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Open mike 07/08/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 7th, 2020 - 239 comments
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Open mike is your post.

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239 comments on “Open mike 07/08/2020 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    7 August 2020 at 6:56 am

    Bryce Edwards, lecturer in Politics at Victoria University, surveys the scene at the start of the election campaign proper: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12354423

    It's hard to see when would be a better time than right now to hear about how parties are going to deal with the new economic reality and rebuilding both economy and society.

    Which throws into high relief the reluctance of the Nat/Lab establishment to front up and deliver. Colin James sees it too (https://democracyproject.nz/2020/07/28/colin-james-does-history-tell-us-anything-about-the-2020-election/). The

    need for innovative policy is at the heart of this election

    Tough. Labour and National don't want to know. The soft plopping sound you hear is their heads plunging into the sand – Nat/Lab ostriches know how to avoid the approaching lion of reality.

    • Incognito 1.1
      7 August 2020 at 8:28 am

      You missed your cue to tell Bryce to crawl back into his “ivory-tower bubble”.

      In case Bryce and you missed it, there’s a global pandemic raging beyond our borders and an appropriate ‘innovative policy’ at this moment in time is to keep it out before it destroys our domestic economy and threatens our society.

      • Andre 1.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 8:32 am

        Yup. Eliminating it and then successfully keeping it out, when nobody else in the world (except Taiwan) has succeeded in that and very few are really even trying, counts as highly innovative in my books.

        • Sabine 1.1.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 10:52 am

          You might want to look at Vietnam. Because they have done such a stellar job for a socalled emerging economy. They actually had less death then we did, and are country of 90 millions.

          https://www.google.com/search?q=vietnam+covid+statistics&oq=Vietnam+Covid+statis&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57.5352j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

          That is to say i don't have an issue with what Bryce is saying. Covid is going to stay with us for a few years. No matter how much we might be able to 'eliminate' it here – keep in mind it is here and it is arriving here with returning Kiwis.

          At the end of it all, at somestage living with Covid will be to a large extend like living with HIV – for which we still have no vaccine, which people still get mainly because of sex without condoms – go figure.

          But we still need to see what the government plans re the local economy and just having shovel ready jobs to please the male based industry is nothing for the women – whom have lost the majority of jobs. But then, maybe they are just women and they can just go home, have babies, please hubby and hope to not get hte bash on friday like the good old days. I would also like to point out that the last of the wage subsidy extention is going to run out, once the covid unemployment runs out we are having a huge number of people out of jobs on a pittance of benefits (again, Labour can change this and hopefully will) and one can not run a local economy when half the country tries to survive of social welfare and rent subsidy.

          So yes, can the government and the people of the country do both? Be sensible in regards to covid and come up with ways that we have an economy that works for all and not just some?

    • Ad 1.2
      7 August 2020 at 8:40 am

      If Bryce Edwards wanted to do a useful job instead of whining about promises like a baby seeking a bottle, all he would have to do is go back to the Wellbeing Budget social and economic measures and put out a progress report card.

      Now that would be useful policy-focused political analysis for voters.

      • Patricia Bremner 1.2.1
        7 August 2020 at 9:03 am

        That would not suit his agenda Ad. Bryce always quotes everyone else and slants things to favour the right.

        • Tricledrown 1.2.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 9:42 am

          Bryce Edward's is a well off NZer making top money for being a political analyst .To far removed from the struggles the majority of us face everyday.

          • greywarshark 1.2.1.1.1
            7 August 2020 at 10:01 am

            I agree with everybody's comments. If Bryce Edwards says something look for the right-wing lean. He probably has to have corrective manipulation by a physiotherapist. Here he is just stirring to appear up with the play, while not making any inroads into our ongoing problems caused by bad economic policies of four decades.

          • Sabine 1.2.1.1.2
            7 August 2020 at 10:57 am

            burn the witch on the stake.

            Gareth Morgan is so filthy rich he don't even pay taxes and is open and proud about it. But we had to take him and his TOP bullshit seriously.

            Shamubeel Eaqub guy looks like he is well paid and well fed and clothed too.

            Shall we burn these guys too or only the once that dare to actually demand more from the government then what they have offered so far?

            or are we to fall in lockstep and shut the fuck up? 🙂 And then the question remains, why the fuck would i vote for them?

            • mikesh 1.2.1.1.2.1
              7 August 2020 at 2:12 pm

              Persons so "filthy rich" that they don't pay taxes usually keep quiet about it. Morgan speaks openly about it in order to point up the flaws in the system that allow him to get away with it. He has suggested solutions to the problems, both in his book The Big Kahuna, and also through his formation of the Opportunities Party in 2017.

              Most home owners, having a vested interest in the status quo, don't see eye to eye with him.

              The greedy bastards.

            • Patricia Bremner 1.2.1.1.2.2
              7 August 2020 at 6:40 pm

              Sabine nowhere did we say "Burn him" He would be a Warlock by the way lol

              We say be even handed. Which he is not. (Bryce)

              Tell us Sabine, do you think we should let the virus in? Those wanting Private Isolation and Quarantine Hotels would end up like Victoria.

              Australia has 11% unemployment currently. Covid and internal economy don't go together. I am fecking voting for the crowd keeping it out.

              You don't have an economic cake with covid.

    • sumsuch 1.3
      8 August 2020 at 1:31 am

      Colin James is still alive?! Apologist for 84 in the language of 35. Useful in the day. Not for 35ist NZ of course.

      I really wanted to hear Bryce's breakdown of the obituries for Mike Moore, but he not around, of a sudden. The MSM describing the gent as a 'hero of the working class' on the same grounds as they could describe Bob Jones — both grew up in statehouses.

      But apparently only I felt the insult. The rewriting of the reality of our history before our eyes. '1984' in front of me. It was a shock. Waiting for the utter stream of diarrhea that meets Douglas's death.

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    7 August 2020 at 7:06 am

    Bernard Hickey demonstrates how the PM is defining herself:

    This week Jacinda Ardern revealed herself as a small 'c' conservative, focused on maintaining the current shape and (historically and comparatively small) size of government, but with a friendlier face. She confirmed Labour had no plans for major new spending or tax or welfare reform in the last full post-Cabinet news conference of her first term.

    Instead, voters should look at the Government's current achievements, its plans for Covid-19 recovery and Budget 2020's debt track as an indicator of 'steady-as-she-goes'. There is no more. That is it.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/a-2nd-term-pm-for-crises-and-the-status-quo

    Seems she feels she must present as a reliable manager only. Transformational was 2017 – been there, done that.

    After months of wondering if she was about to flex her new and larger political muscles to pull a big policy rabbit out of the hat, she tapped the hat, turned it upside down, asked us to peer inside at the emptiness, and put it back down on the table: a popular magician without a trick who doesn't harm rabbits.

    Her rationalisation that high Labour polling is no basis for imagining a resilient sustainable future is obviously an attempt to ensure that centrists don't shift back to National. Presuming most centrists are too stupid to want a resilient sustainable future could be the flaw in her thinking, eh?

    • Incognito 2.1
      7 August 2020 at 8:36 am

      Transformational was 2017 – been there, done that.

      The flaw in your thinking is to gloss over a major global event that necessitated a change of plans. To keep the little raft called HMS Aotearoa away from the rocks is top priority. There’s plenty of policy material and detail if you open your eyes and want to see it. However, I’m sure the electorate thinks exactly like you and Bernard Hickey and is eagerly awaiting transformative policies that herald a time of unprecedented change in and of our economy and society; it’s Mass Psychology 101.

      • weka 2.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 11:11 am

        the flaw in that argument is the idea that Labour actually had the intention to do something transformational before covid hit. That's debatable.

        • In Vino 2.1.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 7:18 pm

          Please – give our little raft at least the dignity of the title 'HMNZS Aotearoa'.

      • sumsuch 2.1.2
        8 August 2020 at 1:36 am

        Means and ends. You're up with the means but the ends of those don't lead anywhere we need to go.

    • Ad 2.2
      7 August 2020 at 8:37 am

      The centrists now constitute everyone except 4% for Act and 5% for the Greens.

      You're welcome.

      • I Feel Love 2.2.1
        7 August 2020 at 9:03 am

        Exactly Ad, if one of those parties suddenly gets past the 20% then maybe the 2 big parties will change too. Labour are the only Centrist party, National are Centrist in drag, they're never honest coz they know they'd be on ACT numbers if they were.

    • ScottGN 2.3
      7 August 2020 at 9:02 am

      I have a lot of time for Bernard Hickey. Bruce Edwards not so much. But all the commentators seem to have forgotten what happened the last time Ardern and Labour stuck their heads up above the parapet and offered up a far reaching policy shift in tax. They got crucified by the establishment in this country for daring to suggest we adopt a fairly standard capital gains tax. Now they are heavy favourites to win the election is it any wonder they won’t make the same mistake twice?

      • Dennis Frank 2.3.1
        7 August 2020 at 9:13 am

        I favour the `enemy within' thesis to explain that cowardice. Did the first Labour govt wimp out during the depression? No, it did what was required. Same logic applies.

        Difference is that unity happened back then. Nowadays I reckon there are both genuine progressives within Labour and those addicted to fakery, and the latter have the numbers to prevail currently.

        I do agree it is smart politics for JA to outflank National on the right. It worked for HC, so she would be recycling a proven method. At the cost of authenticity in the minds of all genuinely progressive folks…

        • greywarshark 2.3.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 10:16 am

          It's educational, informative to look at history and how things unrolled at that time. It is important to compare then and now when looking to repeat procedures and triumphs of policy. ScottGN makes the best point I think.

          It seems to me that PM Ardern is doing another Helen Clark; we will have to win this election noting all the dilatory types staggering on from 20th century thinking and drag them into the forward-looking political bubble.

          Yesterday I read a regular commenter from New Plymouth talking about extragavant spending there by Council, making a move towards present requirements which failed; expensive and poorly researched. This sort of thing examples the thinking of the many in positions with power to make a difference. They are just playing at facing the future, being bold and accepting new procedures, thinking is needed; their hands behind their backs with fingers crossed in childish defiance.

      • RedBaronCV 2.3.2
        7 August 2020 at 10:44 am

        Agree. The commentators almost feel like they are throwing a hissy fit because there is not a raft of new details that they can attack labour on. Actually they could sit down and analyse the effects of some of the policy that is there.

        Education has signaled that they want a high value overseas student sector not a visa selling rip off and the pandemic has hastened these decisions. National want to open the doors.They could sit down and analyse the economic effects of these two policies but they don't because it would call Nats plans out as rubbish.

        Mostly Labour seem to be letting things (& us) settle down rather than throwing any dramatic curveballs ( Savage came in a few years after the depression had taken hold) nudging outcomes in the best direction for all of us. And they seem to be shaping their responses by all of public opinion not just the well off in the media. If they continue this step by step process of making lives better that's a direction of travel I can live with and stuff it if it doesn't make a policy filled campaign.

        And when did Nact last campaign on on any public platform that they kept or reflected in their actions when in power.

        _

        • greywarshark 2.3.2.1
          7 August 2020 at 1:32 pm

          When thinking about Michael Savage we should remember that he had to fight to get his policy through Parliament. He became ill and stuck at it; John Lee was a firebrand with strong beliefs – which were not the same as Savage's – and he was trying to get him sidelined on the grounds that the job was increasing his illness.

          Savage should have had time off to tackle his cancer, I think it was, but wanted to be sure his cohort's votes and his own were there at the crucial time in Parliament. He was prepared to die and put himself last, and the policy for welfare for all first, while there was this opportunity after the Depression to concentrate people's minds and their morals on positive change.

          I have read some of the history and that's my take on what Savage achieved and what he put into it. PM Jacinda is also putting aside much of her personal life for the good of the country, so there is time for some good positives too from her.

      • weka 2.3.3
        7 August 2020 at 11:14 am

        But all the commentators seem to have forgotten what happened the last time Ardern and Labour stuck their heads up above the parapet and offered up a far reaching policy shift in tax. They got crucified by the establishment in this country for daring to suggest we adopt a fairly standard capital gains tax. Now they are heavy favourites to win the election is it any wonder they won’t make the same mistake twice?

        the CGT thing was before the election when Labour when it was still unclear if they could win the election. Now they're above 60%.

        Best strategy for lefties who want tax reform is to vote Green. That way the Greens can do the heavy lifting on tax debate without Labour having to cop all the flack. Needs more Green MPs for that to work though.

        • mikesh 2.3.3.1
          7 August 2020 at 3:36 pm

          She, and Michael Cullen, must have known, prior to forming the TWG, that NZF would veto a CGT. Perhaps she was hoping that the group would come up with something better. Better options were available, of course, but they may have been too radical for Labour to take the initiative on.

          • weka 2.3.3.1.1
            7 August 2020 at 3:40 pm

            or NZF.

            Only way to know what Labour actually think is to not have NZF in govt.

      • mikesh 2.3.4
        7 August 2020 at 2:57 pm

        for daring to suggest we adopt a fairly standard capital gains tax.

        Which would have had very little effect on our dysfunctional housing market. Michael Cullen and his Tax Working Group let them down, rather, by failing to come up with something better, though better options were available.

    • Sabine 2.4
      7 August 2020 at 11:00 am

      kinder

      gentler

      bullshit.

      that is my issue i have with the current lot. it is all just bullshit. You still get the run around if you need a benefit. You still don't get the benefit one is entitled too. But at least they offer you now a chair when you wait for an appointment filing for unemployment.
      (and this is what a lot of people have voted Labour for, to reform welfare, access to needed benefits that have been paid for by the people working and paying taxes, and still nothing has changed).

      Kinder

      gentler

      bullshit

      • Just Is 2.4.1
        7 August 2020 at 12:22 pm

        Wasn't there a Handbrake in Govt, you know, MMP, where all parties get to decide on policies, how come you think Labour could just enforce their policies.

        You only have to listen to James Shaws adjournment speech yesterday to recognise that many of the policies that would/should have been introduced were curbed by NZF, but thats how MMP works

        Your views are still in the FPP days, 2 decades ago, compromise is the rule rather than the exception.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    7 August 2020 at 7:14 am

    Asked by Corin Dann what Labour's tax and economic policy was, given postal voting would start in just over four weeks, she pointed to the Government's track record and its current five point plan for Covid-19 recovery, focused on retraining. "That five point plan really is giving a very strong indication of the momentum we want to maintain should we be re-elected. What we'll be doing over this election period is yes adding some additional aspects, but I would flag to voters not to expect to see large scale manifestos that are a significant departure from what we're doing," Ardern said. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/a-2nd-term-pm-for-crises-and-the-status-quo

    See what she did? He asked what the policy was & she didn't tell him the answer, but instead delivered the verbal equivalent of "Hey, look over there!"

    Why is it vitally important for her to mask the lack of Labour's tax and economic policy? I presume the decision was made by whoever does strategic thinking for the Labour campaign that voters are actually turned off by policy documents.

    • Ad 3.1
      7 August 2020 at 8:35 am

      The tax policy is exactly what it is right now.

      There you go.

      • Dennis Frank 3.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 8:56 am

        Yeah, nice zen response, mirrors hers – deflects his request to specify the policy. I'm not ruling out the possibility that the actual policy will eventually show up in the media – just pointing out the various ruses being used to distract media/public from examining it. Smoke & mirrors do work, but often prove unsustainable.

    • Incognito 3.2
      7 August 2020 at 8:45 am

      You missed the answer, Dennis, because you weren’t listening and at the same thinking that people think like you. Your binary paranoia is clouding your mind with biased BS thoughts and the only antidote is to empty your mind of all the baggage has been accumulated and stored there over more than one life time and just observe what’s going on in the world at this very moment in time. It takes praxis to undo praxis and adopt a new praxis of disentanglement and detachment. Let it go and be free of the burden of your thinking.

    • observer 3.3
      7 August 2020 at 8:55 am

      All Dennis' posts basically repeat the same thing, so I suppose we just have to keep repeating the same answer:

      Parliament ended yesterday. Campaigning starts today. Labour launch at the weekend. Policies will be rolled out in the same way as always … each day, to get maximum positive headlines on the campaign trail. A photo-op at a hospital = a health policy, a visit to a school = an education policy, and so on. A series of debates will feature the finance spokespeople, talking tax policy and the economy. There is a predictable timetable, including the TV leaders' debates.

      This is what they do every 3 years, so why pretend to be indignant about the obvious?

      • Dennis Frank 3.3.1
        7 August 2020 at 9:07 am

        I wasn't feeling indignant when I reported those views from opinion-leaders, just wanted to point out that the expectations expressed here by many in response to the pandemic in recent months are shared by influential folk in the establishment.

        Yes of course Labour's pretence at being progressive is traditional. Most of us know that – have known it all our lives – so we expect the sham as usual. If they do something good, I'll happily acknowledge their temporary nonconformism! 😎

        • observer 3.3.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 9:13 am

          No need to waste time with "opinion-leaders"(a very debatable description). That's just talkback in text.

          Go to the source:

          Adjournment debate, yesterday. Start with Ardern's speech.

        • xanthe 3.3.1.2
          7 August 2020 at 9:21 am

          "when I reported those views from opinion-leaders"

          screw your "opinion leaders" are you really that vacuous?

          • Dennis Frank 3.3.1.2.1
            7 August 2020 at 10:33 am

            You think opinion-leaders in the media don't influence public opinion?? Judging by your comments here in the past, I wouldn't have thought you were that naive. They do. That's why news & political media have used them since forever.

            • xanthe 3.3.1.2.1.1
              7 August 2020 at 3:26 pm

              and you have no problem with "news" media featuring "opinion leaders"?, you cant see the conflict of interest? , You dont get the "opinion leading" has largely replaced news on most platforms? You have no problem with this?

              • Dennis Frank …
                7 August 2020 at 4:16 pm

                Oh, I see. It's true that I did feel the same as you when I first thought about it long ago. The propriety around it is murky. Columnists tend not to have a disclaimer at the top specifying who is paying them and if their contract includes editorial direction, eh?

                Media were originally owned only by those who created them, and each context had different wealth & power levers to be operated by a successful entrepreneur before success was attained. Whereupon the owner eventually employed others to do the messaging, while retaining publisher's rights over the output. Later, states assumed hegemony and some produced their own media. Eventually, a pretence that such systems served the common interests of the citizens was exhibited.

                So the question of conflict of interest that may arise in the minds of you & I, driven by our personal values, isn't necessarily widely shared. We don't get taught this stuff as part of our education. My insights into it came partly from my career in the media and partly from having read history as a hobby since I was a child.

                Media politics, unfortunately, is not driven by shared perception of our common interests alone. It is also driven by vested interests. I'd like to see media charters that compel provision of public service instituted – but that idea has always been too radical for leftists to consider, let alone adopt.

        • woodart 3.3.1.3
          7 August 2020 at 9:27 am

          so ,you recycled somebody elses whinge. opinion leaders? nah. get off your high horse and think for yourself, instead of recycling bulldust.

    • mauī 3.4
      7 August 2020 at 8:58 am

      Absolutely correct. Thank you Dennis. I agree, looks like Labour is hiding policy.. yet again.

      • Incognito 3.4.1
        7 August 2020 at 9:04 am

        Like it was ‘hiding’ KiwiBuild, you mean? A policy so obscure that nobody has ever heard of it? Did it even exist or was it just a fidget of imagination?

        • greywarshark 3.4.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 10:31 am

          Here is a fidget of information that political thinkers will enjoy. If heard before, it is ever fresh and relevant.

          https://www.ngataonga.org.nz/collections/catalogue/catalogue-item?record_id=303644

          [this programme is also known as The Politician’s Guide to Ducking Awkward Questions]

          This is an aural instruction manual for incoming politicians giving guidance on how to answer those tricky questions from the media when you’d rather not. Using examples from the masters, including Sir Keith Holyoake, Sir Robert Muldoon, Winston Peters, Helen Clark and Jenny Shipley, the guide offers advice about giving earnest, fulsome and convincing replies without actually answering the questions. The Guide takes us through the Seven Strategies of Successful Subject-Shifting, including Answering a Slightly Different Question, the "Let-Me-Just-Say-This" Manoeuvre, Attacking the Critic and the Amazing Shipley One-Size-Fits-All Multi-Purpose Response.

    • Sabine 3.5
      7 August 2020 at 11:02 am

      retraining? To pick fruit n milk cows?

      good fucking grief. Retraining….the worlds oldest bullshit rewarmed.

      • bwaghorn 3.5.1
        7 August 2020 at 11:18 am

        Where I live during the great depression men cycled 15 kms on gravel rds to swing shovels and picks building rds for a pennies a day .

        So yip if picking or milking cows is all that going in these tough times ,get off your fucking arse and go do it . Even if it means relocating.

        Sitting on your arse whinging about how it should be is dumb arse shit .

        • greywarshark 3.5.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 1:18 pm

          Perhaps sabine you think that there will be many good jobs working on the AI controlled air cargo flights being developed in Nelson? Nothing like machines to take over human jobs.

          What if we get to the stage where we are shown unmistakably by machine-collected data that we are utterly unwanted in this place. Then maybe babies get drowned in buckets as was said to have happened somewhere in China under their one child policy (as reported by Readers Digest, practically an agent for USA hegemony and propaganda.)

          • bwaghorn 3.5.1.1.1
            7 August 2020 at 3:58 pm

            Those kind machines will build us a nice orbital out amongst the stars furnished with all the bells and whistles and we can lounge our little lives away .

      • Peter 3.5.2
        7 August 2020 at 2:40 pm

        There were a couple of accounts on radio this morning about that sort of stuff – you know "unemployed pilot now milking cows" sort of stories.

        It happens. I'm trying to work out how that's the "worlds oldest bullshit rewarmed."

        It sounded to me like people retraining out of necessity for jobs they didn't originally see themselves doing.

        Cowshit yes, bullshit no.

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    7 August 2020 at 7:21 am

    Asked why the Government needed to be so fiscally conservative and worry about debt when it had the lowest debt in the OECD and it could borrow for less than 1.0 percent, she said: "It's a good question because we have always been careful around our fiscal management." https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/a-2nd-term-pm-for-crises-and-the-status-quo

    She decided not to explain why, and issued a compliment to mask her evasion, then positioned Labour as staunch adherents to neoliberal austerity doctrine. The necessity of fronting as the high priestess of neoliberalism escapes me. Perhaps someone else can explain it?? The doctrine became trendy post-gfc to get govts out of deep shit – but her govt is flush, so economics can't explain her stance.

    • Hanswurst 4.1
      7 August 2020 at 7:45 am

      … because she believes in it?

      • Sabine 4.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 11:17 am

        She can believe what she wants, the question is do we need to borrow more? Should she borrow more? Can the country afford it.

        I belive a lot of things, very earnestly too, but then time change and believes changes. So currently i don't give a fuck what she believes or not, i want to know what they are planning for the next three years so as to see if i will vote for them or humpty dumpty. Because there is always Humpty Dumpty.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 11:24 am

          "…currently i don't give a fuck what she [PM Ardern] believes…" "Because there is always Humpty Dumpty."? Brownlee trying to put ChCh back together again?

          • Sabine 4.1.1.1.1
            7 August 2020 at 11:27 am

            NO humpty dumpty as in anyone else but. Your choice to go for brownlee, i would go for the socialists if we had any in this country.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1.1.1.1.1
              7 August 2020 at 11:32 am

              Thanks for the clarification Sabine – Brownlee was my (best) choice guess.

              • Sabine …
                7 August 2020 at 11:42 am

                it seems that the binary choice of NZ – red vs blue seems to affect many. I.e. if one does not go for the red choice it must be blue. The way i see it is that Labour is purple, and way to blue for me. I will vote for them if i have too, but i take no joy in it. Nor do i feel that our current lot did anything spectacular. I feel they did what they ought to do, keep the country safe and stable. So no extra cookies from me for doing a job they wanted to do when running.

                But this shooting down people that don't totally walk lockstep is annoying as heck. We all have priorities in live, and often we base our votes around our priorities. And to ask what are the policies, what are the economic plans in place, to ask when will the kinder gentler bullshit be rolled out to the least looked after population in our country is not 'against' labour, it should be done by all who want to vote.

                Yet, it seems that if one is not a hundred percent happy with the current lot that they should get burned.

                I have never voted for national, in fact if you go back to my comments to the time of the hairpuller you will see that i am an equal opportunist when it comes to our selected suits in parliament. I dislike all of them, i consider all of them civilian failures for whom parliament is the best earning option without ever having to actually achieve something.

                But i do want to know what Labour has planned and it seems they are reluctant to let us know. It is ok, considering that Covid makes planning a bit hard, but take for example 'retraining' of our current and future unemployed. What would she like us to retrain too? Where would she like us to retrain? Vs, i would like to know if early retirement would be an option for people mid – fifties and older rather then unemployment? Increase in base benefits for unemployed as they stand a chance of being long term unemployed et.

                And frankly that is fair and should not lead to howls of discontent by others.

                • Sacha …
                  7 August 2020 at 11:48 am

                  Political parties plan out the release of policy during their campaign. It's unfortunate if that timing does not suit us or the media who want answers today.

                  • Sabine …
                    7 August 2020 at 12:07 pm

                    i don't give a fuck about the media, and i don't think i have ever commented on the media or its bobble heads, as i neither watch tv nor listen to radio, i consider both a waste of time. But i read a lot, and having a shop i talk to a lot of people.

                    So yes, i would like to know a few things, and i think it is fair to ask about it. At some stage i and others will cast our votes and chances are i do so early as always. So why should i vote for a party that is reluctant to even hint at what they are going to do. And considering the times we live in why not now?

                    And the two points that i listed imo are points that they could actually talk about. What happens with another outbreak, consider that Bloomfield started that discussion yesterday with his 'not if, but when' comment. What happens to those to old to be retrained and to old to be hired easily? Will unemployment benefits be increased to cope with higher cost of living. All of this is something they can start talking anytime they seem fit or after tea.

                    Labour can start talking or it won't. In the meantime all the other parties are talking. Go figure. Because as i stated, the No mates Party has its policies on their billboards while Labour tells us to 'keep moving'. Where too was the question i asked my Labour candidate wannabe. I got no answer, cause that would be 'policy'. Now why would i vote for the candidate or the party?

                    • Sacha …
                      7 August 2020 at 12:12 pm

                      All of this is something they can start talking anytime they seem fit

                      Yes, and there is just over a month until advance voting starts. Parliament only ended yesterday.

            • Brigid 4.1.1.1.1.2
              7 August 2020 at 12:16 pm

              "socialists if we had any in this country."

              Try Social Credit

              • Businesses owned by Kiwis, employing Kiwis, benefitting Kiwis, looking after our environment.
              • Control of New Zealand's economic affairs recovered and greater political and international independence.
              • With increasing automation, incomes maintained so that all may share the benefits, not just those at the top.
              • Systems and an economy that serve people, not big corporates, overseas owners, and speculators.

              https://www.socialcredit.nz/

          • Sacha 4.1.1.1.2
            7 August 2020 at 11:28 am

            The egg was pushed.

        • Just Is 4.1.1.2
          7 August 2020 at 12:31 pm

          So you're basically saying you'll vote for something that's Unknown (Humpty Dumpty) rather than for a political party with a century of experience and a distinct Social policy that's been part of the party for, well, forever.

          Good luck with Humpty Dumpty then, certainly hope he spouts some policies over the next few weeks for you to consider.

    • Andre 4.2
      7 August 2020 at 7:57 am

      Because a large segment of the voting public is uncomfortable about the idea of building massive debt and wants the government to try to be fiscally prudent. If nothing else, it's very sound politics to position as careful around fiscal management, rather than 'we'll borrow whatever we feel like to have a good time'.

      • Sacha 4.2.1
        7 August 2020 at 10:10 am

        Because the section of voters who might also vote for the Nats is uncomfortable. Others of us want more boldness and are willing to back what's needed to achieve that.

        • Andre 4.2.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 10:15 am

          Indeed. But it's the segment who might also vote for the Nats that end up swinging the election one way or the other. Hence the pandering to them.

      • Sabine 4.2.2
        7 August 2020 at 11:23 am

        quite a few currently would like to know if in another lockdown occures if there will be another wage subsidy.

        quite a few currently would like to know how to pay mortgages now that the Missus lost her job and chances are she won't be finding a new one – even with retraining as a fruit picker or a cow milker or a stop/go sign roadworker.

        quite a few currently would like to know how to live on unemployment benefits that were already outdated under the last National government but that are still current.

        so yes, quite a few people would like to know things, and it is up to the incumbent to let the voting public know what on earth they have planned.

        Cause their 'keep moving' Billboars are bullshit. It sounds a bit like 'move along dear' nothing to see nothing to hear.

        Compare this with Nationals Billboards : Jobs. 'Support local buisnesses' 'support your community'.

        Even NZFirst, Maori, Vision billboards are more informative then the Labour ones.

        Can't comment on the Greens, they obviously are not running here according to the complete lack of advertisment for them.

        And again, these are the billboards in Rotorua. Keep moving vs Support local businesses. Maybe like Kiwis the Labour party is getting a bit smug 'having beaten covid (until the next outbreak) and think its all done and we can go back to usual, doing fuck all until we have too.

      • Just Is 4.2.3
        7 August 2020 at 12:37 pm

        But the " massive debt" is comparable to Keys heavy borrowing, the difference is, Key was responsible for the economic failure that led to the BORROWING (tax cuts), where as the current situation is caused by a reaction to Global Pandemic.

    • Pat 4.3
      7 August 2020 at 8:13 am

      Risk/reward

      The current low interest rates are not universal.

      And the key word is current

      https://www.global-rates.com/en/interest-rates/central-banks/central-banks.aspx

    • Incognito 4.4
      7 August 2020 at 8:16 am

      Public perception. Some seem to think that running the Government books is like running a household or business. For example, what do people do when they see their neighbours, friends, and family borrow up large against the house to a ‘afford’ big spendings and lavish overseas holidays twice a year? It rubs off, doesn’t it? Don’t think like Dennis, think like somebody else for a change.

    • Ad 4.5
      7 August 2020 at 8:32 am

      oh Jesus really we have spent $30billion and counting in four months, are still rolling out hundreds of millions more per week on projects, and the moisties still accuse us of some shock doctrine or other.

      Give yourself a weekend reading Acemoglu and come back.

      We're about to drop another $30b next year without so much as blinking an eye.

      • Patricia Bremner 4.5.1
        7 August 2020 at 9:50 am

        Fortunately we have positioned for a natural disaster, and it has helped us deal with one coming from off shore. We had small debt compared to most countries so are not crippled by the amounts needed for this.

        A number of talking heads want us to believe the right would do better.

        How they would do better without the risk of allowing the virus in to decimate our economy is never explained, just hubris and "allow more over the borders".

        To hear Judith Collins, " she never fudged Police Stats, she crushed lots of cars and never lost one prisoner." So she and Gerry are far better managers (sarc) MY eyebrows are raised!!

        When did "managing" become a dirty word? We have been fortunate in the management of the virus threat here thanks to the WHO epidemiologists the Public Service and the Government that has protected lives and jobs.

        The alternative is starkly obvious in Victoria the GDP of the USA and Britain is a guide for what would happen here should the virus get away.

        Attacks come in a variety of forms. " Freedom" has been threatened according to some. The Government is using covid for "Politics." The Government hasn't "delivered" Finally it is "Where is the Policy?" Read the Budget 2020.

        We knew Dirty Politics would start with the campaign, but the outright lies and statements which are patently untrue is breathtaking. I guess the Right feel they have nothing to lose.

        There is a sense there is a campaign to break up the team of 5 million for political gain. The new understanding about mask wearing has become the latest lever.

      • Just Is 4.5.2
        7 August 2020 at 10:06 am

        No one blinked an eye when Key borrowed $120B to pay for the tax cuts, $65B was still owing when National lost the last election.

        It's OK for National to borrow heavily to cover up an economic fuckup but its a problem for Labour to borrow to get the country through the worst Global event in our lifetimes.

        • Sabine 4.5.2.1
          7 August 2020 at 11:46 am

          and this is very very true and the Labour party can change that standard procedure any day now. Cause the old days are gone forever.

      • Just Is 4.5.3
        7 August 2020 at 12:47 pm

        But the $30B is a quarter of what Key borrowed in 2011, over $60B was still owing when he left office, no one cared, but now we have a major Global event that is demolishing most western Economies and you complain, NZ is in a much better economic position than any other western economy right now cos we're all back at work, going to the footy and shopping at will.

        Would you rather have the USA experience, over 40 million unemployed, 70 thousand new virus cases a day and averaging more than a thousand deaths daily, what is the real Cost of those policies.

      • Stuart Munro 4.5.4
        7 August 2020 at 1:21 pm

        A careful dissection of where that money is going would not reveal any departure from the cult neoliberalism that has impoverished so many of us. Time was we earned decent money, rather than waiting for government largesse. But governments decided to sell our industries, and the promised economic benefits never materialised.

        Roll on the day they break out of the fiscal death spiral – but they will never do so without an existential threat, for it would require them to admit that they were wrong. Good governance is hostage to their egos, and escape is a forlorn hope.

    • Nic the NZer 4.6
      7 August 2020 at 11:10 am

      Austerity docterines became trendy following the GFC and the release of the Reinhart and Rogoff paper on growth rates and public debt. Unfortunately that paper collapsed and was demonstrated to be ridden with basic errors and ideological bias (after the harm was done and it became trendy already).

      In practice austerity helped zero countries and hurt many. Some examples, the UK went through a (predicted) double/tripple dip recession following its national Austerity turn. Only the first dip was attributable to the GFC in any way. Greece lost 20% of its GDP as a result of externally imposed Austerity policies. The forecast which accompanied the policies had been for growth to occur almost immediately. Australia sailed through the GFC but following the successful stimulus took an austerity turn. By 2020 Australias economy had worse unemployment than New Zealand with GDP matching this trend. In late 2019 Japan implemented the latest in a series of sales tax hike induced economic contractions. These are usually short lived due to the obvious causality involved.

      • Just Is 4.6.1
        7 August 2020 at 12:49 pm

        If only, Blinglish understood Economics, even a little bit.

        • Nic the NZer 4.6.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 12:59 pm

          There were plenty of economists involved in the austerity drives I described. Including Reinhardt and Rogoff.

    • Nic the NZer 4.7
      7 August 2020 at 6:06 pm

      Paul Samuelson explained quite clearly why this behaviour is religiously rather than economically justified,

      https://larspsyll.wordpress.com/2019/02/08/paul-samuelson-an-economist-in-the-business-of-dishonesty/

      This is why the low level of public debt doesn't in any way alter the policy relative to other countries.

  5. Peter 5
    7 August 2020 at 7:25 am

    Maybe she thinks that centrists might shift back to National on the back of some sensationalised nonscandal petroled on the slow burning election by someone like J Collins assisted by someone like D Garner.

    Judging what percentage of centrists are in that band that don't want triflings like a resilient sustainable future to inhibit their jumping on some hysterical righteous bandwagon is the challenge.

  6. Peter 6
    7 August 2020 at 7:37 am

    Hooton back in the Herald already. No pen-name there of course.

    'RaTitanic' would have been good to see.

  7. Sacha 7
    7 August 2020 at 8:16 am

    Nat candidate for Ak Central challenges alleged dirty tactics by other people in her party, including one of the other candidates. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/legal-threats-over-nats-auckland-central-selection

    In a letter to the pair, a copy of which was obtained by Newsroom, Auckland lawyer Julian Miles QC said he had been instructed that Samarakone had been “the subject of a damaging, malicious and untrue campaign against her arising after the Auckland Central selection process”.

    …

    Miles said Samarakone had “clear evidence” that one or both of the pair had instigated or been involved in the campaign, which she believed was inspired by the failure of one to be chosen as a potential nominee.

  8. RedLogix 8
    7 August 2020 at 8:34 am

    Last night a good friend of ours found herself back in Victoria found herself back in another 14 day iso after a possible workplace exposure. She sent us this message:

    "Things are going a bit stir crazy around here, this old house has lots of character, but now it's talking to me. I was just having a chat with the microwave and toaster while having a coffee, and they agreed it was getting bad. I didn't mention anything to the washing machine as she always puts her own spin on everything. The fridge is acting cold and distant, but the iron straightened things out nicely. Always finds his own wrinkle on things, no situation is too pressing for a chat.

    The vacuum was very unsympathetic, basically said just to suck it up, and the kitchen fan said it was all overblown nonsense. The toilet just looked embarrassed, didn't say anything and came over all flushed, but the door knob told me to get a grip … haha.

    I thought maybe I should get some fresh air, but the front door told me I was unhinged, and the living room curtains piped up that, you guessed it, that I should pull myself together. This place is far too crowded and noisy; I need to go somewhere more …. isolated."

    We're going to check back with her this morning.blush

    • Ad 8.1
      7 August 2020 at 8:42 am

      Mate set up a regular Zoom-drinks every 48 hours.

      Full lockdown here was pretty bad here and the walls of the study felt really high after a day on perpetual meetings.

      The mental health measures are really, really important. It can get desperate.

      • JohnSelway 8.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 10:21 am

        I was in Melbourne for the first wave and my mental health really did suffer. I am very glad I came back home when I did.

    • Shanreagh 8.2
      7 August 2020 at 9:06 am

      You may not need to – she may have 'zoomed' right into your living room.

    • Anne 8.3
      7 August 2020 at 10:32 am

      laugh Great character to have as a friend.

    • bwaghorn 8.4
      7 August 2020 at 11:23 am

      She sounds like shes one hell of a laugh. If she isnt a writer she should be.

    • Sabine 8.5
      7 August 2020 at 11:29 am

      Shrooms? Sounds like shrooms.

  9. Tricledrown 9
    7 August 2020 at 9:11 am

    Crusher saying if you want things done Gerry and me get things done.

    The bungled houses Gerry built in ChCh $1 billion plus of dodgy repairs cutting Mental Health funding at the time of the Earth quakes.

    Collins no cars crushed police funding cut.sacked by Key.

    Dodgy deals done dirt cheap.

    • I Feel Love 9.1
      7 August 2020 at 9:30 am

      I've yet to hear but the Brownlee RNZ interview is getting a lot of laughs on Twittersphere.

      • AB 9.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 9:50 am

        It was a hoot. Gerry simultaneously argued two contradictory positions on the call for people to have a supply of masks at home:

        1. The border is shambolic and the Government knows the virus will escape (if it hasn't already) and they should be making this clear rather than obliquely suggesting that people have masks
        2. The border is safe (no community transmission for 80+ days) and the Government is trying to scare people and make the election about Covid rather than their shambolic recovery effort

        Apart from the pure idiocy of it, he sounded petulant and irritated about not being in charge – which in his mind is the natural order of things. My partner was going to text something to RNZ about Gerry surely understanding the need for belt and braces – but decided against the body-shaming.

        • Bearded Git 9.1.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 10:06 am

          Agree AB…Brownlee seems to sound irritated and pissed-off even when he is making a half-decent point, which isn't often.

          It is this vibe that the public will pick up on.

        • Gabby 9.1.1.2
          7 August 2020 at 12:59 pm

          He was hurt, deeply hurt, by the suggestion he was scaremongering. He was just relating stuff he'd heard. It was the other lot scaremongering by preparing for bad stuff, and the bad stuff is going to happen because of their shambolicness, mark my words! We're dooomed.

  10. Just Is 10
    7 August 2020 at 9:20 am

    Peter Dunnes take on the Greens and NZFs chances of getting back into parliament, he paints a very negative picture for both.

    Interestingly, he leaves out ACT who haven't made the 5% threshold yet as he assumes Remuera is theirs.

    He also suggests that Labour would prefer the Greens to not be a partner in Govt, based on historical outcomes.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/the-sadness-of-a-support-partner-as-the-axe-looms

    • woodart 10.1
      7 August 2020 at 9:33 am

      dunne has been to more parties than paris hilton. apparentley he is the new sage on minor parties.

      • Just Is 10.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 10:10 am

        I don't think anyone ever worked out what Peter Dunne ever stood for.

        He only ever made up numbers in Parliament to form Govt, it didn't seem to matter which one, as long as he had his snout in the trough.

        • gsays 10.1.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 10:20 am

          Not knowing what he stands for (the scourge of synthetics aside), that's the beauty of flexible principles.

        • Sabine 10.1.1.2
          7 August 2020 at 11:31 am

          He stood for himself. Like so many others in parliament. i hear the pay and perks are very very good and you don't have to achieve a single thing to earn them.

        • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.3
          7 August 2020 at 3:29 pm

          I don't think anyone ever worked out what Peter Dunne ever stood for.

          Dunne summed it up when he said, in reference to being with National, Willing buyer, Willing seller.

          Dunne was always the seller and he got the best price for him – just like any mercenary.

      • greywarshark 10.1.2
        7 August 2020 at 10:35 am

        woodart – nice jibe. cheeky

    • Bearded Git 10.2
      7 August 2020 at 10:10 am

      Dunne is a Green hater.

      Having once been Labour, by the time he ignominiously gave up at the last election, refusing to contest Ohariu, he was closer to ACT than National in his outlook.

  11. Pat 11
    7 August 2020 at 9:31 am

    Chris Trotter asks the right question…but provides no answer.

    "Why are the nation’s two largest political parties no longer up to the task of fulfilling one of their principal functions? It was once an axiom of representative government that the primary responsibility for contributing the ideas and programmes advanced by political parties rested with their members. The larger the parties, the more comprehensive and unconstrained its policy debates, the more likely it was that their respective manifestoes would accurately reflect the aspirations of society’s key sectional interests."

    https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/106396/chris-trotter-takes-look-lack-policy-offer-two-main-political-parties-september-19

    • Sacha 12.1
      7 August 2020 at 9:46 am

      I would normally not touch Odgers with a bargepole but that post is a pretty straight take on his trajectory:

      Only Matthew Hooton could get away with the professional absurdity of going from:

      – Herald columnist using his influence in print and radio to assist in conducting a coup on Bridges.

      – Quit Twitter and Herald column to work in Wellington for nine weeks.

      – Lead a disaster of a transition with Muller who then collapses under the strain of it all.

      – Stays on with Collins it appeared prima facie quite happily else he would have exited with Muller.

      – Quit for the old chestnut of “travel demands and family reasons”.

      AND

      – Then basically pretends it all has not happened and reverts to writing about the very election campaign that last week he was in the middle of working on for Collins and National!

      • woodart 12.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 9:54 am

        the fact that hooten was able to slide straight back into being a mouthpiece at the herald says alot about heralds ethics and journo standards. would like to know how many suckers actually pay to get past heralds paywall. would think its very few.

      • observer 12.1.2
        7 August 2020 at 9:57 am

        It's another reminder that there is little correlation between somebody's high media profile (and self-importance) as a commentator, and their abilities as a staffer/adviser.

        I'm sure I'm not the only one who would struggle to name members of the PM's team. Andrew Campbell I think, and a bunch of others like the chief of staff who 99% of voters wouldn't pick in a line-up.

        As opposed to Hooton, Janet Wilson and the A Team.

      • weka 12.1.3
        7 August 2020 at 10:16 am

        sounds like classic Hooton. Still think the left still underestimates him.

        • Muttonbird 12.1.3.1
          7 August 2020 at 10:27 am

          I think the left over-estimates Hooton, if anything.

          • Sacha 12.1.3.1.1
            7 August 2020 at 10:30 am

            heck, Hooton overestimates Hooton.

          • weka 12.1.3.1.2
            7 August 2020 at 10:47 am

            and yet here he is, landing on his feet.

            Lol, just seen his NZH piece is taking a whack at Collins.

            • weka 12.1.3.1.2.1
              7 August 2020 at 10:47 am

              the headline at least, haven't read it.

            • McFlock 12.1.3.1.2.2
              7 August 2020 at 3:52 pm

              The comfy cushion of establishment favouritism. Same one that protected Garrick Tremain for decades.

              But now we have some real-world evidence of Hooten's abilities. Even if he has any actual skill at lining his pockets, he couldn't do a damned thig for the nats.

              • weka …
                7 August 2020 at 3:59 pm

                I don't understand why people have been thinking this is about trying to get National to win the election though. Hooton fucked up. Or maybe shit went down we don't know about. Or maybe someone or some people have the long game in mind.

                • McFlock …
                  7 August 2020 at 4:07 pm

                  And maybe trying to increase the popularity of a national party under Muller or Collins was always a "stop the sinking" rather than "pump the water out" situation.

                  But the short tenure suggests that he didn't appreciate some aspect of the job. Maybe it really was the commute. But if National continue at this level in the polls, one might well query what impact Hooten managed to have.

                  • weka …
                    7 August 2020 at 4:13 pm

                    Would totally love the inside story. Maybe someone will write a book, lol.

                    Is it out of character for Hooton to have fucked up this much?

                    "But the short tenure suggests that he didn't appreciate some aspect of the job."

                    Could also be internal politics. Imagine working for the National Party, holy fuck.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 August 2020 at 4:41 pm

                      re hooten's track record:

                      dunno. Part of privilege is that your failures are never recognised, while your successes are always assumed.

                      re: internal politics:

                      Yeah, but you'd expect a DP alumni to be able to weather it for more than a couple of months. He wasn't born evil yesterday, lol

                    • weka …
                      7 August 2020 at 6:55 pm

                      Hooton resurrecting his career.

                      Political commentator turned National consultant turned political commentator Matthew Hooton has revealed he only spent 15 minutes face to face with Todd Muller, during the former leader’s 53 days in the job. Hooton was hired during the coup by Muller against Simon Bridges.

                      In an appearance on Magic Talk this afternoon, Hooton said he mainly dealt with political staffers during his time in Wellington. He said Muller preferred to work alongside his deputy Nikki Kaye, and number three Amy Adams. Together, they referred to themselves as “the triangle,” Hooton said.

                      Hooton, who recently quit his role within the National Party to return to punditry, told the programme he “jumped ship” and definitely wasn’t pushed.

                      https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/07-08-2020/election-live-august-7-new-face-mask-advice-out-of-the-blue-brownlee/

                    • McFlock …
                      7 August 2020 at 7:41 pm

                      heh – failure is an orphan, and all that.

                    • Sacha …
                      7 August 2020 at 8:03 pm

                      Is it out of character for Hooton to have fucked up this much?

                      Hey if his real client turns out to be Luxon, he's earning every cent so far.

                    • weka …
                      7 August 2020 at 8:35 pm

                      Probably my favourite theory tbh.

                    • Sacha …
                      7 August 2020 at 8:37 pm

                      Nothing would surprise me anymore. Utter clownshow.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 August 2020 at 9:44 pm

                      Fair call on the Luxon plan, but wouldn't they want their saboteur throwing the game closer to the election? Doing the job "just good enough" to be in a position to really bugger things up ten days or so out from polling day?

                    • weka …
                      8 August 2020 at 7:40 am

                      might be harder to achieve without being spotted though. Also, this way Bridges, Muller, and probably Collins are all taken out. Nifty.

      • McFlock 12.1.4
        7 August 2020 at 3:49 pm

        Straightest item in a tory's toolbox is the shiv.

    • Just Is 13.1
      7 August 2020 at 1:00 pm

      Yes, We're very lucky hes the deputy of leader, shows the depth and Intelligence currently available in the Nat party

  14. Andre 14
    7 August 2020 at 10:08 am

    The debates are gonna be … illuminating.

    • Chris T 15.1
      7 August 2020 at 11:05 am

      Good luck with that….

      • Drowsy M. Kram 15.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 11:11 am

        I agree CT, best of luck with that.

        President Trump, in comments Thursday, said, “That’s a very terrible thing that just happened,” adding that “the N.R.A. should move to Texas and lead a very good and beautiful life.”

        • Chris T 15.1.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 11:20 am

          I actually seriously wish them well, as I think the NRA has turned into an evil institution, but I really can't see them losing any battles anytime soon.

          Too entrenched into a lot of Americans way of thinking.

        • Anne 15.1.1.2
          7 August 2020 at 3:05 pm

          “the N.R.A. should move to Texas and lead a very good and beautiful life.”

          Strewth! He really is barking mad. What's the matter with the Yanks? They could have removed him on so many grounds including insanity.

    • Macro 15.2
      7 August 2020 at 9:17 pm

      A summary of the case against the NRA here:

      Now that evidence has come out that NRA leadership bilked its membership for tens of millions, they may start to regret the fact that their membership is heavily armed.

      Just saying.

  16. Byd0nz 16
    7 August 2020 at 11:07 am

    Oh Dear, no policies they cry, well wail on.

    There will be lots and lots of policy for the right to moan about for the next nine years or more, because after Labour has won this coming election and has a free hand to rebuild this lovely land that has been crying for years for some love and attention. National only loves the land to be sold to some rich exploiters from yankeeland. So suck it up you right wing commentators haha your truly screwed. Get a proper job or piss off to a country who may agree with you.

    • Chris T 16.1
      7 August 2020 at 11:17 am

      Are you saying you don't think knowing policy before voting is important?

      • Byd0nz 16.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 11:52 am

        There has been policy coming out,there has been clues as to what policy to expect and it is all about rebuilding infrastructure, reinvesting in apprenticeships etc etc, are you just looking for promises.

        • Chris T 16.1.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 12:00 pm

          I think Labour will be avoiding any promises this time, given the last terms ones.

          • lprent 16.1.1.1.1
            7 August 2020 at 3:18 pm

            Yeah the media fools and the National party idiots have this problem with lead times and project management.

            If you give them a 10 year objective then they will all divide it by 10 and say that you didn’t achieve a first year target. While this is laudable in that they have mastered division on a calculator. However it does point to some issues with their mathematical and business education past primary school.

            Just as a quick check – what is your understanding about how you measure progress on decade length infrastructural projects. Just so we know how you’d measure Nationals progress on their roads. Not to mention Bridge’s northland bridges.

            • mac1 16.1.1.1.1.1
              7 August 2020 at 3:26 pm

              It's like planting a tree for fruit. Nothing at all at first, but buying the land, fertilising it, weeding it, digging the holes, then staking, training, pruning, spraying, and then a few fruit and then finally full production in a few year's time.

              Then you have to find and train the pickers, house them and pay them a decent wage, treat them properly.

              Then there's the transport of the crop, its sale and storage, its marketing and its acceptance by the buying public.

              That's a farmer's metaphor so the Nats can understand it.

        • Sabine 16.1.1.2
          7 August 2020 at 12:13 pm

          asking for the plan of the next three years is not 'looking for promises', it is asking the candidate what they plan to do next.

          Infrastructre is nice, but when 90% of the last unemployment numbers are women it is meaningless as Infrastructure is a male dominated industry.

          So what are the plans for the unemployed women?

          Re-investing in apprenticeships is great. Who is going to train these youngsters?, Are they receiving a wage from the company they work for while being apprenticed , or will they have to get a studentloan of sorts in order to pay their living costs while being trained and work for free?

          Oh i am asking for details. Gosh Darn it. Don't i know that i should just shut up and vote.

          • Byd0nz 16.1.1.2.1
            7 August 2020 at 12:36 pm

            You underestimate women if you think there is no place for women in infrastructure in a modern world where woman can do anything.

            • Sabine 16.1.1.2.1.1
              7 August 2020 at 3:10 pm

              The infrastructure programmes are good for those that currently working in the field as it will keep them employed and provide employment for those that are not coming out of the training/study pipeline be they men or women.

              But it will do nothing for unemployed people of a certain age where physical work is an issue, nor will it work for all the women who have lost their jobs recently.

              So what i am talking about is this current need that can not wait for some women who lost her job to get trained to be available as a hammer hand on a building site.

              Unemployment

              The seasonally adjusted unemployment rate fell to 4.0 percent in the June 2020 quarter, down from 4.2 percent last quarter.

              • For men, the unemployment rate fell to 3.6 percent, down from 4.0 percent last quarter.
              • For women, the unemployment rate rose to 4.4 percent, up from 4.3 percent.

              The seasonally adjusted number of unemployed people fell to 111,000 (down 6,000).

              • 7,000 fewer men were unemployed. (i would assume these guys are getting jobs in building, infrastructure, roadworks etc)
              • 1,000 more women were unemployed.

              The fall in the number of unemployed people coincided with a rise of 37,000 people not in the labour force.

              Underutilisation

              The seasonally adjusted underutilisation rate rose to 12.0 percent this quarter, up from 10.4 percent last quarter. This was the largest quarterly rise recorded since the series began in 2004.

              • For men, the underutilisation rate rose to 9.4 percent, up from 8.3 percent.
              • For women, the underutilisation rate rose to 14.9 percent, up from 12.7 percent.

              (italics mine)

              https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/labour-market-statistics-june-2020-quarter

              and i really would like to know what the government has planned for these women other then the kinder gentler same as bullshit at Winz and a life of no income and dependence on welfare or the generosity of a partner.

  17. RedBaronCV 17
    7 August 2020 at 11:10 am

    Why on earth should taking a test be optional and so infrequent (3 weeks) in the border staff situation? I would also support higher pay and reductions in total work hours to lessen the stress on staff as well. There should also be a steady withdrawal of outsourced contracts – we need the best job not the cheapest. The costs of it getting out are far beyond any of this expenditure

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300075002/leaked-covid19-report-warns-border-isolation-and-quarantine-staff-carry-the-highest-risk-of-causing-an-outbreak

  18. greywarshark 18
    7 August 2020 at 11:26 am

    Outright racism, unafraid of authority descending on landlord for blatant vilification. This sort of thing has to be stopped.

    What could be done is that their is an agency that tenants can opt to be connected to that keeps a record of their tenancies and sets them on a coloured star list based on results of approvals from landlords. Then a landlord can see from their rating level, and have no excuse for refusing people on race or looks or whatever.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/07/m-ori-woman-says-christchurch-landlord-told-her-he-didn-t-want-her-sort-in-his-house.html

    • Sacha 18.1
      7 August 2020 at 11:40 am

      Nah, how about an agency that rates landlords? Or better yet, regulates them.

      • Sabine 18.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 12:15 pm

        +1

        • Patricia Bremner 18.1.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 8:43 pm

          Yes Sacha. A Landlord rating system with Govt inspectors

          There are some excellent Landlords who would benefit from such a list. Those who were on the tail would be inspected more often. Good idea.

      • greywarshark 18.1.2
        7 August 2020 at 1:08 pm

        sacha – Both i think would be excellent. People would be encouraged to be good tenants and say look at my record now let me have this rental. Landlords won't be able to tapdance a flamenco as many do now, there would be no fleet of foot for those rentiers any more.

        • Sabine 18.1.2.1
          7 August 2020 at 2:51 pm

          But tenants already have to provide references. Up to three sometimes four.

          A tenant however can not ask for several reference to prove that they landlord/rental manager are decent.

          • greywarshark 18.1.2.1.1
            7 August 2020 at 3:39 pm

            Well Sacha says an agency to rate landlords. That would be good. You are getting into an angry negative mode Sabine. As there isn't much good news around you could find yourself in a spiral.

            • Sabine 18.1.2.1.1.1
              7 August 2020 at 3:56 pm

              neither angry nor negative, but i accept that i am not forcibly a people pleaser, nor do i want to be.

              But you must not have seen my +1 supporting the idea of the landlord rating agency.

      • Draco T Bastard 18.1.3
        7 August 2020 at 3:37 pm

        How about just getting rid of private landlords?

        Massive government housing that ensures everyone has a place to live.

        • greywarshark 18.1.3.1
          7 August 2020 at 3:47 pm

          edit
          Yes, fairly simple stuff but adequate, state housing, staaattte housssiing dah de dah, tweedle de dee, what about a house for me, and you, and them, or a flat not too far off the ground. There must be a song about that. I see that the removal of some controls somewhere means that places more than 6 stories can be built. Don't let us see tower blocks please you Council people and politicians. Next thing we are into Grenfell as in London. We have had some officials in NZ look and find the same cladding. Take our eyes off the developers and it will be replaced with something as bad. 6 stories limit eh, with a lift after 3 stories high.

          Here is lovely Graham Nash talking about homes and the Crosby – CSNY song 'Our House' –

          I’ve just remembered. Talking to someone with a Swiss wife. Some of the apartments over there are interesting – I think might go up to 6 floors with stairs all the way. And the stairway is not blocked off from the flats, one on each floor. As you walk up at the end of their living space you say hello or give a wave and up to the next floor the same. The only one that is entirely private is at the top. They seem to get on okay with that. It’s a new idea to me.

  19. Observer Tokoroa 19
    7 August 2020 at 11:34 am

    National is one hell of a Problem

    When you look back on what the National party has achieved you arrive in nothing but a vacuum.

    For it is but a bunker for the Wealthy. A group which does nothing for New Zealand.

    It builds its massive money bags, by paying working citizens very low wages. Year after year, after year.

    It has continued its behaviour since the 1930's. It has now happily arrived determinedly, at a situation where it builds no Houses for its people.

    They have deliberately denied housing. Numerous get it tough. Families sleep in cars and vans. Landlords and Lawyers exert their vicious greed on thousands of NZeders.

    Some Good people in cities give and share food – and in rural areas too. Bless them.

    The wealthy as usual are in their counting rooms counting out their money,

    As we move towards the Year 2020, please remember the foreign banks; the callous Wealthy and the cruel Landlords.

    The retched National Party exists only for itself . They are not Kiwis.

    • Sabine 19.1
      7 August 2020 at 11:52 am

      They are Kiwis. Greedy kiwis. But Kiwis they are and they get voted in by Kiwis every now and then. Generally when Labour looses the plot and has nothing to offer.

      I don't disagree with you on your description of the No Mates Party. But they are Kiwis. They are Kiwi as.

      • roblogic 19.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 1:01 pm

        They may be New Zealanders by accident of birth but they have no loyalty to the idea of Aotearoa as a decent, fair, democratic nation. The Nats loyalty is to themselves first, and if that means selling out NZ (public assets, taonga, and people) to the whims of global capitalism, then so be it.

        Of course they claim a homey "Kiwi" persona but it's fake. The 0.01% cares nothing for borders or the lives of ordinary people. They are the TransNational party

    • Chris T 19.2
      7 August 2020 at 12:20 pm

      I thought the emergency housing list has tripled under Labour.

      The emergency food grants grown massively.

      Forgive me if I am wrong.

      • Just Is 19.2.1
        7 August 2020 at 1:10 pm

        But wasn't that people transitioning from sleeping on the streets and in cars, you know, NZ had the highest rate of homelessness per capita in the OECD when the Coalition took office, just another hangover from Key and English.

      • Cinny 19.2.2
        7 August 2020 at 1:11 pm

        Not sure on the exact figures, but that's what happens in a pandemic, people lose their incomes and need help.

        It's shocking in the USA, there will be massive homeless and hungry people there soon, maybe in the tens of millions. It's awful for them.

      • Gabby 19.2.3
        7 August 2020 at 2:33 pm

        I thought people got the funny idea they didn't just have to find a garage or a doorway. Forgive me if I'm mistaken.

  20. PaddyOT 20
    7 August 2020 at 12:39 pm

    Earlier this morning Judith Collins was in the Waikato. Stuff reporter Libby Wilson was there.

    Speaking to a farming crowd in the Waikato on Friday, Collins repeatedly said National would scrap the RMA.

    It would go “out the back in the old oil drum and it’s going to be burnt”, she said.

    Farmers must be sick of being told what to do on their own land, she said, and no-one told her dad he couldn’t chop down a pine tree.

    She spoke to a crowd of about 200 in a Waikato agricultural contractor’s shed.

    National’s support for farmers was the main thrust of her speech, but she also announced National’s intention to put $20m into more testing for gynaecological cancers, so they can be picked up early.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300076186/live-dr-ashley-bloomfield-answers-questions-on-covid19?cid=app-android

    • Sacha 20.1
      7 August 2020 at 12:43 pm

      Farmers must be sick of being told what to do on their own land, she said

      Her 'farmers' are most welcome to keep all their pollution on their own land as well. Righto.

      • PaddyOT 20.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 1:07 pm

        It's the 'on the fly' made up last night policy dropped at the end.
        An important announcement to make in a farm shed.

        • greywarshark 20.1.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 2:49 pm

          I suppose one of Collins family or friends had gynaelogical? cancer and so that gets priority in the to-do list for Gnats.

          • Sacha 20.1.1.1.1
            7 August 2020 at 2:53 pm

            Despite us now having a proper evidence-based national cancer agency to decide where funds are best spent.

  21. Cinny 21
    7 August 2020 at 1:07 pm

    Being prepared is not a conspiracy theory, after all we are happy as to put together a kit for a natural disaster. 🌋 The kids are happy as to wear a mask, 😷 they think it's cool. It's the grown up's with the issues. Weird huh?

    enlightened Mask making 101 – Because getting sewing supplies while in lockdown is a pain in the arse. And you won't want to wear a mask if it's uncomfortable.

    ✂️ Use a breathable natural fabric if possible, but not wool it's too itchy, check out your linen cupboard, or get some old cotton shirts from the recycle centre. Soft cotton/hemp blends are fantastic. The tighter the weave of the fabric the better.

    🕯️ Not sure of the fibre content, do a flame test, if it melts don't use it, you're looking for a dusty ash.

    👚 Instead of elastic to use over the ears, use stretch fabric, it's softer and more comfortable. Cut strips off the bottom of an old t-shirt and stretch it as far as it can go. Make your ear loops adjustable for extra comfort, just slide the loose ends through one well fitting bead. Hair ties for over ear loops can often be too small or tight and uncomfortable.

    😷 Masks with pockets for filters (a filter could be a folded up tissue) are more effective. Single layer masks are less effective.

    📎 A fitted mask is best, you don't want a gap over the bridge of your nose. Make a casing for the bridge of the nose and insert a piece of wire, like an unfolded paper clip. Use some pliers to curl over the ends of the wire, so you don't get poked in the nose.

    🧵 Top stitching might look nice, but, the more sewing holes in the mask the less effective it will be. Try not to top stitch your mask.

    Good pattern

    Instructions

    Creativity

    Basic 5 min how to video.

    • greywarshark 21.1
      7 August 2020 at 1:11 pm

      Cinny that is so good of you. Helpful and worthwhile to do as I bought a pack from the pharmacy and for a 5 pack it was $13. For a family the cost mounts up. I am planning to wear and air in sun after so that I can reuse, for a time anyway. Not sure how many wears would be too much.

      • Cinny 21.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 1:24 pm

        Sweet as, had a tinker with making face masks during lockdown and am a sewer so thought I'd share my findings.

        There are others on the TS who have sewn masks, would love to hear their tips as well.

        Greywarshark, I’d wash after every use. Airing in the sun is great and so is hanging them on the line when there is a frost.

        Just Is, imagine if NZ grew fibre and manufactured textiles for masks, now that would be awesome. Most textiles come from offshore.

        • greywarshark 21.1.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 2:34 pm

          Just made me think of hemp – any time something is mentioned, someone says 'Hemp's good for that'. Though I think it might be a bit scratchy. But if it had enough 'TLC' it could be bearable and bring a smile.

        • Rosemary McDonald 21.1.1.2
          7 August 2020 at 3:07 pm

          Back then we replaced the rubber bands with elastic or hair ties and used 3 ply paper towels with an extra layer of dried (fragrance free) baby wipes.

          Close fitting…to the point that after dong the during lockdown grocery shop at paknspend just about needed O2. As it is with the highly expensive N95 masks.

          We removed the elastic for reuse….Spotlight having run out of the stuff very early on.

          Going to try the sock mask as well…someone here posted a video a coupe of weeks ago.

    • Just Is 21.2
      7 August 2020 at 1:14 pm

      Sounds like a wonderful Business Opportunity for enterprising individuals with some time on their hands, we could export them to the rest of the world.

      • Sabine 21.2.1
        7 August 2020 at 2:47 pm

        Already has been a good business opportunity, you can by them online from Made Gallery. Raglan NZ https://www.facebook.com/madegalleryraglan/, and various other places and they have been offered since lockdown Level 3. I got a whole bunch for the hairdressers next to me for opening day on Lockdown L2. We looked outstanding in our colorful masks. 🙂

        Gloves, Masks and sanitizer by now should be a stable in every household.
        added link and disclaimer these are friends who run this little place.

    • Fireblade 21.3
      7 August 2020 at 2:26 pm

      Just use your favourite pair of undies.

  22. Janet 22
    7 August 2020 at 2:41 pm

    Now I really do think people returning home to NZ should have had a negative result test just prior to flying to NZ . "Two people who recently returned from overseas are in managed isolation at their own house in a suburb in South Auckland." ( NZ Herald ) No wonder they are telling us to worry about a second wave hitting our shores.

    • Peter 22.1
      7 August 2020 at 2:56 pm

      "She (A spokeswoman for Managed Isolation and Quarantine) acknowledged that such exemptions were given only under strict conditions or compassionate reasons – in this case, a medical reason.

      It was allowed when those needing to stay in 14-day managed isolation could not have their health needs met in a hotel."

      Can you tell us what the medical situation is? Can you tell us how the way they are being monitored is less strict that in the hotels?

      • weka 22.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 4:01 pm

        who are you quoting there? A link please.

        People are entitled to medical privacy.

        What makes you think the monitoring is less?

    • Sacha 22.2
      7 August 2020 at 3:55 pm

      I really do think people returning home to NZ should have had a negative result test just prior to flying

      False negative rate is way too high at that stage, which is why they wait until day 3.

      • Janet 22.2.1
        7 August 2020 at 4:15 pm

        They should still go into quarantine for 2 weeks … but at least it is one way to lower the risk to the people who have to process them once they are in NZ

        • Sacha 22.2.1.1
          7 August 2020 at 4:17 pm

          It gives only false reassurance of lowered risk, so is actually more dangerous than not doing it. Need to trust the public health officials who make these decisions. Deadly serious business.

          • observer 22.2.1.1.1
            7 August 2020 at 5:34 pm

            Yes. The woman who escaped through a fence in Auckland, and the man who went to get beer in Hamilton, and the family that wanted to go to the funeral, had all returned a negative test (in NZ isolation).

            An earlier negative test, from another country's health system, would only encourage more to break the rules ("it was negative, so what's the big deal?").

  23. Dennis Frank 23
    7 August 2020 at 2:54 pm

    Trotter poses rhetorical question: http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2020/08/does-left-know-how-to-fix-capitalism.html

    Few would dispute that the Left, today, are few in number. Is their failure to make the public aware of and act upon the manifest failures of the present system attributable to their lack of active energy and intelligence? Or, is it simply because the Left’s ideas have become, almost entirely, those of the historically compromised middle-class?

    Yeah, the left do seem to be a constantly shrinking microcosm of the people. Trotter spends a lot of time circumnavigating the problem and very little in an attempt to get to the crux.

    Unfortunately, the critics of neoliberalism have achieved nothing like the cut-through achieved by the critics of Keynesianism in the 70s and 80s. The careful creation of an intellectual climate for change; the constant publication of detailed proposals for reform; the extraordinary preparation and seeding of the political ground that prefaced the policy revolutions unleashed by Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and Roger Douglas; none of these have been replicated by the Left.

    Doing what the situation requires takes intellectual endeavour. Leftists prefer to live on trickle-down from capitalists than co-create an alternative system. Trotter fails to explain that bit. He also fails to attempt the task himself.

    Ninety years ago, the father of public relations, and author of the ground-breaking book Propaganda, Edward Bernays, wrote: “Only through the active energy of the intelligent few can the public at large become aware of and act upon new ideas.”

    Few are capable of conceiving and designing innovative social projects, but that's the easier bit. Recruiting others in collaborative teams to make them work is harder.

    For the left as a political project, those who seek a better system are ever opposed by those who prefer to use the current system. Teamwork is stymied by this internal schism. Trotter, of course, fails to identify this as crux of the problem…

    • Sacha 23.1
      7 August 2020 at 3:13 pm

      Few would dispute that the Left, today, are few in number

      [Citation needed]

      • Sabine 23.1.1
        7 August 2020 at 3:51 pm

        "Nothing Too Drastic: Few would dispute that the Left, today, are few in number. Is their failure to make the public aware of and act upon the manifest failures of the present system attributable to their lack of active energy and intelligence? Or, is it simply because the Left’s ideas have become, almost entirely, those of the historically compromised middle-class?

        right under the picture on the post linked in Dennis comment.

      • Dennis Frank 23.1.2
        7 August 2020 at 3:52 pm

        I presume he wrote that in his belief that he doesn't need to cite political science research? Just guessing. I agree it is a worthy topic for political scientists to investigate. They would probably raise the funding question in response…

  24. Sabine 24
    7 August 2020 at 3:14 pm

    a bit more on the NRA and abuse and theft of Membership fees. It is a very entertaining twitter feed.

    https://twitter.com/igorvolsky/status/1291538070366572549

  25. weka 25
    7 August 2020 at 3:26 pm

    Cancel culture.

    "please stop punishing me for my ignorance, please stop telling me to commit suicide"

    (read the whole thread for context)

  26. newsense 26
    7 August 2020 at 3:54 pm

    The strip club industry have retained a QC to fight accusations they were associated with the National Party.

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