Open mike 03/02/2024

95 comments on “Open mike 03/02/2024 ”

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1. Muttonbird 1

   3 February 2024 at 6:24 am

   Look, everyone must have a job and her chosen job is to peddle carcinogens to poor people. Nothing wrong with that:

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350166539/pm-christopher-luxons-sister-law-works-tobacco-company
   • weka 1.1

     3 February 2024 at 8:05 am

     My brother in law votes National. I have relatives who are industrial farmers.

     Are we really going after MP's relatives now? That's not the story. The story is what Luxon means when he says due process has been followed regarding conflicts of interest.
     • Robert Guyton 1.1.1

       3 February 2024 at 8:57 am

       The criticism isn't of her.

       Another brick in the wall, that's all.
       • weka 1.1.1.1

         3 February 2024 at 9:07 am

         Muttonbird decided to focus on her. Which means the right can focus on the family of left politicians.
         • Muttonbird 1.1.1.1.1

           3 February 2024 at 1:22 pm

           The right do do that, all the time.

           The article decided to focus on her, it's the headline.

           I'd say marketing manager for Phillip Morris is right up there for worst things to dedicate your life to. Worse even that voting National and industrial farming.
           • weka 1.1.1.1.1.1

             3 February 2024 at 2:27 pm

             Good to know you are setting your standards by National and the MSM.

             If you are going to do what they do, then you can't complain when they do it.
     • Tiger Mountain 1.1.2

       3 February 2024 at 10:45 am

       Few would likely give one about Mr Luxon’s sister in law if she was not in the Tobacco Industry, totally fair game with the current situation with Minister Costello.

       I still recall Judith Collins effectively executing Ian Lees Galloway’s career on TV one morning by mentioning an affair. Clarke Gayford was pursued by a nasty online campaign to the extent that NZ Police issued a rare statement along the lines that Mr Gayford was of no interest to them on any matter.

       Turn the other cheek, take the high road? I don’t think so in 2024.

       If you have tory relatives it is not your fault!
       • Anne 1.1.2.1

         3 February 2024 at 11:25 am

         If you have tory relatives it is not your fault!

         Correct. Most of us have them.

         But if you are the PM and have a relative by marriage who works for the tobacco industry at a time when there are questions of interference in policy making by tobacco industry chiefs, then you can expect it to be reported by the media and be commented upon elsewhere.

         When weka says: "the right can focus on the family of left politicians." The right have been doing that for the past 15 years.

         Remember the personal barbs and malicious 'revelations' about Nanaia Mahuta and her family. Remember the salacious and disgusting lies spread about Jacinda Ardern's partner, Clarke Gayford. The police were forced into making a public statement denying them. There were other minsters also whose personal lives were questioned for no other reason other than to discredit them.

         We can go back further and remember the salacious and disgusting lies spread about Helen's husband Peter Davis – not to mention Helen Clark herself. Iirc, some of her ministers were also on the receiving end.

         The right has practiced dirty politics in the form of personal slander, innuendo and misinformation on a grand scale, so any response in return could almost be claimed as justified. They are the one's who introduced this phenomenon to NZ political society.
         • Kat 1.1.2.1.1

           3 February 2024 at 11:50 am

           Goes way way back…..Muldoon in the public toilets with the Moyle affair 1976….

           That National reflect 39% of the electorate is a sad indictment on the hollow values many people in this country support.
           • Robert Guyton 1.1.2.1.1.1

             3 February 2024 at 12:03 pm

             Winning is everything and if you have to play dirty to win, so be it!

             Brash, wasn't it, who said words to that effect.
             • Kat …

               3 February 2024 at 12:12 pm

               Luxon prior to last election:

               “The only target I have is winning government. It’s that simple. All that matters is winning government on October 14.”

               Luxon had arrived at the conference wearing a red Crusaders’ jersey, saying he liked the team “because they win. They win nice or they win ugly but they win.”

               Asked if that meant he was happy for National to “win ugly”, he said, “I just want to win”.

               https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-party-leader-christopher-luxon-admits-45-per-cent-election-result-target-is-a-stretch-goal/I7VYCGVDFJCRJJHBDCAL6OYNGU/
               • Stephen D …

                 3 February 2024 at 1:18 pm

                 On a par with;

                 ”I did not have sex with that woman.”

                 ”I did not inhale.”
             • alwyn …

               3 February 2024 at 1:05 pm

               The only person I have ever seen using those words was you Robert.

               Can you produce any evidence of anyone else saying them?

               [deleted]

               [I don’t know what you are on about, but you’ve been here long enough to know I don’t like having to moderate on Saturdays. Take the weekend off – weka]
               • Muttonbird …

                 3 February 2024 at 1:26 pm

                 Are you stalking a member of this forum?

                 Not great.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 3 February 2024 at 2:30 pm

                 You'll feel compelled, alwyn, to provide evidence (see:

                 3 February 2024 at 1:05 pm )

                 As well, you'll probably have to face weka et al, who don't seem to favour the kind of sly innuendo you've indulged in here.
               • weka …

                 3 February 2024 at 2:35 pm

                 mod note
           • Anne 1.1.2.1.1.2

             3 February 2024 at 1:10 pm

             "Goes way way back…."

             Oh yeah Kat. I am personal testament to that. Muldoon had a black list and my name ended up on it courtesy of a jealous person who had a specific 'channel' through which she could feed falsehoods.

             Muldoon had a bunch of shady individuals (a few of whom were involved in that scurrilous rag "The Truth”) who did his dirty work for him. Moyle was his most notable target but there were plenty more behind the scenes whose stories have never been told.
     • gsays 1.1.3

       3 February 2024 at 1:02 pm

       "Are we really going after MP's relatives now?"

       You are right, weka. I admire yr patience.

       There seems to be a pandemic of worrying about the mote in our metaphoric brother's eye. I have a feeling we could mill the beam in our own (to further mangle an allegory), if someone finds a senior Labour person with links to the alcohol industry.
       • alwyn 1.1.3.1

         3 February 2024 at 1:36 pm

         The best known Labour Politician with links to the alcohol industry was probably their first Prime Minister, Michael Joseph Savage who worked for Sir Ernest Davis' company Hancock and Company from 1908 until he entered Parliament in 1919.

         Sir Ernest "Booze" was a major supporter, and financer, of the early Labour organization in New Zealand. This included lodging securities for jailed agitators during the 1912 Waihi miner's dispute and providing John A Lee with a hotel to manage after he lost his seat in Parliament in 1928.

         One might not approve of him but Ernest Davis was a fascinating man.

         https://teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/4d7/davis-ernest-hyam
         • gsays 1.1.3.1.1

           3 February 2024 at 1:51 pm

           Cheers, Alwyn. I will give him a looksie.

           I haven't read enough of NZ political history, but what I have, I find interesting.

           John A Lee's autobiography is one of the most recent.

           Funny how his version of events differs a lot from public perception of those early Labour leaders.
   • Tiger Mountain 1.2

     3 February 2024 at 10:35 am

     International Tobacco is a vile money trench, second only to the Arms Industry.

     Baldrick must have known this connection would be outed…but perhaps just does not give a shit, or take it seriously. A number of Natzos over the years have “worked”–it is just a big cruise for execs–in tobacco, and now there seem to be senior tobacco linked MPs galore.
     • Muttonbird 1.2.1

       3 February 2024 at 1:29 pm

       Yes, tobacco does seem to be a feeder industry for National/NZF politicians. I wonder if this is what they mean when they talk about working in the real world.
       • Tiger Mountain 1.2.1.1

         3 February 2024 at 3:00 pm

         anyone remember Todd Barclay?…

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tobacco-lobbyists-stand-for-national-seats/DKVPIFNF7H3BUDCAXF4SGU6QZE/
         • Robert Guyton 1.2.1.1.1

           3 February 2024 at 3:14 pm

           Yes.
       • Robert Guyton 1.2.1.2

         3 February 2024 at 3:11 pm

         Yes.
   • SPC 1.3

     3 February 2024 at 11:08 am

     She has been in the job since 2004, probably before being an in law.

     It's quite likely she has never discussed the tobacco industry with the Christopher the Unready.
     • Tiger Mountain 1.3.1

       3 February 2024 at 11:15 am

       C’mon, Baldrick is a money man. It is vital for such types, men particularly, to size up others for their usefulness or threat. They desperately need to know what others in their circles “Do”.
       • Robert Guyton 1.3.1.1

         3 February 2024 at 11:50 am

         Luxon is being mocked in the House by the Opposition, who respond to his evasions with derisive exclamations. Check out the moment he said, "companies" rather than "countries"; seemingly an inconsequential slip, but indicative of his unreadiness for answering questions from the other side of the House. Theirs is a guttural reaction. Key used to draw disgust with some of his comments and gestures; Luxon gets derision, which is far more damaging, imo.
         • Kat 1.3.1.1.1

           3 February 2024 at 11:52 am

           Luxon makes Shipley look competent and intellectual….and one of the top three National PM's in a generation…..take your pick on the other two.
2. Dennis Frank 2

   3 February 2024 at 7:02 am

   Hager painted the Nats as hollow men, Trotter paints the Labs same: https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2024/02/the-hollow-party.html

   Without focus group approval, no policy – not even one promoted by the Finance and Revenue ministers working together – could count on the Leader’s support. Progressive initiatives in justice and corrections were jettisoned overnight for no better reason than the polls had pronounced them unpopular. About the only policies that remained sacrosanct were those related to the aims and objectives of identity politics. These had to remain in place – if only to reassure Labour MPs that they were still on the side of the angels. Unfortunately for Labour’s re-election chances, these were the precisely the policies that a majority of the voters hated most.

   Yeah, when focus groups head in the opposite direction to voters no Lab politician will ever know what to think, so they will just continue to stand around looking vacant until someone comes along and tells them what to think.

   Trotter's facetious verdict is to ask Helen to come out of retirement & rescue them, but yesterday's leaders are rarely relevant today. It's really up to a younger generation within Labour to seize the time. Labour's hollowness is reflected in the poll trend:

   Support for Labour increased 1% point to 22% while support for the Greens surged 3% points to 15.5% – the highest support for the Greens for over a year since Oct 2022 & support for the Maori Party up 2.5% points to 5%.

   https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/9433-nz-national-voting-intention-december-2023
   • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1

     3 February 2024 at 8:30 am

     A biased snip of February snipes – rigor catches up with the best of us, eventually.

     …no Lab politician will ever know what to think, so they will just continue to stand around looking vacant…

     Labour must represent those who don't want "to confront the challenges of our time".

     …maybe she'll [Swabrick will] get there eventually…

     …Jacinda & facts seems rather loopy…

     …so obviously she [Clark] was too stupid to grasp the scientific facts…

     …which will be beyond their [the Green left network’s] cerebral capacity to integrate.

     Politicians are such slow learners. So are most commentators.

     "Why, why, why Delilah"
   • tc 2.2

     3 February 2024 at 11:17 am

     Trotters a useful tool, thats why he's gets his granny soapbox.

     It's really up to a younger generation…to form their own party and crack on with it. Convert a sitting or former MP to the cause and off you go, target an electorate as MMP makes it a shed load easier than Oz/UK etc.

     Leave the centrists who blew a majority term to it, that's not your party kids look at what happened to Cunliffe. Remember it was almost Shane Jones as leader back then so get out now.
     • gsays 2.2.1

       3 February 2024 at 1:10 pm

       I think you are on the money tc.

       A timely reminder of how things were not so long ago. Leave the pollies of both blue and red hues to wallow in the tar pits of last century's ideology. Let them bicker about their differences, which after all, only a cigarette paper separates them.

       Policy ideas for this new party to keep a resurgent Greens honest…

       F.T.T. to pay for a UBI.

       Any migrant arriving is part of a union.

       Meaningful reform of housing/landlording.

       Internet/water/energy are non profit activities.
   • Muttonbird 2.3

     3 February 2024 at 1:37 pm

     How can Labour have been driven by focus groups when those focus groups apparently would have told them lifting Maori, honouring Te Tiriti, improving water quality, and compassion for transgender people were such unpopular policies?

     Trotter's argument (and your own) makes zero sense.
     • Anne 2.3.1

       3 February 2024 at 6:59 pm

       Trotter talks bullshit. His claim Helen Clark manipulated the political scene in the 90s (I paraphrase what he said) to her personal advantage is bordering on conspiratorial claptrap. She's not clairvoyant nor does she have psychic abilities.

       Reading Paul Buchanan's (Pablo) latest post "The New Zealand Junta" makes infinite more sense:

       … New Zealand has had a constitutional coup of sorts. In October an election was held in which the major rightwing party (National) did not reveal its true policy intentions, preferring to instead focus on the usual canards of lower taxes, high crimes rates and too many regulations and bureaucratic red tape on property owners. They were assisted by a compliant corporate media interested in generating clickbait material rather than dealing deeper into party policy platforms, and who supported the “change for change sake” attitude of the NZ public by focusing on personal scandals within the Labour-led government ranks. It mattered little that, in public at least, the major rightwing party had little to offer. What mattered was that it win, be it in coalition or outright. As it turns out, it needed coalition partners in order to do so.

       The more extreme rightwing parties, ACT and NZ First, were a bit more honest in their campaigns about their reactionary intent, but the corporate media chose to ignore the extent of their connections to extremist groups and foreign donors/patrons such as anti-vaccination conspiracy theorists and Atlas Institute seed-funded astroturf groups such as the overlapping Free Speech Coalition/Taxpayer’s Union that contributed to their campaigns. Nor did the political press seriously look into the backgrounds of candidates in these parties, instead preferring to focus on the leaders and their immediate subordinates.

       What that made for was the instrumental use of the October election by the NZ rightwing in order to gain enough votes to cobble together an authoritarian-minded government coalition that would impose regressive policy prescriptions without full public scrutiny or consultation. It did not matter that the two extremist parties received less than 15 percent of the popular vote, or that National received just 38 percent. What mattered was the win, which was the instrument by which the coalition could impose its political will on the +45 percent that did not vote for them.

       And there you have the real reason for what happened on October 14, 2023. Not some of the bullshit I’m reading on this site.

       See first on sidebar for full post!
3. Dennis Frank 3

   3 February 2024 at 7:25 am

   Get this, from Hipkins in response to Chloe:

   She wants to mobilise them to have the first Greens-led Government. "I strongly believe the Greens are the leading left-wing party in Parliament," she said. "I believe radical change, at this point, is necessary to confront the challenges of our time – tinkering will no longer do that."

   In response, Labour leader Chris Hipkins said New Zealand electorate was a broad political spectrum and representation of those different views is important.

   He's talking in code. Translation: Labour must represent those who don't want "to confront the challenges of our time". Tinkering is cool, the top tinker believes.

   Chloe also sends a message in subliminal code: "Hey guys, I'm really leftist!" By positioning her co-leadership aspiration for "the leading left-wing party in Parliament", she's letting the Green Left Network know they don't need to put up a candidate to oppose her. That's clever, and I suspect she'll succeed in fooling them…

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/02/chl-e-swarbrick-s-big-plans-to-get-first-green-party-led-government-elected.html
   • weka 3.1

     3 February 2024 at 8:29 am

     Have to say I'm coming round to CS again now as co-leader. I hope that any other candidates go hard on the Green-led government as well.

     However, I'd also like to see the plan not just the rhetoric.
     • Robert Guyton 3.1.1

       3 February 2024 at 2:32 pm

       "Have to say I'm coming round to CS again now as co-leader…"

       Have you forgiven her trespasses against you? 🙂
       • weka 3.1.1.1

         3 February 2024 at 2:43 pm

         not really. More that I can see past the transgressions to what really matters. Something the Greens could learn from 😉 And a number of gender critical people.
         • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1.1

           3 February 2024 at 2:54 pm

           Why do you reckon Chloe doesn't get it?

           She's smart-as 🙂
           • weka 3.1.1.1.1.1

             3 February 2024 at 2:58 pm

             no idea. No Debate means it doesn't get talked about.

             Smart people can be dumb in some things, that's not unusual.
             • Robert Guyton …

               3 February 2024 at 3:10 pm

               But Chloe's not just "smart", she's a lively intellect and can parse all sorts of issues, elegantly. Why do you think she's failed to grasp your issue-de-jour?
               • Dennis Frank …

                 3 February 2024 at 3:14 pm

                 Group-think. Even got James under control.
               • weka …

                 3 February 2024 at 3:26 pm

                 Like I said, No Debate means it's never been talked about. You can't actually talk with people with that belief in that position about the issues. That's intentional, No Debate is intended to suppress dissent. So I literally don't know her thinking apart from the slogans.

                 I can tell you that there is such a thing as Peak Trans, which is where people who used to believe in gender identity ideology come to realise it's batshit crazy, they 'peak' as they realise that it doesn't make sense. Many left wing people have been through that process. Being smart, having a lively intellect that can parse all sorts of issues doesn't transcend that, and in fact ideology often stops very smart people from understanding things.

                 My initial point was that I can tolerate someone having quite different views from me and still allow them to be good at what they do. That capacity is being lost from the Greens and it is heartbreaking.

                 So when CS says she can work across the aisle, I think that means she can work with right wing politicians but she can't work with left wing gender critical feminists. I could be wrong, but afaik she is a strong believer in gender identity ideology and the politics that go with it (as opposed to the people who toe the line because they have a career to protect).
               • weka …

                 3 February 2024 at 3:37 pm

                 your issue-de-jour?

                 Not sure if you mean it this way, but when you talk about GCF in that way, it comes across as minimising. It's not my issue du jour. It's the most important political issue of our time after climate/ecology. Whole swathes of women have abandoned the left over it, and it's been going on for decades, but particularly the last decade.

                 I've been writing about GCF on TS since 2020. I've been involved in the debate on twitter since 2018, often substantially. I've lost a big chunk of political engagement (blocked on twitter, NRT no longer allows his blog posts to be cross-posted) because of my beliefs. I've gotten off pretty lightly. Many women have lost jobs, careers, friends and family, been arrested and abused. There are many women who've been working hard on this for a decade, others for longer. Some GCFs believe the political work on this will be decades long.

                 So please don't treat this as some passing/short lived trend.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   3 February 2024 at 5:02 pm

                   Issue-de-jour was careless, I meant, the issue that consumes so much of your energy. I didn't mean it was a passing phase for you.

                   "It's the most important political issue of our time after climate/ecology."

                   Is it?

                   If we f*ck up the the climate response, is that on par with getting the "what is a woman" debate wrong?

                   Will we all burn in hell? 🙂
                   • Dennis Frank …

                     3 February 2024 at 5:18 pm

                     Huh. Mainstreamers fucked up the collective climate response more than 20 years ago, definitively. As for discrimination against women, it depends on how many feel they are victims of that. The potential number is huge, the actual number small, I suspect…
                   • weka []

                     3 February 2024 at 6:43 pm

                     As for discrimination against women, it depends on how many feel they are victims of that. The potential number is huge, the actual number small, I suspect…

                     One in four women are sexually assaulted by a man. How many of those women are actual victims of male violence against women and how many just feel like they are?

                     Women still get paid less than men. How many are actually paid less compared to how many just feel like they are?
                   • weka …

                     3 February 2024 at 6:36 pm

                     Will we all burn in hell? 🙂

                     Just the women initially. Been there, done that. It's part of why we're destroying the planet.

                     Not respecting women and not respecting nature are the same thing.
   • weka 3.2

     3 February 2024 at 8:30 am

     I don't think Swarbrick's message is subliminal, it's overt.
   • Mike the Lefty 3.3

     3 February 2024 at 8:42 am

     Chloe has lofty aims to make the Greens the largest left wing party in NZ. People can laugh and say she is unrealistic, but look at what happened in Germany?

     Die Grunen (The Greens) have 118 seats in the German lower house and are part of the coalition government. They also part of the coalition governments in 10 out of 16 states. They have formed coalition state governments even with the conservative CDU/CSU party and won seats in ultra-conservative Bavaria. They are no longer written off as a loony left opposition fringe party – they are an alternative government.

     With organisation, support and of course money, it is possible and Chloe might just be the person to lead it forward into a new era.
     • Robert Guyton 3.3.1

       3 February 2024 at 8:49 am

       At the same time, Chloe must counter Brooke.
       • Kat 3.3.1.1

         3 February 2024 at 12:06 pm

         Chloe: "I raise you three hundred cycle lanes to your pittance of a minimum wage increase….."
     • Chess Player 3.3.2

       3 February 2024 at 2:26 pm

       Slightly different situation in Germany however, as they also have a separate Left party that is where a good portion of the NZ Greens would naturally fit, being hard core Socialists or even further Left than that.

       Having that segment in a separate party makes it easier for the German Greens to go into coalition with parties right across the political spectrum as they are not viewed as anywhere near as loony-left as the NZ Greens are viewed, given the environmentalists and the Socialist are all lumped in together.

       NZ Greens have relied on the votes of the hard Left since foundation, so I can't see the NZ Greens fracturing in a hurry.

       I think if Swarbrick can stabilise the Greens now and achieve the same level of success at the next election, say 15 MPs, then that will provide a solid base to work from. Their growth is only going to come by further cannibalising Labour and by attracting a higher proportion of first time/younger voters than the other parties, and that will take time.

       Becoming the largest left wing party in NZ is a good goal for the party I guess but it won't change much in NZ if they still can't get control of the parliament so they can effect the changes they want. Hard to get that control if the only partner you will go into coalition with is the same party you have been cannibalising…
       • Dennis Frank 3.3.2.1

         3 February 2024 at 3:07 pm

         I agree with your analysis – however their leftist zero-sum thinking re Labour has been self-imposed handicap for so long now it seems unrealistic to expect them to wake up & smell the roses. They could proceed to a convergence with Labour instead if both parties adopt resilience as their basis for a new economy.

         Cynics will point out that both parties contain too many morons to enable that to happen but I remain optimistic despite such realism!
   • mikesh 3.4

     3 February 2024 at 11:00 am

     Tinkering is cool, the top tinker (sic) believes.

     A tinker a mender of pots and pans. Don't you mean "tinkerer".
     • Dennis Frank 3.4.1

       3 February 2024 at 11:05 am

       Play on words often hews to tradition. I was just using her framing. Some users of language prefer contemporary usage but we need not do the binary either/or on language use. Notice that I didn't use the antique verb origin (tink).
       • Kat 3.4.1.1

         3 February 2024 at 11:56 am

         Labours new election slogan for 2026…..NO TINKER WE TAYLOR….
   • Muttonbird 3.5

     3 February 2024 at 1:42 pm

     I don't think Chloe Swarbrick's message was particularly helpful. There's probably a number of ways to press the importance of change without ridiculing your political partner.

     Note Hipkins’ response was far more measured and respectful. Best to keep the fire and brimstone for the actual opposition.
     • weka 3.5.1

       3 February 2024 at 2:32 pm

       who did she ridicule?
   • Anne 3.6

     3 February 2024 at 7:37 pm

     He's talking in code. Translation: Labour must represent those who don't want "to confront the challenges of our time". Tinkering is cool, the top tinker believes.

     Absolute bullshit. That is not the full quote. I saw him on TV1 news tonight and his response was eminently sensible. He was not aiming any broadside at the Greens. In fact he sent a message of good will to them.

     The video is not up on their site yet.
4. Dennis Frank 4

   3 February 2024 at 9:51 am

   Diddums?

   The Chinese Ambassador to New Zealand is lashing out at what he believes are a lack of alternative transport options after his flight out of Wellington was cancelled. Wang Xiaolong said on X China has "high-speed trains" which he was "really missing". https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/02/chinese-ambassador-to-new-zealand-wang-xiaolong-lashes-out-at-lack-of-alternatives-after-flight-cancelled.html

   Looks more like msm trying to escalate hostility between NZ & China!

   The cancellation of Air New Zealand service NZ0448 from Wellington bound for Auckland on Friday, as strong winds battered the capital, meant Wang was "stuck" and "clueless as to what to do due to the cancellation of my flight to Auckland and the lack of alternatives", he said.

   Get used to it, lad. The windy city often does this. Getting high often defuses mental states of cluelessness. You mean the airline still isn't offering such a useful alternative??

   Others noted there was an overnight bus from Wellington to Auckland, although that might not have been much help for Wang – given the service departed at 7pm, not long after he posted his tweet.

   Yeah, he's right to wish for a high-speed rail option. You only need to figure out the time the bus takes to reach Ak to agree with him. Cue a brain-wave: Belt & Road is usable as policy basis for offering to build such infrastructure into 3rd-world countries like ours.
5. Robert Guyton 5

   3 February 2024 at 10:35 am

   Michael Leunig captures the moment.

   https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=405723482125404&set=a.163598666337888
   • Grey Area 5.1

     3 February 2024 at 12:13 pm

     Thanks, Robert. I love Michael Leunig but hadn't seen anything of his lately. Spurred me to visit his website and scroll through his recent cartoons.

     I liked his Interview With God.

     Another announcing new technology which recycles used plastic bags into politicians caused a chuckle.
6. Dennis Frank 6

   3 February 2024 at 10:50 am

   James presents a triad to Newsroom:

   There are three things, he says. There’s the Zero Carbon Act and the institutions that are associated with that, providing an overall framework. There’s the “massive package” of Emissions Trading Scheme reforms, which will probably be the biggest single difference.

   “The third thing is something that is kind of nerdy and that very few people pay attention to is climate-related financial disclosures,” he says. “That is, fundamentally, the economics of climate change at the level of individual businesses. You can see already, only in the first reporting year, that it is really starting to make a difference to the way that businesses think about their emissions and their supply chain and so on.”

   https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/02/02/world-has-already-passed-1-5c-threshold-james-shaw-says/

   Three usually creates process, so this governance triad is likely to embed, and will therefore become an effective legacy for him.
7. Bryan Dods 7

   3 February 2024 at 12:14 pm

   "this governance triad"

   is the result of their governance a triasco?
   • Dennis Frank 7.1

     3 February 2024 at 2:04 pm

     If there's any obvious flaw in the design of what James produced, it'll be up to our new govt to rectify it…
8. Gosman 8

   3 February 2024 at 2:28 pm

   Good to see Argentina taking the first steps to rectify the damaging effects of Big Government interventionist economic policies (implemented from both the left and right wing of Argentinian politics).

   Argentina is just another example of how these sorts of Government knows best and can drive economic growth policies do real long term structural harm to a country. Left wingers who promote these ideas tend to ignore the evidence of failure from real World outcomes.

   https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/no-obstacle-argentina-mega-reform-bill-congress-government-says-2024-01-30/
   • Dennis Frank 8.1

     3 February 2024 at 3:13 pm

     Austerity usually isn't popular but if the IMF estimate is validated by performance – "expected economic contraction estimated by the IMF at 2.8%" – it may succeed.
     • Gosman 8.1.1

       3 February 2024 at 3:24 pm

       The country is on the verge of a massive default in debt with inflation rate over 200%. I think to get out of that self-inflicted mess requires some short term pain. Remember it is the policies of previous governments of Argentina that caused the mess they are in now not the policies being proposed by the new one.
9. Jilly Bee 9

   3 February 2024 at 3:02 pm

   A very interesting read today in the Herald (yes, I confess I subscribe). I like Mary Holm's no nonsence advice on money matters. Today a letter to her asked 'I find it appalling and upsetting that many people seek your advice on how to beat the tax man.' She basically agreed with the tone of the letter and went on to say that if people do ask how to dodge paying their fair share of tax, she tells them politely where to go. Of course the comments after the various letters received and answered went along the usual lines of Granny Herald commenters – 'it's all the Labour Government's fault'. To this long time Labour voter – yes I've kept the faith since my first vote in 1966 – tax evasion and avoidance (both equally as bad as each other IMHO), is a no no with me and those idiots who do get caught rorting the system deserve all that is dished up to them. I'll include the link, though it is paywalled https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/why-dodging-the-tax-dept-could-backfire-on-you-mary-holm/ZHMVV4KLSJGRFGUDEN4DF3B3BI/
10. Gosman 10

    3 February 2024 at 3:32 pm

    Stuff has done a fascinating analysis of the core Public service in NZ and it's massive growth over the past 6 years under the last Labour led government.

    I challenge any left leaning person to explain why we still have a need for over 9,400 "Information Professionals" (i.e. mostly Coms people) since the end of the significant public health risks from Covid-19. The growth in this area under Labour was in the region of 90%. How is the average New Zealander getting better value from their interaction with the Public service as a result of all these extra PR and Coms roles?

    This is a major factor in why people got sick of Labour and voted for change last October.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350164796/heres-what-our-63000-public-servants-actually-do-and-why-we-have-so-many-them-now
    • Gosman 10.1

      3 February 2024 at 3:36 pm

      The Public service spends huge amounts of taxpayers money on IT projects. The point of which should be to improve the efficiency of the Public service (i.e. better service with the same or less resources). However instead of requiring less people we have much, much more. Where are the better services that we are getting as a result? Can people name me an area of the Public service that has improved significantly in the past 6 years as a result of IT spending?
      • Descendant Of Smith 10.1.1

        3 February 2024 at 4:43 pm

        "and indeed Inland Revenue actually reduced its contact centre staff significantly as a big IT upgrade allowed it to handle more things online."

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350164796/heres-what-our-63000-public-servants-actually-do-and-why-we-have-so-many-them-now
    • Gosman 10.2

      3 February 2024 at 3:41 pm

      How come we have had a massive increase in staffing in the Social Welfare agencies at a time when Unemployment has fallen to lows not seen since the 1960’s? Shouldn't we require less people in this area now considering we have less people to provide support to?
      • weka 10.2.1

        3 February 2024 at 3:58 pm

        Please provide the figures for massive increase in SW staffing, and unemployment in recent times compared to the 60s. You're in premod until that happens.
        • Chess Player 10.2.1.1

          3 February 2024 at 7:11 pm

          Wouldn't it be nice if our government produced a scorecard that monitored core KPIs on its own performance?

          That way everyone who paid taxes could have confidence (or otherwise) in the performance of our elected (and non elected) administrators.

          But the turkeys aren't going to vote for Xmas are they…
        • Gosman 10.2.1.2

          3 February 2024 at 9:22 pm

          Why do I have to provide data on SW staffing levels in the 1960's? I'm not comparing staffing levels front the 1960's to today. I'm stating unemployment has fallen to levels not seen SINCE then so you SHOULD see recent trends in Social welfare staff falling not INCREASING conpared to when they were higher (i.e 7 or 8 years ago)

          If the staffing levels were increased due to Covid for an entire budget period then that also is the fault of the Labour led government. This was an emergency period and any increased staff should have been on temporary or fixed term contracts of 2 years maximum. What are these staff doing now given we have stopped Covid payments?

          [reread my comment, because you’ve obviously misunderstood. The comma is a clue. I know what you are stating, and I’m telling you as a moderator to produce some evidence for your claims. You make arguments like this a lot that are big assertions without substance. In this case I think your premise is entirely faulty, which is why I’m asking you to produce the evidence so we can examine it.

          The claims you made that need evidence:

          1. We have had a massive increase in staffing in the Social Welfare agencies in recent times (and please clarify the time frame)
          2. Unemployment has fallen to lows not seen since the 1960’s

          Please provide evidence for both of those things. – weka]
          • Gosman 10.2.1.2.1

            4 February 2024 at 12:59 pm

            I provided you a link to a Stuff article which details the increase in staffing in these agencies over the past few years (i.e. the period in time I am referring to). Please explain why this is not good enough as evidence for you?

            As for the 1960’s claim – fair enough I apologise for using the 1960’s as a baseline. The official unemplyment rate as measured by the HLFS only stretches back to 1986 so it would be more accurate to state it is the lowest since modern reporting on unemployment started i.e. the lowest on record.
            • weka 10.2.1.2.1.1

              4 February 2024 at 1:04 pm

              Evidence here is the following for each claim you made. Plus clarifying the timeframe on the first:

              1. an explanation in your own words
              2. supporting quotes
              3. links to the quotes

              Moderators aren’t going to read an article to parse what you mean.

              The rationale for all this is to increase the standard of debate. I already explained the problem with your original comment.
              • Gosman …

                5 February 2024 at 7:29 am

                Claim:

                -We have had a massive increase in staffing in the Social Welfare agencies in recent times (and please clarify the time frame).

                The timeframe in question is from Labour's time in office (i.e. from 2017 to 2023). An increase in numbers of a third over such a short period of time is very large. In comparison the total population of NZ till the end of last year only grew by less than ten percent

                Population in 2017 divided by population in 2023 :

                https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/national-population-estimates-at-30-june-2017

                https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/national-population-estimates-at-30-june-2023/

                "MSD, the second-largest organisation, grew by a more hefty 33%. Most of this growth was in social workers and contact centre workers."

                https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350164796/heres-what-our-63000-public-servants-actually-do-and-why-we-have-so-many-them-now

                ​​​​​​​Claim:

                – Unemployment has fallen to lows not seen since the 1960’s

                As stated this should more accurately have stated the unemployment rate has falled to levels not seen since modern record keeping began.

                "Unemployment fell in the December quarter to 3.2 per cent, the lowest since modern records began in 1986."

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/unemployment-lowest-since-1986-falls-to-32-per-cent/YCIAG7QWZH3KBAYZAOJHE3FA6A/
                • weka …

                  5 February 2024 at 9:15 am

                  thank-you Gosman. That’s perfect, and a really good example of how to back up one’s argument. Out of premod now.
      • Descendant Of Smith 10.2.2

        3 February 2024 at 4:40 pm

        Off the top of my head in the 60's there wasn't the massive, massive subsidy to landlords by way of accommodation supplement, benefits were paid at the same rate as the pension so people didn't have to keep applying for hardship payments, sole parents like my grandmother who left a violent relationship got nothing unless they were a widow, all the benefit was paid to the husband for couples, sick people were left alone to be sick and get better and had doctors and hospitals in their little towns, the welfare system in most towns was a job in the public service esp all those injured war veterans who also had good support through the rehab leagues set up around the country to help them get back to work, unwell were locked up in mental institution, while those with intellectual disabilities were locked up in their own institutions, 51,000 people were getting war pensions in 1965 and 116,000 superannuation (compared to 898,000 getting superannuation now). It was also run as a bureaucracy i.e. rules based where either you qualified for help or not and that was that. You aren't comparing apples with apples and your comparison is quite facile.

        Puao-Te-Ata-Tu is the only good source I've found that shows staff numbers albeit in 1988. 6,268. This would not have included the Labour department staff who were a separate department and didn't merge til about 1998.

        https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/archive/1988-puaoteatatu.pdf

        Stuff article has MSD staff at 9,077. but notes extra were taken on to do COVID payments, etc. They were likely funded for a full budget cycle so presumably will drop off at the end of it as is the normal budget / funding process.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350164796/heres-what-our-63000-public-servants-actually-do-and-why-we-have-so-many-them-now
      • Descendant Of Smith 10.2.3

        3 February 2024 at 5:34 pm

        Also a fall in the unemployment rate doesn't necessarily mean a fall in benefit numbers.

        It is a maths puzzle.

        Number of jobs increase so labour market is larger. Immigrants come into NZ and do those jobs. Number of NZer's unemployed stays the same. Unemployment rate drops as while the number unemployed is the same it is now a smaller proportion of a larger labour market.

        With the massive increase in immigration in the last couple of years combined with people working longer to make ends meet there is an increasing disconnect between the two things.

        Looking at stats info – in 1999 there were 18,000 over 65 year olds in the workforce. There is now 118,000. That is also impacting on freeing up jobs for young people.

        https://infoshare.stats.govt.nz/ViewTable.aspx?pxID=659101e7-c4ff-4caa-a281-41a4e44779fa
    • Dennis Frank 10.3

      3 February 2024 at 3:49 pm

      Definitely gonzo, loved the multi-colour graphic showing how tiny the health spend is compared to the biggies – no wonder the hospitals are in perpetual crisis. Kindness??

      that in National’s last year of power in 2016/17 it spent $550m on consultants, or about twice what had been spent in the 2008/09 year.

      The problem for Labour is that, even without the public servant cap, its government spent $1.2b on consultants in 2023. So it roughly doubled the consultant-spend – albeit under a more inclusive measure – while also increasing the number of public servants substantially.

      Labour's creation of a supersized gravy train for consultants will be the envy of Nat supporters everywhere!! All Hipkins needs to do to guarantee himself a knighthood in the next honours list is to say "Hey, I did that!" It will help if he explains that it was a carefully-orchestrated directive campaign behind the scenes, so as to reassure the Nats that they really are on the same side.
      • Jilly Bee 10.3.1

        3 February 2024 at 7:30 pm

        Really –
11. Brett Dale 11

    3 February 2024 at 4:45 pm

    For the first time, I'm worried about violence this Waitangi day. Its going to take real leadership from both sides to make this a peaceful day.
12. Stephen D 12

    3 February 2024 at 4:49 pm

    Pablo has an interesting take on our new “government.”

    https://www.kiwipolitico.com/2024/02/the-new-zealand-junta/

    ”Another thing about the new government is its utter disdain for the public. Polls only mattered in the election campaign but now are ignored. Fighting crime was a priority before the election, then it was not. It did not reveal its full coalition agenda during the campaign and did not consult with other parties or the public in the implementation of its first 100 day plan of action. Instead, the coalition has rewarded its donors and supporters in (among others) the fossil fuel and tobacco industries even though their repeal policies are unpopular and in some instances detrimental to public health, environmental and other social outcomes. This is truly a government for and by the few, even if it was able to claim an electoral victory as its legitimating mantle.

    For this reason I prefer not to call them something silly like the “coalition of chaos.” They are that, to be sure, because to put it kindly the talent pool in the coalition parties runs very thin while the egos of their leaders and lieutenants run very deep. This could eventually lead to their collapse and downfall, but for the moment what strikes me is their despotic dispositions. In other words, it is their way or the highway, minus the resort to repression that we see in military dictatorships.

    For this reason I choose to refer to the National-ACT-NZ First triumvirate as New Zealand’s junta. In the broadest and original sense, junta refers to a military or political group ruling the country after it has been taken over. Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines it as “a council or committee for political or governmental purposes.” What is important is that it does not always have to have a military component and it does not always involve a violent accession to power and usurpation of previous authority. A junta, as it turns out, can be installed constitutionally, peacefully and via normal political institutions and procedures.”
13. Tabletennis 13

    3 February 2024 at 5:57 pm

    The NZ Midwifery Council's controversial changes to their Scope of Practice
    2 Feb 2024 Interview with Deb Hayes, a practising midwife – the petition organiser
    

    New Zealand's Midwifery Council has spent four years devising new guidelines which have taken out the words 'mother' and 'baby', and replaced them with the word 'whanau', a word which in te reo Māori means 'family', including extended family. Deb Hayes, a practising midwife, has been instrumental in initiating a Parliamentary Petition against the change of language in the NZ Midwifery Council's Scope of Practice guidelines.
    The petition, hosted on the Women's Rights Party NZ website, can be signed here – https://womensrightsparty.nz/midwifer…
    or, go direct to it here: https://petitions.parliament.nz/6e261…
    • Chess Player 13.1

      3 February 2024 at 7:02 pm

      I don't care whether they use the words 'mother' or 'baby' or 'gestational vessel' or 'whanau' I just want people to stop having kids they don't want, having kids they won't support, or killing their kids.
      • KJT 13.1.1

        3 February 2024 at 7:29 pm

        I take it that you are not a supporter of the current Government then?

        As their mean spirited welfare, wage, health, environmental and infrastructure policies are going to result in killing and/or, blighting, the lives of many thousands more children.
        • Chess Player 13.1.1.1

          3 February 2024 at 7:45 pm

          No I'm not, but link please?
          • weka 13.1.1.1.1

            3 February 2024 at 8:41 pm

            National, ACT and NZF policies were well canvassed during the recent general election, you can look those up yourself pretty easily.
14. Kat 14

    3 February 2024 at 7:55 pm

    Luxon is an ex PM walking……….just trying to find the link…..
15. SPC 15

    3 February 2024 at 11:42 pm

    Now that Luxon has a Maori alter ego to be his shadow at the marae, it's time to move onto puns about the blind man and his seeing eye dog chum Potaka wandering around Waitangi together.

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