Open mike 03/10/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 3rd, 2023 - 103 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

103 comments on “Open mike 03/10/2023 ”

  1. lprent 1

    The site was a victim of spring cleaning. Looks like we knocked the power off at the UPS while cleaning up cables and reorganising furniture late night at about 10pm.

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    I see Jack Tame has become an election issue. How much?

    As close observers of the 2023 campaign will be aware, Jack Tame, host of the TVNZ programme Q+A, is emerging as an important election issue. https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/02-10-2023/the-minister-responsible-for-jack-tame

    Yeah, but how much?

    Probably somewhere between law and order and climate change.

    Wow! No kidding?

    Winston Peters and Willie Jackson have helpfully laid out comprehensive Jack Tame manifesto positions by choosing, in conversations with Jack Tame, to talk a lot about Jack Tame.

    Jackson is, of course, the current broadcasting minister (encompassing Jack Tame), and presumptive broadcasting minister under a Labour-Green-Te-Pāti-Māori coalition of chaos. Peters, meanwhile, revealed to Jack Tame yesterday that he would seek the ministerial warrant for broadcasting in a National-Act-NZ-First coalition of chaos.

    So no matter the election outcome we get a coalition of chaos & interesting times. Cool.

    Top of Peters’ list for Jack Tame reforms is stopping Jack Tame being “corrupt” and, as he put it, “trying to get rid of New Zealand First because your masters told you to”. It is unclear whether, under a change of government, Jack Tame would be permitted to try to get rid of New Zealand First if his masters did not tell him to.

    Yeah, obviously the situation will require a certain amount of head-scratching. Could wheel out a few political scientists into the mix to pontificate on the health of democracy in this scenario. Get Jack Tame to rate their comparative credibility.

    • Ad 2.1

      Jack Tame is going well into the Lindsay Perigo scale of political importance, but he probes largely on political tactics and dynamics rather than what actual government or – dare we expect it – what kind of New Zealand each kind of coalition would deliver.

      He's hardly Ian Fraser in gravitas or actual use beyond the standard beltway echo-chamber.

      • Patricia Bremner 2.1.1

        Ad, what is your considered opinion of Winston Peters’ behaviour during that interview?

        • mikesh 2.1.1.1

          He lacks media training. If he doesn't know the cost of something he should admit that, but then say the issue, whatever it is, is one that we should be considering, regardless of cost. That would stop Jack Tame’s silly nonsense in its tracks.

  3. Barfly 3

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/revealed-how-acts-david-seymour-was-gifted-a-plane-for-the-election-campaign/

    Now when I noticed this right wing puff piece by the toilet paper escaping NZ Herald I developed something of an itch in the back of my mind. The article lead with

    "The wealthy businessman who gifted Act leader David Seymour his personal plane without cost to help his election campaign says he did so to allow Seymour to replicate the “whistle-stop” tours commonly seen in the United States."

    Now that itch at the back of my mind was starting to piss me off and while I felt that excreable article was in the 'right' vein it wasn't what was pissing me off soo much.

    My curse/blessing of a bloody good memory delivered with the association my subconscious was trying to propel me to. – and viola

    https://www.wondriumdaily.com/hitlers-presidential-campaign-of-1932/

    "The Nazis adopted a populist sort of approach to politics, which no one had witnessed earlier in Germany. It was called a Deutschlandflug. Hitler took to the skies, flying from city to city in an airplane. He was a manvonvolk, a man from the people. They created an image of a peripatetic, all-powerful man who could be at all places at all times." (my bold)

    David Seymour – perhaps the new 'Minister of Social Welfare Warfare' in a coming NACT Government

  4. Dennis Frank 4

    Farrar has an interesting take on our business elite here: https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/

    These are the average scores on a 1 to 5 scale that CEOs gave to various politicians in the Herald’s Mood of the Boardroom survey.

    8. James Shaw 3.07

    5. Christoper Luxon 3.49

    7. Damien O’Connor 3.20

    10. Chris Hipkins 2.95

    12. Kieran McAnulty 2.85

    13. Grant Robertson 2.84

    14. Paul Goldsmith 2.81

    31. Marama Davidson 1.75

    Here's the bottom 4 on that list:

    33. Kelvin Davis 1.66

    34. Debbie Ngarewa-Packer 1.65

    35. Jan Tinetti 1.62

    36. Rawiri Waititi 1.60

    37. Willie Jackson 1.52

    Business hotshots aren't keen on Willie but they rate the Maori radicals higher! Who don't they rate?? Failures that failed to make the list at all: Seymour & co, Winston & co. I'm intrigued Farrar didn't notice this significant failure! surprise

    • Bearded Git 4.1

      Don't buy in to this bollocks Dennis.

      • Dennis Frank 4.1.1

        Why not? Seems very significant that they rate leftist politicians highly. It breaks the mould that people carry around in their heads: capitalists = rightists. Shows they ain't as dumb as they seem.

        Or, to put the point more elegantly, the extent to which they reward leftist politicians mentally for supporting the established economy.

        • Bearded Git 4.1.1.1

          Well who are numbers 1,2,3 4, 6 and 8?

          • Dennis Frank 4.1.1.1.1

            Nats apart from #8 which I noted above was James. Too scared to go & see for yourself? Don't blame you. Spiritual pollution is real, and it does infect!

            I zip in & out after a quick scan to avoid that – just to stay informed at this point in the campaign.

            • Bearded Git 4.1.1.1.1.1

              It's paywalled.

              So the first 6 people with highest scores from CEO's are Nats. D'oh!

              • Dennis Frank

                Strange, I saw it on Farrar's blog no problem, didn't encounter a paywall, but yeah, interesting that they don't rate Lux highly even though he was one of that elite group!!

      • tc 4.1.2

        Sage advice there BG. Farrar behind grannys paywall asking CEO'S was enough.

        Another useful tool for the right Davey Boy.

    • Ad 4.2

      It's not useful for anything.

      NZHerald invents different Top 10 Power Brokers for this or that industry from horse racing to real estate.

      What they never get to is the harder one: who are the top 20 most powerful people in New Zealand?

      And what you would get to quickly is that politicians under the top 3 are now well down to the top families and billionaires, and those who Chair multiple listed companies. That is the real rank of power.

      Ranking NZ power is very, very different to ranking Parliamentary power.

      • Dennis Frank 4.2.1

        I take your point but hierarchical rankings always impress people en masse. Social darwinism effects in the psyche of voters.

        I believe such listings work on a similar basis to imagery: they evoke feelings, form impressions. The interface tween political culture & people is at play…

        • Ad 4.2.1.1

          Go and stretch your political mind and list the top 20 most powerful people in New Zealand.

          Use every measure you can think of.

      • AB 4.2.2

        Yep. These lists are useful only anthropologically: first you see which groups the Herald deems worthy of having their opinions published; second you see the prejudices of the selected group laid out. It's boring because it's quite easy to predict both these things fairly accurately without the Herald having to do the actual survey in the first place.

    • weka 4.3

      please supply a direct link. Go to the post, click on the title, copy and paste from the address bar.

      • Dennis Frank 4.3.1

        https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2023/09/mood_of_the_boardroom_ratings.html

        Yeah I didn't go into it earlier because I read it on his front page. Frank the tank wrote "Lot of corporate wokesters are CEOs now. Explains Shaw at above 3".

        He was actually #8 which isn't above 3. That Frank seems to be using his inability to do simple arithmetic to demonstrate rightist solidarity.

        Another, krazykiwi, notes that "the ‘result’ is a Bayesian data crime." Literary references to top 19th century mathematicians are unlikely to impress rightist readers due to them not having a clue what he's talking about.

  5. Adrian 5

    Anyone get the irony of theNats complaining about how unfair life is because their Lead Sook is accused of running scared while they plan to slash the poorest’s income and sack up to 15,000 people before Christmas. Arseholes!.

    • alwyn 5.1

      "sack up to 15,000 people before Christmas"

      What evidence do you have for your claim that the National Party plan to do this? When have they said that they plan to do so?

    • gsays 5.2

      Any thoughts on the courage (or lack of) in the rejected idea of the deputies filling in?

      After all, that is what deputies are for.

  6. ianmac 6

    Evangelists believe that their god is all powerful.

    Therefore their god would not allow a disastrous Climate change to happen.

    Thus for people like Luxon they can pat the believers of Climate change on the head and leave it all to their god.

    Perhaps that is why National is not active climatically but delay delay delay.

    • Barfly 6.1

      Perhaps we should also get biblical

      "To burn the earth is a great sin and the wages of sin is death Mr Luxon"

      (I wrote that – just now)

    • Ad 6.2

      You ever read the story of Noah?

      • SPC 6.2.1

        It's a story …and even those who hold it to be true were told it would not happen again.

        The real issue with them is their belief in end time God intervention to sort out the liberals and also fix all of the CC problem.

        • Ad 6.2.1.1

          God apparently is well on record to wipe people out through climatic events, written with Genesis in about 1400BC. So it's not some recent preserve of evangelicals.

          There are plenty of telos-driven end-timers on many parts of the political spectrum. You can find them in their billionaire bunkers in Queenstown and Wanaka, in Far North communes, all across Southland from Tuatapere to Owaka, in parts of the Green Party, in the peace movement, all over the place.

          National and Labour can be described as delaying our inevitable end.

          • Dennis Frank 6.2.1.1.1

            Yeah. I'm optimistic enough to discount end-times as inevitable, yet realistic enough to acknowledge that addiction to neoliberalism keeps escalating their probability of happening.

            Humanity evolves via catharsis experiences. System crash is a viable possibility at all times. Being locked into any particular mental state diminishes survival prospects and that logic applies to all of us. Hold your beliefs lightly to survive any testing times, shift and adapt when situations compel it.

      • Barfly 6.2.2

        I would be lucky to withstand reading a few lines without losing it.

        perhaps I should've said

        "To drown or burn the earth is a great sin and…..et cetera

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.3

      Oldie but a goodie (GOP Jesus)

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 6.3.1

        Well..thats a smiler for the morning : ) GOP and Evangelical Luxon Christian? Humour…does help in these (and other) times….

        It is super duper easy for a rich man to enter the Kindom of Heaven. The richer the better, really. Maybe get a solid gold house just to be sure.

        FYI..(just in case?) I say..Truth in Humour !

  7. joe90 7

    Chief Sook displaying his mendacious arrogance.

    Christopher Luxon ChatGPT

    @rugbyintel

    The problem with Maori is they just won't accept that I know best. They don't even know Maori health outcomes did really well over the last National government.

    https://twitter.com/rugbyintel/status/1708752874216493546

    The Hui livestream: October 02, 2023 @5:40>

    https://www.youtube.com/live/UP0hZ8vp1Nk?si=hKDNVKwRos8hjAcT&t=340

  8. Anne 8

    Christopher Bishop

    @cjsbishop

    This is another lie from Chris Hipkins. Robertson was never put forward as a stand-in. We offered the Deputies – Nicola v Kelvin. We’ve never had a response to that. Offer remains open.

    Quote

    Ben McKay

    @benmackey

    ·1h

    Hipkins tells AM Labour put forward Grant Robertson as a debate stand-in tonight. "Unfortunately the National party weren't happy with that" Still hopes it could happen next week "I understand Christopher Luxon is going to be in Christchurch on Monday so that would be a good day"

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133039988/live-christopher-luxon-says-he-didnt-pull-out-of-press-leaders-debate

    Projection again. It is not Hipkins playing dirty and lying.

    • Barfly 8.1

      Should perhaps Labour offer to have the debate using only former Big Tobacco shills – oops dang thats right Labour, unlike National, is in a severe shortage of those sociopaths.

      • Anne 8.1.1

        Note: Kelvin Davis is not the Deputy PM. Grant Robertson is. His opposite no. is Nicola Willis who, in the event of a Nat win would become Deputy PM.

        So there's dirty politics from C Bishop for starters.

        • Bearded Git 8.1.1.1

          Carmel Sepuloni is deputy PM. Kelvin Davis is deputy leader.

          But it should be leader versus leader. Hipkins has offered alternative dates. A woman spokesperson from The Press said that this was possible this morning on RadioNZ, but that the Chicken had refused to change his schedule. The Chicken has admitted this.
          https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018909455

          • Dennis Frank 8.1.1.2.1

            Thought so. Why, then, did Hipkins tell AM (as Anne cited above) that Labour offered Robertson instead. No faith in their deputy, obviously!

            Quite right for the Nats to reject a fake leaders debate when Labour put forward a fake leader instead of a real leader! Goddam charade. Pathetic.

            • Anne 8.1.1.2.1.1

              You are a bs artist Frank. If you are going to have a debate then you offer like with like. You have spent the past few weeks throwing rocks and Labour and "lefties" in general so don't try to fool me or most people here what you are up to.

              • Dennis Frank

                Look Anne, there's no need to try offensive bullshit in order to avoid the reality that you don't want to face up to. Face the facts!

                If you believe anything I wrote is wrong, prove it by quoting facts. If you can't, have the grace to apologise.

              • Bearded Git

                Agree with that Anne. I think Dennis is a troll.

                • Dennis Frank

                  I'm curious. Do you see all onsite commentators here who don't agree with you as such? If not, precisely what in my commentary makes you think like that??

                • Anne

                  Don’t think he is a troll, but he does come up with bullshit (I use the full word since he did) from time to time. I note that – like me – not too many people bother to respond to it. 🙂

            • AB 8.1.1.2.1.2

              That's a bit purist Dennis. Since elections are so much about economic policy, it would be silly and unfair to put a non-finance minister against a finance shadow minister – just because of the accident of how the deputy-leader roles have been assigned.

              • AB

                Oops – sorry Dennis, my mistake. Should read: "put a non-finance minister (Sepuloni) against the leader of the opposition"

                • Dennis Frank

                  Yeah it's a valid point re parity, but the chicken thing side-steps the rules of the game: status parity. Debates must do that to seem fair to audience.

                  • Anne

                    So you agreed with AB re the "parity" point but not my "like with like" @ 1132am which means exactly the same thing. Interesting.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Wasn't clear to me what you meant then. I could comment better on your position if you clarified further how you see parity being provided by Labour in their debate stance…

                    • Anne

                      Debate twosomes.

                      Leaders Hipkin (PM) Luxon (would be PM)

                      Deputies Sepuloni (DPM) Willis (would be DPM)

                      Last but not least:

                      Finance Minister Robertson (former DPM) Willis (would be Finance Minister and DPM)

                      All of those pairs have acceptable parities or in my words 'like with like'.

                    • Dennis Frank

                      Okay, I see your reasoning & have no disagreement with it. Not sure how it bears on what Labour actually did tho!

                      If they really did offer the debate to Robertson, why didn't they provide parity framing so the Nats could reciprocate??

                    • Anne

                      They probably did Dennis Frank, or at least framed it in such a way they invited National to accordingly respond. They chose not to.

                      After 50 plus years of political experience as part of an inner circle and observing closely from the periphery, together with another experience not aligned to Labour, I easily detect lying, cheating and disingenuous behaviour. This is how the National Party under Luxon is operating. I would not believe anything that man says nor his deputy and certainly not his campaign manager. They are an extension of the dirty politics Nicky Hager wrote about nearly ten years ago. Nothing has changed.

                    • Roger []

                      Sure you do Anne

  9. Kat 9

    Letter from Insurance company today listing main factors for changes in house and contents policy with rise in premiums:

    • Rising inflation – particularly in the building sector;
    • Extreme weather events; and
    • Supply chain disruptions.

    And here I was being made to think it was all due to Labour's 'wasteful spending'………

    • satty 9.1

      Yep, same here. The insurance premium increased by 50% and 30% (Content and House) for us. For me the Climate Crises and Cost-of-Living Crises are closely interlinked.

      Oh, the insurance company didn't mention another important factor… greed-flation.

      • Kat 9.1.1

        The 'cost of living crisis' has been leveraged to the max with price increases……..similar to throwing petrol on a fire…..

  10. Drowsy M. Kram 10

    Luxon maintains he can't reschedule debate [3 October 2023]
    We’re in the last week of a campaign and it’s pretty hectic…

    So Luxon thinks he's "in the last week of a campaign" – but isn't this the second-to-last week? Has Lux been consulting his would-be finance minister about "technical numbers"?

    • Kat 10.1

      Chippy has already offered to turn up on next Monday and do the Press Leaders debate, live with audience questions. Luxon is scheduled to be in Ch Ch that day and if he doesn't turn up to the debate that is going to be a very very very bad look……..

      • Belladonna 10.1.1

        Bad look in whose eyes?

        The lefties who wouldn't vote National if you paid them?

        For the rest, Luxon has already done what he needs to in the debates (i.e. looked reasonably competent to the online/TV audience) [as judged by the commentators – of course he won't look competent in the eyes of the left wing]

        There are no further wins for him to take out of debates with Hipkins. And this particular one wasn't even going to be televised – so an audience of max 2,000.

        It's a piece of basic electioneering. And National have judged he can maximise his opportunities to convince wavering voters, elsewhere.

        • Kat 10.1.1.1

          Luxon……"looked reasonably competent to the online/TV audience…."

          "…as judged by the commentators…."

          Oh of course….the "commentators"…the ones that decide thinking……..

          And the debate was to be livestreamed….meaning it can be watched on TV with the push of a button……

          • Belladonna 10.1.1.1.1

            Well, who do you think does decide?

            If you can't accept analysis by political commentators – then there really is little point in discussing anything with you.

            It doesn't make your opinion wrong – just not widely shared….

            • Kat 10.1.1.1.1.1

              What about the still undecideds…….the National candidates and supporters in Christchurch……

              If you base your thinking on the analysis of current mainstream political commentators then no wonder you appear to have a fragile self concept.

              • Belladonna

                National have made the call that the 'undecideds' won't be materially affected by the Christchurch election debate.
                And are more likely to be affected by alternative electioneering strategies. National candidates and supporters in ChCh have already made their minds up (and probably already voted) – no point in preaching to the choir.

                TBH – I'd tend to agree – after the first one, and absent a major debating coup ("show me the money" "this glitter is going to settle") – which is not going to come from Mr Bland and Mr Blander – the debates don't change opinion.

                And, yes, I do find political analysis interesting. Those who don't are doomed to fester in their own little corner of the internet echo chamber – and will find the real world rather a shock when it comes calling.

                While I could make some response to your personalization of the discussion. I’ll leave it at the fact that those without a coherent argument, degenerate to name-calling.
                And, that it takes someone with a rather tough self-concept to continue commenting as a Centrist on a left-leaning site like TS.

                • Kat

                  Ok, finding political analysis interesting is a long stretch from basing your thinking on said analysis. But hey, who am I to argue with such depth of awareness of someone so grounded in the real world…..phew! please send autograph to moderator……

                  Name calling….mmmmn….not that I mentioned anything but now that you have, Primadonna seems to fit……

                  • Belladonna

                    those without a coherent argument, degenerate to name-calling.

                    • Kat

                      Naming is a way of placing order on our world by helping us differentiate between things. It also helps others know what we are referring to when having a conversation…………..

                  • Belladonna

                    If you struggle to differentiate between 'naming' (using the preferred name for a person or thing, or the commonly used term) and 'name calling' (using a pejorative term or phrase, designed to slur to denigrate) – then I'm sorry for you.

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 10.2

      Well, Lux was the guy who spells "Cat"…. : )

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/election-2023-christopher-luxon-stumbles-on-spelling-doesn-t-rule-out-banning-mobile-phones-in-schools.html

      Maybe a sentence might have helped?

      The fat cat sat, on the mat…….

      • Bearded Git 10.2.1

        Luxon is the man who opposes the clean-car discount but took it himself.

        Clearly he is entirely trustworthy.

  11. weka 11

    “Being forced into a room with men when unwell and vulnerable – often separated by only a curtain – may be traumatising to many women, even if the perception of threat or danger isn’t realised. It’s not surprising that the practice has been a frequent topic of complaint in feedback from patients, their families and the staff who care for them.

    “Mixed-gender rooms breach the psychological safety of these patients, but this is avoidable by changing bed management practices,” Towns says.

    “Male and female patients express a preference for single-gender rooms. For female patients, this preference is associated with fear of violence while for male patients it is expressed as general concern and discomfort.

    “Respecting these preferences is essential to maintain patient dignity during their hospital stay.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/call-for-single-gender-hospital-rooms-to-protect-human-rights-new-report/CFVSTEUIUZEADPOJ7LFASBD33A/

    • Barfly 11.1

      Gee why on earth would they do this (mixed rooms) Surely they they should be all gender specific ?

      – Could it perhaps have something to do with maximising the use of available facilities to provide treatment? If you insist on gender specific rooms you are going to have more empty beds that won't be allowed to be used and you will have less health care delivered.

      Where is the budget coming from to build more treatment facilities so that you can manage a lower utilisation rate? You may get more comfortable patients but you bloody well aren't going to be able to treat as many.

      • psych nurse 11.1.1

        ED,s separated by curtains, Acute medicat assessment units separated by curtains, Recovery separated by curtains, whats the problem ?.

    • SPC 11.2

      If they have separate areas for males and females in the UK, that would explain the concern about gender ID in their health system then …

  12. Dennis Frank 12

    Twyford announces foreign policy decision by Labour, Minto freaks out:

    “It’s a disgraceful decision, both unprincipled and cowardly” says PSNA National Chair John Minto.https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/10/03/labour-refuses-to-recognise-palestine-even-after-104-years/

    Grant Robertson – There is a formal Foreign Policy part of the manifesto. We’re sticking with the long standing Bi-Partisan approach to a 2 state solution in the Middle East and what we are doing is working with the Palestinian representative on closer discussions but that doesn’t make a change to a formal recognition. It just means that we open that dialogue up.

    Q – So no formal recognition?

    GR – Not until there is a state to recognise. But we have long stood for a 2 state solution and what we have said is that we want to have more open and regular dialogue with Palestinian Representatives.

    Presumably GR is doing pr for Labour on the basis that finance ministers are the right people inform the public about foreign policy. A leftist thought process.

    However I can't fault the excellent exposition of the Grant. I'm tempted to suggest that Minto is doing grumpy old man syndrome on the topic.

    Yesterday Labour implied in their manifesto release that they would recognise the state of Palestine although the wording was unclear and ambiguous. What is clear now is that the slippery wording was deliberately meant to mean all things to all people.

    They're establishment politicians, what do you expect?? A moon-walk?

    138 other countries have recognised Palestine as a state and haven’t had the “problem” of recognition that Grant Robertson has manufactured for Labour.

    Good point but it could be valid to dispose of them by assigning them to the category flakey. I'm inclined to be agnostic on this one. Wearing my Green hat I'd assert the relevant principle: any political group with a tradition of national identity in their collective reality – even if merely aspirational – has an inherent right to collective recognition of their common identity.

    • SPC 12.1

      Meanwhile Israel is no longer recognising some of those converting to Judaism and becoming Rabbi's as eligible to for migration to Israel for this years sukkoth.

      https://www.ynetnews.com/article/skieqtk16

      It appears to be the beginning of a gambit (with the change to the basic law) to question the eligibility of those with a Jewish grandfather to become citizens.

    • Ad 12.2

      All the Palestinians got from Oslo was KFC in Ramallah.

      • SPC 12.2.1

        No, they got an offer of land for peace (most of the West Bank and Gaza) in 2000, with East Jerusalem as a capital. And Arafat rejected it because he also wanted right of return to Israel for the 1948 refugees.

        A mistake.

        Then his successor allowed Hamas to compete in PA elections, despite the fact they did not accept the Oslo Accords setting up the PA. Then Hamas won and there have been no elections since – soon to be a multiple decade thing.

        • Ad 12.2.1.1

          What they were offered was one thing, but they definitely got KFC.

          And when Israel and Saudi Arabia sign their full security and diplomatic pact, they both do a full end-run around Jordan's historic claims which could have supported Palestine.

          House of Saud may as well be the Harkkonens for the play they are doing to bind US, Israel and Saudi Arabia together.

          https://www.reuters.com/world/us-saudi-defence-pact-tied-israel-deal-palestinian-demands-put-aside-2023-09-29/

          • SPC 12.2.1.1.1

            The mere suggestion of SA going with an alternative to the US dollar/swift axis towards China …. and a full guarantee of US security ... tied to a SA-Israel deal to ensure that the GOP is enraptured to full accord.

            I doubt they will touch on the Jordan role as to Temple regime co-operation (remnant of the international city concept of 1947).

            Nor on any peace outcome between Israelis and Palestinians, not when the Israeli right has eretz Israel (permanent occupation without West Bank Arab citizens) with a united Jerusalem capital aspiration and SA will still officially support a two state outcome with East Jerusalem as a capital for a new one.

            So what is the Israeli-SA angle that would allow the GOP to accept this .(make it bi-partisan)?

            First SA recognition of Israel. Second SA aid to the PA that comes with strings as to how the PA operates (no reward to families of those who do bad things, but welfare to all families in need)(end to anti Jewish Semite propaganda in education)(one control of the gun)(WB PA elections)(PA regards all 1948 refugees as Palestinian citizens and no longer refugees and gets the AL to go along with this and allow them rights of residency, allowed to leave the camps).

            In return Israel will have to promise to play nice (…..

            The consequences of this going wrong – Jordan left with the Palestinian baby – Hashemite dynasty and PLO 1970's state away from state discord. The Temple run by Zionists for Zionists and invasion plans from the east via Iraq.

    • SPC 12.3

      New Zealand’s ruling Labour Party plans to recognize the State of Palestine if it is re-elected on October 14.

      The Labour Party’s commitment entails extending an invitation to the head of the General Delegation of Palestine, allowing them to present their credentials as an Ambassador to New Zealand.

      https://www.palestinechronicle.com/its-official-new-zealands-ruling-party-commits-to-recognizing-palestine-if-re-elected/sharethis sharing button

      New Zealand’s ruling Labour Party plans to recognise the State of Palestine if it is re-elected on 14 October.

      The Labour Party’s commitment entails extending an invitation to the head of the General Delegation of Palestine, allowing them to present their credentials as an Ambassador to New Zealand

      https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231002-new-zealands-labour-party-pledges-recognition-of-palestine-if-re-elected/

      The presumption is allowing the representative to present their credentials is formal recognition, Labour have managed to make it a process, showing all the innovation required to be seen as a sophisticated player in the international community.

      • Dennis Frank 12.3.1

        Fair point there. Funny how Minto doesn't see it eh? Doing the 2-step with Oz as interim measure is genuine lateral thinking. yes

        • SPC 12.3.1.1

          His Excellency Izzat Salah Abdulhadi is the Head of the General Delegation of Palestine to Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific.

          In 2018 and 2021 Labor’s national conference backed a resolution that “supports the recognition and right of Israel and Palestine to exist as two states within secure and recognised borders” and “calls on the next Labor government to recognise Palestine as a state”.

          But those resolutions were passed when Labor was not in government, and the foreign affairs minister, Penny Wong, has so far declined to commit to a timeframe for recognising a Palestinian state.

          https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/06/australia-should-recognise-state-of-palestine-as-part-of-fair-go-ethos-de-facto-ambassador-says

          • Dennis Frank 12.3.1.1.1

            Good reporting as it provides essential context, thus meaning relevant to any observer. Wonder why Albo is so hesitant to proceed.

            That bit at the end of the Guardian report about Israel's stance being peace will only come via agreement between Palestine & Israel is rather disingenuous. True on the face of it yet it masks the role of peacemakers as brokers of a deal.

            Biden lacks the ambition to go down in history as the magical transformer of the status quo, seemingly. Same for the UN head. Sad.

  13. Dennis Frank 13

    Brilliant exposition on the meanings of Te Tiriti: https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2023/10/03/elizabeth-rata-two-treaties-of-waitangi-the-articles-treaty-and-the-principles-treaty/

    In inventing and consolidating the Principles, advocates for a kinship-based political structure have used traditional ideology to provide a timeless, spiritually authorised quality to their very time-bound interests.

    The erroneous partnership Principle is given the greatest weight, opening up a wide backdoor to power. Tribal corporations can now move beyond their economic interests to demand political power – to be entrenched first as co-governance, then as tribal sovereignty.

    How do you get people to believe in an invention and then to agree to its consolidation in legislation? Retribalists simply used age-old strategies.

    She presents a strategic triad used to drive novelty into our traditional stasis, then:

    Embedding one of those partners in the status of indigeneity with the other partner an intruder into Arcadia expands the moral distinction into a timeless mythical realm. Romantic evocations of the evil coloniser and the indigenous colonised provide a more seductive narrative for the nation’s collective memory than the more prosaic fact that, from the thirteen century to the present, all New Zealanders are settlers. Our history is one of waves of settlers. It is a shared experience that trumps an arbitrary division into the indigenous on the one hand and all other settlers on the other, but language control is most successful when it evokes the sacred.

    The interface between the sacred and politics is a mental shared space where politicos rarely go, yet salient to the issues. She extends triad to tetrad:

    It is in the revelation of sacred meaning that the fourth strategy has proved to be most effective. Today’s secular priests – the activist judges, tribalist law professors, and lawyer-politicians – have claimed the authority to interpret the truth from the Treaty runes.

    Ethos usually emerges from mythos, morality generates in consequences of like-minded ethos, then you get articulated laws. Co-governance as a principle is mired in deep context. No clear common ground in legislative application of the principle thus far!

  14. Kat 14

    This in the Herald is not paywalled and a must read.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-roundup-ten-reasons-labours-support-has-halved/3I3F36OCRFFB3PPCIKZL2TH6VI/

    The bold headline at the end stating "Labour needs honest soul-searching about its defeat" at this stage of the election cycle proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the fear mongering, manipulation and orchestration of disinformation, misinformation and general sycophantic editorials amount to nothing less than 'quid pro quo' by the big end of town.

    If there is ever a bloody civil uprising in this country as many predict, I fear for the likes of Bryce Edwards head……..

  15. ianmac 15

    The Judge of Trumps trial has declared that 80% of the charges are outside the Statute of Limitations. Therefore he will evade accountability.

    • Ad 15.1

      I think you'll find it's Trump's team that have asserted that, not a ruling from the judge.

  16. ianmac 16

    Yes Ad. That was a quote from Trump outside the Court. And by the looks on the faces on faces of his team they were aghast. Sorry that I was ill informed.

  17. randal.mcmurpy 17

    nationals are a gang of clowns just this side of the freak show and not up to government.

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    1 week ago
  • Unravelling the String of State: New Zealand Sovereignty and the Treaty of Waitangi

    Oh dear. Sometimes people just need to prod the sleeping dog. We currently have a parliamentary dispute over the nature of the 1840 Treaty of Waitangi, as signed between the British Crown and New Zealand Maori: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/526451/sovereignty-debate-split-on-party-lines Specifically, the National Government takes the traditional view that Maori ceded sovereignty ...
    1 week ago
  • Rigour, PLEASE

    You may have noticed I have been taking my time getting home. You may have wondered if that might have anything to do with our brave little nation being constitutionally and morally abused by this woeful excuse for a government. It does. I have enjoyed being able to turn the ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 week ago
  • Making A Difference.

    The Jacinda and Ashley Show: Before the neoliberals could come up with a plausible reason for letting thousands of their fellow citizens perish, the Ardern-led government, backed by the almost forgotten power of an unapologetically interventionist state, was producing changes in the real world – changes that were, very obviously, saving ...
    1 week ago

  • Government progresses response to Abuse in Care recommendations

    A Crown Response Office is being established within the Public Service Commission to drive the Government’s response to the Royal Commission into Abuse in Care. “The creation of an Office within a central Government agency was a key recommendation by the Royal Commission’s final report.  “It will have the mandate ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Passport wait times back on-track

    Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says passport processing has returned to normal, and the Department of Internal Affairs [Department] is now advising customers to allow up to two weeks to receive their passport. “I am pleased that passport processing is back at target service levels and the Department ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • New appointments to the FMA board

    Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister has today announced three new appointments and one reappointment to the Financial Markets Authority (FMA) board. Tracey Berry, Nicholas Hegan and Mariette van Ryn have been appointed for a five-year term ending in August 2029, while Chris Swasbrook, who has served as a board member ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • District Court judges appointed

    Attorney-General Hon Judith Collins today announced the appointment of two new District Court judges. The appointees, who will take up their roles at the Manukau Court and the Auckland Court in the Accident Compensation Appeal Jurisdiction, are: Jacqui Clark Judge Clark was admitted to the bar in 1988 after graduating ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Government makes it faster and easier to invest in New Zealand

    Associate Minister of Finance David Seymour is encouraged by significant improvements to overseas investment decision timeframes, and the enhanced interest from investors as the Government continues to reform overseas investment. “There were about as many foreign direct investment applications in July and August as there was across the six months ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • New Zealand to join Operation Olympic Defender

    New Zealand has accepted an invitation to join US-led multi-national space initiative Operation Olympic Defender, Defence Minister Judith Collins announced today. Operation Olympic Defender is designed to coordinate the space capabilities of member nations, enhance the resilience of space-based systems, deter hostile actions in space and reduce the spread of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government commits to ‘stamping out’ foot and mouth disease

    Biosecurity Minister Andrew Hoggard says that a new economic impact analysis report reinforces this government’s commitment to ‘stamp out’ any New Zealand foot and mouth disease incursion. “The new analysis, produced by the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research, shows an incursion of the disease in New Zealand would have ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Improving access to finance for Kiwis

    5 September 2024  The Government is progressing further reforms to financial services to make it easier for Kiwis to access finance when they need it, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says.  “Financial services are foundational for economic success and are woven throughout our lives. Without access to finance our ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Prime Minister pays tribute to Kiingi Tuheitia

    As Kiingi Tuheitia Pootatau Te Wherowhero VII is laid to rest today, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has paid tribute to a leader whose commitment to Kotahitanga will have a lasting impact on our country. “Kiingi Tuheitia was a humble leader who served his people with wisdom, mana and an unwavering ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Resource Management reform to make forestry rules clearer

    Forestry Minister Todd McClay today announced proposals to reform the resource management system that will provide greater certainty for the forestry sector and help them meet environmental obligations.   “The Government has committed to restoring confidence and certainty across the sector by removing unworkable regulatory burden created by the previous ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • More choice and competition in building products

    A major shake-up of building products which will make it easier and more affordable to build is on the way, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Today we have introduced legislation that will improve access to a wider variety of quality building products from overseas, giving Kiwis more choice and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Joint Statement between the Republic of Korea and New Zealand 4 September 2024, Seoul

    On the occasion of the official visit by the Right Honourable Prime Minister Christopher Luxon of New Zealand to the Republic of Korea from 4 to 5 September 2024, a summit meeting was held between His Excellency President Yoon Suk Yeol of the Republic of Korea (hereinafter referred to as ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Comprehensive Strategic Partnership the goal for New Zealand and Korea

    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Republic of Korea, Yoon Suk Yeol. “Korea and New Zealand are likeminded democracies and natural partners in the Indo Pacific. As such, we have decided to advance discussions on elevating the bilateral relationship to a Comprehensive ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • International tourism continuing to bounce back

    Results released today from the International Visitor Survey (IVS) confirm international tourism is continuing to bounce back, Tourism and Hospitality Minister Matt Doocey says. The IVS results show that in the June quarter, international tourism contributed $2.6 billion to New Zealand’s economy, an increase of 17 per cent on last ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government confirms RMA reforms to drive primary sector efficiency

    The Government is moving to review and update national level policy directives that impact the primary sector, as part of its work to get Wellington out of farming. “The primary sector has been weighed down by unworkable and costly regulation for too long,” Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says.  “That is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Weak grocery competition underscores importance of cutting red tape

    The first annual grocery report underscores the need for reforms to cut red tape and promote competition, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “The report paints a concerning picture of the $25 billion grocery sector and reinforces the need for stronger regulatory action, coupled with an ambitious, economy-wide ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government moves to lessen burden of reliever costs on ECE services

    Associate Education Minister David Seymour says the Government has listened to the early childhood education sector’s calls to simplify paying ECE relief teachers. Today two simple changes that will reduce red tape for ECEs are being announced, in the run-up to larger changes that will come in time from the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Over 2,320 people engage with first sector regulatory review

    Regulation Minister David Seymour says there has been a strong response to the Ministry for Regulation’s public consultation on the early childhood education regulatory review, affirming the need for action in reducing regulatory burden. “Over 2,320 submissions have been received from parents, teachers, centre owners, child advocacy groups, unions, research ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government backs women in horticulture

    “The Government is empowering women in the horticulture industry by funding an initiative that will support networking and career progression,” Associate Minister of Agriculture, Nicola Grigg says.  “Women currently make up around half of the horticulture workforce, but only 20 per cent of leadership roles which is why initiatives like this ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government to pause freshwater farm plan rollout

    The Government will pause the rollout of freshwater farm plans until system improvements are finalised, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds and Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard announced today. “Improving the freshwater farm plan system to make it more cost-effective and practical for farmers is a priority for this ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Milestone reached for fixing the Holidays Act 2003

    Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety Brooke van Velden says yesterday Cabinet reached another milestone on fixing the Holidays Act with approval of the consultation exposure draft of the Bill ready for release next week to participants.  “This Government will improve the Holidays Act with the help of businesses, workers, and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • New priorities to protect future of conservation

    Toitū te marae a Tāne Mahuta me Hineahuone, toitū te marae a Tangaroa me Hinemoana, toitū te taiao, toitū te tangata. The Government has introduced clear priorities to modernise Te Papa Atawhai - The Department of Conservation’s protection of our natural taonga. “Te Papa Atawhai manages nearly a third of our ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Faster 110km/h speed limit to accelerate Kāpiti

    A new 110km/h speed limit for the Kāpiti Expressway Road of National Significance (RoNS) has been approved to reduce travel times for Kiwis travelling in and out of Wellington, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • IVL increase to ensure visitors contribute more to New Zealand

    The International Visitor Conservation and Tourism Levy (IVL) will be raised to $100 to ensure visitors contribute to public services and high-quality experiences while visiting New Zealand, Minister for Tourism and Hospitality Matt Doocey and Minister of Conservation Tama Potaka say. “The Government is serious about enabling the tourism sector ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Delivering priority connections for the West Coast

    A record $255 million for transport investment on the West Coast through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will strengthen the region’s road and rail links to keep people connected and support the region’s economy, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “The Government is committed to making sure that every ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Road and rail reliability a focus for Wellington

    A record $3.3 billion of transport investment in Greater Wellington through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will increase productivity and reduce travel times, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Delivering infrastructure to increase productivity and economic growth is a priority for our Government. We're focused on delivering transport projects ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Record investment to boost economic and housing growth in the Waikato

    A record $1.9 billion for transport investment in the Waikato through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will create a more efficient, safe, and resilient roading network that supports economic growth and productivity, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “With almost a third of the country’s freight travelling into, out ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Building reliable and efficient roading for Taranaki

    A record $808 million for transport investment in Taranaki through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will support economic growth and productivity, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Taranaki’s roads carry a high volume of freight from primary industries and it’s critical we maintain efficient connections across the region to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Supporting growth and resilience in Otago and Southland

    A record $1.4 billion for transport investment in Otago and Southland through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will create a more resilient and efficient network that supports economic growth and productivity, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Transport is a critical enabler for economic growth and productivity in Otago ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Delivering connected and resilient roading for Northland

    A record $991 million for transport investment in Northland through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will strengthen the region’s connections and support economic growth and productivity, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “We are committed to making sure that every transport dollar is spent wisely on the projects and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Top of the South to benefit from reliable transport infrastructure

    A record $479 million for transport investment across the top of the South Island through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will build a stronger road network that supports primary industries and grows the economy, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “We’re committed to making sure that every dollar is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government delivering reliable roads for Manawatū-Whanganui

    A record $1.6 billion for transport investment in Manawatū-Whanganui through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will strengthen the region’s importance as a strategic freight hub that boosts economic growth, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Delivering infrastructure to increase productivity and economic growth is a priority for our Government. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Restoring connections in Hawke’s Bay

    A record $657 million for transport investment in the Hawke’s Bay through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will support recovery from cyclone damage and build greater resilience into the network to support economic growth and productivity, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “We are committed to making sure that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Transport resilience a priority for Gisborne

    A record $255 million for transport investment in Gisborne through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will support economic growth and restore the cyclone-damaged network, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “With $255 million of investment over the next three years, we are committed to making sure that every transport ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Prioritising growth and reduced travel times in Canterbury

    A record $1.8 billion for transport investment Canterbury through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will boost economic growth and productivity and reduce travel times, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Christchurch is the economic powerhouse of the South Island, and transport is a critical enabler for economic growth and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Supporting growth and freight in the Bay of Plenty

    A record $1.9 billion for transport investment in the Bay of Plenty through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will boost economic growth and unlock land for thousands of houses, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Transport is a critical enabler for economic growth and productivity in the Bay of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Getting transport back on track in Auckland

    A record $8.4 billion for transport investment in Auckland through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will deliver the infrastructure our rapidly growing region needs to support economic growth and reduce travel times, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Aucklanders rejected the previous government’s transport policies which resulted in non-delivery, phantoms projects, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Record investment to get transport back on track

    A record $32.9 billion investment in New Zealand’s transport network through the 2024-27 National Land Transport Programme (NLTP) will create a more reliable and efficient transport network that boosts economic growth and productivity, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “New Zealanders rejected the previous government’s transport policies which resulted in non-delivery, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Consultation is open on gambling harm strategy

    Minister for Mental Health Matt Doocey has welcomed the start of Gambling Harm Awareness Week by encouraging New Zealanders to have their say on the next three-year strategy to prevent and minimise gambling harm.  “While many New Zealanders enjoy gambling as a pastime without issue, the statistics are clear that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • JOINT STATEMENT FOR THE OFFICIAL VISIT OF NEW ZEALAND PRIME MINISTER CHRISTOPHER LUXON

    1.    Prime Minister YAB Dato’ Seri Anwar Ibrahim hosted Prime Minister Rt. Hon Christopher Luxon on an Official Visit to Malaysia from 1 to 3 September 2024. Both leaders expressed appreciation for enduring and warm bilateral ties over 67 years of diplomatic relations. The Malaysia – New Zealand Strategic Partnership 2.    The ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago

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