Open mike 04/06/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 4th, 2020 - 167 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

167 comments on “Open mike 04/06/2020 ”

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  1. Andre 1
    4 June 2020 at 7:33 am

    Sarah Cooper again. Presumably this was prompted by the candycorn skidmark gassing the clergy from their church across the road so he could waddle across and have his photo taken in front of it holding an upside-down black book (alleged to be a bible).

    • Adrian Thornton 1.1
      4 June 2020 at 9:11 am

      So easy to laugh at the biggest dummy in the room, no real sport in that as far as I can see…..here is really funny and brave comedian Larry Wilmore exposing why Donald Trump is Obama's main legacy…to Obama's face and pretty much ending his mainstream career in the process..turns out Democrats have about as much ability to laugh at themselves as they have for self analysis…ie; none.

      .

      • Andre 1.1.1
        4 June 2020 at 9:44 am

        Oh sure, Obama and the Dems are totes responsible for putting the Mandarin Mugabe into the Oval Office. The brazenness of incrementally pushing a law for equality here, implementing a government body to rein in the worst predatory practices of the financial industry there … nek minnit, a (half) black man has the temerity to win the presidency, and what's more, win it twice because he was actually good at the job.

        Fuck me, they even made sure tens of millions of poor people got access to healthcare which they previously couldn't afford. Can't have that, of course that's going to boost a muddled asshole yearning to scream free into the highest office in the land.

        Of course, self-absorbed narcissists falsely painting the tiny-fingered fascist and Hillary as somehow equivalent, or loony lefties amplifying repackaged Repug smears, and all kinds of other undermining from loony lefties prancing around on purity ponies had nothing to do with it. Didn't affect the vote one tiny bit. No sirree.

        Idiot.

        • Kevin 1.1.1.1
          4 June 2020 at 9:59 am

          Can we just stick to Trump?

          All the nicknames have been seen a million times and not really that funny any more.

          • Andre 1.1.1.1.1
            4 June 2020 at 10:01 am

            Bite me.

          • Andre 1.1.1.1.2
            4 June 2020 at 10:22 am

            Actually, come to think of it, that was a bit harsh.

            Would you like me to list all the things I've called him, and you can tell me which ones you find particularly distressing, and I'll try not to re-use them?

          • francesca 1.1.1.1.3
            4 June 2020 at 10:36 am

            Agree, tiresome

            Trumps is quite possibly the most unhinged President ever, but this carping on about physical qualities seems so beside the point

            [Fixed error in user handle]

          • Morrissey 1.1.1.1.4
            4 June 2020 at 11:18 am

            Unfunny nicknames are all that some people here have in their arsenal, sadly. sad

          • Cinny 1.1.1.1.5
            4 June 2020 at 1:18 pm

            The nicknames I read on here for trump has made me laugh loudly more than once. I like laughter, laughter is good.

            • Andre 1.1.1.1.5.1
              4 June 2020 at 1:34 pm

              Okay, okay, I give in. Here's the map to the motherlode. Use it with caution.

              https://www.reddit.com/r/TrumpNicknames/

              • Cinny …
                4 June 2020 at 6:14 pm

                Dang Andre !!!!! That's gold, thanking you very much.

                I'll be using that material next time trump does a presser to troll the MAGA crowd when they leave the chat open on their youtube stream.

            • WeTheBleeple 1.1.1.1.5.2
              4 June 2020 at 2:13 pm

              It's interesting they're having a pile on for calling the terrified tunneler names, rather than join discussion of the startling events we currently see. Diversionary tactics?

              And why keep going back to past governance as a way of detracting the subject from the maniacal mole-person who, inadvertently, has just kicked off a global civil rights movement.

              Whoopsies!

              Should we not talk about that?

              Should we only use a somber tone if we do talk about that?

              Should we tremble in awe at authority, knowing our rightful place as servants, as right wing nuts would believe is the solution?

              Should we burn it all to the ground as left wing nuts believe is the answer?

              There is no humor in either of those camps.

              Deep diving Don and the demolition men are on the run. America is in the midst of a pandemic and a revolution. This is the largest call for systemic change ever, the whole world is watching, taking notes and names, and people of color and their allies are not backing down.

              Get onboard or get out of the way.

              But Hillary! Biden! Obama!

              • Andre …
                4 June 2020 at 2:22 pm

                … pile on …

                Looks like I'm only two or four short of collecting the complete set of TS's currently active useful idiots.

            • patricia 1.1.1.1.5.3
              4 June 2020 at 3:25 pm

              +1

        • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1.2
          4 June 2020 at 10:33 am

          @Andre, as usual your answer exemplifies my point beautifully…thank you.

        • Brigid 1.1.1.3
          4 June 2020 at 12:43 pm

          Well those Muricans are just damned ungrateful aren't they. After Obama made life so so peachy for them all they have the gall to vote in the worst candidate the country could dredge up.

          Why do you suppose the electorate felt so disenfranchised that they welcomed a sexists, racist, fascist moron for President?

          For full marks your answer must not contain the following words:

          Russia

          Russia

          Russia

          • Andre 1.1.1.3.1
            4 June 2020 at 12:55 pm

            For starters, the American electorate rejected the sexist, racist, fascist moron, by a margin of 65.9 million to 63.0 million. It was the Electoral College that barfed up the Douche ex Machina.

            Then there's the uncomfortable demonstration that a sizable minority of the American electorate are themselves sexist, racist morons that aren't bothered enough by the prospect of fascism to vote against it. Which includes many that describe themselves as lefties that get their jollies prancing around on purity ponies trying to demonise non-fascist leftie candidates that actually have a chance of winning election but fail to meet their fantasies.

      • Ad 1.1.2
        4 June 2020 at 9:46 am

        Sigh.

        This is how you actually do it:

  2. Molly 2
    4 June 2020 at 7:36 am

    What was he thinking (again)?

    Dr Lance Sullivan admits and excuses himself by Facebook post of using a brick to smash a window of a car parked in a disabled carpark.

    When my in-laws were alive, this often happened and we would have to just accommodate that. The truth is, while we sometimes had a disability card, with elderly friends their mobility was often variable, and sometimes it took a while to get to where they needed to go. I can understand that some without mobility for a while don't have the ability or time to get the card. (That's what I told myself anyway. It doesn't result in rage. Note: we never parked in the disability spots regardless. With two able bodied persons, most outings could be accommodated, just by using one of us for drop off and pick up. Left the carparks free for those without that option. )

    I understand that his stress levels and frustration may be high, but the effect of releasing that energy in such a way would be detrimental not only to himself (and the car) but for his son that had to witness it.

    • weka 2.1
      4 June 2020 at 11:41 am

      He's such a fuckwit, and I hope progressives understand that some of us were pointing out his authoritarian tendancies when he was going hard out against anti-vaxxers. There are all sorts of ways to deal with the problem of misuse of mobility parks, but I suspect this isn't about that but about his personality and belief that he is always right.

      • JanM 2.1.1
        4 June 2020 at 12:43 pm

        And isn't he wanting to go into parliament under the Maori Party banner? Yet another doctor not happy with doing his job and joining a right wing party" Crikey – the woods are already full of them!

        • weka 2.1.1.1
          4 June 2020 at 1:42 pm

          Māori Party, National, or TOP apparently. The ones that will tolerate authoritarians, but I suspect he won't be getting into any of them now.

        • Chris T 2.1.1.2
          4 June 2020 at 7:55 pm

          How can one post actually contain so much shit.

    • Incognito 2.2
      4 June 2020 at 12:05 pm

      First, do no harm.

    • Cinny 2.3
      4 June 2020 at 1:23 pm

      In our town, we just let the person in the shop etc know if someone without a card uses the disabled park. They they let the whole shop know through the loud speaker, it works a treat.

      Sounds to me like the dr has anger issues.

      • weka 2.3.1
        4 June 2020 at 1:40 pm

        haha, that's brilliant of the shop.

        I used to have a stash of fliers saying something like "you've got my car park do you want my disability too?" that I would leave on the windscreen.

    • gsays 2.4
      4 June 2020 at 2:50 pm

      Arrogance and entitlitis was what I thought when I read the article. But not to fret, he has got himself some anger management.

      We got the modern corporate apology too. Loaded with excuses and diversions.

      My mum has one of the mobility permits and I know of a couple of times she has come back to the car and the permit was on the floor of the car. Inadvertantly swept it off the dashboard with handbag, scarf etc.

      • Molly 2.4.1
        4 June 2020 at 3:04 pm

        " My mum has one of the mobility permits and I know of a couple of times she has come back to the car and the permit was on the floor of the car. Inadvertantly swept it off the dashboard with handbag, scarf etc. "

        That would be really easy to do, and do often.

        • patricia 2.4.1.1
          4 June 2020 at 3:32 pm

          Hang/peg it on the rear vision mirror. There are not enough disability parks with an aging population.

      • OnceWasTim 2.4.2
        4 June 2020 at 3:37 pm

        "But not to fret, he has got himself some anger management."

        Do you know if that's with 'the Bish"'s ManUp programme? And are doctors visits to go up 10% to take account of the cost of tithing?

    • Gabby 2.5
      4 June 2020 at 3:25 pm

      He'll be paying for it no doubt.

  3. Ad 3
    4 June 2020 at 7:44 am

    My vote for under-sell and over-perform Minister of this government is …

    Megan Woods.

    As well as rescuing the housing portfolio, yesterday she actually announced major funding for research and development:

    · $196 million for Crown Research Institutes

    · $150 million for R&D loan scheme

    · $33 million for Māori research and development opportunities

    · $12 million for the Nationally Significant Collections and Databases

    · $10 million to help maintain in-house capability at Callaghan Innovation

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2006/S00027/govt-boosts-innovation-rd-for-economic-rebuild.htm

    For those in our public sector research and development communities, this volume of fresh funding is very, very rare over the years. Our Crown Research Institutes for example have pumped out massive horticultural innovations that have built whole new sectors of our economy.

    And R&D loans are a nice untargeted way of giving businesses the opportunity to think harder and longer without doing the usual thing of mortgaging the house.

    She's no one for oratory or large abstract nouns, but she delivers.

    I hope she does very well in the next Cabinet placings.

    • Bearded Git 3.1
      4 June 2020 at 9:52 am

      I disagree Ad. Not only does she deliver, but she also makes sense when interviewed.

      Labour needs to push her (and others) forward to counter National's oft-repeated (and erroneous) contention that this is a government with a cabinet of only 2 competent Labour people.

    • Enough is Enough 3.2
      4 June 2020 at 9:56 am

      I think she is most certainly the "Miss Fixit" minister.

      Its a pity that she has to sleep and Jacinda can't throw a few more portfolios from underperforming ministers at her.

      • Ad 3.2.1
        4 June 2020 at 9:57 am

        Woods and Parker are the policy workhorses of this government.

        • Bearded Git 3.2.1.1
          4 June 2020 at 10:37 am

          Yes Woods and Parker both highly rated by me.

          But Parker's binning of RMA scrutiny for infrastructure developments over the next 2 years is a little too close to ACT policy for me-the public needs the checks and balances provided by the RMA.

  4. Sacha 4
    4 June 2020 at 7:58 am

    Chch council proposes charging for water usage based on property value – but not how you'd think: https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/121713503/excess-water-use-charges-to-impact-cheaper-suburbs-first

    The council's head of three waters and waste, Helen Beaumont, said a home priced at $500,000 has an allocation of 800 to 900 litres, whereas a $1 million dollar home gets about 1700 litres.

    • Stunned Mullet 4.1
      4 June 2020 at 8:31 am

      I wonder why CCH uses a formula for use based on property value rather than actual usage ?

      On the face of it seems patently unfair and non-sensical.

      • Graeme 4.1.1
        4 June 2020 at 9:08 am

        As a manager of a couple of small water schemes I’d call it the path of least resistance…..

        Residential water usage and perceived entitlement is pretty proportional to property value and you can waste a lot of time and have a lot of unproductive arguments trying to fight that.

        The miscreants at the upper end will be gross abusers and this policy will deal with them without getting into fights with everyone

        • Sacha 4.1.1.1
          4 June 2020 at 9:27 am

          Entitlement and influence. Poor citizens are so much easier to ignore when a policy affects them.

        • Ad 4.1.1.2
          4 June 2020 at 9:39 am

          Plenty of times I've seen Watercare front up with live modelling to Auckland Council showing precisely how different communities with different-sized families get impacted across different pricing staircases.

          I've seen them go through 10 models, each overlaying water pricing upon a proposed rates increase to show essentially a wealth-based cumulative impact.

          Why the hell we don't have a single water price regulator yet is incomprehensible.

          The arguments can be won, and often have.

          If this kind of decision were from central government it would have a BORA rider on it. Failing that someone should have a sit-down with the Human Rights Commission.

          • RedLogix 4.1.1.2.1
            4 June 2020 at 10:08 am

            I've seen them go through 10 models, each overlaying water pricing upon a proposed rates increase to show essentially a wealth-based cumulative impact.

            The core problem with all water pricing models is the disconnect between the actual costs of delivering water, and any pricing model consumers would accept.

            Cost of supply is at least 90% fixed capital and overheads that remain the same regardless of volume. Paradoxically as volumes go down the cost per unit to deliver goes up … strongly.

            While at the same time consumers have a certain very inelastic minimum demand they must have regardless of price, they are only prepared to pay on usage basis. But then they resist the metering necessary to implement it.

            It's all a complex mess that never makes anyone happy. The best you can hope for is a tolerable muddle.

            • Andre 4.1.1.2.1.1
              4 June 2020 at 10:17 am

              What do you reckon that very inelastic minimum demand might be? I vaguely recall places in northern europe having per capita consumptions in the vicinity of 80 litres per day.

              Personally I'm a bit under 50 litres per day at home, so my typical water bill is around $20/month fixed charge for the connection and $6/month for supplying the water I use and taking it away again.

              So when Christchurch is talking about putting excess usage charges on households with usages of 900 litres/day or 1700 litres/day, that's a definite hmmm moment.

            • Ad 4.1.1.2.1.2
              4 June 2020 at 10:18 am

              Takes a particular kind of nerd to interrogate an Asset Management Plan.

              Unfortunately it's what we now have to do to find business.

            • Graeme 4.1.1.2.1.3
              4 June 2020 at 10:31 am

              While a consumer’s baseline demand is inelasstic, the perception of many water users is that an allocation of water is infinitely elastic.

              The obvious solution of metering is not for the faint hearted, it will get very emotive very quickly. And that goes for small households that are actually really good with their usage through to large irrigators. Although with consent monitoring by regional councils the large users are really good now, most of my grief comes from larger residential blocks, especially when they’ve just moved down from Auckland.

        • Gabby 4.1.1.3
          4 June 2020 at 3:30 pm

          Sounds a bit cowardly.

    • Bearded Git 4.2
      4 June 2020 at 9:55 am

      If they are going to charge for water they should meter it. The technology has been around for ever.

  5. Sacha 5
    4 June 2020 at 8:15 am

    Winston First drags chain on Covid commercial tenancy relief: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/418207/govt-unveils-action-plan-on-small-business-rent-disputes

    New Zealand First and Labour have been negotiating a deal for nearly two months and Justice Minister Andrew Little said he regretted that for some landlords and tenants it would be too late.

    …

    While the prime minister, finance minister and Little have been pushing for a more compulsory arrangement, New Zealand First leader Winston Peters told RNZ last week he wouldn't play a part in breaking the sanctity of contracts.

    • Stunned Mullet 5.1
      4 June 2020 at 8:32 am

      Urghhh … finding oneself in agreement with Winston at such an early hour of the day is not pleasant.

      • Sacha 5.1.1
        4 June 2020 at 8:44 am

        Two months is a long time.

        • Graeme 5.1.1.1
          4 June 2020 at 9:24 am

          Also a moving and unpredictable target. The way events have transpired it only needs to be about rent remission through levels 4 and maybe 3 over a couple of months.

          Had things gone differently it could have been a very different situation requiring the unwinding of a lot of leases and other contracts. Which would have been something else altogether.

          Prudent for government to wait and see what they were dealing with.

          We’re affected and I think they’ve got it right with substance and timing. Time to bang some heads together, to use the commercial phrase.

  6. TJ 6
    4 June 2020 at 8:20 am

    The person parking without displaying a valid mobility card could, hypothetically, be charged with "behaviour likely to cause violence": a law more likely to be enforced in smaller towns such as Rotorua, or Kaitaia. So I suspect "The Trial of the Good Doctor" has a more, at this stage… whimsical… element to it.

    (that should be attached to post #2)

  7. Adrian Thornton 7
    4 June 2020 at 9:41 am

    Nothing changes in the States, even after having their first Black POTUS….just goes to show that the liberal ideology doesn't care what colour or sex you are as long as you are prepared to maintain their power structures and political status quo.

    • Andre 7.1
      4 June 2020 at 9:55 am

      Those whining about liberals have had five years since Bernie burst on the scene to make the case for whatever flavour of illiberalism you want to impose. And failed. Utterly and miserably.

      If you want to keep trying to attack those that really are trying to improve the world for the majority of people, ie those currently commonly called liberals, then go right ahead. But just don't be surprised when the reaction is "stick it up your ass right back where it came from".

      • Morrissey 7.1.1
        4 June 2020 at 11:16 am

        Please explain: how does criticising the likes of Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Charles Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, the comically inept “Mayor Pete” and the hilarious (unintentionally) Jerry Nadler make one “illiberal”? And how was the "liberal" Joe Biden "trying to improve the world for the majority of people" on this occasion?

        • Andre 7.1.1.1
          4 June 2020 at 11:24 am

          Biden is a long way from being my first choice. But he is the first choice of most of those that are bearing the brunt of the really nasty shit going down in the US. That choice deserves respect, if you are capable of any.

          Your clip in lieu of an argument is from sometime last century. Things have evolved since then. Maybe that's why you didn't come up with something a bit more recent.

          • Morrissey 7.1.1.1.1
            4 June 2020 at 11:39 am

            … he is the first choice of most of those that are bearing the brunt of the really nasty shit going down in the US.

            No he's not. He's despised by black and Latino social activists, who rightly hold him accountable for the massive incarceration industry that flowed from his obscene and racist Crime Bill.

            Your clip in lieu of an argument is from sometime last century. Things have evolved since then.

            I have argued, often, that Biden is unfit for office of any kind. Sometimes, though, a few minutes of the man actually performing is enough to gauge his character.

            Maybe that's why you didn't come up with something a bit more recent.

            Yes, there have been revelations recently about his less publicized (at the time) behaviour back in 1993—the same year he was sneering at the very idea of social deprivation, and railing against black "predators"—"born out of wedlock"—threatening "my mother."

            • gsays 7.1.1.1.1.1
              4 June 2020 at 3:17 pm

              That Biden rooster in the above clip is a tad Trumpesque in his approach.

              Complex issues are black and white, he doesn't care about extenuating circumstances and using emotive examples to get them 'off the streets and into jail'. And that is a Democrat!

              To be fair it is more accurate to say Trump is Bidenesque as that clip predates Trump entering politics by about 25 yrs.

        • Peter 7.1.1.2
          4 June 2020 at 2:02 pm

          Yes, it's clear, Biden shouldn't be elected over Trump.

          While Biden exposed his limitations and unfitness for office in 1993 Trump was in his golden bloom. That led all these years later to the inspirational leadership, the humanity and enlightened ways we've witnessed in recent years. Going into the 2020s Trump is the one.

          The fact that Biden is despised by black and Latino social activists (you say further down) further accentuates the gap between the two. No activists or any groups despise Trump to any extant let alone to the level of Biden.

          Some said the choice last time was for the lesser of two evils. At least this time there's only one evil and one who has made America great again.

          Okay, is that how you see it?

          • Morrissey 7.1.1.2.1
            4 June 2020 at 2:22 pm

            Okay, is that how you see it?

            No. As usual, you have shown that you don't have a clue.

    • Morrissey 7.2
      4 June 2020 at 11:11 am

      Other violent police forces, like the Gestapo, have been abolished. Now is the time to get rid of the NYPD, LAPD, and all the other ones in between.

  8. The Chairman 8
    4 June 2020 at 10:25 am

    @ Adrian

    In the link below civil rights veteran Bob Woodson touches on your point of having blacks in positions of power, stating black struggles are an issue of class.

    https://youtu.be/essyukA9wpM?t=1310

    • RedLogix 8.1
      4 June 2020 at 4:01 pm

      Tucker Carlson is about the only person making much sense on this crisis.

      I've held back from saying much on this tragic mess because while people are still protesting, looting and attacking the police emotions will rule. Facts will mean little.

      But here are the crude numbers: black Americans consist of around 15% of the population, about 25- 30 % of police shootings, and perpetrate 52% of the homicides.

      In recent years between 200 – 240 black are killed by the police, while at the same time some 6000 are killed by other blacks. An black man in the USA is at least 20 times more likely to be killed by another black man than a cop.

      And it turns out adding diversity to the police makes little difference, black cops shoot blacks at very similar rates to white cops. There is in fact remarkably little evidence to show, that once all the variables are controlled for, that the police as a whole, are substantially biased against black citizens.

      https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877

      Watching even a few seconds of the video of George Floyd's death had us all united in one thing, that something went very, very wrong at that moment. And the cops involved have now been charged. Minnesota Police, the same people who brought us the death of Justine Damond , will come under even more scrutiny.

      Nor can the obvious dangers of policing in a society where guns are routinely carried be neglected. Cops must treat every person they encounter as potentially armed and likely to try and kill them at any moment; this must have a deeply corrosive and brutalising effect on a person who must work in such an environment day in day out.

      This is a very emotive and complex story, but I agree with Woodson, the real issues of race are being used as a ruse for something else here. Just a few months ago Andrew Yang was openly predicting exactly this kind of rioting if the USA failed to address the deepening economic inequality and insecurity across the whole of their society, regardless of ethnicity. There is the root cause, and it's especially sharp in the immediate aftermath of the COVID shutdown, most working families in the US are now broke or very close to it. This is the crisis that BLM, Antifa and other far left actors are exploiting for their own purposes.

      What you can be also sure of is that the vast majority of ordinary Americans, are horrified and ashamed of the burning, the looting and the attacks on the police forces they all rely on.

      • Andre 8.1.1
        4 June 2020 at 5:44 pm

        There is in fact remarkably little evidence to show, that once all the variables are controlled for, that the police as a whole, are substantially biased against black citizens.

        Ever had the experience of riding along with a black man driving when they've been pulled over for a DWB (driving while black)? I've had it happen, once in New Jersey once in Wisconsin, both times very presentable marketing managers driving, on our way to meetings where I was coming along for technical support. Both of them said afterwards that DWB stops go a whole lot better when there's a presentable white person in the car with them.

        And the initial cop approach to the car was very different to all the traffic stops I had as a driver. So I've got some direct personal experiences that will need to be overcome with very good evidence before I'll buy in to the idea that there isn't a lot of racism in US police forces.

        • McFlock 8.1.1.1
          4 June 2020 at 5:55 pm

          I couldn't even be fucking bothered. Just another case of "identity politics distracts from the real issue" bullshit, but this time spread lavishly between two extra thick pieces of white bread.

          • RedLogix 8.1.1.1.1
            4 June 2020 at 8:29 pm

            Tell that to Bob Woodson.

            • I Feel Love 8.1.1.1.1.1
              4 June 2020 at 8:56 pm

              A whole bunch of Black American voices say otherwise, as well as Native Americans, Latinos and Asians, I'll listen to them, and believe them (quietly, the last thing they need is another know it all white guy telling them what's good for them), rather than someone who doesn't think white privilege exists.

              • RedLogix …
                4 June 2020 at 9:23 pm

                There are also plenty of black voices with other points of view; they don't get much attention at moments like this, but they're not hard to find either. This of course is the fatal flaw of identity politics, the entirely racist notion that all people of the same ethnicity think the same.

                Of course white privilege exists; it's exactly what you would expect in a society where the majority of people are white. All societies, regardless of ethnicity organise themselves to suit their own cultural preferences and values; and this innately privileges the in-group over others. It would be quite weird if it were otherwise.

            • McFlock 8.1.1.1.1.2
              4 June 2020 at 9:03 pm

              Here's a twitter thread that responds with more patience than I ever could.

              • RedLogix …
                4 June 2020 at 9:36 pm

                All perfectly good logic in general and I've no particular quibble with that thread. But the context of police shootings is quite different; from the perspective of a cop any random black person they encounter in the daily course of their work … is 2 – 3 times more likely to be a dangerous than a random person of any other ethnicity.

                The thread is quite right, ordinary people mostly mingle with other ordinary people and making assumptions about a whole group of people based on the behaviour of a tiny criminal minority of that group is by definition racism. But police by the very nature of their profession do not mingle with ordinary people, they have to deal with that tiny minority. Their experience is quite different, especially in a society where dangerous criminals are also very likely to be armed.

                It is a brutal logic, but their daily lived experience all the same.

                • McFlock …
                  4 June 2020 at 10:01 pm

                  But the context of police shootings is quite different; from the perspective of a cop any random black person they encounter in the daily course of their work … is 2 – 3 times more likely to be a dangerous than a random person of any other ethnicity.

                  But that "2-3 times" is 99.9% vs 99.8% to not be a murderer. 94% vs 95% to not even need arresting that year. So "random" people being encountered should be treated equally. But they're not. They're ulled over at different rates, arrested at different rates, and shot at different rates.

                  • I Feel Love …
                    4 June 2020 at 10:15 pm

                    Sure, listen to those POCs with other POVs, but there's literally 1000s right now, screaming their stories, of harassment and racism, and I won't ignore that. To deny there's institutionalised racism is delusional, juries often let white people off killing black Americans because like your reasoning (maybe wrong word, long day at work, tired), they think they are more likely to shoot than non blacks, ie: "they're scary".

                  • RedLogix …
                    4 June 2020 at 10:30 pm

                    Pointing to all the ordinary people who don't commit crimes is largely irrelevant in this context. The experience of police is different to you or I. They deal with criminals every day, we don't and as a result theirs is a highly selective view of ethnicity.

                    • McFlock …
                      4 June 2020 at 10:45 pm

                      The cops indeed are racist have "a highly selective view of ethnicity". In many ways it seems to be the main determinant on how they treat the people they come into contact with.

                    • RedLogix …
                      4 June 2020 at 11:22 pm

                      Racism is by definition an irrational prejudice against an ethnic group, but what if from an average American cop's perspective it was entirely rational?

                      Sticking the racist label on this is great if heaping guilt on white people is your goal, but you've been doing this for decades with little to show for it. The outcomes for minorities and people of colour remain stubbornly poor.

                      So excuse me if I'm inclined to peel back your label and peek under it.

                    • McFlock …
                      4 June 2020 at 11:38 pm

                      Except it's not rational. It's disproportionate. They make more arrests of black people at traffic stops because they pull over black drivers as a fishing expedition, but only pull over white drivers for explicit cause. They are more likely to shoot unarmed black people than unarmed white people in similar circumstances. They are more likely to use force on black people than white people in similar circumstances.

                      From an actual, rational, comparative risk assessment, the differentiating factor between force levels is the ethnicity of the person facing the officer. That's why white women call the cops when they're asked to leash their dogs by a black man.

                      Peek under that fucking label all you want. Just take your blinkers off, first.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      5 June 2020 at 12:16 am

                      "Racism is the belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to physical appearance and can be divided based on the superiority of one race over another."
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

                      Some beliefs formed early are like stubborn stains – hard to shift.

                      America Doesn’t Need Another Commission to Expose Its Racism
                      “There is evidence of lawless police action against whites and Negroes alike, but the dominant pattern is that of race prejudice,” the committee wrote. “Negroes have been shot, supposedly in self-defense, under circumstances indicating, at best, unsatisfactory police work in the handling of criminals, and, at worst, a callous willingness to kill.” The [1947] report changed nothing.

                      The next commission will issue informed and well-meaning recommendations. But they won’t be surprising. Because we’ve heard them all before.
                      https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/george-floyd-racism-police-brutality/612565/

                    • RedLogix …
                      5 June 2020 at 9:17 am

                      They are more likely to shoot unarmed black people than unarmed white people in similar circumstances. They are more likely to use force on black people than white people in similar circumstances.

                      The logical trap you are falling into is this; small differences at the mean become quite large ones at the extreme. In ordinary life there is no excuse to treat black and white people differently, but the police operate at the extremes.

                      The circumstances they are operating in are not similar to the ones you and I experience. Hence they treat whites and blacks differently and there are different outcomes. No-one is saying this is a good thing, no-one is defending it, no-one is saying there are not cops who revert to brutal, racist stereotypes. No-one is saying nothing can be done about it.

                      But police are ordinary people as well, doing a tough, shitty and essential job. If we want them to change their behaviour, understanding their experience from their perspective is the logical place to start.

                • McFlock …
                  4 June 2020 at 10:08 pm

                  As for who the cops mingle with determining who they shoot, that's sort of the point.

                  • I Feel Love …
                    4 June 2020 at 10:25 pm

                    Great link Mcflock.

                    I saw a girl similar to one of my kids ages on a BLM march, & I realised it's something I'll never need to do with my kid.

                    & I saw this woman addressing a crowd of mostly whites, and asking them to put up their hand if any of them would want to be black in the USA, there wasn't many takers.

                    It is emotional, and complicated, but it exists. Same as here, and in Aus.

      • I Feel Love 8.2.1
        4 June 2020 at 9:04 pm

        That's clever Joe90, it's interesting the more you arm the police, the more terrified they are. The cops were charged over Floyds death, would they have been without the protests? What does history say? (how many cops have been charged with murder, or accessory to murder, SFA).

        • RedLogix 8.2.1.1
          4 June 2020 at 9:40 pm

          It's very easy to condemn police from behind the safety of your keyboard. It's my view that most people here shitting on them wouldn't last 10 minutes in the job.

          • greywarshark 8.2.1.1.1
            4 June 2020 at 10:16 pm

            Red Logix There is a time for every purpose under heaven. ( From the Bible.)

            This matter of the Floyd shooting is a time for reacting with shock and horror and not easy-peasy reasonableness. It is not reasonable and don't lose all your brownie points RL trying to say otherwise. Read the below that Gordon Campbell at Werewolf on Scoop has taken the time and trouble to write and illustrate why we should be upset and shaming the USA police in that State.

            https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2006/S00005/gordon-campbell-on-the-george-floyd-protests.htm?6

            • I Feel Love 8.2.1.1.1.1
              4 June 2020 at 10:31 pm

              There's plenty giving the cops shit standing in front of them, and getting beaten for it. If cops can't handle being cops no one is forcing them. And their toxic masculinity macho bullshit is awful anyway. There are enquiries aplenty with cops turning off body cameras, thank goodness there's plenty of people with phones filming them. I also think it's my prerogative to criticise racist, violent, arsehole cops, so there.

              I'm proud of our own cops, they've really shown themselves as a professional, calm, rational force. I don't want them armed, even though I'm not likely to ever be at risk.

              • I Feel Love …
                4 June 2020 at 10:35 pm

                You wouldn't last 10 mins at my job, like I wouldn't at yours, that's such a dumb argument, I know I wouldn't last 10 mins being a cop, coz I'd hate it. It does seem to attract some unsuitable people though huh? (More in US than here, though we've had some bad ones).

            • RedLogix 8.2.1.1.1.2
              4 June 2020 at 11:04 pm

              At no point did I say the murder of George Floyd was reasonable. It clearly wasn't, it was grotesquely wrong and on this we are all united.

              What I am saying is that the easy-peasy answers everyone has jumped to are not as clear cut as people are making out. Worse still they are being used as cover for rioting, looting and arsons that are entirely counterproductive.

              To condemn the rioting—which I believe to be a moral and political imperative—is not at all the same thing as opposing the protests. Many observers have been reluctant to do the former because they wish to avoid the latter. I maintain that this is a grave mistake. On the contrary, sympathy for the protesters’ reform agenda would seem to require condemning the nefarious deeds of looters and arsonists. For the rioting plays right into the hands of those political forces that are least sympathetic to the interests of poor communities of color. Mark my words: The violence from these protests will, if it persists, provoke a vicious backlash. It will discourage people from viewing the plight of the minority poor with compassion and understanding.

          • Gabby 8.2.1.1.2
            5 June 2020 at 10:45 am

            I know how to find reverse in my car.

  9. joe90 9
    4 June 2020 at 11:28 am

    Opportunists picking what they see as the winning side or shifting sands in the base?

    https://twitter.com/alissamarie/status/1267979132538929154

    https://twitter.com/GuthrieGF/status/1267977937300516865

    • joe90 9.1
      4 June 2020 at 11:39 am

      Veggie fuckwit equates Black people to animals.

      https://twitter.com/laurenluvsveg/status/1267651282724171777

    • weka 9.2
      4 June 2020 at 2:40 pm

      "Opportunists picking what they see as the winning side or shifting sands in the base?"

      Both I reckon. But I am somewhat heartened that some conservatives seem to think Trump has gone too far. Not sure why, maybe it's the involvement of the military? They do actually fear a fascist state?

      • Andre 9.2.1
        4 June 2020 at 2:47 pm

        Well, here's The Lincoln Project's latest ad. Yes, old-skool Republicans really don't want a fascist state. But there's very few old-skool Republicans left after the impact of the orange asteroid that destroyed the party of dinosaurs.

  10. joe90 10
    4 June 2020 at 12:05 pm

    Better late than never, I guess……

    When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution. Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/

  11. francesca 11
    4 June 2020 at 12:41 pm

    Some might hate this because ..Russsssia!

    but it makes heartening reading .It is possible to feed ourselves locally without industrialised agro /chemical technology

    Many urban Russians own or rent dachas where its customary to grow food, and the practise of growing one's own food has not died out as in many western countries

    https://www.growveg.com.au/guides/growing-your-own-food-russian-style/

    http://reclaimgrowsustain.com/content/russians-proving-small-scale-organic-gardening-can-feed-world

    "By autumn 2017, Vladimir Putin had publicly set a goal for Russia to become the world’s top producer and exporter of organic agriculture. In the summer of 2018, the Russian president signed legislation creating official standards, labeling and certification procedures for organic products produced for commercial sale in Russia that went into effect in 2020. Government support will be available to organic farmers, and a public registry will be created listing certified producers."

    https://consortiumnews.com/2020/06/03/foiling-predictions-russians-did-not-go-hungry-after-2014/

    • RedLogix 11.1
      4 June 2020 at 4:27 pm

      That's genuinely interesting francesca. The whole aspect of the dacha and how central it is to ordinary Russian family life is often missed in the Western world.

      Contrary to what you may have imagined from my comment on the other post around the crisis facing the Russian people, I'm not anti-Russian in the slightest. About 20 years ago I had the remarkable chance to live and work there for a period and I still have many powerful memories of the experience.

      Cheers

      • francesca 11.1.1
        4 June 2020 at 4:54 pm

        It's a bloody minefield trying to get a clear idea of what actually life is like for the ordinary Russians with so much noise and propagandistic static coming at you. I have always found Russian literature and culture and history fascinating, and so diverse!

        Met a few, and really liked them

        Actually Red I find you one of the most balanced and thoughtful commenters on here, always worth reading , even when we disagree you're never insulting or nasty or resort to cheap putdowns

  12. bruce 12
    4 June 2020 at 1:00 pm

    Perhaps a new form of post covid protest. https://pixelhelper.org/en/ Effective messagaing without crowds or contact.

  13. Incognito 13
    4 June 2020 at 1:24 pm

    0

    • Andre 13.1
      4 June 2020 at 1:25 pm

      13

      • Incognito 13.1.1
        4 June 2020 at 1:32 pm

        +1

        • Andre 13.1.1.1
          4 June 2020 at 2:15 pm

          That 1 remains an ongoing worry. I really hope the care and support bubble around them is kept strong, and that the authorities are really looking after those inside that bubble to give them every reason to keep that bubble secure.

          • Incognito 13.1.1.1.1
            4 June 2020 at 7:38 pm

            Active doesn’t necessarily mean infectious. On average, a good 200 people per day arrive at our borders. Anyone of them could be another case. Our borders are ‘closed’ but they are not hermetically sealed. At present (as at 1 June), there are 2,760 people in quarantine and managed isolation.

  14. observer 14
    4 June 2020 at 2:46 pm

    Todd-Watch update:

    He thinks the Prime Minister should "get out more".

    National also criticise her for having photo-ops, and being seen near people. So, they're recommending long, lonely walks?

    • I Feel Love 15.1
      4 June 2020 at 9:30 pm

      Amazing stuff, loved reading all that. Reminded me about the NZ anti tour marches, the Hamilton, AK & Wellington ones of course, but I remember being absolutely fascinated about the one they had in Westport (or Hokitika? Somewhere smallville west coast) & there was about 3-5 people marching.

  16. greywarshark 16
    4 June 2020 at 5:32 pm

    So much going on. Technology has set out to disrupt the pattern of our lives, and create multi-Frankensteins.

    This was from a link on TDB. November 2019. Needs thought. https://www.stuff.co.nz/science/117787200/defunct-satellites-threaten-human-race-space-agency-chief-warns

    …Space scientists are concerned that defunct models could collide with active satellites or the International Space Station, which would then cause more debris, setting off a catastrophic chain reaction that could wipe out telecommunications systems – a phenomenon known as Kessler Syndrome….

    And in that link is an example of how space technology wants to take over a Scottish bog and probably every available unused space, rather like British colonials claiming NZ land not being farmed by Maori, as 'waste land'.

    We in NZ are feeling very smart at getting involved in rocket building and launching for space. Always doing the wrong thing. Twerps R'Us.

    2017 https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/91818991/thousands-of-tiny-satellites-are-about-to-go-into-space-and-possibly-ruin-it-forever?rm=a

  17. joe90 17
    4 June 2020 at 5:54 pm

    Rebuttal of Obama address.

  18. Ad 18
    4 June 2020 at 6:30 pm

    Lovely bit of analysis of an obscure appendix released on the freshwater reforms, and how they will greatly assist our goals to reduce carbon use:

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/06/04/1216012/freshwater-reforms-to-lead-to-massive-emissions-reductions

  19. logie97 19
    4 June 2020 at 7:07 pm

    Just an observation.

    All the top sporting organisations in New Zealand have been beholden to their sponsors, and dictating if and when we can see them on television – all used to be free to air (Golf/Rugby/Netball/Tennis/Soccer/Yachting and others) and paying their top stars huge and inflated salaries – you could say almost pure capitalism in practice.

    Suddenly a pandemic and these prima donnas salaries are under threat – and it seems their governing organisations have their hands out for some government relief. Top sports are a nice-to-have but in these times, a bit of a luxury.

    I wonder how long it will be before the much heralded and wonderful "essential service" employees around the country, will be going cap in hand to the bargaining tables for a pay rise.

  20. observer 20
    4 June 2020 at 7:13 pm

    Tamati Coffey – and some other Labour MPs? – needs to learn the most basic rule of election campaigns. His job now is silence.

    What Jacinda Ardern says matters very much. What ordinary MPs say does not matter at all – until they say something stupid. Then it's a headline.

    Three months of self-discipline, and Labour win. National can't win, unless Labour start aiming gun at foot. Don't give free hits to the media or the opposition.

    If you don't remember 2008-17, listen to somebody who does.

    • In Vino 20.1
      4 June 2020 at 8:45 pm

      Agree. Coffey has to remember that our privately-owned media (including our 'state enterprises') will show him in the worst possible light if they can.

  22. Bob 22
    4 June 2020 at 10:33 pm

    Interesting that Human Rights Commission expressed concern at Covid-19 public health response bill passed under urgency. The HRC points out on its website that the NZ Bill of Rights Act does not override any Act passed into law that infringes it. A reasonable question to ask therefore may be: what is the purpose of a Bill of Rights if not to clearly lay out the freedoms of an individual in a fair and open society? What effective purpose does the Bill of Rights serve? After all, given the lack of oversight to the “science” provided by the WHO, it seems that NZers rights are vulnerable to the edicts of global entities.

    [Please stick to one user handle, thanks]

    • Incognito 22.1
      4 June 2020 at 10:44 pm

      Please stick to one user handle, thanks.

    • greywarshark 22.2
      6 June 2020 at 7:37 pm

      Good question about the Bill of Rights. Had a protest form offered to me today about the lockdown and infringing on freedoms. Put a note on it that I in precautionary measures at this time, and so would any citizen who was concerned about the community wellbeing where they live.

      We have to remember that laws are brought in by people about people, and if they need to be overruled everyone should know why. I think all thinking people understand the whys of the lockdown, and how practical it has been; we feel the pain straight away and fix it rather than dragging it out, along with lots of bodies, over a longer period.

  23. Bob 23
    4 June 2020 at 10:55 pm

    I had only one user handle, why did you change it? The email address provided is my sons…

    • Incognito 23.1
      4 June 2020 at 11:14 pm

      Apologies, I will change it back. This is the problem when people share e-mail address and device when posting here and others cannot tell who is who.

  24. Eco Maori 24
    6 June 2020 at 6:35 pm

    Kia Ora.

    Newshub.

    Snowing down south cool.

    That's is a long trip going to pick up 15 Kiwis.

    Ka kite Ano.

  26. Eco Maori 26
    7 June 2020 at 6:49 pm

    Kia Ora

    Newshub.

    That's the Ion Age.

    Equality.

    Ka kite Ano

  27. Eco Maori 27
    8 June 2020 at 8:53 am

    Kia Ora.

    The Am Show.

    The Green party is doing good mahi with their wins on environment friendly policies and equality policies.

    Its good to see our exports doing OK.

    If you find yourself with A problem you have to look outside your square to solve it.

    Ka kite Ano.

  28. Eco Maori 28
    8 June 2020 at 6:35 pm

    Kia Ora.

    Newshub.

    There you go that was not to long.

    Condolences to the whanau who lost 3 loved one in the farm accident.

    Ka kite Ano.

  29. Eco Maori 29
    8 June 2020 at 7:20 pm

    Kia Ora.

    Te Ao Maori Marama.

    Mana Wahine.

    I,, Whanau back to A near normal life in our beautiful country Aotearoa that didn't take to long.

    Te Matatini will be great.

    A lot of parents are still weary of the virus but their are no cases in Aotearoa now for the tamariki best futures they should go back to school.

    That is not on racism.

    That's a great idea teaching the Rangatahi the skills to process meat.

    Ka kite Ano.

  30. Eco Maori 30
    9 June 2020 at 8:46 am

    Kia Ora.

    The Am Show.

    One has to remember that close to half of tourist are New Zealanders.

    That is good news.

    Ka kite Ano.