Open mike 07/04/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 7th, 2023 - 133 comments
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133 comments on “Open mike 07/04/2023 ”

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  1. Mac1 1
    7 April 2023 at 9:22 am

    Thought I'd get in before the Open Mike adopts its new norm of debate pattern…

    Have been walking with a group of mostly rural women and overheard the leading group of three discuss politics. Luxon was described as not up to it and I think the field is open for some headway to be made among rural women who are a bit more centrist than Groundswell-oriented right wingers.

    Some of these walkers are not well-informed and have social media and mass media driven misinformation for example about why nurses are emigrating and to what jobs, and the effect of minimum and family wage increases upon the cost of living.

    Another told me she hated paradise ducks and believed that they were imported by early colonialists.

    Very fit, older women, great walkers and talkers but not open to challenge; so as a new man in the group but known already to be of the Left through my previous public persona I will bite my tongue and wait for inclusion.

    Interesting to get those views, though, and also to be receiving the local MPs newsletters which are also a window into the world of the Right.

    The latest offering # 95 dismisses Labour's achievements over five years as bumper sticker policies, whereas National's education and electricity reforms will be world beaters.

    • bwaghorn 1.1
      7 April 2023 at 10:02 am

      Nothing like listening to joe/jill public to make you realize how unengaged and or thick alot if them are.

      And paradise ducks are a barstard in big numbers

      • Mac1 1.1.1
        7 April 2023 at 10:18 am

        And they are in big numbers, now in European times, because as herbivores with a taste for seed and grain their native habitat was hugely increased by open field farming. Where I am sitting now I see flocks of starlings in hundreds which fed on the ripening oat crop on the other side of the river, upon the leavings after harvest along with ducks, gulls and now sheep, and then fly off a hundred metres to dine on grapes. I have seen two paradise ducks here to raise a brood of eleven which they proudly paraded past my patio last season, but hundreds of starlings swirling in flocked flight.

        • Visubversa 1.1.1.1
          7 April 2023 at 11:18 am

          Yes, the Paradise Shellducks are very good parents. The ones I know usually fledge as many as they hatch as the male is very aggressive. The main predators of the ducklings are big eels, but if the parents don't put the little ones in the water too early, they tend to be OK.

        • Adrian 1.1.1.2
          7 April 2023 at 12:52 pm

          I'm glad the bloody starlings are all over at your place this season Mac!

      • Mac1 1.1.2
        7 April 2023 at 10:36 am

        "Nothing like listening to joe/jill public to make you realize how unengaged and/or thick a lot of them are."

        And the task is to persuade enough of them to return a good government in five months time by being educated and reminded enough to see through the miasma of misinformation, the whinging, the lies and the greed.

        • bwaghorn 1.1.2.1
          7 April 2023 at 11:02 am

          Your farm wife mates will vote national, no matter who's leading it,

          • Shanreagh 1.1.2.1.1
            7 April 2023 at 12:14 pm

            Yes as 'they' say at the Southland farm of my sister & bro in law.

            'If you stood a sheepdog on a mailbox with a blue ribbon around its neck many in Southland would vote for it. '

            Many don't have a good choice of printed newsmedia which is still very popular, as internet connections are still not as reliable.

      • Terry 1.1.3
        7 April 2023 at 11:28 am

        bwaghorn – As I’ve got older, I’ve come to the conclusion that people who see things differently than how I see things, doesn’t make them thick.

        Looking back, when I was 18, I was at “peak intelligence” I knew absolutely everything and I was totally awesome. Then over the years my 6 pack turned into a keg, and I slowly realised that I didn’t know that much at all.

        What I do have now is life experience, so what have I’ve learned? That people who believe that they have the answers are generally a walking talking example of Dunning-Kruger. They themselves have no idea how stupid they are, and they inflict their stupidity on others.

        • Anne 1.1.3.1
          7 April 2023 at 11:56 am

          "Looking back, when I was 18, I was at “peak intelligence”

          Wow. You were ahead of me. I didn't reach peak intelligence until my mid 20s.

          I wouldn't say we were Dunning Kruger sufferers – just had more growing up to do. smiley

          • In Vino 1.1.3.1.1
            7 April 2023 at 6:53 pm

            Well said, Anne. I am not sure if my intelligence ever peaked at all, but would also opt for mid-20s if obliged.

            The Dunning Kruger effect may be important, but I think we should not underestimate the Homer Simpson "D'oh" effect..

        • bwaghorn 1.1.3.2
          7 April 2023 at 11:59 am

          When you hear people regurgitate half arsed talking points and blindly belive mistruths, that's thick , having different opinions is is not,

          Although one would think that once the written word,and science came into life we would easily be following the what worked best last time this happened method, Of government

          • bwaghorn 1.1.3.2.1
            7 April 2023 at 12:00 pm

            I was in the bottom of a bottle fro 18 to 30 odd so knew little cared less

          • Shanreagh 1.1.3.2.2
            7 April 2023 at 12:18 pm

            Tend to agree with this bwaghorn.

            That is why I think Labour needs to look at the degree of difficulty on some of its policy statements.

            My view is that they may be pitched to an expectation of the general public having more ability to assimilate information and tease out the issues than they really have.

          • Corey 1.1.3.2.3
            7 April 2023 at 5:27 pm

            "When you hear people regurgitate half arsed talking points and blindly belive mistruths"

            everyone whether they are left, right , center or non aligned does this though… The left , center and right constantly quote half truthes to back up their prejudices.

            All Individuals in the general public will believe something that is bullshit and and untrue.

            What is concerning is seeing people on the left increasingly unwilling to engage and win over people who believe some shit the left doesn't believe in, because the right is damn well willing to engage and win over people who disagree with them.

            They may disagree with the left on how to do it, but Most kiwis don't want austerity, most kiwis want housing to be a human right and want far,far,far far more houses built, most kiwis believe in a minimum gauranteed standard of living, want better transport, far better healthcare and wanna eradicate poverty..

            Its crazy that the left fail so often, to focus on engaging with the public on the things the majority agree with us on and instead we focus more on what we disagree with the public on.

            • Anker 1.1.3.2.3.1
              7 April 2023 at 6:49 pm

              Often it seems that the left want to write issues off and they do this by saying that person is alt right or right wing or a Nazi. And for those people on the left who do this, then its game over for that idea, belief, person etc etc. frankly its weak.

            • pat 1.1.3.2.3.2
              7 April 2023 at 6:53 pm

              As always the question is how…something the (modern) left appear to struggle with

    • Anne 1.2
      7 April 2023 at 10:23 am

      Good people Mac1 and good women as I am sure you know. They have their urban counterparts but neither have had the opportunity to hear the other side of the argument. When they do, it does not mean they change their loyalty but rather they have a better understanding of how others are faring and feeling. That is a good start.

      Over the years I have had more friendships with women who come from 'the other side' than I have on my own side. When it comes to friendship, politics does not loom large.

      • Mac1 1.2.1
        7 April 2023 at 10:39 am

        Yes, Anne. "Good people Mac1 and good women as I am sure you know." They show support, compassion, and hospitality but there are 'sides'.

      • Terry 1.2.2
        7 April 2023 at 11:35 am

        So true Anne, I grew up in the city and would sometimes go and stay on Great aunt & uncles farm for school holidays.

        I many respects the country folk were more open minded in some than the left wing managerial class I grew up with.

  2. Stephen D 2
    7 April 2023 at 9:44 am

    So many political pundits saying Jacinda didn’t achieve much on promised policies. I know we’re not supposed to use the Covid word as an excuse anymore. However when the entire government, including the civil service, is consumed for the best part of 3 years dealing with the pandemic, how was the PM supposed to deliver other policies?

    • Mac1 2.1
      7 April 2023 at 10:09 am

      And yet, listen to Ardern's valedictory from Wednesday and she enumerated some of her achievements. Policies and positive social action was taken by her government.

      For example, around our Grey Power table we mention winter warmth payments, a big rise in Super. We drive with a reduction in fuel taxes. We receive free vaccines and boosters, prescription subsidies, cheaper travel.

      A bit more than bumper stickers, that!

  3. Anker 3
    7 April 2023 at 9:46 am
    • Thanks Mac 1. Always good to get out of one’s bubble and hear what people are thinking
    • Mac1 3.1
      7 April 2023 at 10:43 am

      Thanks, Anker. There are opportunities for us to get out of our bubbles. For me Grey Power, walking groups, public meetings of all sorts, health support groups, Friday night sessions over a good Imperial Stout, as tonight hopefully will be….

  4. Ed1 4
    7 April 2023 at 9:49 am

    I would be interested in the discussion as to why nurses are emigrating and to what jobs – my feeling is that some is normal wanting to see more of the world; for some wage comparisons are not particularly important, for others they will not allow for the need for medical insurance, or for many service costs being higher due to those higher basic salaries.

    Regarding Labour's achievements, it would be good to have more than bumper stickers so that we can give a convincing argument about the real substance of those achievements – there was a good chart illustrating the ''leading the world'' performance in keeping deaths due to Covid lower than anywhere else; but there does not seem to be a repository of such convincing material in a form that can be included in social media or an email.

  5. bwaghorn 5
    7 April 2023 at 10:13 am

    https://fortune.com/2023/04/05/end-of-capitalism-inflation-greedflation-societe-generale-corporate-profits/

    Greedflation!!

    How to combat it , price controlling is risky imho.

    Being yanks the thought of tax and redistribute didn't enter their tiny mind

  6. Peter 6
    7 April 2023 at 10:47 am

    One little part in Shayne Currie's article about the closing of Today FM struck me. A quote from Duncan Garner.

    “It’s appalling. We lost our jobs in front of the country, live. How that’s fair, reasonable, dignified and done in good faith is beyond me.”

    Garner who with Judith Collins saw to the end of the political career Iain Lees-Galloway in front of the country, live.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/justin-marshall-misses-selection-for-sky-rugby-world-cup-team-in-france-stuff-newsroom-gong-concerns-and-the-leaked-slack-messages-rnzs-ethical-dilemma-over-kiri-allan-speech-today-fm-staff-call-in-lawyers-media-insider-with-shayne-currie/MA3TB25ARJEGFBDVVIEGOQ574Q/

    • Liberty Belle 6.1
      7 April 2023 at 11:05 am

      I don't have too much sympathy for Garner, after all the station ratings were shite. However, from the outside looking in, the process does seem to have been particularly brutal. There are ways of handling these situations that give the people affected (and I'm talking specifically about people who are not highly paid media 'personalities') more dignity and space to process what is happening.

    • Belladonna 6.2
      7 April 2023 at 11:11 am

      Mmmm. They only 'lost their jobs in front of the country, live' – because they didn't respect the employment process (a meeting scheduled for midday) – and chose to release this information 'live', earlier.

      At that stage there were, I'm sure, staff who didn't know. Garner and Tova O'Brien removed their opportunity to have this information conveyed to them in a way which was 'fair, reasonable, and dignified' (good faith is a totally separate issue)

      I understand and accept that they were hurt and distressed by the situation. But they also acted unprofessionally.

    • Incognito 6.3
      7 April 2023 at 11:15 am

      It did feel like the Smiling Assassin meeting the Wolf of Wall Street meeting the Apprentice, very cutthroat old school. Behind the scenes, reputations need to be upheld.

  7. Janice 7
    7 April 2023 at 11:12 am

    How do they expect women to answer the call to get vaccinated before giving birth to protect their baby when NZR keeps exhorting 'pregnant people' to get their jab before giving birth? I am sick of these ridiculous pronouns that cancel women. even the newsreader on the 11am news hesitated before saying it for the second time. Sorry not up yet so can’t link.

    • Visubversa 7.1
      7 April 2023 at 11:24 am

      Amazing how we got through the entirety of "Blue September" (Prostate Awareness Month) without a single man being referred to as a prostate owner, a testicle bearer, a penis person or an ejaculator.

      Just shows that this is all about erasing women for the benefit of gender ideology.

    • SPC 7.2
      7 April 2023 at 11:34 am

      The funny thing is, if someone does give birth while identifying as a transgender man – TVNZ would do a story about it.

    • Terry 7.3
      7 April 2023 at 12:18 pm

      My youngest niece has managed to get off side with a clique at her work. She’s pregnant, & she’s been called a pregnant person, and she’s replied that she’s a pregnant woman!

      She was called into a meeting with her manager (male) and told that she’s making some people (a transgender women and her 4 or 5 trans allies, all gay or bisexual men by the way) feel unsafe. For the following reasons; she’s 25 & married (so too conservative for her age), pregnant with 4th child (this makes a transgender woman at her work feel uncomfortable), has had a baby shower with the gender of the baby revealed (offensive to transgender women), she’s a European woman married to an Asian man (So she’s taking advantage of a person of colour).

      Her manager pointed out that it’s all BS, however he’s obligated to have the discussion with her. The workplace has the Rainbow Tick so he’s basically covering his butt.

      • Belladonna 7.3.1
        7 April 2023 at 12:36 pm

        Goodness. I do hope she's documenting all of this. Sounds like a PG case for workplace bullying, if it continues. None of the elements revealed have anything to do with her work or workplace – they're her private business (marital status, pregnancy, number/sex of children, race of SO – all prohibited grounds for discrimination)

        I'd also be cautious about the meeting with the manager. If it is recorded that she's had a 'counselling' meeting – that goes on her HR record. And, if/when the manager leaves, and a one less in contact with the real world arrives, it could be used against her.

        I'd follow up with the union (if she's a member) – and get them to help her draft an email to the manager – basically saying: Thanks for the meeting. At which we agreed that ….. (all the above points), have nothing to do with my work or performance; and that any complaints made about them, have been proven to be groundless.

        • bwaghorn 7.3.1.1
          7 April 2023 at 12:44 pm

          I'd find a company that isn't full of idjits and go work there

        • weka 7.3.1.2
          7 April 2023 at 12:52 pm

          it as a shocking story.

          unfortunately there's a good chance her union won't support her because what she said is considered transphobic.

          Free Speech Union might be the go.

          • Belladonna 7.3.1.2.1
            7 April 2023 at 1:18 pm

            Does anyone else find it …. ironic…. that the woman is being mis-gendered: her preferred group noun is "women", rather than "people" – with the qualifying adjective 'pregnant' indicating her current gestational status.

            If someone tells me their preferred pronoun is ‘her’ – I would be downright rude to refer to her as ‘them’ – just because that’s my preferred pronoun.

            • weka 7.3.1.2.1.1
              7 April 2023 at 3:25 pm

              This is why gender ideology is inherently sexist and regressive. Trans people are allowed to define their own selves, women aren't.

              I use they as the default now.

        • Anne 7.3.1.3
          7 April 2023 at 3:14 pm

          I'd also be cautious about the meeting with the manager. If it is recorded that she's had a 'counselling' meeting – that goes on her HR record. And, if/when the manager leaves, and a one less in contact with the real world arrives, it could be used against her.

          That kind of thing is not uncommon. I had it happen to me years ago.

          Two former senior public servants approached me with a serious allegation. I made it clear to them it was false and since nothing further happened I thought it was the end of the matter. But further down the track – and after a prolonged period of bullying, intimidation and other disturbing incidents – I was to discover the allegation had been placed on record and never rescinded. It ended up causing me a huge amount of trouble and distress.

          I later learned a jealous acquaintance (a woman) had made the allegation and the recipients chose to accept it without any attempt to seek verification. My word was apparently not regarded as good enough.

      • weka 7.3.2
        7 April 2023 at 12:50 pm

        Some of her options:

        • join a union that supports women's sex based rights (Free Speech Union probably)
        • find a GC lawyer
        • join or contact Speak Up For Women, they've got experience now with legal issues.

        None of the above mean having to take action now, they're insurance. Her boss might be covering his butt, and if push comes to shove he's not going to side with her.

      • Terry 7.3.3
        7 April 2023 at 1:37 pm

        Yeah she is a member of the union, and I believe that she’s casually mentioned that her Dad & older sister are lawyers.

        I think this is just one clique defending their turf so to speak. My niece and tall, slim, educated, elegant, private school educated (I’m from the poor side of family), she’s always been very independent and strong willed. So others are drawn to her. I think she has often been excluded from the popular clique, but she’s always developed her own clique, which can be threatening to those with low emotional intelligence.

        But she’s working for a bank, well paid, looked after. So definitely doesn’t want to leave.

        • Liberty Belle 7.3.3.1
          7 April 2023 at 1:52 pm

          The only thing I would add to Weka's advice is for her to always have a support person if she's called to a meeting, and to ensure any future meetings are documented. Also, you say that she doesn't want to leave. I get that, but I have seen this scenario play out and there is a good chance her colleagues could make things very unpleasant for her. In that situation, unless she is extremely resilient and thick skinned, it can be better for a person's health just to walk away.

          • Shanreagh 7.3.3.1.1
            7 April 2023 at 2:25 pm

            Also document, document, document.

            Start with a time lines then flesh this out with copies of emails, texts, updates on group conversations. Keep off site ie not on main bank server/keep copy printed out in locked private drawer.

            This is a ghastly sounding case and I may be wrong but I thought there were special provisions about not denigrating a woman because of pregnancy.

            • Liberty Belle 7.3.3.1.1.1
              7 April 2023 at 2:31 pm

              yes

            • Molly 7.3.3.1.1.2
              7 April 2023 at 3:45 pm

              Is this it?

              Human Rights Act (1993) – Prohibited grounds of discrimination

              https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/latest/DLM304475.html

              First entry:

              21 Prohibited grounds of discrimination

              (1) For the purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are—

              (a) sex, which includes pregnancy and childbirth:

              • Shanreagh …
                7 April 2023 at 4:37 pm

                Yes thanks Molly….I used to have all this stuff at my finger tips.

                When I was working if you made a big P of your self about another's pregnancy and more or less the door was waiting, after a process. When Maternity leave first came in we had a spate of grumpy males thinking that women had just got an advantage…..

                You know an advantage to go along with the mostly lower salary starting rates, lower rates all round because of broken service,…….etc etc.

                How can a natural process make people feel uncomfortable. It is not as if a pregnancy can be left at the lift door and picked up after leaving work.

      • Anker 7.3.4
        7 April 2023 at 3:45 pm

        Thanks for posting about this Terry.

        Its shows the insanity of the trans rights movement.

      • Nic the NZer 7.3.5
        7 April 2023 at 9:26 pm

        Can somebody explain why human resources doesn't always have a standard policy which avoids being suborned into bullying employees?

  8. SPC 8
    7 April 2023 at 11:33 am

    An EQC person wants better decision-making as to where we build.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131707548/we-need-to-be-smarter-about-planning-where-we-build

    There is so much more, loss of good soil land for housing and the NACT Labour agreement to allow urban area development free for all (and end earlier focus on transport spine development – real urban planning).

    And lest we forget, the old pre Super City Auckland had plans to prevent building in areas recently flooded …

  9. Blade 9
    7 April 2023 at 12:08 pm

    The woke give Sean Plunket a good hating. In my opinion after reading this article, their cause may have been better served by keeping their gobs shut.(?)

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/131689488/motivation-behind-broadcaster-sean-plunkets-define-a-woman-question-challenged

    One thing that really worries me about the Trans movement is their possible influence on impressionable youngesters – kids trying to find their way in life, who are having trouble fitting in, who are looking for answers.

    The chap in this clip became trans after listening to a podcast and finding enlightenment- he was really a woman. He had that affirmed by all those close to him. Yet under questioning by the speaker his tenuous arguments as to why he's a woman fell apart and he reverted to that great woke talisman of protection, he was feeling unsafe.

    The clip unfortunately has Conservative commentary. Sorry about that. Just skip along to different parts.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w0sK_ky_aY&t=19s

    • weka 9.1
      7 April 2023 at 12:54 pm

      that link is broken, can you please find the right one.

    • Shanreagh 9.2
      7 April 2023 at 1:34 pm

      The link is to a talk that a right wing speaker Matt Walsh gave.

      I linked to the extract when a trans medic was not able to answer of what they would do, EMT wise, when confronted with a man who said they were having a miscarriage.

      Matt Walsh

      3:08 PM · Apr 5, 2023

      This link is to the concluding parts of the speech he gave

      Matt Walsh

      There were a number of trans people in the audience tonight and I ended my speech speaking directly to them. The truth is that I’m actually trying to help these people, unlike all of those who “affirm” them

      @MattWalshBlog

      ·

      Apr 5

      3:33 AM · Apr 7, 2023

      Here is the link, below, to the sad interview he had with the man who was saying he was a woman.

      I asked a “trans woman” to explain how he knows that he’s a woman. The answer was about as coherent as you’d expect

      2:27 PM · Apr 5, 2023

      I have commented before that quite bit of the thoughtful work on the trans debate/ideology seems to be coming from the right.

      I hope these links are clickable to the actual parts of the speech.

      ETA I am coming to the thought that what the trans lobby is doing is actually cruel to the well meaning individuals who spoke. Rather than saying men can be women, ie changing biological sex which is impossible, the call could be better made as an acceptance of the gender that a person wants to be identified as.

      The need would then move to accepting people as they want to present themselves rather than trying to force a biological impossibility on the population.

      • Shanreagh 9.2.1
        7 April 2023 at 1:48 pm

        One of my links is broken…..aaaah

        The concluding remarks from Matt Walsh

        3:47 PM · Apr 5, 2023

      • Liberty Belle 9.2.2
        7 April 2023 at 2:02 pm

        The thing about Matt Walsh is that he speaks simple truth. He appeared on an episode of Dr Phil, and was by far the most coherent voice. This link is to the full video to provide context. The salient exchanges are from 12:30, where Matt debates the definition of woman.

        • Shanreagh 9.2.2.1
          7 April 2023 at 2:12 pm

          Thanks I have watched the whole speech. He is a great speaker.

          I did hesitate to put the link to the trans medic up as it was from a RW commentator. I started putting the links up yesterday including a couple from an, also RW group, called Gays against Grooming.

          • Shanreagh 9.2.2.1.1
            7 April 2023 at 2:17 pm

            Oh oh

            A great interviewer Winston Marshall interviews Matt Walsh, above

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPdPoSmGYEk

          • weka 9.2.2.1.2
            7 April 2023 at 3:00 pm

            MW also is an anti-feminist patriarch who wants to roll back women's rights. Who are you trying to convince here? Because progressives will have a hard time believing him once they know who he is (despite his videos being good at explaining the issues).

            • Liberty Belle 9.2.2.1.2.1
              7 April 2023 at 3:11 pm

              Matt Walsh has views I don't agree with. Posie Parker has views I don't agree with. There are many people who have views we may not agree with, but speak powerfully into certain issues. I just happen to believe that on this issue, he nails it.

              • weka …
                7 April 2023 at 3:24 pm

                sure, but you're rw, yeah? From the left and for feminists, it's not a matter of 'disagreeing with' him, it's the fact that he actively is seeking to remove womens rights.

                • weka …
                  7 April 2023 at 3:27 pm

                  I mean, I get it, I was going to write a post with that video in it, but I'd have to spend 600 words pointing out how much of an arsehole he is to women and what that means in the sex/gender wars.

                  Very annoying that the video does such a good job of showing the issues.

                • Liberty Belle …
                  7 April 2023 at 3:42 pm

                  Yes I'm from the political right. And I'm pro-woman. I would like to think I'm a feminist, but I don't even know what that word means any more.sad

                  • weka …
                    7 April 2023 at 3:44 pm

                    I'm a fan of feminism as women's liberation

                  • RedLogix …
                    7 April 2023 at 7:31 pm

                    The problem that weka does not want to say out loud is simple and obvious. In very simple terms left wing feminism spent decades telling us that gender roles do not matter and women can do anything men do if they want to.

                    Then came along the trans crowd who bizarrely insist that biological sex does not matter and men can be women if they want to. Similar logic, just the consequences are reflected back onto women in a way they quite reasonably do not like.

                    Of course social conservatives never really agreed with either proposition, and that they are the firmest and clearest opponents of trans ideology is only to be expected. That feminists find this very annoying is also very predictable.

                    • pat …
                      7 April 2023 at 7:53 pm

                      Except that in many respects 'girls can do anything'….if by that you mean (exclusion from) historical male occupations.

                      Whether society allows them to however is another question altogether.

                    • RedLogix …
                      7 April 2023 at 8:23 pm

                      @pat

                      Well it turned out that when women obtained access to any traditional male role they liked, it was the largely high status professional, political or physically undemanding roles they had in mind. Dirty, dangerous and unpleasant jobs undertaken in all weathers – like sewerage maintenance for example – were not what they chose at all. Turned out the traditional, patriarchal oppressive male gender roles were not always as wonderful as they were made out to be.

                      But that is a small matter. More interesting was the idea that males and females were – other than the bare biological essentials – interchangeable in their gender roles as parents, and if women could do anything men could, then logically fatherhood could be generally regarded as optional, or dispensed with altogether.

                      For most people sex is essentially a private matter, marriage being a public institution intended to protect families – and at root is a social contract between a biological man and woman that was of mutual benefit to both parents and especially their children.

                      And the further we publicly moved away from this ideal, the less comfortable they became.

                    • RedLogix …
                      7 April 2023 at 8:46 pm

                      My general point being that for most people traditional gender roles still carry real significance – no matter how patriarchal and oppressive the feminists tell us they are.

                    • Molly …
                      7 April 2023 at 9:10 pm

                      You might be interested in this blogpost by Maya Forstater, (who won a tribunal case in the UK, which said her statement that sex was binary and immutable was worthy of respect in a democratic society):

                      On Gender-critical disputes

                      …While I recognise the painful split that Jane describes, her division of the two teams into “true feminists” and “gender-critical identitarianism” is off the mark.

                      I think what we are seeing is the contradictions of a philosophy that does not make sense (it envisages a world where male violence is universal, but not biological; where women and men’s interests are negotiated on a “sex-class” basis; where family can be replaced by collective, and where prosperity exists without capitalism). It is another case of when ideology meets reality.

                      By contrast, what might be called “Mumsnet feminism” focuses on the messy material reality of mothers, fathers (good and bad, present and absent) and children, who need care and protection. It may be low on theory but it can see gender ideology and queer theory for what it is; an attack on the social structures that protect children (many of which are derided as part of the patriarchy by those who see the world this way).

                      A key theme running through criticisms of the “populists” in the magazine is disapproval at calling-out the behaviour of male sexual deviants in dresses, and at “othering” people who pretend to be the opposite sex….

                    • RedLogix …
                      7 April 2023 at 9:47 pm

                      @Molly.

                      Yes that post navigates the perilous shoals of this debate rather well. If I might quibble on some aspects with the author, I would imagine we could at least have a fine constructive conversation on the basis of what she has expressed here.

                      The idea that we have a soul that regardless of our sex, stands equally alongside all other humans before our creator, should not be so lightly discarded. In my view it is the basis for the claim that all people are equal before the law, to be accorded equal dignity and opportunity, and lies at the core of our common humanity and universal rights.

                      But this does not mean all humans are equivalent, or equally interchangeable, in every context. While a soul is an essentially immaterial abstraction, our physical bodies are not. And the multitude of ways in which these bodies differ matters a great deal in the way we should treat people in order to be just.

                      By way of a trivial illustration – if my partner and I take a day trip somewhere, the more art galleries and museums we can pack in the happier she will be. On the other hand if I can find an unexplored bush track I will be happy. Treating us both the same erases these interests and preferences and neither of us will be happy. On the other hand if we mutually respect each other's differences and constructively accommodate them – taking turns at doing art galleries and bush tracks, or somehow combining both – the outcome is more likely to be good for both of us.

                    • Liberty Belle …
                      7 April 2023 at 9:54 pm

                      All three of your comments are thought provoking and succinct, thank you.

                      "Of course social conservatives never really agreed with either proposition, and that they are the firmest and clearest opponents of trans ideology is only to be expected. "

                      This is an especially interesting comment. I am, in many ways, a social conservative, and my position on trans ideology comes from 2 places.

                      1. Much of the trans ideology is coming from a place of denying objective reality. Trans women are not women. They cannot ever fully understand what it is to be a woman, and accommodating the idea that they can is delusional.

                      2. I am pro woman. I believe women have a right to establish rules around their own spaces to the exclusion of others if that makes them safe.

                      Rather than address the issues being faced by the trans community in a meaningful way, we are listening to a small but vocal representation that is increasingly pushing a violent and divisive agenda.

                      FRANCE: Violent Trans Activists Force Cancellation Of Symposium Supporting Afghan And Iranian Women – Reduxx

                    • Shanreagh …
                      7 April 2023 at 10:26 pm

                      Thanks for your comments RL.
                      I think you have got the biology/gender stuff a bit confused. This old feminist was always saying that 'women can do anything' -sure some things may be difficult strength-wise but we can do anything or should be given the chance to. We were not fighting on gender grounds as sex/gender were indistinguishable in those days.

                      My sister, slightly younger than me, still works in a male dominated, physically tough mainly outdoor environment. As she has got older she has looked at mechanical aids mainly in lifting that have been useful.

                      So useful that the business is now using them across the whole workplace. This is because they protect younger backs as well as older backs, workers do not get so physically tired and are able to really look at the intrinsically valuable areas of work not the manual labour parts. So smaller slighter people of both sexes can be employed and keep on being employed.

                      I have come across this view that because women made a thing of 'women and girls can do anything' ie not tied to the home or traditional sex role stereotypes that our 'punishment', often described in words like 'irony' is that now we are to put up with the trans community trying to change the meaning of biology,

                      This is far from ironic to me. It smacks of a barely suppressed glee that women have got 'what they should have known was coming to them, perhaps they/we should have 'known better.'…..I reject this framing.

                      The patriarchy is reasserting itself. This I have no problem in agreeing with. I can run an argument that seeing as men want to wear dresses and go into women's toilets and changing rooms that this is just 'boys being boys' and nothing to get concerned about.

                      The other view is that the patriarchy has said 'this is what we want to do so get out of our way'. The patriarchy supports men whether they call/are themselves men or we females call them transwomen.

                      Of course they have 'handmaidens', who support the idea. Riley Gaines found the handmaidens for the trans community shrieking and pulling at her as she made her way out of SFSU.

                      https://www.foxnews.com/politics/riley-gaines-ambushed-physically-hit-after-saving-womens-sports-speech-san-francisco-state

                      Simone de Beauvoir “the oppressor would not be so strong if he did not have accomplices among the oppressed”

                      While traditional roles or mother (at home), father(at work) children suit many people they do not suit everybody. If it is one thing that has happened is that there is greater flexibility across roles, timing of work etc. I think this has benefited males as well as females.

                      I don't believe it is useful to frame the concern for women as being only 'feminists' who are concerned. Many of the women I speak to etc were profoundly upset by 25/3 where they saw other women prevented from doing something they wanted to do. Some of these women are, I believe, on the cusp of thinking the election should/could be a single issue women's rights election.

                      The right has been at the forefront, it seems, of being able to articulate the concerns of women.

                      So however we got to the dominance of 51% of the population by a despotic 3-5 % of the population, whether the patriarchy is stirring and pushing back etc, the longer the left leaves it the more chance there is of a single issue going with the party that 'sees' women……and it ain't Labout at the moment.

                    • RedLogix …
                      7 April 2023 at 11:18 pm

                      @Shanreagh

                      I think you have got the biology/gender stuff a bit confused.

                      Yes, I generally avoid this topic and accept that others will disagree with my not always fluent efforts at expressing my thoughts on this.

                      This old feminist was always saying that 'women can do anything' -sure some things may be difficult strength-wise but we can do anything or should be given the chance to.

                      For certain I have affirmed the right to equal opportunity; but that does not imply everyone will choose equally. Nor should they be forced to.

                      On average men are more interested in things, bonding in teams while facing challenge, are somewhat more aggressive anda a disagreeable. Women on average are more interested in people, bonding socially while nurturing and are more vulnerable to negative emotion and physical threat.

                      But there is considerable overlap as well; there are plenty of men with very feminine personality structures, and vice versa. But in general while each sex is broadly capable of doing what the other does, it does not mean they will necessarily want to. Instead diverging gender roles assert themselves, like weeds in a vege garden, no matter how much we officially disapprove of them.

                      In my view the core mistake- cheered on by the post-modernists- was to argue that this meant all gender roles were an ephemeral social construct that could be engineered into any shape we pleased. Or if erased them altogether a wonderful new utopia would ensue.

                      So for decades the western world has set about dismantling the 'patriarchy' delivering societies in which women are demonstrably freer to choose their destiny than anywhere else on earth, or in our known history. Yet it is not clear that for all this effort, anyone is much the happier.

                      While traditional roles or mother (at home), father(at work) children suit many people they do not suit everybody.

                      And yes most people are willing to allow wiggle room at the margins. If a family chooses this dynamic – and it works for them – then few people might concern themselves with it.

                      What you write here brings to mind a couple we met at a marina some years back. She was definitely more on the masculine side and was very much the 'skipper', in charge of their boat, it's maintenance and operation, while he was very comfortable looking after finances, provisioning and navigation usually the domain of the woman. For them it worked just fine and no-one else cared a rat's patui about it.

                      But where people would push back is the activists proposition that somehow this couple were morally superior for having 'smashed the patriarchy'.

                    • pat …
                      8 April 2023 at 7:13 am

                      All reasonable points.

                      But (as always) the question is …how do we develop a social contract (and legal framework) that recognises both gender AND individual differences that is fair WHILE maintaining a functioning society?

                      A problem for the ages.

                    • Molly …
                      8 April 2023 at 8:23 am

                      @RedLogix

                      Feminism is now claimed by a wide diversity of people holding different and often conflicting views. For me, it holds the same information about someone as calling them left or right-wing. There is no longer a coherent definition of those terms that is universally accepted, so I now try to avoid any of them in conversation and exchanges.

                      The same is true of the word and concept of "patriachy". Academic feminists have a detailed explanation of the term and concept and how it manifests, to the point where the word is lost in the explanation. Others use it as the whole argument and conclusion, ie. Domestic violence against women is because of the patriachy. When you ask what the definition of patriachy is from those who use it in such a way, you will often have different answers, mostly incoherent.

                      Female and male bodies are different, and those differences play a part in our experiences and our lives.

                      "More interesting was the idea that males and females were – other than the bare biological essentials – interchangeable in their gender roles as parents, and if women could do anything men could, then logically fatherhood could be generally regarded as optional, or dispensed with altogether."

                      That's not an unfounded criticism to my mind. Many forget that everything has costs – whether intended or not. They should be acknowledged – and hopefully mitigated – when celebrating what you see as success. Or alternatively, acknowledged and considered too high a price to pay.

                      "But there is considerable overlap as well; there are plenty of men with very feminine personality structures, and vice versa. But in general while each sex is broadly capable of doing what the other does, it does not mean they will necessarily want to. Instead diverging gender roles assert themselves, like weeds in a vege garden, no matter how much we officially disapprove of them.

                      In my view the core mistake- cheered on by the post-modernists- was to argue that this meant all gender roles were an ephemeral social construct that could be engineered into any shape we pleased. Or if erased them altogether a wonderful new utopia would ensue."

                      I agree with what you have written here. I also believe that alongside this, has come an implied criticism of the conservative family, and those who do choose or find themselves in what others will designate as traditional roles. The demand for neutral acceptance of alternative choices, is often not accompanied by the neutral acceptance of others who make what is seen as traditional choices.

                      The supposedly benign prefix "cis" is often used as a pejorative. Cis-het, I have only seen used as an insult.

                      Kellie-Jay Keen is upfront about her concerns and that she will work with anyone who is concerned. Clips of her visit to the Heritage Foundation in America, show that she did not have to inform those she met about her concerns – they were already well informed. That is not often the case with any supposed progressives that deign to meet her. The Heritage Foundation offered to assist in any way that was acceptable to her.

                      The American #LetWomenSpeak tour documentary can be found here: https://youtu.be/QLkUQH81Tts

                      Established feminists in the UK, have reacted very strongly to Kellie Jay Keen’s popularity with women who are not politically identifiable as left-wing.

                      A concerted and unrelenting campaign of critique and denigration has been active over the last years. Public declarations of distancing, has allowed groups to promulgate the unfounded accusations of Nazism, racism and far-right affiliations along with criticisms of not supporting reproductive rights – without providing evidence. Despite these accusations being debunked many times the declarations – in all their smug pompousness – remain.

                      The blogpost I linked to was a reply to a series of essays written by a variety of academic feminists who asked for written responses. (Link from the article) Needless to say, they didn't like the one above.

                      NZ based women – behind the authority of Feminist Named Organisations – but also using the cowardly cloak of anonymity – duplicated both the approach and accusations of such UK feminists.

                      I personally consider both groups have culpability in the violence that took part in Albert Park against the #LetWomenSpeak event. They repeated what they should know to be unfounded accusations, and provided supposedly legitimate references for others to smear and defame Kelly-Jay Keen Minshull and the event.

                      (Note: Just for added context. Kellie-Jay Keen is responsible for the first Women – Adult Human Female billboard going up, in Black and White in 2018. She's been merchandising that definition in that form on t-shirts, posters, signs and stickers ever since, and it has become ubiquitous in the movement. However, it is grammatically clumsy – it should be adult female human. When her USA tour was announced, an announcement was also made that the Standing For Women group intended to make a documentary. Within a few months – those who criticised her most publicly had produced a documentary – called "Adult Human Female" with black and white branding, and described it as coincidental. Like the women's organisations who defamed her before her arrival, they are capitalising on the increased attention without giving credit to the person and organisation who created it.)

                      https://youtu.be/y8nViKYmEhU

                    • Shanreagh …
                      8 April 2023 at 10:07 am

                      @ Redlogix

                      First I should say thank you for your views. I agree with many of them. Where I soon lose agreement is where I sense that the argument is, this suits most of us so therefore it is the way to go.

                      Being governed is a matter of consent by those being governed. The current system and many religions give room for most to exist so we accept them. This does not mean it is a perfect system, just that we don't see another that is better.

                      I call 'the system' the patriarchy and couple it with religion. I don't have the rigorous definition of patriarchy that some have – for me it is broadly the status quo. (the status quo built on eons of similar status quos. Where change is observable but may be barely moving as a way of moving the lives of everyone forward) Of course the status quo is like a breathing animal whose lungs expand and contract. So I wouldn't see the yachting couple as smashing the patriarchy. I think also that the patriarchy is inherently regressive, so that is why I say it is reasserting itself. It feels as if the we are regressing not moving forward. That the beneficiaries of this are male can lead to a thought that if the patriarchy is the status quo, it is possibly regressive ie not suiting the needs of all, in particular not hearing the voices of women then we see the growth of parties for specific parts of our society eg KJM proposed party called Party of Women.

                      So I believe in families, in stable units to bring up children, and to provide help and stability after those children have gone, so access to good health, education and opportunities for children and their families, no matter how these are made up.

                      What I don't believe in is a system so rigid that these are our only concerns. We should be in a society where our lives are measurably different, in a better way, than those who have gone before.

                      As a result of the current debate I have thought long and hard about the utility of the concept of gender. To me a census question, a very mixed up census question, about gender has great interest from a sociological point of view just as the influence of religion does. Sociologists interrogate this data and make observations on thought trends in our society.

                      To answer a census question on gender with Moon gender, gives nothing to health, education, super planners.

                      The key planning-useful questions are

                      woman, man, male child, female child

                      age

                      ethnicity/race

                      time lived in NZ

                      where born

                      All of these can give hard information to planners on the types of facilities we should be providing as we look ahead.

                      We could ask a question

                      who do you identify as?

                      male

                      female

                      another question, specify

                      prefer not to answer

                      This may give sociologists material and it is possible that coupled with age, women, male (ie biological or born sex) question some interesting ideas could come forward in the movement of thought.

                    • RedLogix …
                      8 April 2023 at 12:07 pm

                      @Molly and Shanreagh

                      I have read both of your comments immediately above and appreciate both. If I have not anything substantive to add at this moment it is because in the past this topic has often become a messy conversation – and I want to properly consider everyone's contribution, rather than charging in deeper.

                      (Also my apologies for some of the grammatical horrors in my comments. I have always been a very fast reader, but the downside is that when I am proof-reading inside this very narrow edit box, I am prone to missing or duplicating words at the line returns. I probably should get into the habit of typing in a proper word editor and then pasting over.)

              • Anker …
                7 April 2023 at 4:01 pm

                100% Liberty Belle

            • Shanreagh 9.2.2.1.2.2
              7 April 2023 at 4:56 pm

              I have always wanted the left to be on the ball in writing/interviewing on this issue.

              I have said a couple of times that I have found good explanatory material on the right. I always caveat my links. I explained that Walsh was RW.

              I want someone who can explain the issues, no more no less. Surely if we caveat the other aspects then progressives can decide whether or not to open the links.

              Ok, then remove the interview I put up please. marshall/walsh.

              How do you suggest we cover the points if the left is not generating much thoughtful material and we want to quote from something not from the left.

              Yesterday I linked to GAG site and put a link in so people could see where on the political spectrum they come from.

              I always thought that a note to say he is not from the left or is from the right was sufficient but am happy to caveat in whichever way you want.

              Like Weka I see ‘feminism as women’s liberation’, and for me it is movement of many houses.

              • weka …
                7 April 2023 at 7:24 pm

                It's not that he's RW. There are decent RW people in the world. It's that he is a man with a lot of power that is actively trying to remove women's rights.

                • weka …
                  7 April 2023 at 7:25 pm

                  if we're talking liberation of women, MW not only opposed dismantling of the patriarchy, he is seeking to reinforce it and make it stronger.

              • weka …
                7 April 2023 at 7:45 pm

                I want someone who can explain the issues, no more no less. Surely if we caveat the other aspects then progressives can decide whether or not to open the links.

                There are a few problems with this position. One is that the liberals who might be persuaded will be put off again when they find out who Walsh is and what his politics are. A huge part of the war is because progressives want to be kind to trans people and feel good about their own politics, and then they see the counter to their politics coming not just from the right but the far right and fundamentalists, which makes it much harder to accept the ideas.

                another problem is that nearly everything MW is saying has already been said in the past by feminists and better. The analogy about humans being bipedal and a one legged person still being human? here's Jane Claire Jones saying it in 2021.

                https://twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1439503748796190728

                There have been multiple conversations on twitter about categories, how humans use them to make sense of the world, and how to explain this to people running the counter argument about women without a uterus aren't women.

                One of the big challenges atm is that the right are getting to set the narrative on gender ideology especially in NZ. If you believe that the war has to be won at any cost then one can ignore this I guess. But Plunket didn't have the rights of women in mind when he asked Hipkins the question. Part of it is that he's trying to undermine the left so they don't win the election. Plunket understands the political significance of the question and what played out in the UK, and I would guess he understands that the left in NZ doesn't get it, yet.

                When we use right wing and far right sources to promote our position and do so in such a casual way, we feed the right getting to determine the narrative. And that's not going to serve women in the medium and long term.

                I get how tempting it is, it's very easy when MW lays it out so clearly to share the video. But that puts material out there by someone who is strongly in favour of limiting women's rights. And that shifts the overton window away from our rights. We might win on self ID but lose abortion rights.

                I had a talk with Australian and NZ feminists on a twitter Space last night, and talked this through because I wanted to write a post using MW's videos, precisely because they were so good at demonstrating the issues. I had this idea that I would write about who Walsh is and why he is such a big problem for feminists, but in the end I was convinced by others that it's not worth it. We should be amplifying the voices of people whose politics we want to see in the world.

                • weka …
                  7 April 2023 at 7:48 pm

                  another way to think about this is, how can we change the narrative on the gender/sex war so that it is progressive and feminist?

                  • weka …
                    7 April 2023 at 8:00 pm

                    to that end, here's the whole thread from JCJ,

                    ARGHHHH. Just stop it. Do you think humans who lose a leg stop being human? Or do you think humans without two legs mean humans are not bipedal. What about people with six fingers? I guess either they're not human or humans don't have five fingers right??? THIS IS IDIOTIC. https://t.co/Qao8mjsZ0z

                    Female humans are the class of humans who differentiated down the developmental pathway that leads to be able to perform a certain reproductive function. And the fact that accident, illness or developmental anomaly means some of them can't perform that function doesn't make them 'not female' any more than a mug with a crack in it becomes 'not a mug,' or a car whose engine won't start becomes 'not a car,' or a chair with a broken leg becomes 'not a chair.'

                    Nor does the fact that a mug has a crack in it make it any other number of things that won't hold liquid, like 'a colander' or 'a sieve.' You may as well be arguing that bc some chairs have broken legs any other thing that you can't sit on, like, say, a pine cone, is a chair.

                    And now you will turn around and say 'you are evil because you are saying infertile people are broken.' They are not broken as humans. Their reproductive function is not working. That causes a lot of people pain. That pain will not be helped by playing silly ass word games.

                    The problem now is that MW's video can show the concept without people having to think about it much. They will get it intuitively. He is very good at this.

                    I'm not saying never use his material. I'm saying do it consciously and with awareness of who he is and what he is going, and make it very clear to others what is going on.

                    • Shanreagh …
                      7 April 2023 at 9:23 pm

                      Thank you Weka. I am grateful for the way in which you have enriched my knowledge about these issues. I do appreciate that it is beguiling to read/listen to someone eg Matt Walsh who seems to get it.

                      One of the big challenges atm is that the right are getting to set the narrative on gender ideology especially in NZ. If you believe that the war has to be won at any cost then one can ignore this I guess.

                      I don't want this at all. Every time the Nats have got in with their shrinking govt policies etc it has meant hard times. As a superannuitant I have even less $$$ to come and go on than I had as a salaried person.

                      Many of the women I speak to/know were truly horrified by 25/3 and are coming very close to single issue. They do not like the thought of losing access to women only toilets and changing rooms. Many have children and grandchildren playing sport & see how dangerous it can become……though some sports are moving to protect women on fairness grounds.

                      It would be so easy for the right to commit to revising this legislation or tightening the safe spaces provisions and many may rush over.

                      I was talking on Twitter about the possible effects on women's ability to want to go out if all cinema restrooms etc have to be shared with males. Then there are toilets and changing areas in workplaces. If these are all unisex which seems likely then these are not a women friendly solution.

                      I have worked in two workplaces with these in them and they were awful as the men users did not leave the places as most women would. In fact some women could be found doing general tidy ups in the toilets….others just ducked out to a nearby Dept store that still had a powder room/lounge.

                      We speculated that if these reactions of not going out for recreation cinemas/sport and then inadequate facilities for women in workplaces then women are home shackled and housebound as badly as the Victorian times.

                      When women were striving to get ahead in the workforce the pee leash was a great restrictor.

                      Also I read some correspondence about women in the south of England pushing back against mixed male female changing areas being built as a 'Changing Village' (universal vomiting sounds the world over to this phrase) A few cubicles but mainly open space around the walls.

                      Thank you again Weka.

  10. SPC 10
    7 April 2023 at 12:15 pm

    Snarky column by J. Pagani …

    This sort of nails the tone

    It is revealing what people do when their leadership jobs end.

    Jacinda Ardern signed up with the Speaker Booking Agency for ‘’paid corporate appearances only’’. She is heading overseas to front the Christchurch Call and the Windsors’ royal environment awards. Not child poverty and affordable housing then.

    But the article is about health. She lauds the attack on centralisation by Rob Campbell and National (ignores the impact debt had on Health Board finances and capacity and the post code lottery on access to services under that system).

    And advocates for private sector funding of hospital and health services building – the old model allowed government funding but boards had to provide a return (the cost of which deterred anyone asking for a new building until they had to). She would just bypass the government funding and has a rent cost for private sector profit (another step to privatisation).

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131711380/josie-pagani–yes-minister-health-is-in-crisis

    • weka 11.1
      7 April 2023 at 12:53 pm

      same. we should make our homes and neighbourhoods attractive so people don't feel the need to get out of them so much.

  12. Adrian 12
    7 April 2023 at 1:17 pm

    A few days ago I heard or read, sorry can't remember where, mad-cow you know, an economics commentator was castigating Adrian Orr for punishing us for imported inflation, fuel, machinery etc, etc. I got to thinking about that and realised that he left out an equally valid culprit and that is "exported "inflation. The high price of our high quality meat here is the huge demand for it from the USA most of which ends up minced in hamburgers for MacDonalds, a fact I was unaware of until I was enlightened by a beef farmer mate. The world price for milk is directly responsible for the cost of cheese, baby formula and all kinds of other dairy products including of course milk itself. Many other products such as fish, some veggies and many others probably cause the same problem.

    The answer cannot be ringfencing our in -demand products so that they are more affordable locally as that means producers would need to be compensated for the lost earnings and any failure to do so would be politically untenable. In some ways it is already happening as cost of living adjustments to the less well off mask the discrepancy.

    God, politics is difficult and not a lot of people know that.

    • Stuart Munro 12.1
      7 April 2023 at 1:37 pm

      The problem of dairy prices in NZ owes much to Fonterra charging NZers the same prices as their products cost fob on foreign wharves. What little regulation we have never touched the practice – a prime instance of greedflation.

  14. Shanreagh 14
    7 April 2023 at 3:13 pm

    Oh heavens this is frightening Visubversa.

    So transactivists destroy a mural to babies who died as a result of shaken baby syndrome (abuse)

    Trans activists in France have destroyed a mural for infant victims of 'shaken baby syndrome' – a form of severe brain trauma caused by abuse. The activists reportedly said they had targeted the memorial because it was created by "transphobic feminists."

    This is sounding more and more like a book burning, witch finding mob than a movement dedicated to moving society forward.

    We need some bonfires, sticks, stocks, pools, inflamed unseeing/unknowing followers and we will be back in the Dark Ages…….oh wait 25/3/23

    I ‘hear’, taps side of nose, that people may know the identity of the ‘person’ who punched the 70 year woman in the head fracturing her skull on 25/3.
    Obv don’t feel comfortable linking. it may be just speculation.

  15. Liberty Belle 15
    7 April 2023 at 3:24 pm

    According to the L’Amazone member, a group of “men and trans women” purporting to advocate for transgender causes and against fascism and islamophobia announced their presence, yelling, “Paris Antifas!” CAP and L’Amazone yelled back, “Male violence, MRAs!” The pro-trans, Antifa organization screamed, “Transphobes!” The L’Amazone member said a huge crowd began chanting over and over: “One TERF, one bullet – social justice.”

    https://www.womenarehuman.com/trans-activists-ratchet-up-violent-attacks-against-women-in-france-spain-for-international-womens-day-2021/

    Antifa? Maybe there’s something else going on here? A bit of anarchy, with trans people just pawns?

    • Visubversa 15.1
      7 April 2023 at 3:58 pm

      Anybody can call themselves "Antifa". It is not like the Boy Scouts, you don't get franchise rights.

      In the UK – the black clad masked lads who turn up to shout abuse at women are dubbed "Black Pampers", (Pampers are a brand of nappies) and the ones in Melbourne (average age 17), playing at being Nazis were dubbed the "Black Shorts".

      However, it is all the same male aggression and misogyny.

      • Liberty Belle 15.1.1
        7 April 2023 at 9:57 pm

        Yes, I understand your point. I am just wondering out loud whether (at least in some instances) the trans movement is being hi-jacked by other agenda's.

        • Shanreagh 15.1.1.1
          7 April 2023 at 10:44 pm

          LB I don't think the trans agenda is being hi-jacked.

          I think the trans agenda is now big enough that it is attracting all sorts of hangers on who may be peripherally attached philosophically to parts of it. Some of these will be pornography adjacent and some will have even less desirable aims. To push the boundaries as it were.

          I would not be surprised if we saw moves to lower the age of consent, cater for more bizarre kinks such as Man/Boy love groups. Some are concerned that sexualising children through transitioning may play into the hands of groomers, this is a fear in the USA. I have not seen it here.

          Others will be attracted by more common place views, to tag along for the possibility of violence.

          As Visubversa says

          However, it is all the same male aggression and misogyny.

  16. Shanreagh 16
    7 April 2023 at 11:09 pm

    I had thought

    Here is a good starting point from Maya Forstater (Molly's post above)

    7 April 2023 at 9:10 pm

    I think that the human-rights framework is the way to resolve the question of how society should treat people who identify as transgender (respect their basic human rights and liberties, but don’t respect their fantasy).

    But how will it resolve the changing rooms, sports etc issues?

    Perhaps the human rights for women are those at UN level rather than the 'NZ as a country' human rights level. I don't think the protection of women's safe spaces in NZ legislation is especially immune from legal attack.

  17. Shanreagh 17
    7 April 2023 at 11:24 pm

    I had found this article earlier on and see that it is referenced in the Maya Forstater article as well…..thank you Molly.

    It deals with the pronouns issue ( I think Incognito said he has already taken his out)

    https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

    This is an excellent article and draws on the ideas of safety and how instinctive markers that women have carried through life may be blunted, confused as if we have been subjected to the effects of rohypnol

    One of the biggest obstacles to halting the stampede over women’s rights is pronoun and preferred name ‘courtesy’. People severely underestimate the psychological impact to themselves, and to others, of compliance.

    the use of pronouns such as 'she' to describe 'he' (male bodied) can dull our senses

    They dull your defences. They change your inhibitions. They’re meant to. You’ve had a lifetime’s experience learning to be alert to ‘him’ and relax to ‘her’. For good reason. This instinctive response keeps you safe. It’s not even a conscious thing. It’s like your hairs standing on end. Your subconscious brain is helping you not get eaten by the sabre tooth tiger that your eyes haven’t noticed yet.

    Good read including a couple of exercises, and no these do not give you credits for any exam. smiley

  18. roblogic 18
    8 April 2023 at 12:05 am

    This is why I am stepping back from the gender wars. Will speak about principles now and then but it's tiresome getting tangled in the weeds

    https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1643253627937767429?s=20

    Mainstream discourse is a complete wasteland. @SophRiver (🔒) describes the problem well:

    Envy. Entitlement. Destructiveness. This is part of the toxic mix that is bottled inside of the identity activists operating with a licence from elites in NZ.
    Most in our MSM then spin the story of 'victims'- cherry picking data, ignoring violence, speaking to one side only.

    Also, the univariate fallacy is deployed again and again and again by MSM and spun with a huge conceptual leap of faith into religious nonsense.
    eg There is a difference in health outcomes between two groups = health system is racist.

    All relevant variables need to be ignored: poverty, lifestyle, quality of housing, jobs, education, diet etc.
    These are the variables which would make a difference if addressed. Instead we rinse and repeat on one button.

    We seem to have turned from the path of truth and shared humanity where complex issues require complex solutions to one where simplistic rhetoric is deployed on repeat.

    • RedLogix 18.1
      8 April 2023 at 12:46 am

      That quote from SophRiver certainly resonates with me.

      Here is my diagnostic tool rob. I look at the outcomes – if the outcome is more division and exploiting social fault lines to accumulate moral or political power, then I know to avoid associating with them.

      If the outcome drives toward unity and a visible, concrete progress toward real-world, universal solutions, then I will cheer them on, and watch to see what lessons can be learned.

      • Incognito 18.1.1
        8 April 2023 at 2:39 pm

        Looking at outcomes or consequences is a reasonable rule of thumb that I tend to use as well. However, it has limitations, especially when dealing with wicked problems and social messes. This can be illustrated with metaphors such ‘death by thousand cuts’ or ‘the last drop in the bucket overflowing’, et cetera. Complex multi-dimensional non-linear interactions with time lags cannot be measured or managed by a snapshot in time.

    • weka 18.2
      8 April 2023 at 9:43 am

      do you have permission to share those tweets from behind a locked account? If not, can you please check with her that it's ok.

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