(did anyone get excited over that widely reported study this week that concluded 'eat more meat! – no worries..!'
well..as it turns out – yeah – nah – eh…?..)
'A surprising new study challenged decades of nutrition advice and gave consumers the green light to eat more red and processed meat. But what the study didn’t say is that its lead author has past research ties to the meat and food industry.
The new report, published this week in the Annals of Internal Medicine, stunned scientists and public health officials because it contradicted longstanding nutrition guidelines about limiting consumption of red and processed meats. The analysis, led by Bradley C. Johnston, an epidemiologist at Dalhousie University in Canada, and more than a dozen researchers concluded that warnings linking meat consumption to heart disease and cancer are not backed by strong scientific evidence.
Several prominent nutrition scientists and health organizations criticized the study’s methods and findings. But Dr. Johnston and his colleagues defended the work, saying it relied on the highest standards of scientific evidence, and noted that the large team of investigators reported no conflicts of interest and conducted the review without outside funding.
Dr. Johnston also indicated on a disclosure form that he did not have any conflicts of interest to report during the past three years. But as recently as December 2016 he was the senior author on a similar study that tried to discredit international health guidelines advising people to eat less sugar. That study, which also appeared in the Annals of Internal Medicine, was paid for by the International Life Sciences Institute, or ILSI, an industry trade group largely supported by agribusiness, food and pharmaceutical companies and whose members have included McDonald’s, Coca-Cola, PepsiCo and Cargill, one of the largest beef processors in North America. The industry group, founded by a top Coca-Cola executive four decades ago, has long been accused by the World Health Organization and others of trying to undermine public health recommendations to advance the interests of its corporate members.'
But what the study didn’t say is that its lead author has past research ties to the meat and food industry.
Big whoop. It was obvious even without Johnston's study that the health scare-mongering about meat was based on weak correlations with disease. And even those weak correlations were probably achieved through extensive torturing of the results. Johnston's study just puts it in writing in a format that's harder for activists to dismiss.
Which is of course why they immediately go for ad hominem (and gosh, what a surprise that you would participate in an ad hominem attack, Phil). Bleating that a scientist "has ties to industry" isn't an argument.
Kevin McConway, emeritus professor of applied statistics at the Open University, called it an "extremely comprehensive piece of work"
And Prof David Spiegelhalter, from the University of Cambridge, said: "This rigorous, even ruthless, review does not find good evidence of important health benefits from reducing meat consumption "In fact, it does not find any good evidence at all."
the first post seemed new and relevant (critique of some recent research). It's when the debate drops into ranty assertions of opinion with no substance that I find the conversation tedious. We seem to have gotten there already.
The passive-aggressive behaviour of some I find tedious because you can see that they are digging in and will never dig out. They are wedded to their own opinion that has become an existential part of them and giving in, in an online discussion, is to them like a face transplant and simultaneous amputation of their dominant arm.
Recommendations from the Annals of Internal Medicine paper entitled: Unprocessed Red Meat and Processed Meat Consumption: Dietary Guideline Recommendations From the Nutritional Recommendations (NutriRECS) Consortium
"For adults 18 years of age or older, we suggest continuing current unprocessed red meat and processed meat consumption (weak recommendation, low-certainty evidence)."
The authors are clear that they considered only data relating to individual health outcomes to arrive at their recommendation(s)/guidelines(s).
"Our guideline also has limitations. We considered issues of animal welfare and potential environmental impact to be outside the scope of our recommendations. These guidelines may therefore be of limited relevance to individuals for whom these issues are of major importance. Related to this, we took an individual rather than a societal perspective. Decision makers considering broader environmental issues may reasonably consider evidence regarding the possible contribution of meat consumption to global warming and suggest policies limiting meat consumption on that basis."
As the global human population and anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions continue to increase, according to this paper BAU meat consumption is OK (recommended even), at least from an individual human health perspective. We meat eaters will clutch at this now, but consider how the 'scientific evidence worm' can turn (as illustrated @1.1.2.3).
It's interesting (to me) that the focus of the ‘rationale section’ is on the "recommendation to continue rather than reduce consumption of unprocessed red meat or processed meat". A less biased recommendation would be 'to continue rather than reduce change consumption'.
Wonder if the chosen wording might be linked to significant decreases in per capita meat consumption, e.g. between 2002 and 2009 a 25% decrease in NZ, and a whopping 35% decrease in Denmark. Presumably these decreases resulted in a contraction of local markets for meat farmers and processors.
NZers (still) eat a lot of meat. Current average meat consumption could probably drop by at least 50% without compromising nutritional benefits, if the health of NZ vegetarians and vegans (not to mention Great Thunberg) is anything to go by. The paper accurately describes a major positive reason for BAU meat consumption: "In short, omnivores enjoy eating meat…" – simple!
this scientist you place such credence in – was pimping sugar in 2016…
did you read about his funders..?
but still ok with all that..?
and the evidence of possible negative health outcomes from flesh and bye-product consumption is getting stronger by the day..
and doesn't the fact his pro-meat bullshit is such an outlier to the general medical consensus on meat/dairy consumption..that less is best and preferably none..
If we take "nonsense" to mean "a meaningless jumble of words", it seems to me that a vocabulary of 8,000 words would give 8000^6 discrete six-word phrases.
Odds are, therefore, that nonsense is likely to be more original than anything meaningful.
I did! It includes this piece of information that's relevant to your ad-hominem-based critique:
Dr. Laine [editor of the journal that published Johnston's study] noted that people on both sides of the meat issue have conflicts of interest. “Many of the people who are criticizing these articles have lots of conflicts of interest they aren’t talking about,” she said. “They do workshops on plant-based diets, do retreats on wellness and write books on plant-based diets. There are conflicts on both sides.”
and doesn't the fact his pro-meat bullshit is such an outlier to the general medical consensus on meat/dairy consumption..that less is best and preferably none..
Nope. That consensus is based on bullshit social science (ie correlation = causation errors supported by confirmation bias), which is pretty much what his study shows. It would help if medical practitioners stopped trying to build "general consensus" based on weak correlations.
Your comment demonstrates the same problem that Morrissey's do: instead of considering the information provided, you consider the ideological merits of the person providing it, with "merit" effectively determined by whether you agree with them or not. That said:
If you really must argue from authority, then yes, the editor of the Annals of Internal Medicine is way more of an authority on this subject than you are.
Her point isn't "others do it too," her point is that many of the people publishing in this area have conflicts of interest, that the conflicts aren't only on the industry side and that conflicts on the anti-meat-activist side generally aren't declared by those with the conflicts. It's not a very relevant point to the merits or otherwise of nutritional studies, but it's a highly relevant point in the context of your ad-hominem-based opposition to Johnston's study.
wot..?..are those who have done the research to reach the general consensus..(y'know..!..bacon/cured meats carcinogenic..?..do you doubt that one too..?..)
are these scientists/researchers secretly funded by the carrot industry..or something..?
i'd be fascinated to hear yr guesses as to who may be secretly funding all these anti-meat conclusions..?
is there some world-wide vegan conspiracy you have to alert us too..?
First, a reminder that this sub-thread isn't discussing the merits of Johnston's study, it's discussing the merits of your ad-hominem critique (wouldn't want anyone to think I was accepting that ad hominem is an acceptable argument against Johnston's study).
i mean..are you fucken listening to yrslf..?
Oh, the irony. Your argument against Johnston is that he has a conflict of interest, in that his research has been partly funded by industry. You present this as a compelling reason to disregard his research.
However, when it's pointed out to you that many of his critics have conflicts of interest, in that they're vegan or vegetarian activists, you present that not as a compelling reason to disregard their criticisms, but as a wildly irrational conspiracy theory that only flat-earthers or similar could entertain.
"Are you fucken listening to yrslf?" Good question, how would you answer it?
"and doesn't the fact his pro-meat bullshit is such an outlier to the general medical consensus on meat/dairy consumption..that less is best and preferably none.."
Science journalist Gary Taubes wrote this article in 2002. His book was published in 2007 and present, in depth, from the the 1800s to the 2000s, the science done on cholesterol and how that was co-opted and misused to distort public health messages. Including large interference from plant food industries.
If you go and read that Time article Weka you will see it is BS.
No where did the study say to eat butter, it was more along the lines of "butter is no worse, or only slightly worse for you, than margarine".
You should do a bit more research on it and how the dairy industry used that article and a fabricated shortage of butter to boost butter prices in the lead to Christmas 2016.
And Fonterra's response was to increase butter production to show it was doing something, which turned out a total failure, because when you make butter you end up with skim milk powder which was collapsing at the same time, as Europe already had stockpiles it could not sell.
So Fonterra ended up with no additional profit but a shed load of capital expenditure it never needed. Part of the reason it is in the shit. Misleading science and media reporting of that science.
This is why you have to beware of industry led research.
So while your arguments about Phil's ad hominem may be technically correct, any scientist will be sceptical of vested interests publishing research and to not do so is just plain silly and ignores repeated patterns of behaviour which shows such research is crap.
sorry, which research is crap? If you look at the Gary Taubes reference, you can see a science journalist who examines the fat hypothesis for over a century and finds that it too is based on vested interests and bad science.
On top of that, even the mainstream peer reviewed medical journals have been writing about the corruption of the peer review process, and doing so for a long time now. The numbers of medical studies that are flawed or bought is alarmingly high. When I've commented about this in places like TS in the past, I've been met with pro-science people saying oh but science isn't to blame, it's value free, or science is still better than nothing, or it's ok for medical science to make mistakes because the damage is outweighed by the benefits.
I'm sceptical of *everything, because it's not just industry capture, it's the bollocks that scientists and pro-science public have also allowed to happen and continue.
I still haven't seen who funded the study released this week. If you know I'd be interested. As I've said elsewhere in the thread, I find the research interesting but I'm not yet convinced of its value.
Re the Time covers, I was just looking for a quick, obvious way to point out the shortcomings of claiming that the mainstream scientific position on certain foods is meaningful, because later science changes its mind. 'Outlier' scientists have been criticising the fat hypothesis for almost as long as it has existed. They're outliers because of culture, not because their science is bad.
As for Fonterra, they're up there with tobacco companies and Monsanto for greedy fucks who destroy things so they can make money. If they were stupid enough to base their business plan on that Time cover and vested interest manipulation, that's on them. NZ has long had the opportunity to invest in regenerative farming systems and still is not doing it, so I have waning sympathy for the people getting caught up in Fonterra's misfortune despite being generally supportive of farming as a critical aspect of human societies. Fonterra is all about making money and sfa to do with growing food or making a decent living.
You said "No where did the study say to eat butter, it was more along the lines of "butter is no worse, or only slightly worse for you, than margarine"."
Can you please tell me which study you are referring to?
afaik Time didn't use a single study as a reference, so I was a bit confused by what you meant. Hard to know how the Time article is bullshit if you won't say. What others did after that is a different matter (but interesting as well, and I agree there are vested interests, I just think they're on all sides including the anti-fat one).
Fwiw, the message to eat butter can easily be read as if you want to eat butter instead of margarine then do so. Kind of like what's happening with the meat research this week.
How old are the ties? I'm thinking they should have been declared and then there'd be no drama.
That said, if we put a spotlight on nutritional research where prior, or even current vested interests meant exclusion, many studies would have to be excluded (including pro-vegan ones) 😉
What I'd like to see is some decent critique of the study itself.
the funding group cited in the article i linked to…who funded this study..
the lead researchers' financiers..
'The industry group, founded by a top Coca-Cola executive four decades ago, has long been accused by the World Health Organization and others of trying to undermine public health recommendations to advance the interests of its corporate members.'
(hope that clarifies that..)
and is that professot of nutrition from ak uni i cited as piring contempt on this bullshit credible enough for you..?
Sometimes you are hard to understand phil, so let me summarise this sub thread:
a study was published (multiple authors, multiple papers)
there's critique of undeclared conflicts of interest ('ties to industry')
the lead author may have ties in the past
the study may have been funded by industry
I asked how old the ties between the lead author and the industry are. I don't think that's been answered yet.
You said that the study was funded by industry, but your link and quote is talking about a previous study (on sugar consumption?) that the lead author was involved in, that was funded by an industry group.
So we know from that that the lead author's previous work in 2016 was connected to the sugar industry. Apples and oranges there phil?
My response to that is that it's relevant, but only in the context of understanding that the anti-fat health science of the last 50 years has similar connections to industry. Vegan research has similar ties.
This doesn't help us assess the value of the study published this week.
From the Dal uni website page Behind the beef a comment says it's funded by
The review was funded by International Life Sciences, a scientific group backed by companies with a vested interest in the review's results, including Coca-Cola, General Mills, Hershey's, Kellogg's, Kraft Foods and Monsanto.
But another comment to the piece rightly states
What does animal welfare have to do with the the raw data… the raw data like it or not says that there is no or limited risk…. The social engineers would have you believe you will drop dead of cancer because you killed an animal.
The research also sparked fierce criticism from organizations like the the American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society and the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, with the latter suggesting it could “cause harm to human health and erode public confidence in nutrition science.”
No shit. This is precisely why it's still not being talked about, fear that when people find out the truth they will stop trusting the people who've been giving them such bad advice.
Thing is it's not like bad pro smoking or anti climate change science, bought and paid for with corporate cash, it's analysis of raw data from several studies.
But no surprise to see push back from those advancing what could now be the wrong message for years.
I was meaning that there has been corporate capture in nutrition science, and when people find out that the fat is bad hypothesis is so wrong I think it's reasonable to be critical of the science and the institutions involved. Public confidence is a critical issue here.
Not sure about the raw data argument. All data has to be processed through human brains and thus gets layers of interpretation and bias naturally. For me it's more about being able to examine those biases and be honest about them. Kind of like politics.
Most people don't have the scientific literacy to either work directly with raw data, or critique published studies that do. Most rely on their GP, and public health messaging and the MSM. It's a huge issue, and many pro-science people have been strong on not talking about it.
This study looks interesting to me, but I still haven't seen a clear set of analyses that convince me who I should believe. That's an indictment of science culture as a whole, and it sucks that we should all be in this position of having to choose which facts we believe.
The study was published only on Oct 1, so it will take a little while for meaningful critiques/analyses to come out, and much longer for peer-reviewed, published articles.
But in a way we don't need these. Look at the "Recommendations" section in the abstract and the recommendations are categorized as "weak" based on "low-certainty evidence" (link to study at the bottom of this post).
Then look at the "Evidence Summary for Harms and Benefits of Unprocessed Red Meat Consumption" and "Evidence Summary for Harms and Benefits for Processed Meat" sections. The evidence for reducing consumption is categorized as low or very low certainty.
Finally, read the "Rationale for Recommendations for Red Meat and Processed Meat" section.
From my reading, the authors are opting for the status quo because the evidence is not good enough to confidently decide either way.
'u said..'This is precisely why it's still not being talked about, fear that when people find out the truth they will stop trusting the people who've been giving them such bad advice.'
wow..!..that is how you read all those takedowns of this bullshit..?
as a big conspiracy by them..?
not as a warning about lies being peddled that have health inplications for those believing it..?
tl;dr The effects of any particular dietary change (if there even are any) are sufficiently small and the accuracy of measurements and data collection is so poor that it's hard to get any meaningful results. Someone's diet has to be pathologically extreme, or that person has a specific health condition relating to specific foods, before there are likely to be significant health consequences from removing or adding specific foods to even a moderately balanced and varied diet.
There's pretty clear evidence that shifting whole people's off their traditional diets onto high carb diets correlates with high levels of chronic disease very quickly. There's also reasonably good work showing causative factors.
I see a *lot of people reporting ill health from vegan diets. Maybe that proves your point (being vegan is extreme), but it does just remove specific foods.
I also think that telling people to avoid eating animal fats is extreme, but that's the mainstream advice and I'm not sure what your point is. That people should eat what they want?
My point is that if your diet includes portions from all food groups (ie, at least moderately balanced, if not well-balanced), then from a personal health perspective there's unlikely to be big benefits from any big changes such as eliminating red meat. Or eliminating animal fats.
Vegan diets are not even moderately balanced, there's entire food groups missing. That makes vegan an extreme diet. So while it is possible to be healthy on a vegan diet, it takes a lot of knowledge and care to ensure it includes a full set of nutrients. There are a significant number of vegans that don't and thereby suffer ill-health as a result.
Similarly, excessive refined carbs falls into the category of extreme diets with other foods massively under-represented.
Then when it comes to specific ethnic groups that have had generations to evolve around specific diets, that's a whole 'nother conundrum. For instance, the Maasai diet is mostly milk, blood and meat, and it apparently works for them. Switch a Maasai onto a diet that's well-balanced for a european, and I'd expect it would have adverse effects for the Maasai.
Excessive refined carb diets is also known as the standard American diet (SAD). NZ does better because I think we still eat less refined, and industrialised foods, but relative to human history our diets are still very high carb. This is one of the consequences of the low fat messaging, people just ate more carbs. It's not quite as straight forward as this but what happened next was a spike in heart disease and diabetes.
So when we talk about extreme diets, that's most people in the West.
yes, in part because Māori and Pasifika peoples have been shifted off traditional diets onto high carb ones thanks to anti-animal fat messaging (amongst other factors eg colonisation). Pākehā are having similar problems.
Obesity isn't the problem (it's not an illness). Diabetes and heart disease are, and there are clear correlations between them and high carb diets.
My point was more that NZ can probably shift to a less extreme diet more easily than the US who now seem to eat a very extreme diet with many people not knowing what good food even is. Whatever its limitations, NZ's traditional meat and three veg dinners now look positively healthy by comparison (and probably really are).
Nick is an awesome person, he really is, I've run into him a few times, he's a great guy who wants to see more tiny houses in our district. What has happened to him is crazy and will put so many people off getting a tiny house and that in itself blows, big time.
They left the wheels behind it's as simple as that, but the TDC are being absolute arseholes about it. In Motueka there are currently 30 families on the waiting list for housing, we need more small houses not roadblocks. Meanwhile ALL OVER our district are house trucks, buses etc that haven't moved for years, probably aren't even capable of moving now, but no one goes after them.
Hi Cinny, it is so frustrating to watch. An ideas, creative person, comes up with a fantastic product/service then gets stymied by bureaucracy.
Both parties need an interface. By that I mean the creative (heart) party needs a head type person to deal with the council. The council needs creative types to accept proposals and find a way or compromise to assist their public.
The risk averseness of councils can go over the top.
Edit, I am getting my wires crossed with another story about a chappie who is having council issues at the production end of the chain.
Taking the wheels off seems indicative of intention for it not to be mobile. A caravan would only have that done if it was not road worthy or was being repaired. Who would transport a caravan on the back of a truck when it can easily be towed?
It's also not a caravan if it's 3.1m wide. The legal width for vehicles is 2.5m. If you want to move something on the road wider than that you have to get a permit.
I agree councils need to change given the housing crisis (and TDC are probably being stupid here), but I'd think there are reasons why tiny home people are getting into these difficulties when housebus people aren't (and let's hope TDC doesn't start going after the buses). I'm also wondering what the tiny home builders are saying to clients, because it looks like this man was given bad advice.
I'm all for innovation, but they really do look like an attempt to dodge building regulation – and we all know where that ends up. Only instead of leaky buildings, in the case we end up with a trailer park full of uninsulated, untransportable (because the chassis rusted) slum homes.
It looks to me like people trying to skirt building regs with those oversized ones. Otherwise build an actual caravan and live in that. You can make it look like a house if you want, but it still needs to be something that would transport easily on the road. Definitely a buyer beware situation for resales. Ideally people building should be keeping records of what materials they used, and how they were constructed. But people buying caravans don't have the protections of building regs, so I think it's ok to build tiny homes with the same expectations. More honesty about all this would help.
I would expect ones built by companies where you can see who the owner/manager/builders are will be sound. I also think there are plenty of owner builders, or housebuilders who can now build them competently. But there's already ripoffs happening from crooks taking people's money and then not completing building. And there will be a certain % of bad builds too. People are desperate for housing, and many seem naive going in (hence we have building regs for housing).
Could be someone who wants to keep the area rural and underdeveloped (either for value or just they like the view). The sort to object to any housing consent, at all.
Nick Kiddle started off as single issue candidate opposing the visitor levy, he's a motelier, but has picked up a lot of support from hospitality cost accountants, and people who are called street pavers in our household. They come here thinking the streets are paved with gold and set up, then bumble along. About 5 or 6 years later they discover the streets really are paved with gold, just that it was their gold. At present this is a sizeable subset of the Queenstown Lakes population and may include Mr Kiddle.
My pick is Boult for Mayor, but close and a council favouring controlled growth.
Over the hill in Wanaka it's Airport Airport Airport, and will be interesting how that comes out. Wanaka is a very seperate race to ours in Whakatipu, but issues and motivations are the same, just we are several cycles ahead of Wanaka.
Central Otago looks like Tim Cadogan by heaps, interesting guy and doing a good job. Big issue is about where and how Cromwell expands. They built a Motorsport Park on the southern edge of town which is where the town should be expanding. Lots of arguments around reverse sensitivity and huge population growth and demand making fiery race for Council and Community Board.
(this is a good read – how portugal solved their heroin overdose epidemic..)
'In 2001, Portugal was experiencing an opioid-involved overdose crisis, similar to the one gripping the United States. The country used criminalization and incarceration to try to manage drug use, while HIV rates among people who use drugs were the highest in Europe.
In response to this emergency, Portugal launched its decriminalization program that year, and the rest is history. Overdose deaths have plummeted by 80 percent, while the percentage of drug users diagnosed with new HIV infections fell from 52 percent in 2000 to 7 percent in 2015. Rates of problematic drug use and drug-related incarceration have also fallen, while numbers of people voluntarily entering treatment for substance use issues have increased.'
Very interesting. A triumph for practical and kindly legal action, instead of moralising, punishing societal controls encouraging corruption of the pocket and the soul, of both offenders and those dealing with them.
Why dont you say it Phil "decriminalization program"
Its wasnt a legalisation at all. So Sad .
Instead:
“If police find you with illicit drugs, you’ll be arrested and taken to a police station where the drugs will be weighed. If the amount is above the strictly enforced threshold limits — designed to be a 10-day supply for personal use, or 25 grams of cannabis, five grams of cannabis resin, two grams of cocaine, or one gram each of ecstasy or heroin — you can be charged as a trafficker. If convicted, jail terms range from one year to 14 years.
if you arent an addict – just recreational ! then ignore harm reduction at your peril
Indigenous people targeted for doing what we should all be doing.
Nearly three years after two women began allegedly plotting to disrupt the Dakota Access Pipeline, the Department of Justice (DOJ) is charging them with several federal crimes that could land them behind bars for 110 years
[…]
Now, Reznicek and Montoya face up to 110 years in prison for these alleged crimes. If convicted, they would be the latest to go to jail for protesting the pipeline. All of the other individuals have been incarcerated are indigenous, Carl Williams, the executive director of the Water Protector Legal Collective, which is representing them in court, told Earther. There were 761 arrests made during the protests, but only five individuals have served time. Some are still in prison, but others are out on parole and, as Williams put it, “still under the control of the federal government.”
Aww. c'mon. Dr. Evil Dick Cheney was the manipulative power behind the throne Veep after multiple heart attacks. Surely the Bern can match that.
But seriously, several people close to me have had stents put in. Afterwards, the changes I was most concerned about were not so much physical as cognitive changes, probably due to the medications they went on. For all of them, it took years of adjusting the doses of statins, beta-blockers etc to find a combo of specific brands and doses to get them back to upstairs functioning similar to pre-heart attack.
The VP job is nothing like the responsibility of being President.
Yeah. 98% of the job description is just continuing to have a heartbeat in case the president suddenly doesn't. So having already had three heart attacks by the time he was chosen wouldn't have seemed the ideal qualification. But hey, I'm no HR expert, what would I know?
It looks more and more like the end of Bernie Sanders for 2020. Even if he make a remarkable return to full health and decides to continue, I suspect the damage will be fatal for his nomination hopes. It's all very well to aim to be over 80 at the end of your term as president, but after a health scare like this, it'll be hard to win over more than the hardened Bernistas.
At least a lot of his policies are compatible with Warren’s, so those looking forward will have a ready made home for their votes.
Elizabeth Warren represents a new politics in which by challenging the power of the oligarchy she has the potential of reclaiming the white working class for Democrats and uniting them with the coalition of professionals single women gays and minorities who elected Obama
Elizabeth Warren raised $24.6m over the past three months, relying largely on a massive small donor operation to solidify her status as a leading contender for the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination.
And of course, for some reason only die hard republicans are pushing, you agree how the potus asking a foreign government for dirt on a potential opponent isn't a bad thing at all.
Had to do a couple of trips to Auckland airport and back to Hamilton last week, and boring drive aside, with some regular running to work and back and around town included, I managed to eek out 43mpg from 49lt after 742km travelled.
I don't love inanimate objects, but I do have a serious crush on my just shy of 30 years old MX-5.
Equals 42mpg. Not bad for a 30 yr old car considering my golf7 does 5.8 l / 100km or 48mpg. Mind you that’s mainly urban stop start driving and not trying too hard 😉
460 of those km were motorway, the rest urban, so not bad at all. I've got higher just from long runs only, but like you say below, light car with judicious use of the throttle gets you that sometimes.
Covering the bases for those kids who first went to school the year the decimal system came in subsequently use cm on rulers but envisage feet for distance. lol
There's a lot of older small cars that are surprisingly economical, mainly because they are so much lighter than modern cars since they aren't carrying around all the safety stuff a 2019 car has. So 5 – 7L / 100km isn't hard to achieve in the right 80's or 90's car.
The idea of blanket age bans, like Japan, on efficiency grounds could throw a few babies out with the bath water. Japan's 5 year regime is more about supporting their manufacturers so not relevant here but an incentive to get rid of guzzlers has merit.
Our commuter, 50km into Queenstown and back, 7 days, is a 1986 Honda City. Consistent 5l / 100km with 300,000 km under it's belt and original mechanicals. I run a 1971 Landrover for my fencing work which makes up for the City, I don't bother counting how much fuel that consumes, but overall running costs (repairs, depreciation, insurance and fuel) are considerably less than the modern 4×4 utes the farm manager drives around in and it's as reliable. Repairs on his J rego Navara were horrific.
If we wanted to do right by nature, what we could have done is audited the NZ car fleet, looked at which cars were worth keeping on the road, promoted less car driving alongside major investment in alt transport (public, walking, biking), and brought in EVs as needed but with regards for the GHGs created in their manufacture.
Trying to replace the whole fleet with EVs and BAU usage is the same daftness as demolishing good but older housing instead of retrofitting, and then building theoretically more energy efficient houses but ones that are larger (thus use more power) and have significant embodied energy and GHGs in their build. We really are still at the stupid end of this stuff.
My reasoning for running the fleet we do is that once the shit hits the fan those decisions are going to be made for us, and humanity isn't going have any redress. Up to that point there are so many uncertainties about how it will pan out that any decision could be totally wrong.
We probably not much different to the very early transition from horse to motorcar, when there were lots of different technologies, battery electric, steam and countless ice ideas floating around, but it wasn't until a quite basic, but reliable concept and manufacturing breakthrough of the assembly line came together with the Ford Model T, that the horse went out to pasture. We're probably at about 1903 when the best thing was the steam car, and cities were having to deal with mountains of horse shit
We still have to stay alive in the current world and have an eye for how the world is going to change into the future, but as that world changes so do our options which may be what we see now, or may be something totally different depending on what technological opportunities or climatic realities emerge.
Getting rid of the worst emitters and substituting with a lower emitter, if there's a viable substitution, is a no brainer. Gross technology changes by could be fraught if we make the wrong choices.
Any decision to power down won't be made by us, consensus won't happen until the decision is made for us by nature. Unfortunately humans aren't wired like that.
Hmmm my 2007 Prius does around 4.5 l/100 K over a similar route Thames to Auckland return. On a long run – down to Wellington with 4 persons it did around 4.2 l / 100 K. Around town I can drive to the shops and half way back on EV before the motor kicks in as the return journey is up hill.
Obviously "not a big issue" ….. until it suddenly is.
The demonstration of competing egos and cleverness – (above) – is obviously far more important.
QI this site eh? It could be used as a case study in MDIA and SOSC 101 studies.
I sometimes think that whilst the Tory comes with an inherent expectation of being deserving, these days the Left (as it has evolved and stands today) deserves itself
I thought I stayed awake through the completely fawning coverage of our national sport on TV1 6pm news last night and and tonight. I did not see one reference to this matter (correct outcome or not). For the so-called main news channel in New Zealand, this is pathetic and the reverence accorded to rugby is way over the top.
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
TL;DR: In today’s ‘six-stack’ of substacks at 6.06pm on Tuesday, March 19:Kāinga Ora’s dry rot The Spinoff DailyBill McKibben on ‘Climate Superfunds’ making Big Oil pay for climate damage The Crucial YearsPreston Mui on returning to 1980s-style productivity growth NoahpinionAndy Boenau on NIMBYs needing unusual bedfellows Urbanism SpeakeasyNed Resnikoff's case ...
Negative yesterday, negative today. Negative all year, according to one departing reader telling me I’ve grown strident and predictable. Fair enough. If it’s any help, every time I go to write about a certain topic that begins with C and ends with arrrrs, I do brace myself and ask: Again? Are ...
Bryce Edwards writes – It’s been a tumultuous time in politics in recent months, as the new National-led Government has driven through its “First 100 Day programme”. During this period there’s been a handful of opinion polls, which overall just show a minimal amount of flux in public support ...
Inspirational: The Family of Man is a glorious hymn to human equality, but, more than that, it is a clarion call to human freedom. Because equality, unleavened by liberty, is a broken piano, an unstrung harp; upon which the songs of fraternity will never be played.“Somebody must have been telling lies about ...
Tax Lawyer Barbara Edmonds vs Emperor Justinian I- Nolo Contendere: False historical explanations of pivotal events are very far from being inconsequential.WHEN BARBARA EDMONDS made reference to the Roman Empire, my ears pricked up. It is, lamentably, very rare to hear a politician admit to any kind of familiarity ...
It’s been a tumultuous time in politics in recent months, as the new National-led Government has driven through its “First 100 Day programme”. During this period there’s been a handful of opinion polls, which overall just show a minimal amount of flux in public support for the various parties in ...
Buzz from the Beehive Housing Minister Chris Bishop delivered news – packed with the ingredients to enflame political passions – worthy of supplanting Winston Peters in headline writers’ priorities. He popped up at the post-Cabinet press conference to promise a crackdown on unruly and antisocial state housing tenants. His ...
Ele Ludemann writes – The Reserve Bank is advertising for a Diversity, Equity and Inclusion advisor. The Bank has one mandate – to keep inflation between one and three percent. It has failed in that and is only slowly getting inflation back down to the upper limit. Will it ...
Last week former National Party leader Simon Bridges was appointed by the Government as the new chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA). You can read about the appointment in Thomas Coughlan’s article, Simon Bridges to become chair of NZ Transport Agency Waka KotahiThe fact that a ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Last week former National Party leader Simon Bridges was appointed by the Government as the new chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency Waka Kotahi (NZTA). You can read about the appointment in Thomas Coughlan’s article, Simon Bridges to become chair of NZ Transport Agency ...
TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read: Gavin Jacobson talks to Thomas Piketty 10 years on from Capital in the 21st CenturyThe SalvoLocal scoop: Green MP’s business being investigated over migrant exploitation claims StuffSteve KilgallonLocal deep-dive: The commercial contractors making money from School ...
It’s a home - but Kāinga Ora tenants accused of “abusing the privilege” may lose it. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The Government announced a crackdown on Kāinga Ora tenants who were unruly and/or behind on their rent, with Housing Minister Chris Bishop saying a place in a state ...
This is a guest post by Connor Sharp of Surface Light Rail Light rail in Auckland: A way forward sooner than you think With the coup de grâce of Auckland Light Rail (ALR) earlier this year, and the shift of the government’s priorities to roads, roads, and more roads, it ...
Note: As a paid-up Webworm member, I’ve recorded this Webworm as a mini-podcast for you as well. Some of you said you liked this option - so I aim to provide it when I get a chance to record! Read more ...
TL;DR: In my ‘six-stack’ of substacks at 6.06pm on Monday, March 18:IKEA is accused of planting big forests in New Zealand to green-wash; REDD-MonitorA City for People takes a well-deserved victory lap over Wellington’s pro-YIMBY District Plan votes; A City for PeopleSteven Anastasiou takes a close look at the sticky ...
Buzz from the Beehive Here’s hoping for a lively post-cabinet press conference when the PM and – perhaps – some of his ministers tell us what was discussed at their meeting today. Until then, Point of Order has precious little Beehive news to report after its latest monitoring of the ...
David Farrar writes – We now have almost all 2023 data in, which has allowed me to update my annual table of how labour went against its promises. This is basically their final report card. The promiseThe result Build 100,000 affordable homes over 10 ...
I’m a bit worried that I’ve started a previous newsletter with the words “just when you think they couldn’t get any worse…” Seems lately that I could begin pretty much every issue with that opening. Such is the nature of our coalition government that they seem to be outdoing each ...
Geoffrey Miller writes – Timing is everything. And from China’s perspective, this week’s visit by its foreign minister to New Zealand could be coming at just the right moment. The visit by Wang Yi to Wellington will be his first since 2017. Anniversaries are important to Beijing. ...
Depictions of Islam in Western popular culture have rarely been positive, even before 9/11. Five years on from the mosque shootings, this is one of the cultural headwinds that the Muslim community has to battle against. Whatever messages of tolerance and inclusion are offered in daylight, much of our culture ...
Last week Transport Minster Simeon Brown and Mayor Wayne Brown opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre. The new train control centre will see teams from KiwiRail, Auckland Transport and Auckland One Rail working more closely together to improve train services across the city. The Auckland Rail Operations Centre in ...
Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Retiring former Labour Finance Minister Grant Robertson said in an exit interview with Q+A yesterday the Government can and should sustain more debt to invest in infrastructure for future generations. Elsewhere in the news in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy at 6:36am: Read more ...
Timing is everything. And from China’s perspective, this week’s visit by its foreign minister to New Zealand could be coming at just the right moment. The visit by Wang Yi to Wellington will be his first since 2017. Anniversaries are important to Beijing. It is more than just a happy ...
TL;DR: The key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to March 18 include:China’s Foreign Minister visiting Wellington today;A post-cabinet news conference this afternoon; the resumption of Parliament on Tuesday for two weeks before Easter;retiring former Labour Finance Minister Grant Robertson gives his valedictory speech in Parliament; ...
New Zealand First Leader Winston Peters’s state-of-the-nation speech on Sunday was really a state-of-Winston-First speech. He barely mentioned any of the Government’s key policies and could not even wholly endorse its signature income tax cuts. Instead, he rehearsed all of his complaints about the Ardern Government, including an extraordinary claim ...
A listing of 35 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, March 10, 2024 thru Sat, March 16, 2024. Story of the week This week we'll give you a little glimpse into how we collect links to share and ...
A listing of 35 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, March 10, 2024 thru Sat, March 16, 2024. Story of the week This week we'll give you a little glimpse into how we collect links to share and ...
“I’ve been internalising a really complicated situation in my head.”When they kept telling us we should wait until we get to know him, were they taking the piss? Was it a case of, if you think this is bad, wait till you get to know the real Christopher, after the ...
Happy fourth anniversary, Pandemic That Upended Bloody Everything. I have been observing it by enjoying my second bout of COVID. It’s 5.30 on Sunday morning and only now are lights turning back on for me.Allow me to copy and paste what I told reader Sara yesterday:Depleted, fogged and crappy. Resting, ...
Happy fourth anniversary, Pandemic That Upended Bloody Everything. I have been observing it by enjoying my second bout of COVID. It’s 5.30 on Sunday morning and only now are lights turning back on for me.Allow me to copy and paste what I told reader Sara yesterday:Depleted, fogged and crappy. Resting, ...
Happy fourth anniversary, Pandemic That Upended Bloody Everything. I have been observing it by enjoying my second bout of COVID. It’s 5.30 on Sunday morning and only now are lights turning back on for me.Allow me to copy and paste what I told reader Sara yesterday:Depleted, fogged and crappy. Resting, ...
.“$10 and a target that bleeds” - Bleeding Targets for Under $10!.Thanks for reading Frankly Speaking ! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.This government appears hell-bent on either scrapping life-saving legislation or reintroducing things that - frustrated critics insist - will be dangerous and likely ...
“It hardly strikes me as fair to criticise a government for doing exactly what it said it was going to do. For actually keeping its promises.”THUNDER WAS PLAYING TAG with lightning flashes amongst the distant peaks. Its rolling cadences interrupted by the here-I-come-here-I-go Doppler effect of the occasional passing car. ...
Subversive & Disruptive Technologies: Just as happened with that other great regulator of the masses, the Medieval Church, the advent of a new and hard-to-control technology – the Internet – is weakening the ties that bind. Then, and now, those who enjoy a monopoly on the dissemination of lies, cannot and will ...
Been Here Before: To find the precedents for what this Coalition Government is proposing, it is necessary to return to the “glory days” of Muldoonism.THE COALITION GOVERNMENT has celebrated its first 100 days in office by checking-off the last of its listed commitments. It remains, however, an angry government. It ...
Bob Edlin writes – And what is the world watching today…? The email newsletter from Associated Press which landed in our mailbox early this morning advised: In the news today: The father of a school shooter has been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter; prosecutors in Trump’s hush-money case ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Is another Green MP on their way out? And are the Greens severely tarnished by another integrity scandal? For the second time in three months, the Green Party has secretly suspended an MP over integrity issues. Mystery is surrounding the party’s decision to ...
For the last few years, the Green Party has been the party that has managed to avoid the plague of multiple scandals that have beleaguered other political parties. It appears that their luck has run out with a second scandal which, unfortunately for them, coincided with Golraz Ghahraman, the focus ...
TL;DR: The six newsey things that stood out to me as of 6:46am on Saturday, March 16.Andy Foster has accidentally allowed a Labour/Green amendment to cut road user chargers for plug-in hybrid vehicles, which the Government might accept; NZ HeraldThomas CoughlanSimeon Brown has rejected a plea from Westport ...
What seemed a booming success a couple of years ago has collapsed into fraud convictions.I looked at the crash of FTX (short for ‘Futures Exchange’) in November 2022 to see whether it would impact on the financial system as a whole. Fortunately there was barely a ripple, probably because it ...
Anybody following the situation in Ukraine and Russia would probably have been amused by a recent Tweet on X NATO seems to be putting in an awful lot of effort to influence what is, at least according to them, a sham election in an autocracy.When do the Ukrainians go to ...
TL;DR:Shaun Baker on Wynyard Quarter's transformation. Magdalene Taylor on the problem with smart phones. How private equity are now all over reinsurance. Dylan Cleaver on rugby and CTE. Emily Atkin on ‘Big Meat’ looking like ‘Big Oil’.Bernard’s six-stack of substacks at 6pm on March 15Photo by Jeppe Hove Jensen ...
Buzz from the Beehive Finance Minister Nicola Willis had plenty to say when addressing the Auckland Business Chamber on the economic growth that (she tells us) is flagging more than we thought. But the government intends to put new life into it: We want our country to be a ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee has reported back on the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill, basicly rubberstamping it. While there was widespread support among submitters for the principle that EV and PHEV drivers should pay their fair share for the roads, they also overwhelmingly disagreed with ...
Peter Dunne writes – This week’s government bailout – the fifth in the last eighteen months – of the financially troubled Ruapehu Alpine Lifts company would have pleased many in the central North Island ski industry. The government’s stated rationale for the $7 million funding was that it ...
See if you can spot the difference. An Iranian born female MP from a progressive party is accused of serial shoplifting. Her name is leaked to the media, which goes into a pack frenzy even before the Police launch an … Continue reading → ...
Ele Ludemann writes – The government is omitting general Treaty references from legislation : The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last Government in a bid to get greater coherence in the public service on Treaty ...
What was that judge thinking?Peter Williams writes – That Golriz Ghahraman and District Court Judge Maria Pecotic were once lawyer colleagues is incontrovertible. There is published evidence that they took at least one case to the Court of Appeal together. There was a report on ...
TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read:Climate Scorpion – the sting is in the tail. Introducing planetary solvency. A paper via the University of Exeter’s Institute and Faculty of Actuaries.Local scoop:Kāinga Ora starts pulling out of its Auckland projects and selling land RNZ ...
Wellington’s massively upzoned District Plan adds the opportunity for tens of thousands of new homes not just in the central city (such as these Webb St new builds) but also close to the CBD and public transport links. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Wellington gave itself the chance of ...
It’s Friday and we’re halfway through March Madness. Here’s some of the things that caught our attention this week. This Week in Greater Auckland On Monday Matt asked how we can get better event trains and an option for grade separating Morningside Dr. On Tuesday Matt looked into ...
Something you might not know about me is that I’m quite a stubborn person. No, really. I don’t much care for criticism I think’s unfair or that I disagree with. Few of us do I suppose.Back when I was a drinker I’d sometimes respond defensively, even angrily. There are things ...
Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the last week included:PM Christopher Luxon said the reversal of interest deductibility for landlords was done to help renters, who ...
It was not so much the Labour Party but really the Chris Hipkins party yesterday at Labour’s caucus retreat in Martinborough. The former Prime Minister was more or less consistent on wealth tax, which he was at best equivocal about, and social insurance, which he was not willing to revisit. ...
Buzz from the BeehiveThe text reproduced above appears on a page which records all the media statements and speeches posted on the government’s official website by Melissa Lee as Minister of Media and Communications and/or by Jenny Marcroft, her Parliamentary Under-secretary. It can be quickly analysed ...
For forty years, Robert Muldoon has been a dirty word in our politics. His style of government was so repulsive and authoritarian that the backlash to it helped set and entrench our constitutional norms. His pig-headedness over forcing through Think Big eventually gave us the RMA, with its participation and ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Is the new government reducing tax on rental properties to benefit landlords or to cut the cost of rents? That’s the big question this week, after Associate Finance Minister David Seymour announced on Sunday that the Government would be reversing the Labour Government’s removal ...
Saudi Arabia is rarely far from the international spotlight. The war in Gaza has brought new scrutiny to Saudi plans to normalise relations with Israel, while the fifth anniversary of the controversial killing of Jamal Khashoggi was marked shortly before the war began on October 7. And as the home ...
Questions need to be asked on both sides of the worldPeter Williams writes – The NRL Judiciary hands down an eight week suspension to Sydney Roosters forward Spencer Leniu , an Auckland-born Samoan, after he calls Ezra Mam, Sydney-orn but of Aboriginal and Torres Strait ...
Ele Ludemann writes – Contrary to what many headlines and news stories are saying, residential landlords are not getting a tax break. The government is simply restoring to them the tax deductibility of interest they had until the previous government removed it. There is no logical reason ...
I can't remember when it was goodMoments of happiness in bloomMaybe I just misunderstoodAll of the love we left behindWatching our flashbacks intertwineMemories I will never findIn spite of whatever you becomeForget that reckless thing turned onI think our lives have just begunI think our lives have just begunDoes anyone ...
Michael Bassett writes – At first reading, a front-page story in the New Zealand Herald on 13 March was bizarre. A group of severely intellectually limited teenagers, with little understanding of the law, have been pleading to the Justice Select Committee not to pass a bill dealing with ram ...
How much political capital is Christopher Luxon willing to burn through in order to deliver his $2.9 billion gift to landlords? Evidently, Luxon is: (a) unable to cost the policy accurately. As Anna Burns-Francis pointed out to him on Breakfast TV, the original ”rock solid” $2.1 billion cost he was ...
TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read:Jonathon Porritt calling bullshit in his own blog post on mainstream climate science as ‘The New Denialism’.Local scoop:The Wellington City Council’s list of proposed changes to the IHP recommendations to be debated later today was leaked this ...
TL;DR:Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said yesterday tenants should be grateful for the reinstatement of interest deductibility because landlords would pass on their lower tax costs in the form of lower rents. That would be true if landlords were regulated monopolies such as Transpower or Auckland Airport1, but they’re not, ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Tom Toro Tom Toro is a cartoonist and author. He has published over 200 cartoons in The New Yorker since 2010. His cartoons appear in Playboy, the Paris Review, the New York Times, American Bystander, and elsewhere. Related: What 10 EV lovers ...
The business section of the NZ Herald is full of opinion. Among the more opinionated of all is the ex-Minister of Transport, ex-Minister of Railways, ex MP for Auckland Central (1975-93, Labour), Wellington Central (1996-99, ACT, then list-2005), ex-leader of the ACT Party, uncle to actor Antonia, the veritable granddaddy ...
Hi,Just quickly — I’m blown away by the stories you’ve shared with me over the last week since I put out the ‘Gary’ podcast, where I told you about the time my friend’s flatmate killed the neighbour.And you keep telling me stories — in the comments section, and in my ...
The first season of Rings of Power was not awful. It was thoroughly underwhelming, yes, and left a lingering sense of disappointment, but it was more expensive mediocrity than catastrophe. I wrote at length about the series as it came out (see the Review section of the blog, and go ...
Buzz from the Beehive Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden told Auckland Business Chamber members they were the first audience to hear her priorities as a minister in a government committed to cutting red tape and regulations. She brandished her liberalising credentials, saying Flexible labour markets are the ...
Chris Trotter writes – TO UNDERSTAND WHY NEWSHUB FAILED, it is necessary to understand how TVNZ changed. Up until 1989, the state broadcaster had been funded by a broadcasting licence fee, collected from every citizen in possession of a television set, supplemented by a relatively modest (compared ...
Bob Edlin writes – The Māori Party has been busy issuing a mix of warnings and threats as its expresses its opposition to interest deductibility for landlords and the plans of seabed miners. It remains to be seen whether they follow the example of indigenous litigants in Australia, ...
The Government has accepted Labour’s change to the Road User Charge (RUC) discount for hybrid vehicles, meaning there will still be some incentive for people to buy greener vehicles. ...
Kicking the most vulnerable people out of state housing and pushing them towards homelessness will result in a proliferation of poverty and trauma across our most vulnerable communities. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader and MP for Waiariki, Rawiri Waititi has penned a letter asking MPs to support his members bill to remove GST from all food. The bill is expected to go through its first reading in parliament this Wednesday. “I’m calling on all political parties to support my ...
This year is about getting real with Kiwis and discussing the tough issues, as the National Government exacerbates inequality and divides New Zealand, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said ...
The Government adding Significant Natural Areas (SNAs) to its already roaring environmental policy bonfire is an assault on the future of wildlife that makes Aotearoa unique. ...
After 12 years of fighting to protect our moana we are finding ourselves back at square one and back at court. Today, the Environmental Protection Agency is sitting in Hawera to reconsider an application from Trans-Tasman Resources to dig up 50 million tonnes of the seabed in South Taranaki. This ...
Minister Shane Jones’ decision to step away from a seabed mining project is evidence of the murky waters surrounding the Government’s fast-track legislation. ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The Coalition Government’s miscalculation saga continues as it has forgotten an eyewatering $90 million gap in its interest deductibility cost figures, say Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds and Revenue Spokesperson Deborah Russell. ...
He Pou a Rangi Climate Change Commission has today released advice that says if the Government doesn’t act now New Zealand is at risk of not meeting its climate goals. ...
The Coalition Government has today confirmed it is abandoning first home buyers who are struggling to get ahead, says Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds. ...
The New Zealand public voted for a change in direction at the 2023 general election and that is exactly what this coalition government has been delivering in its first 100 days. There was an immediate focus on the economy, easing the cost of living, cracking down on law and order ...
The Government has left the health system as an afterthought, announcing half-baked targets at the last minute of their 100-day plan, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
Kiwis are still waiting for their promised cost of living support after 100 days of a National Government that is taking us backwards, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
100 days of National taking NZ backwardsThe National Government has spent its first 100 days stopping, cutting and reversing. They have scrapped stuff for stuff for the sake of it, without putting up any solutions of their own – and it’s hardworking New Zealanders who will pay for it. ...
The Government must commit to funding free and healthy school lunches, as thousands of people sign the petition to keep them, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti says. ...
If the Government was serious about moving families into public housing, they would build more houses so there is actually somewhere for people to go. ...
The free and healthy school lunches programme feeds our kids, helps them to learn, and saves families money – but it is at risk under this Government, education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
The Government’s proposed changes to Firearms Prohibition Orders (FPO) add almost nothing new and are merely an attempt to distract from its plans to loosen gun laws, police spokesperson Ginny Andersen and justice spokesperson Dr Duncan Webb said. ...
The great Victorian era English politician Lord Macauley stood in the British House of Parliament and said, "The gallery in which the reporters sit has become a fourth estate of the realm".He understood and outlined even way back then, the significant role and influence media have in a democracy. ...
The government’s attack on Māori health this week is committing tangata-whenua to a premature death, says Te Pāti Māori. “The government have begun their onslaught on Māori health with the abolishment of the Māori Health Authority and smokefree laws in the same day” said health spokesperson and co-leader, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. ...
"The Government is moving quickly to realise an additional $46 million in tariff savings in the EU market this season for Kiwi exporters,” Minister for Trade and Agriculture, Todd McClay says. Parliament is set, this week, to complete the final legislative processes required to bring the New Zealand – European ...
New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April. ...
Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand. Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships. “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland Acknowledgements and opening Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says. “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024 Acknowledgements and opening Morena, Nga Mihi Nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Thanks Nate for your Mihi Whakatau Good morning. It’s a pleasure to formally open your conference this morning. What a lovely day in Wellington, What a great ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country. “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week. “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
The Government is proud to support the 10th edition of Crankworx Rotorua as the Crankworx World Tour returns to Rotorua from 16-24 March 2024, says Minister for Economic Development Melissa Lee. “Over the past 10 years as Crankworx Rotorua has grown, so too have the economic and social benefits that ...
Legislation implementing coalition Government tax commitments and addressing long-standing tax anomalies will be progressed in Parliament next week, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The legislation is contained in an Amendment Paper to the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill issued today. “The Amendment Paper represents ...
Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard has today announced that the Government has agreed to suspend the requirement for councils to comply with the Significant Natural Areas (SNA) provisions of the National Policy Statement for Indigenous Biodiversity for three years, while it replaces the Resource Management Act (RMA).“As it stands, SNAs ...
Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has classified the drought conditions in the Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts as a medium-scale adverse event, acknowledging the challenging conditions facing farmers and growers in the district. “Parts of Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts are in the grip of an intense dry spell. I know ...
The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has completed a successful visit to India, saying it was an important step in taking the relationship between the two countries to the next level. “We have laid a strong foundation for the Coalition Government’s priority of enhancing New Zealand-India relations to generate significant future benefit for both countries,” says Mr Peters, ...
Cabinet has agreed to provide $7 million to ensure the 2024 ski season can go ahead on the Whakapapa ski field in the central North Island but has told the operator Ruapehu Alpine Lifts it is the last financial support it will receive from taxpayers. Cabinet also agreed to provide ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
Lower fruit and vegetable prices are welcome news for New Zealanders who have been doing it tough at the supermarket, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Stats NZ reported today the price of fruit and vegetables has dropped 9.3 percent in the 12 months to February 2024. “Lower fruit and vege ...
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(did anyone get excited over that widely reported study this week that concluded 'eat more meat! – no worries..!'
well..as it turns out – yeah – nah – eh…?..)
'A surprising new study challenged decades of nutrition advice and gave consumers the green light to eat more red and processed meat. But what the study didn’t say is that its lead author has past research ties to the meat and food industry.
The new report, published this week in the Annals of Internal Medicine, stunned scientists and public health officials because it contradicted longstanding nutrition guidelines about limiting consumption of red and processed meats. The analysis, led by Bradley C. Johnston, an epidemiologist at Dalhousie University in Canada, and more than a dozen researchers concluded that warnings linking meat consumption to heart disease and cancer are not backed by strong scientific evidence.
Several prominent nutrition scientists and health organizations criticized the study’s methods and findings. But Dr. Johnston and his colleagues defended the work, saying it relied on the highest standards of scientific evidence, and noted that the large team of investigators reported no conflicts of interest and conducted the review without outside funding.
Dr. Johnston also indicated on a disclosure form that he did not have any conflicts of interest to report during the past three years. But as recently as December 2016 he was the senior author on a similar study that tried to discredit international health guidelines advising people to eat less sugar. That study, which also appeared in the Annals of Internal Medicine, was paid for by the International Life Sciences Institute, or ILSI, an industry trade group largely supported by agribusiness, food and pharmaceutical companies and whose members have included McDonald’s, Coca-Cola, PepsiCo and Cargill, one of the largest beef processors in North America. The industry group, founded by a top Coca-Cola executive four decades ago, has long been accused by the World Health Organization and others of trying to undermine public health recommendations to advance the interests of its corporate members.'
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/04/well/eat/scientist-who-discredited-meat-guidelines-didnt-report-past-food-industry-ties.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur
But what the study didn’t say is that its lead author has past research ties to the meat and food industry.
Big whoop. It was obvious even without Johnston's study that the health scare-mongering about meat was based on weak correlations with disease. And even those weak correlations were probably achieved through extensive torturing of the results. Johnston's study just puts it in writing in a format that's harder for activists to dismiss.
Which is of course why they immediately go for ad hominem (and gosh, what a surprise that you would participate in an ad hominem attack, Phil). Bleating that a scientist "has ties to industry" isn't an argument.
He shoots – He scores.
I saw the report and knew only one person would mention it and only then in an attempt to discredit it.
It's like groundhog day here, every day, same old same old. Should there be a limit on how many times the same point gets raised over and over?
yr authoritarian-gland is up and throbbing this morning..eh..?
Writes the nong who tells everyone they can't eat meat lol
tbf, I was going to post it, from a different perspective, but wanted to wait until there'd been some analysis of the study done.
I'm sure it would have been less one eyed, partisan and mind numbing predictable whatever you'd come up with.
This article from the BBC Is red meat back on the menu? has some interesting points.
Kevin McConway, emeritus professor of applied statistics at the Open University, called it an "extremely comprehensive piece of work"
And Prof David Spiegelhalter, from the University of Cambridge, said: "This rigorous, even ruthless, review does not find good evidence of important health benefits from reducing meat consumption "In fact, it does not find any good evidence at all."
The full report is at
https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2752328/unprocessed-red-meat-processed-meat-consumption-dietary-guideline-recommendations-from
Yes. Be happy to abide by that myself.
the first post seemed new and relevant (critique of some recent research). It's when the debate drops into ranty assertions of opinion with no substance that I find the conversation tedious. We seem to have gotten there already.
The passive-aggressive behaviour of some I find tedious because you can see that they are digging in and will never dig out. They are wedded to their own opinion that has become an existential part of them and giving in, in an online discussion, is to them like a face transplant and simultaneous amputation of their dominant arm.
Ideologues everywhere, not matter the sanctity of the cause.
I find that the Socratic method can be very useful but for some reason I don’t fully understand it is not all that popular with ‘ideologues’.
True, Weka. I would probably describe it as a bad faith approach likely to incite negative discourse, from the get-go:
Not conducive to good order in the house, as parliament would say.
Also, what Incognito said.
Lol, probably shouldn't encourage the moderators to be Speaker-like.
Demand sheepskin seat-covers!
also a good idea, we should talk to Lynn about that.
As long as you're not enforcing a dress code early mornings or late nights
now there's an idea!
Please no tutus.
Don’t get Lynn started on code!
Recommendations from the Annals of Internal Medicine paper entitled: Unprocessed Red Meat and Processed Meat Consumption: Dietary Guideline Recommendations From the Nutritional Recommendations (NutriRECS) Consortium
The authors are clear that they considered only data relating to individual health outcomes to arrive at their recommendation(s)/guidelines(s).
As the global human population and anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions continue to increase, according to this paper BAU meat consumption is OK (recommended even), at least from an individual human health perspective. We meat eaters will clutch at this now, but consider how the 'scientific evidence worm' can turn (as illustrated @1.1.2.3).
It's interesting (to me) that the focus of the ‘rationale section’ is on the "recommendation to continue rather than reduce consumption of unprocessed red meat or processed meat". A less biased recommendation would be 'to continue rather than
reducechange consumption'.Wonder if the chosen wording might be linked to significant decreases in per capita meat consumption, e.g. between 2002 and 2009 a 25% decrease in NZ, and a whopping 35% decrease in Denmark. Presumably these decreases resulted in a contraction of local markets for meat farmers and processors.
NZers (still) eat a lot of meat. Current average meat consumption could probably drop by at least 50% without compromising nutritional benefits, if the health of NZ vegetarians and vegans (not to mention Great Thunberg) is anything to go by. The paper accurately describes a major positive reason for BAU meat consumption: "In short, omnivores enjoy eating meat…" – simple!
Repetition is the mother of all yearning.
was that an attempt @ humour – on yr part..?
puns still usually have to make a bit of sense..eh..?
or is it a symptom?
With the risk of further unsettling the one-eyed amoebas, it is a classical chicken or egg paradox. Pavlov knew the answer.
No meat in a Pavlova lol
I had a fly landing on my Pavlova once and I ate it.
That's a story with legs… Six of 'em
I’m all eyes!
“I name myself Tribore, because even if I try to bore you, I can’t, I’m too interesting”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw_dv7zs-9g
um..!..did you even read the piece..?
this scientist you place such credence in – was pimping sugar in 2016…
did you read about his funders..?
but still ok with all that..?
and the evidence of possible negative health outcomes from flesh and bye-product consumption is getting stronger by the day..
and doesn't the fact his pro-meat bullshit is such an outlier to the general medical consensus on meat/dairy consumption..that less is best and preferably none..
just underline what a paid-for-schill he is..?
but that's all aok with you..eh..?
heh..!
Yeah, yeah, we get it, you're a vegan, and an early adopter, too.
Since before plants were a twinkle in an amoeba's eye, lad.
That’s really funny.
Cheers. Sometimes it's all you can do, eh.
There's no meat in a primordial soup
Those lenticular clouds came from somewhere.
even the clouds are vegan now.
Not when it’s raining cats and dogs.
Waiter! There’s a fly in my primordial soup!
Shhh, every lizard will want one.
Shhh, many people still think it is a conspiracy.
Don't worry, the spider on your bread will get him
That’ll be a Happy Meal.
Not for the fly
The fly should have watched La Grande Bouffe [that one is a treat for Phil as he obviously needs cheering up].
Can a vegetarian eat a vegan?
Only if they are in a vegetative state (such as Queensland).
@ incognito..
''La Grande Bouffe [that one is a treat for Phil as he obviously needs cheering up].'
i've actually seen 'la grande bouffe'..(a good flick..)
funny story – it reminded me of the labour party..
(ideologues locked into their neoliberal-incrementalist belief-system…as the world around them changes..)
heh..!
and i don't need 'cheering up'…i am resolutely cheerful..
and at this moment i am enjoying the buzz from some really good weed..and am preparing to go eat a dinner being cooked for me..
what – me worry..?
To laugh or to cry, that’s the question.
yr credibility as a humour judge has taken a dent..
there was not a scrap of originality in that..
and surely a component of humour has to be surprise at the new..?
a foil was useful for further roasting.
No results found for "Since before plants were a twinkle in an amoeba's eye"
No results found for "no meat in a primordial soup"
Doubly original! I guess we could conclude one should never expect the witless to judge wit.
Comedy left of central
@ sacha..
yes – that is because it is a nonsense..it makes no sense…
don't mistake nonsense for originality..eh..?
If we take "nonsense" to mean "a meaningless jumble of words", it seems to me that a vocabulary of 8,000 words would give 8000^6 discrete six-word phrases.
Odds are, therefore, that nonsense is likely to be more original than anything meaningful.
Enough people understand. Now isn't that a better way to spend our time together than bitching and moaning?
um..!..did you even read the piece..?
I did! It includes this piece of information that's relevant to your ad-hominem-based critique:
and doesn't the fact his pro-meat bullshit is such an outlier to the general medical consensus on meat/dairy consumption..that less is best and preferably none..
Nope. That consensus is based on bullshit social science (ie correlation = causation errors supported by confirmation bias), which is pretty much what his study shows. It would help if medical practitioners stopped trying to build "general consensus" based on weak correlations.
heh..!..yr counter is the publisher of this putrescent pile of crap..?
(that is funded by the beef industry)
that's funny..!
and her reasoning is evidence-free claims that 'others do it too'..?
right ho..!..
and that's all good enough for you..?
Your comment demonstrates the same problem that Morrissey's do: instead of considering the information provided, you consider the ideological merits of the person providing it, with "merit" effectively determined by whether you agree with them or not. That said:
If you really must argue from authority, then yes, the editor of the Annals of Internal Medicine is way more of an authority on this subject than you are.
Her point isn't "others do it too," her point is that many of the people publishing in this area have conflicts of interest, that the conflicts aren't only on the industry side and that conflicts on the anti-meat-activist side generally aren't declared by those with the conflicts. It's not a very relevant point to the merits or otherwise of nutritional studies, but it's a highly relevant point in the context of your ad-hominem-based opposition to Johnston's study.
spot on PM.
wot..?..are those who have done the research to reach the general consensus..(y'know..!..bacon/cured meats carcinogenic..?..do you doubt that one too..?..)
are these scientists/researchers secretly funded by the carrot industry..or something..?
i'd be fascinated to hear yr guesses as to who may be secretly funding all these anti-meat conclusions..?
is there some world-wide vegan conspiracy you have to alert us too..?
i mean..are you fucken listening to yrslf..?
yr claims are getting more and more irrational..
you are a flat-earther on diet..eh..?
(wd you like some bacon with that…?..)
First, a reminder that this sub-thread isn't discussing the merits of Johnston's study, it's discussing the merits of your ad-hominem critique (wouldn't want anyone to think I was accepting that ad hominem is an acceptable argument against Johnston's study).
i mean..are you fucken listening to yrslf..?
Oh, the irony. Your argument against Johnston is that he has a conflict of interest, in that his research has been partly funded by industry. You present this as a compelling reason to disregard his research.
However, when it's pointed out to you that many of his critics have conflicts of interest, in that they're vegan or vegetarian activists, you present that not as a compelling reason to disregard their criticisms, but as a wildly irrational conspiracy theory that only flat-earthers or similar could entertain.
"Are you fucken listening to yrslf?" Good question, how would you answer it?
'However, when it's pointed out to you that many of his critics have conflicts of interest, in that they're vegan or vegetarian activists,'
heh..!
are you suggesting the medical consensus on meat consumption has been arrived at thru the nefarious doings of 'vegan/vegetarian activists..?
heh..!
i didn't realise there was so many of us..
but well done us 'vegan/vegetarian activists'…..!..eh..?
we are clearly winning – given that consensus we've managed to whip up…
fuck yur funny..!
"and doesn't the fact his pro-meat bullshit is such an outlier to the general medical consensus on meat/dairy consumption..that less is best and preferably none.."
Nope.
https://twitter.com/wekatweets/status/1180254292554334208
Science journalist Gary Taubes wrote this article in 2002. His book was published in 2007 and present, in depth, from the the 1800s to the 2000s, the science done on cholesterol and how that was co-opted and misused to distort public health messages. Including large interference from plant food industries.
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html
you are talking apples and oranges..you do know this don't you..?
the underlying point is the same (apples and oranges are both fruit despite their different forms).
right ho..!
that's an example of yr logic/reasoning..is it..?
no it's an example of me responding quickly to a question you asked that didn't really make any sense.
Lol
If you go and read that Time article Weka you will see it is BS.
No where did the study say to eat butter, it was more along the lines of "butter is no worse, or only slightly worse for you, than margarine".
You should do a bit more research on it and how the dairy industry used that article and a fabricated shortage of butter to boost butter prices in the lead to Christmas 2016.
And Fonterra's response was to increase butter production to show it was doing something, which turned out a total failure, because when you make butter you end up with skim milk powder which was collapsing at the same time, as Europe already had stockpiles it could not sell.
So Fonterra ended up with no additional profit but a shed load of capital expenditure it never needed. Part of the reason it is in the shit. Misleading science and media reporting of that science.
This is why you have to beware of industry led research.
So while your arguments about Phil's ad hominem may be technically correct, any scientist will be sceptical of vested interests publishing research and to not do so is just plain silly and ignores repeated patterns of behaviour which shows such research is crap.
sorry, which research is crap? If you look at the Gary Taubes reference, you can see a science journalist who examines the fat hypothesis for over a century and finds that it too is based on vested interests and bad science.
On top of that, even the mainstream peer reviewed medical journals have been writing about the corruption of the peer review process, and doing so for a long time now. The numbers of medical studies that are flawed or bought is alarmingly high. When I've commented about this in places like TS in the past, I've been met with pro-science people saying oh but science isn't to blame, it's value free, or science is still better than nothing, or it's ok for medical science to make mistakes because the damage is outweighed by the benefits.
I'm sceptical of *everything, because it's not just industry capture, it's the bollocks that scientists and pro-science public have also allowed to happen and continue.
I still haven't seen who funded the study released this week. If you know I'd be interested. As I've said elsewhere in the thread, I find the research interesting but I'm not yet convinced of its value.
Re the Time covers, I was just looking for a quick, obvious way to point out the shortcomings of claiming that the mainstream scientific position on certain foods is meaningful, because later science changes its mind. 'Outlier' scientists have been criticising the fat hypothesis for almost as long as it has existed. They're outliers because of culture, not because their science is bad.
As for Fonterra, they're up there with tobacco companies and Monsanto for greedy fucks who destroy things so they can make money. If they were stupid enough to base their business plan on that Time cover and vested interest manipulation, that's on them. NZ has long had the opportunity to invest in regenerative farming systems and still is not doing it, so I have waning sympathy for the people getting caught up in Fonterra's misfortune despite being generally supportive of farming as a critical aspect of human societies. Fonterra is all about making money and sfa to do with growing food or making a decent living.
That's a total fob off and deflection of what I said.
That Time article is BS, and yet you say you used it to make a point.
You said "No where did the study say to eat butter, it was more along the lines of "butter is no worse, or only slightly worse for you, than margarine"."
Can you please tell me which study you are referring to?
Here's the Time article for reference,
https://time.com/magazine/us/2863200/june-23rd-2014-vol-183-no-24-u-s/
Ah no I will not be drawn into your deflection.
If you want to use it as a reference then you cite the study and what the abstract says.
Not just use an industry generated headline as proof.
afaik Time didn't use a single study as a reference, so I was a bit confused by what you meant. Hard to know how the Time article is bullshit if you won't say. What others did after that is a different matter (but interesting as well, and I agree there are vested interests, I just think they're on all sides including the anti-fat one).
Fwiw, the message to eat butter can easily be read as if you want to eat butter instead of margarine then do so. Kind of like what's happening with the meat research this week.
How old are the ties? I'm thinking they should have been declared and then there'd be no drama.
That said, if we put a spotlight on nutritional research where prior, or even current vested interests meant exclusion, many studies would have to be excluded (including pro-vegan ones) 😉
What I'd like to see is some decent critique of the study itself.
‘How old are the ties?’..
this notorious funding group funded this study – fresh enough..?..)
"What I'd like to see is some decent critique of the study itself.'
on the day it came out – wallace chapman interviewed a professor of nutrition ((ak uni) on rnz..
said professor cd not have been more scathing..
and he was not talking about the funders of the study..
he was talking about how the study was constructed/run..
and the conclusions reached..
and as i said..he cd not have been more scathing/dismissive..
will he do for yr 'decent critique'..?
(rnz website shd have the interview..i think it was chapman sitting in for jesse mulligan on afternoons..)
"this notorious funding group funded this study – fresh enough..?..)"
What notorious funding group?
the funding group cited in the article i linked to…who funded this study..
the lead researchers' financiers..
'The industry group, founded by a top Coca-Cola executive four decades ago, has long been accused by the World Health Organization and others of trying to undermine public health recommendations to advance the interests of its corporate members.'
(hope that clarifies that..)
and is that professot of nutrition from ak uni i cited as piring contempt on this bullshit credible enough for you..?
Sometimes you are hard to understand phil, so let me summarise this sub thread:
I asked how old the ties between the lead author and the industry are. I don't think that's been answered yet.
You said that the study was funded by industry, but your link and quote is talking about a previous study (on sugar consumption?) that the lead author was involved in, that was funded by an industry group.
So we know from that that the lead author's previous work in 2016 was connected to the sugar industry. Apples and oranges there phil?
My response to that is that it's relevant, but only in the context of understanding that the anti-fat health science of the last 50 years has similar connections to industry. Vegan research has similar ties.
This doesn't help us assess the value of the study published this week.
i officially give up on this conversation..
it isn't an industry-group..it's a corporate-propaganda group – wodely discredited for publishing corporate-supporting lies..
this guy was pimping sugar in 2016..(credibility much..?..)
and every medical organisation that has looked at this has rubbished it..
i have twicw pointed you at a professor of nutrition from ak uni..who poured comtempton this pile of steaming bullshit..
but all of that has you still believing what supports yr addictions to eating animal-flesh..
so i can't do/say any more – yr denial of the evidence is gobsmacking..
so i'll just leave you to it..
And promise not to bring it up again tomorrow, and the next day, and so forth Ad nauseam Ad infinitum?
Ad all
De profundis ecce homo
From the Dal uni website page Behind the beef a comment says it's funded by
But another comment to the piece rightly states
Catching up. Read this,
No shit. This is precisely why it's still not being talked about, fear that when people find out the truth they will stop trusting the people who've been giving them such bad advice.
Thing is it's not like bad pro smoking or anti climate change science, bought and paid for with corporate cash, it's analysis of raw data from several studies.
But no surprise to see push back from those advancing what could now be the wrong message for years.
I was meaning that there has been corporate capture in nutrition science, and when people find out that the fat is bad hypothesis is so wrong I think it's reasonable to be critical of the science and the institutions involved. Public confidence is a critical issue here.
Not sure about the raw data argument. All data has to be processed through human brains and thus gets layers of interpretation and bias naturally. For me it's more about being able to examine those biases and be honest about them. Kind of like politics.
I guess, like most things these days, it will come down to what fact or alternate fact people choose to believe.
Most people don't have the scientific literacy to either work directly with raw data, or critique published studies that do. Most rely on their GP, and public health messaging and the MSM. It's a huge issue, and many pro-science people have been strong on not talking about it.
This study looks interesting to me, but I still haven't seen a clear set of analyses that convince me who I should believe. That's an indictment of science culture as a whole, and it sucks that we should all be in this position of having to choose which facts we believe.
The study was published only on Oct 1, so it will take a little while for meaningful critiques/analyses to come out, and much longer for peer-reviewed, published articles.
But in a way we don't need these. Look at the "Recommendations" section in the abstract and the recommendations are categorized as "weak" based on "low-certainty evidence" (link to study at the bottom of this post).
Then look at the "Evidence Summary for Harms and Benefits of Unprocessed Red Meat Consumption" and "Evidence Summary for Harms and Benefits for Processed Meat" sections. The evidence for reducing consumption is categorized as low or very low certainty.
Finally, read the "Rationale for Recommendations for Red Meat and Processed Meat" section.
From my reading, the authors are opting for the status quo because the evidence is not good enough to confidently decide either way.
https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2752328/unprocessed-red-meat-processed-meat-consumption-dietary-guideline-recommendations-from
@ weka..
'u said..'This is precisely why it's still not being talked about, fear that when people find out the truth they will stop trusting the people who've been giving them such bad advice.'
wow..!..that is how you read all those takedowns of this bullshit..?
as a big conspiracy by them..?
not as a warning about lies being peddled that have health inplications for those believing it..?
are-you-kidding-me..?
The appropriate reaction to almost every nutrition study should be "Meh, whatevs". This piece explains why:
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/10/4/20897383/nutrition-advice-science-meat-psychology-replication
tl;dr The effects of any particular dietary change (if there even are any) are sufficiently small and the accuracy of measurements and data collection is so poor that it's hard to get any meaningful results. Someone's diet has to be pathologically extreme, or that person has a specific health condition relating to specific foods, before there are likely to be significant health consequences from removing or adding specific foods to even a moderately balanced and varied diet.
There's pretty clear evidence that shifting whole people's off their traditional diets onto high carb diets correlates with high levels of chronic disease very quickly. There's also reasonably good work showing causative factors.
I see a *lot of people reporting ill health from vegan diets. Maybe that proves your point (being vegan is extreme), but it does just remove specific foods.
I also think that telling people to avoid eating animal fats is extreme, but that's the mainstream advice and I'm not sure what your point is. That people should eat what they want?
My point is that if your diet includes portions from all food groups (ie, at least moderately balanced, if not well-balanced), then from a personal health perspective there's unlikely to be big benefits from any big changes such as eliminating red meat. Or eliminating animal fats.
Vegan diets are not even moderately balanced, there's entire food groups missing. That makes vegan an extreme diet. So while it is possible to be healthy on a vegan diet, it takes a lot of knowledge and care to ensure it includes a full set of nutrients. There are a significant number of vegans that don't and thereby suffer ill-health as a result.
Similarly, excessive refined carbs falls into the category of extreme diets with other foods massively under-represented.
Then when it comes to specific ethnic groups that have had generations to evolve around specific diets, that's a whole 'nother conundrum. For instance, the Maasai diet is mostly milk, blood and meat, and it apparently works for them. Switch a Maasai onto a diet that's well-balanced for a european, and I'd expect it would have adverse effects for the Maasai.
Cheers, agree with most of that.
Excessive refined carb diets is also known as the standard American diet (SAD). NZ does better because I think we still eat less refined, and industrialised foods, but relative to human history our diets are still very high carb. This is one of the consequences of the low fat messaging, people just ate more carbs. It's not quite as straight forward as this but what happened next was a spike in heart disease and diabetes.
So when we talk about extreme diets, that's most people in the West.
@ weka..
' NZ does better '
um..!..only incrementally..?..surely..?
we in nz are right up there in the obesity stakes..
yes, in part because Māori and Pasifika peoples have been shifted off traditional diets onto high carb ones thanks to anti-animal fat messaging (amongst other factors eg colonisation). Pākehā are having similar problems.
Obesity isn't the problem (it's not an illness). Diabetes and heart disease are, and there are clear correlations between them and high carb diets.
My point was more that NZ can probably shift to a less extreme diet more easily than the US who now seem to eat a very extreme diet with many people not knowing what good food even is. Whatever its limitations, NZ's traditional meat and three veg dinners now look positively healthy by comparison (and probably really are).
@ weka..
u said: 'I see a *lot of people reporting ill health from vegan diets.'
got any (credible) linkls/evidence of that..?
i know a lot of vegans – over decades.. u can usually pick them out in a crowd – 'cos they look healthy..
that is why i ask for evidence of this repeated claim of yrs..
Lots of first hand, personal stories on youtube. 'no longer vegan' is a search term that google autofils, so common is it now.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=youtube+no+longer+vegan
Nick is an awesome person, he really is, I've run into him a few times, he's a great guy who wants to see more tiny houses in our district. What has happened to him is crazy and will put so many people off getting a tiny house and that in itself blows, big time.
They left the wheels behind it's as simple as that, but the TDC are being absolute arseholes about it. In Motueka there are currently 30 families on the waiting list for housing, we need more small houses not roadblocks. Meanwhile ALL OVER our district are house trucks, buses etc that haven't moved for years, probably aren't even capable of moving now, but no one goes after them.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/116242040/motueka-man-in-battle-with-council-over-tiny-house#comments
The tiny house that Nick has is from Eco Cottages in ChCh and it's beautiful, check out their work, amazing!
http://ecocottages.co.nz/
Hi Cinny, it is so frustrating to watch. An ideas, creative person, comes up with a fantastic product/service then gets stymied by bureaucracy.
Both parties need an interface. By that I mean the creative (heart) party needs a head type person to deal with the council. The council needs creative types to accept proposals and find a way or compromise to assist their public.
The risk averseness of councils can go over the top.
Edit, I am getting my wires crossed with another story about a chappie who is having council issues at the production end of the chain.
Taking the wheels off seems indicative of intention for it not to be mobile. A caravan would only have that done if it was not road worthy or was being repaired. Who would transport a caravan on the back of a truck when it can easily be towed?
It's also not a caravan if it's 3.1m wide. The legal width for vehicles is 2.5m. If you want to move something on the road wider than that you have to get a permit.
I agree councils need to change given the housing crisis (and TDC are probably being stupid here), but I'd think there are reasons why tiny home people are getting into these difficulties when housebus people aren't (and let's hope TDC doesn't start going after the buses). I'm also wondering what the tiny home builders are saying to clients, because it looks like this man was given bad advice.
Haven't these "trailers" come up before?
I'm all for innovation, but they really do look like an attempt to dodge building regulation – and we all know where that ends up. Only instead of leaky buildings, in the case we end up with a trailer park full of uninsulated, untransportable (because the chassis rusted) slum homes.
It looks to me like people trying to skirt building regs with those oversized ones. Otherwise build an actual caravan and live in that. You can make it look like a house if you want, but it still needs to be something that would transport easily on the road. Definitely a buyer beware situation for resales. Ideally people building should be keeping records of what materials they used, and how they were constructed. But people buying caravans don't have the protections of building regs, so I think it's ok to build tiny homes with the same expectations. More honesty about all this would help.
I would expect ones built by companies where you can see who the owner/manager/builders are will be sound. I also think there are plenty of owner builders, or housebuilders who can now build them competently. But there's already ripoffs happening from crooks taking people's money and then not completing building. And there will be a certain % of bad builds too. People are desperate for housing, and many seem naive going in (hence we have building regs for housing).
Their motivation would be interesting to hear.
the complainer or the council's motivation?
Councils have an obligation to investigate breaches of bylaws if they are brought to their attention.
The complainer. Reporting something before it has even happened seems dedicated.
People complaining because they fear their property value will be affected seems common.
"Choat said council had been obligated to investigate when a member of the community had informed them of Hughes' construction plans in April."
Odd given the build happened in Chch. Maybe he started landscaping? Putting in utilities?
Could be he just has a neighbour that doesn't like him.
Might be coveting his ass, who knows?
People are strange.
Jealous builder?
Could be someone who wants to keep the area rural and underdeveloped (either for value or just they like the view). The sort to object to any housing consent, at all.
True. Seems more of the story to come.
Thou shall not covet thy neighbour's ass, so sayeth the Commandment of the Lord.
If God didn't want people to covet each other's asses then inventing sex was a silly way to go about it.
Anyone got on-the-ground gossip on the mayoral races of either Dunedin or Queenstown Lakes?
Ad, did you see the Spinoff snakes write up on the Dunedin mayoral candidates? 🐍
Peter Newport has been running candidate videos on his Crux site and has produced this analysis based on engagement https://crux.org.nz/community/pitiful-voter-turnout-so-far-by-qldc-and-codc-residents/
Interesting that Alexa Forbes has come out with an endorsement of Jim Boult.
Nick Kiddle started off as single issue candidate opposing the visitor levy, he's a motelier, but has picked up a lot of support from hospitality cost accountants, and people who are called street pavers in our household. They come here thinking the streets are paved with gold and set up, then bumble along. About 5 or 6 years later they discover the streets really are paved with gold, just that it was their gold. At present this is a sizeable subset of the Queenstown Lakes population and may include Mr Kiddle.
My pick is Boult for Mayor, but close and a council favouring controlled growth.
Over the hill in Wanaka it's Airport Airport Airport, and will be interesting how that comes out. Wanaka is a very seperate race to ours in Whakatipu, but issues and motivations are the same, just we are several cycles ahead of Wanaka.
Central Otago looks like Tim Cadogan by heaps, interesting guy and doing a good job. Big issue is about where and how Cromwell expands. They built a Motorsport Park on the southern edge of town which is where the town should be expanding. Lots of arguments around reverse sensitivity and huge population growth and demand making fiery race for Council and Community Board.
(this is a good read – how portugal solved their heroin overdose epidemic..)
'In 2001, Portugal was experiencing an opioid-involved overdose crisis, similar to the one gripping the United States. The country used criminalization and incarceration to try to manage drug use, while HIV rates among people who use drugs were the highest in Europe.
In response to this emergency, Portugal launched its decriminalization program that year, and the rest is history. Overdose deaths have plummeted by 80 percent, while the percentage of drug users diagnosed with new HIV infections fell from 52 percent in 2000 to 7 percent in 2015. Rates of problematic drug use and drug-related incarceration have also fallen, while numbers of people voluntarily entering treatment for substance use issues have increased.'
https://filtermag.org/portugal-decriminalization-drug-use-explained/
Very interesting. A triumph for practical and kindly legal action, instead of moralising, punishing societal controls encouraging corruption of the pocket and the soul, of both offenders and those dealing with them.
that's a tidy summary…
Why dont you say it Phil "decriminalization program"
Its wasnt a legalisation at all. So Sad .
Instead:
“If police find you with illicit drugs, you’ll be arrested and taken to a police station where the drugs will be weighed. If the amount is above the strictly enforced threshold limits — designed to be a 10-day supply for personal use, or 25 grams of cannabis, five grams of cannabis resin, two grams of cocaine, or one gram each of ecstasy or heroin — you can be charged as a trafficker. If convicted, jail terms range from one year to 14 years.
if you arent an addict – just recreational ! then ignore harm reduction at your peril
Indigenous people targeted for doing what we should all be doing.
Nearly three years after two women began allegedly plotting to disrupt the Dakota Access Pipeline, the Department of Justice (DOJ) is charging them with several federal crimes that could land them behind bars for 110 years
[…]
Now, Reznicek and Montoya face up to 110 years in prison for these alleged crimes. If convicted, they would be the latest to go to jail for protesting the pipeline. All of the other individuals have been incarcerated are indigenous, Carl Williams, the executive director of the Water Protector Legal Collective, which is representing them in court, told Earther. There were 761 arrests made during the protests, but only five individuals have served time. Some are still in prison, but others are out on parole and, as Williams put it, “still under the control of the federal government.”
https://earther.gizmodo.com/two-years-after-confessing-dakota-access-protestors-ch-1838783498?IR=T
Friday night dump – it wasn't just a blockage.
/
https://twitter.com/elizacollins1/status/1180245041475997697
Hopefully he puts staying alive first. Especially being only third in that other race.
Aww. c'mon.
Dr. EvilDick Cheney wasthe manipulative power behind the throneVeep after multiple heart attacks. Surely the Bern can match that.But seriously, several people close to me have had stents put in. Afterwards, the changes I was most concerned about were not so much physical as cognitive changes, probably due to the medications they went on. For all of them, it took years of adjusting the doses of statins, beta-blockers etc to find a combo of specific brands and doses to get them back to upstairs functioning similar to pre-heart attack.
Cheney was only VP when he had his major attack – (he had a heart transplant in 2012 while out of office) but not his first.
The VP job is nothing like the responsibility of being President.
Oh and the other matter Sanders is only running for the democratic nomination…hes neither President or VP yet.
They need to be more forthcoming about Sanders condition…what artery ..what type of stent..
The pressure is only going to increase till the election in a year or so, and then ramp up again if elected.
The VP job is nothing like the responsibility of being President.
Yeah. 98% of the job description is just continuing to have a heartbeat in case the president suddenly doesn't. So having already had three heart attacks by the time he was chosen wouldn't have seemed the ideal qualification. But hey, I'm no HR expert, what would I know?
It looks more and more like the end of Bernie Sanders for 2020. Even if he make a remarkable return to full health and decides to continue, I suspect the damage will be fatal for his nomination hopes. It's all very well to aim to be over 80 at the end of your term as president, but after a health scare like this, it'll be hard to win over more than the hardened Bernistas.
At least a lot of his policies are compatible with Warren’s, so those looking forward will have a ready made home for their votes.
Elizabeth Warren represents a new politics in which by challenging the power of the oligarchy she has the potential of reclaiming the white working class for Democrats and uniting them with the coalition of professionals single women gays and minorities who elected Obama
Elizabeth Warren raises $24.6m in latest quarter, just behind Bernie Sanders
The rats have noticed that the lower decks are awash.
https://twitter.com/oliverdarcy/status/1180243400907460608
Rat runs amok at the white house
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue1Zu5hy1-k
Tucker nails it yet again… one of the few journos to counter those Trump conspiracy theories.
Ainsley?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HCZDYbLly0
Whadda ya know a talk show host thinks a conversation centering on Russiagate was actually just about getting dirt on Biden…
And of course, for some reason only die hard republicans are pushing, you agree how the potus asking a foreign government for dirt on a potential opponent isn't a bad thing at all.
Explainsley to
AinsleyMauiHad to do a couple of trips to Auckland airport and back to Hamilton last week, and boring drive aside, with some regular running to work and back and around town included, I managed to eek out 43mpg from 49lt after 742km travelled.
I don't love inanimate objects, but I do have a serious crush on my just shy of 30 years old MX-5.
mpg?
6.6L per 100km 🙂
Equals 42mpg. Not bad for a 30 yr old car considering my golf7 does 5.8 l / 100km or 48mpg. Mind you that’s mainly urban stop start driving and not trying too hard 😉
460 of those km were motorway, the rest urban, so not bad at all. I've got higher just from long runs only, but like you say below, light car with judicious use of the throttle gets you that sometimes.
sorry yeah that was the conversion.
Not sure what my wee moped gets, but I suess it's about 3 or 4L per 100k
cheers. That's better than anything I've driven.
Yeah, miles per gallon. I'm old, so it more meaningful to me to use old money than litres, as McF notes.
it was more the juxtaposition of imperial and metric 😉
Covering the bases for those kids who first went to school the year the decimal system came in subsequently use cm on rulers but envisage feet for distance. lol
haha, this is me. Bilingual for child sized measurements but not large ones.
There's a lot of older small cars that are surprisingly economical, mainly because they are so much lighter than modern cars since they aren't carrying around all the safety stuff a 2019 car has. So 5 – 7L / 100km isn't hard to achieve in the right 80's or 90's car.
The idea of blanket age bans, like Japan, on efficiency grounds could throw a few babies out with the bath water. Japan's 5 year regime is more about supporting their manufacturers so not relevant here but an incentive to get rid of guzzlers has merit.
Our commuter, 50km into Queenstown and back, 7 days, is a 1986 Honda City. Consistent 5l / 100km with 300,000 km under it's belt and original mechanicals. I run a 1971 Landrover for my fencing work which makes up for the City, I don't bother counting how much fuel that consumes, but overall running costs (repairs, depreciation, insurance and fuel) are considerably less than the modern 4×4 utes the farm manager drives around in and it's as reliable. Repairs on his J rego Navara were horrific.
If we wanted to do right by nature, what we could have done is audited the NZ car fleet, looked at which cars were worth keeping on the road, promoted less car driving alongside major investment in alt transport (public, walking, biking), and brought in EVs as needed but with regards for the GHGs created in their manufacture.
Trying to replace the whole fleet with EVs and BAU usage is the same daftness as demolishing good but older housing instead of retrofitting, and then building theoretically more energy efficient houses but ones that are larger (thus use more power) and have significant embodied energy and GHGs in their build. We really are still at the stupid end of this stuff.
Because our regulators refuse to do the job properly. Half-arsed tinkering won't be enough.
My reasoning for running the fleet we do is that once the shit hits the fan those decisions are going to be made for us, and humanity isn't going have any redress. Up to that point there are so many uncertainties about how it will pan out that any decision could be totally wrong.
We probably not much different to the very early transition from horse to motorcar, when there were lots of different technologies, battery electric, steam and countless ice ideas floating around, but it wasn't until a quite basic, but reliable concept and manufacturing breakthrough of the assembly line came together with the Ford Model T, that the horse went out to pasture. We're probably at about 1903 when the best thing was the steam car, and cities were having to deal with mountains of horse shit
We still have to stay alive in the current world and have an eye for how the world is going to change into the future, but as that world changes so do our options which may be what we see now, or may be something totally different depending on what technological opportunities or climatic realities emerge.
Getting rid of the worst emitters and substituting with a lower emitter, if there's a viable substitution, is a no brainer. Gross technology changes by could be fraught if we make the wrong choices.
Any decision to power down won't be made by us, consensus won't happen until the decision is made for us by nature. Unfortunately humans aren't wired like that.
Hmmm my 2007 Prius does around 4.5 l/100 K over a similar route Thames to Auckland return. On a long run – down to Wellington with 4 persons it did around 4.2 l / 100 K. Around town I can drive to the shops and half way back on EV before the motor kicks in as the return journey is up hill.
Isn't it just so refreshing to know that our 'officials' are on to it all (going farward):
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116350054/ministry-of-health-fronts-as-cyber-attack-leaves-patient-data-exposed
August – September – October. And rest assured, y'all can be assured your GP files are safe and sound.
Tse tse tse tse! Them bloody Spanish anarchists eh. Geez they’re a bit of humour.
(/sarc)
Obviously "not a big issue" ….. until it suddenly is.
The demonstration of competing egos and cleverness – (above) – is obviously far more important.
QI this site eh? It could be used as a case study in MDIA and SOSC 101 studies.
I sometimes think that whilst the Tory comes with an inherent expectation of being deserving, these days the Left (as it has evolved and stands today) deserves itself
I read today "All Blacks: World anger as captain Kieran Read in clear after no arms tackle"
I thought I stayed awake through the completely fawning coverage of our national sport on TV1 6pm news last night and and tonight. I did not see one reference to this matter (correct outcome or not). For the so-called main news channel in New Zealand, this is pathetic and the reverence accorded to rugby is way over the top.