Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away
    Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air
    You better watch out
    There may be dogs about
    I’ve looked over Jordan and I have seen
    Things are not what they seem.

    What do you get for pretending the danger’s not real
    Meek and obedient you follow the leader
    Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel
    What a surprise!
    A look of terminal shock in your eyes
    Now things are really what they seem
    No, this is no bad dream.

  6. Pasupial 6
    1 May 2015 at 8:39 am

    Long-serving [meals on wheels driver] volunteer Dr Terry Hearn, of Dunedin, will quit if the board votes to privatise southern hospital kitchens at its meeting next Thursday.

    ”I am now certain that the assumption was made – whether casually or deliberately – that Compass could continue to rely on volunteer drivers and allow them to subsidise its profits.[“]…

    Meanwhile, HBL, the Government entity that developed the deal with Compass, has admitted the cost of the business case has blown out to $4.1 million…

    A protest against the plan will be held tomorrow, in the Octagon, starting at noon.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/340733/meals-wheels-volunteer-will-not-subsidise-compass

    • Tracey 6.1
      1 May 2015 at 9:01 am

      this is EXACTLY the point… a company is using unpaid labour to create a profit for itself. I am pretty sure in another century we had another word for it. For now it is just plain exploitation. I do hope they vote with their feet… The good folks of Dunedin, I feel sure, would start cooking in their own homes and delivering until Meals on Wheels returns.

      • Pasupial 6.1.1
        1 May 2015 at 9:13 am

        Yeh, there didn’t seem to be much I could add to Hearn’s comment. Hopefully the Dunedin Labour MPs will be at the protest tomorrow. It makes sense that King would be commenting as Health spokesperson, but the workers and volunteers also need support from their electorate MPs:

        As well as financial cost, it was important to remember the significant personal cost for the kitchen workers enduring years of uncertainty, Mrs King said.

        The Service and Food Workers’ Union has threatened possible legal action against the southern board, and Mrs King said that should prompt the board to reject the proposal, as it could not afford a legal fight. Some boards had rejected the proposal, and Southern should do the same.

        The problem with the SDHB is that they are likely to have an overseer appointed by the government to supervise cost-saving. It’s all starting to feel a bit like Environment Canterbury when inconvenient democracy threatened private profits.

    • weka 6.2
      1 May 2015 at 10:33 am

      “Meanwhile, HBL, the Government entity that developed the deal with Compass, has admitted the cost of the business case has blown out to $4.1 million…”

      What’s a business case? Surely that can’t be the work done to change the system?

      Go Terry Hearn!!

    • greywarshark 6.3
      1 May 2015 at 7:29 pm

      Wasn’t there another interesting bit to the Compass-HBL story? That even after a huge amount of dollar input from the government enabling the HBL to do their important health budget-dieting work, they still have charged all the hospitals they have worked in for their services? If so – Oh the sweet, sweet, non-fattening pleasurable taste of a government sinecure. Especially in the hospital context. A cure for as much sin as you want to indulge in paid by a generous and caring government!

  7. CC 7
    1 May 2015 at 8:52 am

    See: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503079&gal_cid=1503079&gallery_id=149812

    Auckland ratepayers are about to be screwed over by Willis Bond – the Wellington vulture company that makes hay on the privatization of prime publicly owned land.

  8. Clemgeopin 8
    1 May 2015 at 9:17 am

    * David Cameron makes gaffe in first breath over tax credits ‘raid’
    * Furious voter skewers David Cameron over foodbanks saying ‘people have died’

    Furious voter skewers David Cameron over foodbanks saying ‘people have died’

  9. Draco T Bastard 9
    1 May 2015 at 9:46 am

    Cowardly Firing of Australian State-Funded TV Journalist Highlights the West’s Real Religion

    “SBS supports our Anzacs” — and apparently bars any questioning or criticism of them. That mentality sounds like it came right from North Korea, which is to be expected when a media outlet is prohibited from saying anything that offends high government officials. Any society in which it’s a firing offense for journalists to criticize the military is a sickly and undemocratic one.

    This is the type of society that the West is becoming. One where the propaganda of the ‘elite’ can no longer be questioned. The old term for such is Lèse-majesté.

    • Murray Rawshark 9.1
      1 May 2015 at 4:08 pm

      This is one of the developments that really worries me – people losing their jobs for speaking out privately against the obscene madness of the militarisation of our national stories. It has really worrying fascistic undertones.

  10. joe90 10
    1 May 2015 at 9:52 am

    Aww, helicopter ride.

    What could go wrong with a bite or two?

    Everything, as it turned out.

    Not at first. For an hour, I felt nothing. I figured I’d order dinner from room service and return to my more mundane drugs of choice, chardonnay and mediocre-movies-on-demand.

    But then I felt a scary shudder go through my body and brain. I barely made it from the desk to the bed, where I lay curled up in a hallucinatory state for the next eight hours. I was thirsty but couldn’t move to get water. Or even turn off the lights. I was panting and paranoid, sure that when the room-service waiter knocked and I didn’t answer, he’d call the police and have me arrested for being unable to handle my candy.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/04/opinion/dowd-dont-harsh-our-mellow-dude.htm

  11. Ovid 11
    1 May 2015 at 10:02 am

    Happy May Day everyone. Great news as Maccas comes to its senses over zero hour contracts.

  12. rawshark-yeshe 12
    1 May 2015 at 10:39 am

    Look how much we have just sold again to overseas buyers !! Surely it’s time for a review and radical change to the OIO system.

    Oh, and look see what Mike Sabin’s new corporate role has achieved? Selling to Chinese one of the loveliest holiday camps in Northland.

    We are goneburgers at this rate. sigh …..

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11441306

    • Gosman 12.1
      1 May 2015 at 11:22 am

      Yes. Abolish it as it is a waste of money.

      • Murray Rawshark 12.1.1
        1 May 2015 at 4:30 pm

        I agree. Get rid of it and stop land sales to non-residents.

        • rawshark-yeshe 12.1.1.1
          1 May 2015 at 7:43 pm

          That would take care of it ! Not much chance tho the way this govt sells residence status to many who should not have it. .. always available if you have the millions in your bank account … and absurdly with no with need to prove you have it in the same account the next day ! Recipe for corruption isn ‘t it ?

        • weka 12.1.1.2
          1 May 2015 at 7:45 pm

          “Get rid of it and stop land sales to non-residents.”

          Do you mean people without residency status, or people that don’t live here?

          • Murray Rawshark 12.1.1.2.1
            1 May 2015 at 7:50 pm

            I mean people who don’t live in Aotearoa.

            • weka 12.1.1.2.1.1
              1 May 2015 at 8:37 pm

              How about NZ Citizens who live overseas? I think would have to be exempt.

              • Murray Rawshark …
                1 May 2015 at 9:02 pm

                Why? So they can be landlords? They don’t need the house to live in if they’re living overseas.

                • weka …
                  2 May 2015 at 9:19 am

                  No, but they might need it when they get back. For some people it’s not just a house, it’s a home.

                  And if they sell to someone who turns it into a rental, how is that any different than the person going overseass renting it out?

                  They might already be a landlord. If I was renting off them and they’re good landlords, I’d prefer that they didn’t have to sell when they go work overseas for a year, esp if they sell to someone who then ends the tenancy.

                  I can think of any number of scenarios where it makes sense to not force NZ citizens (and people with residency) to sell.

                  • felix …
                    2 May 2015 at 10:43 am

                    Yes and…

                    In most of the countries these NZ citizens might be living in, they don’t have the option of buying a house as well as their house in NZ

                    • weka …
                      2 May 2015 at 10:49 am

                      I’m also thinking about the impact on housing prices in NZ if every person that owns a property that goes overseas for a time has to sell, and then rebuy when they come back.

                  • Murray Rawshark …
                    2 May 2015 at 1:13 pm

                    I didn’t say anything about Kiwis having to sell their house when they leave. I have no idea where you got that idea from. Not being able to buy is not the same as being forced to sell.

    • greywarshark 12.2
      1 May 2015 at 7:48 pm

      Thanks for that rawsharke y. About the sale to overseas interests. Do you know who sold Whatuwhwhi? Who were the owners who sold the camp? I wondered if it was the Maori interests who had big debts after a business failure.

  13. greywarbler 13
    1 May 2015 at 10:42 am

    I didn’t realise how well embedded we were in the English speaking Quinad till I heard about the Five Eyes spying.

    Now while looking at wikipedia on passports I see –
    “the Five Nations Passport Group, an international forum for cooperation between the passport issuing authorities in Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States “.

    I thought it was three 6’s that were supposed to be the mark of a coming bad end. Five seems to be getting bad connotations also.

  14. adam 14
    1 May 2015 at 10:56 am

    Was listening to this – The Russel Norman questions

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/radionz/programmes/parliament/audio/201752350/question-time-for-29-april-2015

    Is it just me or, was there a rising level of contempt from the government benches for Mr Norman when ask questions from the public.

    • rawshark-yeshe 14.1
      1 May 2015 at 11:09 am

      The disdain has been there for a long time, imho.

      Also Carter’s disdain and vile shouting rudeness yesterday at Green MP Catherine Delahunty as she tried ( in vain) to have a document tabled in the house. Carter yelled and became so angry, he is just unsuitable for the role. He looks miserable always, until someone on the right tries to make ‘a funny’ of some kind, but he metes out his worst acerbic and furious misery on Greens, Winston and various Labour front benchers. He is an impatient and and acidic angry man.

      His divisive partisan behaviour shames the office and betrays us all.

      • adam 14.1.1
        1 May 2015 at 11:53 am

        I was waiting for the point of order on When he yelled at Catherine

        Point of order: When did the PM ‘s abusive style of bluster, become the norm for the speaker of the house, Mr Speaker.

        Of course the member would be ejected – but hey be worth it.

        • rawshark-yeshe 14.1.1.1
          1 May 2015 at 12:03 pm

          Metiria did try with her excellent point of order .. but Carter should apologise for the ‘unbecoming of the house’ manner in which he yelled at Catherine.

          Can you imagine this man as our Ambassador in London ? OMFG.

          • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1.1.1
            1 May 2015 at 12:11 pm

            Can you imagine this man as our Ambassador in London ?

            Would it be any worse than having JK as our PM?

            Actually, if you look around the media a bit (except the MSM in NZ) it’s obvious that conservatives around the world are losing the plot.

            • rawshark-yeshe 14.1.1.1.1.1
              1 May 2015 at 12:23 pm

              It’s not a competition for worse, worserer or worserest although it can surely look like it. Each of them is an unmitigated disaster for Aotearoa with Groser about to become yet another in Washington. ( Bet Helen can’t wait sarc.)

              • adam …
                1 May 2015 at 1:10 pm

                But it does seem to be a competition, rawshark-yeshe. And, Key now heads their international conservative organisation – May there name never pass my lips.

                I bet they are feeling chuffed about that.

            • Tracey 14.1.1.1.1.2
              1 May 2015 at 1:15 pm

              DTB

              I commented about this somewhere else this morning. IN Australia they swallowed the misogynistic anti-Gillard schpiel from CT but very quickly have realised their error, Same in UK, but here… 3 terms later…

              • adam …
                1 May 2015 at 1:32 pm

                These Tories, have become full blown with their women hating of late. it’s just Sick.

  15. Agora 15
    1 May 2015 at 11:19 am

    The *real* game of thrones in Saudi Arabia while Key was there ..
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/29/saudi-arabia-mohammed-bin-nayef-crown-prince

  16. greywarshark 16
    1 May 2015 at 11:28 am

    Radio nz had this – has everyone heard about it? Get the links here –
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/272520/invitation-to-our-discussion-forums

    Radionz
    We like a good chinwag at radionz.co.nz and now we want you to join the conversation too.
    Today we’re trialling a new forums feature – rnztalk. You will also find it at the foot of this piece and on today’s weekly political column, Power Play.
    We are starting small so we can see what you think. We won’t be adding forums to everything we publish but we will, depending what you say, start steadily increasing their use over time.

    Rnztalk uses a platform called Discourse – a 100 percent open source system – which, like us, wants to encourage a better level of discussion.

    This means things are a little bit different from your normal commenting systems. Comments are post-moderated, placing the onus on you to be mature, considered, caring and reasonable in what you write.

    My bold. It’s not a place for keyboard warriors to unleash hell and fury. We want people to feel safe and respected on our forums. Before you hit the publish button stop, pause and think. Play the issue never the person.
    Click here for some guidelines which should help with that process.

    Joining is easy – simply use your existing Facebook or Twitter account or sign up separately.
    And, let us know what you think. Thanks.

    • Tracey 16.1
      1 May 2015 at 12:12 pm

      Cool, another place for people to say “what they reckon”

    • weka 16.2
      1 May 2015 at 12:14 pm

      Interesting they are going for post-moderation. Good on them.

      • Tracey 16.2.1
        1 May 2015 at 1:17 pm

        As long as they are even handed in what they let through

        • weka 16.2.1.1
          1 May 2015 at 1:22 pm

          “what they let through”

          what they take out. They’re not moderating until after the comments have been published.

          • Tracey 16.2.1.1.1
            1 May 2015 at 1:24 pm

            okee dokee, sorry. you mean moderation after comment not moderation of posts?.

  18. Michael 18
    1 May 2015 at 12:46 pm

    Bernie Sanders, independent democratic socialist US Senator, has announced a run for President. On the Democratic ticket – he will be battling Clinton.

    https://berniesanders.com/issues/
    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/30/bernie-sanders-election-challenge-hillary-clinton

    He refuses all corporate donations. I think he can take on the billionaire class – or at least give them a good scare. He’s probably to the left of Elizabeth Warren.

    He wants to take on Wall Street and break up the banks, truly tax the wealthy, move America to a universal single-payer health system, make universities debt-free, vastly reduce poverty by expanding benefits, double the minimum wage, take on tax evasion by corporations and the rich, oppose US intervention in the middle east, oppose the TPP (and all corporate trade deals), empower unions, expand worker cooperatives, and take on corporate money in politics truly address climate change, etc.

    He was a founding member of the Progressive Caucus which is composed of the left/’progressive’ of the Democratic Party. And himself, who is an independent.

    He might not win the primary, but he will shake the establishment and confront Hillary Clinton on these issues. The progressive wing of the Party is growing in influence. (i.e. Bill Clinton would *not* get chosen as a nominee today), and she’ll need to make it clear that she’ll appease them. Although I would hope that he could win outright.

    • ianmac 18.1
      1 May 2015 at 1:23 pm

      Michael. Last night I watched the Russell Brand/Millibrand interview.
      The summary from Russell
      http://www.thepaepae.com/russell-brands-quieter-ed-milibrand-interview/35954/ at about 13:25 was so like your post from Bernie Sanders:
      “He wants to take on Wall Street and break up the banks, truly tax the wealthy, move America to a universal single-payer health system, make universities debt-free, vastly reduce poverty by expanding benefits, double the minimum wage, take on tax evasion by corporations and the rich, oppose US intervention in the middle east, oppose the TPP (and all corporate trade deals), empower unions, expand worker cooperatives, and take on corporate money in politics truly address climate change, etc.”
      And will we have a similar call from our MPs?

      Mind you, Russell reckons it is the power of the people who cause changes.

      • Tracey 18.1.1
        1 May 2015 at 1:25 pm

        It’s not politicians who made zero contracts go away for certain NZ workers… in fact they allowed them to surface in the first place.

      • Michael 18.1.2
        1 May 2015 at 2:47 pm

        Yes, well it would be the power of the people that would get Bernie elected. Bernie refuses all corporate donations – not a single cent comes from corporations. 60+% of his funding comes from small, individual donations and the remainder comes mostly from labour, environmental, and civil liberties groups.

        This is in contrast to the establishment US politicians who need corporate money to win. Hillary Clinton will raise nearly us$3 billion. The Koch Brothers, billionaire oil barons, are planning on spending nearly $1 billion of their own money to fix the election for the Republican Party.

        Bernie would need to be elected via a grassroots movement – first, to overcome Hillary who has the backing of moneyed interests, and then to win the election against a Republican candidate who will receive billions in corporate donations. It would take a mobilisation of ordinary people – a politician that represents people.

  19. Robert Glennie 19
    1 May 2015 at 12:55 pm

    How much longer before the police decide they need to act on Gloriavale? Last nights segments confirmed sexual, physical and emotional as well as possibly financial abuse.

    As yet I don’t think we have a Waco in the making, but given their disregard for the law when it comes to underage sex and their determination in isolating rebels, I wonder how they would react to the Police turning up with CYFS in force?

    • ianmac 19.1
      1 May 2015 at 1:09 pm

      The problem might be in obtaining evidence that would stand up in court.

      • weka 19.1.1
        1 May 2015 at 1:24 pm

        CYFS can still get involved though.

        Is Gloriavale that community on the West Coast that’s been there for decades, or is it a new one?

      • Nick 19.1.2
        1 May 2015 at 2:13 pm

        Talking of Court costs I would love to know the legal status of this, not to mention the ethics…
        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11437454
        In effect the “cult” are wanting a road to them closed, the local Council has agreed BUT the Council is likely to go to court to defnd their action against other parties. Here’s the dubious bit. The “cult” are going to pay the Councils court costs. In other words an interested party is paying the council to defend a decision against other interested parties. How bent is that?

    • ianmac 19.2
      1 May 2015 at 1:33 pm

      Must have heard you Robert.
      On the Herald: “A free phone line has been set up by police for people wanting to discuss experiences at the secretive Christian community Gloriavale.

      The line will be answered by Tasman District Police and has been established to manage the growing number of people wanting to discuss Gloriavale, police said.”
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11441715

      • Nick 19.2.1
        1 May 2015 at 2:02 pm

        One allegation on the TV3 program which wold be easy to investigate is that somebody at Gloriavale received a benefit from WINZ without the knowledge of the person they were claiming for. The person the benefit was claimed for only found out when thy were sent a demand for overpayment. That is fraud, theft, using somebodies identity for criminal purposes…you name it.

    • northshoreguynz 19.3
      1 May 2015 at 1:43 pm

      Wonder how much they donate to the National Party?

  20. adam 20
    1 May 2015 at 1:27 pm

    It’s one of those times, when the Christian left and right need to stop fighting. And go look at this community, and see how far off the path it really is. I think many will be shocked at how far off they are.

    Personally I’m convinced it’s christian in name only – as some of the utterance of Neville Cooper make him a cult figure not a christian. I find it abhorrent he says his group is based on christianity, to somehow justify that he is not a cult. Indeed the whole Cooperite Community is a cult – just look at this video.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/campbelllive/gloriavale-more-revelations-from-ex-members-2015042219#axzz3YqS95NQb

    This is by definition cultish behaviour.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11436904

    Time for the Bishops and the other church leaders to step up and challenge this group.

    • Murray Rawshark 20.1
      1 May 2015 at 4:45 pm

      I hope you don’t mean Bishop Tamaki 🙂

      • adam 20.1.1
        1 May 2015 at 9:42 pm

        OH my goodness no.

        That man is in all probability leading a cult as well. He has crossed the line a few times.

        Making himself a bishop, was just odd.

  21. veutoviper 21
    1 May 2015 at 4:44 pm

    Here is a Friday afternoon giggle – time for a wine.

    English on being Acting Prime Minister.

    https://twitter.com/felixmarwick/status/593944226301259776

    https://twitter.com/VernonSmall/status/593944631185805312

  22. Murray Rawshark 22
    1 May 2015 at 4:59 pm

    When moderators are making personal attacks on commenters, I feel something has gone very wrong. I have no idea what we can do about it.

    • weka 22.1
      1 May 2015 at 6:13 pm

      Can I make a couple of suggestions? When addressing commenters who also are at times moderators, think of them as commenters unless they explicitly say they are moderating. I took everything trp said upthread to be him as a commenter, not an author (which means he can be as rude/obnoxious as everyone else, including phil).

      The other thing is to stick to the issue and if necessary the behaviour. Your comment comparing trp to Simon Bridges strikes me as rude/abusive as anything trp said to phil. We don’t have to get personal like that (I was on the verge of calling trp out for the druggie put downs), but can instead either focus on the issue (unions), or the behaviour (keep it neutral).

      In the end I think we have to take our cues from the authors, and that is going to vary from author to author hugely. I have no problem calling trp out on things, but there is going to be a limit and the authors are the ones that get to say where that limit is for them. I respect that because they are the ones that do the hard yards here, and without them I/we wouldn’t have a place like this to hang out in.

      Sorry, that probably doesn’t help a lot, but I sense your frustration and hope there is a way that being here on ts can be ok for you. Lots of people value your input, myself included.

      • b waghorn 22.1.1
        1 May 2015 at 6:28 pm

        ” When addressing commenters who also are at times moderators, think of them as commenters unless they explicitly say they are moderating. I took everything trp said upthread to be him as a commenter, not an author ”

        That sounds a bit like something despicable key would say about which hat he was wearing at the time. I think we should expect a higher standard from those with power, even if it is only the power to ban a commenter.

        • weka 22.1.1.1
          1 May 2015 at 6:38 pm

          Except in this instance there are two distinct hats. There is a boundary between trp the author/moderator and trp the commenter. I’m kind of surprised that this isn’t obvious, or is a problem for some people. It’s why I’ve suggested upthread that a policy of moderation only happening in bold would make things clearer (the boundary gets blurred when moderators moderate in a comment).

          For me personally, when trp is commenting in Open Mike or on a post he didn’t write, he doesn’t have any more power over me than anyone else. Ditto the other day when I was arguing with CV and Red on a post they didn’t write. That they are also sometimes authors was irrelevant and we just argued quite vehemently about the politics. Sometimes it was quite heated and rude. That’s the kaupapa of the place (robust debate).

          I really don’t get the issue about power here. It’s not like trp is going to hold it against you if you argue with him (although I think he will eventually reach a limit were he is being harassed as an author/moderator). If anyone else had been relating with phil like he did today, they would have been told off as well by other commenters. What’s the problem?

          (btw, JK used the hats thing as a way of avoiding responsibility. I’d like to see how you think I’ve just done that, or trp).

          edit, in the end I think it comes down to people not being comfortable with the power imbalance, and I’m kind of curious why it’s coming up so much in the past few months. It’s not like this is new, afaik it’s always been like this on ts.

          • b waghorn 22.1.1.1.1
            1 May 2015 at 7:10 pm

            You’re missing my point, trp is further up the food chain on the standard than most of us so should behave in a manner fitting the position of moderator.
            Most here IMO come here in the hope that in some small way it might make a difference so having it degenerate into pointless and pointed abuse will drive people away.

            • weka 22.1.1.1.1.1
              1 May 2015 at 7:33 pm

              trp isn’t further up the food chain in the way you imply, and people might want to take a step back and consider why they see him that way. His behaviour today is entirely consistent with the rules and culture of the place. Have a go at his behaviour by all means, but there’s not need to have a go at him more because he is sometimes also an author with moderating responsibilities. He wasn’t in that role today and there is no onus on him to behave any better than you or me or phil or Murray etc. as long as he’s relating within the general rules and kaupapa.

    • veutoviper 22.2
      1 May 2015 at 6:14 pm

      I understand and empathize with your comments, MR. I am not about to stir up a hornets’ nest in returning to past events, but I watched from the sidelines and said nothing – not through cowardice but through anger. If I had said my piece, I would not be here now. I totally respect Lprent’s right to moderate as he sees fit; certain others, not so. Time will tell; but I am looking for alternatives.

      • weka 22.2.1
        1 May 2015 at 7:35 pm

        veuto, would you mind saying why you are ok with Lynn moderating as he sees fit but not some others?

        • veutoviper 22.2.1.1
          1 May 2015 at 8:21 pm

          weka. I am happy to do so, but not tonight. Its been a heavy week, and its Friday night so I am going to enjoy a few wines with friends in town for the weekend. Also, I want my response to be a considered one, not a reaction. I don;t always agree with you, but I respect you so want to respond, so it may take a day or so.

    • The Murphey 22.3
      2 May 2015 at 12:06 pm

      Using threats of banning to extort ‘evidence’ then when provided with ‘evidence’ still issue a ban…

      Any level of responsibility is too much for certain personality types which is why the sort of behaviour looks set to continue

      The answer to the question Murray is remove the responsibility of moderation because it was too much to expect it would not go the way it has

      • Murray Rawshark 22.3.1
        2 May 2015 at 1:22 pm

        Moderation can’t be removed completely. For example, think of the case where someone might mention Sabin in a legally dubious context. That needs moderating or TS could end up being prosecuted.

        • The Murphey 22.3.1.1
          2 May 2015 at 1:38 pm

          Hi Murray yes I agree but was not referring to there being no moderation

          My response was in reference to the personal abuse you mentioned as it is my observation there has shown to be a lack of suitability for moderator status in recent appointments

          [Drop it. I believe points of concern, various unhappinesses etc, have been proffered in a number of comments. But self martydom offenses includes “including telling us how to run our site or…” ]- Bill

      • One Anonymous Bloke 22.3.2
        2 May 2015 at 1:49 pm

        Your false narratives are not “evidence”. That would be a link or two, which you didn’t supply.

  23. Penny Bright 23
    1 May 2015 at 5:19 pm

    FYI
    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    1 May 2015

    “Privatisation of three Auckland suburbs through the transferal of 2,800 State houses.”

    “The Housing Lobby believe the messages being portrayed over Bill English and Nick Smith’s announcement on the transferal of 2,800 State houses from Housing NZ to the Tamaki Redevelopment Company (TRC), is both misleading and untrue,” says Housing Lobby Spokesperson Sue Henry.

    http://www.tamakitrc.co.nz/

    “In letters delivered by Housing NZ to every tenants’ household on Thursday
    29 April 2015, it states ‘nothing will change for tenants’.”

    “The situation will drastically change for tenants, if the management and ownership of 2,800 State houses are transferred to a wholly commercial enterprise.”

    “Two main changes will be that the Tamaki Redevelopment Company will be able to sell or borrow against a freehold asset already paid for and owned by the public.”

    “The impression tenants have is that the Tamaki Redevelopment Company can offer transfers and allocations.”

    “It needs to be made clear that it is the Ministry of Social Development that now has this responsibility.”

    http://www.housing.msd.govt.nz/forms/factsheets/social-housing-changes.html

    “One question that needs to be asked is if the Tamaki Redevelopment Company have no experience with tenants why are they there?

    Is their real role to assist with the transferal of this State Housing asset directly into the hands of private property development companies?

    The other question – is there any truth in the allegation that the Tamaki Redevelopment Company has already applied to Auckland Council to reconfigure massive tracts of reserve lands, parks, and school grounds for intensified housing?”

    “What exactly was discussed under ‘CONFIDENTIAL’ session at the Auckland Council Governing Body meeting held behind closed doors with the public excluded, on Thursday 30 April 2015?

    http://infocouncil.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/Open/2015/04/GB_20150430_AGN_5790_AT.PDF (Pg 93)

    “C1 Additional New Special Housing Area Request – April 2015 Auckland Development Committee Recommendation ”

    “What didn’t they want the public to know?”

    “State houses in Tamaki should remain under Housing NZ stewardship – end of story.”

    Sue Henry

    Spokesperson
    Housing Lobby

    …………………..

  24. weka 24
    1 May 2015 at 6:21 pm

    Any chance people could lessen the embedding of video in comments? The space takes up half my laptop screen, so doubles the amount of scrolling. The Roger Waters one today is also freezing my iphone screen. I don’t mind the odd embed, but there seems to have been a spate of them in the past few days.

    • te reo putake 24.1
      1 May 2015 at 9:13 pm

      Not sure how to avoid embedding them, weka. I put a link in to a vid the other day and the full clip turned up, much to my surprise. Might be something to do with the wordpress upgrade the other day that also changed the emojis.

  25. les 25
    1 May 2015 at 7:57 pm

    excuse me for being behind the times but is there anything Fletcher says here that has been proven correct!http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=139509

    • ianmac 25.1
      1 May 2015 at 8:13 pm

      Do you mean proven incorrect les? Hard to believe that no one here or in 5 Eyes is collecting data of any sort on NZers.

      • ianmac 25.1.1
        1 May 2015 at 8:18 pm

        Of course is it possible that Fletcher resigned because the “rules” were in fact being broken? Just wondering.

        • Anne 25.1.1.1
          1 May 2015 at 8:52 pm

          It has been mooted here in the recent past that the revelation the GCSB have been spying on South Pacific neighbours and other friendly nations – including China – for the NSA may have had a bearing on his decision to resign well before his term was up.

  26. joe90 26
    1 May 2015 at 8:40 pm

    On it goes.

    Sources said the medical examiner found Gray’s catastrophic injury was caused when he slammed into the back of the police transport van, apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van.

    http://www.wjla.com/articles/2015/04/breaking-news-no-evidence-found-that-freddie-gray-s-death-was-result-of-police-who-arrested-him-prob.html

    • marty mars 26.1
      1 May 2015 at 10:10 pm

      If the police don’t change their attitude to people of colour especially men then the whole place is going to burn. I cannot accept these men getting shot and killed by police just because of the colour of their skin. Change now police because people are not taking this shit and they never will again.

    • Bill 26.2
      1 May 2015 at 10:45 pm

      “a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van” (my emphasis added)

      Reminds me of the time my hands were cuffed behind my back in the back of a police van. When they entered the cop shop yard they jumped on the brakes…real hard. Luckily I’d sidled up to the back of the cab and merely got pressed to the metal…otherwise I’d have gone flying with no way to put my hands out in order to lessen any impact.

      Hmm….so maybe Gray’s death was a result of ‘standard practice and procedure’?

      • joe90 26.2.1
        1 May 2015 at 11:07 pm

        Waikeria to the mount in the back of a Kingswood maria is something I’d rather forget. Never forget the soup and toast* (and pisspot) when I arrived though.

        (The late great Lou Sherwin had the kitchen screw by the shorts*.)