Open Mike 03/12/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 3rd, 2016 - 95 comments
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95 comments on “Open Mike 03/12/2016 ”

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  1. Observer Tokoroa 1
    3 December 2016 at 7:09 am

    . The Betrayal of Cunliffe

    . Yesterday, I had a look at a Katipo Open Mike comment on here. He had a video link to David Cunliffe’s launch of the last Election.

    How the hell did we lose Cunliffe ? Why did we punish him ? Why did we disgrace him?

    The Labour Party was alive with Cunliffe. National hated him.

    As to Left and Right – its a stupid way of approaching elections – in my view. The approach should always be POLICY. For policy contains solutions.

    National rides high because it has a policy of giving increasing wealth to the wealthy. Labour should have a Policy of giving wealth to everybody. Especially to young emerging Kiwis – who are being slaughtered by National.

    Unaffordable Housing; unaffordable Rents; unaffordable tertiary degrees; unaffordable Heating; unafforable Food; mismanaged Crime; mismanaged Health; shocking Education stuff ups. The National disaster is endless.

    Lets get a few politicians who can speak with non fake belief and clarity. Let them talk as if they meant it. Let them shock the Nation with good policy. Roar like Lions; don’t squeak like mice.

    Follow the Cunliffe model. Which was, as far as I can see, the Model of the great Labour Politicians of the past. Great men – with great solutions. With a caucus of giants.

    • Stunned mullet 1.1
      3 December 2016 at 7:24 am

      Comedy gold.

      • Observer Tokoroa 1.1.1
        3 December 2016 at 7:54 am

        . Comedy Gold

        . You are so right Mullet.
        John Key is an actor; a hoax; but he is good at rounding up small minds with small outlooks.

    • Olwyn 1.2
      3 December 2016 at 8:47 am

      I am not laughing Observer Tokoroa – I think your comment is spot-on. The existence of the Alliance played a big part in Helen Clark’s being elected – it showed supporters that she would not be able to cave to the right the minute she got in, even if she had wanted to. The loss of Cunliffe means the loss of that kind of assurance, and the Greens cannot make up the difference. It was not Cunliffe’s fault that Labour lost in 2014, it was the whole parliamentary party’s fault. The voters being seriously harmed by the things on your list can only be reassured by having the confidence to believe that Labour is on their side. The sidelining of Cunliffe dents that confidence.

      • mosa 1.2.1
        3 December 2016 at 4:49 pm

        It was not just the Alliance that helped Helen in 1999 but the effects of nine years of hard right , clinical National government and who can forget the lovely Jenny who was promising more of the same.

        It was a hard road back after near annihilation in 1990 and as now an electorate that bought into tax cuts and a illusion of a privately run public service where making a profit was the goal and still had the peoples welfare as its concern which turned out to be false after the much vaunted “Mother of all budgets”

        And MMP changed the whole political landscape and the all important party vote became the focus and minority government.

        And Winstons famous” vote for me to change the government” and then gave it a third term.

        Helen stood firm with poor polling numbers and went on to win three elections.

        • KJT 1.2.1.1
          3 December 2016 at 4:57 pm

          “after near annihilation in 1990”.

          After giving us 6 years of Neo-Liberal mayhem, dont forget!

          Those that think the voters liked the Neo-liberal prescription, should remember what it did to the Labour vote, in 1990.

          Which is why National now are very good at keeping the more obvious parts of our former democratic socialist State, while, like rats, they gnaw away at the underpinnings.

    • halfcrown 1.3
      3 December 2016 at 8:55 am

      100% Tok

    • Paul 1.4
      3 December 2016 at 10:39 am

      He was gunned down by the mum.
      Armstrong’s lowest moment.

    • mary_a 1.5
      3 December 2016 at 3:41 pm

      @ Observer Tokoroa (1) … 1000% with you there.

      • garibaldi 1.5.1
        3 December 2016 at 4:37 pm

        Right with you too OT.

      • Observer Tokoroa 1.5.2
        3 December 2016 at 5:17 pm

        .
        To whom thanks is due
        .
        Olwyn – Half Crown – Paul – Mary A.

        . 2017 is only a few days away. To attract people to good Policy we need an Authoritative Leader. One who uses few words. Words which carry and do not steal away shamefully or shyly into the ether.

        She or He does not need to debate with whatever person has been declared to be an interviewer. Tell them. Don’t debate them. Short pin-point words. For example: “We will establish realistic rentals which New Zealanders can afford from their low wages.”

        We will NOT subdise Land Lords in any way shape of form.

        We will make Landlords pay interest on their loans – so that they can be like the rest of New Zealand borrowers.

        We will thoroughly check out what each Landlord claims on their tax- so that they will be honourable and not commit fraud.

        He or She – must say it with authority. And invite Herself / Himself back for another nice interview in the near future.

        Underlying Philosophy: LandLords can only charge a reasonable rent based primarily on the minimum wage. However high earning renters would be expected to pay a higher percentage. Realism.

        .

  2. Pete George 2
    3 December 2016 at 7:37 am

    Someone else who has a wider view of what ‘dirty politics’ can be:

    Māori Party co-leader Marama Fox’s only path back into Parliament may be through winning Ikaroa Rāwhiti, but says she will have to overcome “dirty politics” to do so.

    Ms Fox said the biggest challenge in the Ikaroa Rāwhiti electorate, which covers the southeast coast of the North Island, would be overcoming the “misinformation and dirty politics that gets played out up there”.

    Asked whether she was referring to current Ikaroa Rāwhiti MP Meka Whaitiri or her supporters, she responded by suggesting journalists look at the local paper.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/319226/'dirty-politics'-toughest-barrier-in-ikaroa-rawhiti-fox

    But hey, there could be a ‘Dirty Politics’ connection – Simon Lusk: Assessment on Meka Whaitiri is wrong

    I think Marama Fox is one of the more impressive MPs, especially as a rookie, who is prepared to represent her constituents strongly and passionately.

    • marty mars 2.1
      3 December 2016 at 9:52 am

      a wider view? what do you mean?

      • Morrissey 2.1.1
        3 December 2016 at 10:02 am

        He doesn’t actually know, marty.

        • marty mars 2.1.1.1
          3 December 2016 at 10:06 am

          he must mean something surely, otherwise why put it up – I suspect he’s trying to have a go at labour or the left or one of his many many many opponents – just trying to work out which way the peanut is falling.

          • Morrissey 2.1.1.1.1
            3 December 2016 at 10:11 am

            Actually, on reflection, I think you’re right. Pete is probably a bit more cynical than I give him credit for.

            • Sacha 2.1.1.1.1.1
              3 December 2016 at 10:49 am

              The beige badger has long been a useful ally for the rightie meme-merchants like Slater and Farrar who immediately pulled the ‘everyone does it’ line in the wake of Hager’s book. At least they knew what they were doing.

              • Pete George …
                3 December 2016 at 11:02 am

                That’s nonsense. I haven’t said everyone does it like they were doing it.

                But I have said that because they were crap anyone else less bad should not be criticised. It’s like if someone commits murder then any form of lesser assault doesn’t deserve criticism – which is stupid.

                • Sacha …
                  3 December 2016 at 11:20 am

                  “everyone does it *like they were doing it*”

                  Which is not what either the sewerbloggers said or what I wrote just up there a few pixels. False equivalence relied on them just saying the first part and relying on half-arsed reading to supply the rest. You truly are a man of the people.

                • marty mars …
                  3 December 2016 at 11:42 am

                  “But I have said that because they were crap anyone else less bad should not be criticised. It’s like if someone commits murder then any form of lesser assault doesn’t deserve criticism – which is stupid.”

                  I don’t understand what that means.

                  the 2 sentences you wrote are contradictory

      • Pete George 2.1.2
        3 December 2016 at 10:20 am

        Some people have gone to some lengths to claim that ‘dirty politics’ should only apply to their narrow definition.

        Playing dirty in politics has been around for a long time in many forms, and trying to limit it’s scope to one person’s book meme makes no sense.

        Marama Fox obviously sees dp outside of that,

        • Ad 2.1.2.1
          3 December 2016 at 10:28 am

          Go back and read Nicky Hager’s book Pete.
          Go back and read it.

          Seriously. Comparing minor parish handbags to be the same as Ede+Lusk+Whaleoil’s large-scale black ops shows you have a poor understanding of actual politics.

          • Paul 2.1.2.1.1
            3 December 2016 at 10:41 am

            He hasn’t read it.

          • Pete George 2.1.2.1.2
            3 December 2016 at 10:46 am

            I’ve read the book well enough, I got a copy as soon as it was available (I had one on order).

            The scale of Ede+Lusk+Whaleoil’s black ops were unprecedented (as far as is publicly known). And I have often condemned that – Slater reacted to the extent that he tried to help others set me up and imprison me, or at least that was their threat.

            But it’s pathetic to say that black ops have to be as bad as they were to qualify as dirty.

            • Ad 2.1.2.1.2.1
              3 December 2016 at 12:04 pm

              Comparing that scale of dirty politics to what you are citing in the media is itself dirty politics: false equivalence is the low art of the smear.

            • Paul 2.1.2.1.2.2
              3 December 2016 at 2:01 pm

              You talk nonsense.
              But then I think that you know this.
              You’re just a better mannered troll.

        • Psycho Milt 2.1.2.2
          3 December 2016 at 10:28 am

          Some people have gone to some lengths to claim that ‘dirty politics’ should only apply to their narrow definition.

          I expect you do think of it in those terms. My memory of it is of people schooling you multiple times (to no avail, natch) in how “dirty politics” is about deceitful, intimidating or corrupt practice, not about somebody calling you a rude name on a comments thread. You proved as impervious to insight as usual.

        • marty mars 2.1.2.3
          3 December 2016 at 10:58 am

          so a politician mentioning dirty politics in politics is not related to a book that describes techniques and facts around dirty politics in politics. riiight

        • Stephanie Rodgers 2.1.2.4
          3 December 2016 at 12:46 pm

          Some people have Pete George has gone to some lengths to claim that ‘dirty politics’ should only apply to their narrow definition be defined so broadly it’s completely meaningless.

        • HDCAFriendlyTroll 2.1.2.5
          3 December 2016 at 4:36 pm

          Playing dirty in politics has been around for a long time in many forms.

          Indeed it has.

          https://www.amazon.com/48-Laws-Power-Robert-Greene/dp/0140280197

    • marty mars 2.2
      3 December 2016 at 11:09 am

      Why are you linking to that disgustingly dirty lusk?

      Your whole comment is a Trojan horse – a fake comment (in that the purpose of putting the comment in is actually not related to the content of the comment but rather relates to a pet peeve of yours) and you double down (and try to be knowledgeable) by linking to lusk. How many fails within one comment pete – really? go home and rethink your infantile strategy mate.

      • Pete George 2.2.1
        3 December 2016 at 2:30 pm

        “your infantile strategy”

        You do irony very well, but I’m not sure that you’re aware of it.

        • marty mars 2.2.1.1
          3 December 2016 at 2:38 pm

          by your lack of discussion with the points I raised, it shows I am correct – funny how you use dirty tricks like distraction and dead cat throwing to change the discussion so that you never have to front up to anything – rethink your infantile strategy – you are a known idiot here bub.

    • save nz 2.3
      3 December 2016 at 12:50 pm

      Marama’s great if you think selling out by supporting the Natz for 8 years is ok for Maori. BTW – truth is not dirty politics.

  3. Morrissey 3
    3 December 2016 at 8:17 am

    Great Moments in Broadcasting. NOT.
    No. 2: Noelle McCarthy’s patsy interview with Mark Bowden    


    “Summer Noelle”, National Radio, Tuesday 8 January 2013, 9:09 a.m.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-08012013/#comment-570645

    Great Moments in Broadcasting. NOT is an occasional series highlighting some of the worst moments in our pretty shameful history of broadcasting mediocrity and downright failure.

  4. Morrissey 4
    3 December 2016 at 9:12 am

    Kim Hill spouts braindead neocon ideology yet again
    RNZ National, Saturday 3 December 2016

    Kim Hill interviewed an interesting guest at 8:25 a.m. this morning….

    Olivier Weber has been a war correspondent for 25 years,covering conflict in Central Asia, Africa, the Middle East and Iraq. He was an assistant professor at the Institut d’études politiques de Paris, President of the Prize Joseph Kessel and former Ambassador of France at large. Olivier Weber has won several national and international awards for literature and journalism, in particular for his stories on Afghanistan and for his books on war. His writing has been translated into a dozen languages. He is touring New Zealand as a guest of Alliance Francaise and will speak in Auckland, Wellington, Palmerston North, Nelson and Christchurch.

    Sadly, though, Kim Hill doesn’t seem capable of getting through a political interview without indulging in ritual obeisances to prevailing government messaging. This morning she pretended to be astonished when her guest said that the U.S./U.K. aggression against Iraq had been nothing less than a disaster.

    I sent her the following email….

    Your politically loaded question to Olivier Weber

    Dear Kim,

    You asked Olivier Weber, in apparent high seriousness: “So no matter how bad the leader—Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Bashar al-Assad—you shouldn’t go in and get rid of him?” You forgot to mention another convenient focus of Western wrath: Robert Mugabe.

    It’s interesting that you chose a triumvirate of officially ordained enemies. Surely it would be equally valid to “go in and get rid of” the likes of Barack Obama, Binyamin Netanyahu and King Salman. Why would you not choose one of those names?

    Yours in astonishment at the political bias of our media,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    • ropata 4.1
      3 December 2016 at 10:58 am

      Off base Morrissey. Kim Hill is the best interviewer in NZ. She asks tough questions of both sides, that’s why FJK won’t go on her programme but he will go on softcock Veitchy on Sport

      • Morrissey 4.1.1
        3 December 2016 at 7:48 pm

        I share your high opinion of Kim Hill, ropata. As you say, she does ask tough questions, and dullards like John Key are rightly frightened of her. Key no doubt heard, or was informed of, her evisceration of John Howard a few years ago.

        But, as this morning’s failure shows only too starkly, she has some flaws. One of the worst of those flaws is a tendency to thoughtlessly reiterate official lies and, as shown by her careful selection of three official enemies to illustrate “bad leaders”, a crucial failure of moral courage. in 2003 John Pilger memorably keelhauled her for exactly that behaviour. “You waste my time because you have not prepared for this interview,” he angrily told her. “This interview frankly is a disgrace.”….

        https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/face-to-face-with-kim-hill-john-pilger-2003

    • Ad 4.2
      3 December 2016 at 12:05 pm

      god that’s the worst case of false equivalence i’ve ever seen.

      Grow a brain, and some judgement while you’re at it.

  5. stever 5
    3 December 2016 at 9:21 am

    Why do we pay the PM, judges etc. twice what they get in the UK, for example?

    http://www.noted.co.nz/currently/social-issues/a-year-of-living-shamefully-new-zealands-dirty-secrets/

    • Carolyn_nth 5.1
      3 December 2016 at 9:34 am

      Ah. Snap.

    • Olwyn 5.2
      3 December 2016 at 9:46 am

      Gosh that article is simply jaw-dropping. I am reminded of what happens to animal colonies in Dawkins’ The Selfish Gene when the selfish come to dominate a previously altruistic colony.

      • Incognito 5.2.1
        3 December 2016 at 10:05 am

        You are so right! If there were ever a textbook example why meritocracy may sound appealing but clearly has unintended consequences it is ‘god-like’ Richard Dawkins. On top of that, he gives scientists and intellectuals a bad name.

    • Pat 5.3
      3 December 2016 at 10:05 am

      completely unjustifiable…but not news. Douglas and co instituted this grand con back in the day and it has been gleefully expanded ever since (and as we know “wages are sticky’)…..it will be one hell of a shit fight to bring these back to realistic (and a true reflection of their capabilities) level.

    • ropata 5.4
      3 December 2016 at 12:19 pm

      +1 Brilliant, thanks for sharing

    • save nz 5.5
      3 December 2016 at 12:57 pm

      Thanks Stever – def worth reading. North and South have been doing some decent commentary of late about real issues not just sucking up and sending out propaganda drivel like many of their peer publications.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.6
      3 December 2016 at 1:14 pm

      Still say we should have the people of NZ define how much public servants are paid. They are, after all, the employers.

      Simple referendum every three years should do it.

      • mary_a 5.6.1
        3 December 2016 at 4:18 pm

        @ DTB (5.6) … Agree.

        Might I also suggest a people’s (that’s us) performance assessment regularly of active politicians (representatives from the whole political spectrum), to hold them to account. It’s done in the private sector by employers to employees (which the above are), so why not at both central and local body government level?

        If our elected representatives knew they were being assessed on a regular basis by a changing panel of independent assessors made up of Kiwis from all walks of life, economic and social structures, selected along the lines similar to that of a jury, it might make them a tad more honest, respectful of their positions and responsibilities, giving them a whole new work ethic, concentrating on delivering the goods, or else!

        Of course individual assessment level rate results would reflect in their pay and perks!

  6. ianmac 6
    3 December 2016 at 9:26 am

    Keeping an eye on Gareth Morgan’s Opportunity Party. Interesting ideas. A Policy due out on Wednesday.
    Current topics include:
    Money isn’t everything – unless you don’t have any.
    Kim Hill grills Andrew Little on Tax Loopholes.
    Government must stop subsidising Agriculture.

  7. Carolyn_nth 7
    3 December 2016 at 9:33 am

    This on Noted, reprinted from North &South earlier in November, is just jaw droppingly damning about the state of bloated wealthy elites in NZ. That compares badly with the poverty, homelessness and low wages in the country. Our wealthiest top earners, earn way more than people in equivalent jobs in the UK, and in comparison with higher general wages in the UK.

    by Graham Adams

    … British PM’s. Theresa May, who heads a nuclear-armed world power of 64 million people, with GDP of $US2.6 trillion, is paid £143,462 – the equivalent of $NZ244,432. Our PM is paid $459,739 for governing a nation of 4.5 million, with GDP of $US235 billion and a skeletal air force and navy.

    Our Deputy PM is also paid substantially more than his British counterpart. And according to a State Services Commission breakdown in late 2015, there are 11 state sector and public service chief executives in New Zealand earning more than $600,000 a year – including Accident Compensation Corporation chief executive Scott Pickering, who earns $760,000 to $769,999; University of Auckland vice-chancellor Stuart McCutcheon, $680,000 to $689,999; New Zealand Transport Agency chief executive Geoff Dangerfield $660,000 to $669,000; and Police Commissioner Mike Bush $680,000 to $689,999.

    • Paul 7.1
      3 December 2016 at 11:35 am

      <All these outlandish salaries are paid, of course, by a nation with a relatively low average wage and per capita GDP. If news about our overpaid public servants and politicians gets out to the world following stories of families living in cars, the demolition of our reputation for being egalitarian will be complete.

      The appalling living conditions of some of our poorest citizens has been extensively documented by Al Jazeera, the Guardian and others. They haven’t gone unnoticed by the UN either. In May, it blasted the government for allowing children to live in cars, as a breach of the United Nations Convention of the Rights of the Child, to which we are a signatory. It requires, strangely enough, that children should be able to live in houses.

      In October, UNICEF said it was deeply concerned about New Zealand’s persistently high rates of child poverty.

      To add to this slew of poor publicity, Auckland’s grotesquely overvalued real estate has repeatedly made the international news, which is another blow to our image as egalitarian.

      And then there is the reporting of our high suicide rates and the disproportionate representation of Maori in our prisons.

      A clean, green, family-friendly, hard-working, incorruptible, egalitarian Godzone?… We’re taking a beating out there, folks.

    • Ad 7.2
      3 December 2016 at 12:09 pm

      Geoff Dangerfield hasn’t been the Chief Executive of NZTA for quite a while.

      I don’t think most public servants in New Zealand are overpaid.

      I do think 85% of New Zealanders in the private sector are underpaid. That’s more of the problem.

      And of course, no-one gets to critique the private sector anywhere near a much as the public sector, because only public sector salary bands are published.

      Wrong target.

      • Carolyn_nth 7.2.1
        3 December 2016 at 1:01 pm

        But the article was focusing on the top echelon of people on the public service/sector payroll, beginning with PMs – and comparing with the UK.

        And comparing average pay for people in UK with NZ – so a fair target.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.2.2
        3 December 2016 at 1:20 pm

        I don’t think most public servants in New Zealand are overpaid.

        Most aren’t. In fact, most of them will be underpaid so that the few at the top can get massive salaries.

        I do think 85% of New Zealanders in the private sector are underpaid. That’s more of the problem.

        Again, the ones at the bottom are underpaid while the ones at the top are over paid.

        • Psych nurse 7.2.2.1
          3 December 2016 at 5:33 pm

          In my youth secondary teachers and police were paid the same as MP’s and nurses just behind.Half that now.

          • Draco T Bastard 7.2.2.1.1
            3 December 2016 at 6:37 pm

            I think that teachers should be the highest paid of our public servants as they’re so damn important.

        • Craig H 7.2.2.2
          4 December 2016 at 12:22 am

          As a public servant who is not a manager, I agree public servants are underpaid at the bottom.

    • save nz 7.3
      3 December 2016 at 1:01 pm

      Also the council CEO structures and pay is ridiculous for the terrible job they are doing. The Wellington CEO giving 8 million dollar payments behind everyone’s back to Singapore Airlines, the Auckland CEO has led a horrendous public rating against the council as well as being oblivious to the billion dollar IT disaster and burgeoning rates of private lawyers defending the councils ridiculous position on things such as stealing the harbour for Ports of Auckland.

      • alwyn 7.3.1
        3 December 2016 at 2:51 pm

        ” The Wellington CEO giving 8 million dollar payments behind everyone’s back to Singapore Airlines”.
        It wasn’t behind EVERYONES back apparently. All the ratepayers of course and most of the Council but it seems that the then Mayor, Green Party member Wade-Brown, Current Mayor, Labour Party member Lester, and then Councillor Jo Coughlan were in the act.

        I certainly got Helene Ritchie justifiably upset.
        http://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=92988
        “Statement from Cr Ritchie
        “I am calling on Councillor Lester to resign forthwith over his role in the Singapore Airlines negotiation and money promised.”

        Lester in particular seems to have been very deep in the deal
        http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/84679670/wellingtons-multimillion-dollar-singapore-airlines-subsidy-creates-almost-no-paper-trail
        “Justin Lester, who as deputy mayor was involved in the negotiations to bring Singapore Airlines to Wellington, defended the process, saying the spending was within Lavery’s authority.”

        One person commenting on the matter said
        https://croakingcassandra.com/2016/09/29/subsidy-city-and-the-counc/
        “But in fact the real responsibility here surely rests with the Council itself, and even more so on this particular occasion with the leading cabal – the outgoing Greens mayor Celia Wade-Brown, the Labour Party Deputy Mayor Justin Lester, and councillor Jo Coughlan. Lester was apparently a key figure in the discussion over this new subsidy, and Coughlan has chaired the Economic Growth and Arts Committee which seems to deal with such matters.”

        I doubt we are ever going to get the full details of the affair but it really wasn’t Lavery’s exclusive work.

  8. Sanctuary 8
    3 December 2016 at 9:50 am

    How do you think the NZ parliamentary Labour party would react to the NZ branch of Momentum being set up?

    http://www.peoplesmomentum.com/about

    “…What does Momentum want to do?

    Organise with communities across the country to put forward Labour’s ambitious plan for Britain and secure a Labour Government that:

    Redistributes wealth and power from the few to the many;
    Puts people and planet before profit and narrow corporate interests;
    Builds a society free from all types of discrimination;
    Invests to create high-quality jobs and infrastructure;
    Reverses the privatisation of railways, the energy sector and public services;
    Provides protection at work and strong collective bargaining to end workplace injustices;
    Provides decent homes for all in both the public and private sector.

    Transform Labour into a more open, member-­led party capable of winning elections.

    Bring together individuals and groups in our workplaces and communities to campaign and organise on the issues that matter to us…”

    New Zealand left desperately needs an organisation to re-energise Labour, act as a public space for left wing intellectual thought and be a vehicle that can again turn Labour into a vigorous change agent.

    .

    • Olwyn 8.1
      3 December 2016 at 11:42 am

      New Zealand left desperately needs an organisation to re-energise Labour, act as a public space for left wing intellectual thought and be a vehicle that can again turn Labour into a vigorous change agent.

      Sanctuary, if I believed I could trigger such a movement I would be doing it now. And if someone else gets one going, I will sign up in a flash.

      • BM 8.1.1
        3 December 2016 at 12:22 pm

        Why can’t you do it, what’s holding you back.?

      • Jenny Kirk 8.1.2
        3 December 2016 at 12:43 pm

        Olwyn, and Sanctuary et al – I sometimes think that maybe people just don’t know what goes on inside at a Labour Conference like the one held recently in Auckland. It was – mostly (except for confidential business) – held in the public eye, with the media there.

        But of course the opinionated media just doesn’t report on what could be done, it just grizzles at what it perceives Labour not doing.

        At the conference there were a number of participatory workshops which discussed such diverse subjects as Lifelong Learning, Child Well-Being in NZ, changing the way we measure economic success, facing the choice between two futures – inequality or invest in the future, building a rich ecosystem in NZ, and so on – along with organising the left into action.

        These topics – different wording, but similar ideas and concepts and discussion to those generated at the ESRA meeting, and mentioned in the Momentum Movement policy – are just the same sorts of ideas which Labour Party people discuss – and then act upon later on.

        So I have to ask – why don’t all of you who are looking around for that “new” “left” political organisation – join up with Labour, and help us with that very activity ?

        Too many people criticise Labour, without making any effort to help. Something a kaumatua said the other day rings bells with me “Too much hui, not enough doey”.

        To get rid of the neo-liberals and ShonKey – people need to get active, not just talk about it.

        • Stephanie Rodgers 8.1.2.1
          3 December 2016 at 12:48 pm

          That’s certainly one view of the conference.

        • Sanctuary 8.1.2.2
          3 December 2016 at 1:29 pm

          “…So I have to ask – why don’t all of you who are looking around for that “new” “left” political organisation – join up with Labour, and help us with that very activity …?”

          Because I can’t be bothered anymore at being being treated as unpaid help in election year and otherwise ignored?

        • Olwyn 8.1.2.3
          3 December 2016 at 2:23 pm

          An extra-parliamentary left-wing group along the lines of Momentum is not necessarily a competitor against the Labour Party – it instead presents a way in which a left leaning momentum can be built outside of the current structures, and exert some level of political force.

          • Carolyn_nth 8.1.2.3.1
            3 December 2016 at 2:28 pm

            I think NZ under MMP,is a different context from the UK electoral system. Momentum is a great initiative in the UK, aligned with Corbyn’s Labour. But I think in NZ, a popular people’s movement could incorporate people who vote Green, Labour, Mana, etc, or who want a better alternative to vote for.

            • Olwyn 8.1.2.3.1.1
              3 December 2016 at 2:47 pm

              …a popular people’s movement could incorporate people who vote Green, Labour, Mana, etc, or who want a better alternative to vote for

              That would be fine by me. Strengthening the broader left and offering a competing voice, with numbers behind it, to that of an often hostile media would be a good thing. Such a movement would not be in competition with any of the parties, but would allow all of them to know what people are thinking and wanting. Something like an expansion of and extension on the biggest TPP march.

        • KJT 8.1.2.4
          4 December 2016 at 11:30 am

          Because there is already a democratic left wing social and environmental sustainability, party.

          The Greens.

      • greywarshark 8.1.3
        3 December 2016 at 4:16 pm

        Olwyn
        Could we get one going with GiveaLittle? Or like most organisations do they think that politics is not a worthy charity? Would going with Gareth Morgan do as a stand in till something like Momentum could be set up? He is open to new ideas and if he fails eventually could invite people to join in what would be a ginger group. Or do it through Scoop which would encourage people to be interested in them and their sterling efforts, and carry an advertisement for Momentum or similar?

        • Olwyn 8.1.3.1
          3 December 2016 at 6:46 pm

          Thanks for the suggestion grey. I think you’d have to have something more or less off the ground before give-a-little campaigns would work. It is something I have thought about a number of times, but to be honest I am flummoxed as to where to begin.

    • Ad 8.2
      3 December 2016 at 12:11 pm

      Go ahead and give it a go.
      Go on.

  9. marty mars 9
    3 December 2016 at 10:27 am

    Do you or can you reject the orgy of consumerism that has just started? Really? You sure?

    Good article by George Monbiot from 2012!!!

    “So effectively have governments, the media and advertisers associated consumption with prosperity and happiness that to say these things is to expose yourself to opprobrium and ridicule. Witness last week’s Moral Maze programme, in which most of the panel lined up to decry the idea of consuming less, and to associate it, somehow, with authoritarianism(8). When the world goes mad, those who resist are denounced as lunatics.

    Bake them a cake, write them a poem, give them a kiss, tell them a joke, but for god’s sake stop trashing the planet to tell someone you care. All it shows is that you don’t.”

    http://www.monbiot.com/2012/12/10/the-gift-of-death/

  10. joe90 10
    3 December 2016 at 10:42 am

    From post truth to post fact.

    Trump’s campaign made a bet that enough voters didn’t (or couldn’t) tell the difference in a deluge of information, and that bet paid off. Trump won the most important election in decades. His surrogate Scott Nell Hughes explicitly confirmed that whole strategy yesterday.

    […]

    Around the 14-minute mark, Hughes illustrated a defining principle of Trumpism: There’s no longer such thing as fact, because anything is true if enough people believe it.

    “Well, I think it’s also an idea of an opinion. And that’s—on one hand, I hear half the media saying that these are lies. But on the other half, there are many people that go, ‘No, it’s true.’ And so one thing that has been interesting this entire campaign season to watch, is that people that say facts are facts—they’re not really facts. Everybody has a way—it’s kind of like looking at ratings, or looking at a glass of half-full water. Everybody has a way of interpreting them to be the truth, or not truth. There’s no such thing, unfortunately, anymore as facts.

    […]

    “And so Mr. Trump’s tweet, amongst a certain crowd—a large part of the population—are truth. When he says that millions of people illegally voted, he has some—amongst him and his supporters, and people believe they have facts to back that up. Those that do not like Mr. Trump, they say that those are lies and that there are no facts to back it up.

    http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/videos/a51152/trump-surrogate-no-such-thing-as-facts/

  11. cohesion 11
    3 December 2016 at 11:35 am

    Trevor Mallard figting the rigthies on Kb. He has been identified as ztev.

  12. Sanctuary 12
    3 December 2016 at 1:07 pm

    Genuine, serious question to people who have worked in the media:

    Why does the Herald keep publishing (5 or so a week) awful crime stories like this one?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11759808

    This story is of no merit whatsoever in NZ. It occurred far away, has no link to our country and isn’t even that interesting. Why do they publish them?

    • marty mars 12.1
      3 December 2016 at 1:23 pm

      imo some people like war porn, crime porn, natural disaster porn, unnatural disaster porn, someone else suffering porn, those poor fuckers porn, where porn is not necessarily a sexual gratification rather a general gratification that may have sexual overtones. Media sell advertising so whatever brings the eyes and clicks in is good and anything (like news or positive stuff) that doesn’t is bad. Good = more money. Good = more ‘porn’, Good = less news and less actual positive stuff (unless it is a cat or puppy or dolphin – then they are all over that shit. I’m pretty sure you are well aware of this so not sure what the point of your question was really.

    • joe90 12.2
      3 December 2016 at 1:53 pm

      Why do they publish them?

      NZME or Macedonian chan kiddies, it pays.

      The young Macedonians who run these sites say they don’t care about Donald Trump. They are responding to straightforward economic incentives: As Facebook regularly reveals in earnings reports, a US Facebook user is worth about four times a user outside the US. The fraction-of-a-penny-per-click of US display advertising — a declining market for American publishers — goes a long way in Veles. Several teens and young men who run these sites told BuzzFeed News that they learned the best way to generate traffic is to get their politics stories to spread on Facebook — and the best way to generate shares on Facebook is to publish sensationalist and often false content that caters to Trump supporters.

      https://www.buzzfeed.com/craigsilverman/how-macedonia-became-a-global-hub-for-pro-trump-misinfo?utm_term=.nfQGGGVlNY#.dmLXXXGbo1

    • Paul 12.3
      3 December 2016 at 2:05 pm

      1. It’s clickbait and adds advertising funds for the corporate media.

      2. Crime scares people. Scared people want governments ‘tough on crime.’

      3. Crime stories distract from the big stories. If you’re focused on Maddie McCann, JonBenét Ramsey and other terrible murders, then you’re not so focused on climate change and rising inequality.

  14. marty mars 14
    3 December 2016 at 3:18 pm

    Yep – institutionalised racism

    Most of the MPs don’t care about Treaty Bills or restoration of mana – and they are so blinkered they don’t see that the remedy for many issues in this country is respect and treating tangata whenua as ACTUAL Treaty partners. They are too busy feathering their own nests and egos. Disgraceful – these bills should require COMPULSORY attendance and all MP’s should be there to hear the bills being read – even the racist pricks who are so prevalent.

    “The wairua of the house changes with those types of bills and with the iwi and the hapu and the whanau showing up to support kaupapa like that and we should be embracing that, we should be happy those kinds of things happen and it is very disappointing to see a lack of bums on seats. We have another chance coming up next week with the Rangitaane bills and the Ngati Kahu bill so I challenge all of the MPs, as many as possible to get in for those hearings, because I know I’ll be there,” he says.”

    http://www.waateanews.com/waateanews/x_story_id/MTUyNzE=?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    Mauri ora Labour’s Tamaki Makaurau MP Peeni Henare

  15. greywarshark 15
    3 December 2016 at 4:19 pm

    Could mod please get my two posts, one for here and one for Pike River out of the closet please? I put them in between 4 and 4.18 pm. Thanks so much.

    [Done not sure why you keep going into moderation … MS]

  16. rhinocrates 16
    3 December 2016 at 6:21 pm

    Buyer’s remorse from some Trumpites it seems:

    http://www.gopocalypse.org/trump-supporters-are-already-starting-to-tweet-their-regrets/

    “I thought you said you really loved me!”

    If you want to make a little on the side selling bridges and national monuments, these idiots are your market. They only know that they’ve been screwed when they’re holding the baby.

  17. rob 17
    3 December 2016 at 6:32 pm

    Just a question to anyone who knows the answer?
    when the land is lifted in earthquake,who owns the land ie: if a farm boarders the ocean and the property gains 1-100 acres or hectares is it iwi,govt,or the private land owner and if land owner?do rates increase? And what if the land is deminished? is it the reverse.