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Open mike 06/04/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 6th, 2015 - 183 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

183 comments on “Open mike 06/04/2015 ”

  1. mickysavage 1

    And in the middle east a Palestinian Feminist MP is placed in administrative detention by Isreali forces. She is one of 17 legislators who have been treated this way.

    “According to the Alternative Information Center, Jarrar is joining 16 other members of the PLC who are currently serving time in Israeli prisons, which means that more than 10 percent of Palestinian lawmakers are currently in Israeli prisons. Nine of those members — including Hamas member Aziz Dweik — are in administrative detention, and have not stood trial nor been sentenced. The PLC is comprised of 132 members who were elected in the last democratic elections held in the PA in 2006.”


    • Ron 1.1

      Unusual way of spelling Israel Mickey, or was that intentional?

      • Anne 1.1.1

        Typo Ron. Easy to transpose two letters when typing.

      • mickysavage 1.1.2

        Totally accidental Ron. I was in a hurry …

        • Ron

          No Problem I just had a thought that you might have intentionally spelt it that way to make a point.

          • Weepus beard

            Ron, what was the point you imagined mickysavage might have been making?

            • Ron

              The el at the end of Israel refers to their God. Thought he might have been making a point on that considering the subject.
              My mind works in funny ways, just wanted to see if I was seeing something that sounded interesting to me.

    • Philip Ferguson 1.2

      The “Palestinian feminist MP” thing is a bit misleading (makes her sound like she could be a Palestinian version of Hillary Clinton!).

      This isn’t at all a criticism of you Micky, you just got it from another magazine and it’s great that you’ve mentioned her case – but I really dislike the way people in the West, like that magazine, continuously deny agency to the Palestinians. In this case denying Khalida Jarrar the right to be presented as what she actually is.

      Khalida Jarrar is a Marxist and a member of the Politbureau of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. That’s why she was snatched by the Israeli occupation forces.

      Her two main areas of work as a central leader of the PFLP are around prisoners and women’s rights. The occupation has been continuously harassing her, trying to force her to leave Ramallah, while simultaneously attempting to prevent her leaving the country.

      On ‘administrative detention’ see:
      (this is from a talk I gave a few years ago on political prisoners in Ireland and Palestine, places internment without trial have been widely used)

      An update on ‘administrative detention’ was provided by one of our readers yeterday, see: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2015/04/05/israels-use-of-administrative-detention-an-update/

  2. les 2

    Police shut 30 stations in an effort to combat budget cuts-‘O’connor says stations are being moved from low-socio economic areas, because residents tend to put up less of a fight. “That’s why we are a little cynical about this . . . people there often do need somewhere to go running to.”

    – The Dominion Post

    • Weepus beard 2.1

      They claim there are more cops on the street instead of in the station but 111 call response times have lengthened and have failed to meet targets which makes a mockery of the “street vs station approach” does it not?

      David Farrar’s love of statistics is well known – I wonder if he’ll highlight this?

    • RedBaronCV 2.2

      And there has been this 20% drop in crime says Mike Bush – really so why not have budget cuts too ?? Or is the drop just lack of recording

      • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1

        Lack of recording. Last time I went in to report a crime they tried really hard to get me not to. I suspect those that aren’t as much of a bastard as I am are probably persuaded not to.

    • millsy 2.3

      First it was the post offices…
      ..then it was the hospitals…
      ..then the schools…
      now the police stations..

  3. John Shears 4

    I have just searched TS (POA Tony Gibson) and am puzzled as to why the latest item about POA on TS dates back to the fight between the Union and POA in 2012.

    ON TVNZ Q&A yesterday Gibson claimed he was not arrogant , that he had discussed
    expansion plans, that the extensions proposed did not need to be notified , etc etc etc ad nauseum.

    It is my opinion that the complex governance arrangement where our elected Mayor & Councillors are twice removed from the POA by two appointed boards, ACIL and POA
    who appear to be in thrall to the CEO Tony Gibson is part of the problem.

    Be quite clear that the major shipping company using POA is Maersk and Tony Gibson is an ex CEO of Maersk , The Fox in the Henhouse?

    He also said that continuing expansion will not be needed as there will be a “Paradigm Shift” in the international freight industry , what ever that means.

    The fact that we Aucklanders own the POA outright and that we have elected a Mayor and Council seems to be lost to the people near the action, is this Democracy in the 21st Century?

    • lprent 4.1

      So many things to write about, so little time…. And authors tend to write opinions about things that they are interested in

      Guest post

    • Anne 4.2

      I noted in the first interview that Mayor, Les Brown suggested expanding the Onehunga port on the Manukau Harbour and building the much needed railway across the isthmus connecting the two ports. Seemed like an eminently sensible idea to me and would counter the need to expand out into the harbour.

      When it came to the interview with Gibson, he appeared to ignore Brown’s suggestion and to concentrate instead on the geographical and economic inadequacies of moving port facilities to Whangarei or Tauranga. I had the impression he deliberately left out the alternate idea of the Onehunga port expansion probably because it came from Mayor Brown. In other words there is the usual political game playing from POA.

      These POA executives were put in place by Rodney Hide were they not?

      • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1

        The Manukau is a mass of shifting sandbanks and not really suitable for a major port:

        Because of the large harbour area and narrow mouth between the Manukau Heads, tidal flow is rapid and a bar at the mouth makes navigating in or out of the harbour dangerous. New Zealand’s most tragic shipwreck occurred on the bar in 1863 when HMS Orpheus ran aground in clear weather with a loss of 189 lives. For this reason, along with the harbour’s shallowness, it is not Auckland’s favoured port, and the facilities at Onehunga are not very large compared to the other Ports of Auckland facilities on the Waitemata Harbour on the northeast of the isthmus.

        • Anne

          Surely with modern equipment the sandbanks and the bar at the mouth could be regularly dredged to keep a channel open and clear. Of course the large container ships could not use the port, but the small cargo boats – and there’s plenty of them – could be diverted to Onehunga, especially if facilities are expanded to cater for them.

          • Draco T Bastard

            It probably could be but how much damage do you want to do to the ecosystem there?

            Personally I’m more in favour of shutting down the ports and moving most of the operation to Marsden Point where there’s a nice deep harbour and rail to Auckland.

            • John Shears

              @ DTB
              As I understand it there is no rail link to Marsden from Whangarei and the tunnels to Auckland are not big enough for 40ft containers, other wise that does seem to be a smart solution for more and bigger ships.

              • Draco T Bastard

                As I understand it there is no rail link to Marsden from Whangarei

                Heh, was wondering about that but couldn’t find it either way so just guessed. Still, it’s one of those things that should be put in before more roads.

                • alwyn

                  I’m sure that there will be one by the end of the year.
                  Their new MP has promised it. As he said while campaigning.

                  “Mr Peters said the Northland to Auckland line has been run down, but worse than that was no rail link to the deep water port at Marsden Pt. “We will fix both of those up.””

                  He didn’t say how he would get it to happen though.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    He can advance a members bill and I’m reasonably certain that a majority of MPs in parliament would support it – if it gets pulled from the hat. We really do need to make government more representative of the voters.

                  • North

                    Alwyn above @ 2.56 pm today – some bleak consolation I guess that the 13,000 turnaround Northland thrashing can be turned to fuel a mock-fest because Peters not being in government is actually powerless without the happenchance of ballot draw supported beyond the opposition benches.

                    Something we all knew of course when ‘sending the message’ about conceit and duplicity and emperor-no-clothes. Apparently not known to the conceited and duplicitous and emperor-no-clothes however who invested considerable fetid air in fearmongering that the sky would fall in if they weren’t ‘allowed’ to win.

                    Goodness…….the unnatural contortions of the miffed ‘Born To Rule’, found out and suffering third-termitis !

      • John Shears 4.2.2

        @Anne The suggestion about using Onehunga may not be as silly as some think.
        What if the waste area above the bridge was reclaimed and used for industry but more importantly heaps of space to store imported cars while they are processed before being released for sale thus leaving a huge area clear for container freight at Auckland . The vehicle ships would simply use Onehunga rather than Auckland.
        Sound too simple??

        • Anne

          My knowledge of the subject is very limited, but every time I cross the bridge and look across at the port it saddens me that it has been left to run down. It was a bustling port once. My conclusion is that the decision over the decades to ignore the area is a political one. That is, there were/are few votes in it for the predominantly National govts. since the 1950s. The potential to turn it into a modern day collection point for appropriate cargo storage and a quick turn-around for the smaller cargo boats is huge. Add a dedicated railway link between the two ports and that has got to be good for the entire Auckland isthmus and well beyond.

          The problem is, it takes imagination and a long term outlook. We know the self- grandiosing NAct puppets have negligible quantities of both.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.3

      The fact that we Aucklanders own the POA outright and that we have elected a Mayor and Council seems to be lost to the people near the action, is this Democracy in the 21st Century?

      The capitalists don’t like democracy as it gets in the way of them doing anything they want. This is shown in National’s canning of democracy and implementation of dictatorship in Canterbury.

      The fact of the matter is that our entire Representative Democracy was set up so as to prevent actual democracy and to leave the rich and powerful in charge.

    • Skinny 4.4

      How Gibson wasn’t frog marched into council chambers and dismissed after the antics exposed in the book Dirty Politics has me fucked. On that note the one pity of Maritime Union finally settling their collective agreement with the POAL, was the union didn’t seek discovery. This is the real reason the port company settled. Damage control and what came out would have been very very interesting.

      Gibson is scum, the first thing Phil Goff Off needs to be pinned down on is a shake up of the port board and getting rid of Gibson and or both.

    • KJT 4.5

      Most likely that the fake competition between ports, and lack of co-operative planning, will result in NZ losing the major hub port to Australia or Singapore.

  4. Pasupial 5

    6 days remaining until the scheduled return of the Rawshark 2.

  5. Bearded Git 6

    This is hilarious-and would probably have been banned in an election here….(maybe not any more after the recent HC decision)


  6. Draco T Bastard 7

    Greece draws up drachma plans, prepares to miss IMF payment

    The drama comes after the creditors refused to rubber stamp Athens’ latest bid to unlock funds, raising objections over Syriza plans to boost union powers in collective bargaining and boost pensions for lower income groups.

    So the creditors are upset that Greece may help it’s people? This comes back to:

    When you loan someone money you’re taking the risk that you’re not going to get it back.

    And now they’re whinging that they won’t get it back despite knowing that risk.

    • Kevin 7.1

      Former European Commission head Jose Manuel Barroso warned Greece that they have a moral obligation to other states, describing the demands for more time and money as “completely unacceptable”.
      “We should remember that there are poorer countries that are lending money to Greece, so to propose a cut to their debt would be certain to receive a no from their partners,” he said.

      Poorer than Greece… lending them money…

      That makes sense.

  7. Philip Ferguson 8

    As we’re being blessed with increasing establishment palaver about Gallipoli, it’s important to remember just what a dirty political business it was. Nothing glorious about NZ’s motives – we were helping invade Turkey so that Britain (and France) could carve up the Ottoman Empire.

    Gallipoli: a dirty and bloody business: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/gallipoli-invasion-a-dirty-and-bloody-business/

    And for NZ society in WW1, you can’t go past Eldred-Grigg’s work: Stevan Eldred-Grigg’s The Great Wrong War: NZ society and WW1: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/stevan-eldred-griggs-the-great-wrong-war-nz-society-and-ww1/

    Plus Field Punishment Number One reviewed: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/field-punishment-no-1-reviewed-reminder-that-the-wars-not-over/

  8. Philip Ferguson 9

    I’ve stuck up on Redline a major feature on the catastrophe in the Middle East since the western powers invaded Iraq:

  9. Clemgeopin 10

    A Kiwi mum in Perth whose baby boy has a rare medical condition is pleading for help.

    Stacy Maitai had to give up her job to care for her baby and she now survives on less than $100 a week.

    Her son, Malakai, is seven months old and has never left hospital.

    “It breaks my heart that I can’t do that for him, I can’t do what I can to get him home,” Ms Maitai says.

    Ms Maitai is from Tolaga Bay and moved to Perth four years ago.

    Her baby boy has a rare condition called Pallister Killian Syndrome (PKS), and he can’t see or hear and struggles to breathe.

    A single mother of two, Ms Maitai has had to give up work to care for him, but because she’s not an Australian citizen, she survives on $180 a fortnight. She can barely pay for her bus ride to the hospital.

    “I’ve looked at every avenue to get support for us, but basically there is nothing, only because I am a Kiwi,” says Ms Maitai.

    “If Malakai was just a normal baby I would be able to part-time work, but because of my condition there’s a stop with my future because of what I can do and what I can’t do.”

    PKS is a rare developmental disorder, with only a few hundred people diagnosed with it. Two live here in New Zealand – one in Whangarei, the other in the Waikato.

    Read more:

    A ‘Hope for Malakai’ fundraising page has been set up. If you would like to contribute, here is the link to the fund raising page:


  10. Penny Bright 11

    How many of folks on The Standard, have actually read and considered the research and opinions of over 2000 registered architects and engineers for 9/11 truth?


    Given that 9/11 was arguably a convenient UNtruth upon which was based the (unlawful) invasion of Iraq, the never-ending (and very profitable) ‘War on Terror’, the mass surveillance and attacks on privacy of millions of people, and attacks on civil liberties and democratic rights of USA citizens under the Patriot Act?

    Remember – the focus of architects and engineers for 9/11 TRUTH is not WHO was behind and caused 9/11.

    The focus is HOW 9/11 happened.

    Could the heat generated by burning airline fuel (kerosene), cause the collapse of the Twin Towers in their footprint at ‘free fall’ speed?


    If so – how come your kerosene heater doesn’t melt when you fire it up?

    Penny Bright

    • Paul 11.1

      I agree Penny.
      Expect to cop some abuse for saying this.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 11.2

      What happens if you put a bunch of curtains and office furniture and stationary and other flammable items on your burning kerosene heater?

      PS: how does temperature affect the tensile strength of steel?

      • McFlock 11.2.1

        …and is her kerosene heater holding up a decent-sized building while being used</i.

    • McFlock 11.3

      For the upteenth time:

      1: it wasn’t “free fall speed”
      2: they didn’t collapse into their own “footprint”
      3: even if we assumed the fire consisted solely of “kerosene” and had no other environmental factors, it would have been hot enough to significantly weaken steel structures that were already overloaded due to having an aircraft collision damage the structure.

      Yes, bush/cheney used 9/11 and spurious intelligence on Al Qaeda connections as excuses to invade Iraq. That doesn’t mean that they engineered the 9/11 attacks.

      • The Murphey 11.3.1

        Yes, bush/cheney used 9/11 and spurious intelligence on Al Qaeda connections as excuses to invade Iraq. That doesn’t mean that they engineered the 9/11 attacks

        It makes them along with a number of others who share long standing associations the top of the suspects sheet

        So about those 28 redacted pages


        [lprent: Interesting, you just used a IP that has been previously used to permanently exclude a troll. A offshore cell IP. Explanation please. ]

      • Paul 11.3.2

        Most people who question the 9/11 fairy tale just want an open, full and transparent enquiry.
        Not a big ask.

        BTW, 9/11 was also the gateway for major incursions into our civil rights.
        Five Eyes and total surveillance could not have happened without 9/11.

        That’s why the events of that day are so important and need to be investigated properly.

        • te reo putake

          Five Eyes was going long before 9/11, fool. All that’s changed in the last 14 years is the technology.

          As for a full and transparent enquiry, the yanks went one better and had a commission. You wanna try reading the report, all the answers are in there. Or you can continue parroting the lines of the US right, boring friends and acquaintances shitless with your witterings. Happily, as time goes by, less and less time is wasted on this shit.

          Is it a nice day where you are? Why don’t you go for a walk?

          • Draco T Bastard

            You wanna try reading the report, all the answers are ██ █████.


            • te reo putake

              Yeah, that’s right, Draco. 800 pages that explain exactly what happened doesn’t count. The eyewitness testimony of thousands of New Yorkers doesn’t count. The deaths of 3000 people doesn’t count. Some mad righties with no alternatives frothing on the interwebs? Totes reliable.

              • felix

                The deaths of 3000 people doesn’t count.

                How is that relevant to the point you’re making?

                • McFlock

                  unless the redactions in the 911 commission report include bits like “and everything else in this report is fabricated and made up”, it’s erroneous to say that “all the answers are ██ █████.”

                  Included in the unredacted bits are analyses of how 3000 people died.

                  • felix

                    I didn’t think anyone was arguing that 3000 people hadn’t died though.

                    • McFlock

                      depends on which flavour truther you speak to, apparently

                    • felix

                      Seriously? That’s fucking nuts. Who here is arguing that?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      McFlock is just out on some sort of flight of fancy reading in more than what was there.

                    • felix

                      Weird thing for TRP to say.

                    • McFlock

                      There’s been a lot of that lately:
                      “doesn’t count” becoming “hadn’t died”, for example.

                    • felix

                      So where’s the relevance then?

                      All I’m doing is pointing out a weird non-sequitur. If you think there’s a reasonable explanation for it that doesn’t amount to ‘AND THEY HATE PUPPIES TOO!!!’ then I’m all ears.

                    • McFlock

                      Ok Felix:

                      Draco said all the answers are redacted.
                      TRP listed three things that supply or strongly imply answers: 800 pages, eyewitness testimony, and 3000 deaths. And TRP said that apparently according to DTB, none of those things count, but some rightwing nutter on the internet provides totally reliable evidence.

                      Are you up with the play, now?

                    • felix

                      I have been all along buddy.

                      It only makes sense if TRP is saying that Draco doesn’t believe those examples represent facts.

                      Draco contests the redacted report. TRP therefore reasonably attributes to Draco the belief that the report doesn’t count.

                      Then – in the exact same context – he attributes the belief that “the deaths of 3000 people doesn’t count”.

                      The problem with that is that the fact that 3000 people died isn’t evidence for or against any particular theory under discussion, crackpot or otherwise.

                    • McFlock

                      Like I say, it depends what flavour crackpot we’re dealing with. But whatever. If you want to focus on one out of three as some sort of victory of… whatever, that’s cool. What about the other two?

                    • felix

                      The other two relate to the discussion. The third one was a weird irrelevant accusation.

                      Are you up with the play yet?

                    • McFlock

                      Yeah I’ve figured out that you’re playing the “ignore things that don’t suit you, fixate on the one thing you think you can distract with” game.

                      Although personally I’d like every truther here to categorically state that they believe the official victim count is correct before I agree with your call on its relevance.

                    • felix

                      So go ahead and ask them, but playing games with the precise body count doesn’t change what’s already been said and it doesn’t open up any explanations for it neither.

                      And I’ll thank you not to ascribe motives to me when you seem to be having so much trouble even following what I’ve said, which really hasn’t been all that complicated.

                    • McFlock

                      Meh ok I’ll rephrase without suggesting motive:

                      You’ve spent half a dozen comments debating one of three things trp listed that contradict dtb’s statement that all the answers are redacted.
                      You have made no comments on the other points.
                      Dtb is still incorrect.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Here you go McFlock, France has an answer for you.

                      😈 😆

                    • felix

                      “You’ve spent half a dozen comments debating one of three things trp listed that contradict dtb’s statement that all the answers are redacted.
                      You have made no comments on the other points.”

                      Why should I respond to those other points, McFlock? I’m not disputing them.

                      If you like I can go through every comment on every thread on TheStandard and put a +1 after all the ones I agree with, but I reckon you might then want to know why I haven’t actively disputed all of the remainder.

                    • McFlock

                      Arguing about the relevance of a single point when the outcome of that argument is irrelevant to the outcome of the argument that the points were made in does seem remarkably postmodern of you, Felix.

                    • felix

                      Whereas sandwiching emotive attacks on your opponents in-between relevant rebuttals of their arguments is just an excersise in nasty dishonest bullshit.

                      So in this instance, sure I’ll be the post-modernist. Of course you could probably qualify too by arguing that being right about something means you can ascribe absolutely any view to people who are wrong about that thing, and that process doesn’t matter as long as the outcome doesn’t change.

                    • McFlock

                      It’s not dishonest. It’s the honest outcome of listening to ten years of nutbars fail to comprehend basic concepts like gravity and footprint. Given that and the nanothermite bullshit in links commenters have posted in this very thread, you’re lucky that only every other comment has been “emotive”.

                      While you’ve apparently been a fucking Vulcan all along. /sarc

                    • felix

                      No I’m just a Vulcan right now. It’s a post modern thing.

                      I understand your frustration on this topic. However there is no justification for accusing people of thinking 3000 deaths “doesn’t count” when they haven’t said anything of the sort.

                      Even if they’ve said other things that drive you nuts.

                      Even if they’re wrong about all of them.

                      Even when you have other valid points to make, that just isn’t one of them.

                      And although it’s right up TRP’s alley to fling that sort of monkey shit at the wall, it’s beneath you to defend it.

                    • Lanthanide

                      +1 felix

                      I had a browse of this thread and while I couldn’t really understand what you and McFlock were arguing about, your summary here clarifies it quite a bit. It really is very poor to attribute outrageous statements to people when they didn’t make them.

                    • McFlock

                      “doesn’t count” as evidence. Like the other two things in TRP’s list. If all the answers are redacted, nothing can be concluded from everything that is unredacted. Which is bullshit.

                      But even if your complaint were accurate, what’s your point: that it harms the reputation of a bunch of nutbars who seem to treat 911 as a hobby? It doesn’t.

                    • felix

                      Nope, the point is (still) that he didn’t say it. And you (still) don’t think that matters, because nutbars. Or something.

                      And it (still) wouldn’t be evidence anyway unless someone were denying that 3000 people died, which (still) no-one here seems to have done.

                    • McFlock

                      how did you get “denying that 3000 people died” from “The deaths of 3000 people doesn’t count”, again?

                    • felix

                      I didn’t, you did. Because that’s what would have to have been said in order for your “evidence” defense to stand.



                    • McFlock

                      Because that’s what would have to have been said in order for your “evidence” defense to stand.

                      You are incorrect. What would have to have been said is that the deaths of 3000 people do not count as evidence, not that they didn’t happen.

                      As in “oh fuck, all these people are dead. What can we infer from that? Nothing. Wow – 800 pages of report. what can we infer from that? Nothing. Holy crap, loads of eyewitnesses say that they saw planes fly into buildings. What can we infer from that? Nothing”.

                      All because some of one report was redacted. Which is what dtb said: “all the answers are ██ █████”.

                    • felix

                      “You are incorrect. What would have to have been said is that the deaths of 3000 people do not count as evidence, not that they didn’t happen.”

                      Only (yawn) if it was (yaaawn) someone’s argument that (yaaaaaawn) those people didn’t die, i.e. that the (yaaaaawn) event itself never occurred.

                      Which it (yaaaaaaaaaawn) still isn’t.

                      Seriously dude, I’ve explained this to you so many times now. You’re either not being honest or you have a serious problem with comprehension. And you’ve never struck me as a fool.

                      It’s all there in black and white for anyone who’s interested, I’m done wasting time with people who treat 911 as a hobby.

                    • McFlock

                      Only (yawn) if it was (yaaawn) someone’s argument that (yaaaaaawn) those people didn’t die, i.e. that the (yaaaaawn) event itself never occurred.

                      Your fixation on a logical fallacy is obviously due to fatigue.
                      Fuck off and get some sleep, then. Maybe you’ll understand basic logic when you wake up.

                      I’m done wasting time with people who treat 911 as a hobby.

                      And yet you go to such effort to defend their reputations.

              • The Murphey

                Q. How does the report explain exactly what happened ?

              • Paul

                You are unwilling to debate this topic reasonably

    • It absolutely did not fall at free fall speed. Why do people keep repeating this easily disproved “fact” when it has conclusively shown to be fucking rubbish?

      • Paul 11.4.1

        Have you seen the Architects and Engineers film?

        • TheContrarian

          You can see chunks of rubble, which are in free fall, fall faster than the building. Pretty clear evidence the building isn’t falling at free fall.

          • Paul

            Have you seen the Architects and Engineers film?

            • TheContrarian

              Yes. An it is still very clear that the building isn’t falling at free fall.

              • Paul

                It’s clear the official story is nonsense.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  How would you know? You haven’t even read the official story, nor are you equipped to assess its veracity, nor willing to debate any of your talking points.

                  For example, when Penny Bright displayed her ignorance of the tensile response of steel to temperature, and pretended that aviation fuel was the only flammable substance present, you agreed with her, then failed to respond to the rebuttal.

                  I take this as a demonstration of ignorance and bias rather than willful deceit. Apparently 0.1% (approx.) of the architects and engineers of the USA are similarly afflicted. So what?

      • Paul 11.4.2

        Name 1 steel framed skyscraper that has collapsed due to fire except on 9/11

        • TheContrarian

          I think you are missing something…was it just a fire or was it a fire caused by a fucking airliner smashing into the building at several 100’s of kms per hour.

        • McFlock

          but it wasn’t just “steel framed”, was it. And it wasn’t just a fire, was it.

          Or to flip it around, can you name a single building with similar construction design (as well as materials) that had a decent-sized passenger jet fly into it and it didn’t collapse? Because AFAIK plane crashes are running at two for two.

          • Paul

            No plane crashed into WTC7.
            Apparently it crashed due to fire.
            Are you aware of WTC7?

            • McFlock

              Indeed I am.
              So feel free to replace “decent-sized passenger jet fly into it” with “hit by debris from a larger building collapsing next to it”, if you wish.

              • Paul

                Hardly touched it.
                And there were only tiny fires.
                Are you aware the BBC reported its collapse before it happened.
                Have you seen clips of its free fall collapse?
                Clips of firefighters saying they were blowing it?
                Really have you actually looked at the mass of evidence supported by architects and engineers about WTC7?
                I take evidence from experts seriously.
                Who do you listen to?
                The governments flawed enquiry ?

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  You cherry pick the evidence that suits your beliefs, while either ignoring the vast majority of opinion, or implying that everyone who disagrees with you is corrupt.

                  It’s pathetic.

                • 4,954 Days. No evidence.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  “Hardly touched it”.

                  How would you know? You’re too lazy to gain an understanding of the engineering reports, and yet suddenly now you’re an expert on building fires.

                • McFlock

                  See, the thing is that I have seen those clips due to previous arguments. And they never live up to their advertising, or rely on heavy editing. Like your “free fall collapse” theory, it took significantly longer than free-fall time to collapse. The math blatantly disproves the “free fall” hyperbole. I argued this with CR last time, using footage and G calculators and everything.

                  I’m surprised you missed that debate.
                  And another one.
                  And another one.
                  And oh look, 2009.
                  But feel free to keep recycling the same old bullshit.

            • tinfoilhat

              Hi Paul

              I must admit i’m a bit bemused that people still debate what happened that day. I’ve never found it surprising that any of the buildings collapsed after the damage that they suffered.

              Can you explain what issue you have with the official story of plane crashes followed by fires and the other nearby buildings being collateral damage from the major two buildings collapsing ?

              • ropata

                I think the significant issue is that 911 was used as a pretext for extreme paranoia, the creation of a police state, and an endless war on terror in “the land of the free”.

                With the strange stock market fluctuations leading up to the disaster, and GWB’s weird reaction to it, it’s not too much of a leap to think it was an inside job.

                If it wasn’t a deliberate false flag operation it was a perfect opportunity for Bush, Cheney et al to live out their teenage wet dreams and play global war games (encouraged by their .mil sponsors).

                But as Hanlon’s razor goes (paraphrase) “never attribute to conspiracy that which is adequately explained by an epic fuck-up”

                • McFlock

                  I would have thought they could have come up with a better load of perpetrators than “Saudis trained in Afghanistan”, if it were all a bush/cheney concoction to invade Iraq.

                  Iraqi kurds, for example. Then throw in suspicion that it was Saddam not the Kurds.

                  I fully agree that it was an excuse to invade Iraq, and even that maybe they thought they might be able to build and protect an oil pipeline across Afghanistan as well. But a number of charlatans have also made a lot of money out of pretending way more happened than what seemed to happen on the day: nineteen hijackers gambling that hostages on four aircraft will work to an old template, while the hijackers switch it up a notch.

                  • ropata

                    Here’s a handy index to truther claims and the rebuttals thereof. Should save you some effort in future iterations of this argument.

                    Skepticism is healthy when applied to TPTB but not so useful when opining on matters requiring some training in engineering or science.

                    There are plenty of real conspiracies happening under our noses, no need to add a fictional one

                    (the military surveillance state, brazen bankster rorts, TPPA and the sale of NZ for example)

                    • Anne

                      There are plenty of real conspiracies happening under our noses, no need to add a fictional one.

                      (the military surveillance state, brazen bankster rorts, TPPA and the sale of NZ for example)

                      plus 100 ropata!

                    • tinfoilhat

                      “There are plenty of real conspiracies happening under our noses, no need to add a fictional one.”

                      Oh i agree with you on that – the 9/11 stuff all seems as a bit of a distraction from the more important stuff that you’ve highlighted.

  11. Penny Bright 12

    Any of you folk arguing against 9/11 TRUTH ever cut steel with an oxy-acetylene gas axe ?

    Familiar with the term ‘heat sink’?

    Have you actually bothered reading the research of over 2000 qualified architects and engineers on this matter?



    Just have a look for yourselves – with an open mind?

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

  12. adam 13

    Any Rand – why is she still a thing?

    • Paul 13.1

      Believing the official 9/11 story.
      Why is that still a thing?

      • te reo putake 13.1.1

        Trolling. Why is that still a thing?

        • Paul

          No…debating a vital topic that makes sense of the the events since 2001.
          The Elephant in the Room
          You appear in denial.

          • One Anonymous Bloke


          • McFlock

            Ever think you might be wrong, that the events have already been pretty thoroughly explained by the “official” story?

            • Paul

              Most polls show that increasing numbers of people question 9/11.
              We now know the US government lied about WMD in Iraq, chemical weapons in Syria and through Snowden we know they’ve lied about spying.
              And so you take the fairy tale about 9/11 as gospel truth.
              Most people no longer believe the official tale.

              • McFlock

                You started with “increasing numbers of people” and finished with “most people”. In one comment.

                And yet only 2000 architects and engineers are in that group…

              • Most polls? Go on, cite me baby! Last time I looked, one in twenty Americans believed Elvis was still alive. I’m told quite a few of them are also convinced that God exists. Funny old world, eh?

  13. ropata 14

    via the Irascible Curmudgeon, in the sidebar
    There’s trouble brewing in Middle Earth
    1. Huge dairy slump, down 45% since 2013
    2. Overall exports down 27% since last February
    3. World dairy prices slide 10.8% in 2 weeks, in anticipation of a huge oversupply
    4. Auckland property CVs out of date, 20% jump in median price in 18 months

    It must be an Anglo-Saxon disease. You can see it in London, in Sydney, Melbourne, New York, Toronto. The new normal way to make your failing economy look ‘healthy’ is to sell assets to any rich foreigner or investment fund who comes knocking, no matter what the consequences, short term or long term. In all these cities, young people can forget about buying a home, that allegedly government supported dream.

    And everyone but the rich are pushed out ever further into the boondock burbs. It’s a ‘policy’ that kills cities, of necessity. Cities need people, real people, all people, poor and rich and old and young, that have grown up where they live, they love where they live, they are interested in making it look good and feel good. This is an ongoing and organic process, because cities are alive, and yes, you can kill them. But that’s for another story.

    …The country’s prime minister since 2008, John Key, used to work at Merrill Lynch and the New York Fed, and that sort of background guarantees valiant efforts to sell anything in the country that’s not bolted down, and take an axe to what is. It also guarantees zero initiative to become self-sufficient.

    Here’s Bernard Hickey:

    China embarked on an infrastructure spree after the global financial crisis. Over the three years to 2013, China poured 6.4 gigatonnes of concrete, which was more than was poured in the US in the entire 20th century. All that concrete needed reinforcing with steel and China didn’t have enough iron ore and coking coal to make it. That building boom created a glut of apartments and debt, which China now needs to digest.

    … iron ore production in Australia has only now ramped up to its peak levels. Weak demand met high supply to produce a price slump. This all may seem irrelevant to New Zealand, but it’s not. The Australian dollar has fallen in response to the iron ore crash, while New Zealand’s dollar has remained strong because our economy is humming along, thanks to building surges in Christchurch and Auckland and plenty of spending and investment.

    …The biggest log-trucking firm in the Nelson region was recently put into voluntary administration owing $14m, partly because of a slump in log exports to China. New Zealand’s logs are now mostly shipped to China to be timber boxing for the concrete being poured in its new “ghost” cities. The Chinese iron ore butterfly has flapped and now we’re seeing Gold Coast winter breaks become cheaper and logging contracts rarer.

    Time is winding down for NZ’s housing bubble ponzi scheme

  14. Bearded Git 15

    On Radio NZ news just now:

    “Taxpayers Union Executive Director Jordan Williams welcomes the return of 10 years passports.”

    Why do they continue to quote this star of “Dirty Politics” and his far-right group?

    Anybody out there know the structure and status of of the Taxpayers Union; how many members; who funds it?

  15. Draco T Bastard 16

    Over the years I’ve watched lots of sci-fi on TV and at the movies. Quite a few of them would have cars and trucks in them with dashboards that’d make a battleships sensors officer jealous.

    and then this turned up on twitter.

  16. AsleepWhlieWalking 17

    India to use weaponized drones for crowd control

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