Open mike 03/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 3rd, 2020 - 145 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

145 comments on “Open mike 03/07/2020 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Foreign waka 1
    3 July 2020 at 7:21 am

    Todays article about the Greens proposal of a guaranteed minimum income has been commented on by Rod Oram and I agree with him.

    I am disappointed in labour. Despite all their fanfare to focus on poverty all they produced was an increase in the minimum wage. That did nothing for the very vulnerable on the bottom of the heap depended on a benefit that is too much to die of not enough to live on. The increase was good as long as it lasted, actual food inflation measured on price increases is at 3.5% for the last 3 months but this hasn't got the fuel tax increase of recent included.

    Void of any ideas, we get to hear that the tax system is fair. Of cause it is for those who have a disproportionate slice of the pie, courtesy by the taxpayer no less.

    BTW, what ever happened to the announced reduction of wages by 20% for the parliamentarians? Lets not talk about snout in the trough shall we. They think the public has forgotten. No they didn't.

    • Incognito 1.1
      3 July 2020 at 8:20 am

      Link?

    • Anne 1.2
      3 July 2020 at 10:00 am

      …what ever happened to the announced reduction of wages by 20% for the parliamentarians?

      Sorry to disappoint you Fw, but Parliamentary Services are still processing the change. Bureaucrats like to take their time with these things. Jacinda Ardern – or someone – expressed mild frustration about two weeks ago, so imagine its started or is about to start.

      • Foreign waka 1.2.1
        3 July 2020 at 10:32 am

        Hi Anne

        They will process this as long as it takes to get it out of the collective memory. Its like the story with reducing the number of seats from 120 to 100. Yeah Right.

        Meanwhile, the Australian private "partner" skins the NZ taxpayer to get millions of our hard earned money as this government has not even read the fine print of the contract and they are now putting the dumb screws onto NZTA with the mega blow out of the Transmission gully, Water issues in Auckland that haven't been addressed for years (any political party) and they wont be the last to experience this, millions of taxpayer money syphoned by fraud from Americas cup team (IT is an issue for a millionaires cup?) and the stories keep going…

        Walking the talk BS and it does not matter where you look, no wonder people take to the streets. It maybe for isolated issues but really there is an underlying (lying?? ok pun intended) issue.

        • Foreign waka 1.2.2.1
          3 July 2020 at 3:16 pm

          Very helpful, lets see whether its implemented. People have taken a cut in hours(pay) or have lost their job since May I may point out. Meanwhile 200 000 are on a benefit.

    • Ad 1.3
      3 July 2020 at 11:36 am

      Labour:

      I Preferred Their Early Work

  2. Jester 2
    3 July 2020 at 7:33 am

    Tova on TV3 loves a scalp. I find it painful to watch her glee. She has had a great few weeks with David Clark and Simon Bridges.

    • I Feel Love 2.1
      3 July 2020 at 8:59 am

      She certainly can make a big deal out of SFA, she has a good nose for dirt.

    • CAnker the pig fucker 2.2
      3 July 2020 at 10:04 am

      This is what was achieved in health when David Clark was Minister. I wish the likes of Tova and Heather et al would inform themselves better………..this is from who is being described as an incompetent minister. And Yes I absolutely acknowledge his errors with the lockdown breach and taking ministerial responsibility

      NZ’s largest ever investment in frontline mental health services

      – Hiring 1600 new mental health workers which will result in 325,000 Kiwis a year receiving free access to improved mental health services

      – NZ’s largest ever increase to DHB funding

      – 3x the increases to health funding compared to what National delivered in 9 years

      – Significant additional funding for disability support services

      – Made GP visits $30 cheaper for 600,000 New Zealanders

      – Brought in NZ’s long overdue medicinal cannabis regulations

      – Free counselling for under 25’s

      – Expanding telehealth and digital supports for mental wellbeing

      – Delivered 80 new mental health workers in Canterbury schools (18 months earlier than promised)

      – Extended free GP visits to under 14s

      – Rolled out national bowel screening

      – Opened Suicide Prevention Office

      – Increased suicide prevention funding

      – Established a national suicide bereavement counselling fund providing free counselling for people bereaved by suicide

      – Tailored Māori and Pacific suicide prevention initiatives addressing New Zealand's persistently high suicide rates

      – An expanded family and whānau suicide prevention information service

      – More suicide prevention services in District Health Boards, including increased post-discharge support

      – An improved suicide media response service, supporting responsible discussion about suicide across all media and social media.

      – New research on improving health outcomes for Māori and Pacific peoples.

      – Increased investment to develop innovative Pacific community health initiatives

      – Established National Cancer Control Agency

      – Developed Cancer Action Plan

      – New Rheumatic fever prevention funding

      – Largest ever investment in radiation therapy

      – Extended the nurses in schools programme

      – Expansion of mental health and addiction services for offenders

      – $70 million investment for the building of mental health facilities at Hillmorton Hospital

      – Significant hospital upgrades and funding increases to capital projects

      – Fast-tracked new Dunedin hospital

      – Large funding boosts to Pharmac

      – Reimbursements for midwives working through Covid-19 response

      – Boosted air ambulance network

      – Rural locum relief for rural midwives

      – More GP training placements in rural and regional areas

      – New funding for AIDS research

      – New funding for gender reassignment surgeries

      – Strengthened NZ’s immunisation system

      – Pay increases of between 12-15.9% for nurses, midwives, practitioners, community nurses, health care assistants & hospital aides

      – Pay equity for mental health & addiction workers

      – Initiated a wide-ranging review of our health & disability services

      Would this have all happened without him? Not necessarily. He was the Associate Minister of Finance for the first 2 budgets and actively lobbied to ensure that funding was made in these areas.

      • Sacha 2.2.1
        3 July 2020 at 10:09 am

        Some of those are plans rather than results, which just plays into the opposition line about Labour's delivery. Also overplays the Minister's involvement. Just let him go.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 2.2.1.1
          3 July 2020 at 10:56 am

          If this list exaggerates health gains made during the two-and-a-half years that Dr David Clark was the Minister of Health, IMHO it's still a useful rebuttal to the frankly ludicious assertions made by some on this site that he was a do-nothing, MIA minister. Now I'll "let him go."

      • Adrian 2.2.2
        3 July 2020 at 12:27 pm

        You left out the huge job getting the hospitals up to speed and accessing new equipment for the Covid response, thats why he was keep on because he did a bloody good job there, but look over there , fuck me he's riding a bike! Yeah like 5 million other Kiwis did.

        • Just Is 2.2.2.1
          3 July 2020 at 12:43 pm

          Yep, hyperbole, deliberate character assassination.

          Disappointing to see so many yesterday putting the BOOT in cos the media says so.

      • Just Is 2.2.3
        3 July 2020 at 12:36 pm

        Thanks anker for relisting this info from yesterday, many don't want to believe he achieved anything at all, and FACTs don't matter, sounds like I'm describing a Nat MP, but many here made that decision to ignore facts and portray their own misbeliefs.

      • gsays 2.2.4
        3 July 2020 at 3:00 pm

        Hi anker, I am not taking issue with yr larger point, that Clark did get some stuff done.

        I do dispute the 12 -15.9% payrise for nurses etc. Closer to 6% over three years.

        What gives?

        • CAnker the pig fucker 2.2.4.1
          3 July 2020 at 9:12 pm

          Hi Gsays, just seen you question. To be honest, I did't compile this list. A very reliable contact of mine did. It sounds like you have some good information to say the pay rise was 6% over three years. That doesn't sound that great. I seem to remember there was a lot of toing and froing over it, so I will look into it.

          I am not wanting to be a cheerleader for David Clark as such, but I think there was a witch hunt going on and its a little unfair. Just wanted to present a balanced picture.

          Article in the Herald. today saying America are interested in hiring him

          • gsays 2.2.4.1.1
            4 July 2020 at 8:11 am

            I was really disappointed with his two lockdown breaches. I didn't buy into the bus throwing BS.

            As an aside, the NZNO is in disarray, seemingly stuck between being a union and being a professional body. And not doing either to well.

            It appears there are some high up in the Union who's loyalties lie close to the Ministry.

    • AB 2.3
      3 July 2020 at 11:57 am

      She's a grinning sadist with no apparent commitment to anything other than her own advancement.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    3 July 2020 at 7:36 am

    Unusual to see a judge advising a minister on how to do politics! The nexus where environment meets public interest and the economy will always produce allegations of bias when someone with a track record of partisan advocacy is given the power to decide who wins in a conflict situation.

    A judge has advised Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage to handover future decisions on some mining projects after being accused of bias. High Court Justice Karen Clark this week dismissed an application for a judicial review into Sage's decision to reject a new mine on conservation land on the West Coast. https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/122015419/conservation-minister-advised-to-give-up-some-mining-decisions-to-avoid-conflict-calls

    Sage and Energy and Resources Minister Megan Woods rejected Rangitira Development Ltd's application in June 2018 to mine a 12-hectare patch of conservation land at Te Kuha, near Westport.

    Justice Clark said the coal mining company had alleged Sage was biased because of her "strong voice against coal mining generally". Sage opposed the mine while employed by Forest and Bird and had drafted submissions opposing it in the 1990s.

    Since general principles are involved, this is a space to watch. Industry capture by means of lobbyists has been institutionalised in the USA for a long time and the public have been held to ransome. Now the boot's on the other foot, here.

    • Cinny 3.1
      3 July 2020 at 8:04 am

      It would be helpful if West Coasters came up with new industries rather than trying to resurrect mining.

      • Incognito 3.1.1
        3 July 2020 at 8:11 am

        Mining, milling, milking, managing, and moving. The NZ economy in a nutshell.

    • Incognito 3.2
      3 July 2020 at 8:18 am

      Unusual to see a judge advising a minister on how to do politics!

      It would have been unusual if the judge had done that. Just as well she hadn’t, eh?

      • Dennis Frank 3.2.1
        3 July 2020 at 9:14 am

        Interesting to see that there's some part of this you don't understand: "A judge has advised Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage to handover future decisions on some mining projects after being accused of bias."

        Could it be the relation between advised and advising? Third form English classes got taught they derive from the same root word when I was young – but maybe that was no longer standard practice by the time you entered college? Linguistic basics by then deemed too hard for English teachers to comprehend let alone students…

        • Sacha 3.2.1.1
          3 July 2020 at 9:59 am

          Back when I attended school in a cardboard box in middle of road, people did not even need to be taught that "a judge has advised Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage to handover future decisions on some mining projects" is not the same statement as "a judge advising a minister on how to do politics".

          One is about being a Minister, the other about being a politician. Exercising a specific regulatory authority is far narrower than 'politics' as most humans understand the term.

          Whose interests does it serve to conflate them?

        • Incognito 3.2.1.2
          3 July 2020 at 12:41 pm

          Ok, Grasshopper. This would be a good headline “Judge advises Minister on how to do politics!”. As with many headlines nowadays, they are inaccurate and misleading, often deliberately and grossly. Your view reads like a headline.

          Given that your premise is wrong, your comment becomes mostly nonsensical. My education and the foundation of my lacking language skills are not the reason for your nonsense. You are illogical.

          • Dennis Frank 3.2.1.2.1
            3 July 2020 at 1:50 pm

            Sacha's point above yours is good, since it addresses governance responsibilities – which then enables anyone else to see it as addressing a technical issue rather than being political. Rather than beating all around the bush, if you were sensing that relevance you ought to have said so. Simply pushing your subjective view of what is or is not politics achieves nothing, so long as you don't explain why you feel that the premise is wrong.

            • Incognito 3.2.1.2.1.1
              3 July 2020 at 3:09 pm

              Finally, we agree that your premise was wrong, phew! It has taken you all day for the penny to drop; Sacha @ 9:59 am got it in one. I felt you were wrong, relatively speaking, but had to overcome subjective hurdles before it could crystallise in the subconscious and come to the fore to become the idea that you could see as your own.

              • Dennis Frank …
                3 July 2020 at 3:54 pm

                Ah, not so fast to that conclusion! I don't agree my premise was wrong – I was simply acknowledging merit in Sacha's point. Thus there are two valid interpretations (corresponding to whether one prefers a wide take on politics that includes governance (the commonly-held perspective, and mine) or prefers a narrow view of it that excludes governance). Me, I've always been broadminded… 😇

                • Incognito …
                  3 July 2020 at 4:02 pm

                  Of course, you disagree! Going back to the judge, which interpretation of politics did she use in her judgement?

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    3 July 2020 at 4:06 pm

                    Sorry, can't read her mind. Even if I could, would be presumptuous to try & interpret it. Trespassing in interior worlds is uncool. 😇

                    • Incognito …
                      3 July 2020 at 4:17 pm

                      How come you now are noncommittal and evasive? You enthusiastically asserted that the judge had advised the Minister how to do politics @ 3. Were you projecting again? Or simply trying to squeeze conform her advice into your own narrow but valid interpretation of politics without governance? Not a good verdict by the learned judge if it is open to such wide range of valid interpretations, IMHO.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    3 July 2020 at 5:29 pm

                    Come now, I was honest in what I wrote. If you feel that is "noncommittal and evasive" that's your problem. Own your subjective reactions & feelings, why don't you?

                    I simply called it how I saw it. I see no point in your sustained effort to psychoanalyse me. It's not as if psychoanalysis were trendy: it lost its place as a predominant fashion trend in psychology long ago! And anyway, trying to make it all about the personality of commentators is not an appropriate way to conduct a political blog.

                    • Incognito …
                      3 July 2020 at 6:04 pm

                      In other words you ascribed something to the judge’s advice that was never there? Because that’s how you saw it and that’s you called it? I’d call that making things up to suit your thinking AKA confirmation bias. Last time I checked, this was still very much en vogue so you are still trendy.

                      Personality comes through in behaviour and motivation, doesn’t it? I always wonder why people twist reality and what their motivation is. Often it is because they have an agenda, e.g. politicians, and sometimes it is ego-tripping. To label that “psychoanalysis” is fascinating but flawed. I don’t smoke cigars and don’t have a beard if that’s any consolation; your mind is safe. Newtonian mechanics is still very useful and taught at schools. As a Physics graduate you will appreciate the irony of that.

                      BTW, I’m not conducting a political blog, merely commenting and responding here and occasionally cleaning up 😉

                      I’m bored now so TTFN.

                    • Gabby …
                      3 July 2020 at 6:44 pm

                      Are you being honest when you claim to be honest?

              • Sacha …
                3 July 2020 at 4:14 pm

                Some people like defining words to suit themselves. Fine in their own back yard but rather useless in the public square. Villagers tended to shun them after a while.

                • Incognito …
                  3 July 2020 at 4:29 pm

                  Shamans tend to make weird sounds and speak in strange languages. The tribesmen are in awe. Until they realise it is just mostly ritualised BS.

        • Gabby 3.2.1.3
          3 July 2020 at 1:32 pm

          Is this the nexus where snarx meets slynex in praxis?

    • Drowsy M. Kram 3.3
      3 July 2020 at 10:34 am

      A 20+ year 'conflicts of interest tail' must be both long and thin!

      Third question: When judges 'advise' or 'suggest' (as opposed to instruct/direct) a course of action, are Ministers bound to follow? In any event, good that the application for a judicial review of Sage's decision has been dismissed, IMHO, and thanks for bringing this "win for conservation" to my attention.

      Fourth question:

      "Industry capture by means of lobbyists has been institutionalised in the USA for a long time and the public have been held to ransome. Now the boot's on the other foot, here."

      So who/what is being "held to ransome" here? Arthur?

      http://hull-awe.org.uk/index.php/Ransom_-_Ransome

      • Dennis Frank 3.3.1
        3 July 2020 at 11:54 am

        Yeah I did spot that one, but too late to edit. Comes of gardening when frost is on the ground. Even the beanie didn't prevent brain-freeze. 😒

        • Sacha 3.3.1.1
          3 July 2020 at 11:57 am

          Good way to weed out the pedants. 🙂

        • Drowsy M. Kram 3.3.1.2
          3 July 2020 at 12:10 pm

          Sorry Dennis, couldn't help it smiley

          Btw, that fourth question was genuine. I’m easily confused by business/financial/legal matters – were you suggesting that this decision represents the public (via its 'ministerial lobbyist' Sage?) holding industry to ransom? If so then that's great – good example of our government acting in the longer-term public interest.

          • Dennis Frank 3.3.1.2.1
            3 July 2020 at 1:43 pm

            No no just pointing out the analogy – capture by interest groups. I agree the judge seems to be acting in the public interest & wish commenters would focus on the things that matter: setting a precedent (?) and constitutionality of that. I get that idle chit-chat passes time, but would prefer blog commentary to elucidate…

        • Gabby 3.3.1.3
          3 July 2020 at 1:34 pm

          Back to 3rd form Englix for you.

  4. The Al1en 4
    3 July 2020 at 8:20 am

    Regarding the racist Nat mp and returnees being sent to Queenstown. He should be so lucky they're not coming back from China, as every one in national knows Chinese count two more than Indians.

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    3 July 2020 at 8:21 am

    When push comes to shove, how many colleagues does it take to force a minister out? Heather du Plessis-Allan believes enough is enough:

    the reason I don't believe it is because on Monday I was told there were moves afoot to force David Clark to resign. I was told more senior members of government and former senior MPs were involved in a bid to strike a deal with him. I'm told they realised the damage his snafu was doing to them in the polls, and decided to cut him loose.

    And if you want to know what a political deal looks like, read Judith Collins' book where she tells how John Key forced her to quit and maybe come back as a minister in a year. What did the PM say today? Clark might be allowed back as a minister after the election.

    What baffles me is that it took them eight days to engineer this transparent push, instead of the PM simply having the courage and the judgment to fire him days ago. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12345119

    I can see why she's baffled. Could it be that Ardern made a team play? You know, like a rugby scrum where all bind to drive forward. She could have just secured agreement that Clark needed to be shown how to be a team player. Having all those other top ministers gang up on him to push him out would have made it clear that it wasn't personal animus from the PM. Smart thinking!

    • Incognito 5.1
      3 July 2020 at 8:34 am

      Too much imagination, this time.

      • Dennis Frank 5.1.1
        3 July 2020 at 9:09 am

        Does it really require that much imagining to believe Ardern is that smart?? I'm troubled by your pessimism. Maybe there will have to be more prosetylising in the Labour ranks, huh? O ye of little faith!

        • Incognito 5.1.1.1
          3 July 2020 at 9:21 am

          My faith in your judgement is wavering.

          • Dennis Frank 5.1.1.1.1
            3 July 2020 at 9:32 am

            Irrelevant. The court's judgment is the issue. "In law, a judgment, also spelled judgement, is a decision of a court" according to Wikipedia. The judge decided to advise the minister. Perhaps our resident lawyer will opine upon the issue. Good question: is it unprecedented? Another: is it unconstitutional?

            • Sacha 5.1.1.1.1.1
              3 July 2020 at 10:10 am

              This seems to be a reply to #3.

            • Incognito 5.1.1.1.1.2
              3 July 2020 at 11:57 am

              Nice diversion and thus irrelevant. I’m really starting to doubt your judgement. You are commenting and opining here, the judge isn’t. This could apply equally to your comments @ 3 and @ 5.

              • Dennis Frank …
                3 July 2020 at 1:37 pm

                Anyone can see the judge isn't opining here! The judgment was made in court. Why try to cloud the issue? Facing the fact works better. 🙄

                • Incognito …
                  3 July 2020 at 1:47 pm

                  You are opining here. I can see it with even one eye closed, day in day out. Why deny it? Why cloud your judgement to suit your narrative? I’m losing faith in your opinion as well as judgement but you write good headlines.

                  Do you know what a judge’s professional opinion is called?

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    3 July 2020 at 1:53 pm

                    Of course I'm opining here, just like most commentators who post here. What's with this sudden need of yours to keep stating the obvious??

                    • greywarshark …
                      3 July 2020 at 2:06 pm

                      Dennis Frank you seem to be putting some of the topics in your own salt-grinder and turning and turning until the letters start dropping individually. Actually leaving them a bit chunky for someone else to chew on would be good. Is that possible?

                    • Incognito …
                      3 July 2020 at 2:45 pm

                      My ‘needs’ haven’t changed all of a sudden but my faith in your judgement and opinion has been rocked severely. Why would I go on about somebody else’s opinion to you? It makes no sense and I wasn’t but for some reason you pretended I was. I don’t think you’re particularly ‘slow’ and I can only speculate on your reticence acknowledging the issue I was referring to all along.

    • Treetop 5.2
      3 July 2020 at 10:56 pm

      Let the voters decide in Clark's Dunedin electorate, that is what an election is for.

  7. ianmac 7
    3 July 2020 at 9:57 am

    Todd Muller on Checkpoint last challenged by Lisa on his policies. Not very convincing?

    Muller batted away questions over a perceived lack of policies.

    "It's not that nothing has come out, I've made a number of announcements – particularly in terms of supporting business to get them back up on their feet … there's a lot in the can but we're 10 weeks out and I want to make sure we sequence it in the right way. I've got a speech next week which I'm sure you'll be interested in and a number, a series of announcements."

    He said the party had a mixture of policies that were complete, and some which were still being worked on.

    "A bit of both … there are certainly some that have been finalised and some that haven't been finalised … I'm not going to go through that with you on afternoon radio."

    Especially from 4:40

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018753281/muller-on-rebuilding-bridges-we-ve-a-professional-relationship

    • Just Is 7.1
      3 July 2020 at 12:18 pm

      ianmac 7

      How many elections have we seen where National had NO policies to announce, just more of the same and their response is "look over there at the opposition policies" and then deliberately misinterpret them with usual slant of higher taxes or don't have the experience or Just Outright LIES.

      • ianmac 7.1.1
        3 July 2020 at 2:57 pm

        Yes Just Us. Seemed amazing that the Key lot could get away with that. This time might be different because they will have to come up with a compelling counter argument to manage Covid19 aftermath. Questions are already being asked and just saying that this Government is a shambles won't wash – I hope.

        • Just Is 7.1.1.1
          3 July 2020 at 3:49 pm

          Anybody arguing that this Govt is a Shambles has their head in the sand and are seriously politically biased.

          NZ is the luckiest country in the world today, because of the Govts response to the virus, there is no room for criticism fron anyone who values their credibility.

    • Treetop 7.2
      3 July 2020 at 11:01 pm

      Maybe Muller will be up to speed after the election.

  8. Peter chch 8
    3 July 2020 at 10:32 am

    Time to call time on China.

    Xi seems hellbent on destroying all the gains China has made over the last 30 years, and he is intent on war to preserve his power, just like every other failing dictator.

    Not content with trying to (unsuccessfully) bully the rest of the world, they are once again trying to bully us. No more. Boycott their products.

    Trump may be an idiot, but he is right when he says the UN and WHO are largely funded by the west yet whose interests do they represent? The UN is nowhere to be seen on the virus China unleashed on the world due to its lies and secrecy. About tome they suggested that the evil communist government starts making reparations, particularly to the developing world. But of course, as always it will be the nasty old west that does that.

    The single biggest disaster of our time is China C19, yet all posters on here seem concerned about os that isiot Trump.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12345158

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12345066

    • Ad 8.1
      3 July 2020 at 10:40 am

      We brought them into world trade.

      We utterly depend on them.

      And there's no turning back.

      • Peter chch 8.1.1
        3 July 2020 at 10:50 am

        Not true. India will eclipse China economically within the next 20 years, and they are a well educated, democratic society that we have a long and strong relationship with.

        It's not about 'going back', it's more about managing the evil influence of China going forward. Following the UK approach of accepting large scale immigration from Hong Kong would be economically and socially beneficial for NZ and send a clear message of which side of the line we stand.

        • Just Is 8.1.1.1
          3 July 2020 at 12:27 pm

          India might be a democratic society, but corruption is now institutionalised, no real difference between them and China.

      • Sabine 8.1.2
        3 July 2020 at 11:14 am

        why? finding it hard to buy somewhat more expensive goods made by us?

      • greywarshark 8.1.3
        3 July 2020 at 1:58 pm

        Edit
        China. We should start studying some of their sage's thoughts on how to conduct oneself so as to win the war before it even starts. I don't know whether it will succeed, but we should try to do something better than throwing our arms up in the air despairingly, or letting people just walk over us without a move to lessen the pressure. Sun Tzu has a lot to say and if only one out of a 100 is a good, new idea, the study time won't be wasted.

        “If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected .”
        ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

        “Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.”
        ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War         https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/1771.Sun_Tzu

        And don't forget that Australia is not our friend yet we still find ways of interacting with them. China is on a path that is not good, is there some way we could change their course, using chaos theory? Some small variable that we could introduce at a time that's a tipping-point? Perhaps plan it out like tactics in a rugby game, seeing that has become our special interest. Rugby isn't just about being a boof-head though sometimes it seems so.

        And just wonder whether we are the subject of some of Sun-Tzu’s moves ourselves. ‘..appear where you are unexpected’ – I didn’t expect the MP among our politicians?

  9. RedBaronCV 9
    3 July 2020 at 11:58 am

    Today's idiot decision makers in our tertiary education sector.Southern Technical Institute

    This makes absolutely no sense at all.

    Looks like government has provided money for a training course – heavy machinery driving 120 people funded

    Minister says " his first priority is helping find work for New Zealanders who have lost their jobs due to Covid-19"

    Course has been over subscribed

    Half the course are people on temporary work permits ( need a status change or work placement to be allowed to stay)

    Why on earth is the course not giving priority to unemployed New Zealanders. If there aren't enough living in the area then shift the course location or fund temporary relocation through WINZ..

    It's absolutely barking mad. The taxpayer is paying for a course but not taking people who would otherwise be on a taxpayer funded benefit.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/419923/heavy-machinery-driver-shortage-leads-to-plea-for-overseas-workers-to-be-allowed

    • Sacha 9.1
      3 July 2020 at 12:04 pm

      The organisation Rural Contractors New Zealand say they will be short of 1000 skilled tractor and heavy machinery drivers this summer and it is calling on the Minister of Agriculture to allow overseas workers in under the essential worker category.

      Fuck em. Time for some industries to invest in training locals and increase their pay rates to attract and keep employees. Or go out of business if they are incapable of renegotiating their arrangements accordingly. Why should the rest of us prop up their profits?

      • RedBaronCV 9.1.1
        3 July 2020 at 1:23 pm

        Yes, longer term industries should fund their own training. Short term – with the crisis -it's probably a reasonable investment in changing work skills.

        But STI must be brain dead – they should be required to take people who are eligible to work here, New Zealanders who have lost their jobs( or maybe who want to upgrade) rather than people who are on a short term cannot be used work permit. I'd like to think a "please explain" is already winging it's way from the ministers office.

        Down below I see we have hit 200,000 unemployed

        • Gabby 9.1.1.1
          3 July 2020 at 1:41 pm

          They may have found a lack of eagerness among hardworking kiwi families to subject themselves to a cheery southern winter.

          • Sabine 9.1.1.1.1
            3 July 2020 at 5:37 pm

            nah, surely that can't be it. But maybe low pay, cold houses and the expense of moving is what is keeping people from not going for it.

            usually when businesses complain of lack of skilled workers its code for 'our wages are so crap that we can only get people from countries were the wages are even crappier. please provide visas".

      • bwaghorn 9.1.2
        3 July 2020 at 1:27 pm

        Alot of them are young fallas and fulesss one oe. Young kiwis chase the harvesting ,shearing seasons around the globe and foreign ones come here for the same . Most arnt full time jobs and are quit skilled . Any one can drive tractors ,even me , but operateing them with some of the gear they tow and on some of the terrain they they travel over is a another thing .

        Did you tell james Cameron to get fucked and hire kiwis,

        • Sacha 9.1.2.1
          3 July 2020 at 1:57 pm

          Senior digital screen production expertise is a limited pool. Most of the industry here are New Zealanders.

          Driving tractors, on the other hand..

        • RedBaronCV 9.1.2.2
          3 July 2020 at 2:15 pm

          The courses are actually oversubscribed according to the story. How hard would it be to actually teach people who live here long term and would otherwise be on unemployment benefits.

          Yep at the top end some of it is pretty skilled but that is not the object of this course – creating entry level people who can then move up or enable others already in the industry to move up. And some of the trainees are ex pilots – I'm sure an ex 747 pilot has the spatial skills to move up fairly rapidly … we just haven't previously trained any.

          And james Cameron should also be pushed to have a training programme for locals rather than just a great big taxpayer funded bung.

    • Foreign waka 9.2
      3 July 2020 at 12:49 pm

      It may come down to experience in the working world, with that I mean real work not carrier politics. It seems that a crisis shows shortcomings more pronounced.

    • greywarshark 9.3
      3 July 2020 at 1:46 pm

      Perhaps it can be treated like a vaccination. There is a dis-ease in NZ and to stop it becoming more advanced, give it a bit of a shot in the arm from education. Then perhaps we can concentrate on coping with the chronic illness we have of persisting in over-fattening ourselves on imported matter, and use home-grown product wherever possible. Have I been able to express this in a kindly but practical manner?

  10. greywarshark 10
    3 July 2020 at 12:37 pm

    I thought this was a thoughtful message to people in general.

    “We all commit our crimes. The thing is to not lie about them — to try to understand what you have done, why you have done it. That way, you can begin to forgive yourself. That's very important. If you don't forgive yourself you'll never be able to forgive anybody else and you'll go on committing the same crimes forever.”
    ― James Baldwin, Another Country

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Baldwin (1924-1987)

  12. Just Is 12
    3 July 2020 at 12:52 pm

    The number of Covid 19 cases is just about to clock over to 11 million, a new record for new daily cases with US recording 56980 new cases on its own.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    The stats indicate 92% recover and 8% don't

      • bwaghorn 12.1.1
        3 July 2020 at 1:21 pm

        USA USA USA USA .

        WORLD LEADERS

        TRUMP IS GREAT.

        • greywarshark 12.1.1.1
          3 July 2020 at 3:54 pm

          Well Florida's problem is just nature at work. There's a saying about Florida being where the retired 'snowbirds' go for the winter. And another 'Birds of same feather flock together'. So all the oldies go and mingle there and they must have a large proportion of older ages.

          It seems they had in 2010 about 5.5 million people over 55 years, which is when Covid-19 starts to weigh in. http://edr.state.fl.us/Content/population-demographics/data/Pop_Census_Day.pdf

          Now they have had 169,000 confirmed cases and 3,505 deaths. On 4 June new cases registered at 1419. On 18 June 3207, more than double new cases two weeks. The largest number of new cases registered was on 27 June 9,585 and then there was a drop which indicates a break in testing because it is so sharp. Latest confirmed new cases – (25/6-1/7 – 5004, 8942, 9585, 9530, 5266, 6093, 6563 = 50,983 in week. There is a potential for deaths in five figures from Florida alone. There won't be the room to bury such numbers, smoking chimneys common. RIP.

          And Florida is a laid-back place about doing government honestly and properly. Carl Hiaasen has made his living from writing about their zeitgeist. If they cared about their visitors the government would have taken the oldies particularly, under their wing. They are worth billions to the state.

          (To look at Florida and other state daily figures look up google and keywords – Florida covid-19 cases so far – which is shorter than the link address)

          Note Idaho is shooting up percentagewise looking at chart further up – 467% new in last two weeks, but base numbers were low so at 1 July there were only 253 new confirmed cases. (6593 cases 91 deaths – recovered 4073)

          Figures can differ between different reports. But the trend is the important thing, is it going sharply up, or plateauing, sloping down?

      • Gabby 12.1.2
        3 July 2020 at 1:43 pm

        STOP TESTING GODDAMMIT!!

        • Just Is 12.1.2.1
          3 July 2020 at 2:07 pm

          Trump honestly believes the only reason the US has so many cases is cos they carry out more tests than any other country.

          How did this idiot ever get elected, is the avg IQ in the US so low its not measurable

          • Draco T Bastard 12.1.2.1.1
            3 July 2020 at 5:26 pm

            How did this idiot ever get elected, is the avg IQ in the US so low its not measurable

            It is, IMO, the problem with telling people that their opinions are just as valid as everyone else's even when those opinions are not based upon fact or even logic.

      • joe90 12.1.3
        3 July 2020 at 2:04 pm

        Quick, someone find these lemmings a cliff.

        https://twitter.com/StephBuffamonte/status/1278424931798331395

        • Just Is 12.1.3.1
          3 July 2020 at 2:14 pm

          Yep, the good oll US of A, we have the right to behave stupidly, why do think we voted in Trump.

          Meanwhile there are over 40 million unemployed right now.

        • greywarshark 12.1.3.2
          3 July 2020 at 2:38 pm

          You can see those protesters are all wet! Perhaps the devil made them do it.

        • AB 12.1.3.3
          3 July 2020 at 5:40 pm

          Layers of irony here – someone in Seminole County saying "my body my choice". Not a choice given to members of the Seminole tribe forced out of Florida to exile in "Indian Territory" (Oklahoma) in the late 1850's.

      • joe90 12.1.4
        3 July 2020 at 2:20 pm

        Reopen the schools….what could possibly go wrong?

        https://twitter.com/sfchronicle/status/1278543840367050757

      • Andre 12.1.5
        3 July 2020 at 6:50 pm

        They got clued in that Keep America Great might not be the most effective slogan right now. So they went back to Make America Great Again. Oops.

        https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-make-america-great-again-slogan-returns_n_5efe8471c5b6ca97091b9dd4

        And dear Eric tried to have a crack at the Clintons over Ghislaine's arrest, bless his heart. Somebody get a Participation Trophy for that boy.

        https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eric-trump-ghislaine-maxwell_n_5efe9858c5b612083c5992da

    • Treetop 12.2
      3 July 2020 at 11:10 pm

      The most reliable aspect of Covid-19 is more cases. A breakthrough, even a small one would be welcomed.

  13. greywarshark 13
    3 July 2020 at 2:35 pm

    Why would google have a 2020 date on a Herald article from 2001? I was looking up Laila Harre and came on a piece about smacking which I knew was historical stuff.

    Ban the smacks, says Laila Harre – NZ Herald

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz › news › article

    May 7, 2020 – Youth Affairs Minister Laila Harre has condemned the law allowing children to be smacked, calling it 'legalised violence. ' Under the Crimes Act, pa.

    • Just Is 13.1
      3 July 2020 at 4:03 pm

      I don't know if you remember the 2008 election where this issue was quite possibly the reason Clark was not returned.

      The level of hyperbole and misinformation from Key and the media was relentless, the Anti Smacking Bill, right idea, wrong time, a Green Bill that was attached to the Govt, should have been left till after the election.

      I think the outcome would have been a lot different.

  14. Fireblade 14
    3 July 2020 at 2:47 pm

    Breaking News
    WHO is changing the name of Covid-19 to Trumpvirus-2020.

    Cases: 2,837,189
    Deaths: 131,485

    Making America Great Again.

    • Just Is 14.1
      3 July 2020 at 4:05 pm

      Certainly leading from the front.

    • greywarshark 14.2
      3 July 2020 at 4:10 pm

      I was thinking if Trump has a hiccup one morning and decided he wants to send armed forces here and we have to accept them, they might do a Guam on us bringing their nasty bugs with them along with their warmongering. In the old historic days the crafties knew how to use germs. They would chuck infected bandages etc over the walls to spread disease. They mightn't have known all the science but they knew what havoc it would create. We don't want that do we!

      • Barfly 14.2.1
        3 July 2020 at 4:40 pm

        I know your suggestion is an almighty piss take- but if if happened who would be in our corner?? It wouldn't be Aussie UK France Canada The EU ..such irony the only ones likely to complain would be China and Russia.

    • AB 14.3
      3 July 2020 at 5:45 pm

      But those 131,000 people enjoyed their 'freedom'. Albeit a totally insane conception of freedom – the freedom to not give a flying f*ck about anyone else, and have them not give a flying f*ck about you.

  15. greywarshark 15
    3 July 2020 at 4:04 pm

    This item by Chris Trotter in Interest.co. from Jun.15/20

    https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/105493/chris-trotter-assesses-national-leader-todd-mullers-weekend-speech-suggesting-he-has

    I was looking for Laila Harre's latest and she is mentioned here I think.

  16. OnceWasTim 16
    3 July 2020 at 4:37 pm

    Just for some light relief …..

    Has anyone else come across an 'app' called 'Logmate'? I'm just curious because for what its ekshully doing, it really should be capable of running on the most back-level "smartfone" device anyone ever invented. NZTA requires it, or something like it.

    But as you were….there are far more pressing matters for people to discuss (oops have a conversation with)
    anyone who is engaged in, or thinking of engaging in the g-g-g-gig economy, and if we don't know already, NZTA has a spectacular record.

    • RedBaronCV 16.1
      3 July 2020 at 5:16 pm

      I had a runout rego payment to make to NZTA. I phoned up to make the payment and got put through to some system that asked me to use the the phone buttons & tones to put all the payment data in from cards etc. Absolutely no indication of what the system was or the level of security or anything else. The only other way to make the payment was by cheque- which was what they got. The nice very practical person that I spoke to at NZTA did say that an on the ground payment option (other NZTA fees can be paid at the NZPO) would be a good idea but it appears to have been squashed further up.

      As a matter of principal I believe there should be a whole of government /local body answer to being able to pay these and other obligatory charges without the payer having to incur excessive fees or costs charged by banking systems rather than every little department having its own system..

      Logmate looks like a system that records commercial drivers approved hours.

      • OnceWasTim 16.1.1
        3 July 2020 at 5:25 pm

        That's exactly what it is. Not that complicated one would have thought. Inputting small amounts of data to a database to ensure drivers are compliant with the regs.

        I guess Logmate's developer is probably making a killing these days removing all references to "Master" and "Slave" from code.

        Thank your God I'm well out of it these days.

  17. RedBaronCV 17
    3 July 2020 at 5:03 pm

    Why Queenstown for quarantine – I know it has hotels but the main hospital if needed is way over in Dunedin.

  18. Gabby 18
    3 July 2020 at 5:13 pm

    So Qtown don't want to be a quarantine centre but want their tourists back? Seems a tad inconsistent.

    • RedBaronCV 18.1
      3 July 2020 at 5:20 pm

      Nah they are worried that quarantine will kill the locals coming there. And as far as I am concerned they are dead right – I wouldn't go near the place any more than I would catch a flight on the local plague airline.

      • Sabine 18.1.1
        3 July 2020 at 5:42 pm

        well then, don't go to Auckland, nor Rotorua. But i guess Queenstown is a little less NZ then the rest of NZ.

        • RedBaronCV 18.1.1.1
          3 July 2020 at 5:44 pm

          They are pretty low on my list as well. Gisborne here I come.

        • AB 18.1.1.2
          3 July 2020 at 5:52 pm

          Queenstown is a freezing cold, overpriced sh*thole contaminated by sleazy money-obsessed Tories. Fifty years ago it was one of the most beautiful places on the planet.

          • RedBaronCV 18.1.1.2.1
            3 July 2020 at 6:37 pm

            True I agree and Eichardts was a pub with a public bar where no woman would feel comfortable but dogs were allowed. Those were the days.It's always been on the shady side of the lake though.

            • Adrian 18.1.1.2.1.1
              3 July 2020 at 6:54 pm

              Hang on, the sheilas in the clean Swannies were nice girls.

              • RedBaronCV …
                3 July 2020 at 7:17 pm

                Down memory lane here. The swannies, the dogs and the hunting , shooting fishing gear all part of that.

          • Graeme 18.1.1.2.2
            3 July 2020 at 7:50 pm

            Fifty years ago it was a freezing cold, overpriced sh*thole contaminated by sleazy money obsessed Tories too. Whakatipu is still one of the most beautiful places on the planet.

        • Gabby 18.1.1.3
          3 July 2020 at 6:07 pm

          I did wonder if the ppl letting Boult know they'd be staying away are the owners of the flash houses up on the hills. Never mind Jim, they'll still pay their rates.

      • Gabby 18.1.2
        3 July 2020 at 6:06 pm

        I guess they don't get the concept of quarantine. They must be expecting to socialise with the returnees.

      • Gabby 18.1.3
        3 July 2020 at 7:16 pm

        But they think tourists won't? Fukcwits.

    • Graeme 18.2
      3 July 2020 at 8:25 pm

      Queenstown would be a bit silly for a plane load of people straight from LA, London or Delhi. The risk to the returnee, and the Queenstown health system and population would be too great. We've got a 20 – 30 bed third level hospital here and it's a 1 – 2 hour helicopter ride to better care depending on what's required. Not to say we didn't get through the initial bit in March without too much drama. And yes it was ALL on here for a few weeks.

      That's not to say that some Queenstown hotels couldn't be set up to take lower risk people in their second week. This would take the pressure off Auckland facilities and put some much needed cashflow into into hotels that are at present effectively shut and their staff unemployed. There's several large hotels that are seperate from the rest of town that would be easily set up and controlled.

      If part charging becomes a thing there's quite a few higher end places that could do a quite nice couple of weeks for a price, This is probably how our tourism industry will operate in medium term so would be a good way of setting that up and learning how to do it.

    • Pat 18.3
      3 July 2020 at 8:31 pm

      theyve got their gov bailout…no need to play the game any more…it would be laughable if it wasnt so serious…Boult atypical

  19. RedBaronCV 19
    3 July 2020 at 5:35 pm

    Why on earth are we even taking "expressions of interest" from potential migrants when we have a queue of half a million and 200,000 registered as unemployed plus those who would like more work but who don't register? Don't we need to quash the endless expectation that there will be endless migration.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/300047408/we-no-longer-feel-safe-in-the-us-new-zealand-presents-a-safe-haven-for-wouldbe-migrants

    • Pingao 19.1
      3 July 2020 at 6:06 pm

      The article is by a black Muslim immigrant woman so I can fully understand why she would like her family to be in NZ and her kids to grow up here (despite our faults) rather than the States.

      • RedBaronCV 19.1.1
        3 July 2020 at 6:33 pm

        I wasn't commenting on that individual, rather on the number of people looking.

        Although if they are from the UK and looking they could have voted to put in MMP when they had the referendum, told the lib dems to back Jeremy Corban for #10 with a very limited agenda to move brexit along, rather than voting for Boris and giving him a landslide. Stop voting for the tories and Farage. Then maybe they would have what we have . The US is more complex but there will be some similar levers.