Open mike 07/05/2023

96 comments on “Open mike 07/05/2023 ”

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1. weston 1

   7 May 2023 at 6:54 am

   Like maggots in a rotten block of cheese the CIA works to interfere in elections both foreign and domestic .

   
   
   

   Arron mate explains what Mike Morell has been up to in 2016 and 2020 for the dems

   Its not a 'swamp ' its a sewer !!!
2. Sanctuary 2

   7 May 2023 at 8:26 am

   Watched a bit of the coronation last night. Here is the thing – English choral music from the late rennaissance is widely acknowedged as the top of the game, and "Zadok the Priest" is a total banger. You would go a long way to hear better arrangements and of course to see and hear it done in context for probably the last time in history was lovely. Of course, you could fund a lot of cultural stuff like early English and orchestral music for a long time with 250 million pounds…

   I remember reading – it may have been in John Julius Norwich's three volume history -about the Byzantine empires final days. Reduced to the city of Constantinople and it's immediate surrounds plus a few scraps of land here and there nonetheless imperial ceremony continued as if nothing had changed. The Hagia Sophia gleamed, the diadems and sceptres shone, the voices raised in tedious and interminable religious cant rang as beautifully as ever. Except on closer inspection, the jewels were glass and precioud metals just paint and tinsel. In the corners the paint was peeling and streets beyond the imperial quarters were unkempt and run down. I got strong Byzantium vibes from Westminster abbey.

   The whole exercise to me was a ghastly, self-important exercise in hypernormality for the British ruling elite. You know the whole thing was cos-playing fantasy. They know the whole thing was a cos playing fantasy. You could see on everyone faces they knew it was a cos playing fantasy. Charles clearly really, really wanted it. He's waited his enite life for the moment I guess. But no one knows what to do instead, so they pretend it was all perfectly normal.

   The whole thing – the imperial regalia, the swearing to uphold the Protestant settlement, the sumptuous yet ridiculous clothing – was an expedition into never-never land, larping for a long dead empire. It was ymbolic of the UKs wider struggle with reality in an era of seemingly irreversible national decline.
   • Ad 2.1

     7 May 2023 at 10:25 am

     Yes I loved the 3-volume John Norich as well.

     We do need mass events to connect to our collective assent better than tawdry party woopdiewoop, but I'm not sure English coronation tat is any worse than the serried ranks of calisthenic inflatable pandas from any Beijing Olympics.

     Cathedral of Light anyone?

     
   • AB 2.2

     7 May 2023 at 10:41 am

     English choral music from the late renaissance …

     Yes. For me Byrd especially has a sort of supernatural quality that fades into something more formulaic by the time you get to Handel. The Roman Catholic Byrd was played straight after Charles swore to uphold the Protestant faith – obviously intended as a nod to modern notions of religious tolerance.

     But it was all very strange – as though the legitimacy of the monarchy is so weak in rational terms, that it now consists only of spectacle and its extraordinary. magical difference from everyday life.
   • Incognito 2.3

     7 May 2023 at 10:50 am

     Where else do the great Hollywood directors get their inspiration from for their megalomaniac blockbuster projects? Oh wait, AI!
   • Sabine 2.4

     7 May 2023 at 10:58 am

     Would you say the same about the coronation of the King of Bhutan, Thailand, Japan, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, Spain, the swearing in of a new Pope, the marching down the the Mall of a new President in the US etc?

     Zadoc the Priest is from George Frideric Handel who wrote the music for the Coronation of George II in 1727 and Handel was renown for his 'celestial' composition, and German. A quintessential understanding and imagining of the heavens in music. You know Christian understanding of the glory of the Father, the son and the holy ghost. (yes, mothers and daughters need not apply, but that is a world wide thing when it comes to religions be the old or new wave).

     This is a tradition that is hundreds of years old, happens every now and then, and as Mr. Cave said so well,

     "I am not a monarchist, nor am I a royalist, nor am I an ardent republican for that matter; what I am also not is so spectacularly incurious about the world and the way it works, so ideologically captured, so damn grouchy, as to refuse an invitation to what will more than likely be the most important historical event in the UK of our age."
     https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/23502890.nick-cave-defends-attendance-coronation/#:~:text=He%20said%3A%20%22I%20am%20not,likely%20be%20the%20most%20important

     This is British culture, you know the culture of the indigenous people of Britain. Would you be so happy to poopoo the tradition of other countries indigenous people?

     And fwiw, i rather have this exhibit of tradition that comes every other few decades – and even Charles has a good chance to get very old, then the the shit Ad posted below, coming from a country that had its culture stripped via Dunce hat, beatings, death and ridicule by its young during Mao Tse Dong reign and his cultural revolution, and who replaced it with plastic shit.

     And don't come with the cost of this, cause our Prime Minster Person was there and really they had no reason what so ever to be there other then a nice tax payer funded junket, and i don't hear anyone complaining about that waste of money. But i guess so as long as New Zealand is a jewel in the crown that is the commonwealth, no one would refuse such and awesome experience and tax payer funded trip.

     The indigenous people of Europe have their own tradition, rites and pomp, as is their right. And if we are to accept the traditions of indigenous people, and their right to express their traditions, you might as well understand that that includes people whom you might not approve.
     • Ad 2.4.1

       7 May 2023 at 11:24 am

       First bit was a lovely response.

       Our PM has to be there because this is his head of state.

       All we have to do is apply a 5,000-strong Kapa Haka team to our own opening of Parliament and we would be on the way.

       Matariki+ANZAC+Commonwealth Games opening as a hybrid to get the juices going.
       • Sabine 2.4.1.1

         7 May 2023 at 11:58 am

         My point is literally pointing out that we are doing our best here in NZ/Aotearoa to pretend that everything that comes/came from the crown is colonial bullshit and needs to be burned and buried, yet here the PM Person is eating sausage rolls standing in line ready to bow their head and shake hands with the great coloniser.

         If one wants to bury tradition cause 'colonialism' cause 'white', then one should have the conviction of thought and simply state that they can not attend, find an excuse and send that ex speaker of the house who lives in Ireland now and send them as a representative of NZ or Aotearoa. Which btw, would have been a cheap solution too, the ex speaker of the house could have travelled on Easy Jet to the coronation for 50 quid and stay in NZ house in London.

         I am getting very tired of the poopooing of European culture, the pretense that every person born of white color is responsible for the sins of their forefathers, worse are active colonisers, thiefs of land, killers of people – all of those that were born since 1930 of the last century up until today, yet, at the same time these same people can't go over there fast enough to rub shoulders with people whom otherwise they would call colonisers, thiefs, and killers of people.

         Either you are ok with this type of tradition for all and that then includes white people and their traditions, either we start accepting the idea that all people are indeginous somewhere, or we should opt out of this pomp and ceremony and stay at home and attend to important business there.

         Case in point, Biden send the wife and no one is unhappy about that. And Biden is the head of the USofA a much larger and more important country in terms of geo – political interests and doings.

         And last, i don’t think many here would complain about a crowning ceremony if it were by non white, non european people, cause ‘interesting culture and tradition’, yet they will not give the same grace to their own culture and ‘race’.
         • Sabine 2.4.1.1.1

           7 May 2023 at 12:11 pm

           and yes, if we start applying that 5000 strong Kapa Haka group, in a thousand years it might be just as spectacular.
           And would you invite Tamaki, cause he has form when it comes to Kapa Haka in front of parliament?
         • Sanctuary 2.4.1.1.2

           7 May 2023 at 8:11 pm

           This is British culture, you know the culture of the indigenous people of Britain. Would you be so happy to poopoo the tradition of other countries indigenous people?

           Charles is about as British as I am, he's a sausage sucking German from way back. His old man was from Glucksburg by way of the parlour floor of some place in Greece.
       • Sabine 2.4.1.2

         7 May 2023 at 12:07 pm

         Matariki + Anzac + Commonwealth Games opening is meaningless and renders all three into a mush of nothingness.

         They are three distinct things.

         Matariki – raise of the Pleiades, the celebration of the Maori new year.

         Anzac – Australian New Zealand forces that got left behind in the ditches of Europe and Turkey and North Africa and that are still mourned today by those left to live without them and their potential offspring, and those that came home to deal with their survival on their own.

         Commonwealth Games – a sporting event – may the 'best' win. (males in female sport are totes the best)

         I really hope that we have enough good sense in this country to never marry these three things up in a gray mush of plastic bullshit and rather celebrate them as the three distinct occasions for festivities that they are.
     • AB 2.4.2

       7 May 2023 at 3:07 pm

       Would you say the same about the coronation of the King of Bhutan, Thailand…

       I'm sure that Sanctuary would do exactly the same – provided he knew about those cultures to relate those coronation events to the political and economic structures of those societies and any systems of hierarchy or oppression they enabled. He was absolutely not being critical of the actual material details of the ceremony – he (rightly) praised English Renaissance to baroque composers (even the German import Georg Friedrich Händel).

       This is British culture, you know the culture of the indigenous people of Britain. Would you be so happy to poopoo the tradition of other countries indigenous people?

       As above, he was not poopooing the actual aretfacts of the culture – only what it means for the social, economic and political realm. And it is not only Mr Sanctuary who does this, British people do it themselves in growing numbers.

       It seems to me that your comments amount to a strawman hit job and contain a fallacy. The fallacy being – that if anyone insists that all cultures are worthy of equal respect, that means they are not permitted to criticise any culture.
       • Sabine 2.4.2.1

         7 May 2023 at 5:41 pm

         Well for many people this crowning actually means a good social act of coming together in country and re-affirm ones idendity in this case being a 'brit', it certainly will do good for the economy of London and probably spill over elsewhere considering that people will spend, eat out, party , people will travel there to be part of this event and so on, and it is a good excellent demonstration in soft political power, hence why our PM travelled there – well at least that is why i hope they travelled there.

         Anyways, Britain now has a new King, may he be a good one, and hopefully it made Brits feel good about being part of a culture that is over a thousand years old, and that is still part of life today.
         • Sanctuary 2.4.2.1.1

           7 May 2023 at 8:12 pm

           re-affirm ones idendity in this case being a ‘brit’,..”

           A “brit” being suitably uncapitalised in this case.
   • Bearded Git 2.5

     7 May 2023 at 11:43 am

     Agree Sanc and lovely post….I would add to this the brutal police suppression of anti-royal demonstrators (52 arrested) that took place yesterday….also a symbol of Britain's national decline that has been exacerbated by the small-minded right-wing clique (Brexit proponents, still fantasising about an empire) that seem to have taken control of the country.

     I'm not sure Starmer is going to be much better.
     • RosieLee 2.5.1

       7 May 2023 at 12:14 pm

       It's probably just as well they were arrested – for their own safety. Imagine what the crowd would have done to them.
3. pat 3

   7 May 2023 at 8:52 am

   Somebody had better help Kainga Ora find the 6000 rentals they appear to have misplaced

   "At the end of June the number of public houses was 76,271. Of those 64,870 were Kāinga Ora properties while 11,401 were CHP properties, according to HUD’s figures."

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/131960672/property-investors-losing-one-of-last-ways-to-keep-interest-deductibility

   State Rentals 65,654

   Community Group Housing¹ 1,508

   CHP Lease Portfolio 4 964

   Transitional Housing 2,271

   Total 70,397

   https://kaingaora.govt.nz/assets/Publications/Managed-stock/Managed-Stock-National-Summary-December-2022.pdf
   • Visubversa 3.1

     7 May 2023 at 10:15 am

     If you drive around Owairaka you might see the answer to some of that question. Whole swathes of former State housing has been removed for the development of new houses suitable for 21stC living, There are vacant sites and construction sites everywhere. As Kainga Ora is building on its own land there, the previous houses (most of which were constructed of 6 kinds of tacky boarding and only held together with 50 years of bad paint jobs) have been pushed over.
     • pat 3.1.1

       7 May 2023 at 11:00 am

       I suspect that that is indeed part of the explanation….however it dosnt explain why HUD ( and the Gov) are claiming a current KO stock level that is at odds with KOs own data.

       The spin doctors appear to have been given a free hand
     • Sabine 3.1.2

       7 May 2023 at 11:23 am

       Then they should be listed as 'currently' being rebuild, refurbished, not in the state of being tenanted, rather then just being omitted.
   • mikesh 3.2

     7 May 2023 at 10:31 am

     I don't see why interest should be deductible just because a property is administered by Kianga Ora. The capital ownership remains with the landlord/investor. Non deductibility is logical because ownership of the capital lies outside the business itself.
     • Sabine 3.2.1

       7 May 2023 at 11:09 am

       It is because no private landlord wants to rent to 'Kainga Ora' and its unruly tenants that can not be moved on – cause no evictions ever – in the case of a anti-social, community terrorizing tenant.

       So here is a financial incentive – write of your interest payments if you rent to Kainga Ora, however i can't see that as enough of a treat for a landlord who really don't want his property trashed, meth cooked, wife/children beaten and/or the property being turned into a gang patch.

       It really has got nothing to do with ownership, business setup/interests or anything. KO/the Government can't and wont build the houses that the country needs, the country simply does not have the money to do so – or so at least we are to believe, nor the skills – and that is something i can believe, so the private landlord must be roped in, here have a sweetener. Having read many accounts of unruly social welfare tenants, hearing the sirens every night that go to certain KO addresses daily, why would any investor bother. They may as well keep the property empty and rent it privately to someone who is happy being responsible for their own life, rather then depend on the welfare agencies to finance theirs.

       And yes, there are decent KO tenants who are the majority, but sadly as always its the minority of fuckwits that ruin it for all. And KO refusing to deal with the minority of fuckwits that ruin it for all, really does ruin it for all.
   • Incognito 3.3

     7 May 2023 at 12:35 pm

     If you change the end date to December 2022 you’ll get the exact same number of Kāinga Ora Public Homes (65,654) reported by HUD as reported in the KO PDF that you linked to with the same end date.

     https://www.hud.govt.nz/stats-and-insights/the-government-housing-dashboard/public-homes/#tabset

     What exactly is the issue here?
     • pat 3.3.1

       7 May 2023 at 6:05 pm

       I think you may wish to revisit that statement…

       Total public houses as at Dec 2022 according to HUD is 77,707

       KO state they have a managed stock of 70,397

       Both sets of figures include CHP stock.
       • Incognito 3.3.1.1

         7 May 2023 at 7:51 pm

         On the HUD page I linked to (and changed the end date to December 2022 for comparison with your KO link) it states Public Home – Total 77,707; Kāinga Ora Public Homes 65,654; Community Housing Provider Public Homes 12,053 and 65,654 + 12,053 = 77,707.

         Obviously, the only figure that is identical to that in the KO PDF that you linked to is State Rentals 65,654. If you read the note and footnotes you’ll understand why figures in the other categories are different from those reported by HUD. Hence, the totals are different.

         Further guidance can be found here: https://www.hud.govt.nz/stats-and-insights/the-government-housing-dashboard/definitions/#tabset.
         • pat 3.3.1.1.1

           7 May 2023 at 8:18 pm

           Im beginning to think this may be your baby…

           “Kāinga Ora Public Homes includes public homes managed by Kāinga Ora that are occupied by tenants and those that are vacant. Homes may be vacant for a variety of reasons:

           • Short Term Vacant are properties that are (or are soon to be) available for new tenants.
           • Long Term Vacant are properties that are undergoing significant work such as retrofitting or that are unavailable while a decision is made regarding their future use.
           • SLED are pending removal due to Sales, Lease Expiry and Demolitions.

           Community Housing Provider Public Homes includes public homes managed by Community Housing Providers. It does not include vacant homes.”
           https://www.hud.govt.nz/stats-and-insights/the-government-housing-dashboard/definitions/#tabset

           As said tjhe spin doctors appear to have been given free licence…counting (and promoting) 7,000 unavailable homes is 'disingenuous'…to put it politely.

           Personally I prefer the vernacular….its bullshit
           • Incognito 3.3.1.1.1.1

             7 May 2023 at 8:43 pm

             I cannot help you with reading comprehension – you seem to be conflating properties managed through KO and properties existing/available as reported by HUD.

             I’m puzzled why you think this may be my baby and it sounds like a failed ad hom, which is disappointing because I thought we were past this.
             • pat …

               7 May 2023 at 8:51 pm

               When you refuse to acknowledge that HUD (and the Gov) are claiming a level of public housing that dosnt exist (isnt available for whatever reason) as demonstrated by KOs own managed stock figures which clearly show those claims to be false then one has to consider why?

               Perhaps you are more credulous than you present.
               • Incognito …

                 8 May 2023 at 9:15 pm

                 I read the notes and concluded that most figures reported by KO and HUD are different, as explained, i.e., apples and oranges. In addition, this is more plausible than to invoke wild conspiracy theories involving Government-aligned (and paid?) evil spin doctors spreading BS false claims and lying to us. It is ok to disagree, reach a different opinion, and then agree to disagree instead of going on a personal attack alleging conflict of interest of those who dare to see things differently.
                 • pat …

                   8 May 2023 at 9:47 pm

                   Apples (?)

                   "As at December 2022 there was a total of 77,707 properties managed by Kāinga Ora and Community Housing Providers for use as public housing."

                   https://www.hud.govt.nz/stats-and-insights/the-government-housing-dashboard/public-homes/#tabset

                   Oranges(?)

                   "Managed Kainga Ora Properties as at 31st December 2022…Total 70,397"

                   https://kaingaora.govt.nz/assets/Publications/Managed-stock/Managed-Stock-National-Summary-December-2022.pdf

                   Bananas!
                   • Incognito …

                     8 May 2023 at 9:50 pm

                     You nailed it!
                   • pat …

                     8 May 2023 at 10:20 pm

                     I'd say they nailed themselves….to their shame (if they possessed any)
                   • Incognito []

                     9 May 2023 at 7:49 pm

                     31 December 2022 KO figure: 65,654 and HUD figure: 65,654
                     30 September 2022 KO figure: 65,121 and HUD figure: 65,121
                     30 June 2022 KO figure: 64,870 and HUD figure: 64,870
                     31 March 2022 KO figure: 64,312 and HUD figure: 64,312

                     And so on, and so forth.

                     KO goes back to December 2015 and HUD to June 2017, but I hope you’ll get the gist based on just one year (2022).

                     In other words, KO and HUD are using the same stats for the same things and different stats for different but related things.
                   • pat …

                     9 May 2023 at 9:02 pm

                     You are being as dishonest as the Government,

                     HUD (and the Gov) are claiming public housing increases that DO NOT EXIST.

                     HUD 'public housing' figures include Kiwibuild houses (sold or available to owner occupiers but not renters) and public housing consented (but not yet completed, irrespective of anticipated completion date).

                     And yet still they state…"As at December 2022 there was a total of 77,707 properties managed by Kāinga Ora and Community Housing Providers for use as public housing."…when there are in fact fully SEVEN THOUSAND LESS properties managed by KO and available to their clients…..and you defend such dishonesty.
                   • Incognito []

                     9 May 2023 at 9:08 pm

                     Shhhh, not so loud, the baby has finely dozed off.
                   • pat …

                     9 May 2023 at 9:15 pm

                     The baby deserves to know why he/she is sleeping in a car
                   • Incognito []

                     9 May 2023 at 9:24 pm

                     mi casa es tu auto
4. Ad 4

   7 May 2023 at 10:31 am

   If 7 people died on the Rotorua Marathon, Worksafe would shut it down permanently.

   In Kentucky 7 thoroughbred horses die and it's the game.

   https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kentucky-derby-runs-into-more-obstacles-ahead-of-big-race_n_64569ca7e4b0461603129946

   Any time this government wants to do what it said it would do and shut Greyhound racing down when it had to kill 27 dogs last season, would be great. Chloe is dead right on this.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/racing/300484854/a-sport-on-its-last-legs–can-greyhound-racing-in-new-zealand-survive
   • Sabine 4.1

     7 May 2023 at 11:16 am

     I think this would fall under Grant Robertson 's protfolio?
     • Ad 4.1.1

       7 May 2023 at 11:25 am

       Indeed it is; kicked to touch like most policies.
       • Sabine 4.1.1.1

         7 May 2023 at 11:47 am

         sad, because it could have been shut down so many times, i mean full majority and all that, plus never ending support from the Greens…..ladida.

         But it gets Chloe in the news, i guess that is a plus?

         Has Chloe had any comments on males competing in female sports? I think Grant said something like, 'should not be petty and mean' and exlude them? NO? Oh well……

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/petty-and-small-minded-sport-minister-grant-robertson-responds-to-critics-of-sport-nz-transgender-guidelines/EHLQL6YAAFHDHI2WKMIREEOMMY/
     • Matiri 4.1.2

       7 May 2023 at 1:46 pm

       Keiran McAnulty is the Minister of Racing
       • Sabine 4.1.2.1

         7 May 2023 at 5:46 pm

         ah i see, appointed last year.

         In a June 2022 reshuffle, McAnulty was appointed as Minister for Racing, Minister for Emergency Management and associate Minister of Local Government and of Transport by Ardern.[15] McAnulty's role as Minister for Racing gives him responsibility for the running of the Totalisator Agency Board, which he worked for before entering politics.

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kieran_McAnulty
   • RedLogix 4.2

     7 May 2023 at 11:42 am

     Then again if you shut these sports down, none of these animals would ever likely lived anyway.
     • Belladonna 4.2.1

       7 May 2023 at 11:53 am

       Yes. The moment greyhound racing is made illegal in NZ, all of the reputable owners and breeders will euthanase all of their dogs.

       Of course, there will still be illicit racing (just as there is illicit dog fighting) – but the SPCA and industry bodies will have zero oversight and control.

       The dogs which survive will be much worse off.

       I'm using greyhound racing as an example, since it seems to have fewer rich people investing than horse racing, and therefore less political influence (anyone remember one W. Peters, the minister for racing, and his tax credit for 'pretty horses'). So is likely to be first off the cancellation chopping block.
       • Ad 4.2.1.1

         7 May 2023 at 4:22 pm

         No, culling all the non-racing dogs is not inevitable. There are of course alternatives and they are well practised.

         That is a really terrible reason not to stop the dog racing industry.
         • Belladonna 4.2.1.1.1

           7 May 2023 at 6:12 pm

           I can't see any way that the current numbers of dogs could be maintained. Yes, there might be a few kept as pets. The vast majority would be immediately culled (or disappear into the black market). Racing is a business.

           Can you give an example where this has not happened, once racing became illegal?
       • joe90 4.2.1.2

         7 May 2023 at 6:22 pm

         all of the reputable owners and breeders will euthanase all of their dogs.

         There's nothing reputable about greyhound racing. It's a gambling industry masquerading as sport where a third of whelped animals never make it to the track and nearly half of euthanised dogs are under three years old.

         https://www.tabnz.org/sites/default/files/documents/Greyhound%20Racing%20Welfare%20Report%202017.pdf
         • Belladonna 4.2.1.2.1

           7 May 2023 at 6:27 pm

           Well, the majority of them maintain the SPCA mandated standards (or they get closed down). It's simple business practice.

           If it goes underground (as dog fighting has). What standards will exist?

           Yes it's gambling. Does that make it better or worse than the pokies or lotto which suck money out of South Auckland every week?
           • joe90 4.2.1.2.1.1

             7 May 2023 at 6:41 pm

             (as dog fighting has)

             Cite?
             • Belladonna …

               7 May 2023 at 7:01 pm

               https://pmgt.org.nz/animal-abuse/

               https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/05/24/dog-fighting-rings-terrify-northland-canine-lovers/
               • joe90 …

                 7 May 2023 at 7:47 pm

                 A watch out notice about signs of a potential abuser, and with details of the long running gangs are watching claptrap, and a news report of a dog snatching?

                 But hey, absolute chaos if legit trainers are forced out of a regulated industry.
                 /

                 https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/441048/greyhound-trainer-disqualified-fined-after-dog-tests-positive-for-meth

                 https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/racing/300709615/greyhound-trainer-disqualified-after-dog-tests-positive-for-methamphetamine

                 https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/08/two-trainers-banned-from-greyhound-racing-after-leaving-dogs-in-abhorrent-conditions.html
                 • joe90 …

                   7 May 2023 at 7:50 pm

                   A regulated industry.

                   /

                   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/129906186/two-year-ban-for-tokoroa-greyhound-owner-who-used-human-drugs-to-treat-dog

                   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/488475/greyhound-racing-case-lengthy-ban-imposed-on-mother-and-daughter
                 • Belladonna …

                   8 May 2023 at 8:13 am

                   I think you're rather over-egging the pudding here. I've suggested nothing like absolute chaos.

                   My statement was that if dog racing was banned, the *majority* of dogs would be put down immediately, but that there would be some which would go into illegal racing (as there is already illegal dog fighting)

                   You asked for evidence of the latter, and I gave you some (sorry if you don't like it – but people don't exactly line up to tell journalists about their illegal activity). Given that the SPCA and the police both think it's an issue, you might just accept that it goes on.

                   If you believe that current trainers/breeders exhibit lack of care for their dogs – then the outcome that I've suggested is even more likely – most dogs put down, some in illegal racing (and treated even worse than they are now).

                   If you think this is an acceptable short-term cost – then just state your position. But don't try to sell a proposal that all the dogs currently racing will be adopted by loving families (or some other rose-coloured glasses scenario).
     • Ad 4.2.2

       7 May 2023 at 4:21 pm

       That's not a good reason.

       New Zealand culls thousands of calves and cows every day, the consequences of mechanised death industries we call meat. We calculate an entire economy on it. Doesn't make it something that's good. And of course it is reversible.

       We just have to choose it.
       • Belladonna 4.2.2.1

         7 May 2023 at 6:18 pm

         Hmm, the problem is that while we can make individual choices, others in the country are equally free to do so.

         You can choose to become vegetarian (or even vegan), but if your neighbour down the road (or overseas) still wants to eat meat and cheese, then the slaughter-houses remain.

         You either have to accept that one person's veto over-rides another's choices; or be prepared to accept that other people's choices impact on your peace of mind.

         You can, of course, try to influence the rest of the country to agree with your opinion. And … that's exactly what the anti-racing brigade are doing.

         Part of that PR exercise, is an unwillingness to admit the immediate consequences of their proposed ban on racing.
         • Belladonna 4.2.2.1.1

           7 May 2023 at 6:30 pm

           It would be more honest to admit that the vast majority of dogs (and potentially horses) would be put down. And find a way to make that an acceptable cost of making the change.
5. ianmac 5

   7 May 2023 at 11:13 am

   "Liam Dann: With numbers this good, why does the economy feel so bad?" (Watch out Liam! The Herald will smack your hand for this column!)

   A good question but the Opposition are feeding the feeling of doom.

   Company liquidations are on the rise. Hardly surprising given the terrible state of the economy, right?

   Well hang on, it turns out they are still well short of numbers that were normal pre-pandemic.

   Last year there were 1556 total liquidations recorded compared with 1380 in 2021.

   But between 2003 and 2016, liquidations didn’t dip below the 2000 mark. They hit a high of 3433 in 2009 amidst the Global Financial Crisis.

   The past couple of months have also seen increasing numbers of people falling behind on debt repayments……..

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/liam-dann-with-numbers-this-good-why-does-the-economy-feel-so-bad/G3N6N6R4U5BZHFNUFCQF3D3IH4/
   • Ad 5.1

     7 May 2023 at 11:30 am

     Check:

     – Unemployment. Maori unemployment. The underemployed. Youth unemployed.

     – Wage rises.

     – Building consents

     – Productivity

     – International benchmarks of net debt

     All of them really good. What we lack to sell the message is either a decent Minister of Economic Development (having fired Nash it's now Barbara Edmonds (who?)), or a Minister of Finance who actually wants the job (Grant Robertson with no current successor anywhere).

     Labour don't even look like they have a message beyond "sausage rolls and bread and butter", let alone anyone trying to sell it.
   • Sabine 5.2

     7 May 2023 at 11:44 am

     If the stenographer from the Herald were to study the stats in detail they would have discovered a line called " Underemployment/Underutilisation " and that may help in their understanding of the employment market.

     End March 2023:

     9.0% average under employment/underutilisation

     Male 7.3%

     "Female" 10.9%

     (female in brackets as chances are it includes unemployed males self identifying as 'women' and thus increase the stats for females and decrease them for males) I expect this to change a bit in the future once enough Transmen come of age and will start skewering the stats with their inclusion. As in the next generation of trans, the children that are now coming of age and start going to uni and work, and that cohort is greater female to male then male to female.

     https://www.stats.govt.nz/indicators/underutilisation-rate/

     If the Herald stenographer were to dig deeper in the government provided details they would have learned that there are 2000 more unemployed people. Can't see them being able to keep up with bill payments whilst on the dole.

     Rf that person were to scroll a bit lower then they would see again the divide by sex (i am assuming here that they use sex based criteria, it might be by gender cause who knows, as it is all the same to government)

     • For men, the unemployment rate was 3.2 percent, compared with 3.3 percent last quarter. so down.
     • For women, the unemployment rate was 3.7 percent, compared with 3.5 percent last quarter. up.

     The seasonally adjusted number of unemployed people reached 102,000 (up 2,000).

     • 1,000 fewer men were unemployed. again, down.
     • 3,000 more women were unemployed. again up.

     most households in NZ need that second income to pay for bills.

     to end this is also from the stats

     In the March 2023 quarter, 22,000 more people were employed, taking the total number of employed people up to 2,886,000.

     • 8,000 more men were employed.
     • 15,000 more women were employed.

     so despite more 'women' then men being employed 'female' underutilistion is up, and more 'women' were unemployed.

     We can thus fairly safely stipulated that the employment for 'women' is part time, casual, seasonal, and thus increasing underutiliastion. Wants to work more hours then they have.

     And again, we have no idea who many males self identifying as 'women' are in the stats for 'females' or 'women'. In essence, its made up shit, and actually unemployment – if we still count employed anyone who has a job for an hour a week, and thus are no more believable then they were under John Key.

     Personally i think the underutilisation rate is a better measure to look at as to why the economy is in free fall, and inflation will continue to go up and bills will not get paid. And this would then also explain the increase in emergency benefits, and other 'side benefits' that are given to people who are in gainful employment but can't make ends meet.

     But don't tell the stenographer from the Herald that, it might confuse them even further.
     • ianmac 5.2.1

       7 May 2023 at 3:23 pm

       The method of measuring unemployment has been the same for a decade or so. To go for under-employment as proof of something Sabine, surely you would have to compare with underemployment in the previous 10 years or so.
       • Sabine 5.2.1.1

         7 May 2023 at 5:20 pm

         Tthat is true, hence why i put in there that we have been doing unemployement stats like this since the changes were introduced and implemented under the reign of John Key. I.e. one hour per week paid/volunteer with benefits counts as 'employed', that 0 hour contracts still count somewhere in the stats as 'employed', hence why benefits seem to go up while unemployment goes down.

         So yes, we could and maybe we should compare. And we could compare say the financial crisis, with todays financial crisis – Banks are failing in the US, quite a few actually, and eventually that too will travel around the planet as it always does.

         But to the question raised by the person writing for the Herald 'as to why ' no one seems to be doing 'well' in a 'good' economy, i point to the other stats that point to a malaise generally, that while unemployment is 'low', is that 'under employment is not, and that some groups of people are more affected by that then others, and that that might add to that malaise of not being able to pay mortgages and bills.

         It would equally interesting to know how many households are behind their mortgages – since when- how long – how much, and how many households are behind bills such as utilities, rates, – since when – how long – how much.

         All really good interesting questions that an enterprising 'journalist' working for a national fishwrap could ask and investigate.
   • Belladonna 5.3

     7 May 2023 at 11:55 am

     Dann's article is archived here, for those without Herald subscriptions

     https://archive.ph/UApsD
6. Incognito 6

   7 May 2023 at 11:32 am

   The accompanying photo is an unfortunate stereotype, but I haven’t had my coffee yet, so I’m not 100% awake yet.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018888690/when-does-loving-care-become-overindulgence
   • bwaghorn 6.1

     7 May 2023 at 12:08 pm

     I haven't been able to do wag jnrs maths homework since about year 7 so nailing that bit of parenting atleast!!
     • Incognito 6.1.1

       7 May 2023 at 12:11 pm

       You're not meant to do your children's homework
     • Belladonna 6.1.2

       7 May 2023 at 3:23 pm

       Ha! I was told, very firmly, by my teen that I know nothing about maths, when I tried to help him with his trig homework (not do it for him, but help him work out where he'd got stuck). Am pretty sure that the interior angles of a triangle still add up to 180 degrees, just as they did when I was at school (and indeed since Thales, Pythagoras and Euclid codified the rules)
   • ianmac 6.2

     7 May 2023 at 3:28 pm

     By letting kids solve their own problems means as adults they have learnt to survive with confidence. To jump in with answers to questions, or the tell them solutions to their problems is most unhelpful.
     • Incognito 6.2.1

       7 May 2023 at 3:43 pm

       I agree. IMO, the emphasis should be on learning strategies to problem-solve rather than on finding the (only!) right/correct answer. The former teaches creativity and resilience, and sometimes teamwork, and the latter teaches binary outcomes such as correct-false (and fail-pass). Problem-solving is fun and the (correct) answer is just a bonus and icing on the cake, from a pedagogical perspective, IMHO.
7. Incognito 7

   7 May 2023 at 12:10 pm

   Marc Daalder in Newsroom has penned his analysis of the Green Party and its ongoing identity crisis.

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/kerekere-gone-from-greens-but-identity-crisis-remains

   Indeed, you would think that the Green Party would have figured out by now who they are and what they stand for. I recommend a short-course: Realpolitik-101.
   • Stuart Munro 7.1

     7 May 2023 at 6:46 pm

     It's a little too easy to blame EK for everything – she is an unsympathetic figure at the best of times – the perfect fall-person.

     When you have Jeanette Fitzsimons expressing uncharacteristic overwhelming anger and disappointment it is fair to say Shaw had gone completely off the reservation. And he hasn't come back.
     • Incognito 7.1.1

       7 May 2023 at 7:34 pm

       Who's blaming EK for everything? Not MD.
   • weka 7.2

     7 May 2023 at 8:07 pm

     that's a very good read.

     Useful to have an explanation of why the investigation was taking so long. And that Kerekere had agreed to the process last year.
8. bwaghorn 8

   7 May 2023 at 12:10 pm

   https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/131919854/why-raising-gst-could-be-the-easiest-way-to-make-the-rich-pay-more-tax

   Sounds like a plan , although I bet the average income earner that's not claiming any child support, or rent subsidie will cope most the pain
   • Sabine 8.1

     7 May 2023 at 12:24 pm

     If the rich people are simply beneficiaries of their businesses then they will barely pay any GST as a good accountant will make sure that they don't.

     Joe / Jane Six Pack will have no such luck, they buy their groceries and will pay what ever GST is in full with no refunds.

     We should have learned that lesson when GST was increased under John Key.
     • weka 8.1.1

       7 May 2023 at 1:20 pm

       read the article. He's saying increase GST, increase benefits, decrease tax on lower income earners. Basically low income people end up with net zero increase, but wealthy people pay more.

       But if nothing else changed, a rise in GST would punish the poor, beneficiaries and those on New Zealand Super. That is clearly not what we want.

       So any increase in GST revenue would have to be offset via lower income tax rates, and higher benefits, including NZ Super.

       For example, a GST increase from 15% to 20% would mean another $12.3 billion in taxes, which could be entirely offset by lifting the tax bands for everyone, and benefit/NZ Super payments. The effect could be net-zero for everyone except the rich, who would pay more in GST.
       • Sabine 8.1.1.1

         7 May 2023 at 5:26 pm

         Every time a price goes up, GST goes up. This is saying that the increase in benefit – John Keys first year of reign saw a NZD 25 increase in benefits took care of the increased costs in goods via the GST increase from 12.5 % to 15%.
         https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/274358/welfare-increases-what-$25-buys-you#:~:text=Twenty%2Dfive%20dollars%20may%20seem,depending%20on%20who%20you%20ask.&text=The%20Government's%20Budget%20this%20week,have%20been%20increased%20since%201972.
         I don't think that the math mathes well.

         And the rich don't pay GST unless they have a really really shitty accountant. Hence why the rich currently actually are not that big a payer compared to others who can not write of costs of doing business, and who are not 'beneficiaries' trusts, businesses and .orgs.

         I still think a 0 income tax rate for low incomes to be offset with a high income tax for incomes above a certain limit – i.e. as taxation in OZ is actually better, and then a low 'sales' tax as that is all GST is. It is a cut for the middle man called Government who actually is the biggest beneficiary of creeping price costs and inflation as their GST intake is increasing without ever having to announce a tax raise. Ka-ching.

         But to believe that anyone else but the end consumer actually pays GST has not ever done a GST return.
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 8.2

     7 May 2023 at 1:51 pm

     This is stupid and wrong, and it seems the author has not actually read the IRD report.

     One of the points in the original report, is that the wealthier you are, you pay proportionally less GST than poorer people (because poor people spend more of their money on goods subject to GST).

     The High-Wealth Individuals Research Project report says this about the rich people in their study:

     For this group, GST paid is tiny, relative to their
     economic income compared with the other 90% of taxpayers.

     So the author proposes increasing the rate of a tax, which the wealthy pay very, very little of in any case….
     • weka 8.2.1

       7 May 2023 at 3:01 pm

       do you think the figures in the article are wrong?
       • UncookedSelachimorpha 8.2.1.1

         7 May 2023 at 7:57 pm

         The problem is, the article doesn't even include the relevant figures. The idea suggested in the article is to increase tax on the rich by raising GST. Very strange starting point to choose a tax that is famously regressive (poor people pay more). They then consider raising GST from 15% to 20%, increasing tax revenue by $12.3b. The missing figure is how much of that 12.3b would be paid by the rich?

         The article implies that the rich pay lots of GST ("Why GST? Because the one thing that unites the wealthy is that they love buying things…And GST taxes all of it. "). But the reality (confirmed by the IRD report) is that the rich pay very little GST. So the impact on the rich of increasing GST will be an increase in what is only a miniscule part of their total tax payments.

         The article suggests trying to reduce the impact on ordinary people of the GST increase by applying other redistributive measures. Why not directly apply a redistributive measure to the problem instead – for example, a wealth tax?
         • weka 8.2.1.1.1

           7 May 2023 at 8:17 pm

           thanks. And yes, a wealth tax seems a no brainer.
     • bwaghorn 8.2.2

       7 May 2023 at 5:10 pm

       Maybe bling tax at 50% we could call it a carbon tax on excess behaviors!!
       • Graeme 8.2.2.1

         7 May 2023 at 7:29 pm

         That's pretty much were we were with our sales tax and import duty regime before the Rogernomes came along with GST and open borders.

         Not entirely sure I want to go back there, but it did make for a very different society to what we have now. There's a lot of aspects of that society that weren't that flash, but would be nice to get to something that had the good bits of then and now.
         • pat 8.2.2.1.1

           7 May 2023 at 7:37 pm

           The capital controls that existed then would be too problematic for the existing paradigm…especially given our current preferred status within it.
9. Roy Cartland 9

   7 May 2023 at 1:42 pm

   Given how much GST can get written off as spurious "business" expenses now, wouldn't any increase just go unpaid as well? I asked Stubbs the same at his Simplicity road show a while back, and he agreed that the would have to be better regulation as well as.
   • Belladonna 9.1

     7 May 2023 at 2:09 pm

     Given that the IRD can't even manage to identify for tax purposes people who are clearly making a business out of house-flipping – it seems profoundly unlikely that they will do so for GST.
   • Graeme 9.2

     7 May 2023 at 2:41 pm

     While the unregistered focus on the ability to claim back 15% of your expenses, you've also got to pay GST on your earnings. So effectively you pay 15% of your profit / drawings as GST, and that's before any Income Tax on the same profit. Even for small businesses that aren't making a huge profits, GST is brutal, your end of year tax might be quite modest and you're only paying 9%, but you've already paid 15% GST on those earnings.

     And cunning plans to structure so you can claim the GST on your living expenses very quickly get IRD's interest, particularly if the amounts getting up there. Have a ex neighbour who just come a gutsa over a flash home stay / airbnb that was always booked out.
     • Descendant Of Smith 9.2.1

       9 May 2023 at 9:45 pm

       It is hardly brutal as the cost is borne not by the seller but by the buyer.

       What you are suggesting is that the seller meets this cost – fuck off no they don't I do as the customer. In my view all GST should be automatically sent to IRD at the point of sale.

       The same for PAYE and student loan repayments – that is my money, for my tax, not the business owners.

       I'm sure with modern sophisticated systems GST being claimed by businesses could be automated at POS as well.
10. Roy Cartland 10

    7 May 2023 at 1:44 pm

    (Sorry, I couldn't enter text into the field when hitting reply)
11. Incognito 11

    7 May 2023 at 2:53 pm

    I have read the article mentioned and linked to by Sanctuary (https://thestandard.org.nz/the-future-of-the-monarchy/#comment-1948501) and recommended also by SPC (https://thestandard.org.nz/the-future-of-the-monarchy/#comment-1948655). It is long and it is bleak. Personally, I found the last few paragraphs the most insightful.

    https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/04/27/britain-is-dead/

    The title speaks for itself.
12. joe90 12

    7 May 2023 at 2:55 pm

    Rats fleeing the sinking ship.

    In the temporarily occupied Melitopol of the Zaporizhzhia region, Russian invaders are burning documents in sacks in the premises of the so-called police and taking away equipment from the occupation passport office. This was announced by the mayor of Melitopol, Ivan Fedorov.

    “In Melitopol, the computers and servers of the occupation passport office took an indefinite leave,” the mayor wrote in his Telegram.

    According to him, the occupiers are hastily packing the equipment and taking it in an unknown direction towards Russia. Some documents are burned to the ground.

    “There is no less commotion in the building of the occupation military police – documents are burned in sacks all day,” Fedorov said.

    https://glavcom-ua.translate.goog/country/incidents/u-melitopoli-okupanti-paljat-dokumenti-mishkami-mer-rozpoviv-pro-situatsiju-v-misti-925072.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=nui

    (Fedorov elected mayor of Melitopol in 2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Fedorov_(politician) )
13. Johnr 13

    7 May 2023 at 6:39 pm

    Here is a feel good story for a sunday evening.

    I've just spent most of the day on my laptop and phone in contact with my business accountant, sorting year end stuff. No he's not charging extra.

    Reason. He is taking his 12 staff and partners, minus children, to Fiji for 10 days on Wednesday. His staff had a confab and said to Lindsay how about we work the weekend and some late nights at no cost. So when we get back we won't have a deadline backup to work to.

    What a stunning atmosphere that must be.

    I've always mainly dealt with Lindsay as almost 30 years ago he hung out his shingle and I saw that, as a newly minted contractor and thought, I need one of those so I went and saw him. I was his first customer. Bloody cracking guy.
14. joe90 14

    7 May 2023 at 6:43 pm

    Meet Tommy Fitz.

    While drinking, a Pilot bet he could land outside the bar, 2 hours later he touched down in central New York in a stolen aircraft. Years later he repeated the stunt because someone wouldn't believe him.

    

    https://twitter.com/historyinmemes/status/1654244355673128960

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Fitzpatrick_(pilot)
    • alwyn 14.1

      7 May 2023 at 7:04 pm

      The maddest pilot I ever heard of was the one who, in 1919, landed his plane on the roof of the 6 story Galerie Lafayette department store in Paris. The area he landed in was about 28m by 12m. Here is a film of the event.

      The building is next to the Opera House. You can go up to the roof where there is a plaque celebrating the event.
      • joe90 14.1.1

        7 May 2023 at 8:03 pm

        Rural legend around these parts has an ex WW2 pilot dodging being caught yet again pissed in charge by winging it from his 40 acre town supply rehab dairy unit to the local airport in a Piper Cub, cabbing it to the pub and back, and then flying home, pissed, before dark.

        The legend has it that the only time mum ever truly worried was when he'd been shifting electric fences.
15. joe90 15

    7 May 2023 at 8:26 pm

    Souvenir edition.

    

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