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Open mike 02/03/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 2nd, 2021 - 102 comments
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102 comments on “Open mike 02/03/2021 ”

  1. Jester 1

    If you have had a covid test and are waiting on the result, surely you do not go out to the gym or the shops etc! How simpler can the message be?

    Covid-19: Young people to Government – 'your message is too old, too stale and way too long' | Stuff.co.nz

    • Patricia Bremner 1.1

      Apparently it was the walk by adults which was the trigger. This journalist is being selective with his facts to support his political narrative.

    • shanreagh 1.2

      I for one am a bit tired of 'feelings' being ascribed to the rule breakers from a middle class background…….Dr Bloomfield has said several times that he 'imagines', or words to that effect, that those who did not self isolate would be feeling remorseful.

      'When asked about Case M – the 21-year old-MIT student who visited several locations while symptomatic – Dr Bloomfield said: "I imagine he is extremely remorseful".'


      I have advocated 'someone' getting alongside the rule breakers to talk them through what happened and more importantly to find out their views on what can be done to prevent future breaches. Unless Dr Bloomfield knows, from personal conversation or through reading feedback from a health professional who has had a personal conversation that they are remorseful, he should refrain from commenting. The actions in breaking self isolation speak louder than ascribed feelings, right from the mothers' meeting to the tripping round by Case M.

      The question is why, seemingly, did things like self isolation not matter in these particular families? Until we know we cannot do anything much to improve things.

      In the meantime we cannot go round ascribing to others how they may be feeling.

      On a personal level I am always willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt but ascribing feelings that are not borne out by actions is pushing hard against our willingness and to me is a bit of fakery.

    • woodart 1.3

      did anybody else notice the irony of an old, stale, out of date, media telling us this message. in the battle to remain relevant, our media need to constantly keep reminding themselves, that, they need to be more pro-active when it comes to reaching a younger audience. however, after a year of covid, there is NO excuse for any ignorance over staying home when sick, and as for going to the gym after a covid test, words fail me as to the stupidity of some. Do gyms have the stay home if sick message on their walls? it comes down to personal responsibility, and thats why cretins like seymour are dancing on the head of a pin, while going on about extra gov bed checks, and more gov intervention.. the associates of this particular family that has caused so much harm, must be aware of the family, and are probably giving them the cold shoulder.(?)

      • shanreagh 1.3.1

        the associates of this particular family that has caused so much harm, must be aware of the family, and are probably giving them the cold shoulder.(?)

        I don't think we can be sure of this at all and you are right to question it. Messages are being missed or people don't care, why? We need to find out from the rule breakers themselves – are they being influenced to disobey by their churches, because they do not know how to access support, because the messages are from 'da man' or 'old whitey' and should be automatically disregarded? Or……, or……..

    • aom 1.4

      How about the simple message that the cost of a lockdown, if caused by you will be $250million. How soon would you be able to pay off the debt?

  2. Foreign Waka 2

    There are as many excuses as anybody can master, how on earth could people by now not know what it means to be infected? I mean this was just the major news over a year now.

    If I understand this correctly, the spreaders were in Managed Isolation. I sure as hell hope they have paid their bill. And to say that they didn't understand …pleeeeeese pull another one.

    • Treetop 2.1

      When it comes to being infected it seems to be about the contact classifications falling into risk categories.

      Low risk at casual contact level does not mean no risk.

    • Incognito 2.2

      Your comment is valid and I agree with it. However, when you say they [“the spreaders”, plural] “were” in MIQ, it has a completely different meaning compared to the correct and accurate fact that they [Case M, singular, neutral] “had been” in/through MIQ.

      • woodart 2.2.1

        no, it means that they KNOW what to do, and what NOT to do. running around, splitting hairs to make a point is a sideshow.

        • Incognito


          Yes, we know and I agreed. How many times do you want it repeated here and agreed upon? Do you want to be a parrot in an echo chamber?

          running around, splitting hairs to make a point is a sideshow.


          After all that running around I had to have a cup of tea and a lie down but I’m good now, thanks.

          What was the “point” I was making, according to you?

  3. Ad 3

    It was particularly amusing on RNZ this morning to hear Patrick Strange the Chair of Ports of Auckland complaining that the government has no post-Covid strategy.

    Lat year his company rolled out one of the largest failed strategies we've seen in recent NZ commercial life, and its commercial damage is still being felt across New Zealand.

    He should shut up.

    • Sanctuary 3.1

      Hah! I thought the same thing. Pompous ass.

    • dv 3.2

      Did he say when post covid starts?

    • AB 3.3

      One of the few good things about the pandemic is how the business establishment (the talking heads, not the people actually doing the work) have discredited themselves. Rather than the thrusting, agile, innovative, brilliant, independent wealth-creators of popular myth, they look and sound like third-rate, intellectually and morally vacuous scroungers looking for an impossible 'certainty'. Once we are out of the pandemic, it will be important to sustain our disdain for them, and not let them creep back into positions of undue influence

      • Ad 3.3.1

        It's a bad double moment.

        The general populace can but be beholden to government in this crisis, because they are both regulated to do so by public health edict and because they are utterly subsidised. So we allow state dependence for the general population.

        But we don't allow that same state dependence for business.

        And yet business and the population are as dependent on the state as the other.

        We haven't had a state as interventionist as this since 1934. People are beginning to notice that the Ardern government doesn't know what to do with that once the crisis lessens back to level 1 in a few days.

        The reasonable question is: is this really all a Team Of Five Million can do together?

    • Incognito 3.4

      He should shut up.

      So, you don’t like what he’s saying and/or him personally?

      Work your way down the list and knock yourself out.


  4. Treetop 4

    At what point should a family bubble begin?

    Casual contact, casual plus contact, close contact or close plus contact?

    Had a family bubble happened at the casual plus contact level a positive case would be more likely to have been contained.

    The settings for the contact classifications, the testing and isolation need to be relooked at especially when it comes to not having a family bubble at a casual plus contact stage.

    I do believe people when they say my family member is a casual plus contact and I was told not to isolate.

  5. Sanctuary 5

    I am sick and tired of the fake headlines and moaning in the media and it's stuffed shirt talking heads. That piece in Stuff basically just allows their ghastly white guilt to be assuaged by letting the Maori party grandstand on their identity politics of victimhood and quotes exact one teenager – a Maori kid in Hawera – who doesn't even say what the headline claims. So who is saying what the headline claims, beyond politcially partisan people with a whole shedload of resentment axes to grind?

    Luke Malpass has another "analysis" piece today in Stuff which isn't worth shit. He is a neoliberal horse race analyst who is based in Wellington. He knows fuck all about Auckland and even less than that about South Auckland. He his literally reflecting the opinion of his typewriter and some sort of received wisdom in the press gallery. I get sick and tired of the pompous pronouncements of blowhard journalists masquerading as analysis.

    I get it that the media thrive on conflict and rarking people up for conflict. Like everyone else I saw how the sausage gets made with their pathetic gotcha lines of questioning last year, and it made me want to puke. Dogged stupidity is still stupidity. They've learnt nothing because they are arrogant sons of bitches who hold the public in distain. They desperately want to want to get back to playing court banter politics as imagined viziers to the public. I just don't want anymore of their bullshit. I got sick of it last year and nothing has changed.

    • Incognito 5.1

      So, you’re blowing your lid because of some headline somewhere in Stuff? Wow!

      Have a lie down and a cup of tea.

      As for the other unlinked piece in Stuff by Malpass, you flipped your lid again but nobody has a clue what the piece is/was about nor on what grounds you disagree with Mr Malpass other than he has the ‘wrong’ bumper sticker.

      Have a lie down and a cup of tea.

      • Anne 5.1.1

        Sanctuary has what some might interpret as an inflammatory style of writing, but the basis of his complaint is correct. I, too am getting sick and tired of reading or listening to bullshit from tabloid journos who misquote, misjudge, misinterpret and generally screw up facts simply because they can… and get away with it under the guise of a supposed nuanced analysis.

        I started to read one of HDPA's diatribes the other day and it was so full of conspiratorial nonsense I gave up in disgust. But its not just her… there's an industry of knee-jerk journalism growing up around the pandemic responses in particular. By all means be critical if there are grounds for it, but going troppo at every twist and turn is not only annoying… it creates more confusion.

        Yes, there is some excellent and accurate journalism around but unfortunately they are not the ones who get the most publicity. It's the shock jocks and its time they were reined in.

        • arkie

          A note on newspapers/news sites: Those who write the article do not write the headline. Headlines, subheads and captions are all written by subeditors not the journalists. This is why they can be sensationalistic/inaccurate.

          • Anne

            Yes that is true, but its the substance I'm talking about not the headlines.

            Oh and btw Incognito, I’ve already had three cups of tea in the last hour. 😉

          • rod

            So we can take then that most subeditors are fully paid up members of the National Party then. Just a thought.

    • woodart 5.2

      +100 sanctuary

    • Ad 5.3

      On average we write better posts than they do.

      We could easily just replace the entire sports section of TV news with Social Impact news that's a whole bunch more penetrating than 7 Sharp.

      In fact a daily scorecard of most popular non-MSM posts would be more useful than sports team scores.

      • Sanctuary 5.3.1

        What gets me is the amount of unsubstantiated reckons that pass as news – RNZ did a terrible job this morning with some bozo reporter perched above a South Auckland motorway interchange which he has probably never visited at that time of day before in his life saying there was "more traffic" on the road – and therefore implying widespread ignoring of level three restrictions, which then fed a preconceived attack line on the minister who was interviewed next and was supposed to rebut unsubstantiated nonsense.

        Where I live the traffic was way down to almost level 4 amounts on St. Lukes road at times today – I could just as easily get on air and spout a bullshit reckon based on my unscientific, localised anecdotal observations and marvel at how strong Aucklanders are. Now, if that RNZ Bozo had traffic data or some facts to back up his view that people are disobeying the lockdown then please, please tell us. This the media has decided the narrative crap is downright fake news.

      • gsays 5.3.2

        Y'all forget, the purpose of the 'news hour and a half' is to sell advertising.

        Nothing more, nothing less.

  6. Ad 6

    Is anyone yet prepared to admit that we are far more efficient in meetings on Teams at home than we are at work in offices?

    • Incognito 6.1

      Absolutely not!

    • Enough is Enough 6.2

      No way.

      We have daily a 9am meeting for everyone in the team to briefly say what they are doing that day. In the office it takes 10 minutes to work around the team.

      On Teams it takes twice as long, as you have to remind most people that they are on mute, someone drops out with a bad connection at home, or people talk over each other so you can hear anyone.

      The office wins everytime for me.

    • Craig H 6.3

      Depends on what the meeting is for, but mostly yes as long as the attendees can observe Teams etiquette.

  7. Adrian Thornton 7

    Unbiased and fair reporting from BBC, Reuters? Looking into these leaks (which unsurprisingly are receiving NO coverage from western MSM whatsoever ) it becomes apparent that both of those news organizations are toughly compromised and cannot be trusted with any news or reporting on Russia..which of course makes everything else they report suspect, as this has obviously put a big question mark around their journalistic integrity generally.

    Both BBC and Reuters along with Bellingcat were actually bidding for lucrative contracts with the British UK FCO (Foreign and Commonwealth Office) to conduct covert programs of disinformation and also train Russian journalists in the art of spreading discontent inside Russia, the leaked documents reveal.

    Interesting how after five years of investigation by the most well-funded investigators in the world come up with so little proof that Russia was involved in a large scale programme to undermine the US elections in 2016 that MSM won’t even allow a counter narrative EVER for fear of having their flimsy allegations fall apart live on air…yet here we are, presented with actual proof of that very thing happening against another country…wonder if there will be a flood of media outrage that two of their own have been proved to be so shamefully compromised?

    Leaked Docs Reveal UK Funded Reuters, BBC, Bellingcat For Covert Regime Change In Russia To Topple Putin

    Reuters, BBC participated in UK FCO's project to weaken Russia: report

    Reuters, BBC, and Bellingcat participated in covert UK Foreign Office-funded programs to “weaken Russia,” leaked docs reveal

  8. francesca 8

    Someone's done a Bellingcat type open source on Navalny

    Turns out he was holidaying in Switzerland , working on the US funded Putin's Palace in the Black Forest , and according to a German report, holidaying in the Canary Islands .

    All this while "recovering " or "in a coma"and thus unable to present in Russia in accordance with his suspended sentence

    He just couldn't resist posting those Instagram photos


    • Stuart Munro 8.1

      done a Bellingcat

      You really have swallowed the RT line without chewing haven't you.

      • Nic the NZer 8.1.1

        So what is it Bellingcat does, if its not putting these kinds of reports together and releasing them, then?

        • Stuart Munro

          Bellingcat is open source, unlike the RT efforts, you can check yourself whether what they produce is real. You can even collect data for them.

          RT has a massive hatefest on for Bellingcat after they proved Russia shot down Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 over the Ukraine, even discovering the Russian unit and operators responsible.

          Russian journalism has had to contend with being obliged to print outright fabrications since the revolution. Under Putin the practice has been revived, and with the advent of the internet, extended.

          You can find some explanation here: Active Measures — inside the history of disinformation | Financial Times (ft.com) Of course, circulating and repeating these carefully crafted pieces of disinformation is a public disservice on a par with repeating the broadcasts of Tokyo Rose or Lord Hawhaw.

          • Nic the NZer

            By gum your absolutely right, RT doesn't do anything like that.

          • Brigid

            "Bellingcat is open source"

            "circulating and repeating these carefully crafted pieces of disinformation is a public disservice on a par with repeating the broadcasts of Tokyo Rose or Lord Hawhaw"


            • Stuart Munro

              Poor child – you're too broken to fix anything.

              • Adrian Thornton

                You guys really have no problem getting into bed with all the enemies of the Left and their organizations to pursue your cold war Russian narrative… the FBI, the CIA, the most despicable US war hawks, war criminals ….and keep in mind I am not and have never defended Putin or his govt, no, I am just questioning the motives and truths that lay behind what is quite obviously a western elite power play against one particular segment of the Russian power structure over another (the 'other' it seems is more open to western participation in Russia)…something that maybe you guys might want to think about doing sometime.

                The Bellingcat research collective: War propaganda masquerading as “citizen journalism”

                "The Bellingcat “research collective” is a web site established in July 2014 by Eliot Higgins. Originally from Leicester in the UK, Higgins is, as of February, a senior fellow in the Atlantic Council’s Digital Forensic Research Lab and Future Europe Initiative."


                Atlantic Council

                The Ukrainian oligarch run Burisma Holdings donated $100,000 per year for three years to the Atlantic Council starting in 2016. The full list of financial sponsors includes many military, financial, and corporate concerns. The leading donors in 2018 were Facebook and the British government.


                Think Tank Watch


                • mauī

                  Yes, that would be the Belling-shat that appears to weigh in on all sorts of highly contentious, highly political, geopolitical events for the public good?? Can anyone say Syria chemical attack?

                  I guess they have no shame in using any source they can to prove Russia is bad…


                • Stuart Munro

                  You really have bought the whole bill of goods, haven't you?

                  Bellingcat are a perfectly ordinary and truthful, organisation. As such they are an existential threat to chronic liars and disinformation peddlers like the Putin kleptocracy.

                  People less susceptible to fake news, like the air accident inspectors that investigated MH17, found that Bellingcat had been entirely truthful. The same could not be said of Russian sources, who went so far as to produce and present fake video of an attacking Ukrainian fighter as their official explanation. As the investigator noted, the wreckage of an airliner shot down by a fighter would be full of bullet holes, which the wreckage lacked.

                  I wonder at your motivations, frankly, for constantly trying to make Putin's lies the leading narrative.

    • Sabine 8.2

      well its all good tho, he is off to the work camp to atone for his sins.

      • francesca 8.2.1

        Thats what you think Sabine

        Pootsie has already killed him via personally injecting novichok into his toothpaste , or was it the elastic of his underpants , or was it the airport cup of tea, or hang on , it was the evening cocktail, Navalny said it did taste funny, no, thats right ,it was the water bottle

        There's been a big coverup, and RT is just pretending he's been sent to a penal colony

  9. McFlock 9

    Couple of items I found interesting on Stuff:

    NZ cops have a bullying problem to the degree that even senior officers are afraid to speak up. Including the old faithful of officers not providing backup when requested. Be part of the "blue wall" or you're on your own out there is the lesson for anyone who doesn't like the police culture.

    I'll be interested to see if anything changes.

    Also, China is refusing to let the 737-max become operational in its airspace again. Such things are often diplomatic petulance – mate of mine who works logistics has stories about the US turning away produce imports on the basis of stickers being slightly out of alignment for "safety" grounds (read "import protections in a supposedly low-protection relationship") – but in this case, toss a coin. It might be that the problems have been fixed and the plane is good to go, like the "Comet" was after the fatigue problem was sorted. But equally, the software fix for the 737-max is a bodge to fix the bodge to fix the original fundamental design problem.

    • joe90 9.1

      Also, China is refusing to let the 737-max become operational in its airspace again. Such things are often diplomatic petulance

      Or China recognises the perils of bean counters running the engineering.

      The Long-Forgotten Flight That Sent Boeing Off Course

      A company once driven by engineers became driven by finance.


      The isolation was deliberate. “When the headquarters is located in proximity to a principal business—as ours was in Seattle—the corporate center is inevitably drawn into day-to-day business operations,” Condit explained at the time. And that statement, more than anything, captures a cardinal truth about the aerospace giant. The present 737 Max disaster can be traced back two decades—to the moment Boeing’s leadership decided to divorce itself from the firm’s own culture.

      For about 80 years, Boeing basically functioned as an association of engineers. Its executives held patents, designed wings, spoke the language of engineering and safety as a mother tongue. Finance wasn’t a primary language. Even Boeing’s bean counters didn’t act the part. As late as the mid-’90s, the company’s chief financial officer had minimal contact with Wall Street and answered colleagues’ requests for basic financial data with a curt “Tell them not to worry.”

      https://archive.li/8ks2w (The Atlantic)

    • Chris 9.2

      It's no wonder they're called pigs because that's what they've been for decades.

      We need good people in the police, and the only way that can happen is to have extremely tight recruitment rules. Anyone with even a sniff of a jock mentality are told no. Only the truly wholesome should be let in.

  10. joe90 10

    Etna's have a moment.

  11. Ad 11

    Joe Biden goes strong for unions, and against Amazon.

    It's pretty weird to realise that in no alternative universe can I imagine either our Prime Minister or Minister of Finance coming out so explicitly about the necessity of union membership and fighting against corporations as Biden does here.

    • Adrian Thornton 11.1

      Or seen from another perspective….

      Biden Issues LUKEWARM Support For Amazon Union Workers


      • Ad 11.1.1

        All mainstream media, and the AFL-CIO, and all the business journals fully get what Biden just did. In reality that collected perspective is more valid than what you posted.

        You'll probably be able to point to another President that has explicitly supported the right of workers to unionise. You have to go a fair way back.

        In the US political context this is the left's equivalent of Trump telling the racists to "stand back and stand by".

        • arkie

          You'll probably be able to point to another President that has explicitly supported the right of workers to unionise. You have to go a fair way back.


          Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 1934

          We have made great strides toward the objectives of the National Industrial Recovery Act, for not only have several millions of our unemployed been restored to work, but industry is organizing itself with a greater understanding that reasonable profits can be earned while at the same time protection can be assured to guarantee to labor adequate pay and proper conditions of work. Child labor is abolished. Uniform standards of hours and wages apply today to 95 percent of industrial employment within the field of the National Industrial Recovery Act. We seek the definite end of preventing combinations in furtherance of monopoly and in restraint of trade, while at the same time we seek to prevent ruinous rivalries within industrial groups which in many cases resemble the gang wars of the underworld and in which the real victim in every case is the public itself.

          Under the authority of this Congress, we have brought the component parts of each industry together around a common table, just as we have brought problems affecting labor to a common meeting ground. Though the machinery, hurriedly devised, may need readjustment from time to time, nevertheless I think you will agree with me that we have created a permanent feature of our modernized industrial structure and that it will continue under the supervision but not the arbitrary dictation of Government itself.

        • Tiger Mountain

          Joe Biden’s comments were more than I expected when taken in context of Presidents that were either openly anti union (ex union member Reagan), or pretty much silent on US workers organising i.e. most of the rest that I can recall, there was an approving speech on Union membership one time from DW. Eisenhower also.

          But then, there are unions, and there are bent unions in the USA. So it pays not to generalise too much. The AFL-CIO has a mixed record too. But a member led unionised site within Amazon would be a mighty advance for workers everywhere regardless of all that. Logistics workers serving the online economy in supposedly liberal Europe get a hard time too, and have to battle for basic rights like breaks these days.

          Amazon workers will be voting till the end of March and need 6000 YES votes. They had to fight and appeal even to be able to use postal voting too!–in the middle of a pandemic. The company sent out letters advising each employee to vote NO and do it now! A UPS mail box had mysteriously appeared on site at the Bessemer Alabama giant warehouse.

          So yes, Biden’s remarks were not red hot, but they will be clearly understood by other employers too, and might just help tip the balance and start an Amazon wide union drive.

        • Siobhan

          Yeah, Bidens all about the workers and their struggles…seriously though…the pro union headlines are a great way to distract from what is actually happening to workers in America ..and unfortunately some of the Unions are more interested in being self serving than helping the American worker.



  12. Adrian Thornton 12

    Twitter (and Facebook/YouTube) become more and more an unaccountable censors of public discourse….silence from our media.

    Glenn Greenwald: It took [twitter] only two years to go from disappearing Milo and Alex Jones to banning content said to "amplify narratives that undermine faith in NATO." Imagine where the line will be two years from now.

    Glenn Greenwald: It took [twitter] only two years to go from disappearing Milo and Alex Jones to banning content said to "amplify narratives that undermine faith in NATO." Imagine where the line will be two years from now. from stupidpol

    Twitter bans state accounts for “undermining faith in NATO” and targeted the US and EU


    • Sabine 12.1

      poor thing.

      who cares?

      • McFlock 12.1.1

        It's even more boring than that.

        The narratives that were being artificially amplified had an objective of "undermining faith in NATO", but it was the amplifying that incurred the ban, not the objective:

        You can’t artificially amplify or disrupt conversations through the use of multiple accounts or by coordinating with others to violate the Twitter Rules. This includes:

        • overlapping accounts – operating multiple accounts with overlapping use cases, such as identical or similar personas or substantially similar content;
        • mutually interacting accounts – operating multiple accounts that interact with one another in order to inflate or manipulate the prominence of specific Tweets or accounts; and
        • coordination – creating multiple accounts to post duplicative content or create fake engagement, including:
          • posting identical or substantially similar Tweets or hashtags from multiple accounts you operate;
          • engaging (Retweets, Likes, mentions, Twitter Poll votes) repeatedly with the same Tweets or accounts from multiple accounts that you operate;
          • coordinating with or compensating others to engage in artificial engagement or amplification, even if the people involved use only one account; and
          • coordinating with others to engage in or promote violations of the Twitter Rules, including violations of our abusive behavior policy.

        Going down the link hole from the original comment:

        “The 373 associated accounts across the four networks were permanently suspended from Twitter for violations of our platform manipulation policies,” the company said in a blog post.

  13. Gosman 13

    "We could undo the global economic arrangements that systematically and intentionally funnel wealth to some countries while intensifying poverty in others."

    Which country has poverty intensified as a result of wealth being funneled to another country?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Incognito 13.1

      It is a tiny second-world country you probably have never heard of: Aotearoa.

  14. Gosman 14

    NZ's terms of trade has generally been positive and our current account balance has been relatively consistent for much of our recent history. Outside the issues with housing affordability poverty has been static or even falling for the past 25 years.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • arkie 14.1

      ANZ makes almost $2b from New Zealand banking

      Sam Stubbs, founder of KiwiSaver provider Simplicity, said banks were taking advantage of their dominant market position to extract unreasonable profits.

      "The ANZ will make more profit this year than Fonterra, Spark, Fletcher Building, Warehouse, Air NZ and all the supermarkets combined did last year. It's one bank, yet its profits are almost twice that of the top seven power companies combined. And it all goes back to Aussie."


      • Gosman 14.1.1

        How is a single largely overseas owned organisation's profit impacting our wealth and increasing poverty?

        • arkie

          You don't care, you're here to derail.

          • Gosman

            No. I'm here to burst your self reinforcing confirmation bubble by asking difficult questions.

            NZ's economy was built on foreign capital imported by foreign banks. The NZ Banking sector has been dominated by overseas owned entities since 1840.

            • arkie

              And since then the profits (see wealth) leaves the local economy leaving us poorer (see poverty/growing inequality)

              You aren't actually asking difficult questions, you're doing your usual JAQing off and changing your arguement with every 'question'.

              It's bad faith, and not interesting.

              • Gosman

                Following your logic NZ is poorer today than it was in 1840. Please explain how that is possible?

                The fact is it is not poorer. It is very much richer. The reason is because the capital that these foreign owned banks brought in to the county enabled many people to develop profitable businesses that would not have been possible otherwise.

                • Pat

                  Is NZ richer?…the water is poorer, the soil is poorer, our timber stocks are poorer in both quality and quantity….the list is long.

                  And Offshore banks have only been in the domestic market for less than 40 years.

                  • Gosman

                    Yeah it is. If you want to pretend NZ was wealthier in 1840 I can't help you.

                    • Pat

                      I guess it depends on how you define wealth….is a stranded asset wealth? printed plastic? numbers on a screen?

                  • Phil

                    And Offshore banks have only been in the domestic market for less than 40 years.

                    False – offshore banks started operating in NZ not long after european settlers arrived. The Bank of New South Wales was effectively NZ's central bank by the 1860's.

                    • Pat

                      Strictly speaking not….the offshore financial institutions (not necessarily retail banks) had a very small proportion of NZs market pre 1980s reforms

                      "Prior to the rapid deregulation in the mid-1980s, the variety of different types of financial institutions largely reflected the restrictions placed by statute or regulation on the types of business each institution could undertake. These constraints and protected niches all quickly disappeared, and over the next few years savings banks and building societies were progressively absorbed into or taken over by big commercial banks. As a result, many institutions were purchased by foreign entities. ANZ purchased the privatised Postbank. Commonwealth Bank of Australia purchased ASB Bank (one of the trustee savings banks). More recently, WestpacTrust took over Trustbank, formed from all the other trustee savings banks (with the exception of TSB Bank, which remains an independent entity). Private savings banks, which had previously been set up by parents to undertake certain types of lending, were wound back into the parent. The BNZ itself was fully privatised and sold to National Australia Bank in the early 1990s and Countrywide Bank, formed from several building societies, was taken over by National Bank later in the decade. It was during this time that the share of foreignowned banks began to increase to the high levels seen today"


                      "The government’s ownership of the BNZ, and use of it as its banker, allowed it to become the largest trading bank. It was fully nationalised in 1945.

                      An 1865 law which established the Post Office Savings Bank also curbed the rights of other savings banks and enabled it to absorb competitors. By the mid-1950s the Post Office Savings Bank controlled around 80% of the personal savings market."


            • weka

              Nothing in what you said was related to the post. Stop derailing.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 14.1.2

        Wouldn't use an Aussie-owned bank if you paid me – there are NZ alternatives.

        • Phil

          Interesting data point in your link (which is from 2017):

          …handled by the Banking Ombudsman, which dealt with 2704 cases and complaints. About 77 percent of those cases related to the Australian banks.

          Australian-owned banks make up roughly 85% of the banking market. That means they're actually a bit better at resolving issues and not driving customers into the complaint process as often as the (mostly NZ-owned) other banks.

          • Gosman

            Most of the satisfaction with NZ owned banks is perception not reality. Most people will say they prefer NZ owned banks even if the service provided is of a lower quality.

          • Drowsy M. Kram

            You're probably right Phil – nevertheless from time-to-time NZ Consumer and other organisations survey bank customers, and NZ-owned banks always top the customer satisfaction rankings.

            But then I’ve been a happy TSB customer for some 20 years (after ditching Westpac), so of course I would say that.

            TSB wins Consumer NZ People’s Choice Award for fifth year in a row



            • Phil

              from time-to-time NZ Consumer and other organisations survey bank customers, and NZ-owned banks always top the customer satisfaction rankings.

              Yeah, I don't dispute that the NZ banks produce higher customer satisfaction ratings in those surveys, but the glaringly obvious fact is that the revealed preference of the vast majority of NZ'ers (85-ish percent of us) is that we're entirely comfortable banking with one or more of the aussie owned big-4.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Yeah, I don't dispute that the majority of NZers bank with Aussie-owned banks. Just not sure if "entirely comfortable" accurately captures the feelings of all NZ customers of Aussie-owned banks. But if it does, then presumably (based on customer satisfaction surveys), it would be fair to describe customers of NZ-owned banks as being 'more than entirely comfortable' with the service(s) provided.

                Personally, after 20 years as a satisfied TSB customer, I can't imagine what might cause me to switch back to Westpac.

                • Pat

                  The issue is greater than that….consider the similarity and interconnectivity of the NZ and Australian economies….we are almost a single market that is exposed to the same threats, if their banks fall over so do ours and vice versa

                • Phil

                  Perhaps a better way to put it would be that the vast majority of New Zealanders are sufficiently satisfied with their Aus-owned banks that they don't feel a need to shift to a different institution. 🙂

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Banking with Aussie-owned banks is unquestionably the most popular choice for New Zealanders, just as it's crystal clear that customers of NZ-owned banks are on average more satisfied with bank service(s).

                    It would be interesting to tease out why banking with a NZ-owned bank not a popular choice in NZ, given that their customers apparently enjoy a greater degree of satisfaction.

                    Perhaps there's a perception that switching banks is a hassle, particularly if you've got a mortgage or other debt.

                    Switching banks

                    Switching banks is safe, easy and fast. Your new bank can take care of everything in five working days. It’s the fastest switching in the world.

                    This process also links recurring payments, such as direct debits and automatic payments, to your new bank account number. Your new bank can do all that for you, through a single form.

        • Gosman

          Kiwibank does not have the infrastructure in place to support business banking in any meaningful way. Their IT systems are limiting their growth and they have failed a number of times to upgrade them.

      • Phil 14.1.3

        Re: your 2018 link

        The ANZ will make more profit this year than Fonterra, Spark, Fletcher Building, Warehouse, Air NZ and all the supermarkets combined did last year. It's one bank, yet its profits are almost twice that of the top seven power companies combined.

        ANZ's NZ balance sheet is $179 billion dollars. Fonterra's is, conveniently for this analysis, $17.9b, so ANZ is 10 times as large as Fonterra.

        In 2020 ANZ made just under $1.4b in profit, while Fonterra made $830m.

        Ten times larger, but only making (slightly less than) twice the profits. Huh, it's almost like people will take every opportunity to bash the Australian owned banks without putting in any thought or effort.

        • arkie

          Either amount, the profit still leaves the local economy, this is funneling wealth to out of the country leaving us poorer, which was the point. That it is not as much in 2020 compared to 2018 is irrelevant.

          I’m not sure this counts as ‘bashing’ but I’m sure ANZ are glad you’re here to support them.

          • Gosman

            Some of the profit MAY leave the economy. Not all of it does. Regardless the capital that ANZ provides to the NZ economy provides the basis for investments in the productive areas of the economy which leads to economic growth.

    • Incognito 14.2

      You were asking about wealth funnelling and you think that this has something to do with our current account balance!? Are you for real? They are completely different things. You’re so ignorant that there is clearly no point discussing this with you.

      Oh, yes, besides that pesky little housing ‘crisis’ all is well in Aotearoa.

      You’re simply trolling here and you’ve already been moved to OM, twice. I think you should go for the trifecta.

  15. Adrian Thornton 15

    Well as you are a known stanch defender of the Liberal Free Market status quo, obviously not you….but people who advocate for actual progressive change around the world will be getting very concerned.

    • Sabine 15.1

      there are a few billion people on this planet that don't have twitter, don't go on twitter, and could not be bothered.

      As for GG, has he mentioned Reality Winner lately? Or is that unpolite. I hear she was cancelled, err locked up for leaking information to he Intercept and will be uncancelled in Nov 21 after 5 years in the slammer.

      Oh that is not a cancellation that is important. Or maybe GG just has nothing to say about that cause it ain't sexy or something?

      I dont' care about the liberal market any more then you do, but GG is a wanker and "twitter" is a private business that can do as it pleases. Anyone else can just abstain and not validate it.

      Same as with FB, Gab, Parler, and any of the other social medias.

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