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Open Mike 04/12/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 4th, 2018 - 134 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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134 comments on “Open Mike 04/12/2018 ”

  1. Adrian Thornton 1

    Obama tells bankers to thank him, boasts of boosting oil production…

    • francesca 1.1

      Trump with better social skills and a nicer hairdo

      • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1

        Yeah, it seems that most people just don’t want to face the fact that neoliberalism whether it is a brutal hard version delivered by Trump, a softer (seemingly ) version offered by Obama, or our own “pragmatic” version offered by Ardern is by it’s very nature diametrically opposed to assisting the world to battle climate change, thereby by extension at it’s ideological heart, opposed to human wellbeing.

      • Sabine 1.1.2

        and less grabbing of the pussy

        • Morrissey

          But a lot more killing of civilians in Syria, Palestine, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia. Trump is infinitely cruder and more personally disgusting, but he still lags behind when it comes to the body count.

          • Sabine

            they are still dying in all of these countries. Trump has not stopped a single bomb.

            and Trump is of course not selling weapons to the Saudis to bomb yemen, no siree.

            and he will finish the war in Afghanistan by privatising it to Mr. Prince – Betsy de Vos brother of Black water fame any day now. Right?

            Palestine is doing brilliant last i checked. That embassy in Jerusalem made all the issues go away, right?

            Iraq, oh well, if these geezers would just simply give the oil up to the US then all would be wonderful, or do you prefer the original german? Wundervoll.

            They are still dying. But then i guess when you only read the news that comforts your world view i can see how some small things such as facts can be overlooked.

            btw, i used really simple search terms, such as Trump Iraq etc

            • Morrissey

              Everything you say is correct, Sabine. I share your feelings about Trump. He’s even worse than Obama.

              But let’s face it: nearly all the terrible things Trump is doing are continuing on the evil work of the previous Democratic administration. Obama’s lawlessness and contempt for democratic institutions—like the right to work as a journalist, and political asylum, and habeas corpus—paved the way for the horror of this utterly lawless and barbaric regime.

          • Macro

            FFS Morrie please stop telling LIES!!

            In his first two years in office, Donald Trump launched 238 drone strikes in Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia—way beyond what the ‘Drone President’ Barack Obama did.


            But several former U.S. counterterrorism officials and practitioners point to Trump relaxing the standards Obama put in place to authorize a lethal attack in Somalia and likely elsewhere as the wellspring of an explanation.

            “The burden of proof on the target was changed to a lesser burden of proof, and so that automatically opens up the aperture when you’re looking at intelligence and you have a probability factor, or a reasonable one, that your target is there,” explained retired Army Brig. Gen. Donald Bolduc, who commanded U.S. special operations forces in Africa from April 2015 to June 2017.

            Under the Trump administration, the Air Force is spending more on the Hellfire missiles used by armed drones. Hellfire spending in the latter years of Obama administration briefly spiked as the Defense Department stocked up on ammunition to counter the rise of ISIS in Iraq and Syria. But even as the wars in Iraq and Syria wind down, the Trump administration has sought to purchase more drone missiles. Air Force budget documents show a 63 percent increase in Hellfire purchases in Trump’s 2017 budget and an another 20 percent increase in the most recent budget request.

            Your ill-informed comments are an embarrassment

            • Professor Longhair

              Your math is atrocious.

              The 542 drone strikes that Obama authorized killed an estimated 3,797 people, including 324 civilians. As he reportedly told senior aides in 2011: “Turns out I’m really good at killing people. Didn’t know that was gonna be a strong suit of mine.”

              Source: Council on Foreign Relations, January 20, 2017


              • McFlock

                542 strikes in 8 years vs 238 in 2 years.
                Obama did 68 a year, Trump is on 119 a year.

                How’s that for math?

                • Adrian Thornton

                  “542 strikes in 8 years vs 238 in 2 years.
                  Obama did 68 a year, Trump is on 119 a year”
                  Man that is one sick argument, how about we just call both of them international terrorists and leave it that?

                  • Morrissey

                    That’s the reality, Adrian. These Clinton-lite “liberals” also have to come to terms with the fact that it was Obama, not Trump, that started this massive program of separating undocumented parents from their children and incarcerating them. All of it illegal, and condemned under international law.

                    Trump is certainly more uncouth and personally disgusting. He lacks Obama’s superficial style.

                    • Andre

                      For anyone that’s interested in reality and not just using any topic as an entry to smearing Obama and other Democrats, I suggest doing a search using terms such as family separation policy Obama or similar. Or if you prefer someone else’s preselected links, here’s a couple of fact-checks.



                    • Morrissey

                      Speakiing truthfully about Obama’s criminal regime is not “smearing” him, it’s speaking truthfully.

                      Do you deny that Obama’s regime forcibly separated thousands of families?

                      And you can forget about the Democrats doing anything useful to protect families from further predation. They’re already backing off their promises:

                      Members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus held their first news conference since the midterm elections on Monday, with the caucus expected to grow to nearly 100 members when the new Congress is seated in January. Democrats took a cooler tone when asked about plans to abolish ICE—an idea many progressive congressmembers pushed earlier in the year, at the height of public outcry over the Trump administration’s family separation policy. Caucus co-chair Mark Pocan, who introduced a bill over the summer to do away with the agency, said that abolishing ICE was still on the agenda but that higher priorities for the caucus were healthcare, jobs and “dealing with the culture of corruption.”


                    • Andre

                      You got backup for your statement that “Obama’s regime forcibly separated thousands of families” ?

                      Coz from the Vox link above:

                      ” We don’t know how many families were separated under the Obama administration, but there’s no reason to believe that it numbered in the thousands even over the eight years that Obama was president. Because it simply wasn’t standard practice. Under Trump, it was.

                      Both presidents housed “unaccompanied” minors in temporary facilities — but under Obama, they’d pretty much all arrived in the US unaccompanied

                      The 2014 border “surge” was driven partly by an increase in families attempting to cross into the US from Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. But it was primarily driven by an increase in “unaccompanied alien children” — people under 18, coming to the US without parents or guardians — from those same countries. “

                  • McFlock

                    Take it up with “body count” mozzarella and his subjective math.

                    But then if you think the taxonomy of armed conflict begins and ends with “terrorism”, then you are linguistically capable only of considering Obama and Trump (and every other political and military leader in the history of humanity) to be equivalently bad. Newspeak in action: remove the vocabulary, and you remove the ability to express an abstraction.

            • Morrissey

              “ill informed”?

              Wow, that’s pretty harsh, Maccers.

        • Adrian Thornton

          @Sabine, That’s true, but as it turns out, Hillary doesn’t seem to mind a little abuse of the power dynamic when it comes to the pursuit of pussy either……”Mrs Clinton also told CBS that she believes it was right that her husband, who was 49 at the time, did not resign from office, and that Ms Lewinsky “was an adult”, and was not “an abuse of power”

          Not to mention the very disturbing fact that Bill Clinton flew on Epstein’s private plane, dubbed “The Lolita Express” 26 times, but that’s another story.

  2. WeTheBleeple 3

    Herald reports on climate change…


    And it’s not a load of crap.

    I’ve been asking people if they share my fear, sadness and anger concerning climate change and our useless leadership – yes, almost all are suffering unless brainwashed by deniers. Parents can be in a particularly bad space.

    That means that climate change is embedded deep in the psyche. Talk to people, be calm and kind and see if they share your concerns. We’ve been all alone with ourselves trying to deal with the biggest threat of our lives. Connect and communicate.

    The tide MUST turn. Critical mass is close.

    • Dennis Frank 3.1

      That’s good contextualising by David Cormack, co-founder of communications and PR firm, Draper Cormack Group. He shows how democracy works:

      “The 2016 Paris Agreement committed most of the world’s countries to enacting policies that would reduce emissions and keep the temperature increase to 1.5 degrees – 2.oc above the pre-industrial revolution temperature. Two years later and C02 emissions are increasing for the first time since 2014. Nailed it guys.”

      Can’t solve the problem without correct diagnosis, and voters & protestors not only avoid the need for problem-solving, they even avoid diagnosis of the problem. Here’s his view of how to relate cause & effect: “Those 100 fossil fuel companies that are responsible for nearly three quarters of all harmful emissions became aware of the risks of human induced climate change all the way back in the 1950s. They chose to do nothing. Actually that’s not true, they did do something. They organised strategic disinformation campaigns that delayed any effective policy response or decarbonisation for at least three decades.”

      “And not only that, but fossil fuels enjoy some serious subsidies. An IMF paper in 2015 estimated that these subsidies amounted to US$4.9 trillion – just a casual 6.5 per cent of global GDP.” Need I point out that these subsidies have been institutionalised by governments of the left & right for a very long time? Yes, because some contributors here still believe the left are the good guys.

      “On the flipside, 3.5 billion people worldwide have contributed just 10% of the emissions due to individual consumption. That’s nearly half the world’s population responsible for a tenth of the problem.” So the solution to most of the problem is to eliminate those subsidies, right? Well, it’s an obvious first step to take, at least.

      However it can’t happen due to insufficient leverage from democracy. The elites are insulated from accountability. Just look at the G20 agenda: “G20 Argentina has put forth three agenda priorities for the G20 dialogue in 2018: the future of work, infrastructure for development and a sustainable food future.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_G20_Buenos_Aires_summit

      “A number of attending countries have said they focus on the regulation of crypto-currencies at this meeting. Talks between the U.S. and China related to resolving the escalating 2018 China–United States trade war were a central issue of the summit.” The elites deemed climate change too insignificant to put on their agenda.

    • Antoine 3.2

      A problem shared is a problem doubled


  3. Dennis Frank 4

    Matt Taibbi, Contributing Editor @ Rolling Stone, reports: “A movement to draft Bernie Sanders to run for president in 2020 is launching today, with the aim of building an organizational structure so the Vermont Senator can start campaigning at a moment’s notice.” https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/bernie-sanders-2020-presidential-run-762393/

    “Organizing For Bernie is led by a cross-section of senior campaigners from Sanders’ 2016 run… The news comes on the heels of a three-day retreat for progressive leaders called “The Gathering” at the Sanders Institute in Burlington, Vermont. Hosted by Jane Sanders and attended by the likes of Dr. Cornel West, Nina Turner and Bernie Sanders himself, “The Gathering” felt a lot like a kitchen-cabinet strategy session, both for the progressive movement generally, and for a potential Sanders run.”

    “Jeff Weaver, Sanders’ 2016 campaign manager, was a notable conference attendee.” “I’ve been contacted by a number of people who are wondering, how do we demonstrate to Bernie that he’s got the support of people across the country?” Weaver said. “Yanis Varoufakis, a former finance minister of Greece, raised the stakes considerably. “Let me convey a message from all of us in Europe,” Varoufakis said to Sanders during a panel discussion. “For all those comrades of yours who are now struggling to reclaim our cities, our world … our environment: we need Bernie Sanders to run for president.”” https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/03/bernie-sanders-2020-president-senator-mulls-second-white-house-run

    “The Democratic field promises to be wide and unsettled, like the Republican primary in 2016. As many as three dozen figures have expressed an interest in running, among them former vice-president Joe Biden, businessman Michael Bloomberg and congressman Beto O’Rourke.”

    “Sanders has acknowledged that should he run he could face a number of “good candidates” including “friends, people I have known for a long time”. Among them are several Senate colleagues who could run under the progressive banner: Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, Cory Booker of New Jersey, Kamala Harris of California and Jeff Merkley of Oregon, the last one of the few members of Congress who endorsed Sanders in 2016.”

    ““This will be a battle royale,” Cenk Uygur, the founder of the Young Turks news network, said between panels on Friday. “I am asking progressives: whatever you do, do not do a circular firing squad.” He said the number of prospective progressives in the race was a testament to their ascendancy within the party – but he still believed Sanders is the best, most effective messenger for the cause.”

    • Bearded Git 4.1

      With the “Left” split, the Republicans (Trump) will win.

      But the Democrats are only Left in name, so go Bernie!

    • Sabine 4.2

      yeah, sure replace one really old white man with another really old white man.

      Sure thing.

      Sure thing indeed.

      Maybe he could run as an independent, at least that way he could potentially peel of all the white working male that continue to vote republican, irrespective of anything. I personally believe that would be the only way for Sanders to win. Will he do it? I doubt. But he should.


      • xanthe 4.2.1

        sabine: You inhabit an alternative universe there!

        have you considered working for the good of all regardless of gender?

        go on try it!

        • Sabine

          Dear, you should know by now that my Vagina rules my life. Literally. It cost me education my brothers got and i did not cause girls marry. It caused me to get raped. It caused me to get paid less then my male counterparts literally all my life. It will cause me less money in retirement. It will cause me less savings. And all the other things that people who are afflicted with the ‘Vagina Syndrome’ suffer from, especially poverty in age. So what was your point about gender again? If ever you had one?

          In saying that, what about my comment did you not like? Unless you are just here for cheap shots, shits n giggles?

          That i linked to the stats of whom voted for whom in the last election – mid terms, and that yes, white male voted in larger numbers for Republicans then Democrats? Or was it the fact that I believe Sanders would have a better chance of winning white male voters if he were to run as an independent rather then again trying to run as a Dem – a party that he does not belong to. He may caucuses with them, but he does not belong to the Democratic Party.
          So considering that the Democratic party does not look like a white old male, why should the Democratic party nominate a white old male who does not belong or does not want to belong to the Democratic party?

          And considering that small donors can get up to a lot of cash very quickly, he then could really boast about a peoples campaign. So essentially he does not even have the lack of cash excuse. Again, I personally believe he would win, were he to run as an independent. But i am not sure he actually has the guts to do so.

          so dear, what is your issue whit my comment?

          • Macro

            +100 Sabine
            The Dems don’t need to split their vote like they did last time. There are enough progressives in the Dems – despite what commenters on here say. The recent mid-terms showed that dramatically with the Dems winning 38 – 40 seats in the House and a handsome majority of around 33 and a huge increase in younger and women reps. Indeed way more than they had hoped for! The days of the old white male are numbered – thank god. And as an old white male I’m allowed to say that 😉

          • xanthe

            Sabine You have become that which you purport to despise!

            targeting gender or race vote is simply wrong and possessing a vagina will never make it right.

            As well as being unethical is is a road to electoral failure. but i wonder if you care?

      • greywarshark 4.2.2

        Cripes Sabine lay off. Progressives don’t need you dripping ennui and spit on everything that is suggested, like old white men again etc’. If men are the problem, let them work hard at being part of the solution. Keep on their tails to see they are performing politically and practically by all means but don’t garotte them before they can start.

        • Sabine

          It is my opinion that democratic party does not need an old white man to run for President, So no to Joe Biden. It is my opinion that Bernie Sanders – Independent – should not try again and run on a Party Ticket of whom he is not a member of.
          You also have not read the part where i actually give Bernie Sanders good chances of actually winning, where he to run as an Independent – beholden to no party – and did most if not all of his fundraising via small donors. I honestly believe he would have a good chance with the white male of both parties D and R, and could potentially pull of a win.

          As for your comment of of ‘men being the problem’ that is not at all what i have said, but feel free to point out what i have said that made you think it. Or maybe it is you who unconscious lets your bias believe stuff no one said.

          I simply pointed out that the demography that votes for the Democrats, that fundraisers for the Democrats, that does the grass root work for the democrats are women, and people of color. I even attached the statistics of the last elections to show this phenomena in more detail. So if we are to go by that, the D should not nominate another old white man. Cause as far as i have looked the US were run since ever by old white man, with two exceptions, a young white man Kennedy and a young black man Obama. And look as to where it got them.

          So maybe you just need to take account of your own feelings first before you put words in my mouth that i never uttered.

          • Andre

            To be pedantic, Teddy Roosevelt was younger than Kennedy, and Clinton and Obama were only a few years older.


            Totes agree, the US needs someone other than an old white male as president. Even if only for the general principle that someone making decisions should be someone likely to live quite a long time with the outcomes. But there’s also practical matter that younger presidents have generally done a better job than older presidents. Biden and Sanders are both old enough that there’s a serious question mark as to whether they would maintain their current good health and vigour through a 4 year term. Actuarial information says the odds aren’t good.

            • Sabine

              Teddy Roosevelt never came into my mind, neither did Clinton, go figure 🙂 .

              But the comment really was to the fact that we often elect people who are too old imho as they will not have to live with the results of their governance.

              To me it shows a lack of courage to nominated the same people over and over again, a certain reluctance to admit that the world is changing.
              So we rehash the same shit over and over again.

              I currently see Sherrod Brown, Amy Klobuchar, Kamala Harris as good contenders. Sherrod Brown in particular is good on workers rights, ‘is white’male’flyover country boy’ without any odd baggage that could be held against him.
              Warren will never live down the Pocahontasa slur. But then she is excellent in the Senate.

              there are other option in the Democratic party that are equally as good as the Senator from Vermont. (who should run as an Independent and give both some hard times to the R’s and D’s).

              • Siobhan

                There are times I suspect you of James style trolling, but I’ll take the bait anyway…that’s 3 of the most underwhelming candidates ever.

                Kamala seems your best bet when fighting the ‘old white male’ candidates that so irk you , but if you actually look at her public stands vs her voting you might want to think twice about that. She might as well be an old white male. Though she’s no Bernie Old White Male…


              • Andre

                The problem with Sanders running as an independent is he’s only likely to be a spoiler attracting votes from the left side of the spectrum, thereby helping deliver another term to Agent Drumpfski. He’s very unlikely to pick up any votes from the dayglo daycare escapee’s odd coalition of voters that will even elect a mouldering month-dead corpse if it’s got an R next to it, and middle finger voters.

                My only objection to Sherrod Brown is he’ll be a few days short of 68 on Election Day 2020 – to me that’s getting firmly into old white guy territory. The only older presidents will have been Harrison, Ronnie Raygun, and the rotting Halloween pumpkin.

                At the mo, Kamala would be my pick. The only white guy I’d be interested in is Beto, but I think there’s a good chance the electorate will have come round to thinking high-level governing competence and experience actually does matter, and four years in the House ain’t quite enough.

    • joe90 4.3

      Sanders is not a Democrat.

      He joined the party for a presidential run and left shortly after his primary defeat, and now he’s eyeballing the nomination of a party he didn’t deem fit enough to belong to?


      • arkie 4.3.1

        But he is still the most popular politician in the US (especially with Democratic party members), so why do you insist on this party purity test?


        • joe90

          Critisising someone who wants to use the machine of a party they won’t join ain’t a purity test.

          Sanders has had his moment and came up short and quite frankly, after 45 men, the last thing the world needs is another geriatric male leading the US.

          • arkie

            The thing is popular people actually win elections.

            Who do you think would be better for the Democrats to run in 2020?

            • joe90

              Harris or Gillibrand. And if they run a bloke, Brown, O’Rourke, or Murphy with Duckworth, or one of the above on the ticket.

              • arkie

                Okay, they’ll all need a lot of campaigning for the level of name recognition that Sander’s positions have earned him but I guess that’s what the party machine is for.

        • Sabine

          Because the Democratic party has just shown that they have good progressives in their Party being active, fundraising, grassroot organisation, voter registration, running for office – any office. And most of them were women. And most of them were women of colour.

          Because the progressives in the Democratic party have just won the house, given the R’s a good run for their money to hold the Senate.

          Because the progressives in the Democratic Party have run Democratic candidates in deep red country and won.

          • arkie

            Yes and the progressive wing of the Democratic party has more in common with Sanders and the majority of their voters than it does with the ‘moderates’

            Who do you think would be better for the Democrats to run in 2020?

            • Sabine

              Currently i am liking Sherrod Brown to be honest, and i think he would be getting the tick of approval from Bernie Sanders.


              I do believe it will depend a lot on whom runs on the 2020 ticket for the R’s.
              I don’t see Trump run.
              Not because i don’t like him or because i think he is useless. But i think his health will actually be of an issue.
              Not sure if the current lot of R’s would be as good as the lot that kept Reagan in office when his Alzheimer should actually has gotten him to an old folks home.

              I don’t see Pence run again Trump. Can’t see him win against Trump, to be honest. This might be different that Trump will ‘resign’ for health reasons just before the election and with Pence then being Presnit he could have a chance being re-elected as the incumbent.

              you say: Yes and the progressive wing of the Democratic party has more in common with Sanders and the majority of their voters than it does with the ‘moderates’

              ….. true that, yet , they are all Members of hte Democratic Party, and have run as Democrats, with the full support of the Democratic Party and its grass root members. And there is the difference between these progressives and Bernie Sanders. They are due paying members of the club, and he is not.

              • arkie

                Forgive me but isn’t Sherrod Brown an old white male? Which is your 2nd objection to Sanders?

                Of mainstream Democrats he is better on most issues but he really doesn’t have the name recognition of Sanders. It would require a massive campaign to familiarise the public with him and his positions, with Sanders you don’t need to do that as much. Also if Sanders is elected as a Democratic President, he would be the Head of the Democratic Party; the leader of ‘the club’.

                • Sabine

                  Sherrod Brown 66 – old white geezer
                  Bernie Sanders 77 – an even older white geezer
                  Amy Klobuchar 58 – a not so old white women – i would not mind at all
                  Kamala Harris – 54 – a not so old not white women – would not mind at all.

                  You asked whom i would support. I pointed out Sherrod Brown, who is in the same way as Bernie Sanders, but 11 years his junior. And he is electable. – cause that is what we are talking here about? Right, elect ability.

                  That does not mean i approve of it. i still think that the D need to find someone better, but currently that would my pick.

                  Would i vote for Bernie Sanders if he were the candidate, yes i would.

                  You see how that goes when you are not a purist? You see the trees and the forest.

                  • arkie

                    Okay but you were just dismissing Sanders because he is old and white, and also because he is not part of ‘the club’ of the Democratic party. What I’m saying is those ARE purity tests; he has caucused with Democrats for 40 years and he raised $228,164,501 from mostly individual donors at $27 a time, he is the most popular and trusted politician in the US at the moment; theses are factors in his electability too, and as a pragmatist I would argue that having the most popular politician on your side, representing your side (even if he’s not technically a party member), is the most effective way to win elections.

    • Ad 4.4

      I’m currently preferring Biden for the 2020 run, with Beto as Vice.

      Biden has crossover appeal to sane Republicans. Yes, the US has them, and needs them .In stark contrast to the most inexperienced and polarizing “president” in anyone’s lifetime, Biden by instinct and long experience has the ability to reach across the aisle and attract Trump-weary Republicans who couldn’t abide voting for Hillary in ’16. Democrats simply can’t be assured of winning the White House by themselves. The best way to stop Trump getting another term is to form a voting coalition between the ‘Never Trump’ Republicans and the Democrats. Neither Bernie nor any top-drawer Democrat could do that.

      He can talk to blue-collar and low-educated whites. Hillary lost in ’16 for lots of reasons (the Comey letter, the Russians working for Trump, and being a terrible orator), but her disastrous tallies in the depressed small cities and towns of the Rustbelt fatally breached the Democratic “blue wall.” Biden was raised in Scranton and instinctively connects with the white workers who voted twice for Obama before switching to Trump. That’s the easiest path to victory over the Republicans as well.

      He’s a fighter who gives it as good as he gets. He is who he is; it’s not a pose. Biden was widely criticized last month when he said of Trump, “If we were in high school, I’d take him behind the gym and beat the hell out of him.” May not be a sentiment that everyone shares, but it’s the only way – and I mean the only way – that white poor males are ever going to vote for a strong Democrat candidate again. And again not any other Dem candidate comes close to doing that.

      Beto and Biden would take out Texas and Florida, and probably get Arizona as well. Crack the south that Republicans have held since Nixon; that would be worth it.

      Biden should do one term then bring Beto through for 2024 candidacy.

      Of course, Biden has to really want it, and there’s a sense that it’s well time that he either pissed or got off the pot.

  4. mauī 5

    Galloway discusses the recent conflict between Ukraine and Russia. We do not want or need a war with Russia. The first 10 minutes are particularly great.

    [Disputing moderation is normally an instant ban, maui. Take this as your one and only warning.TRP]

    • fender 5.1

      Thanks substitute Ed, been a few hours since that was posted..

      • Anne 5.1.1


      • greywarshark 5.1.2


      • joe90 5.1.3

        Ed’s sock done did it.

      • veutoviper 5.1.4

        Exactly, fender.

        Good to see TRP has stepped in quickly.

        I had actually drafted up a (detailed with links) comment reminding people that we had a situation earlier this year where Ed tried to get around a ban by getting other people to post links etc on his behalf AND tried to sneak back halfway through his ban by using a different identicon*. Unsuccessfully …

        I have put my detailed comment into my ‘On standby’ folder in Word – with all the links. It can be resurrected if necessary.

        * He has four at my last count.

        • Andre

          Just curious, does the four include the commenter using the handle Paul (banned until late 2020), who had astonishingly similar interests, opinions, commenting style, and reactions to being challenged that Ed does?

          • veutoviper

            Funny you should ask. I don’t know but that possibility arose earlier this year (cannot recall who raised it) but as the Search function here no longer works the only people who could possibly answer that are moderators etc – possibly only Lynn.

            I took a self-imposed break from TS for a year or so and I believe Paul was very active over that period but I don’t recall him or his ban. 2020? Wow.

            On a daily basis, “Past tense” uses a blue one and a pink/violet one which he uses regularly but seems to also have two others which only appear rarely – eg when he tried to use one in March and then another he used late at night a couple of months ago and in comments close to ones using his two usuals. IMO/perception (rightly or wrongly) he seemed to be testing that one out to see whether anyone noticed …

            It is that sort of disrespect for the moderators and dishonestly that I find contemptible – far more so than the continual authoritarian/dictatorial spamming and trolling.

            And no, I am not a stalker! I am a pedant and research/analysis was a big part of my career – with one of my nicknames being “Eagle Eye”. Some of the others are not printable! LOL.

        • greywarshark

          Be kind to Ed, he is concerned about threats to NZ and wants a better outcome than might be. Sincere.

          Try moving on DJ Ward who seems sincere in hating females and despising people in general and too prolific with comments.

        • McFlock

          ed picked up another ban?

          • veutoviper

            Only a couple of days. See OM 3 Dec at 20 and 20.1.1 – also Daily Review 3 Dec at 9 and 9.1.

            The video in 5 above put up by ‘m’ is a repeat of OM 3 Dec @ 20 put up by ‘e’.

            Conspiracy theory of the day = is ‘m’ the alter ego of ‘e’ ? LOL.

            • McFlock

              butbutbut using sockpuppets to pretend that one has more support than one actually does would be dishonest 😮

              • Andre

                Do I hear an irritating little insect whine around a handle with academic pretensions and lax personal grooming?

            • Andre

              Nah, don’t think so. “m” has very different verbal mannerisms. Just a groupie, I reckon.

  5. Dennis Frank 6

    Bryce Edwards on the parliamentary bullying inquiry: “Will complainants confine themselves to using the official channels of what is an inquiry with a relatively narrow ambit and very limited ability to research and achieve much? Already, former parliamentary staff are choosing to go outside of the review, using the media to make their complaints public – see Kirsty Johnston and Derek Cheng’s Herald article from the weekend: Former staff accuse National MP Maggie Barry of bullying.”

    “The Barry scandal may be the first of many revelations and allegations to come out about MPs in this fashion. Staffers are likely to see that Mallard’s review is relatively limited in scope and likely impact, and instead choose to go public. I explained some of the review’s shortcomings on The AM Show this morning – see: Simon Bridges bats off Maggie Barry allegations, says staff have a ‘spring in their step’. By front-footing the problem, but at the same time allocating few resources and setting such a limited scope, Mallard is likely hoping he has done just enough to assuage public concern.”

    “Herald columnist Lizzie Marvelly has some similar concerns, arguing the inquiry needs more teeth: “While I support the spirit of the review, from the few details currently released to the public, I doubt it has been equipped with enough firepower to make a significant difference. It doesn’t have the power to subpoena documents, and will rely heavily on self-disclosure from affected staff. Most of the information gathered will never be released to either the public or Parliamentary Services” – see: What will spill out when the rug is lifted?”

    How big is the can of worms? If they spill out even more into the public arena, pressure may indeed grow to go further than Mallard’s careful restrictions allow.

    “The review will need to deal with some of the core issues about how Parliament operates – especially in terms of the peculiar employment arrangements of the staff that work for politicians. Although their bosses are in practice the MPs, legally they are actually employed by the two main agencies of the Parliamentary Service and Ministerial Services.” https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12170550

    “This means that, quite often when there is a problem between an MP and employee, a payment is simply made to the employee to make the problem go away. The employee leaves with a payout, and the taxpayer pays for it, with no great consequences for the MP.” A system of tax-payer funded cover-ups isn’t a good look. Not even slightly. It’s a relic of the patriarchy.

    “National Party blogger David Farrar has also commented on this problem: “The Parliamentary Service is the employer and hence they pay for any costs of any employment disputes etc. There isn’t a huge financial incentive for MPs to avoid employment disputes. If you changed the arrangement so the parliamentary party or even the MP was the formal employer, then you could well end up with better incentives as if you have to pay out a dissatisfied staff members say $15,000 that is $15,000 less money you have for newsletters etc” – see: Maggie Barry accusations.”

    “A further problem is that the parliamentary employment agencies have a reputation for being totally subservient to the MPs, which makes the staff even more vulnerable. One former staffer is quoted by Henry Cooke saying: “When you would go to Ministerial Services they very much had the attitude of ‘Yes, Minister’ ‘Whatever the minster wants the minister gets. They didn’t give a s….'” – see Henry Cooke’s Is Parliament a safe place to work? MPs and Speaker disagree. This is best illustrated by Melanie Reid and Cass Mason’s important article, Bullied at Parliament – and nobody helped.”

    “Just how toxic is Parliament?” We’ll see. “The only person who has been seriously bullied around this place is one Winston Peters” said the NZF leader, raising the possibility that we have more than one. Just trying to scare the media?

    Duncan Garner worked there 17 years: “Parliament could be a bomb site by the end of this inquiry. You see that place rewards the winner and the loser is humiliated. The more public the humiliation then job done… I expect this review to highlight the total power imbalance between the worker and the MP, the drinking, the relationships, the Wellington wife, the sex, wanted and unwanted, the daily humiliation of the weak and of the wrong.”

    • Muttonbird 6.1

      No surprise Farrar is enthusiastic about the privatising of parliamentary staff. Donations to, and fundraising by, National are about 2:1 over Labour so if staff were employed directly by the party then National would’ve a massive advantage.

      We’ve already seen National are quick to open the chequebook and present the NDAs to staff who have been victims of their machine and need shutting up. This is because they have the money, and lack the morals.

      Also interesting that Farrar sees no problem in the status quo – an environment of bad bosses, ritual humiliation, and bullying. This of course runs counter to JA’s determination to bring kindness to politics.

    • greywarshark 6.2

      The staff for the MPs are provided by the State Services Commission, and if they are not up to standard then it needs to be dealt with by the Commission. They act as a provider to the MPs, and there should be a meeting, discussion and mediation if there are problems. If the MPs source their own staff and make the decision as to whom to employ then problems would be theirs. But there is a possibility of family members being involved and their work and integrity not being adequate, which is less likely when the staff is in the Commission’f oversight.

      Problems of suitability should be able to be expressed and met by the Commission so that the MP has choice, perhaps from five possible and suitable applicants.
      That is likely to be impractical, to get those numbers, bit enabling the MP to have choice, which at present I don’t think they do, would be a forward movement.

      • solkta 6.2.1

        The staff for the MPs are provided by the State Services Commission,

        Bollocks. They are employed by Parliamentary Service but they are selected by the MPs themselves.

        • veutoviper

          Exactly, solkta.

          I sometimes think grey lives on a different planet, but they certainly have very little/no knowledge or understanding of how our government works, or any of the procedures/processes relating to its administration including staffing,

          • greywarshark

            You are so bloody rude vv all you needed to say was that I was incorrect.

            • veutoviper

              After your ignorant comments about Jews the other night, grey, I will no longer just pass over such comments and ignore them, and will call you out. Also your comments about Public Servants last night on OM at 19.1.

              Neither Jews, nor Public Servants are a homogeneous group who all think the same or all act the same – as you implied in those comments and many more over the years. I find such comments not just bloody rude, but ignorant and bigotted.

              I stand by my comments above – based on many of your comments I have ignored in the past, or have tried to help your understanding by providing informed replies with lots of information and links to help you.

  6. Morrissey 7

    Moronic Matty McLean all moist-eyed and upset over Maori Santa;
    Then, even worse, he gets his balls busted by Hayley Holt.

    TVNZ1 Breakfast, Monday 3 December 2018

    inane adj. 1 empty, insubstantial; 2 asinine, witless; 3 lacking significance, meaning, or point : silly inane comments.

    7:35 a.m.

    MATTY THE WEATHER GUY: [eyes moist with emotion, face twisted with sincerity] If you’re a four or five year old child and you don’t see the Santa you were expecting, it would BREAK YOUR HEART.

    HAYLEY HOLT: It’s breaking YOUR heart.

    ….[Stunned silence. MATTY THE WEATHER GUY looks wounded, JACK TAME looks shocked]….

    7:41 a.m.

    JACK TAME: [grinning enthusiastically] This is great, this is GREAT! I’m GLAD we’re debating this! Isn’t it good that we live in a country where THIS is the biggest issue!

    ….[Embarrassed silence. HAYLEY HOLT barely restrains herself from indulging in a moue.]….




  7. Sabine 8

    Does anyone feel the summer? Cause its thunder and lightening, very very frightening here in Rotorua.

    Looks like winter, feels like winter, i don’t think spring/summer ever arrived.

    • solkta 8.1

      22.5 degrees in the North right now heading for a high of 24.

      • Anne 8.1.1

        Doesn’t feel like 22/3 degrees in Auckland. Thunderstorm went on and on and on… but looks like finally clearing. Chaos across the city by all accounts.

        • WeTheBleeple

          Just had our wettest recorded (since 1965) December hour with 31.4 mm in Auckland.

          This sounds ridiculous till you see the one-hour record holder, Leigh: with 109 mm in May 2001.

          Tried to clear a drain up the road a bit but it wasn’t blocked by leaves, the leaves were hiding that it was full of leaves and silt up to the grill. Doh! They will have to fix their own drain.

          I’m at home enjoying my rain garden which didn’t bat an eyelid with 13 000 litres soaked into a 30 sq m footprint. The Kokopu downslope of my section appreciate the effort. Years back I found some aestivating – lying in the damp mud under a rock head to tail like sardines, helpless, with stream completely dry. They can survive weeks like this but it’s not a good look.

          Rain gardens replenish groundwater which recharge streams and aquifers while mitigating flood damage.

          Tanks help too.

        • Sabine

          it was pitch black out here, lots of lightening and thunder.
          Cold. Very cold. Very wet. Rotorua.

          The darkness gets me. It is supposed to be light till late etc, but nope, yesterday at 7 i had my lights on cause it was dark wet and rainy. It has been dark wet and rainy for several weeks now with occasionally a day of nice dry sunny thrown in.

          All my veggies in the garden are stunted.

          • WeTheBleeple

            Most of my gardens are raised to help with drainage now. I started doing that because of heavy clay, and now with all the extra water from rain, it really helps. And mulch to stop erosion if plants aren’t covering the soil. Your weather does sound crap though.

            Rotorua’s wastewater has cropped up in the news cycle again. If it’s as clean as they say it is, why aren’t they selling it to Hawke’s Bay farmers 😀

            If they can’t dump it or sell it, they can perhaps use it.

            I think a large wetlands. Strategically placed to percolate into the land and help maintain groundwater flow for rivers and or/aquifers. Turn it into tourism, conservation, wildlife habitat, boating, walking, bird watching, education, culture, rare timbers, honey, medicines…

            You’d only need to convert one or two farms…

  8. BM 9

    From daily review.

    Daily Review 03/12/2018

    I put up a video about cows, methane and surprise, got accused of being a denialist

    I realize this is a touchy subject, but people probably misunderstood where I was coming from, I’m not a scientist or have vast in-depth knowledge of climate change.
    I posted a video which I thought was interesting as it was saying something completely different from what I’ve seen in the media and thought I’d put it up here and get feedback.

    Asking questions doesn’t make one a denialist.

    Now about methane

    Methane concentrations have increased from around 775 parts per billion in pre-industrial times to around 1800 now, due entirely to human activities

    In the video methane and ruminants(cows) was shown to be a natural cycle where methane was endlessly recycled and nothing changed and everything was kept in balance, obviously if more cattle are added then the amount of methane would increase.
    So I went and had a look to see if cow/beef numbers have increased massively in the past 50 years and surprisingly they’ve been rather static.

    That also got me thinking pre industrial there must have been a shit tonne of natural ruminants like Bison , Deer etc. and before them big animals like mammoths which would have been belching out methane by the tonne as well as many wetlands which have been destroyed due to farming

    I then came across this article which I found interesting.

    The question the author was trying to answer was why methane levels didn’t start to rise until the industrial age.

    According to the author
    One reason methane levels remained flat was that cattle and other ruminants (wild and domesticated) lived in intact grassland ecosystems and helped build healthy soils that contain soil microbes called methanotrophs that reduce atmospheric methane (2). Thus maintained grassland ecosystems function as methane sinks, and bank as much as 15% of the earth’s methane (3) Tillage for crops reduces the soil’s capacity to bank methane (as does exposed uncovered soil) plus also releases carbon into the atmosphere (4). Use of synthetic fertilizers also adversely impacts soil methanotrophs (5). Glyphosate in no tilled systems according to industry funded research doesn’t impact soil microbial activity. Though research by other researchers contradicts this industry perspective and details how herbicides like glyphosate adversely change the makeup of soil microbes (6).

    If that is the case because all our dairy and beef is grass fed we do not actually have that much of an impact on global methane levels? should we even be paying carbon taxes?

    Or if we do shouldn’t it be more vegetable growers and not so much farmers?

    The author points the finger more at natural gas and writes.

    Meanwhile the methane from fracking and natural gas extraction, transportation and refining, in general, apparently has been underestimated significantly maybe by 5 times or 500% per some recent studies on this topic (9). Not to mention China is massively increasing their use of natural gas and fracking. Coincidentally, the largest increases in methane levels occurred in the 1960’s when natural gas use increased significantly- nearly ten-fold.

    Remember not a heretic, just asking questions and trying to increase knowledge.

    • Dennis Frank 9.1

      With regard to any complex system, descriptions inevitably simplify it. It’s how the mind works – just look at how much a map simplifies the territory it represents. Nothing wrong with what you wrote, just keep in mind that other factors will be missing. Only a specialist can be expected to fully account for all methane sources and sinks!

      The only point for me to quibble is re cattle numbers, so I copied this from a govt website: “The total number of dairy cattle increased 68.6 percent, from 3.84 million in 1994 to 6.47 million in 2017”. So whatever gave you the impression they’ve been static for half a century seems wrong.

      Globally? “The world cattle inventory in 2017 is at 998.3 million head. The population of the world in 2017 is estimated at 7.4 billion people. The world’s cattle inventory per capita is .13 head. Uruguay has the most cattle per capita in the world followed by New Zealand & Argentina. Uruguay has 3.44 head of cattle per capita. Five countries have more cattle than people: Uruguay, New Zealand, Argentina, Australia & Brazil.” http://beef2live.com/story-world-cattle-inventory-vs-human-population-country-0-111575

      The comparative table on that page rates NZ @ 2.17 per capita, Argentina 1.22, Australia 1.14, Brazil 1.08. I found a graph that shows the global cattle population has reached a plateau: https://www.statista.com/statistics/263979/global-cattle-population-since-1990/

      • BM 9.1.1

        So you don’t consider cows(ruminants) to be the evil they’ve been made out to be?

        I’m not a farmer or have ever been involved in the farming industry, my interest in this is that taxpayers are going to be whacked with carbon taxes because of cow methane emissions.

        • Dennis Frank

          Well I’ve agreed with the carbon tax in principle since I first encountered it almost 30 years ago. I would reserve judgment on any legislation until it is designed and written. Bad laws always need revision or elimination.

          See how it works in practice. Market forces always produce a race to the bottom, eh? Adding to that pressure is problematic. I don’t think we need more farmers driven to suicide: enough of that already from the free market, eh?

    • Andre 9.2

      Ok, if not denialist, then special pleading.

      The problem remains that farming cows (and sheep) by current methods results in more methane emissions and resulting warming than alternative uses of that land. (Well, maybe rice paddies are worse, but CBF looking it up). In New Zealand’s case, there were no significant methane producing wild animals in pre-industrial times, so the argument that methane from modern farm animals are just stepping into the place of a pre-existing natural cycle becomes nonsense right from the starting point. That’s without even taking a close look at how the last few decades’ worth of shift to dairy conversions, general intensification and other changes in our mix from sheep to cattle have changed our emissions profile.

      The intensive farming practices we now use are not part of a natural cycle. As your LA chefs link notes, synthetic fertilizers, tilling, etc generally adversely affect the methanotrophs in soils. I vaguely recall something about how the types of grasses we feed farmed cattle, together with the changes we’ve induced by selectively breeding cattle for increased milk production also increase methane production over the original wild animals (no, I CBF trying to find those references again). Given that all emissions from whatever source are a problem, even if the argument the modern practices are simply continuing at pre-industrial levels were true (which is highly unlikely), the fact that emissions could be reduced by changing those practices is yet another reason agriculture should be held accountable for its emissions.

      However, when it comes to reducing those emissions, I part company with a lot of greenies in that I support use of all reasonable tools such as genetic modification for such projects as the high metabolisable energy grasses developed here in NZ, but need to be tested overseas because of local opposition and regs. Note also that meat from non-ruminants such as chicken, pork, kangaroo, horse also has much less methane emission and less warming effect than beef and sheep, for those (like me) who find going full vegetarian a bit too far.

      Yes, fracking probably contributes a lot more than industry owns up to. As probably do other fossil fuel activities (I suspect coal mining in particular). There’s a lot of ongoing effort to measure and quantify all that. And no, they shouldn’t be let off the hook because of some kind of special pleading argument either. Nor should other agricultural activities like rice growing or palm oil.

      A couple of useful initial links about atmospheric methane. The Skeptical Science is definitely old, but the comments are worth reading. And the usual caveats about wikipedia, but the tables are useful.



      • BM 9.2.1

        The problem remains that farming cows (and sheep) by current methods results in more methane emissions and resulting warming than alternative uses of that land. (Well, maybe rice paddies are worse, but CBF looking it up). In New Zealand’s case, there were no significant methane producing wild animals in pre-industrial times, so the argument that methane from modern farm animals are just stepping into the place of a pre-existing natural cycle becomes nonsense right from the starting point.

        Isn’t methane a global issue?, the cows in NZ replace some of the Bison herd that got wiped out in the US?

        • solkta

          Ummm, don’t you think they might have a beef and dairy industries in the US? And many times the equivalent of Bison?

          • BM

            Just saying you can’t look at NZ in isolation.

            Isn’t that why we have to take climate change so seriously, otherwise it’s a waste of time us doing anything because our emissions are infinitesimal and if we all drop dead tomorrow it wouldn’t make one iota of difference.

            • solkta

              Then there is those huge areas of South America cleared of rainforest to graze beef. There has been intensification all over the globe.

        • Crashcart

          I think you are missing the intesification part. As you pointed out in the first comment Ruminant animals use to roam and the spreading of dung contributed to the health of soil that increased its ability to soak Methane. Just from my reading of what you had (I am no expert either) I would imagine that containing the same or more animals in smaller area’s counters some of the balance that was obtained through soil storage. It would also I imagine contribute to less absorbtion of waste and hence increased run off that gets in to our water ways.

        • Andre

          Yes, methane is a global problem. So is CO2, which the general public is already paying for under the ETS (a tiny fraction of what should be paid, but payment nonetheless). Along with a bunch of other problem gases like refrigerants.

          Why should agriculture get a free ride? Especially when there’s high emissions and low emissions ways of farming, and the entire point of using emissions pricing like the ETS or greenhouse gas tax is to incentivise people to change what they’re doing to a lower emissions mode. Y’know pricing signals, market forces and all that stuff.

      • WeTheBleeple 9.2.2

        We don’t need the headache trying to push something the public aren’t ready to swallow (GE). Also a lot of BS passes for truth in corporate sponsored science these days. I don’t trust em to save my world.

        Put the research dollars into homoacetogens. Selectively breed them in a biodigestor to effectively take up methane in low hydrogen environments (better compete with methanogens in the rumen). Then, (some of) the components of methane would go toward SCFA’s for milk and meat production instead of global warming.

        You could inoculate these bacteria on the red kelp that reduce methane but also
        lower meat/milk yield a little. The methane would get a double hit and be reduced considerably, meat/milk production should remain the same or even improve.

        • Andre

          The HME grasses aren’t a corporate money-grubbing scheme, they were developed by one of our government agencies. So while I’m extremely suspicious of any kind of GE breakthrough technologies touted by a corporate sales weasel, I don’t feel quite the need to be as suspicious of the motives and integrity of government funded scientists that aren’t being driven by a profit motive. Some suspicion is still warranted, to be sure, as is an expectation that benefits will be exaggerated and drawbacks not talked about as much as they should be.

          As to where to put research dollars, it’s not an either or thing. We can look at a big selection of different approaches. No one single thing is going to “save us”, improvements will mostly come from a bunch of smaller things. Besides, “saving us” is kind of an irrelevant idea since we’re already fucked, the question now is how bad is it going to get.

          • WeTheBleeple

            Note how, despite their absolute awareness of public perception, they carry on with GE regardless.

            Clonal monoculture, when the call is clearly for biodiversity.

            Arrogant much.

            Then you cheer lead GE instead of discussing a valid solution that wouldn’t screw our GE free status.

            But discussion is not relevant because climate change.

            • WeTheBleeple

              And Crisp’r….

              Here’s someone on it’s use on human embryos this morning (Science Deadline)

              “University of Otago lecturer Dr Jeanne Snelling, from the Bioethics Centre and Faculty of Law, said the initial reports were “extremely concerning”.

              “Most of the international scientific community agree that it the science is far too premature for CRISPR research to be used in a clinical context.”

              So why are y’all claiming it’s perfectly safe for plants and animals?

              Scientists in lockstep, parroting each other. Brilliant people talking utter horseshit.

  9. vto 10

    It’s almost 2019, and will be 140 years since men got the vote.

    Yay, let’s celebrate

    It seems pretty much nobody is aware of this

    • RedLogix 10.1

      Hi … welcome back. As for a sensible response to your comment … my self-censor won that small battle 🙂

      • vto 10.1.1

        Hi Red, thanks but I will try not to hang around too much – end up annoying too many. Though it is difficult to find places to exchange political thoughts out in the outer world …

        • swordfish

          No … actually in the past you’ve only ended up annoying a tiny Identity politics fringe

          … by committing the Cardinal Sin of advocating the classic Leftist notion of universally applicable human rights, rather than the self-interested particularism currently fashionable among Luvvie elites (who disproportionately appear to emanate from remarkably Privileged backgrounds).

          If I remember rightly, you were essentially hounded off this site by one or two individuals from the Intersectional fringe who:

          – had rarely if ever commented here before

          – nevertheless posed as regulars

          – purported to speak for everyone else

          – aggressively attempted to isolate you / treat you as a heretic

          The last two are, of course, the classic manoeuvres of Cult enforcers.

          • Muttonbird

            It would be easier for those who don’t know what’s going on if you’d say who hounded vto off the board. I don’t know what Intersectional fringe means.

    • Dennis Frank 10.2

      “By 1876 piecemeal reform efforts had created a bewildering range of different franchises for freeholders, leaseholders, householders, goldminers, lodgers, ratepayers and Māori (Māori men had been granted universal suffrage in 1867, to vote in four special Māori seats). There seemed to be majority support in Parliament for a simple manhood suffrage, but further action was undermined by the unstable political scene of the late 1870s.”

      “In 1878 two rival bills were introduced: one by Robert Stout, the young attorney-general in George Grey’s government, the other by his predecessor, Frederick Whitaker, then in Opposition. Whitaker’s radical bill – it proposed proportional representation and allocating Māori seats on a per capita basis – failed to gain support. The government bill stalled in the Legislative Council (the upper house) and was eventually abandoned.”

      “Grey’s government was soon defeated and a new election held. In October 1879 John Hall formed a new government and Whitaker returned to Cabinet. He introduced a new Qualification of Electors Bill, granting the vote to all adult European males after 12 months’ residence in New Zealand and six months in an electorate. This was comfortably passed on 19 December.”

      “The next election, on 9 December 1881, was the first held under the new franchise and also the first in which voting in all European electorates took place on the same day. Manhood suffrage had an immediate impact. In 1879 there were 82,271 registered voters – about 71% of the adult male Pākehā population. In 1881 there were 120,972 (91%).” https://nzhistory.govt.nz/page/universal-male-suffrage-introduced

      • Molly 10.2.1

        “…Māori (Māori men had been granted universal suffrage in 1867, to vote in four special Māori seats).

        The history of Māori voting is much more interesting than that small inclusion. And it might surprise many to find that Māori voting rights in general elections was only achieved during our generation – in 1967. (Edit: my generation)

        The establishment of Māori seats was partly to allow for those with communal property rights the right to vote as only landowners possessed that privilege, but also, I believe, to establish a system that mimicked true suffrage but did not provide it.

        It’s worthwhile looking into if you have no prior knowledge of that history.

    • veutoviper 10.3

      Wow – thats a voice from the vast! How long is it? Welcome back,

      As another “v”, it is great to see you. And yes, let’s celebrate men’s anniversary of their vote next year. As a woman, it was great to celebrate women’s 125th this year, but I am an equality advocate and definitely agree we should celebrate the 140th.

      I was not aware of this, so its my today’s ‘you learn something new every day’ moment.

      • vto 10.3.1

        Hi veutoviper,, yep few people know that men never had the vote either..

        .. all power and voting was held by those in the elites – property owners, lords and those types..

        I think it is important to understand this because it shows what our true battle is – namely, a class battle and not a gender battle.

        • veutoviper

          I did know that the vote was restricted to the male elite landed classes etc but was not aware that it would be the 140th anniversary next year of it being widened albeit still only to males.

          As Molly points out the history of Maori voting is much bigger than just the 1867 allowances.

          Perhaps we could look at some posts over the summer break on these issues …

  10. greywarshark 12

    Where there is money, guns and law-breaking, it is dangerous territory.
    Poaching game animals etc. has been on air this morning on Radionz.


  11. greywarshark 13

    Euthanasia and the eternal discourse and debate and discussion about ethics and possible loss of some months, years of life as if we are appealing to a parole board for the right to be released, and someone might get some money and help with their life instead of waiting for years and having the capital saved used up by profit-making companies looking after the bodies of slowly dying people …. And the opinions of the fine members of the medical profession who don’t want change and who assume godly responsibility which they then say they don’t want, and religion that tries to interfere with the individual’s right to go to God or face the time beyond if there is such, and everyone who doesn’t care about what others want, and don’t want to facilitate loving concerned action following a pattern laid down by law with suitably appointed people from a group who have registered as willing to help with the right attitudes of compassion and probity. How is this for a brick rant from someone who feels very strongly that we are remiss personally and nationally in preventing legal euthanasia to be planned, consulted o n, developed and begun.

    And this:

    • Molly 13.1

      One of my main concerns is that we currently have no systems that are well-resourced and robust enough to make the clinical decisions and necessary precautions against unwarranted euthanasia treatments.

      Our healthcare system – already underresourced – is not suitably equipped for a role of such gravity and surety.

    • WeTheBleeple 13.2

      I wrote a small comedy segment on euthanasia a couple of night ago. It’s probably in poor taste but the idea of how far it could be taken. And when corporate minds see it as opportunity.

      Ad jingle

      Have you had enough
      Don’t worry about your stuff
      You can leave it with us
      0800 Free Bus

      With no annoying counselors.

      • greywarshark 13.2.1

        After one gets resigned to the idea of getting older, and actually dying (how can the world continue without me thought) then laughing at death jokes is possible. I like Terry Pratchett’s DEATH in capitals, he makes him very sure and certain, except when he goes off the beaten path. Do you like Pratchett?

        I like the idea of people developing micro business ideas. You could sell your jingle to an alternative card manufacturer, I think it would get sales as black humour.

        • WeTheBleeple

          Pratchett, I don’t not like it, but I never sought it out.

          The jingle follows some other material on euthanasia for a stand up set.

          I could certainly churn out dark gift cards.


          “Another mouth to feed?

          How wonderful!”


          “Sorry for your loss. Dibs on the Silverware.”

  12. Molly 14

    Sorry – meant to reply to grey above. Have deleted duplicate comment.

    • greywarshark 14.1

      Molly thanks
      But you add to the problem – refusing to face up to the need for euthanasia. The health system can’t cope, and still life is being artificially extended with medications and regular resuscitations and aid. Saying the health system should be improved before anything is done just avoids admitting that the whole system is overloaded, demand is exceeding the ability to ever cope, and some hard decisions will be forced on us eventually.

      I and others want decisions to carry forward our proposals for euthanasis made now when the outcomes will be kindly and soft, not hard. So please everybody pull finger. We are sick of waiting for you tentative people to listen and act intelligently. People cast themselves as kind and concerned when they are just not wanting to accept real life needs.

      • Molly 14.1.1

        I understand the need for dignified choice to end life. I have recently watched a friend go through chemotherapy treatment for leukemia. She says that at times she wished to die and would have welcomed the relief, and even though – thankfully she is in remission – she is not comfortable with the idea that doctors (in a fallible health system) would be given the authority to make that decision.

        I support rights of those who are in unremitting pain or health to choose the manner in which they live – or die. I’m just not convinced that there will be protocols and resources in place to ensure that that right will not be misused or abused.

        If you want to discuss how that is to be achieved – then I’m willing to listen.

        (I also think we should at the same time be concerned about the underresourcing of our health system for those who are working towards a better quality of life, and effective pain management and support. Having euthanasia as a well-funded option may influence any moves towards that resourcing. So, the two issues are connected.)

        • greywarshark

          Thank you Molly for your thoughts and i will get to them later. At present I need to get out in the sun, we have some at present. I am concerned at the hard lines being taken on TS just lately, it seems as if the commenters here given their heads would bring in an authoritarian system rather than a co-operative form of democracy, more participative than domineering the rank and file approach. It is screwing my head.

          • Molly

            All good grey. Enjoy that sunshine.

            I think euthanasia, along with other topics such as abortion benefit from ongoing and sincere discussion. I do have concerns re the evolution of euthanasia both as it is proposed and if it is ever implemented. But will wait till you get back.

  13. Dennis Frank 16

    Update on the UK govt’s war against parliament: “On 13 November, the Commons unanimously agreed to a motion put down by Labour calling for the legal advice on the Brexit deal to be published “in full”. Conservative MPs were told to abstain after it became clear that the government was not certain of winning the vote when the DUP said it would vote with Labour.”

    Geoffrey Cox, the attorney general, “told the Commons on Monday that the government had made a mistake at the time. He said: “We should have opposed it,” although he added that he would not have complied even if the vote had been lost. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/03/cabinet-minister-suspension-brexit-legal-advice-deal

    Yesterday a motion was tabled in parliament that “calls on MPs to find “ministers in contempt for their failure to comply” and is signed by Labour’s Brexit spokesman Sir Keir Starmer, the DUP’s Westminster leader Nigel Dodds, and the Scottish National party, Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru and the Green party.” This will be voted on later today, so we may wake up tomorrow to the news that the UK cabinet has been found to have acted in contempt of parliament.

  14. joe90 17

    One forward, two back.

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow said on Monday the United States wants to end subsidies for electric cars and other items including renewable energy sources.

    Asked about actions planned after General Motors announced U.S. plant closings and layoffs last week, Kudlow said he expected subsidies for buying electric cars will end in 2020 or 2021. Kudlow said the Trump administration sees an end to other subsidies, including on “renewables.”

    “As a matter of our policy, we want to end all of those subsidies. And by the way, other subsidies that were imposed during the Obama administration, we are ending, whether it’s for renewables and so forth,” Kudlow told reporters.


  15. joe90 18

    Latest wingnut slur; the Kashoggi murderers donated to the Clinton Foundation.

    • joe90 19.1

      The list of demands from a movement with no leader and no policies, but apparently anyone can turn up in a hi-vis vest they’re part of the movement.


      edit: buggered if I can get the translate html to work so here’s the google translation cut and paste

      Favor the small beginnings of the villages and town centers. (Stop the construction of large commercial areas around major cities that kill the small business) + free parking in city centers.
      Large Housing Isolation Plan. (make ecology by saving households).
      That WHOLESALE (Macdo, google, Amazon, Carrefour …) pay LARGE and that the small (artisans, TPE PME) pay small.
      Same social security system for everyone (including artisans and autoentrepreneurs). End of the RSI.
      The pension system must remain in solidarity and therefore socialized. (No point of retirement).
      End of the tax hike on fuel.
      No retirement below 1,200 euros.
      Any elected representative will be entitled to the median salary. His transport costs will be monitored and reimbursed if they are justified. Right to the restaurant ticket and the holiday voucher.
      The wages of all French people as well as pensions and allowances must be indexed to inflation.
      Protecting French industry: prohibiting relocation. Protecting our industry is protecting our know-how and our jobs.
      End of detached work. It is abnormal that a person who works on French territory does not benefit from the same salary and the same rights. Anyone who is authorized to work on French territory must be on a par with a French citizen and his employer must contribute at the same level as a French employer.
      For job security: further limit the number of fixed-term contracts for large companies. We want more CDI.
      End of the CICE. Use this money for the launch of a French hydrogen car industry (which is truly ecological, unlike the electric car.)
      End of the austerity policy. We are ceasing to repay the interest on the debt that is declared illegitimate and we are starting to repay the debt without taking the money from the poor and the poorest but by fetching the $ 80 billion in tax evasion.
      That the causes of forced migration are treated.
      That asylum seekers be treated well. We owe them housing, security, food and education for the miners. Work with the UN to have host camps open in many countries around the world, pending the outcome of the asylum application.
      That the unsuccessful asylum seekers be returned to their country of origin.
      That a real integration policy is implemented. Living in France means becoming French (French language course, History of France course and civic education course with certification at the end of the course).
      Maximum salary set at 15,000 euros.
      That jobs are created for the unemployed.
      Increase of disabled allowances.
      Limitation of rents. + moderate rent housing (especially for students and precarious workers).
      Prohibition to sell property belonging to France (airport dam …)
      Substantial means granted to the justice system, the police, the gendarmerie and the army. That law enforcement overtime be paid or recovered.
      All the money earned by highway tolls will be used to maintain highways and roads in France and road safety.
      As the price of gas and electricity has increased since privatization, we want them to become public again and prices fall significantly.
      Immediate closure of small lines, post offices, schools and maternity wards.
      Let’s bring wellness to our seniors. Prohibition of making money on the elderly. The gray gold is finished. The era of gray well-being begins.
      Maximum 25 students per class from kindergarten to 12th grade.
      Substantial means brought to psychiatry.
      The People’s Referendum must enter the Constitution. Creating a readable and effective site, supervised by an independent control body where people can make a proposal for a law. If this bill obtains 700,000 signatures then this bill will have to be discussed, completed, amended by the National Assembly which will have the obligation, (one year to the day after obtaining the 700,000 signatures) to submit it. to the vote of all the French.
      Back to a 7-year term for the President of the Republic. (The election of deputies two years after the election of the President of the Republic made it possible to send a positive or negative signal to the President of the Republic concerning his policy, so it helped to make the voice of the people heard.)
      Retirement at age 60 and for all those who have worked in a trade using the body (mason or boner for example) right to retirement at 55 years.
      A 6-year-old child not guarding himself alone, continuation of the PAJEMPLOI help system until the child is 10 years old

  16. Morrissey 20

    I’m sorry to have to report….

    ….that the good folks at Kiwiblog have taken to my new series like a cat takes to water.


  17. greywarshark 21

    A decision about a Wellington development but one that relates to all the country’s coastline.
    Appeal Court rejects plan for new development at Shelly Bay
    (And has some thoughtful comments making relevant points which
    would seem to have been worthy of notice by WCC.)

    By the way Scoop raised its crowdfunding for its Scoop 3.0 project.

  18. greywarshark 22

    Hydrogen in Auckland.

    Ports of Auckland to build Auckland’s first hydrogen production and refuelling facility
    Auckland Council, KiwiRail & Auckland Transport supporting the project
    Investing for a sustainable future…

    Ports of Auckland will fund the construction of a facility which will produce hydrogen fromtap water. The process uses electrolysis to split water into hydrogen (which is then stored for later use) and oxygen, which is released into the air. Demonstration vehicles will be able to fill up with hydrogen at the facility, which will be just like filling up a car with CNG or LPG. Hydrogen is used in the fuel cell to create electricity which powers the car. The only by-product of the process is water.

    Are the words ‘tap water’ significant? I am not sure but highlighted it because it is a familiar resource and I know more about it than petrol, batteries, lithium etc. which I don’t get out of a tap.

  19. eco maori 23

    Kia ora The Am Show that’s a good poll 70 % of people back raising the age of legally drinking alcohol two 20 years of age you know that it’s about balancing thing on the facts and not on the lies and proper gander spread by some trolls who the neo’s are pouring money into there hip pocket to create chaos .
    There you go the britexit Paris riots the alt right have some countrys by the.
    short and curly s the fuel rise in Paris doe not even bring there price of fuel anywhere near to the prices we pay here.
    I agree we want the best for our children I say we need to change the way we teach one thing I know when one keep using the same model making the same mistake all the time and wonder why the education sector keep failing the poor & the minority cultures some thing is wrong . Time to look outside the square box and find simple changes to improve the low % of the mokopuna’s in those categories getting a higher education / Trade employment skills start these trade training at school.
    Tova there you go dairydack is a big problem like Pee Crack ect these are causing a lot of harm.
    I say using the shaming of nuclear weapons is the way to go and banning them to all the money spent on nuclear weapons could make billions of peoples lives much more healthy & happier.
    It was ka pai to see that Jacinda has been ranked the 20 most powerful Wahine of Papatuanuku .
    There you go a lot the next generation know exactly what is causing the most harm to OUR Society the facts steers us in the face .
    Carly sugar TAX is what is needed now Britain took ten years of debating to do this we are the 3 highest country in Papatuanuku for Obesity Ka kite ano .This tax will save lives and billions in future health cost Its no rocket science

  20. eco maori 24

    Action to fight global warming is coming whether world leaders like it or not, school student Greta Thunberg has told the UN climate change summit, accusing them of behaving like irresponsible children.
    Many thanks to Greta Thunberg, for her big effort and the Great Idea to get all the World’s children to protest about what some parents are doing to there future dening or inaction to combat climate change Greta Thunberg 15, told UN summit that students are acting in absence of global leadership Mana Wahine 5 month’s of protesting at Parliament .
    Thunberg began a solo climate protest by striking from school in Sweden in August. But more than 20,000 students around the world have now joined her. The school strikes have spread to at least 270 towns and cities in countries across the world, including Australia, the United Kingdom, Belgium, the US and Japan.

    “For 25 years countless people have come to the UN climate conferences begging our world leaders to stop emissions and clearly that has not worked as emissions are continuing to rise. So I will not beg the world leaders to care for our future,” she said. “I will instead let them know change is coming whether they like it or not.”

    “Since our leaders are behaving like children, we will have to take the responsibility they should have taken long ago,” she said. “We have to understand what the older generation has dealt to us, what mess they have created that we have to clean up and live with. We have to make our voices heard.”

    The conference of nearly 200 nations is taking place in Katowice, Poland, and its main task is to turn the vision of tackling global warming agreed in Paris in 2015 into concrete action. On Monday, Sir David Attenborough told the summit that without action “the collapse of our civilisations and the extinction of much of the natural world is on the horizon”.
    We know who is behaving the worst Ka kite ano Links below.


  21. eco maori 25

    Many thanks to Elon Mus as well If its was not for him the oil barons would be winning the war in carbon v green energy I am a big fan of Nikola Tesla we know the bad people won the war against him.
    Of all Musk’s companies, Tesla may be the most famous. Its namesake Nikola Tesla was a great innovator but asocial and died penniless while others capitalised on his inventions.
    The company itself has made impressive strides and has just hit the goal of making 7000 Model-3 Tesla cars a week.

    “They kind of maybe don’t get enough credit for that – because Elon made some ridiculous predictions for how many cars they’d be producing by now, and they’re behind that – but to be making 7000 cars a week at this point in their life is quite an achievement.

    “It’s very hard to go up against the motor industry and the oil industry with a new car company in the United States and to get through an economic recession at the same time – and to convert people to this idea that electric cars can be better than petrol
    McKenzie is convinced the shift to electric is coming.

    “Ten years might be a little bit optimistic but I would not be surprised if half of the cars on the road in 10 years time were electric.

    “If you look back to the era of the motor vehicle surpassing horse and buggies – from 1910 to 1921, that’s the time it took for horse and buggies to disappear from the streets in America – the space of 11 years.
    Meanwhile, China is investing massively in what it’s calling ‘new energy’ vehicles, with a series of new electric vehicle companies like BYD starting up.

    “What’s happening in China is really encouraging and the government there is extremely supportive of transitioning. All that production will inevitably lead to greater supply and – along with the improvement of battery technology and recycling – is bound to drop the price of electric cars dramatically.

    “Battery prices are dropping rapidly, they’ve dropped 80 percent in the last six years.

    “In Tesla’s case they’ve got partnerships for recycling them and they’re going to do a lot of recycling at the Gigafactory which is this massive factory they’re building in the desert in Nevada.

    “They want to build another dozen of these around the world. It’s so big that they’ve only constructed a third of it so far and it takes about two hours just to walk around that one third.”

    “At the end of their life every part of the battery can be reused.

    “That is kind of like the secret missing ingredient to what could power a new energy economy: the wind doesn’t blow all the time and the sun doesn’t shine at night, so those sources are kind of inconstant – but you can make them constant if you have enough batteries storing energy ready to deploy whenever you want and put them everywhere around the world. The suppression of electric vehicles has also been sustained through lobbying and campaigns, he says.

    “Fossil fuel groups have been lobbying and campaigning and spreading disinformation about electric cars for a long time now – and continue to.

    “Most recently the Koch brothers – who are two of the richest people who have ever existed … last year they funded this campaign called ‘Fuelling US Forward’ which was supposed to espouse the benefits of glorious fossil fuels, but actually instead focused on taking down Elon Musk and taking down electric cars.”

    He says one of the things the company was trying to suggest was that electric cars are worse for the environment than petrol, which “is just not true”.

    “Even in the dirtiest coal grid situations electric cars are better for the environment when you account for the total production costs than even the most efficient gasoline vehicles … that’s out of a study from the Union of Concerned Scientists.
    McKenzie says although he’s a fan of electric, he’s not as excited about autonomy as some others. Ka kite ano P.S you see people Eco’s word about oil barons are the TRUTH links below.

  22. eco maori 26

    Kai ora Newshub That’s is a good breakthrough that the Australian scientist have found a new blood test that can detect cancer ka pai I seen that the scientist are new Australians some people don’t get it that immigrants can add a lot to a country talent trump .
    Lloyd there you go Eco Maori will say know more on the brexit .
    Its cool that the meningococcal vaccines are being administered in Northland ka pai.
    The 100 bilion fund is a very good start to our investments into dumping carbon .
    Thats a huge Christmas tree in Britain the mokospuna’s love Christmas.
    Andrew there are people who like to push people buttons that fan at the basketball in America new he would get under that player skin and —–him off Ka kite ano

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