Open mike 03/06/2023

39 comments on “Open mike 03/06/2023 ”

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1. bwaghorn 1

   3 June 2023 at 7:22 am

   https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/300894604/budlighting-the-cancellation-campaign-coming-for-a-company-near-you

   How hate operates in the modern world,
   • tsmithfield 1.1

     3 June 2023 at 9:00 am

     I don't know if you see the irony in this. With recent speakers to NZ being cancelled by protests from those on the side of the fence. Now those who were leading the charge in cancelling speech they didn’t like are now likely incensed by the approach of those who are of a conspiratorial bent who are attempting to do the same.

     The reason we need to stand up for free speech. Eventually, behaviour to cancel the speech of someone we don't like will turn back on us, and we will be on the end of being cancelled.
     • bwaghorn 1.1.1

       3 June 2023 at 10:53 am

       I'm definitely a free speech defender, better out in the sunlight where we can see it. Imho.
       • tsmithfield 1.1.1.1

         3 June 2023 at 12:03 pm

         I totally agree.
   • Visubversa 1.2

     3 June 2023 at 9:40 am

     It is not "hate" for people to disapprove of Dylan Mulvaney performing "womanface" sexist stereotypes for fun and profit.

     It is not "hate" to object to the marketing of swimsuits for boy children who have been encouraged (often by homophobic parents) to "identify" as girls and tuck away their penis and testicles to deny their bodily reality.

     It is not "hate " for same sex attracted people to object to an ideology which denies the very existence of same sex attraction and tells us that we should relearn our sexuality.

     And New Zealand's "Pride Month" is in February. This present shit show is just another example of American commercial and cultural imperialism.
     • tWiggle 1.2.1

       3 June 2023 at 4:38 pm

       It IS hate to associate clothes printed with rainbows with paedophilia. Homosexuality and being transgender or nonbinary is legal in New Zealand, and is not paedophilia. Support for a rainbow youth charity is not paedophilia, when teenagers are the very people who need high quality information and support if they are outside of straight categories.

       Chantelle Baker doesn't just complain to the manager, she spreads her messaging on her media platform, without oversight such as the Media Council.

       Freedom of speech is not freedom of lies.
       • weka 1.2.1.1

         3 June 2023 at 5:30 pm

         what do you propose then? Because while I agree with you that rainbow branding =/= paedophilia, and that Baker etc are a serious problem, I don't see any constructive solutions from liberals.

         There are connections between MAP, PIE and queer culture. Liberals including within the rainbow communities won't talk about that and the intentional dismantling of boundaries and transgression of norms.

         The mainstream will eventually put up a block to that (as we're seeing with gender identity ideology), and in the meantime a big chunk of the left has ceded the ground to Baker and her conspiracy colleagues. Who pick up an aspect of truth and turn it into something monstrous. That's dangerous and all the liberals seem to be able to do is talk about restricting freedoms and ostracise those it disagrees with, which simply adds fuel to the fire.

         There are more people that disagree with us than agree with us, and the right are far better resourced. We cannot force people to be progressive, because most people recognise authoritarianism. We need way better strategies.
         • tWiggle 1.2.1.1.1

           3 June 2023 at 7:55 pm

           I believe it is always important to challenge lies and factless emotive language; 'freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism'. I have been calling out bullshit since a teenager.

           To quote this article 'anti-trans rhetoric became a focal point for far-right and conspiracy theory online groups around the time of Posie Parker’s visit to New Zealand…focusing on the period between March 18 to mid-April 2023, The Disinformation Project…found “a measurable increase in hate and harm directed towards trans people”.'

           '[The report] describes anti-trans rhetoric becoming the “motivational narrative” of online groups that had initially formed to share and perpetuate false beliefs about Covid-19 and the Covid vaccine in 2020. It labels this the “Parker effect”.'

           The Posie Parker who calls trans women sexual deviants and links them directly to paedophilia.

           This ties in with pointing out the fellow-travellers of anti-trans messaging. 'Hate and harm' is the key phrase. Baker is a key CT social media performer, and is now a show host on the privately-funded Reality Radio network.

           NZ CT-pushing influencers, including Chantelle, switch their 'motivational narrative' from anti-Jacinda to pro-Putin to anti-trans to anti-rainbow literally from one day to the next. I have seen it with my own eyes. It's not because they know any facts about these narratives, but because they are being fed lines (and lies).

           This PP and far-right association of paedophilia and grooming with the NZ trans community is the most pernicious and the most harmful of attacks on that community, and needs to be continually challenged. And notice how the field of fire is widening from trans to rainbow.
           • weka 1.2.1.1.1.1

             3 June 2023 at 10:29 pm

             The Posie Parker who calls trans women sexual deviants and links them directly to paedophilia.

             Please provide direct evidence of this so we know what you are referring to.
           • weka 1.2.1.1.1.2

             3 June 2023 at 10:38 pm

             One of the links between the VFF crowd and KJK is the politics of women's spaces. Did the Disinformation Project talk about that, and how many women in those alt communities value women's space and culture?

             My guess is that TDP people believe that saying trans women are male is hate speech, so until someone puts up the direct evidence it's hard to know what they are talking about. I have little doubt that there has been an increase in hate towards trans people. We also know that the far right are manipulating those communities. But those aren't the only thing going on and liberals ignore this at our peril.

             The women that value women's culture also have strong feelings about protecting children (as do the men in those subcultures). Baker is an easy target because she is so out there, but it's the much larger body of women we need to be thinking about. As I said, you cannot force people to become progressive. And their fears, while blown out of proportion, aren't not wholly unsubstantiated. Why did you ignore this in my comment?

             The backlash against trans people was predicted a long time ago by left wing GC people, myself included. You can call out the bullshit, we should all do this. But you have to be able to recognise the limits of this, and we are hard up against that now. If the left won't protect children and maintain women's space/culture, the right will and it will not be in a good way.
             • left for dead …

               4 June 2023 at 8:27 am

               ,well stated,way better than I could've. But I must say we are going over the same talking points,keep up the good fight weka
       • Stuart Munro 1.2.1.2

         3 June 2023 at 9:33 pm

         It IS hate to associate clothes printed with rainbows with paedophilia.

         Is that a fact? The connection is weak, but real. It is weak because commercial entities in search of the pink dollar are omnivorously exploitive – their only link to LGBT & whatever in this instance is symbolic.

         But pretending that there is no relation between these and paedophilia ignores a considerable body of research.

         The various gendered communities have arrogantly offended the greater public with their increasingly strident, irrational, and ill-founded demands. If that results in some push back against the symbols of their activism it should elicit no surprise.
         • weka 1.2.1.2.1

           3 June 2023 at 10:24 pm

           Someone would need to fact check those sources. Because that letter says,

           For instance, Alfred Kinsey, the sex researcher and gay activist, found in 1948 that 37% of all gay men admitted to having sex with children under 17 years of age.

           How many heterosexual men have had sex with women under 17? When they themselves were teens. Is an 18 year old man having sex with a 16 year old youth committing child sex abuse? The letter seems moralistic.

           We also need to consider the age of consent in different countries.
           • Stuart Munro 1.2.1.2.1.1

             4 June 2023 at 2:26 pm

             Oh I agree – but I expect that there are multiple sources available, and notice that tWiggle has not been moved to produce any to validate his or her assertions.

             This is characteristic of the gender identity arguments – not fact based – make claims about hate speech – rest heavily on ad homs.

             There seem to be increasing numbers of robust academics coming out against the predominant trans activist assertions.
   • Visubversa 1.3

     3 June 2023 at 10:17 am

     Today's Pride is no place for homosexuals.

     "Pride used to be a riot, an opportunity to commemorate our achievements since the Stonewall Inn uprising, and shout about the equalities we still had to fight for. Now it’s a bloated month of pinkwashed flummery, of re-imagined company logos, empty sloganeering and corporate parade float sponsorships — and it’s a drag."

     https://unherd.com/2023/06/pride-is-no-place-for-homosexuals/?fbclid=IwAR2QbY3gC07WDZlCRcdDgHua4Ym_M9vxl9I6BoC6R8-uOAyuirmwBhJwo4Y
     • bwaghorn 1.3.1

       3 June 2023 at 10:51 am

       Don't forget political opportunities 😉
2. bwaghorn 2

   3 June 2023 at 7:39 am

   https://i.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300895583/janet-wilson-when-politics-becomes-too-messy-its-time-to-lean-into-the-stoics

   If you judge you must investigate!

   Aim to be stoic in the face of the election heading our way.
   • miravox 2.1

     3 June 2023 at 8:21 pm

     She's not wrong.

     Generally I'd be wary of Janet Wilson, but this piece gels with me. Especially the bits about political trivia – disentangle human mistakes (we all make them) from what's of greater importance.

     Easier said than done though.

     Because being a Stoic means that while you may detach yourself from the heat of political trivia, you still must actively participate in civic life. You don’t get a leave pass on your democratic obligations, or, as Holiday puts it, you don’t get to not care.
3. tWiggle 3

   3 June 2023 at 9:31 am

   You have to laugh…
4. Bearded Git 4

   3 June 2023 at 9:35 am

   Malpass gives the impression that he is being even-handed but always seems to miss out key facts on purpose.

   In this article he doesn't explain that it was Kerekere that was a prime mover behind the attempt to roll Shaw. And he selectively quotes polling without mentioning the Greens polling 12% in the latest Roy Morgan released 30 May.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132218116/where-is-the-green-party-at-for-the-upcoming-election-campaign

   https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/9262-nz-national-voting-intention-may-2023
   • Patricia Bremner 4.1

     3 June 2023 at 11:13 am

     Yes Luke Malpass has taken a page from Bryce!!
   • weka 4.2

     3 June 2023 at 12:51 pm

     I thought what he wrote was damning enough about EK. He can't put the whole story in because it's not what the piece is about and it would make it too long. RM is known to overestimate the Green vote so I'm not surprised he ignored it. I thought the piece was useful in explaining to the mainstream where the GP is at going into the election campaign. Not a lot there for strong GP supporters though.
     • Bearded Git 4.2.1

       3 June 2023 at 6:03 pm

       Agree he gave EK a much deserved bad rap, but having addressed her demise I still think he should have pointed to the solidity of Shaw's position now that she has gone rather than hinting he could be rolled at the next Green AGM.

       While RM may overstate the Greens vote (or maybe not-help Swordfish?) I would have thought this would only be by a couple of percentage points which would mean 10% not the 7-8% Malpass talks of.
5. Sanctuary 5

   3 June 2023 at 10:02 am

   Suffocating negativity and rampant defeatism is out of control in the MSM at the moment.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/132194320/labours-327-million-climate-policy-that-will-save-little-carbon
   • bwaghorn 5.1

     3 June 2023 at 11:14 am

     Typical low bro reporting ,start with anger inducing headline, reinforce it with negative first para or 2, hide mitigating facts, ie this one is designed to kill 2 birds with one stone, cc, and cost of living, in last bit that most don't read to.
6. PsyclingLeft.Always 6

   3 June 2023 at 10:38 am

   Christopher Luxon proves to be a traffic-stopper in New Plymouth

   Hundreds of largely Pākehā aged 60-plus turned out to hear the National Party leader outline his vision for the country's future.

   There was bumper to bumper traffic outside the Plymouth Hotel as Luxon's roadshow rolled into town.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/491237/christopher-luxon-proves-to-be-a-traffic-stopper-in-new-plymouth

   Well….no shit. Thats the Nats voter base. (who will actually vote)

   We.. need to Activate our young NZers. IMO particularly the new apprentices who have a future now. Thanks to Labour. Prob many more.

   also…the Green party..whose demise was being broadcast (incl on here) , are unsurprisingly..not so much at deaths door.

   https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/9262-nz-national-voting-intention-may-2023

   I am optimistic that Nact will be defeated : )
7. Stephen D 7

   3 June 2023 at 12:04 pm

   A Call to Arms

   This election is going to be excruciatingly close.

   The damage a NACT government could do will be on a par with 1991.

   It behoves every left of centre reader and commentator here to do everything they can to ensure a centre left/left government returns to power.

   It doesn’t matter if you’re Green, Labour or Te Pati Māori get involved. If you aren’t already.

   Contact your local LEC. They all are needing phone canvassers, door knockers, and fundraisers. Every body helps.

   Every vote is going to count.
8. tWiggle 8

   3 June 2023 at 12:21 pm

   Update on AI drone simulation 'killing operator' story which turns out to be a thought experiment

   ' According to the blogpost, Hamilton had told the crowd that in a simulation to test a drone powered by artificial intelligence and trained and incentivized to kill its targets, an operator instructed the drone in some cases not to kill its targets and the drone had responded by killing the operator…The Royal Aeronautical Society responded in a statement on Friday that Hamilton had retracted his comments and had clarified that the “rogue AI drone simulation” was a hypothetical “thought experiment”.

   ' “We’ve never run that experiment, nor would we need to in order to realise that this is a plausible outcome,”…“You can’t have a conversation about artificial intelligence, intelligence, machine learning, autonomy if you’re not going to talk about ethics and AI,” Hamilton said.'
   • joe90 8.1

     3 June 2023 at 1:38 pm

     “Slaughterbots”

     In a dystopian world a new form of A.I. weaponry has been created. All these drone bots need is a profile: age, sex, fitness, uniform, and ethnicity. Nuclear is obsolete. Take out your entire enemy virtually risk free. Just characterize him, release the swarm, and rest easy.

     https://www.youtube.com/@watchdust
     • tWiggle 8.1.1

       3 June 2023 at 1:54 pm

       Both Iran and Türkiye have been using drones extensively against Kurdish independence fighters for the past 2-3 years. This Guardian article from 2021 gives an in-depth account of how drone warfare is carried out in isolated areas to control Kurd partisans. No hiding in tne woods or up the mountains anymore.
       • joe90 8.1.1.1

         3 June 2023 at 2:06 pm

         Changing the world.

         .

         The war in Ukraine has seen huge exploitation of commercial off the shelf (COTS) equipment for military means. “Ukrainians are achieving some spectacular success with a bunch of civilian technology that can be bought from anywhere between Amazon and Ali Baba” said Clarke. “There are examples of Ukrainian forces working with enthusiast drone operators and even tasking a 14-year old with a DJI Mavic to scout out a column of the tanks. Other examples have included a vigilante SIGINT operator in the form of a guy who’s got a software defined radio that listens to Russian radio communications, find out the frequency and posts it on Twitter so that the military can use it. That is spanning that whole multi domain space – from the protect and engage to warfighting.”

         “Things like the DJI Mavic offer a brilliant capability,” he continued. “I can go to Amazon and buy 30 of them for less than the cost of buying one of the Black Hornets UAVs used by many militaries.

         https://www.aerosociety.com/news/highlights-from-the-raes-future-combat-air-space-capabilities-summit/
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 8.1.1.2

         3 June 2023 at 2:25 pm

         That was an interesting link, thanks. The Kurds have certainly suffered terribly for years…I remember when the USA left them to die… after promising help. Kissinger. (How did that POS get to be 100 years old?)

         And many US Presidents very similar actions.

         When questioned, a blasé Kissinger explained that “covert action should not be confused with missionary work.”

         https://theintercept.com/2019/10/07/kurds-syria-turkey-trump-betrayal/

         IMO : Terribly, with that fascist scumbag Erdogan in power again, ( I had so hoped for change: (

         The Kurds will be targets….with nowhere to hide
     • tsmithfield 8.1.2

       3 June 2023 at 2:34 pm

       It probably will be a good thing when wars start getting fought with bots vs bots. And, whoever loses just gives up because they know they are fucked.

       At least no human lives lost then. Of course, much better not to have wars at all.
   • Sanctuary 8.2

     3 June 2023 at 1:49 pm

     Thanks, you saved me the effort – the story was widely reported in the MSM and I imagine a chastened colonel Hamilton with a bit of explaining to do to his superiors…
     • tWiggle 8.2.1

       3 June 2023 at 1:58 pm

       Actually, better out than in to my thinking. It was the blogpost that misreported, not Hamilton. I think the 'misstep' did a great job in balancing all the positive AI spin saturating the media in the past weeks.
9. Belladonna 9

   3 June 2023 at 6:04 pm

   Really, does anyone believe this!
   Wayne Brown is now claiming that the emails were forwarded to Councillors in his name by council staff in a "fit of excitement"

   Is this the new "emotional junior staffer" defence?

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-mayor-wayne-brown-denies-forwarding-abusive-emails-to-councillors/WEROL6RQYVBYJKNPG44UCOUIAE/

   While I'm prepared to believe that he didn't press the 'send' button himself, he is responsible for the culture of his coms team. If he models an aggressive, combatant and frankly rude style of communication – of course his coms team will follow suit.
   • Anne 9.1

     3 June 2023 at 7:07 pm

     You beat me to it. My first thought when I saw it… the latest version of "emotional junior staffer".

     Councillor Jo Bartley's twitter feed in the link is worth a read.

     Note the headline: “Denies forwarding abusive emails”. Correct. He didn’t hit the ‘forward’ button himself. Maybe he wasn’t sure how to do it?
10. adam 10

    3 June 2023 at 8:10 pm

    Corruption. hahahahhaha

    How you feeling slave?

    If you need help with my above comment – then just remember that billionaires make the rest of us slaves.

    You have to throw off the shakes.
11. Joe90 11

    3 June 2023 at 10:40 pm

    Best someone tell Matt Taibbi beause this is as funny AF.

    @bradheath

    Twitter's lawyers told a federal court yesterday that nothing in the "Twitter Files" cited by Donald Trump actually show that the social media platform was a tool of government censorship. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.387133/gov.uscourts.cand.387133.195.0.pdf

    https://twitter.com/bradheath/status/1664634500343529472

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