Open mike 02/05/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 2nd, 2024 - 80 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

80 comments on “Open mike 02/05/2024 ”

  1. Jimmy 1

    Another Greens MP seems to have lost the plot. Which one's next?

    Perhaps we never gave Shaw enough credit for keeping them all on a short lead.

    Green MP Julie Anne Genter apologises after confrontation with Minister Matt Doocey, could face further action – NZ Herald

    • SPC 1.1

      Thanks for the "crickets". Shaw the best of them. Not the same without Norman. Now Fitzsimmons and Donald were real Greens … . Bring back Nandor.

      I wonder why she thought that a Minister had a lack of basic knowledge of their portfolio?

      • Jimmy 1.1.1

        There is no excuse for any MP to behave like that in Parliament no matter how heated the debate gets.

    • Cricklewood 1.2

      Thats ugly, needs to be sanctioned accordingly as a deterent.

    • Mike the Lefty 1.3

      Wow! Waving papers in front of someones face is SO threatening. Dooley was clearly afraid for his life. No mention of when National's Muldoon used to brandish his fist in front of Labour members' faces. Silly thing to do by an experienced MP but a good excuse for a National Party sympathy campaign based on bs and hypocrisy.

      • James Simpson 1.3.1

        Getting out of your seat in the middle of a debate and confronting someone face to face to argue the point is the issue.

        If that was permitted then parliament would turn into a circus (if it isn't one already).

        Is it really that difficult for our MPs to simply sit there, listen, and wait for their turn to speak? Other than primary school what kind or work place allows for the kind of childish tantrum throwing that goes on in parliament.

      • Jimmy 1.3.2

        Just imagine if a male National MP had crossed the floor and waved papers in the face of JAG or any other female Green or Labour MP. I bet that would of upset you.
        Muldoon is going back a bit in time! What about Mallard and actual punch ups if you want to bring up incidents from decades ago.

        • Mike the Lefty 1.3.2.1

          I've met Genter, she doesn't come across as someone you'd be scared of getting a beating from. Just another excuse for you to Green bash Jimmy and thats all. Hope you are as proactive when Shane Jones next threatens someone.

          • weka 1.3.2.1.1

            the problem is the precedent it sets.

          • Jimmy 1.3.2.1.2

            I've met Sam Uffindell briefly. He also doesn't come across as someone you'd be scared of getting a beating from.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 1.3.2.1.2.1

              Uffindell? Wooden, I reckon.

              He also doesn’t come across as someone you’d be scared of getting a beating from.

              Maybe if you'd had the opportunity to get to know him better smiley

              • Jimmy

                I never got to meet him when he was sixteen. Could have been interesting as I was younger back then too.

              • Tiger Mountain

                Heh, that would be Sam-“hey it’s still early in the night…let’s go out clubbing!!…

      • weka 1.3.3

        it was fucking stupid from an experienced MP not least* because of the politicking that follows. The only excuse I can think of is that she was having a bad day, and I bet the reactionary right knows exactly what to do with that.

        *it's also bizarre. Afaik this is way outside of normal behaviour in the House. I don't care what Muldoon did, I care what left MPs do and how they set the tone and expectations.

      • Anne 1.3.4

        Mike the Lefty @ 1.3

        What about the occasion John Key made a cut throat gesture to Phil Goff. Goff had done nothing, Just sitting quietly in his seat. A prime minister n'all too!

        Disgusting behaviour. I'd have a few pages waved in my face any day.smiley

        Edit: caught on camera too.

    • That_guy 1.4

      It was stupid from such an experienced MP and she faced the consequences.

      Gonna be real honest and say that I think she is by far the person who has the most experience and vision on urban planning, transport and design, and is probably the only person in parliament who would understand the question "how can we design cities to facilitate a play-based childhood".

      Matt Doocey's claim to fame is some good cross-party work on mental health and that he worked for the disgraced Tavistock. On the issue of transport, urban planning and design, he should defer to his betters.

      She probably just lost it and wanted to shove some facts in his face. I don't approve, but I do understand.

      Honestly, I’d like to get into parliament and shake the Cass report in Doocey’s face. And then I would turn around and shake the Cass report in the face of the entire Green Party, and also every other party.

    • AB 1.5

      Rage is a rational response to clowns of all stripes and their fact-free reckons, particularly if you are someone who actually knows something about a topic and you suspect that their idiocy is driven by malice.

      But the behaviour can't be excused – both because Parliament requires proper behaviour to function, and because every politician who is at all left of what constitutes the notional centre of the day, will be beaten up and dragged through the dirt for an extended period of time for this sort of thing.

    • Jilly Bee 1.6

      Whilst not condoning what Julie Anne Genter did in Parliament yesterday, (though I would be curious to know what brought it on – what Matt Doocey may have done/said to her), it's not exactly unknown for National MPs to act in a similar fashion. I reckon JAG's actions were pretty mild in comparison to Tim van de Molen's threatening outburst to Shanan Halbert.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/496823/national-mp-tim-van-de-molen-censured-by-parliament

      • Belladonna 1.6.1

        Difference is that Van de Molen didn't exhibit his bad behaviour in the House, in front of the cameras.

        Outstandingly stupid of Genter – and I do expect better of her.

  2. Sanctuary 2

    Watching an ethno-nationalist Jewish mob (self-identified themselves as such) attacking the pro-Palestinian encampment at UCLA rmade me think the US authorities had downloaded yet another Israeli tactic of oppression. Mobs of murderous Jewish settlers rampaging through Palestinian settlements while the IDF looks on benignly is routine there.

    No wonder the mob at UCLA felt they could act with total immunity, its been happening on the West Bank while the USA provided the weapons to do it for decades.

    • Bearded Git 2.1

      +100 Sanc

    • AB 2.2

      There's a theory that the tactics employed in the colonies eventually make their way back to the heart of empire – as though they were just a dress-rehearsal. That may partly explain the apparent contradiction of why the anti-Semitic far-right in the US so love Israel – they just like the cut of their jib and how they go about doing the things necessary to make [insert name of country here] great again.

      • Sanctuary 2.2.1

        The mind boggling thing is this extreme police violence has been triggered by middle class kids being idealists. The signal to police & mob violence is clearly coming from university administrators – something that reveals the fault lines between elite institution students, who are largely motivated by youthful idealism, and the colonisation of university administration by authoritarian neoliberal managers. It perhaps explains the deep trouble so many universities are in at the moment in the USA, where a predatory approach to student fees has seen enrollments plumet (according to Ted Goia, elite tertiary educational institutions are going under at the rate of one every week at the moment). The idea that university authorities should order riot police to attack their own students on campus, or that the university security should stand by while an out of control mob attacked students on their campus, is outrageous to the extreme.

        God only knows how unhinged the police reaction would be if Huey P Newton and 100 Black Panthers were on hand to fight back!

    • Subliminal 2.3

      Well put Sanctuary.

      It used to be that these types of provocations were hidden but we now get to see the violence directed at protest that fundamentally affects power. As well as this, video exists of the same type of Israel flag wavers, in direct confontation with Palestinian supporters, shouting "kill the Jews" in order to get the Palestine supporters arrested. We need to be aware of these old tried and true tactics.

      It was students that raised the US out of the moral morass that was the Vietnam war. It may be that they can do it again for Palestine.

  3. Ffloyd 3

    What on earth is Sir Jinx Key doing in Parliament? Front and centre! Rallying the troops? It didn’t work before so I don’t see his appearance being of any use now. T-Shirts! Pop ups in parliament! Just to prop up that Lummox Luxon. Reeks of desperation. So very sad for the dynamic dick,… not really… but . I feel a big positive spin for the COC coming on from compliant media. I wonder who will be first up.

  4. weka 4

    Anyone want to have a crack at explaining what James Shaw's new job is?

    Shortly after his speech wrapped up, it was revealed Shaw would join global infrastructure management company Morrison from July, and take on a director role at new investment management company Greenbridge Capital Management.

    He is also joining Air New Zealand's Sustainability Advisory Panel and the board of the World Wide Fund for Nature New Zealand.

    In his speech, Shaw said he was setting himself a five-year mission to reduce or remove 150 million tonnes of climate pollution from global emissions by 2030 (which is also New Zealand's Nationally Determined Contribution under the Paris Agreement).

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/515700/james-shaw-s-valedictory-and-his-new-roles

    • SPC 4.1

      Morrison's owns infrastructure companies such as Infratil.

      https://morrisonglobal.com/

      And a Public Infrastructure Partnership Fund (PIP Fund)

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_%26_Co

      He will be an operating partner – in a role “focused on driving the next generation of investment".

      https://businessdesk.co.nz/article/news-in-brief/morrison-appoints-james-shaw

    • Ad 4.2

      Also HRL Morrison at that level is a whole bunch more useful to the world than Shaw getting recycled into a government entity like NZSuperFund or ACC.

      Shaw is one of the few elected members on either side of the house who operate outside the Wellington policy bubble and easily in the commercial world.

      First half of my professional life I used to think doing good for the world was only possible inside the public sector. In this country it's almost the reverse.

      • weka 4.2.1

        why is that so for NZ?

        • Ad 4.2.1.1

          We have had since the late 1980s a public service that is under-led and poorly resourced,

          with no cross-departmental strategy or even an attempt at it,

          disaggregated by deep funder-policy-provider spits,

          under-regulated or worse self-regulating,

          disconnected from independent policy contests in academia or NGOs,

          far too many entities for the scale of land people and social complexity

          consistently incoherent governments that change course or go through deliberate binge-purge cycles like the current and last one,

          bosses that change at least every 3 years,

          consistently poor execution of major projects due to generalist management,

          disdain from much of the public that is reciprocated by so much of the public service in Wellington, and

          a rapid shrinking in the entire public sphere of influence in New Zealand in the 1990s that we've never recovered from.

  5. weka 5

    Watching the police clearing Palestine liberation protestors from US campuses, I'm thinking about the ways in which this is different from clearing freedom protestors from Parliament grounds.

    https://twitter.com/NaomiMaePhD/status/1785657833750516155

    The freedom protestors had a number of problems in terms of legitimacy of protest. The death threats and inability to deal with the storm the citadel bros in their ranks and the abuse of locals outside the protest area are the main ones I see. And the denial that those were issues.

    But in terms of occupation, they had as much right to be there as the students in the US.

    Which leaves us with the idea that some protests are legitimate because of the politics/goals, and some aren't. And who gets to decide.

    • weka 5.1

      For clarity, I think the US campus occupations are righteous and I hope they regroup and continue. This is one of the few things I’ve seen that has the potential to force the US government position on the genocide in Palestine to change.

      I also think there are some mistakes in the way they are doing this that are going to create serious divisions in an already divided country.

      And I'm deeply depressed that those kids aren't doing this over climate, and what this means for life on planet earth.

      • Darien Fenton 5.1.1

        It's their Vietnam moment. Remember that war raised the consciousness of a whole new generation.

        • weka 5.1.1.1

          I really hope so.

        • bwaghorn 5.1.1.2

          raised the consciousness

          They don't appear to have achieved any change though, iraq×2 Afghanistan,,

          Shit the only war they should be in is slapping poots back in his box and they not really trying there

          • weka 5.1.1.2.1

            there's a genocide happening, some of the students will have family and friends in Palestine. Protesting that is appropriate.

            There were huge protests against the invasion of Iraq. Those changed how we think about war and the West's involvement.

        • James Simpson 5.1.1.3

          The difference is tens of thousands of poor working class US kids were getting killed and injured in Vietnam. Everyone knew someone who was in Vietnam fighting.

          Although the US is donkey deep in Palestine, there aren't feet on the ground in the same way as Vietnam. For most American's it is still someone else's war.

          • weka 5.1.1.3.1

            It's also gendocide.

          • Belladonna 5.1.1.3.2

            Agree with this. The US population is massively inwards looking.
            Other people being killed in a far-away country isn't really 'real' to them. What matters is 'that nice Mrs Johnston at the corner store has had a son killed in Vietnam. Why are we fighting there anyway'.

            And that only really kicks into place with conscription – if professional soldiers (even US ones) are killed, there is an element of 'well, they chose to be there'.

            Americans tend to get exercised about US citizens and soldiers being killed by terrorist ambushes, but not about professional soldiers being killed fighting.

    • Ad 5.2

      Just seeking major US universities cave on this is truly sad.

      Lest one forgets the number of armed civilians patrolling US streets in utes after the 2020 election.

  6. Reality 6

    David Seymour is apparently looking into packaged school lunches. Muesli bars and the like. Not surprising that he would resent money being spent on a hot meal in winter for the children. His mean-spiritedness to the fore as usual.

    • SPC 6.1

      It'll be unchanged for now (Labour funded to the end of this year) and it seems it will be in the 2025 budget – waiting for a review.

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/05/free-school-lunches-scheme-to-get-temporary-funding-until-

      • ianmac 6.1.1

        I read somewhere today that Seymour was proposing to cut fresh fruit and vegetables and instead use tinned fruit and tinned beans. (Can't remember where.)

    • Belladonna 6.2

      Really going a bit far there. Generations of Kiwi kids have had a lunch consisting of a couple of sandwiches and an apple (with a biscuit or piece of home baking, if you were lucky). None of us died for the want of a hot lunch in winter; or had our schooling affected.

      The provision of a meal for kids whose parents don't or can't provide them with lunch, is one thing. Insisting that it be a catering quality hot meal, is something quite different.

      • Anne 6.2.1

        Generations of Kiwi kids have had a lunch consisting of a couple of sandwiches and an apple (with a biscuit or piece of home baking, if you were lucky). None of us died for the want of a hot lunch in winter; or had our schooling affected.

        No. Because the vast majority of us got a hot evening meal. Many of these 'poor' kids don't get hot meals full stop. So a hot lunch is important and helps them learn at school. A fuller belly leads to a fuller mind.

        • Belladonna 6.2.1.1

          There is no evidence, whatsoever, that having a hot lunch makes up for not having a hot meal at the end of the day.
          Having lunch, yes. But not a cooked meal.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 6.3

      Three great forces rule the world: stupidity, fear and greed.” – Einstein

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/16-08-2022/the-side-eyes-two-new-zealands-the-table

      Seymour mingy? Maybe – he understands the ‘benefits’ of keeping some Kiwis hungry.

      Why poverty in New Zealand is everyone's concern
      Liang describes poverty as a "heritable condition" that perpetuates and amplifies through generations: "It is also not hard to see how individual poverty flows into communities and society, with downstream effects on economics, crime and health, as well as many other systems. Loosen one strand and everything else unravels."

      A Kete Half Empty
      Poverty is your problem, it is everyone's problem, not just those who are in poverty. – Rebecca, a child from Te Puru

  7. newsense 7

    Anyone in Labour want to talk to the press (and the party ‘leader’ while you’re at it) about how policy is made or is supposed to be made in Labour?

    18 seats the Greens. That will grow if Labour keeps on as is.

    Audrey Young (and potentially the leader’s office who knows) is setting out their own axis of evil in Labour who, shock, horror, want tax reform. This is a mildly left wing position. It is being positioned as a hardliner group. Oh my god, one of these rabid socialists is allegedly Phil Twyford. Another is the IMF.

    Surely policy has a lot of bottom up development? The party membership is in favour of something and it gets suggested.

    Anyway, Labour looking like NZF with less initiative isn’t getting my vote back.

    • Craig H 7.1

      Labour Party policy development has a lot of opportunities for involvement of the general membership, so we don't always get everything we want, but there's a chance to provide input and get more involved if we want to be.

  8. Jimmy 8

    JAG will not be attending Parliament today. Anyone else see that coming?

  9. Ad 9

    Hipkins has taken on a most formidable opponent in Winston Peters.

    Live: Chris Hipkins says Winston Peters’ has ‘embarrassed the country’ with remarks | Stuff

    Hipkins will have been begging for this kind of fight when Labour arranged for the foreign affairs debate in the Parliament chamber with Helen Clark, ex-Minister Carr and other notables.

    Finally Hipkins has found a useful policy target in foreign policy. Problem is, up against Peters and MFAT and the defence establishment, the best Hipkins will achieve is a dent, not a wound.

    Still, best of luck Hipkins.

    • newsense 9.1

      I suppose chip chip chip at the bottom of the wall is the theory, if you watch any of those demolition disaster shorts online. Hit and move on targets.

      The only problem is the left block has achieved most of late with Hipkins not taking the lead, so by and large the public forget about him also having recently been PM and not well liked.

    • weka 9.2

      Helen Clark's twitter has been interesting.

      • Visubversa 9.2.1

        Helen Clark kept Winston on a very short lead when he was Foreign Affairs Minister.

        He had 2 Associate Ministers – Phil Goff to do the heavy lifting with policy etc, and Chris Carter to do the relationship building and general "schmoozing".

        Plus lots of air tickets to comfortable places and pre-written speeches.

    • Belladonna 9.3

      Attacking Peters on his own ground is a losing proposition. There is no way that Hipkins can out-demagogue Peters on Foreign Policy. Debate and Speechifying is Peters' strong point. It's not a significant strength for Hipkins.

      • Phillip ure 9.3.1

        I thought bombast and bullshit were Peter's 'strong point'…

        • Phillip ure 9.3.1.1

          Correction:..I left out 'bluster'..

          • Belladonna 9.3.1.1.1

            And evidence that Hipkins has any ability to counter any or all of these?

            Peters is like a shark in the water to controversial debate. Feeding him is not the solution.

    • SPC 9.4

      Labour is unwilling to make it a contest on economic policy while they have none, so it is merely opposition to austerity and the poverty of vision. And issues such as AUKUS.

      But others want a 1984 and 1975 reprise. In that Clark talks about a non aligned Pacific (despite Five Eyes, NATO+ and security alliance with Oz).

      Labour’s potential disagreement on AUKUS seems more like the decision of English to support the coalition of the willing in 2003 (with UK and Oz) than that.

      My ears have been popping for about half an hour, so I know someone in Wellington is angry and has access to advanced tech – destablising the left wing ear.In 2003 the police actually visited the home to act as lackey for a foreign interest supporting the war on the secular left of Iraq and here conflict with China over Taiwan.

      • Ad 9.4.1

        Labour should propose a full dfence Treaty with Australia.

        We are near fully interoperable already. So it sounds a lot bolder than it is.

        Well overdue to re-write the 1944 Canberra Pact.

        • Scud 9.4.1.1

          There is also CDR (Common Defence Relations) which Labour signed in between 87 & 90. Which was meant to further enhanced the ANZAC Treaty (Canberra Pact), but unfortunately the National Party of the 90's completely trashed it with the Savaged Defence Cuts of the 90's & Labour Alliance Coalition finally killing it off with the disbanding of the RNZAF Strike Wing along with any hope of the 3rd ANZAC Frigate or the cancelling of the option for 8 C130J's on the back of the RAAF order in the early 2000's.

          My gut feeling atm, IRT centre left Politics in NZ atm IRT to the NZDF/ MoD & Veterans Affairs we are likely to a repeat of the early 2000's if & when this chaos Coalition collapses.

          As the Green's & TPM would force NZLP not to invest the NZDF capabilities & if so the absolute bare minimum in non combat capabilities let alone Defence assets aka infrastructure because both parties still believe that the Sth Pacific is a "benign strategic environment".

          The Sth Pacific has never been a benign strategic environment, especially since the White Fella aka The European's turned up & of recent times Japan post WW1 & now China. Now throw in CC & the competition for Natural resources ie Timber, POL, Fisheries & resources etc the Sth Pacific & the Sth Ocean is ripe for pillaging atm.

          Which means country's like NZ now not only have to rely on Diplomacy, but now have to start carrying a bloody big stick (well equipped & combat capable/ focus NZDF) as well & be prepared to use bloody thing as well!

    • Traveller 9.5

      Hipkins should have sat this one out. It's not MFAT or the defence establishment he's fighting, it's that Peter's claims are not new.

      How Bob Carr became China's pawn (archive.is)

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