Open mike 05/10/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:35 am, October 5th, 2014 - 177 comments
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177 comments on “Open mike 05/10/2014”

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  1. karol 1
    5 October 2014 at 7:48 am

    So an NZ Herald (woman) journo asks various people how Labour should rebuild. It asks some left and right wing guys, and one right wing woman.

    And one of the leftie guys reckon Labour needs a Shane Jones or a Tamihere to lead….

    Politics has become increasingly masculine under John key’s watch.

    • Pat O'Dea 1.1
      5 October 2014 at 7:51 am

      Anyone who thinks that Shane Jones or John Tamihere should be leaders is not left.

      • phillip ure 1.1.1
        5 October 2014 at 8:17 am

        i have banged on a bit about shane jones..

        http://whoar.co.nz/?s=shane+jones

        and let’s not forget fascinating facts such as hekia paratas’ husband funding the jones tilt at the labour party leadership..

        ..what was up with that..?

        ..yet another of those questions you’d like an answer to..

        ..like stuart nash doing a fundraiser for his election-campaign at that bastion of the right/establishment..the northern club in auckland..

        ..what was up with that..?

        ..and who was there..?..

        ..who donated..?

        • Richard 1.1.1.1
          5 October 2014 at 8:23 am

          Phil I suspect some of the left have the greed gene too. However waving wads of cash usually helps to break their cover and flush them out..

          To me Jones is not even a contender, the public would have imagined him in the PM office watching porno’s..he’s screwed for life on that one.

          Note to the elected keep your nose clean if it gets dirty not even time will wear it off.

          • phillip ure 1.1.1.1.1
            5 October 2014 at 8:27 am

            the thing i find fascinating about nash..

            ..is how relentless his links to the right are..

            ..there is the northern club fundraiser..

            ..his links with slater/lusk/hooton..

            ..the rightwinger buying/paying for his red fire engine election-prop..

            ..his stated neo-lib/fuck-the-poor! politics..

            ..you almost get the idea/feeling nash has been placed in labour..

            ..by the right..

            ..their manchurian candidate..

            ..and that his name is bandied about as a future leader..

            (albeit mainly by him..and rightwing corporate-journalist servants..everyone else goes ..’really..?..why..?..’)

            ..is kinda both farcical and horrifying..

            • Richard 1.1.1.1.1.1
              5 October 2014 at 8:33 am

              Don’t think it phil know it.

              Your probably bang on and just don’t realize it.

            • phillip ure 1.1.1.1.1.2
              5 October 2014 at 8:59 am

              and anyway..nash will likely be a one-term mp..

              ..if garth mcvicr doesn’t split the vote for him again..and gift him the seat..

              ..national will take the seat back..

              ..mc vicar is to nash..as the green party is to dunne…

              ..both gifting seats to ostensibly mortal-enemies..

              ..and i wd submit those two facts..

              ..as the irony-peaks/o.d.’s of that election-campaign..

              • Karen …
                5 October 2014 at 10:32 am

                Unfortunately Nash will probably get a high list placing next time and won’t have to win a seat.

                He is a right wing plant – I’m convinced of it. The left need to keep exposing him for what he is so that he doesn’t get any traction within the party.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  5 October 2014 at 11:01 am

                  Of course he is. Nash loves the surroundings and attention (and $) that the right wing can lavish upon his political career. And have been doing so already, in a material way.

                  • karol …
                    5 October 2014 at 5:25 pm

                    it’s worrying then that he seems to be supporting Andrew Little….?

                    • Murray Olsen …
                      5 October 2014 at 10:13 pm

                      Worrying, but expected. Little inherited the Engineers’ Union from Rex Jones, one of the most right wing class collaborators who has ever led a union. Back in the 80s, Engineers’ officials spent more time keeping militant workers out of the factories than anything else. Little was a student politician and then a lawyer. The Labour Party needs a ban on this sort, but instead they come up with the gift to the right that was the “man ban”.

                • Olwyn …
                  5 October 2014 at 11:30 am

                  One thing that points in that direction is the amount of media attention he is getting, the frequency with which his opinions are sought, and the respect with which those opinions are treated, bearing in mind that he has just been elected to parliament – that is a dead giveaway.

                  • Anne …
                    5 October 2014 at 12:22 pm

                    And don’t forget he’s good looking, has a lovely smile, nice white teeth and fits the shallow circumstantial mould – that is, youngish married man with attractive looking (no doubt) kids. They are apparently considered to be all-important pre-requisites if you want to be accepted by the celebrity driven MSM culture – especially the TV culture.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      5 October 2014 at 5:09 pm

                      +1

                      Got to celebrate the shallow else they’d have to dig deeper and if they did that then they’d find the corruption and they don’t want to do that.

            • Jenny Kirk 1.1.1.1.1.3
              5 October 2014 at 9:39 am

              I totally agree , Phil U, from his own mouth Nash has clearly shown that he plays with the rightwing moneyed people – and he’s in Labour ? Yuk. He’s got his political parties mixed up,

              • phillip ure …
                5 October 2014 at 10:05 am

                he reminds me very much of simon bridges..

                ..that same combination of sneering and arrogance..

                ..they both wear that on their sleeves..

                ..and i think they both came from the same cookie-cutter..

                • Richard …
                  5 October 2014 at 11:12 am

                  Simon Bridges reminds me of a very angry man who wants to fight anyone who asks him a question. National on this should back bench him. He really is the lefts best weapon in National.

            • Pasupial 1.1.1.1.1.4
              5 October 2014 at 10:05 am

              Newly elected Labour MP Stuart Nash says he has been taking advice from “dirty politics” operative Simon Lusk…
              questions over his links to key players identified in Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics – Mr Lusk, Cameron Slater and Matthew Hooton…

              “He’s run a pretty good campaign, I think, in terms of what I’ve seen, and I’ve taken some advice on how to message stuff there,” Mr Nash said.
              He said other Labour MPs, and some Hawke’s Bay regional councillors, had also been in contact with Mr Lusk over the Ruataniwha dam issue.

              Mr Lusk yesterday declined to comment on his relationship with Mr Nash. Mr Nash said he had written two articles for Whale Oil blogger Mr Slater when Mr Slater was editor of the Truth newspaper…
              “I have mates right across the political spectrum and I make no apology for that. But having said that, I don’t consider Cameron Slater or Simon Lusk friends. Matthew Hooton certainly is a very good friend of mine…

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503462&objectid=11337024

              Nash is wise not to; “consider Cameron Slater or Simon Lusk friends”, as I am yet to be convinced that either of them understand the concept. However, the question remains about whether he considers them colleagues.

              I suspect he was misquoted, and actually said; “I have mates across the right of the political spectrum”.

              • Jenny Kirk …
                5 October 2014 at 10:13 am

                Every time Nash opens his mouth, he puts his foot in it. Now Hooten is also his very good friend ….

              • marty mars …
                5 October 2014 at 10:21 am

                nash is a playa – he doesn’t need slater and lusk to be ‘good’ friends if hollowhooton is there – I suppose ‘people’ like nash are seeded all over – I wonder if they go to a camp to learn how to pretend to be left – you know like the movies with the pretend american town to train those russians in the minutiae of US life. Anyway playa gotta play so I expect a lot of vocalisations from nash – on anything and everything…

            • Paul 1.1.1.1.1.5
              5 October 2014 at 11:32 am

              And the right splitting the vote for him to win Napier

            • North 1.1.1.1.1.6
              5 October 2014 at 8:43 pm

              Shoosh Phillip Ure…….”Neither for nor against…..” don’t ya know ? Look to the right of the monitor – NZOnScreen – 1951.

      • Jenny Kirk 1.1.2
        5 October 2014 at 9:36 am

        Those guys – Prebble, Hide, Samuels, Tamihere – are just tired old hacks, no longer living in the real world and without any relevance to the real world. I don’t know why the Herald (and other media) keep on using them as spokespersons – they repeat the same old mantra time after time, and now they are Boring. Very, very boring.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2.1
          5 October 2014 at 11:29 am

          I don’t know why the Herald (and other media) keep on using them as spokespersons – they repeat the same old mantra time after time,

          Because they repeat the same old mantra time and time again. Presenting the populace with fresh new ideas is anathema to the MSM.

      • risildowgtn 1.1.3
        5 October 2014 at 12:36 pm

        or masculine

      • whateva next? 1.1.4
        5 October 2014 at 1:57 pm

        too right!

    • mickysavage 1.2
      5 October 2014 at 8:07 am

      Yep I just wish the Herald would stop asking right wingers who the Labour leader should be. Anyone with any sense would understand that their advice is tinged with malice.

      • adam 1.2.1
        5 October 2014 at 10:37 am

        That’s the point Micky, each little knife they can slip in the better. Between the labour party playing a game of thrones, and the corporate media playing fast and loose with the truth, another person is put off voting. Media owned for the corporate interest, know the game – we should too.

        • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.1
          5 October 2014 at 10:58 am

          the game is to develop alternative media infrastructure and interpersonal information channels deep into NZ communities.

          • Richard 1.2.1.1.1
            5 October 2014 at 11:10 am

            An online left version of the Huffington post(as an example)

            She started small taking exerts from others news outlets and posting them for lack of own journalists and grew it to a large following.

            We need a left version of it in NZ. a lot of publicity and some clever web site designers.

            Is that what you mean CV?

            • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.1.1.1
              5 October 2014 at 11:31 am

              that would certainly be one option!

              • adam …
                5 October 2014 at 1:18 pm

                Of many – On this I think many on the left agree.

                To keep wishing or hoping that the corporate media will operate with any honour, seems to be a sign of willful blindness by our population as a whole.

                When our news is run for money and profit, it will always go for the almighty dollar, one sensation at a time.

                To critique the news is no longer enough – we need to produce the news in a more truthful and fulsome manner.

                • blue leopard …
                  5 October 2014 at 1:25 pm

                  What I don’t understand is why the left-wing politicians haven’t found some techniques and skill in addressing this problem.

                  Rather than counter the propaganda, the left-wing are pandering to it too much.

                  They should be providing people with another way at looking at things to hook onto.

                  The amount of times that I heard ‘Dirty Politics’ characterised as a ‘distraction’ by left wing politicians in this last election is a very good example of what I am talking about – it could have been turned around to be made into a policy issue for cleaning up our democracy.

                  The Greens have achieved the most on countering right-wing framing of matters yet I would like to see more of these skills from all left-wing politicians and wonder why they haven’t developed them already.

                  • adam …
                    5 October 2014 at 1:41 pm

                    You only truly counter propaganda when you produce news which speaks to truth yourself.

                    The dominance of editorial methodology which embraces money and profit – makes any attempts to counter the overall ideology of money worship, a very difficult task.

                    Your statement blue leopard also brings up the question for me of how many of the so called left politicians are left? Why are they so complicit in an overall support of a system which hurts their voter base?

                    As far as framing goes – look at Ralph Nader – love or hate him, the guy got things done – until – and this is important – the right took his language, and twisted it to their purpose in the corporate media.

                    I think we need to speak to the truth of an issue – no matter the cost.

                    It is why I’ve so vocal in my attacks on labour as a political party and why I think it is a dead weight around the left.

                    And CV I think you are so right we need to reach deep into NZ communities, with a good well rounded approach, communicating a clear and inspiring vision. We need to stop making people feel disempowered, this is what our corporate media and current crop of professional politicians seem to be doing in spades.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      5 October 2014 at 1:48 pm

                      adam, blue leopard, both of you have cut right through to the heart of the matter IMO.

                      As far as framing goes – look at Ralph Nader – love or hate him, the guy got things done – until – and this is important – the right took his language, and twisted it to their purpose in the corporate media.

                      the “Right” who attacked Nader, also included the Democratic Party, who wanted to see his third party movement to the left of their own destroyed and permanently out of electoral politics.

                      Which to my mind, has direct parallels to what Labour has successfully done to Laila and Hone, I might add.

                    • blue leopard …
                      5 October 2014 at 1:55 pm

                      I totally support the setting up of an informative media channel, however, the countering of propaganda in response to MSM messages is still required because even if there was another news media channel (whatever the platform) some would still be looking at the old one and simply allowing the propaganda to slide – or even worse answering it in a manner that implies there is some foundation for thinking the way the propaganda frames it – simply leaves that ‘idea’ in peoples’ heads and supplies no opition for the people listening to the propaganda of looking at it in another way. It is very damaging indeed.

                      Therefore, left wing politicians need to learn to counter the propaganda no matter what.

                      I really am puzzled by why they haven’t developed this skill to date.

                      I think your questioning of Labour (or anyone being simpering toward the false narratives) is a natural response because when one has looked into things and one sees someone doing that, it just looks like they are unconvinced by their own political stance.

                      I think some of this, however, has more to do with lack of skill in arguing and could be improved by getting skill. They ultimately lack passion more than anything though, and seem more worried about ‘fitting in’ than getting anything achieved. 🙁

                      I haven’t heard of Ralph Nader and will look him up.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      5 October 2014 at 2:13 pm

                      Ralph Nader ran as the third Presidential candidate against George Bush and Al Gore in 2000. The Democrats attacked Nader throughout the campaign and then blamed him for Al Gore’s final loss.

                      The Democrats could not allow a truly progressive and independent voice to stand; as such Nader was far more dangerous to the Democrats then the Republicans.

                      Nader has also run since then, but is typically completely ignored by the US corporate media.

                    • blue leopard …
                      5 October 2014 at 2:22 pm

                      @ CV

                      Thanks very much for that summary!

                      That is a problem with their electoral system – splitting the vote of potential ‘left’ supporters. Labour has no excuse for that here [cross-face].

                      I was reading an article about Britain’s UKIP party, also having that problem of splitting the left vote.

                      I am really glad we have MMP here, it would be excellent if our left-wing politicians, especially Labour, learned how to use it to the left’s advantage.

                      If they continue in the tracks they have been going to date, then I think it is fair to say Labour don’t want left-wing principles to be encouraged, Up until now, I have been giving them rather a lot of lee-way for daftness but will be doing so no more.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      5 October 2014 at 2:29 pm

                      side note…as I am sure you know, UKIP shouldn’t be considered a left wing party by any stretch of the imagination 😎

                      Their success derives from UK Labour becoming such a middling, centrist party of the establishment.

                      The NZ Labour caucus has been frakking around with the future of our nation and you are right, no more leeway for them.

                    • blue leopard …
                      5 October 2014 at 2:37 pm

                      @ CV

                      I should have provided the link to the UKIP article. Here it is:

                      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/16/ukip-divided-left-right-cut-labour-support

                      I know very little about UKIP, in fact that article is one of the few things I have read about them.

                      Just to be perfectly clear, (although I think you probably got the point) that comment I made about UKIP was to highlight how the voting system in the UK & USA creates an issue with splitting the vote whereas ours is better in that regard, I was not attempting to provide any knowledge of UKIP, because I can confidently say I know very little about them! 🙂

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      5 October 2014 at 3:45 pm

                      Worth remembering that the initial set up of the US electoral system was carried out by 40 wealthy, property owning, slave owning white men who were interested in maintaining their own privilege in any new democracy.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  5 October 2014 at 1:43 pm

                  To critique the news is no longer enough – we need to produce the news in a more truthful and fulsome manner.

                  This.

                  • greywarbler …
                    5 October 2014 at 5:20 pm

                    @ blue leopard 2.37
                    I remember having a look at UKIP and putting up some links. Then, I think it was about them being successful in getting into the European Parliament. And I was interested in how the EP had dropped the threshhold low which I think is so unwise, opening it up to the poisoned tip of the dagger from toxic parties.

                    Anyway if you search for UKIP on TS it has been mentioned a lot.

                    • blue leopard …
                      5 October 2014 at 5:33 pm

                      Thanks Greywarbler, its not really a focus of my interest, but may follow the leads in the coming days at a quiet point – always good to learn something new 🙂

              • North …
                5 October 2014 at 8:55 pm

                The issue of the molestation of Democracy by a bunch of (metaphorically) pimply, ‘really really need to be on the telly’ narcissists, bought off by media corporates and mutated by their own vanities, is very much alive. It has to be addressed. It must not be let lie.

      • whateva next? 1.2.2
        5 October 2014 at 2:03 pm

        My response exactly to Whaleoil putting Nash and Davies up for leader, sheer arrogance, or at least Lusk manipulation, or both. Previously, MSM has amplified Whaleoil’s voice, and it becomes mainstream narrative, no matter how bonkers the idea, will it still happen after dirty politics exposed?

    • Richard 1.3
      5 October 2014 at 8:30 am

      Karol, try not to read it. Seriously, it’s just whale oil, main stream, the only people who really read it are so right wing it panders to their mentality. Or the left wanting to know what the rights doing by way of brainwashing the masses.

      The only thing to do is smear the rag as far right and leave it be. definitely do not allow it to influence any decision you make.

      • David H 1.3.1
        5 October 2014 at 8:45 am

        Do what I did E-Mailed the Wanna be Hack that scribbled it, and just gently pointed out that she should stick to being the Tea lady, as the Granny has enough hacks in Armweak etc etc.

        • Richard 1.3.1.1
          5 October 2014 at 8:57 am

          Hmm good idea I did.

          • weka 1.3.1.1.1
            5 October 2014 at 9:30 am

            Doubt that the Herald Editors are going to take any notice of people who ridicule them.

            • Richard 1.3.1.1.1.1
              5 October 2014 at 9:56 am

              No they tend to ban anyone who thinks any of their so called journo’s is a bais twat.

              • weka …
                5 October 2014 at 10:08 am

                Right, so when you email them, how about pointing out the problems with their coverage without calling them a twat or ridiculing them?

                • Richard …
                  5 October 2014 at 10:26 am

                  Passed that point three months ago Weka. I’ve definitely tried the polite avenue to many times to recount.

                  Now I’m down to insults as they just do not care, they have a hidden agenda not all the horses on the planet could shift. I insult them for personal satisfaction now.

                  In fact the Herald is lower than whaleoil in my opinion, because they have far more influence on the voting public, whereas only the nutty right read whaleoil.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    5 October 2014 at 10:57 am

                    The NZ Herald has been tory leaning since day dot. That’s the point of every big establishment newspaper in NZ, and worse so since the media corporates took over.

                    We shouldn’t be still acting surprised and disappointed in this, at this late point, right?

                    • AB …
                      5 October 2014 at 12:25 pm

                      It seems so. I recall Chris Trotter saying that the NZH was vocal in calling for the invasion of the Waikato in 1863 at the behest of Auckland business interests.
                      Being the scholarly type Chris has probably been up to the Ak Museum to read the microfilmed originals – assuming they’ve still got them after the reign of mad Vanda. So I don’t doubt him.

                      And he mentions Iris Wilkinson (Robin Hyde) being told as a cub reporter in the 30’s to not say anything about the NZLP. All comments had to come from the NZH’s senior staff.

                      So nothing much has changed. Feel the long sweep of history eh? But most voters are completely ahistorical and live in the present.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      5 October 2014 at 12:31 pm

                      Workers, union members and their families were utterly vilified by the big papers during the watersiders strike of 1951 (?). I’m fairly confident that was also the case for the Great Strike of 1913.

                    • swordfish …
                      5 October 2014 at 3:43 pm

                      “I’m fairly confident that was also the case for the Great Strike of 1913”

                      Yep, it was. Here’s a comment I made on Brian Edwards Media back in 2010…..

                      “There’s a long, long history of this. A few years ago, I came across an unintentionally amusing article in a 1913 edition of Wellington’s TRIAD magazine. It was on the Waterside Workers’ lockout/strike (which a few weeks later snowballed into the General Strike of 1913 – notorious for Massey’s Cossacks).

                      The report began by describing the wharfies as “dark and furious persons of unpleasant aspect”. ….. The writer then went on to spend more than a few column inches emotively listing the various inconveniences the lockout had caused to the general public (nothing changes in 100 years); before ending on a moral high-note with this colourful little crescendo of xenophobia: “All of this because Wharfside Bill has a grievance…..Bill is sometimes an English subject, sometimes a non-descript negro, and sometimes a representative of one or other of those deceitful nations whose men wear rings through their ears”.

                      That was a Wellington-based magazine. The big papers were no different – particularly the morning papers The Herald, The Dominion, The Press and the ODT. All closely associated with Massey’s right-wing Reform Party. (the evening papers were closer to the Liberals).

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      5 October 2014 at 3:51 pm

                      Brilliant, thanks. Those uppity darkies, still causing issues.

                      Which goes back to the points made above. Why 100 years on is the left still fixated on the MSM instead of building up alternative infrastructure and assets like The Standard.

                    • karol …
                      5 October 2014 at 5:32 pm

                      AB, you don’t need to go up to the Museum, just have a search through NZ Herald articles on Papers Past (1863-1945)

                      And this is what Papers Past (part of the National Library of NZ) says about the NZ Herald:

                      For decades the New Zealand Herald changed little in its appearance and sober, right-of-centre editorial stance; this was epitomised for half a century by the generally conservative cartoons of Gordon Minhinnick. The sobriquet ‘Granny Herald’ was part affection, part frustration.

                      See also this NZ Herald report of 1863, on the defeat of Maori in the Waikato

    • Colonial Viper 1.4
      5 October 2014 at 10:55 am

      Politics has become increasingly masculine under John key’s watch.

      How did you go from a few uninformed peeps talking about Shane Jones and JT (who have their own political constituency, sure, but one which stretches back many many years) to blaming John Key for making politics more “masculine.”

      Voters had a choice of a Labour and Green Party for which gender balance was a significant issue of policy, equality and inclusiveness; and a choice of a party which had fewer than 1/3 women in caucus and constantly downplays the issue by talking about “merit” instead.

      Outcome: the people who didn’t care about gender balance in politics as a major issue either decided to vote National, or they decided to stay at home.

      • blue leopard 1.4.1
        5 October 2014 at 12:58 pm

        “Outcome: the people who didn’t care about gender balance in politics as a major issue either decided to vote National, or they decided to stay at home.”

        Unsure if I am entirely clear on your point, here.

        If you are trying to establish that policies about gender balance/rights didn’t ‘decide the election’, then I would tend to agree.

        If you are arguing that the having a balanced gender in a party doesn’t have an impact on election results, then I think this point is problematic, due to National’s skill at ‘guiding’ perceptions.

        When I heard that National had less women than Labour earlier in the year, I actually had to go and check that by counting, I had to check because I would find it far easier to list National female MPs than Labour ones. If pushed, I possibly could come up with a longer list of Labour female MPs – possibly – yet doubt this would be the case for those who don’t watch parliament TV on the regular basis that I do (which is largely where I see the female Labour MPs). With regard to someone with less interest in politics, I suspect National would come across as having more female representation than Labour because National have placed women in some very high profile positions and this means male and female MPs from National get on TV and in the papers in fairly equal proportions. I don’t see this occurring with Labour.

        I don’t know if women (or men) base their decisions on how representative the party they are voting for looks, or not, but I wouldn’t be surprised if part of National’s success is the appearance of a reasonable balance. (This may also be the case with regard to ethnicity too, although I haven’t thought too hard over that one, so could be quite incorrect. )

        With regard to looking representative of the general population:

        Between the two main parties, I would say National appear more balanced.

        Between the Greens and NZ First – I would say the Greens are more balanced.

        I suspect that any type of sway on voting choice re ‘balanced representation’ won’t be made on a conscious level by everyone but for some it will and significantly, I very much doubt that any representational balance would put someone off, who wasn’t making that a point of decision.

        In summary, wouldn’t say this matter was the be all and end all, but I do suspect it will be significant and that an effort made to come across as not being largely dominated by ‘male’ and importantly I will add here ‘white’, too, is an effort well worth making for accumulating wider appeal.

  2. b waghorn 2
    5 October 2014 at 8:00 am

    Shane would of been a disaster well he was looking off into the distance replaying what he just said in his head again key would of nailed him to the wall

    • Skinny 2.1
      5 October 2014 at 10:11 am

      An over inflated ego of his own self worth sums up Jones. He large ego will see him return to politics as a list candidate for NZF at the next election, probably as a contender successor to Peters. I would be making it very clear if and when this happens that NZF will side with the Nats, the ease of his transition to his current National party jacked up junket says it all. Not to be trusted!

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.1
        5 October 2014 at 11:36 am

        Jones has got a secure, well paid govt job which lets him jetset and is not subject to caucus BS and fickle voters; why would he walk from that?

  3. Richard 3
    5 October 2014 at 8:18 am

    Thoughts of my day..

    Why are policies announced but never the in’s and out’s of them.

    During the election I felt like parties were announcing policy by name with no detail.

    Take my conversations yesterday on open mike about the CGT. It appears to me to many unanswered questions we’re left on such a polar subject. To many home owners did not understand it. Nor the raising of retirement. Crikey Robertson was even defending it on Backbenchers last night. Whilst the Nats claimed it was not needed they were growing the economy. You know I’m on my way to the moon right now too. /sarc I heard it was made of cheese.

    Slight distraction from topic, who boldly states they are growing the economy when dairy and the dollar are diving. Who has the balls to lie like that.

    back to topic

    ALL contentious Policy should be accompanied by a leaflet drop with loads of questions answered about it. Both the CGT and Raising of retirement certainly required more than a press release and some debate questions. In fact a leaflet drop would have made DC’s leader debates answers easier.

    haven’t you read our leaflet john?

    • MrSmith 3.1
      5 October 2014 at 8:48 am

      Or maybe it would be better to introduce an idea like CCT after being elected, put it out there and let people debate it in public for three years, by then most should have a far idea of how it would affect them, then take it to the people at the next election.

    • lurgee 3.2
      5 October 2014 at 9:10 am

      More people support a capital gains tax than are opposed to it.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11282563

      CGT isn’t the problem. Key just grabs it, every three years, to win a couple of cheap headlines after the debates.

      • Richard 3.2.1
        5 October 2014 at 9:24 am

        If the Herald told me the sky was blue. I would immediately go outside and check it out for myself.

      • Skinny 3.2.2
        5 October 2014 at 10:21 am

        Liking it and voting for a party who wants to introduce it are obviously two different things.

      • Herodotus 3.2.3
        5 October 2014 at 10:23 am

        How can a policy such as a CGT be seen as a cure for our housing unaffordability when the CTG tax rate is 1/2 of the coy and top PAYE tax rate ? This was no cure.
        If Lab14 version had followed Lab11 version and complemented a CGT with a $5k tax free threashold then this could have been viewed as a tax redistribution, benefiting tenants, and PAYE workers. If kiwibuild had been complemented with an increase in housing NZ stock then many would have seen the Lab14 version as being seen as an active attempt in solving housing in particular aucklands housing issue. Hit property speculators as hard as your can, if trading then tax at 28%.
        So I disagree CGT is the problem, it is lukewarm solution by neoliberalism protecting their own kind.

        • Colonial Viper 3.2.3.1
          5 October 2014 at 11:38 am

          How can a policy such as a CGT be seen as a cure for our housing unaffordability when the CTG tax rate is 1/2 of the coy and top PAYE tax rate ?

          Also, it does not apply to a vast part of the housing stock known as “family homes”.

    • Karen 3.3
      5 October 2014 at 10:55 am

      I think that a leaflet explaining a policy would be a great idea Richard. I think the main reason Labour lost was their lack of a simple clear communication of important policy. Most of the population are not going to read130 pages of policy on a website that wasn’t very accessible.

      Labour boasted at having so much detailed policy compared to National, but
      people not that interested in politics don’t care. They need to be given something simple they can understand and these policies should have been on billboards – vote Labour to increase the minimum wage by $2 an hour. Vote Labour to protect our rivers. Vote Positive is meaningless.

      I think the CGT is a good idea but there was a huge amount of misinformation out there that could have been countered by a well designed leaflet as you suggest. Same with minimum wage increases. It was obvious the Nats would say it would increase unemployment so why not preempt the claims in a Q & A leaflet?

      • Herodotus 3.3.1
        5 October 2014 at 11:17 am

        You mentioned that a CGT was a good idea, Just curious why? Is that IYO it will solve the house affordability issue for just address the idea of a fairer tax system ?
        Many of the issues to preempt cannot be placed at DC’s feet, labour strategists should have been able to foresee any of the nats counter claims and had the responses already available, but it appears that they were found lacking….

        • Colonial Viper 3.3.1.1
          5 October 2014 at 11:39 am

          Very lacking. Yet they are likely to be the same people running the 2017 campaign, as they were the 2011 campaign.

        • Karen 3.3.1.2
          5 October 2014 at 11:47 am

          The CGT will not be enough to solve house affordability, but could slow down the the rampant inflation of house prices in Auckland. Its main benefits are that it would discourage property speculation by those trying to avoid paying tax as well as raising more tax revenue from those with higher incomes. Working class people often can’t even afford a home of their own let alone an investment property.

          All other OECD countries have a CGT and as a result NZ property speculation is seen as attractive by foreign investors. It would be better to get investment in the productive sector.

      • Kiwisaver 3.3.2
        5 October 2014 at 5:39 pm

        A simple pledge card with a few main policies and Party Vote labour. Keep CGT for second term and retirement age same.

  4. Richard 4
    5 October 2014 at 9:06 am

    On another Subject..

    Today or very soon I hope they find little Jack who was swept out to sea.

    My utterly sincere and deepest condolences go out to the family, friends and all that care about the wee fella.

    Time jack was found and bought home. I not a religious man but I will have a little prayer today being gods day, for his return.

  5. weka 5
    5 October 2014 at 9:44 am

    Newly elected Labour MP Stuart Nash says he has been taking advice from “dirty politics” operative Simon Lusk and has always been happy talking to people across the political spectrum.

    “I have mates right across the political spectrum and I make no apology for that. But having said that, I don’t consider Cameron Slater or Simon Lusk friends. Matthew Hooton certainly is a very good friend of mine, and I bang into him socially every now and then, and he’s quite enjoyable company, but that doesn’t change my politics or how I view things, believe me,” he said.

    “When people say ‘be careful of your right-leaning friends’, I say ‘why would I do that?’ We [MPs] get advice from a whole lot of different people – Matthew doesn’t give me advice.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503462&objectid=11337024

    • Pasupial 5.1
      5 October 2014 at 10:42 am

      Hadn’t seen this when I quoted the same text above in response to P Ure. Did you get the link through TDB as well?

      http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/10/04/final-vote-national-lose-majority-will-greens-go-right-could-littleardern-ticket-save-labour/

      If you have the stomach for it, here are Nash’s posts on TDB – he’s always been one of the few authors on that site that with whom I’ve consistently disagreed. This wasn’t so important when he was a private citizen giving a window into the thoughts of the Labour rightwing. Now that he’s a parliamentary representative, it seems a bit more disturbing.

      http://thedailyblog.co.nz/category/bloggers/stuart-nash/

      Politics is about winning. Nothing else. MPs can philosophise, criticise, pontificate, and machinate as much as they want in opposition and it doesn’t count for a thing… I have said Labour brand. I personally don’t give a damn about any other party’s message, policies or political posturing because I am not representing that party or their aspirations on the doorstep or the soapbox when I am campaigning. I know, you know, and the voters know that in an MMP world a major party cannot govern alone; that coalition partners are vital to forming a government. At this point in time that is not my concern.

      – See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/01/24/politics-and-winning/#sthash.ayQwHtWr.dpuf

      Also his predictions are woefully inaccurate given his supposed access to internal Labour data. The GP went from 247,372 (11.06%) in 2011 to 257,356 (10.70%) in 2014 getting 14 MPs in both elections. Nash’s prediction?

      The Green party received 11.1% at the last election. History will show this is the high-water mark for them. I expect them to get around the 6.7% they polled in 2008; or even close to the 5.3% they got in 2005.

      – See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/01/10/its-not-what-you-say-but-what-they-hear/#sthash.AyIZ4FUO.dpuf

      History has shown that Nash possessed a faulty political weather-vane in this judgement, why should we expect any future announcement of his to have any predictive validity? He has done as much as any Labour candidate (except Jones or Davis) to drive wedges between the Labour party and its MMP allies on the left.

      • Richard 5.1.1
        5 October 2014 at 11:03 am

        “History has shown that Nash possessed a faulty political weather-vane in this judgement”

        Yeah well, I thought labour would romp home and national would be thrown out by the public for the Dirty politics of one JC.

        Boy was I wrong.

      • weka 5.1.2
        5 October 2014 at 11:20 am

        very good thanks.

        My dislike of Nash comes from his election byline which went something like ‘Labour supports the people who work hardest not moan the loudest’. Dog whistle and wedge politics.

        • Colonial Viper 5.1.2.1
          5 October 2014 at 11:46 am

          Nash is a corporate type who likes the money and enjoys all the trappings money can access

        • Kiwiri 5.1.2.2
          5 October 2014 at 12:16 pm

          Nash said that???
          LOL!!!
          He himself has been the one moaning, very often ill-timed and reflecting poorly on his colleagues.

      • Murray Olsen 5.1.3
        5 October 2014 at 10:43 pm

        I wonder why Bumbler Bradbury gives him space? Given the number of people whose comments never appear, it can’t be in the interests of open debate.

  6. anker 6
    5 October 2014 at 9:54 am

    Weka @ 5 perhaps this explains Hooton’s on-going disgraceful dissing of DC.

    BTW anyone see Q & A. I caught the end of the “panel”……………….seemed to be promoting Andrew Little.?

    • Richard 6.1
      5 October 2014 at 10:02 am

      No but watching it now.. think it’s chanel 504 or 502 on sky for the delayed hours viewing so you can catch it again if you missed it.

      Putting up with another bunch of pro rights led by Susan and there token lefts who do and say stuff all in the lefts defence.

      best comment was by Bryce so far stating the RMA and dairy prices were a problem for National. But Boagy said it won’t matter with the idiot coat tailers passing it anyways.

      Shocker coming from Bryce usually he’s stuck up Keys bottom.

    • BM 6.2
      5 October 2014 at 10:13 am

      If Little enters the race, that’s the end of Cunliffe.

    • tc 6.3
      5 October 2014 at 10:32 am

      Q&A is just more 2 tracking DP tactics using an under the thumb SOE as the delivery mechanism.

      Hooton will take the lead sales role now with cam and david needing to be more circumspect as unlike those 2 matty doesnt run a site full of spin dogwhistling up the rednecks.

    • Skinny 6.4
      5 October 2014 at 10:37 am

      Little interviewed fairly well, not as good as yesterday on The Nation, however good enough for sum of us to see him as a real Leader option. Mike Williams seemed annoyed and put out Andrew was being so glowingly talked up, he appeared more comfortable talking up Grant & Nash. What I can say is having talked individually with all those 3 and DC, I found Andrew Little naturally engaging and genuine with a finger on the pulse to things relevant.

  7. joe90 7
    5 October 2014 at 10:31 am

    As our young drown in a sea of debt.

    Lower Saxony is the final German state to scrap tuition fees, meaning that all German universities are free of charge for all students – and yes, that includes overseas students.

    “Tuition fees are socially unjust,” Dorothee Stapelfeldt, senator for science in Hamburg, told the Times. The state scrapped fees in 2012. “They particularly discourage young people who do not have a traditional academic family background from taking up studies. It is a core task of politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high quality standard free of charge in Germany.”

    German universities were allowed by law to start charging fees in 2006, when a constitutional court decided that moderate fees combined with loans did not violate the country’s commitment to universal higher education. Most schools only charged relatively low amounts of around €1,000 a year (£845) – but that didn’t stop state governments from changing their mind after eight years.

    http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandculture/article/22027/1/germany-scraps-tuition-fees-for-all-universities

    • Paul 7.1
      5 October 2014 at 11:50 am

      Local government with powers in Germany.

      • Pat O'Dea 7.1.1
        5 October 2014 at 3:53 pm

        No wonder the establishment are trying so desperately to demonise New Zealand resident Kim Dotcom, spreading around his crazy German ideas about free tertiary education and wanting to see young people freed from student debt. We wouldn’t want crazy foreign ideas like that catching on here. No Sirrreee

  8. phillip ure 8
    5 October 2014 at 10:31 am

    i see the corporate-media hacks have now deserted grant robertson..

    ..and are now anointing andrew little as the new leader of labour..

    ..and are insisting that the appearance of little..

    ..must be the signal/reason for cunliffe to roll over and play dead…

    ..(how many ‘reasons to go!’ for cunliffe have the media dreamed up so far..?

    ..i have lost count..

    ..and like robertson..

    ..my observations of little in parliament confirm that he does not have what it takes..

    ..he has not shone there..nor in interviews..

    ..little will make a great minister..and is clearly an intelligent/considered person..

    ..but cunliffe (this time with policy backing his promises..) is still clearly labours’ best chance for victory in 2017..

    ..nobody else mooted come close in ability to take it to both key and national..

    • Skinny 8.1
      5 October 2014 at 10:43 am

      Have you met any of them in person Phil? My advice don’t sell Andrew short he is more sincere and talks with you rather than at you.

      • Hanswurst 8.1.1
        5 October 2014 at 10:54 am

        While I agree that their attributes in personal interaction are of some importance, the fact is that it isn’t the leader’s job to go into the hone of every person in New Zealand, shake their hand and share a cream tea. They are supposed to debate, articulate vision and policy and set the course for the party as a whole. My reaction whenever I see the “Have you met them in person?” thing trotted out here (and it’s coming up with regular monotony at the moment) is, “No, and why on Earth should I care?”.

      • phillip ure 8.1.2
        5 October 2014 at 2:41 pm

        @ skinny..

        ..where does little sit on the left/right spectrum..?

        ..is he a neo-lib robertson..?

        ..or a progressive cunliffe..?

        ..that is what concerns me..

        ..(if a three-headed goat promised to do away with neo-lib and to make labour a real labour party again..i wd support them for the leadership role..)

        ..(and also having seen him in action in parliament/debate..gives me doubts as to if he is ready for the job..)

        ..but otherwise he seems fine..

        ..and on a ‘trust-ranking’..i wd have him @ 8-9/10..

        ..whereas i wd have the likes of nash..at..oh..!.i dunno… minus 3..?..(is that too harsh..?..)

        ..and no..i have ‘met’ none of them…

        ..(and of course a standard question for nash from now on whenever he opines on whatever..wd/must be:..

        ..’and what did slater/lusk/hooton advise you to do about this..?..

        ..are we again hearing their words thru you..?..’..)

        • phillip ure 8.1.2.1
          5 October 2014 at 5:32 pm

          i also have a certain wariness about the union movement in general..

          ..’cos of their silences during those nine long years of ignoring/demonising of the poor by the clark govt..

          ..i still haven’t heard an explanation for that benchmark in ‘i’m alright jack!’..from those unions..

          ..so that someone is from a union means little to me..

          ..(see what i did there..?..)

    • tc 8.2
      5 October 2014 at 10:46 am

      Labours best chance is to use mmp effectively, work with other opposition parties and dont be so cavalier with socially unpopular policies like raising retirement age.

      govts lose elections more so than oppositions win them, they needed to work with greens and mana not scare middle nz, be united etc and nats would probably be gone now.

      Its this failure to do what it takes to win and show nz that coalition is workable, which deflates an attack theme. However they lecture middle nz with a ‘we know best’ and that will continue to keep them in opposition.

    • Richard 8.3
      5 October 2014 at 10:58 am

      Cunliffe and if Little joins will be a hard decision for me. I like DC but also have to admit to myself he’s not universally liked by the masses. Little has no such hang ups. Hard choice as David will take labour if allowed where I personally want them to go.

      Little I have to find out but he shows up good and level headed in interviews, but can he deliver in chambers or debates.

      • Stephanie Rodgers 8.3.1
        5 October 2014 at 11:36 am

        It’s a transferable vote, Richard, so you would only have to figure out which gets your #1 and #2 pick.

        • Richard 8.3.1.1
          5 October 2014 at 11:48 am

          Sorted, then. That’s good news, two I like, and two votes. Thanks Steph as the info hasn’t arrived yet. Just a nice email from a labour big wig. Telling me as I joined after election day they were a little tied up getting me up to date. I understood it completely.

      • odysseus 8.3.2
        5 October 2014 at 11:42 am

        Anyone’s blood race a bit when Little is on the telly? No, didn’t think so. The charisma of a newt.

        • Richard 8.3.2.1
          5 October 2014 at 11:52 am

          No but he spoke good common sense. My heart raced as in their was finally another choice, I was of the impression may be better. remember he pretty much only needs to get Labour as a minimum into, the somewhere in the mid to high 30’s with Greens support and hopefully Winny, we would have a government. It’s a real possibility with Little, a lot of hard work for DC. Not chance with GR and the hiding he will get media wise pre 2017 election.

        • Dialey 8.3.2.2
          5 October 2014 at 1:08 pm

          Charisma s over-rated and few understand it – after all people say Key is charismatic, but he is as bland as blancmange. There have been very few charismatic leaders over history, modern ones include Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King – we have nobody of that calibre any where near the reins of power or even pretenders.
          Common sense would be good; the ability to articulate complex policy in terms everyone can understand; a certain modesty but the boldness to actually stand up for what is right; and the ability to respect others and convey the sense that everyone is valued. Those are the qualities I look for in a a leader.

      • phillip ure 8.3.3
        5 October 2014 at 2:52 pm

        @ richard..

        “..but can he deliver in chambers or debates…”

        ..in a word..going on my observations..no..

    • infused 8.4
      5 October 2014 at 5:31 pm

      Well, I lost quite a bit of money on him on ipredict… Actually have some faith in little.

  9. SPC 9
    5 October 2014 at 11:22 am

    Policies and how Labour could have better communicated them.

    1. The age of super.

    No increase in age of super until after 2030.

    The age would be gradually increased after 2030, but by no more than 3 months per year.

    The message would then not be Labour increasing the age but promising no increase before 2030.

    • Colonial Viper 9.1
      5 October 2014 at 11:50 am

      Why even frakking increase the retirement age at all, when we already have an excess labour pool and not enough full time jobs to go around???

      Cunliffe said that Labour would not be the political party which cuts off your leg but with anaesthetic. All you’ve said here is, sell how good the anaesthetic is.

      • SPC 9.1.1
        5 October 2014 at 12:01 pm

        The first issue at play is that Labour has to improve its game in marketing policy.

        It needs to identify how the public reacts to policy so it can better market it.

        The second issue is to take the public on board bit by bit (the Key strategy for change over time – bed things in before moving on).

        Then Labour looks like a less risky change option.

        Your point, about what the policy should be, is another issue entirely.

        But for mine, the current surplus of labour is not caused by a proposal to increase the age for super in over a decades time.

        And the proportion of people working over age 65 now is much greater than the number that would be impacted by an increase from age 65 to 67. And this number is increasing regardless of what the age for super is.

        • Skinny 9.1.1.1
          5 October 2014 at 12:37 pm

          CV is correct axe that policy fullstop. The jobs are not there now and with technology the demand for workers will be further reduced. We need to move away from consumerism and become more focused on being self reliant. Just go to any mall and watch people loading up on debt by buying things that they don’t really need.

          • SPC 9.1.1.1.1
            5 October 2014 at 12:46 pm

            How does one afford and live with paying super to people who are still working age 65 to 67 while other people are in poverty? The number is about 33% of those age 65 to 67 and rising.

            These people, many in the top 10% income bracket, are getting more in tax paid super than poor families with no other means of support.

            • phillip ure 9.1.1.1.1.1
              5 October 2014 at 2:56 pm

              i think the ultimate example of this is mp’s..with their gold-plated pensions..

              ..still receiving state superannuation..

              ..surely that double-dipping cd be stopped at source..?

              ..that as part of that gold-plated super deal..

              ..they don’t also trough on state super..?

              ..is that an unreasonable request..?

            • Colonial Viper 9.1.1.1.1.2
              6 October 2014 at 2:04 am

              How does one afford and live with paying super to people who are still working age 65 to 67 while other people are in poverty? The number is about 33% of those age 65 to 67 and rising.

              WTF?

              “How does one afford and live with”???

              Where are you getting this awkward misdirected phrasing from? When you are referring to the NZ Government “affording” and “living with” paying super.

              Get serious and try and make a joined together argument eh? Let’s start with NZ Super being a universal entitlement, yeah?

        • Colonial Viper 9.1.1.2
          6 October 2014 at 2:01 am

          But for mine, the current surplus of labour is not caused by a proposal to increase the age for super in over a decades time.

          Dude, I never made such a back-asswards invalid point. Why would you even think this sentence you wrote had any basis?

          There are far too many unemployed and under-employed right now. Why put in place measures which will increase the surplus labour force even further, is my question. It’s dumb policy.

      • Richard 9.1.2
        5 October 2014 at 1:41 pm

        Frankly CV I never saw the need for a raising of the retirement either. My reasoning is dad died 65. Paid all that tax never even got to enjoy it(super).

        There’s a guy 70 still working at my work. But pays secondary tax. You can keep working if you want free choice. If anything, better early retirement choices would be a more attractive vote winner for those in hard manual labour who bodies don’t last the distance rather than go on SB or IB or ACC.

        Something like that would surely be a very attractive policy.

        As for the imminent baby boomer retirement. Is it going to be a THAT costly? What’s the figures? What other options do we have? Does returning more into the workforce help. If unemployment was 5-6 or less is there still an issue.

        If we start the Cullen fund up again does the interest help can it be used.

        Surely theirs a better option than scaring the 50+ crowd and me at 48.5

        • SPC 9.1.2.1
          5 October 2014 at 1:48 pm

          Should you be able to continue working AND get super?

          Dunne’s flexi-super allows early retirement but comes with a lifetime actuarial cap – meaning a lower rate of super for the rest of one’s life for doing this.

          Personally the only part of Dunne’s idea that I support, is enabling those sick and infirm (with health issues that limit life duration) stuck on a benefit to go onto super a little earlier (say from age 60, and for periods before then when people are terminally ill).

          • Richard 9.1.2.1.1
            5 October 2014 at 2:00 pm

            Good question SPC. Thinking about it… no??? But then no secondary tax. I mean I enjoy my job, I’d not want to be forced to retire, nor would I like to receive Super and a wage with a secondary high tax rate. I want to work my week and feel the satisfaction of seeing a healthy after tax income in my wage slip as a reward.

            However my back will never make it too 65 as employment rules around safety in the work place are a joke if you don’t live in the spotlight of a big city with employment inspectors.

            Have you been made aware of the massive drop in workplace ethics and worker safety since national got in.

          • phillip ure 9.1.2.1.2
            5 October 2014 at 2:59 pm

            @ spc..

            “..Personally the only part of Dunne’s idea that I support, is enabling those sick and infirm (with health issues that limit life duration) stuck on a benefit to go onto super a little earlier (say from age 60, and for periods before then when people are terminally ill)…”

            ..+ 1..

  10. SPC 10
    5 October 2014 at 11:23 am

    Policies and how Labour could have better communicated them.

    2. Kiwi Saver being compulsory.

    Labour has a plan to prevent mortgage costs from rising and improve export incomes.

    The government could use this “anti-inflationary” tool to hold down the OCR.

    Instead of people simply paying more of their wages to banks in mortgage interest cost they would be putting the money into their Kiwi Saver account – this money being available to them when they retired or a once a decade withdrawal to pay down their mortgage (and of course for those yet to own to withdraw to buy their first home).

    I would however withdraw the part about a variable rate as voters do/would not like the uncertainty of it. This is a component better left to consideration as policy for a following election.

  11. SPC 11
    5 October 2014 at 11:30 am

    New Policy.

    Before moving to flexible rate Kiwi Saver there should be a surcharge on mortgages.

    This option is one that Bollard floated late in his RB term as an alternative to raising the OCR (given the adverse impact on exporter incomes and jobs).

    A 1% surcharge on mortgages would allow the OCR to fall from 3.5 to 2.5%.

    At 3.5 the banks are lending at 6%.
    At 2.5 the banks are lending at 5%.

    Thus the mortgage holder pays 5% to the bank, instead of 6, and 1% to the government.

    This would by the way raise about $2B pa for the government in surcharge, as well as the higher tax revenues off higher exporter and wage incomes.

    • Colonial Viper 11.1
      5 October 2014 at 11:51 am

      Yep there are many smart, targeted mechanisms which could be used. A surcharge or stamp duty on mortgages/property transactions is one example.

    • Richard 11.2
      5 October 2014 at 11:58 am

      So another tax. Why not grow employment , or reduce unemployment as a strategy to help the government coffers.

      If the economy is running sweet most problems will disappear by themselves.

      • SPC 11.2.1
        5 October 2014 at 12:09 pm

        The more taxes the lower the rate of tax the better is the maxim for optimum tax policy. It’s the higher rates that create perverse incentives, avoidance etc.

        The surcharge, CGT and carbon tax allow lower tax rates.

        And they all improve economic performance.

        1. a lower OCR and dollar assists exporter returns and job growth.
        2. reduces the incentive to speculate, rather than invest
        3. a more sustainable economy

      • SPC 11.2.2
        5 October 2014 at 12:35 pm

        It’s a policy that’s purpose is to increase jobs.

        • Richard 11.2.2.1
          5 October 2014 at 12:57 pm

          Yeah it is SPC and the investment capital earned from it may help create more jobs , however the issue I have, and I’m trying to convey is to stop us pandering and promoting the perception the public have that we(Labour) just tax, tax, more tax, seriously I think we need to STFU on taxes, do what another said, once elected inform the people our intent and then throw it to referendum. Silence the naysayers.

          We need to stop allowing the misinformation to be justified.

          and most of all stop arming Key with debate lines of 5 headed monsters and look another tax.

          • Colonial Viper 11.2.2.1.1
            6 October 2014 at 1:56 am

            Get over it mate. Key raised more taxes, levies and fees than Labour proposed. Starting with GST, if you recall.

            Taxes allow government to direct and rebalance the economy, sometimes without having to even bring in a single dollar from the tax.

            Make the fucking case in other words, don’t buy into the right wing framing and back off.

            • Richard 11.2.2.1.1.1
              6 October 2014 at 6:33 am

              Hmmm, CV the ammo and look when he(Key in debates) said 5 new taxes.

              Remember that. I hear what your saying, but it’s all about perception isn’t it. If your serious about labour winning, and against shifty key we’d better start thinking smarter.

              Everything in moderation.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                6 October 2014 at 6:50 am

                The problem we have is that people have been taught that taxes are a negative rather than the positive that they are. We call tax cuts tax relief which is really a load of bollocks because it usually makes life worse for the many. Of course, the rich do well out of it as they a) get more income from doing nothing more and b) put prices up to shift that extra money in peoples pockets into their own.

                People are always better off paying taxes than they are not paying taxes.

                • Richard …
                  6 October 2014 at 7:00 am

                  Again this is due to the media not explaining things, or the party not producing the counter arguments to dispel the stereotyping.

                  In a normal democracy with a broader media that compliments both sides it would be fine, But here in NZ we have to admit we are playing with a marked deck and need to sharpen up.

                  I’m not saying your wrong at all, I’m saying we have difficulty getting it over too the voters.

    • bearded git 11.3
      5 October 2014 at 12:00 pm

      I think Labour should scrap cgt, scrap the 67 pension age (though convene parliament wide body to discuss the pension age) and go for a Mansion Tax per Labour in the UK, of say 1% on houses $750k to $1m and 2% on houses worth more than a $1m with no exceptions (or some variation on this) while raising the top rate of tax above $130k to 39%.

      These would be relatively simple to administer, hit the right people and put a lid on house prices and raise revenue.

  12. Jenny 12
    5 October 2014 at 11:46 am

    One of the main arguments marshalled by those who wish to change the flag is that, at a distance, it is too easily mistaken for the Australian flag.

    It could be worse:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10580871/Silver-Fern-compared-to-terror-group-flag

    At least our troops will be less likely to be shelled by the Americans if they only mistake us for Australians.

    • Colonial Viper 12.1
      5 October 2014 at 11:53 am

      well the record shows that neither Australian nor UK troops (or American troops for that matter) are particularly safe from US fire…

      • Richard 12.1.1
        5 October 2014 at 12:10 pm

        Certainly true that. As when I play Battlefield 3 the yanks always mistake my little tank for a bloody Russians. /humour 🙂

  13. greywarbler 13
    5 October 2014 at 11:59 am

    Good on Radionz Wallace Chapman this a.m.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday

    Halfway through his interview with Michael Katakis I heard something about an interview arrangement he had with Kim Hill having been cancelled on the basis that there had been too many left leaning USA intellectuals on already! Interesting – I think that is what I heard. If what I have repeated is true then that is alarming.

    11:05 Michael Katakis – Traveller
    Michael Katakis has been photographing and writing about different cultures for the past 35 years. His work has been celebrated by the Royal Geographical Society, The Smithsonian Institute and the National Portrait Gallery in Washington, to name just a few. He is also the literary manager of Ernest Hemingway’s intellectual estate. He joins Wallace to talk about his books, A Thousand Shards of Glass – which is a personal farewell to America and his wife; and Traveller, which is a collection of letters and journal entries that reflect on his own past.

    For those with questions about what philosophy we should live by (think song – Teach your children well) the interview with Sam Harris, an atheist has something to say.
    10:20 Sam Harris – Devoted to Reason
    One of the world’s most well-known atheists, Sam Harris is the author of the bestselling books The End of Faith and The Moral Landscape. Dr Harris is cofounder and CEO of Project Reason, a nonprofit foundation devoted to spreading scientific knowledge and secular values in society. He received a degree in philosophy from Stanford University and a PhD in neuroscience from UCLA. He joins Wallace to talk about his latest book Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion where they discuss mindfulness, drugs, critics and, of course, religion.

    And NZ Peter Williams QC aged 80, talking about his work with many murderers and prison reform, and author of new book called The Dwarf that Moved?
    It’s one of the stories in the book, about a dwarf in an Auckland circus whose wife was committing adultery with another guy in the circus. They had a sharp-shooting booth where she would shoot something out of the dwarf’s mouth and she hits him one day and is charged with attempted murder.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11217263

    11:30 Peter Williams – Life in the Law
    Peter Williams QC is a well-known name and face to New Zealanders. One of our greatest barristers, Peter Williams has defended some of New Zealand’s most infamous criminal cases, including: Terry Clark (Mr. Asia) and Arthur Allan Thomas. He has been a constant advocate for change in the penal system and has campaigned to rehabilitate prisoners, rather than imprisoning them. He joins Wallace on Sunday Morning to talk about some of his more notorious cases and his life spent working in the law.

    • Richard 13.1
      5 October 2014 at 12:36 pm

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/20152188/current-affairs

      link to the audio Greywarbler.

      Very, very interesting. Blimmin heck Dunne sounds out of place with National.

      Took notes people should listen to the interview.

      Winner Dunne. Jamie trying to defend the indefensible and frankly Dunne took him to task.

      rma

      Jamie

      Wants greening of act, more emphasis on equality the people of nz have spoken their concerns for growing inequality. Dunne showed him up n one hand he wants Act more green like but same time want dismantling of RMA. Dunne states prior to RMA there was 54 laws it was Kos Jamie want a return to kaos basically.

      Dunne will not support RMA changes at all. Stated, steadfast.

      Charter schools

      Dunne Will not support them they are a joke
      Spoke examples of private partnerships, not trained teachers , franky it sound a joke these charter schools

      Jamie lies and tells Wallace his facts from Stanford research are wrong when Wallace had them in front of him. Silly boy.

      All in All Dunnes more left than I had thought, Jamie is very dangerous as he is following an agenda without reasoned thought.

      • greywarbler 13.1.1
        5 October 2014 at 1:00 pm

        @ Richard
        All in All Dunnes more left than I had thought, Jamie is very dangerous as he is following an agenda without reasoned thought.
        I think Dunne will follow that old saying about running with the fox and hunting with the hounds.
        Somewhere in the middle he might make a useful stand to act as some solace for those who wanted him out.
        Don’t be so sure about Jamie Whyte and reasoned thought. That is like looking at a mirror from different standpoints. Same mirror, different views.
        Some good reporting today.

  14. John 14
    5 October 2014 at 12:04 pm

    The AB’s have gone down. Shoulda kept John Key away from the jersey.

  15. Draco T Bastard 15
    5 October 2014 at 12:06 pm

    The Kink in the Human Brain

    If the news that in the past 40 years the world has lost over 50% its vertebrate wildlife (mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians and fish) fails to tell us that there is something wrong with the way we live, it’s hard to imagine what could. Who believes that a social and economic system which has this effect is a healthy one? Who, contemplating this loss, could call it progress?

    We need a better economic system because the one we have is uneconomic.

  16. b waghorn 16
    5 October 2014 at 12:16 pm

    @odesseus I just watched little s interview and thought he came across well It maid me wish the labour office had of sorted its shit so I could of joined in time to vote.

  17. greywarbler 17
    5 October 2014 at 12:54 pm

    I couldn’t remember the leadership timeline. For those like me – this is our link.

    Labour announces leadership election details


    Nominations close on Tuesday, 14 October. After which there are meetings around the rohe.

  18. Pat O'Dea 18
    5 October 2014 at 3:23 pm

    Tracy Watkins puts her 2 cents in.

    “In the old days he would have been gone already”
    Tracy Watkin

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/10546182/Cunliffes-exit-is-assured-but-by-which-route

    According columnist Tracy Watkins.
    In the old days Douglas would have sacked Lange.

    Wishful thinking by a rightwing journo with her own agenda?

    You decide:

    David Cunliffe’s resignation from the Labour leadership is certain. It is only the manner of his going that is yet to be decided.

    In the old days he would have been gone already.

    Tuesday’s brutalising caucus was a coup in all but name. It showed Cunliffe no longer has any authority over his caucus, who can outvote him at will. They already have, over his choice of Whip.

    A leader who can’t control his caucus or win a vote cannot credibly front National as the Leader of the Opposition. But under Labour’s rules a coup is no longer a simple numbers game in the caucus.

    If it were, Cunliffe’s rival Grant Robertson would already be leader.

    He has had the numbers to roll Cunliffe for more than a year.

    But that is not enough.

    Robertson’s supporters could force a vote of no confidence in Cunliffe, but that effectively puts the decision in the hands of the wider party and Labour’s union affiliates. In a vote, they could decide to re-install Cunliffe over a hostile caucus. They did so the last time the leadership was put to the vote, a year ago.

    Whether they would do so again after the chaotic scenes of recent days remains to be seen. Camp Cunliffe are convinced they would…..

    “Cunliffe’s exit is assured” Tracy Watkins
    stuff.co.nz September 5, 2014

    Maybe not.

    • karol 18.1
      5 October 2014 at 5:46 pm

      That’s Tracy Watkins fer ya. It’s dated Sep 26 – I did wonder as Sept 5 was before the election.

    • Colonial Viper 18.2
      5 October 2014 at 6:00 pm

      Grant Robertson and his crew have never accepted for even one day, the decision of the members and affiliates that Cunliffe should be leader.

    • Draco T Bastard 18.3
      5 October 2014 at 8:47 pm

      He has had the numbers to roll Cunliffe for more than a year.

      No he hasn’t else Robertson would have been leader a year ago when Shearer resigned and Cunliffe became leader. Of course, what Watkins is really saying here is: If it wasn’t for those dratted members and unions we’d have a sensible Labour Party that would hold to the status quo.

      Basically, more authoritarian BS from our MSM that holds that the public should just leave the decisions to the government and not get engaged in the actual decision making.

  19. Draco T Bastard 19
    5 October 2014 at 3:27 pm

    Primer for the Goldman Sachs secret tapes

    THE FEDERAL Reserve Bank of New York is responsible for regulating the nation’s biggest banks. But new secret audio tapes indicate the banks — not the Fed — are in charge. Congress can keep making the rules tougher and tougher, but it won’t make an ounce of difference if the regulators won’t enforce those rules. Below is a primer to explain what’s going on.

    It is time to end the Reign of the Banks.

    • yeshe 19.1
      5 October 2014 at 7:28 pm

      DTB .. and let’s remember Goldman Sachs absorbed Merrill Lynch thus Key’s fortune rests in Goldman Sachs shares … nothing more needs be said, sadly …

    • greywarbler 19.2
      5 October 2014 at 9:14 pm

      @ DTB 19
      Joe 90 and I put up comments on 27/9 which may extend background on this Federal Reserve Bank regulatory farce.

      Open mike 27/09/2014

  20. fisiani 20
    5 October 2014 at 4:09 pm

    Andrew Little might not be a stellar performer but at least he will not be disliked or pitied. He would be a safe pair of hands to bring about the needed changes and remember that under MMP he only has to raise Labour to where it was when Shearer was deposed in order to possibly win in 2017. Andrew Little is better than Shearer and could win votes from the Greens and win back the Labour voters who opted for the safety of National in 2014.

  21. logie97 21
    5 October 2014 at 5:28 pm

    Public Broadcasting impartiality
    Back in 2003 “Trougher Hide” led a tirade against Brian Edwards and had him successfully removed from current affairs. Apparently on the basis of Edwards political leanings and questionable “impartiality”.

    Wonder how Hide views Hosking’s role in meeting Public Broadcasting standards?

  22. Colonial Viper 22
    5 October 2014 at 5:46 pm

    An incredible, innovative, musical protest for Mike Brown

    Brown was the young black man killed without legal reason, by a white police officer in Ferguson, St Louis County.

  23. weka 23
    5 October 2014 at 6:22 pm

    why do we let these people have power?

    A promo video from Pinkroccade, a prominent IT contractor to Dutch local governments, makes the case for spying on wearables (if your heart-rate rises because you’re about to be mugged, the police could be alerted, and get GPS from your phone, find nearby phones belonging to people with criminal records, check the view from your Google Glass, and respond — case closed); following outrage from the press, the company doubled down on its video, saying it was not meant to be interpreted by lay people and that you have to be an expert to understand why it isn’t creepy as all fuck.

    http://boingboing.net/2014/10/04/dutch-it-contractor-lays-out-t.html

  24. halfcrown 24
    5 October 2014 at 6:56 pm

    On tonights news I see there is a major fire in a substation in Auckland.

    Funny that, I thought, that would have not happened in the bad bad bad days of NZCED when we ALL owned the infrastructure of New Zealand. Myers reminded us of these “terrible” days on Q&A this morning
    My second thought was, Why did it happen? Was it because we had a cost reducing profit maximizing lack of maintenance or, incompetent subcontractors with the lowest bid got the job.
    My third thought was
    One of the suburbs that was really affected was EPSOM. Ha Ha fucking Ha perhaps Rimmer along with Kryton can come and fix it for them.

  25. fisiani 25
    5 October 2014 at 9:41 pm

    Wanna make some money . Go on Ipredict and pick the Labour leader. Arbitrage to your heart’s content.

  26. Cave Johnson 26
    5 October 2014 at 10:21 pm

    Just read Chris Trotter’s Sept 30th discussion about renewal of NZLP. The key suggestion seemed to be to turn the party list over to member voting, as done by the Greens. Party list selection by members is a great idea, but it would have much less impact for NZLP than it does for GPANZ.
    .
    The current NZLP electorate candidate process is also interesting. I think involves 3 votes from head office and 2 from local organisation. So centralised control could be exerted to enforce electorate candidate renewal, but that might be very messy and simply lead to a call for less head office power.
    .
    The Labour trend is clearly away from centralised control. As Trotter points out, the Nats are much more comfortable with that idea.
    .
    The rules are here http://www.elections.org.nz/sites/default/files/parties/rules/Labour%20Party%20Constitution%20and%20Rules.pdf
    .
    The org review from 2012 also makes interesting reading for those who are calling for yet another org review. https://www.labour.org.nz/sites/default/files/Labour%20Review%20Discussion%20Paper.pdf

  27. Murray Olsen 27
    6 October 2014 at 1:06 am

    When parliaments were first formed, only the rich could afford to be MPs. The answer to this was supposedly to pay them a salary. This obviously hasn’t worked, because the people we have in parliament are somewhere between comfortably well off and super rich. As well as what they can make if they indulge in insider trading with their blind trusts, cough cough, they get paid far more than most Kiwis can even dream about. Maybe they should be paid something like the unemployment benefit rate, with allowances for travel etc? I’m sure that would keep heaps of the troughers we have at the moment out of the Beehive.

    And also: Glory glory to South Sydney. The two teams I hope never win the NRL competition again are Manly (Abbott and his ilk live there) and the Broncos (donate to the LNP campaign in Queensland). After seeing Russell Crowe get a championship ring made for Isaac Luke, I think there might be some truth to the rumours that he is part Kiwi.

    Lenin wrote somewhere that the left should be involved where the working masses are. For me, that’s not a challenge at all, because I love Rugby League. The Kiwis would never make John Key captain.

    • greywarbler 27.1
      6 October 2014 at 10:08 am

      Murray 0 1/06 am
      Low wages for MPs would result in a moral hazard whereby they would be vulnerable to brown envelopes and baubles, and trips to resorts for their family, an apartment on the Gold Coast etc………..

      Limited terms would be the deal and applying to all of them there pollies from top to bottom. Putin seems adept at the merry go round, but some sort of limitation would stop too many from digging themselves a fur lined cave for the duration.

      I understand they have these in the USA, fur lined cars, or caves I mean. And someone who has early onset bigotry and calcification of the brain can stay in power probably with pay offs and because they look like daddy, so they can’t be winkled out. Probably in the end it seems uncharitable to such an old soldier to give him the push so they get a sympathy vote. That’s not democracy at work. That’s good ol’boys getting a rort.

      • Murray Olsen 27.1.1
        6 October 2014 at 7:02 pm

        High salaries just make the moral hazards more costly. I remember when the first ACT government vastly increased judges’ salaries, saying they would be vulnerable to bribery at the then current rate. I found it funny that judges had to be bribed to be honest.

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