Open mike 06/08/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 6th, 2020 - 212 comments
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212 comments on “Open mike 06/08/2020 ”

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  1. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1
    6 August 2020 at 6:16 am

    Just heard on the 6am news there’s a push for privately managed isolation facilities.

    OMG, are we impervious to lessons from Victoria? Do we really want a clusterfuck like Melbourne here?

    The government may not be perfect in its management of quarantine, but if a problem arises they can throw money at it. A private firm will inevitably cut corners to make more profit.

    Keep capitalism far away from our boarder protection management – please!

    • Robert Guyton 1.1
      6 August 2020 at 6:25 am

      SERCO – they've got form!

      • Tricledrown 1.1.1
        6 August 2020 at 10:02 am

        We need a quarantine island so people can't escape

        • McFlock 1.1.1.1
          6 August 2020 at 2:42 pm

          Dunedin has an island literally named "quarantine island". Most harbours with islands plonked quarantine facilities on one of them.

          It was one of those things that was routine before antibiotics and vaccines.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 1.2
      6 August 2020 at 7:22 am

      Yep, the richies want to be in charge / making profit while the rest of us take all the risks and get "jobs jobs jobs" (at minimum wage, zero-hours, no security and be grateful for it you miserable peasants)

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/422856/covid-19-business-leaders-push-for-privately-run-managed-isolation

      • RedBaronCV 1.2.1
        6 August 2020 at 10:39 am

        So they want to bring in their rich mates supposedly to fix the economy? Well after 30 odd years of this stuff the bulk of the population could barely fund themselves for a 4 week stay at home – so as far as I am concerned its a failed idea and they can get stuffed. Just like private quarantine is a failed idea.

        Why does the news media give so much time to just 20 people – when they are like this one.Deplatform them. Why on earth did he get one of the quarantine spaces after not bothering to be here for 2 decades.

        Among them was Pooj Prenna, who recently returned to New Zealand with his family, after 20 years overseas.

        And why does Helen Clark continue to want to be associated with these people. She's starting to look like Tony Blair- can't some one have a word with her.

        • RedBaronCV 1.2.1.1
          6 August 2020 at 10:53 am

          And Prenna after 20 years out of the country and not bothering he comes back and gets an invitation to the forum and starts to tell the rest of us what to do. Well lets tax him on his worldwide interests. (appears to be a silicon valley capitalist)

        • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.2
          6 August 2020 at 11:41 am

          Why does the news media give so much time to just 20 people

          Because they're rich.

          And why does Helen Clark continue to want to be associated with these people.

          She may have been principled when she opposed the purchase of the Airforce strike fighters but since then she's been in government where had to collude with business to get anything done. Basically, she's drunk the cool-aid that its business that does things and not government.

          • RedBaronCV 1.2.1.2.1
            6 August 2020 at 12:03 pm

            Yeah I get the rich bit – but there's more of us than them and we are the one's that are gunna vote. And since the rich have done little for the masses these last 30 years we certainly aren't going to be much poorer if we ignore them now or preferably charge them some real high taxes.

            And ignore them we should.

            Actually the taxes should be the push back. All reporters should ask these over entitled bods if they are willing to stump up more in taxes.

            And as I say regardless of how much kool aid Helen has drunk she needs to stop making the life of the current labour party more difficult. She is being used by these righties as cover for the hard right agenda behind their views.

        • Patricia Bremner 1.2.1.3
          6 August 2020 at 1:23 pm

          So Key and co would like to make money out of isolation and quarantine? (Never waste a crisis..Right!!)

          Where is their billion dollars each insurance against failure?(No insurance against a pandemic usually, and we don't want Private collection of Profits and Public paying for failures)

          Which hospitals will be used if and when they let the virus in? Private?/Public???

          Would they charge people to use their hospitals?

          Whose country do they plan to poach Doctors and Nurses from?

          Where will they obtain their testing kits PPE and general staff?

          We see you John Key.. You go plank.

    • tc 1.3
      6 August 2020 at 7:31 am

      Never waste a crises, there's profits to be had with no downside. Risk is all on us !

      • halfcrown 1.3.1
        6 August 2020 at 10:36 am

        Yeah, agree with that 100%. I have never ever heard so much fucking winging by the right since this virus thing has started. The so-called rugged everybody stands on their own two feet, no such thing as a free lunch no passengers in this world etc etc etc right are there for assistance and handouts until you want to fucking vomit. Every time I hear the news there is some other right-wing prat winging how hard done by they are, and how MUCH better they can do it, or what a stuff up this administration has caused.

        The next catch cry is going to be Private Enterprise can do everything SOOOOOO much better than governments and controlling the quarantine is just another one of them. Well if this administration buckles and allows private enterprise to run it. there have to be some strict ground rules. For starters, if any person breaks out of a privately run quarantine, the company running the isolation is instantly fined $100 000 to cover the cost of the police having to apprehend the offender and also creating the risk of spreading the virus in the community.

        • RedBaronCV 1.3.1.1
          6 August 2020 at 10:45 am

          No private quarantine would be one election platform I'd really like. I'd be furious if they buckled – this is an opportunity to do things so much better for all the rest of us.If there had to be a punishment then I'd have the personal guarantees of all this crowd – any breach they get slung out off the country.

          I'd like to think the government is testing public opinion regularly.

        • satty 1.3.1.2
          6 August 2020 at 11:30 am

          I consider $100,000 a very low and therefore "unsuitable fine", because the private company would include this into the costs running the operation.

          How about every "business leader", including ex-PM Helen Clark, John Key, that wants to open the borders or a private organisation running the quarantine for economical gains put their bodies where their big mouth is (see newspaper, radio TV etc.)… for each "escape" at least one year prison for the glorious business leaders in case of non-infection, increased to at least five years in case of causing community transmission?

          Would be interesting to see how many would still promoting it.

          Just saw this article (NZ Herald):

          Covid 19 coronavirus: Travellers would not escape quarantine under National, Judith Collins says

          …

          People would not be escaping quarantine and managed isolation if National was in charge, leader Judith Collins says.

          Collins said on Newstalk ZB this morning she had "zero tolerance" for coronavirus, and that Covid-19 "simply would not be allowed in" under her party's watch.

          I guess they have snipers shooting escapees? Or National party members patrolling around the facilities.

          Oh, and the virus definitely doesn't care about Judith Collins.

          • dv 1.3.1.2.1
            6 August 2020 at 11:37 am

            Geez Nobody escapes when judith is in charge!!

            Remember when she was in charge of prisons.

          • Draco T Bastard 1.3.1.2.2
            6 August 2020 at 11:45 am

            Thing is, as soon as someone did escape, Collins would be spouting excuses left, right and centre for the private enterprise that did a worse job.

          • RedBaronCV 1.3.1.2.3
            6 August 2020 at 12:19 pm

            Is she going to chain them to the walls?

            Before or after turning central wellington into a motorway?

            There's a quiet revolution going on out here. Time for some of these peeps to get with the plot.

            • Just Is 1.3.1.2.3.1
              6 August 2020 at 1:45 pm

              You know the only reason Collins wants to spend up large on Wellingtons roads was because of the traffic congestion which made her late for a hair appointment.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.3.1.2.3.2
              6 August 2020 at 2:46 pm

              Time for some of these peeps to get with the plot.

              Actually, I'm quite happy for them to not get the plot and the longer the better. That way they continue to prove that they're last centuries problems just trying to hang on to being relevant and, most importantly, not a solution to today's issues.

          • halfcrown 1.3.1.2.4
            6 August 2020 at 1:35 pm

            Answer to satty @1.3.1.2

            Very good idea satty, but I prefer my idea otherwise it will cost us money keeping the parasites in prison unless part of their sentence is that they pay for their own jail time. Good idea though.

      • Patricia Bremner 1.3.2
        6 August 2020 at 1:24 pm

        So right 1000%

    • Matiri 1.4
      6 August 2020 at 8:31 am

      …. and put all the returning kiwis in Jucy vans to free up the best hotels for wealthy tourists and students – and the spokesperson for this idea is the Jucy owner.

      [Fixed error in user name]

    • Stuart Munro 1.5
      6 August 2020 at 9:00 am

      MPs, insulated from the failures of neoliberalism by comfortable remuneration, are able to imagine it is something other than an abject failure.

    • roblogic 1.6
      6 August 2020 at 9:39 am

      Privately run managed isolation… you mean like quarantining people in private hotels and paying them to manage the day to day issues? Huh, we should have thought of that sooner. /sarcasm

      (from @yortw)

    • Gabby 1.7
      6 August 2020 at 10:32 am

      Has Helen offered her rentals as isolation facilities?

      • Kevin 1.7.1
        6 August 2020 at 11:31 am

        Why don't you ask her?

      • Chris 1.7.2
        6 August 2020 at 2:21 pm

        Of course not. She wants a mixture of containers and tents on Sommes Island run jointly by SERCO and MSD and to be able to shoot those who get too sick then bury them in the harbour. One of the most clear-thinking, strategic and pragmatic leaders we’ve ever had.

    • Graeme 1.8
      6 August 2020 at 10:44 am

      Right o…..

      So the people behind this are the Alpe’s, that’s Jucy. They are most likely in the crap right now.
      Key was prompting this a few days ago, wearing which hat, ANZ chair, or his personal interest.

      A few questions need to be asked about what’s going on here, and who’s interests are being prompted. It’s looking like a select few before the wider New Zealand

      • Draco T Bastard 1.8.1
        6 August 2020 at 11:48 am

        It’s looking like a select few before the wider New Zealand

        It is. To manage the population the capitalists need to manage what information that the population is getting and that's the job for the privately owned MSM.

      • Robert Guyton 1.8.2
        6 August 2020 at 3:23 pm

        "

        "Why don't we let in rich Americans who want to build a house in New Zealand? Who cares? They're in Mangawhai or somewhere, they are going to create thousands of jobs.

        "Why do we care if someone who lives in New York wants to spend $10 million building a house in Auckland, using NZ craftsmen and NZ tradespeople?"

        Why do we care if rich Americans put even more pressure on our recourses using scarce tradespeople to build houses that will likely sit empty? Good god John Key is so stupid! It’s no wonder the housing problem became a crisis under his watch. The man is so blinded by his own self-interest that he simply cannot see the bigger picture."

        http://thejackalman.blogspot.com/2020/08/key-is-fool.html

        • roblogic 1.8.2.1
          6 August 2020 at 4:02 pm

          John Key is so full of it. Why would they create thousands of jobs?

          I think you'll find that by "houses" Key means "castles" and by "jobs" he means "serfdom". All that mountainous Central Otago landscape isn't going to plough and plant itself with wheat now is it ? — @brettroberts

          Someone went to the trouble of actually working out the numbers that Key and pals couldn’t be bothered with. Guess what, it doesn’t add up

          https://twitter.com/clintvsmith/status/1291132437460742144?s=21

    • Draco T Bastard 1.9
      6 August 2020 at 11:36 am

      OMG, are we impervious to lessons from Victoria? Do we really want a clusterfuck like Melbourne here?

      The capitalists want in of the money that the government is spending and, considering that it is a necessary service, they'll be able to low bid to get the job and then ramp up the expenses to make a higher profit.

      • roblogic 1.9.1
        6 August 2020 at 12:02 pm

        Vulture capitalists always have an eye for a bargain. An old person falling over is an opportunity to nick their wallet while they are distracted.

        An economy on the rocks means it’s time to steal privatise assets at fire sale prices

      • greywarshark 1.9.2
        6 August 2020 at 2:54 pm

        How do you get share in Serco, how much each? Or Black hawk done or whatever predator is around when people get shut away for a time.

        Roblogic sees things so clearly that it must be through the eyes of a child. Better get sunglasses for protection robl…

        • roblogic 1.9.2.1
          6 August 2020 at 4:10 pm

          “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.“ Mt 10:16

    • Pat 1.10
      6 August 2020 at 1:27 pm

      Think this needs to be viewed in the context of NZs primary economic strategy which exists across parties (and may explain the involvement of the likes of Key and Clark, strange bedfellows indeed)…..growth via population.

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    6 August 2020 at 6:25 am

    He's being provocative, but does pose an interesting question: "what sort of Green Party does a Labour majority Government want?"

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2020/08/05/what-green-party-does-a-labour-majority-government-want/

    Watching Weka scramble around on the Standard trying to beg left wing voters to vote Greens is glorious isn’t it? It’s like Green activists spend 3 years alienating the electorate and then realise months before the election that their woke middle class identity politics virtue signalling hasn’t won them any friends. Surprise, surprise.

    Unfair to blame Weka for the Greens seeming woke. Censoring an 80 year old feminist because the alphabet soup tribe claimed she hurt their feelings was a collective idiocy, for which they are still evading moral responsibility. Given enough rope, the Green leftists used it to hang themselves, using the old rationale `if we don't hang together, we'll hang separately. Their belief system did them in – can't blame individuals.

    If Labour don’t win an outright majority, the Green negotiating team will need to prioritise the policy they want passed in the first 100 days so they can show voters meaningful change and don’t end up in the same position of barely getting over 5% they are in now. That would require the kind of strategic forward thinking the Greens haven’t managed to show over the last 3 years.

    This notion of Bomber’s that any group of leftists are innately capable of strategic thinking seems suspiciously like blind faith. I haven't seen leftists in Aotearoa do it ever, and I've been watching them since the late 1960s.

    • I Feel Love 2.1
      6 August 2020 at 6:57 am

      Fuck Bomber, I'm ex Mana ex Māori Party ex Alliance voting Greens (I did last election too). People like him, Tau Henare, NZ1st & the rabid RWs fearmongering over the Greens just strengthens my resolve.

      • weka 2.1.1
        6 August 2020 at 10:03 am

        Right there with you on that. (although I've always voted Green the sentiment is the same).

        • Cinny 2.1.1.1
          6 August 2020 at 1:36 pm

          I'll be giving my party vote to the Greens this election because I want them to be part of the government. Red and Green like Christmas heart

          • Shanreagh 2.1.1.1.1
            6 August 2020 at 4:38 pm

            Me too! And I hope that the Labour part of the coalition is nudged along by some of the Greens policies, in an 'aiming for the moon but might it hit a star' way as part of a consensus….but always the direction is forward.

      • greywarshark 2.1.2
        6 August 2020 at 10:26 am

        All Parties in NZ have to be poked with a stick to stick to their supposed goal of doing the best for NZ. I've voted Greens for yonks and mixed with good people, but many tend to be loving of the environment, and looking at people as if they have invaded Eden.

        The problem with such lefties is the tendency to spout high-minded stuff about green matters, and follow the latest thought on how to be, but all having different ideas about how those thoughts should be infused in real-life practices. More discussion needed to be done about how, and how practically to reach the established and tabled goals, and just how many ethical barriers should be included or put aside as being too precious. It may be that there is a more pragmatic and robust side to the Greens with Shaw, I hope so.

      • JohnSelway 2.1.3
        6 August 2020 at 11:38 am

        Bomber is a jackass. So removed from any relevancy he used to have back in the late 1990's and early 2000's as to become more a sideshow than anything serious

        • weka 2.1.3.1
          6 August 2020 at 1:51 pm

          He runs one of the two largest left wing blogs in NZ.

          • The Al1en 2.1.3.1.1
            6 August 2020 at 1:54 pm

            A pre moderated blog that lets misogynist comments through from idiots who aren't allowed to post here anymore. Not a great claim to fame for a left leaning blog.

            • weka 2.1.3.1.1.1
              6 August 2020 at 2:19 pm

              they have a wide range of writers, some of whom are covering really important stuff.

              • The Al1en …
                6 August 2020 at 2:25 pm

                And despite all that really important stuff from a wide range of writers, the true worth of the site is laid bare by what’s permitted under the topics in the comments.

                • weka …
                  6 August 2020 at 2:34 pm

                  it may surprise you that many blogs are written for readers not commenters. I don't like the commenting policy there either, but plenty of people don't like TS' policy 😉

                  • The Al1en …
                    6 August 2020 at 5:10 pm

                    It doesn't surprise me, why would it? I know the purpose of blogs/media/social pretentiousness etc, yet I still think the moderators allowing posts through underneath topics, like calling you "a bitch", for example, doesn't leave TDB with much left wing credibility, unless you think those readers you're talking about don't view the comments, or it doesn't matter if they do.

                    If I authored topics there, I'd be pretty vocal about what the moderators are happy to pass under Bradbury's posts. I'd be wondering if they really had a left wing core underneath the important stuff if they let shit like that pass. Maybe some of them will write something and show some lefty credentials.

                    • weka …
                      6 August 2020 at 5:12 pm

                      most readers don't read the comments.

                      I have zero interesting in a slanging match with TDB. Plenty of problems on TS around issues for women btw, if you want to dig into that.

                    • The Al1en …
                      6 August 2020 at 5:21 pm

                      Next time someone uses the bitch word here I'll be all over it, but I'm not sure if most people don't read the comments, and definitely not convinced that would be enough of an excuse to permit that sort of crap anyway.

                      Regardless, an interesting editorial position from someone running one of the leading left wing blogs in NZ.

          • JohnSelway 2.1.3.1.2
            6 August 2020 at 2:04 pm

            Yeah he used to have TV shows, be on panels etc etc.

            Now he just runs an echo chamber of a blog.

        • greywarshark 2.1.3.2
          6 August 2020 at 2:59 pm

          I think you might put it more like this John S, that Bomber keeps looking and thinking and remembering that we have come right through the 20th century and mucked it up. He has had to change from what was thought relevant then. Perhaps it is you who are trailing behind in a cloud of exhaust and nostalgia. There is no blame on you if you are as many of us have that problem. But it has to be overcome, so keep those cogs whirring.

    • tc 2.2
      6 August 2020 at 7:36 am

      More mischief making from a media flogging their narrative.

      My how fearful some are of the potential for significant change.

    • Incognito 2.3
      6 August 2020 at 7:55 am

      Who’s the “80 year old feminist” and who “censored” her? Who makes up this BS?

      • James Thrace 2.3.1
        6 August 2020 at 8:04 am

        Jill Abigail wrote this

        The transie crowd then went ahead and cancelled Jill because their feelings got hurt

        As a gay man I have no time for the transie crowd calling me tranphobic because I don't see transmen as men. They're not. And for them to try and force me to see them as men, is outright homophobic.

        http://www.google.com/amp/s/lesbian-rights-nz.org/2019/09/02/the-feminist-article-the-green-party-has-banned/amp/

        • I Feel Love 2.3.1.1
          6 August 2020 at 8:41 am

          Do you care that much if someone wants to be called "man" "woman" or whatever? As a straight man I couldn't care less what people want to be called.

          • James Thrace 2.3.1.1.1
            6 August 2020 at 9:46 am

            That's likely why your viewpoint differs to mine.

            I'm gay because that's what nature decreed. I have no sexual attraction to women. It's very much 100% toward men. A man has a penis. Transmen do not. They may have an imitation penis but at the end of the day, they are still biologically female. All the testosterone pills in the world will not change that fundamental fact of science.

            To have transmen decry me as transphobic because I have no sexual attraction to them makes them homophobic by denying my reality. Transmen (and transwomen) are not men or women and shouldn't be so quick to lambast homosexuals because we have no sexual attraction toward them. That's homophobic and denies our biochemical response. I have met transmen, and there's an innate reaction to them and recognition that they're actually female, and not truly male. Pheromones make all the difference.

            Trans people can feel who they are, but their current MO of criticising homosexuals as transphobic because we are same sex attracted, is why there is such antipathy in a large section of the gay community towards trans activists. It does appear that the worst activists are straight men who would never themselves, sleep with a transwoman because again, heterosexuality has an element of sexual attraction. A straight man can't have a family with a transwoman unless it's an adopted family. I've never had a definitive answer from any straight male activist as to whether they would sleep with a transwomen, yet some of them have said they would sleep with a transman which just goes to show that if there's a vagina, and not a penis, a straight man really is sexually attracted to the female genitalia, rather than male.

            The argument is far more nuanced than the simplistic "transwomen are women" or "transmen are men" argument that is constantly peddled. Of course you can't really have a good discussion about it and explain your viewpoint without activists generally leaping straight to "you're transphobic" rather than appreciate that it's far more complex than they appreciate.

            I have a transexual aunty, and I also have transgender friends. I have no problem with them. I do have a problem with activists ignoring the fact that homosexuality is "same sex" and not "same gender" attraction, by and large.

            • weka 2.3.1.1.1.1
              6 August 2020 at 9:55 am

              that's a really good explanation of that side of it thanks.

              I'll add that the terms 'woman' and 'man' get used differently by different people. Here you clearly use them to mean biological sex. Sometimes people use the terms to mean gender/roles rather than bio sex.

              (yep, that's a whole can of worms, just wanted to bring it into the discussion because it's such a sticking point and point of people talking past each other).

              • Nic the NZer …
                6 August 2020 at 1:28 pm

                The two separate meanings present a massive impediment to public debate. Unfortunately the debating tactic of claiming that, the alternate positions use of the terms imposes unacceptable context on the discussion, is common.

                Frequently this extends as far a claiming a biological (scientific) understanding is anti-trans (or in other contexts sexist, racist etc…).

                But the only likely outcome when this happens is both sides will talk past each other because their terms are mutually incompatible. Usually this just insulates the two arguments from each other rather than leading to allowing a challenge to either sides positions.

                In order to understand how this came about it may be important to consider that post-modern philosophical underpinnings of many of these radical ideas reject both logic and a scientific understanding of the world and instead begin by claiming reality is constructed by some form of widely shared beliefs (also called a social construct). Were this true then it does follow that somebody could/can change sex by imagining it to be so and convincing sufficient others to believe it so.

                • weka …
                  6 August 2020 at 2:18 pm

                  My observation is that both sides of the war have weaponised semantics, as you say they each use the words their own way when speaking to each other* and as well as making useful communication possible it creates a lot of aggro.

                  I understand why each side has done that, and the issues are actually complex beneath the semantics, but it's hard to see how any progress can be made while this continues (and I think it will).

                  *as well as to everyone else, so people coming to the debate fresh end up completely confused. Also, society has historically used the term gender and sex interchangeably so much that now there is a new meaning for gender we don't even have consistent language in law now.

            • roblogic 2.3.1.1.1.2
              6 August 2020 at 9:58 am

              There are some significant problems with the trans movement, that aggressive trans activists (TRAs) tend to gloss over, outlined thoughtfully by J K Rowling.

            • Dennis Frank 2.3.1.1.1.3
              6 August 2020 at 10:30 am

              Yeah, I like the clarity of your analysis too James. I came across this recently:

              Third gender, or third sex, is a concept in which individuals are categorized, either by themselves or by society, as neither man nor woman. It is also a social category present in societies that recognize three or more genders. The term third is usually understood to mean "other"; some anthropologists and sociologists have described fourth, fifth, and "some" genders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

              Quite an eye-opener for me, it was. I had no idea of the deep context documented by professional researchers.

              Clearly there's a realistic basis for public policy around urinals: addition of a third option to the traditional binary. Existence of the biological third option defeats the habitual binary when identified in so many diverse cultural contexts & throughout history.

            • Patricia Bremner 2.3.1.1.1.4
              6 August 2020 at 1:37 pm

              I have a gay son, and relate so much to what you had to say. Thanks.

          • weka 2.3.1.1.2
            6 August 2020 at 9:51 am

            while it makes sense that most straight men won't be bothered, there's a clear conflict between some trans activist politics and women's sex-based rights. My suggestion at this point is, if you are new to this debate, to take a step back and be willing to be on a steep learning curve around gender, sex, and the TA/gender critical feminist war. It's complex, and the clusterfuck of the debate is nothing like I have seen anywhere else in 40+ years of politics. If you are not new, then you already know what I am talking about and your question is a set up.

        • Nic the NZer 2.3.1.2
          6 August 2020 at 9:29 am

          Thanks. Thats the first time I heard about the story of the GP from a reasonable source.

    • Robert Guyton 2.4
      6 August 2020 at 8:43 am

      “What is the difference between leftists and cannibals? “Cannibals don’t eat their friends.”

      Attributed to Lyndon Johnson

    • lprent 2.5
      6 August 2020 at 9:02 am

      Given enough rope, the Green ideological leftists idiots used it to hang themselves, using the old rationale `if we don’t hang together, we’ll hang separately. Their belief system did them in – can’t blame individuals.

      With my little adaptation in the quote, that is a good description of my views on Bomber and his ilk with their lack of toleration for ideas outside of their MAD silos. Same for those massive numbers of factional warriors in their little in groups on the right or religions or even amongst scientific and academic communities or in whole industries.

      Since the 1970s I’ve watched with awe at the ability of a lot of ideologues of many ilks to dance on the head of a pin to gain their own position whereby they can denounce the ideas of others – when I can’t tell the difference between the denounced and the denouncer.

      Then there are a pile of people who don’t indulge in point scoring games and who manage to cooperate despite their differences. In politics these tend to form larger political parties. In businesses they form corporations.

      The ideological divide that I always see isn’t between left and right, green and free-market, religious (including atheists) and agnostic. But it between the those who can cooperate for the common good and those who find that beneath them.

      This notion of Bomber’s that any group of leftists are innately capable of strategic thinking seems suspiciously like blind faith. I haven’t seen leftists in Aotearoa do it ever, and I’ve been watching them since the late 1960s.

      Same for any group outside of traditional bureaucrats (who do seem to want to run on rails for decades – but seldom get the chance). For instance, businesses rarely maintain a strategic direction for more than about 3 years unless they are largely controlled by a single person. Infrastructure development and military tend to be better over longer strategic directions, but that is largely because of the length of their purchasing cycles.

      The myth of strategic direction by a group is almost an axiom inside any MBA course. You’ll see cost shaving measures happening over longer periods of time – because they provide a continuing economic return. But you seldom see a genuine strategic direction last more than a few years when it isn’t caused by a underlying technology shift. For instance the JIT inventory strategies in the 1980s arising from better computer systems and better distribution links. Of the off-shoring of manufacturing as freight and air links and comms systems improved world wide.Or any number of other management fads that have been shored up by a change in the underlying tech.

      But if you look closely at any organisation that is made up of groups of people, what you’ll see is a series of strategies competing, and a awful lot of creative story telling to explain the continuity in quite large shifts in strategic direction over very numbers of years. What you won’t see very often in any coherent strategic directions lasting for a decade or more.

      I’d have to say that the Greens and before that Values have been remarkably consistent by comparison. Of course in NZ they have never really had access to sufficient power to start having to protect it. It’d be interesting to see what they’d do with it. Maybe this time

      • RedLogix 2.5.1
        6 August 2020 at 9:19 am

        Then there are a pile of people who don’t indulge in point scoring games and who manage to cooperate despite their differences.

        Probably most of what I've typed here in the past five years or more, has an underlying motivation that could be summarised in that one sentence.

        Effective political operators are not about 'winning or losing', but on achieving useful gains that everyone can live with.

        • Incognito 2.5.1.1
          6 August 2020 at 9:26 am

          Effective political operators are not about ‘winning or losing’, but on achieving useful gains that everyone can live with.

          QFT

          When I see either of those terms, a red flag goes up immediately. Same with “right” and “wrong”.

      • Dennis Frank 2.5.2
        6 August 2020 at 9:48 am

        Yes, that's true, your generalised point about ideology & group coherence in relation to social context that is in perennial flux. Consistency and strategy based on it worked better when the pace of change was slower. That pace shift between '60s & '70s made much strategic thinking irrelevant – except at the geopolitical level, where stasis ruled.

        The ideological divide that I always see isn’t between left and right, green and free-market, religious (including atheists) and agnostic. But it between the those who can cooperate for the common good and those who find that beneath them.

        Because holism transcends binary divides. Focus on common ground is holist by nature – few adopt it as praxis. Focus on the common good inspired us in the early years of the Greens economic policy development. I recall Jeanette Fitzsimons advising us to read this:

        For the Common Good: Redirecting the Economy toward Community, the Environment, and a Substainable Future, H.E. Daly and J.B. Cobb, Jr. 1990.

        The notion is ancient & eternal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_good

        Professor Reich brought it up to date a couple of years ago. I haven't watched this talk he gave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNLOdRMgaDY

        but here's the book… https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/564303/the-common-good-by-robert-b-reich/

    • roblogic 2.6
      6 August 2020 at 9:42 am

      What Bomber forgets is that aside from silly distractions the Greens are the only party that take the future of NZ seriously, in context of the calamities that are coming. COVID is just the opening act.

      https://twitter.com/hyperbolicTom/status/1289331671578243072?s=20

      • Robert Guyton 2.6.1
        6 August 2020 at 9:51 am

        Did you read the bit about Fermi's Paradox, roblogic?

        • roblogic 2.6.1.1
          6 August 2020 at 10:05 am

          Yeah but the question of alien life seems irrelevant to the story about our collapsing ecosystem (I don’t think there are any aliens out there, personally. Musk, Branson, Bezos are going to space and shitting on the Earth)

        • weka 2.6.1.2
          6 August 2020 at 10:06 am

          Everyone is dead and space is terra nullius? Or they learned their lesson and are hiding out in the trees again (metaphorically speaking), minding their own business.

      • weka 2.6.2
        6 August 2020 at 10:04 am

        yep. It's the old left, who have tagged the environment on to their politics but still don't really get it.

      • Sabine 2.6.3
        6 August 2020 at 10:29 am

        seriously if we are waiting for a party to finally, finally do something other then sign meaning less paper (cause yeah, they are still signing on paper – hopefully recycled) then we are truly doomed.

        the change will come when people understand that they have to change.

        Sadly the Green Party is no more future orientated then any other Party. They live from election to election and hopefully a paycheck.

        Anyone who consideres electric cars a greener option then standard cars cause 'fossil fuel' consumption, while pretending that the mining for lithium is NOT fossil fuel mining is neither green nor the answer to a better life.

        So really you want change? Change yourself first, your community next and when the change is so far gone that they various beige suits hanging on the government tit can't refuse to acknowledge that change in the population anymore they will come to the party and not a day early.

        But the most ineffective Party pretty much anywhere on this planet has been the Green Party.

        • weka 2.6.3.2
          6 August 2020 at 11:05 am

          referencing Dennis' point above about strategy, it's not possible for any party to do what you want, because most NZers won't vote for such a party. The Greens tread the fine line between what is needed and what is possible. That people like you and Bradbury continue to slag off the Greens is a failure of imagination on your part, which prevents seeing the strategy and most likely who the Greens actually are. Pfft, as if you're the only person that knows that EVs won't save the day and as if people in the GP don't understand cradle to grave. The Green Party cut their teeth on this stuff before you were even thinking about politics, and it's bizarre what prejudices people let blind them to the way out of our current dilemmas.

          Yes, personal and then community change is absolutely necessary, but we don't have time to rely on that alone (and again, where is the strategy? It's not like people having been saying what you just said my whole life, it's not enough). The people in parliament are individuals who live in communities too, and many of them want real change.

        • Andre 2.6.3.3
          6 August 2020 at 11:07 am

          Lithium production doesn't have to be fossil fuel dependent. That it mostly is at the moment is simply because it's cheaper that way, for now. But there's a bunch of alternative methods to getting the lithium, such as building a geothermal power station and extracting the lithium from the superheated groundwater going through the power station.

          https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/04/vulcan-is-a-step-closer-to-net-zero-carbon-lithium-production/

        • woodart 2.6.3.4
          6 August 2020 at 4:14 pm

          if the most ineffective party pretty much anywhere on this planet (hyperbole much?) are the greens, why is so much of what they have been banging on about, now mainstream thinking?I would say, in the BIG picture, the greens have been remarkably successful.

    • weka 2.7
      6 August 2020 at 10:02 am

      that's quite funny given Bradbury has spent more than three years running round slagging off the Greens, and actively undermining them, every chance he gets.

      I'm not a GP activist, but people can call me a green activist. My preference would be that we had MANA and the Mp still in parliament, and others, and then I'd have more to write about.

      I'd still be about the strategy though and will argue this with anyone that cares to: if actual lw policy matters, then the Greens have a significantly more lw policy platform than any other major party in this election. Hence the urge to vote for them. My personal political position is probably better described as deep green politics, and the GP are the best chance of us ever getting there.

      But in the meantime, fucking climate change blows every other argument and stupid bullshit leftwing bitch fest out of the water.

      • Sam 2.7.1
        6 August 2020 at 10:05 am

        Oh really?

      • roblogic 2.7.2
        6 August 2020 at 10:10 am

        Yep I'm gonna party vote green even tho the id politics stuff is annoying. Their policies are proper left and they take CC seriously.

        (unfortunately I'm in epsom & also have to swallow a dead rat (goldsmith) this election to try and get rid of ACT)

      • Dennis Frank 2.7.3
        6 August 2020 at 10:46 am

        My personal political position is probably better described as deep green politics, and the GP are the best chance of us ever getting there.

        Exactly. I differ from you only on the political positioning required to get there – but I have had to drift with the times on that point recently. National's obduracy withstood the attempt by their progressives to steer their ship more cleverly, so the toxic culture within will defeat consensus politics for a while yet.

        What is still missing is economic policy based on the commons. Both the left and right refuse to even think about that, yet it is the essential component for sustainable economics. Permaculture teaches design-based thinking, so I keep expecting it to emerge there. To provide that new design requires invention, so back in the '80s I conceived a synthesis of equity and enterprise as the conceptual basis for progress. Yet even permaculturalists haven't realised that yet. Too imaginal…

        • Sacha 2.7.3.1
          6 August 2020 at 10:58 am

          a synthesis of equity and enterprise as the conceptual basis for progress

          What was the simplest way you worked out to describe it?

          • Dennis Frank 2.7.3.1.1
            6 August 2020 at 12:42 pm

            As written, as you quoted. Can't see how anyone could simplify further. But if you were fishing for framing to help explain it, I didn't get that far.

            Green policy formulation in the first couple of years involved compiling elements deemed essential (UBI & true-cost accounting, for instance, pollution & natural resource taxes plus others). Members suggested & discussed in person when the working group met, policy drafts got amended subsequently by JF & posted to members for further comment. Then the Alliance hit & the process was shelved.

            Since I was advocating something radical that hadn't been done before, I don't blame any of the others for being averse to integrating principles from the political left & right. Transcending binary belief systems is never easy.

        • weka 2.7.3.2
          6 August 2020 at 10:59 am

          "economic policy based on the commons."

          Can you please talk about that a bit more?

          • roblogic 2.7.3.2.1
            6 August 2020 at 11:53 am

            Guillotines?

          • Dennis Frank 2.7.3.2.2
            6 August 2020 at 1:05 pm

            I tend to view it from a human rights perspective as well as the economic view. Economics is all about efficiency of operations, costs & benefits quantised. When you transcend it via noticing that values are more qualities than quantities, and those drive behaviour more powerfully, then it becomes a question of how stuff gets shared.

            By stuff, I mean mostly money & power, of course! So if society incorporates a conceptual framework empowering equity, people get a more equal share as of right. The convergence of legal provision on the principle is usually the structural problem: govts pretend to honour the principle while minimising the amount of provision. You know that.

            Democracy allows them to get away with it. If they were bound by a charter of rights that included the provision, and their employment as MPs contracted them to legislate accordingly, public perception of the validity of wealth-sharing would be raised accordingly. People would see their entitlement to wealth-sharing as a human right.

            Now the status quo does simulate this situation, since our government endorsed the UN covenant that specifies the several rights to sharing in the economy. Have you read those sections? In theory, our govt is bound to deliver. In practice, the delivery is ever arguable in extent.

            So I advise strengthening the left hand side of the synthesis (equity) to reduce the gap between pretence & reality. As for the rhs (enterprise), I've always advised supplementing bau with collective endeavour. Traditional co-ops are a useful model but the operational lack seems to be around education and training: nobody provides! So generations keep passing the opportunity by out of ignorance. Remember Mondragon originated in 1956, yet the model has failed to replicate globally.

            How could a working model of successful synthesis of both equity and enterprise fail to replicate? Mass psychology. Leftists promoting working together as an ideal instead of doing it in real life. Centrists being too lazy to think about it. Rightists being too scared to change.

            In recent decades I've trended to the view that the paradigm shift required in politics can only get triggered by mass desperation. As we've seen recently, the inertial effect of complacency is even able to withstand a pandemic!

      • Roy Cartland 2.7.4
        6 August 2020 at 4:34 pm

        slagging off the Greens, and actively undermining them

        Yes, I've noticed that too – I got 'silenced' from his blog for pointing out same. I can't work out what his agenda around that is supposed to be. He's built a small but vociferous army of absolute Green haters; not for anything policy-related, just due to dumb gotcha stuff he hears in the MSM.

        • weka 2.7.4.1
          6 August 2020 at 5:15 pm

          I'm guessing some of it is because of his antipathy towards identity politics, which no doubt is in part due to the shit thrown at him by parts of the left over some of his behaviour.

          Might be a bad cultural fit issue with the Greens too. He's not the only one that can't get over that.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 2.8
      6 August 2020 at 1:25 pm

      "I haven't seen leftists in Aotearoa do it [strategic thinking] ever, and I've been watching them since the late 1960s."

      NZ examples of leftist strategic thinking exist, e.g. the 2016 Labour/Green MoU. Is it your eyesight or your brain that’s letting you down?

      • Dennis Frank 2.8.1
        6 August 2020 at 3:29 pm

        Brain, perhaps. Since I wrote in support of it as a strategic initiative at the time. However you may recall that the Green movement originated as holistic (non-binary), and I became part of it that year (1968) on that basis, and it became overtly politic with a slogan expressly stating that it was neither right nor left in the early '80s.

        Consequently the MoU was a centrist/leftist collaboration. I do understand that anyone in the leftist bubble will be unable to see it as such, of course. Bubble inevitably warp inhabitants away from reality.

        So I ought to acknowledge that it was genuine evidence of leftists doing strategic thinking, eh? While simultaneously pointing out that it was a twin-tribe thingy.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 2.8.1.1
          6 August 2020 at 6:32 pm

          "I do understand that anyone in the leftist bubble will be unable to see it as such, of course." Genuinely don’t understand why you would choose to believe that – simply having fun tilting at leftist windmills?

          Sometimes absolutist reckons and wind-ups are written with such dismissive authority that gullibile readers might mistake them for facts – IMHO, of course.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    6 August 2020 at 7:15 am

    CNN has a review of several primaries here: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/05/politics/primary-results-takeaways-august-4/index.html

    One featured a progressive black Dem vs establishment black Dem battle:

    Cori Bush, a progressive activist and veteran of the racial justice protest movement, defeated 20-year incumbent Missouri Rep. William Lacy Clay in a Democratic primary on Tuesday, a stunning victory for the party's insurgent left. The US House seat, based in St. Louis, has been held by Clay and his father, former Rep. William Clay Sr., one of the founders of the Congressional Black Caucus, since 1969.

    Bush, who challenged Clay in 2018 and lost, was the first candidate launched by Justice Democrats, the progressive group dedicated to toppling moderate Democratic congressional incumbents. "We've been called radicals, terrorists, we've been dismissed as an impossible fringe movement — that's what they called us," Bush said in her victory speech. "But now, we are a multiracial, multiethnic, multigenerational, mass movement united in demanding change, in demanding accountability, in demanding that our police, our government, our country recognize that Black lives do, indeed, matter."

    Bush's second attempt to unseat Clay, who won in 2018 with 57% of the primary vote, was backed Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, the Sunrise Movement, a youth-led group that champions the Green New Deal, and other leftist and progressive leaders, including Jamaal Bowman, who ousted Rep. Eliot Engel in New York during the state's June primary.

    "Not me, US," Bush tweeted overnight, after her win was confirmed, echoing Sanders' campaign slogan in 2016 and 2020.

  4. Peter 4
    6 August 2020 at 7:39 am

    I see a Newshub headline on my device this morning. Looks like National's put its policy out : something about Collins saying Ardern is 'weak.'

    • ScottGN 4.1
      6 August 2020 at 7:52 am

      I don’t think that Collins attacking Ardern directly is going to be much of a vote winner. It will just be to get the base worked up.

    • I Feel Love 4.2
      6 August 2020 at 8:46 am

      Collins "Ardern is weak, the successful Covid response is because of Bloomfield"

      Brownlee "Bloomfield is scaremongering, what does he know that he isn't telling us!!!"

      Key "Open the borders"

      Clarke "Privatise quarantine"

      Hosking "Don't get tested, freedom!!!"

      Bomber "Greens are scary"

      etc…

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    6 August 2020 at 7:40 am

    A capitalist examines the prospects of system crash: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/coronavirus-banks-collapse/612247/

    sometime in the next year, we will all stare into the financial abyss. At that point, we will be well beyond the scope of the previous recession, and we will have either exhausted the remedies that spared the system last time or found that they won’t work this time around. What then?

    I was part of the group that structured and sold CDOs and CLOs at Morgan Stanley in the 1990s. The two securities are remarkably alike. Like a CDO, a CLO has multiple layers, which are sold separately. The bottom layer is the riskiest, the top the safest. If just a few of the loans in a CLO default, the bottom layer will suffer a loss and the other layers will remain safe. If the defaults increase, the bottom layer will lose even more, and the pain will start to work its way up the layers.

    Readers who are financially literate ought to read the detailed analysis – I'll just copy the sections other readers can comprehend, to illuminate the scenario.

    The financial sector isn’t like other sectors. If it fails, fundamental aspects of modern life could fail with it. We could lose the ability to get loans to buy a house or a car, or to pay for college. Without reliable credit, many Americans might struggle to pay for their daily needs.

    It is a distasteful fact that the present situation is so dire in part because the banks fell right back into bad behavior after the last crash—taking too many risks, hiding debt in complex instruments and off-balance-sheet entities, and generally exploiting loopholes in laws intended to rein in their greed. Sparing them for a second time this century will be that much harder.

    • Incognito 5.1
      6 August 2020 at 7:52 am

      Incomprehensible, especially the last two sections.

      • Dennis Frank 5.1.1
        6 August 2020 at 8:23 am

        Playing dumb, eh? Yet clever enough to have postponed it until the danger of being selected as a Labour list candidate is safely past. 😏

        • Incognito 5.1.1.1
          6 August 2020 at 8:27 am

          It’s official, you’re talking gibberish. No wonder I cannot parse 84.3 ± 0.9% (95% CI) of your comments.

        • Gabby 5.1.1.2
          6 August 2020 at 10:53 am

          That's not a flash suit you're wearing, those tailors put one over on you.

          • greywarshark 5.1.1.2.1
            6 August 2020 at 3:08 pm

            Gabby I am reading Lindsey Davis and her character Falco who is a spy for the leaders, wealthy of Rome and he has to dodge all sorts including people who pop out with knives, like you who pop up to snipe. In the game that my sons spends time on-line, the spy is the one who jumps you from nowhere. It keeps him on his toes so to speak.

            • Gabby 5.1.1.2.1.1
              6 August 2020 at 5:41 pm

              Still, we shouldn't criticise the private sector for proposing campervans as acceptable accommodation.

    • Tricledrown 5.2
      6 August 2020 at 8:34 am

      Trump rolled back all the laws enacted by the Obama admin.

      So ponzi schemes , huge bonuses for bankers etc all the worst banking practices have been allowed to flourish to levels much worse than the GFC.

      • roblogic 5.2.1
        6 August 2020 at 9:33 am

        They've all been doing it since Reagan came in and said "Government is the problem". Wall St has been rolling back the New Deal and taking over the US government for decades now. A sham of democracy.

  6. Dennis Frank 6
    6 August 2020 at 8:36 am

    Dark knight gives Nats economic policy: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12354064

    "Why don't we let in rich Americans who want to build a house in New Zealand? Who cares? They're in Mangawhai or somewhere, they are going to create thousands of jobs. Why do we care if someone who lives in New York wants to spend $10 million building a house in Auckland, using NZ craftsmen and NZ tradespeople?"

    Golfing and tourism resorts built by two American billionaires, including the Tara Iti golf course near Mangawhai, received almost $1 million in wage subsidies between them during the Covid-19 lockdown.

    Forget Roger Douglas, Prebs & co, subsidies are socialism at work! It's left/right win/win all over the place! He's reacting to this

    The coronavirus pandemic sent the US economy plunging by a record-shattering 32.9 per cent annual rate last quarter

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12352500

    And he's alerting us to a collective gymnastics conundrum, via bad grammar:

    Key said central government and the business community needed to be able to rapidly change course as information becomes available, even if such moves were disconcerting. "There is no elegant way of dismount a galloping horse."

  7. joe90 7
    6 August 2020 at 8:38 am

    *fuck*

    https://twitter.com/cnni/status/1291033723471663104

    Lebanon's cabinet declared a two-week state of emergency in the capital city and handed control of security in the capital to the military following a massive explosion in Beirut that killed at least 135 people and injured 5,000 others.

    The explosion on Tuesday sent shockwaves across the city, causing widespread damage as far as the outskirts of Beirut.

    Officials said they expect the death toll to rise further as emergency workers dig through the rubble to search for survivors.

    Beirut's city governor Marwan Abboud said up to 300,000 people have lost their homes and authorities are working on providing them with food, water and shelter.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/08/lebanon-eyes-state-emergency-deadly-beirut-blast-live-200804234925493.html

    • greywarshark 8.1
      6 August 2020 at 11:31 am

      Q. What was the winning margin of that indicative, not conclusive, vote on Brexit?

      A. Leave 17,410,742 – 51.89% Remain 16,141,241 – 48.11% Turnout of registered voters 72.21%
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

      Leaving Brexit was an example of totally inadequate simple-majority law unsatisfactory for matters that change the system of the country. It was far different than an election that was part of the system. That decision has left the UK in a political hole it will never climb out of. Tried and true lefties say ' the people voted for it', for lies! They didn't have a clue what perversion of a political ploy they were falling for.

      • Bearded Git 8.1.1
        6 August 2020 at 5:59 pm

        It needed a 55% or 60% super majority, or there should have been a confirmatory referendum once people had more information on the outcome.

        The Liberal Democrats fucked it up big time by attacking Corbyn rather than joining with him in his stance.

        Cameron was a fool to commission the referendum…but a genius compared with Boris.

        Brexiters continually went on about 17 million people wanted the outcome without saying once that 16 million didn't.

  9. Observer Tokoroa 9
    6 August 2020 at 9:57 am

    Houses for Ordinary people are The True Real resolve of Kiwis – not Rugby.

    The persons who care for New Zealanders are not the Banks. For they exist night and day to squeeze every bit of fiscal Life out of the pockets of ordinary families and persons. Banks are Shylocks in new shirts. Ask Shakespeare.

    They have even removed hundreds and thousands of NZeders out of once owned homes, and sold them off into the sweet arms of Landlords.

    Landlords, as you know, demand monstrously cruel Rents and laugh at the poor they entrap.

    The Wealthy people glutton on, receiving every perk the poor receive. Incredible crazy Gluttony !

    The Excessive Land shall be demanded. The required Housing must be built and maintained. The Wealthy have had their fun. Haven't they ?

    Else, New Zealand will be the world's laughing stock. Slaves.

    • roblogic 9.1
      6 August 2020 at 10:37 am

      All these economic decisions are rational given the market conditions set up by *government* of every stripe since Roger Douglas and his merry band of reverse robin hoods came along in their trojan horse and shafted ordinary kiwis

      • greywarshark 9.1.1
        6 August 2020 at 11:39 am

        Unfortunately most of the world has got pulled into the freemarket neolib system and the housing problem is widespread. What to do without pulling the whole house of cards down on our heads? Perhaps we will be like Lebanon.

        Or like the UK out of the EU and with huge loans still to repay – however we should remember that they ended up with a huge amount to pay to the USA after WW2 – through their lend-lease agreement etc. It made sense to join the European Common Market after that. Now they have decided to leave and pal up with the individualistic USA, a co-operative world is too common for those moguls, and the UK wants to plunder other pastures no doubt.

  10. Chris T 10
    6 August 2020 at 10:20 am

    Speaking of Banks

    I am listening to John Bank's covering for the normal dude on talk back this morning.

    I'd forgotten what a patronising prat he is

  11. RedLogix 11
    6 August 2020 at 10:42 am

    I think this may use up my quota of stupid questions for the month, but what happens if say ACT, NZ1 and the Greens all fall just below 5% and none of them win an electorate seat? And at the same time both Labour and National fall below 50% for the party vote?

    How does this work in terms of forming a govt? Does Labour have to form a coalition with National?

    I must be missing something here.

    • James Thrace 11.1
      6 August 2020 at 10:49 am

      In that scenario the party votes for those under 5% would be distributed proportionately.

      If in the unlikely event Labour got 47% and National 45% Labour would be the government with National nipping at their heels. It would take just one or maybe two by-elections to fall from Labour to National to have a change of government.

      If both parties ended up even, then we'd have a hung Parliament after redistribution and face another election.

      OT: isn't it amazing that NZ only had one by-election this term when Jonathan Coleman left. Usually there's about 3 or more.

      • Chris T 11.1.1
        6 August 2020 at 11:33 am

        Forgive my ignorance and it is pure lack of knowledge of history, but have we ever had a hung election in NZ?

        • James Thrace 11.1.1.1
          6 August 2020 at 12:30 pm

          No.

          But 2020 has told us that all bets are off.

          Although given how diabolical National are, it's unlikely to happen this year.

          • Chris T 11.1.1.1.1
            6 August 2020 at 12:35 pm

            Although given how diabolical National are, it's unlikely to happen this year.

            Pretty fair assessment Lol

      • Draco T Bastard 11.1.2
        6 August 2020 at 1:15 pm

        Which is why the Greens policy is preferential voting for both electorates and parties. Helps make sure that the parties that people actually prefer are elected.

    • Andre 11.2
      6 August 2020 at 10:50 am

      Then whichever of Nats or Labour got the most votes gets to form the government. They will divvy up the 120 seats in relative proportion to their party vote. Say it was Labour 48% and Nat 44%, then Labour would get 63 seats (48% vote share*120 seats/92% total qualified non-wasted vote) and the Nats 57 seats (or maybe 62 and 58 depending on how the Sainte Lague formula works it out).

      https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2017/statistics/sainte-lague-formula.html

    • Dennis Frank 11.3
      6 August 2020 at 10:57 am

      Not a silly question methinks. Could happen, so worth considering. I believe a national unity govt would be the framing deployed. They could also call it neoliberals disunited, eh? Would make fun political posturing a cultural norm until deckchair-arranging began to pall for all, whereupon the attraction of another election (mid-term) would suck their Titanic into an ocean vortex…

  12. Ad 12
    6 August 2020 at 10:45 am

    I know it deserves a full post in itself, but well done to this government and in particular Ministers Parker and O'Connor for the passage of the gazetting of the National POlicy Statement on Freshwater, National Environmental Standards for Freshwater, regulations on stock exclusion, and regulations on measurement and reporting on lakes and rivers;

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2008/S00045/new-rules-in-place-to-restore-healthy-rivers.htm

    The regulations that go into force reasonably quickly from this include:

    • Requiring councils to give effect to Te Mana o Te Wai by prioritising the health and wellbeing of our waterways

    • Halting further loss of natural wetlands and streams

    • Setting higher health standards at swimming spots

    • Putting controls on high-risk farm practices such as winter grazing and feedlots

    • Setting stricter controls on nitrogen pollution and new bottom lines on other measures of waterway health

    • Requiring urban waterways to be cleaned up and new protections for urban streams

    • Preserving and restoring the connectivity of New Zealand fish species’ habitats

    • Requiring mandatory and enforceable farm environment plans

    • Making real-time measuring and reporting of data on water use mandatory.

    They've also made special provision for vegetable growing areas which are critical for national supply, such as Pukekohe and the Horowhenua. The acid needs to go on Auckland Horizons councils to clean up these areas, even with the apparent carve-outs.

    Looking forward to regional councils actually putting resource into enforcement and prosecution to get the turnaround we need.

    • swordfish 12.1
      6 August 2020 at 6:36 pm

      I too feel elated whenever politicians facilitate "the passage of the gazetting of" things.

      The gazetting, in particular, always gets my heart rate up.

  13. Sabine 13
    6 August 2020 at 10:58 am

    I have mentioned that before lockdown and yes, my fear has proven correct. The majority of new unemployment cases are women.

    But hey 'shovel' ready jobs are being offered. Billions being poured in shovel ready. 🙂

    And women running small businesses to create an income for themselves in a society that gives few fucks of job creation for women can apply for a 'government loan' (fully refundable) or go to Winz for some much needed bullshittery in order to get nothing, cause they may share the home with a bloke aka the 'mealticket'.

    I seriously hope that long term Labour will do better then that, but then Labour needs poor people, and poor women are always good to squeeze some more votes about. Right, cause 'we fight for women', and their children. One denied benefit at a time.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018758209/covid-19-attention-must-be-paid-to-jobs-for-women-during-recovery-employment-opportunities-commissioner

    "

    The Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioner says policy makers need to ensure jobs created for the Covid-19 recovery will employ women.

    Ninety percent of New Zealanders who have so far lost their jobs due to Covid-19 are women.

    The latest jobs report from Stats NZ shows 10,000 women make up the 11,000 people who are now unemployed.

    The underutilisation rate – indicating when employees are working fewer hours than they'd like to – is also higher for women."

    • Chris T 13.1
      6 August 2020 at 11:45 am

      Without wanting to sound cynical, is there any actual breakdown analysis on this figure?

      What sort of jobs we are talking about etc?

      Would imagine the first people that lost their jobs were part timers that are more likely to be female (kids and things) and in hospitality (which basically shut down and is screwed) which is also more likely to be female.

    • RedBaronCV 13.2
      6 August 2020 at 12:44 pm

      Paying care giving jobs a decent wage would likely transfer some into that industry although I know it's not for all.

      Getting over stereotypes.

      Giving them some priority for courses on driving trucks and ag machinery. When ever I see agricultural areas complaining about lack of labour I think – offer part time hours and get some women trained who are well embedded in the community. Problem solved for the next decade
      A lot are hospo I think. So very good argument for not extending any of the under 30 work/travel visa’s as they expire .as a lot of that work is hospo or seasonal.

      • Sabine 13.2.1
        6 August 2020 at 1:03 pm

        i totally agree, all these women in their retail, hospitality, air NZ, cruise ship jobs etc should just move somewhere rural, be thaught how to drive a tractor and run a milking machine and all is sorted.

        Yeah, right Tui.

        10.000 out of 11.000 newly unemployed are women. Or did you miss that with you quick fix of bashing unde 26 year old fruit picking tourists. Mind, these women can get themselv a little camper van, bid farewell to hubby and children and just go fruit picking and sleeping in a dorm. Right? Even better, if they are single mums they can just go fruitpicking and their kids can too, right?

        Good fucking grief.

        This is why women in this country are among the poorest. Because there are too many that simply don't give a shit about how others do so as long as it affects not them.

        Never mind that the Government has yet to actually do anything for women so far. Oh but they won't, right kinder gentler bullshit.

        • RedBaronCV 13.2.1.1
          6 August 2020 at 9:15 pm

          Err I wasn't suggesting anything like fruit picking actually and I am certainly not bashing women. I wanted to be sure that women are considered and taken onto the good number of courses being run at the moment ( and there are apparently airline pilots on some ) that lead to some of the better paid rural jobs – some of which are contracting ( driving grape pickers for example). A lot of these don't require moving to the back blocks but maybe to secondary towns like Nelson, Blenheim, Hastings Palmerston North. – or some of them may even want assistance to get HT licences to drive trucks- which generally seems to be better paid than care giving – funny that. Then there are all the trades courses – generally more women are taking these up – but we do want to make sure that any barriers are dealt with.

          So no the "put the kids in the camper van and go somewhere" was not part of my thinking simply an assumption on your part so please don't sledge me about it.

          Likewise hospo. Yes I have registered that we are talking about women and yes a large number of jobs seem to be from this industry and the numbers are also I assume locals eligible for welfare. But overall of out total hospo jobs pre covid a very large number (well over 2/3rds seem to be filled with those on short term visa's including the short term travel/work visa's.) There seems to be no reason to grant extensions on these visa's despite petitions and that would not have happened to any great extent pre covid so why do we not try to have locals filling our local hospo jobs? Nothing snide about that .

          Do women overall need more support – right across the economy that would be a yes.

    • Sabine 14.1
      6 August 2020 at 1:04 pm

      can you feel the economic anxiety of the white male working class of the US?

      did you hear about her fucking emails and her lack of stamina?

      oh well, to bad.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.2
      6 August 2020 at 5:30 pm

      Poor people's lives are less important that rich guys profit. After all, its easy to replace the poor person killed to continue raking in the profit.

  15. roblogic 15
    6 August 2020 at 1:06 pm

    Today is the 75th Anniversary of the nuclear devastation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Our species is unsurpassed at self-destruction.

    https://twitter.com/TheSpinoffTV/status/1291101672232673282?s=20

  16. Rapunzel 16
    6 August 2020 at 2:18 pm

    Does anyone know if it's legit for a sitting, albeit leaving MP such as Paula Bennett to be moonlighting for a full week of morning talkback shows on Newshub's Magic Radio especially during election cycle They're already dedicated 24/7 to trying to get the National Party into govt but what part of this and the discussions can be separated from campaign advertising $$?

  17. bwaghorn 17
    6 August 2020 at 2:53 pm

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/122353535/threats-abuse-for-huruhuru-shop-owners-over-hairy-te-reo-meaning

    I thought we wanted te reo in every day usage.

    This is the second article in a fortnight were shop owners are getting shit for using it .

    The other one was a restaurant in Auckland..if I recall rightly

    • I Feel Love 17.1
      6 August 2020 at 4:57 pm

      ha! Huruhuru also means pubic hair. Look Waghorn, rule of thumb, if you're unsure whether naming something from someone elses culture is appropriation or not, maybe don't do it, who needs the headache.

  18. Chris T 18
    6 August 2020 at 3:38 pm

    Did we just see Winston's last ever speech in parliament?

    I am guessing yes

    • lprent 18.1
      6 August 2020 at 8:10 pm

      I never write Winston Peters off. I remember the political idiots from National, Act, and the dipshit side of the left doing that in 1999, 2008, 2011, and today.

      What those wishful politically dumb numpties forget is three things. He has a constituency for his brand of politic, those people are exactly the right kind of paranoid to ignore pollsters asking them who they’d vote for, and they all vote.

      That is why the NZF vote on election days is always higher than virtually all of the polls by a few percent. While the greens is usually lower (lots of non voters there).

      About the only thing that might mitigate that long term trend this time is Shane Jones. I am so glad he isn’t Labour any more. He is a real undisciplined pain to have around any political party.

    • Treetop 18.2
      6 August 2020 at 9:52 pm

      I think Shane Jones will win the Northland seat.

      • lprent 18.2.1
        7 August 2020 at 7:41 am

        Good probability. He has actually delivered the goodies – unlike the bridges that Bridges promised in a past by-election.

        The issue would be if he could figure out how to retain the seat in subsequent elections. Electorate work is a long tedious detailed process of getting down with the distressed in an electorate. It doesn’t lend itself to the big-noting and meaningless rhetoric that Shane Jones is so well known for.

  19. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 19
    6 August 2020 at 4:00 pm

    A gracious, eloquent Adjournment debate speech by the Prime Minister, followed by one full of personal attacks by the Leader of the Opposition.

    The contrast between the two speeches should be a marker for our approach to voting on election day.

  20. Abba Lerner 20
    6 August 2020 at 4:29 pm

    More MMT talk starting to appear in the news
    https://www.interest.co.nz/news/106385/grant-robertson-remains-committed-reducing-government-debt-long-term-saying-modern

    It's a shame Grant Robertson has dismissed it so quickly.

    • Draco T Bastard 20.1
      6 August 2020 at 4:50 pm

      Grant Robinson is still wedded to the delusional neoclassical/liberal school of economics. Most of Labour are and that is why they can't do the transformation that we need.

      • Abba Lerner 20.1.1
        6 August 2020 at 5:12 pm

        Yup, once the MMT lens is understood, it opens up a whole lot of progressive policy choices. These policies under a neoliberal view point are very difficult to justify.

  21. The Al1en 21
    6 August 2020 at 5:29 pm

    James Shaw with a couple of zingers in his last speech in the house this term.

    "There's Labour: 'Let's keep moving.' New Zealand First: 'Let's not.'

    “You can almost see the ads can’t you?” said Shaw. “New Zealand First: You can stop progress.

    “Act are making a bold play for the assault rifle vote, with: ‘The Act Party – more deadly than serious.’

    “And National have settled on a new leader with a new slogan: ‘Why vote for the lesser evil?'”

    • Muttonbird 21.1
      6 August 2020 at 8:07 pm

      Their billboards read, "Back your Future". With the greatest respect to the NZF voting demographic, their future will mostly have been planned and locked in some time ago.

      Last election their billboards read, "Had Enough?"

      Winston, I think we have.

  22. Gabby 22
    6 August 2020 at 5:48 pm

    If Grace Mullane's murderer loses his appeal, can his sentence be adjusted, due to his utter lack of remorse?

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