Open mike 07/10/2022

105 comments on “Open mike 07/10/2022 ”

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1. Sanctuary 1

   7 October 2022 at 8:01 am

   No one is responsible for ensuring New Zealand has an adequate electricity supply.

   The country is in an electricity emergency on a cold morning after the wettest and warmest winter since forever.

   People are being asked not to turn on their heaters or use their washing machines.

   The shareholders of the power generation companies however get to light their cigars with $100 notes.

   Time yet again to say "thanks, Max Bradford" and ask WTF is anyone doing about it?
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1

     7 October 2022 at 8:13 am

     Well, some are catching the next gravy train out….."charitably"

     Departing Queenstown Lakes Mayor Jim Boult has put his hand up for another chair around another table.

     Since its inception in 2000, the trust has grown its asset base from $155 million, bestowed by the Otago Central Electric Power Trust, to assets totalling $467 million.

     https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/boult-hangs-mayor-hat-try-luck-trust

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/otago-move-by-trustpower/34JQIUXPNW4YUXBO6T456WDSNM/

     The Otago Central Electric Power Trust was OUR Local Power Company. Anyone with a brain could see that Trustpower….(who bought it) was going to want their money back…with Interest ! And of course our power bills….went ballistic.

     No surprise that Jim Boult…a Natfan from way back, would be looking at his next option.

     And yea ol' Max Bradford….still thinks he did the Right Thing. Well he kinda did. For his peer group. Aye Mr Boult…..
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.1

       7 October 2022 at 8:25 am

       Oh yea…..I'd forgotten slimy Grady Cameron ! Aurora Energy/Delta

       Aurora Energy Ltd acting chief executive Grady Cameron says Central Otago only has itself to blame for the fact it has residents struggling to pay power bills.

       https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/central-otago/central-otago-has-itself-blame-power-costs

       They probed Aurora Energy representatives over the "elephant the room" – the six-figure exit package paid to Grady Cameron, chief executive of the council-owned company.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/97258626/six-figure-exit-package-for-outgoing-lines-company-boss-grady-cameron-unfortunate

       After running it into the ground slimebag gets close to a $ 1Million payout ! And WE pay more to fix the power poles…and carnage that resulted.

       Sickening…

       Max Bradford…..was a mistake. Time for a Change.
       • tc 1.1.1.1

         7 October 2022 at 9:11 am

         That's fairly typical of systemic under investment in diversity, under grounding, reslience, inspections etc as those trust boards across NZ do like to tub thump that yearly rebate to bill holders, regardless of it's cost.

         Nationalise it ! Mick Lynch said it the other week in a UK comedy show that it's just taking back what's yours in the first place. Enough is enough, with the largesse removed and stripping out the quadruplication of audit, management, systems it'll probably fund itself.

         We so need a socially focused party on the scene to shake this cosy centrist mob up.
         • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.1.1.1

           7 October 2022 at 9:24 am

           Nationalise it !

           Absolutely. Bradfords "reforms" were just a fail. Apart from, as stated, for the "few" at the top….

           For them..it was an unmitigated success !
           • Shanreagh 1.1.1.1.1.1

             7 October 2022 at 4:58 pm

             I am amazed that nothing is being done about this by our Govt. High energy costs with the low incomes of many are source of misery. I think as well as Housing we should be starting on things like building up rail again and renationalising energy. Perhaps we could follow the 3 waters model for electricity?

             Does the Govt still own a share in electricity. Some of these Crown Enterprises were floated with the Crown holding some important shares that were to provide a brake but which will undoubtedly have been sold.
             • PsyclingLeft.Always …

               7 October 2022 at 8:15 pm

               In April 2013, the Labour Party and the Green Party said if they were to win the 2014 general election, they would introduce a single buyer of electricity akin to Pharmac (the single buyer of pharmaceutical drugs in New Zealand), in order to cut retail costs.The Government responded by calling it "economic vandalism", comparing it to the Soviet Union but Greens co-leader Russel Norman said it would boost the economy and create jobs. By the following day, shares in privately owned power company Contact Energy had fallen by more than 10 percent

               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_New_Zealand

               Freaking Nats …..an earlier version of sir Key's "devil beast" slur. Scumbags.

               But yeah, Shanreagh. We should just GO FOR IT. For the betterment of the majority of NZers.
       • Hunter Thompson II 1.1.1.2

         8 October 2022 at 9:33 am

         Come on, we need to be objective about this.

         If power company execs can't get massive salaries they won't be able to afford the costs of sending the kids to exclusive private schools, travelling to Europe every year for holidays and owning a condo in Queenstown (or a big chunk of the South Island high country).

         Ordinary Kiwis would have nothing to aspire to if that ceased.
         • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.1.2.1

           8 October 2022 at 10:23 am

           lol. I get it. Its all a bit Joe Hill…and "Pie in the sky".

           ( I was gonna put links , but you already know ; )
   • Nic the NZer 1.2

     7 October 2022 at 8:15 am

     Does "no one" include transpower? They seem to have highlighted the risk (prior to the line fault) and be coordinating the response (including asking people to voluntarily not use unnecessary power).
     • Sanctuary 1.2.1

       7 October 2022 at 8:25 am

       Transpower might MANAGE the energy supply but…

       "No one is responsible for ensuring New Zealand has an adequate electricity supply."
       • Nic the NZer 1.2.1.1

         7 October 2022 at 8:33 am

         Not sure I understand the distinction.

         When Transpower has managed the outage and fully restored the HVDC line, your saying they can't guarantee it wont happen again in fact no organisation will guarantee it? I agree of course.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2.2

       7 October 2022 at 8:53 am

       "We obviously have to do do a full investigation."

       Transpower has said it had made changes since it was held responsible by the electricity watchdog for widespread outages on one of the coldest nights of last year.

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/476224/wintry-weather-transpower-issues-warning-notice-calling-for-more-electricity-generation

       A "full Investigation"…I bet. Will there be any ….accountability?

       As in a "management" review ?

       The Electricity Authority has confirmed Transpower is responsible for unnecessary power cuts to 34,000 consumers on one of the coldest nights of the year.

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/465964/transpower-responsible-for-unnecessary-august-power-cuts-electricty-authority
       • Nic the NZer 1.2.2.1

         7 October 2022 at 9:40 am

         I understand that as the Electricity Authority saying, yes, Transpower is a member of Sanctuaries, "no one". Maybe that's why there is active management happening this time and so far a major lines fault has caused no brown-outs AFAIK.
   • Poission 1.3

     7 October 2022 at 10:01 am

     There was an insufficient generation warning in effect for today prior,due to forecast low wind generation in the NI,Thermal generation limited,and the high risk if a fault occurred.

     A fault did occur on the South North HVDC transfer at haywards, meaning sufficient generation was unavailable,hence Grid emergency for NI declared.Reduction in load by heating control ,large users going to standby,increased co generation and use of liquid thermals (which had been brought to standby positions needing heat up times) saw adequate availability,and forced load reduction alleviated.

     There was already reduced load from a calendar effect,of School Holidays,and increased seasonal lighting,and in industrial large users operating secondary systems.
2. Adrian Thornton 2

   7 October 2022 at 8:44 am

   The long term blowback resulting from the Wests and its compliant (to put nicely) media apparent short term memory lapse around the virulent European far Right and more specifically the various well known and documented self-proclaimed Ukrainian para military far Right is going to be brutal and ugly….

   "Three years ago, describing an Australian white supremacist charged with massacring 49 people in New Zealand, the New York Times (3/15/19) wrote: “On his flak jacket was a symbol commonly used by the Azov Battalion, a Ukrainian neo-Nazi paramilitary organization.”

   "Commanders of Ukraine’s celebrated Azov Battalion have held an emotional reunion with their families in Turkey, Ukrainian officials said, honoring the fighters released from Russian confinement last month as part of the largest prisoner swap since the start of the war.

   “Celebrated” is an odd word to describe a group whose founder urged Ukraine to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade…against Semite-led Untermenschen (subhumans)”

   https://fair.org/home/action-alert-nyt-celebrates-neo-nazi-azov-unit/

   
   • Sanctuary 2.1

     7 October 2022 at 9:04 am

     You Ruski lovers are real sore losers.
     • adam 2.1.1

       7 October 2022 at 9:21 am

       If you don't like the far right hate groups you're a Ruski lover…Wow I didn't know.

       Thanks for the clarification Sanctury.
       • Sanctuary 2.1.1.1

         7 October 2022 at 9:30 am

         The tedious shroud waving over the Azov battalion by pro-Russian propaganda channels is exactly that, tedious. The ridiculous myth that somehow the Ukraine is a "Nazi" state is a straight out Kremlin lie.

         The Azov battalion was purged of it's Nazi and extreme elements in the extensive reforms undertaken by the Ukrainian army post their defeat in the 2014 war with Russia – the results of those reforms are obvious today, and the motivated infantry of the Ukraine (armed by the arsenals of democracy) are putting up a tremendous fight that has so far utterly humiliated Russia and exposed it for the vain-glorious Fascist uber-kleptocracy it really is.

         The idea this nonsense is still be peddled as a thing when we now have extensive evidence of the actual brutality of the Russian occupation forces tells me the person posting is little more than a Kremlin shill attempting to manipulate the reality of this war in order to introduce doubt and undermine the determination of the west to support the Ukraine in it’s just war and is therefore undeserving of a serious response.
         • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1.1.1

           7 October 2022 at 10:48 am

           "The Azov battalion was purged of it's Nazi and extreme elements in the extensive reforms undertaken by the Ukrainian army post their defeat in the 2014 war with Russia"

           I see, you seem to well informed…how about some serious (ie; not western MSM) links please.

           "armed by the arsenals of democracy"….. Afghanistan, the Libyans, Iraqis, the people of Yemen…etc etc etc…..seems like your "arsenals of democracy" don't work that well for the Brown and Coloured people around the world…but then Western Imperialism was never meant to work for them was it?…it's one of the craziest ironies of recent times how the Liberal class have become the the staunchest supports of the most racist ideology in the world today…Western (US) hegemonic imperialism.
           • Sanctuary 2.1.1.1.1.1

             7 October 2022 at 11:06 am

             "…"armed by the arsenals of democracy"….. Afghanistan, the Libyans, Iraqis, the people of Yemen…etc etc etc…..seems like your "arsenals of democracy" don't work that well for the Brown and Coloured people around the world…"

             WTF are you talking about? That is gibberish.
             • Adrian Thornton …

               7 October 2022 at 11:21 am

               OK I will spell in out nice and slow for you….every time your great white "arsenals of democracy" (ie; western arms) are employed around the world, the local populations who also happen to usually be Coloured, suffer…is that clear enough for you.
               • Sanctuary …

                 7 October 2022 at 11:24 am

                 Well they are not in the Ukraine, they are kicking your sides arse.
                 • Adrian Thornton …

                   7 October 2022 at 8:18 pm

                   "Well they are not in the Ukraine"…by this statement we can assume you are in at least tacit agreement that your self described "arsenals of democracy" and by extension their countries of origin have and are in the business of fucking up countries around the globe for various self serving reasons, yet you would have us believe that those very same ultra aggressive powers are now defending the Ukraine for altruistic reasons…

                   …it is beyond me that you can't see that for those powers ( that we have just agreed have a serious and long history of ultra aggressive international thuggery) the Ukraine and the Ukrainian people are the least important component in this conflict.

                   "The Azov battalion was purged of it's Nazi and extreme elements in the extensive reforms undertaken by the Ukrainian army post their defeat in the 2014 war with Russia"….

                   …and finally I see still no neutral links to verify your claims…wonder why that is???
           • Jenny are we there yet 2.1.1.1.1.2

             7 October 2022 at 9:27 pm

             Adrian Thornton

             7 October 2022 at 10:48 am

             ……how about some serious (ie; not western MSM) links please.

             "armed by the arsenals of democracy"….. Afghanistan, the Libyans, Iraqis, the people of Yemen…etc etc etc…..seems like your "arsenals of democracy" don't work that well for the Brown and Coloured people around the world…

             How about some what-aboutism, Eh Adrian.

             What's your message here Adrian?
             That Western powers conduct genocidal invasions and wars and takeovers, so Russia should?

             I noticed in your list of invasions and interventions, you left Syria off your list.

             Is that because Russia's intervention and mass bombardment of civilian centres in Syria gets your tick of approval?

             A reported 18,000 Syrians have been killed by Russian forces in Syria. Russia claims they killed 85,000 Syrians, all of them terrorists.

             Adrian, you could dispute whether 18,000 or 85,000 Syrians killed by Russian forces is the correct figure. I could dispute whether they were all terrorists.

             How about things that can't be denied or disputed?
             The images of Aleppo reduced to rubble by Russian bombing, the same images of Mariupol reduced to rubble by genocidal Russian bombing.

             You can't deny Adrian that you haven't seen the video of Russian rockets slamming into civilian apartment blocks in Ukraine. Everyone has seen them. Does this atrocity get your stamp of approval because Russia does it?

             ……Human rights groups accuse Russia of killing thousands of people in Syria, but the Kremlin claims it has killed even more.

             On the third anniversary of Russia’s military intervention in Syria, an independent monitoring group, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, said Russian air strikes and artillery shells have killed 18,000 people, including nearly 8,000 civilians, .

             The Syrian Network for Human Rights, another monitoring group, alleged 6,239 civilians have been killed, including 1,804 children at the hands of Russian forces, according to a 40-page report it issued on Monday.

             But the Kremlin says it killed significantly more in its quest to bolster the rule of Bashar al-Assad in Syria. The head of its parliamentary defence committee announced on Sunday that it had killed 85,000 people, calling them all “terrorists”. Russia also claims it has not killed a single civilian in Syria over the last three years…..

             https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/russia-killed-thousands-civilians-syria-civil-war-military-intervention-a8562901.html
   • Incognito 2.2

     7 October 2022 at 10:29 am

     I do worry about the way you seemingly promote the symbols used by the Azov Batallion and the convicted NZ mass murderer without even a hint of irony or self-awareness or what you’re doing. Is it meant to wake us up, shock us, or something else altogether? You certainly do have a unique way of trying to make your point, but I doubt that it is effective and could well be counter-productive, although that doesn’t seem to cross your mind at all.
     • Adrian Thornton 2.2.1

       7 October 2022 at 11:05 am

       "I do worry about the way you seemingly promote the symbols used by the Azov Batallion"…I worry about the most sophisticated and deadly arms being sent to known extremist Far Right militias/units in the Ukraine without the slightest oversight…

       

       This is the spiritual home of the symbol of the Azov unit…not sure about you, but I find that direct lineage to one of the most savage military units in recent European history very worrying indeed….the fighters the West seem fine with arming for some reason…when this all ends, and it will, these people will still have all those those weapons…are you ok with that?
       • SPC 2.2.1.1

         7 October 2022 at 11:12 am

         The origin of the symbol is the wolf trap. It's use within Germany was probably derived from Prussian influence in forming nationalism out of the HRE era.
         • Sanctuary 2.2.1.1.1

           7 October 2022 at 11:22 am

           Don't engage, Kremlin shills WANT you argue over the symbology, in order to manipulate perception and introduce doubt as the righteousness of the Ukrainian fight.

           Hat tip to whoever pointed me to Vlad Vexler, very interesting chap and he describes exactly what pro- Putler shills are doing:
           • Adrian Thornton 2.2.1.1.1.1

             7 October 2022 at 11:31 am

             Oh there is plenty that is true…just not much of it is coming from you today.
           • SPC 2.2.1.1.1.2

             7 October 2022 at 11:40 am

             One can see the distortion of truth in Putin cultivating support from night wolfs and portraying Ukrainian resistance as a fascist wolf trap.

             His problem is that he is no Zhukov, he is not even as good at cheating, chess or the psych out as Hans Niemann (who cheated his way up the rankings to play at tournaments and then demonstrated he was not just better than the worlds "best ever Carlsen" – he did so posing as disinterested during the game as if it was too easy). Carlsen now refused to play him again – Putin's don't make me a loser, or I'll use nukes.
             • Sanctuary …

               7 October 2022 at 12:14 pm

               So there is this guy in red square and suddenly he starts shouting "The president is a Nazi and an idiot! The president is a Nazi and an idiot!"

               He is quickly surrounded by police who start beating him, but he cries out "No! No! I meant Zelensky! I meant Zelensky!"

               To which the cops replied, "We are not fools, everyone knows who the Nazi idiot is."
           • Bruce 2.2.1.1.1.3

             7 October 2022 at 12:47 pm

             yes my thanks too I saw his interview with Jake Broe and the manipulation is just as he described. Sheds light on alot of whats happening around the world.

             https://youtu.be/2697pPORYuw
         • Adrian Thornton 2.2.1.1.2

           7 October 2022 at 11:27 am

           Nice try….I think you well know that the symbol is 100% understood to be the Divisional insignia of the notorious 2nd Waffen SS Div….now also widely understood to represent the insignia used by the Ukrainian Azov unit….end of story.
           • SPC 2.2.1.1.2.1

             7 October 2022 at 11:41 am

             History, is what it is, it shows up the propagandist.
           • Stuart Munro 2.2.1.1.2.2

             7 October 2022 at 4:56 pm

             There are a lot of folk co-opting former Nazi symbols – I don't think the Waffen SS would have been impressed by many of them.

             But frankly, get off the grass. Russia has proven to be bellicose, inconsiderate of civilians and prisoners well beyond Geneva convention definitions, perfectly chill about using chemical or nuclear weapons, cheerful fakers of ballots, and so frightfully incompetent they're probably automatically eligible for National Party membership.

             You've got to serve somebody – better to choose self-defense against malign aggression than the jack-booted minions of the oppressor.
             • Adrian Thornton …

               7 October 2022 at 8:56 pm

               " I don't think the Waffen SS would have been impressed by many of them"…you obviouly don't know the history of the Waffen SS, it is an historical fact that by 1944 the Waffen SS would have welcomed them with open arms.

               There was a Ukrainian Waffen SS Div. raised in 1943, which also included Slovaks, Czechs….I guess your Azov, Right Sector soldiers would have found their natural home in this Div.

               14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician)
               • Jenny are we there yet …

                 7 October 2022 at 11:12 pm

                 Here you go Adrian.

                 Lots of new groups for you to accuse of being Nazis.

                 …..Ales Bialiatski, a human rights activist currently jailed in Belarus, along with who human rights organizations, the group Memorial in Russia, and the Ukraine Center for Civil Liberties, were announced Friday as the winners of the 2022 Nobel Peace Prize at the Norwegian Nobel Institute in Oslo, Norway.

                 All of the organizations have worked to highlight rights abuses in Ukraine, Russia, and Russia's close ally Belarus amid President Vladimir Putin's ongoing war in Ukraine.

                 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/2022-nobel-peace-prize_n_633fab45e4b03e8038c7b95d
               • Stuart Munro …

                 8 October 2022 at 4:18 pm

                 Yeah, you know, you need a little bit more than a dated and flimsy assertion of SS internationalism to fit up anyone you don't like as a Nazi.

                 But of course you're only running agitprop for the Putin kleptocracy – we know you're not serious.
           • Jenny are we there yet 2.2.1.1.2.3

             7 October 2022 at 10:58 pm

             Breaking News:

             In the midst of fascist terror in Belarus, Repression in Russia and daily rocket attacks and threats of nuclear weapons being used in Ukraine. For their work to oppose Putin's war of aggression; Russian and Ukrainian and Belarus peace activists opposed to Putin's bloodthirsty war of imperialist aggression, are being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.

             Good on them.

             I might be reaching here Adrian in thinking this. Will you also be smearing these Russian, Ukrainian and Belarus anti-war groups as anti-Russian Azov Nazis?

             Correct me if I am wrong in this Adrian, but will you soon be accusing the the Nobel Committee of being CIA stooges?
       • Sanctuary 2.2.1.2

         7 October 2022 at 11:17 am

         I must admit I have a morbid fascination like that you get from pressing your own bruise to try and grasp exactly why anyone would be so invested in defending a fascist kleptocracy ruled over by a brutal dictator with zero regard for the life or dignity of his nations citizens, or why you are so frantic to justify a brutal and unprovoked war of aggression on the Ukraine.

         Anyway, I aint playing you stupid game of false equivalence and shroud waving trying to manipulate reality.

         Now I am off to make (another) donation directly to the Ukrainian army.
       • Incognito 2.2.1.3

         7 October 2022 at 11:48 am

         I really cannot see your justification for parading those symbols here to try to make a point or something, but you obviously feel it is totally ok.

         Those symbols seem to occupy a lot of room inside your mind; are you sure they’re not couchsurfing there?
   • SPC 2.3

     7 October 2022 at 10:42 am

     Heard of the night wolves, Putin fanboys, and their offshoots in the Balkans – a righteous white Orthodox brotherhood?

     And Putin's neo-Tsarist alliance with the Russian Orthodox Church and their righteous crusade against western liberal decadence?

     The obsession with a sectarian group within Ukrainian nationalism (a historic reaction to over-rule by Russian Bolsheviks – heard of the Ukraine farm collectivisation and the Duginite Novarussia?)

     The justification of Russian conquest and annexation and demonisation of Ukraine independence by such slurs is becoming tragic.
     • Adrian Thornton 2.3.1

       7 October 2022 at 11:09 am

       I am not justifying anything…just pointing out that if you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas, that is all.
       • SPC 2.3.1.1

         7 October 2022 at 11:16 am

         Russia is following American practice in the ME (Iraq, Libya and Syria regime removal) in the Ukraine.

         And the USA is following Russian practice (responding to Syrian/Ukraine calls for help).

         Such is the wheel of time, while no one is claiming Ukraine is perfect, it is at least as deserving of support as Syria.
         • Jenny are we there yet 2.3.1.1.1

           8 October 2022 at 9:57 am

           '

           'Russia is following American and Russian practice in the ME….'

           There you go SPC, fixed it for you.

           Russia committed war crimes in Syria, finds UN report

           The country was also blamed for indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas without ‘a specific military objective’

           Julian Borger in Washington

           Mon 2 Mar 2020 23.30 GMT

           A UN investigation into atrocities committed in Syria has for the first time accused Russia of direct involvement in war crimes for indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas.

           The latest report from the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Syria focuses on events of July 2019 to January this year, and in particular attacks by “pro-government forces” on civilian targets like medical facilities, driving 700,000 civilians from their homes…..

           ….The commission focused on two incidents in which it found substantial evidence that Russian aircraft were directly involved in the bombing of civilian areas. The panel has in the past suggested possible Russian responsibility for war crimes, but this is the first time it has found proof of Moscow’s culpability.

           The first incident was a series of air strikes on a market place in Ma’arrat al-Nu’man, a densely populated area 33 km south of Idlib city, on 22 July. The commission report describes the attack as a “double tap” air strike, in which a second wave of bombing hit the same target when rescue workers were on the site. Forty-three civilians, including four children, were killed and at least 109 injured.

           The second attack investigated was the 16 August bombing of a compound for displaced civilians standing alone in fields just outside Haas in southern Idlib governorate. That attack killed 20 people, including eight women and six children, and injured 40 others.

           “Based on the evidence available, including witness testimonies, video footage, data imagery as well as reports by flight spotters, flight communication intercepts and early warning observation reports, the commission has reasonable grounds to believe that a Russian aircraft participated in each incident described above,” the report said.

           “In both incidents, the Russian Air Force did not direct the attacks at a specific military objective, amounting to the war crime of launching indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas.”….

           ….“The UN very rarely attributes attacks like this, and it is really important that they do so in a report like this. Given the position of the UN in Syria though, it’s not surprising it is tucked away in the report and they haven’t made a big thing of it.”…..

           https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/02/russia-committed-war-crimes-in-syria-finds-un-report

           "….indiscriminate attacks in civilian areas without ‘a specific military objective’…."

           Sound familiar SPC?
       • Incognito 2.3.1.2

         7 October 2022 at 11:50 am

         Fleas, or tics …
         • higherstandard 2.3.1.2.1

           7 October 2022 at 2:01 pm

           Not if you've given them their monthly/3 monthly treatment
   • Jenny are we there yet 2.4

     7 October 2022 at 10:29 pm

     trans·gres·sive

     [tranzˈɡrɛsɪv, trɑːnz-, -ns-]

     ADJECTIVE

     1. involving a violation of moral or social boundaries:

     Mongrel Mob gang members often have swastika tattoos, some even have swastikas tattooed on their face and neck. Mongrel Mob wear Wehrmacht styled coal scuttle thelmets, and greet each other with 'Sieg Heil'.

     Despite the heavy nazi symbolism Mongrel Mob members are not nazis.

     Marginalised groups often try to shock the society that rejected and marginalised them, by using the symbolism of those most detested by that society. That doesn't make them Nazis.

     It was well publicised that after the Christchurch shootings the Mongrel Mob guarded the mosques from further racist attacks. The Mongrel Mob's support was accepted and thanked by the Muslim community. Despite all their 'transgressive' swastikas and German helmets, the Muslim community of Christchurch could see through that. For their part the Mongrel Mob could identify with another marginalised community.

     Context is everything. Sometimes you have to look past the symbols to see the essence.

     The swastika for example is a symbol of peace in India – Context.

     The straight armed salute popularised by the German nazis was copied by the Mau in Samoa when fighting for their independence from New Zealand colonial rule – Again Context.

     Pro-war propagandists like yourself Adrian looking for a reason to justify Russia's aggression, latch on to anything and willfully try to make something bigger of minority trangressive groups or gangs in society to slander the whole society to fit your pro-war narrative.

     ……Fatu's gang gave a powerful and passionate haka performance on the roadside outside the mosque immediately after Friday prayers finished.

     Afterwards a huge crowd gathered around the gang cheered and applauded and many Mulisms hugged the gang members, shook their hands, hongied and took photographs with them….

     ….Earlier today, the Herald reported that the world's biggest Mongrel Mob group said it would abandon use of Nazi symbolism in the wake of the attack.

     Mongrel Mob Kingdom president Paito Fatu told Maori Television's Te Ao that his organisation would no longer use the Mob's rallying cry of the past 50 years, "sieg heil".

     The phrase is German for "hail victory" and was the salute of Adolf Hitler's German National Socialist Party, or Nazi regime.

     Instead "Mongrel Mob" will be the new catch-cry, Fatu told Te Ao, in an effort to move away from violent crime including domestic violence and drug abuse.

     "I like our brothers and sisters to acknowledge each other by saying 'Mongrel Mob'."….

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/christchurch-mosque-shooting-mongrel-mob-members-stand-guard-at-hagley-park-vigil/NLZBJ5EZ5MCHTHDLFMC6IMJ2DA/

     The hall mark of real fascists is genocide racism and war. When confronted with real fascism the Mongrel Mob abandoned their 'transgressive' symbolism.

     The same realisation has probably dawned on Azov Battalion members to abandon their transgressive symbolism in the face of real Russian fascism.
3. Tony Veitch 3

   7 October 2022 at 8:59 am

   George Monibot speaking about the neoliberal abomination in the UK, but oh so relevant to NZ with CEO Luxon hovering on the edges of power.

   Watch – and tremble:

   https://twitter.com/painj/status/1578106761738715136
4. adam 4

   7 October 2022 at 9:16 am

   Our govt should follow and do this.
   • Patricia Bremner 4.1

     7 October 2022 at 11:10 am

     So we need to revisit I think. It still costs too much for patients.
     • SPC 4.1.1

       7 October 2022 at 11:24 am

       They need to develop a very low THC level plant variety and let people grow their own.
   • SPC 4.2

     7 October 2022 at 11:22 am

     They might have to adjust current law, or signal an intent to.

     https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-34-common-crimes/drug-offences/cannabis-and-other-class-c-drugs/
     • SPC 4.2.1

       7 October 2022 at 12:36 pm

       At this point the best option might be to adjust the clean slate legislation as to any custodial sentence for possession of marijuana for personal use.
5. Sanctuary 5

   7 October 2022 at 9:45 am

   I have to confess, the Russian ambassador getting all angsty because his countries brutal and unprovoked war of cultural genocide and imperial conquest in the Ukraine has led to the local Ukrainian community saying some unkind things about Russia and Russians has to be the funniest thing I have read today.

   I just like to think that in the halls of Valhalla Tītokowaru and Charles Upham smile and high five each other everytime the Ukrainians liberate another one of their towns.
6. Bearded Git 6

   7 October 2022 at 10:36 am

   Both jacinda and Luxon were given the opportunity to say goodbye to Susie Ferguson this morning after 8 years on Morning Report. Jacinda did a classy friendly goodbye …Luxon refused the offer. He has no idea on politics

   The funny thing was that replaced 7-houses was replaced with Collins who couldn't resist a few snide comments about Susie's interview style.
   • Peter 6.1

     7 October 2022 at 11:52 am

     Luxon may have refused the offer and may have no idea on politics, but not appearing would have had absolutely, totally, no impact on one vote either way or the other.

     And when it gets down to it, that's all that counts. Normal human stuff doesn't come into it. The ordinariness of Ardern appearing is normal human stuff and will also have had absolutely, totally, no impact on one vote either way or the other.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2

     7 October 2022 at 11:59 am

     Luxie probably thought he might put his foot in it, and Collins, for all her faults, did.

     You have to wonder…
   • Mike the Lefty 6.3

     7 October 2022 at 1:29 pm

     I wonder what Jacinda would say if Mike Hosking retired from radio?

     I hope I get the chance to find out – soon. (Hope like hell)
     • Patricia Bremner 6.3.1

       7 October 2022 at 1:37 pm

       hehehe!! same!! Mike.
     • higherstandard 6.3.2

       7 October 2022 at 1:59 pm

       Why would Hosking retire from radio ?

       I believe he's very well paid and has quite favourable ratings, assuming he enjoys his job he's likely going to be in situ for considerably longer than the PM.
       • Patricia Bremner 6.3.2.1

         7 October 2022 at 2:42 pm

         More shame on us!! What has HE done? Apart from divorce his first wife and buy a flash to show off car!!
         • higherstandard 6.3.2.1.1

           7 October 2022 at 3:32 pm

           Good grief …. take a deep breath and have a cup of tea.

           There really are more important things in the world to worry about than Mike Hosking.
           • Barfly 6.3.2.1.1.1

             7 October 2022 at 3:45 pm

             Heh I can despise him without thinking about him
           • Patricia Bremner 6.3.2.1.1.2

             7 October 2022 at 8:29 pm

             Patronise your Mother Higherstandard.!!
             • Higherstandard …

               7 October 2022 at 9:32 pm

               My mother passed away a long time ago …. not sure why you want me to patronise her ?
     • Stuart Munro 6.3.3

       7 October 2022 at 8:24 pm

       I think she would wish him well. But she would probably smile.
7. Patricia Bremner 7

   7 October 2022 at 11:07 am

   Susie Ferguson is a gem. Enjoyed her insightful questions.
   • rod 7.1

     7 October 2022 at 4:43 pm

     Where is she going now ?
     • Patricia Bremner 7.1.1

       7 October 2022 at 8:27 pm

       Apparently a new role in RNZ. Not sure what .
       • Belladonna 7.1.1.1

         7 October 2022 at 9:09 pm

         Senior presenter and journalist across a range of shows at RNZ. Likely to include podcasts as well.

         https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/470697/susie-ferguson-steps-into-new-role-at-rnz

         Not surprised at the move. Early morning radio is a tough gig (not the show, but the early hours, and the relentless consistency required) – and she's done MR for 8 years.

         Expect to see more of her work throughout the radio broadcast day.
8. SPC 8

   7 October 2022 at 1:36 pm

   A right wing fringe media broadcaster has a problem

   After years in the cable wilderness, he had made a triumphant return to prime time. And his new show, “Tucker Carlson Tonight,” had leapfrogged to the heart of Fox News’s evening lineup just months after Donald J. Trump’s upset victory shattered the boundaries of conventional politics.

   But as Mr. Trump thrashed through his first months in office, Mr. Carlson found himself with an unexpected programming challenge: Fox was too pro-Trump.

   Mr. Carlson told friends and co-workers that he needed to find a way to reach the Trump faithful, but … didn’t want to get sucked into apologizing for Mr. Trump every day, he told one colleague, because the fickle, undisciplined new president would constantly need apologizing for.

   The solution would not just propel Mr. Carlson toward the summit of cable news. It would ultimately thrust him to the forefront of the nationalist forces reshaping American conservatism. “Tucker Carlson Tonight,” the host and his producers decided, would embrace Trumpism, not Mr. Trump.

   …For years, as his television career sputtered, Mr. Carlson had adopted increasingly catastrophic views of immigration and the country’s shifting demographics. Now, as Mr. Trump took unvarnished nativism from the right-wing fringe to the Oval Office, Mr. Carlson made it the centerpiece of “Tucker Carlson Tonight.”

   https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/30/us/tucker-carlson-fox-news.html

   Of course solving such problems has consequences

   Now comes the claim that you can't expect to literally believe the words that come out of Carlson's mouth.

   Just read U.S. District Judge Mary Kay Vyskocil's opinion, leaning heavily on the arguments of Fox's lawyers: The "'general tenor' of the show should then inform a viewer that [Carlson] is not 'stating actual facts' about the topics he discusses and is instead engaging in 'exaggeration' and 'non-literal commentary.' "

   She wrote: "Fox persuasively argues, that given Mr. Carlson's reputation, any reasonable viewer 'arrive[s] with an appropriate amount of skepticism' about the statement he makes."

   Vyskocil, an appointee of President Trump's, added, "Whether the Court frames Mr. Carlson's statements as 'exaggeration,' 'non-literal commentary,' or simply bloviating for his audience, the conclusion remains the same — the statements are not actionable."

   https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/917747123/you-literally-cant-believe-the-facts-tucker-carlson-tells-you-so-say-fox-s-lawye

   Which might be the courts opinion, and his legal shield supplied by Trump's appointees to the bench from the consequences of his pronouncements, but the mainstream promotion of such "half-truths" is corrosive to the body politic. But this might be consistent with with the now prevailing view of SCOTUS – that popular opinion in the states should be able to have its day, even if that day is pre the civil rights movement and reforms of the 1960's. Thus Nixon's southern strategy is coming into its full bloom.

   In the end, Alito may be angry for the same reasons that many conservatives of his demographic are angry—because they find their values increasingly contested; because they feel less culturally authoritative than they once were; because they want to exclude whom they want to exclude, and resent it when others push back. Neil Siegel told me he thought Alito was frustrated because he knows, at some level, that he is fundamentally “dissenting from American culture and where it is ineluctably heading—a society that is increasingly diverse and secular.” As Siegel put it, “The Supreme Court doesn’t really have the power to change that.” Maybe not. But Alito is clearly trying.

   https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/09/05/justice-alitos-crusade-against-a-secular-america-isnt-over
9. Peter 9

   7 October 2022 at 2:33 pm

   The crazy people of Christchurch had their day and it's taken this long, too long for Peter Ellis to have his.

   The Supreme Court has ruled convictions on sex charges against Peter Ellis were based on a miscarriage of justice

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/130089364/supreme-court-quashes-peter-ellis-child-sex-abuse-convictions
   • Ad 9.1

     7 October 2022 at 2:50 pm

     OMG and he's dead.
   • Peter 9.2

     7 October 2022 at 2:54 pm

     Parents of children involved:

     "The trauma of not being believed over the years takes its toll. The court of public opinion is often ill-informed and the facts are lost," they said.

     "Today we would like first and foremost to acknowledge and thank all of the children who, nearly three decades ago suffered terrible abuse and who live with the effects of that abuse today.

     In my opinion the abuse which happened was by the parents of the children involved.

     Started by the parents of the 4-year-old who said he didn't like "Peter's black penis".

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/peter-ellis-convictions-posthumously-quashed-in-landmark-supreme-court-decision/ZHX4Z7WHZJ6A6O4MA55VIXZZ6A/
     • Anne 9.2.1

       7 October 2022 at 4:42 pm

       "In my opinion the abuse which happened was by the parents of the children involved."

       The most disgraceful example of bigotry and mass hysteria in the history of this country. They ruined the life of an innocent young man… you could say they killed him.
       • Anne 9.2.1.1

         7 October 2022 at 5:08 pm

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/130102881/proud-tearful-family-of-creche-worker-peter-ellis-say-his-mana-has-been-restored
         • pat 9.2.1.1.1

           7 October 2022 at 5:44 pm

           “The system is so stacked against the little guy. Some people need to take responsibility. They have ruined so many lives, including those of the children.”

           It took 30 years to admit a (series of) mistake
           • Anne 9.2.1.1.1.1

             7 October 2022 at 5:57 pm

             

             Justice too often depends on who you are and who you know. Those with the loudest voices and/or perceived as having a more senior status are almost always believed over the little guy… or gal.
             • pat …

               7 October 2022 at 6:03 pm

               And justice delayed is justice denied…as this instance amply demonstrates
       • Shanreagh 9.2.1.2

         7 October 2022 at 5:30 pm

         The language and general 'over wroughtness', if that is a word, of the parents in the Civic creche case has similarities with the same language espoused by VFF and other people (NB pejorative word removed and replaced by the word ‘people’) about the Covid vaccinations culminating in the 'happening' at Parliament. Both events driven by forces outside NZ and eagerly lapped up by the conspiracy minded among us.

         Lizard people, the grassy knoll, who really toppled the buildings on 9/11 and many more conspiracies.

         The Civic creche case was an example of a moral panic

         'Moral panic is defined as a public mass movement, based on false or exaggerated perceptions or information that exceeds the actual threat society is facing. Moral panic is a widespread fear and often an irrational threat to society's values, interests, and safety.'

         More on moral panics

         https://helpfulprofessor.com/moral-panic-examples/

         Also of concern was the use of Dr Karin Zelas by the prosecution. The Supreme Court was very critical of her evidence

         https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/10/07/peter-ellis-case-supreme-court-quashes-child-abuse-convictions/

         'Major problems with psychiatrist's evidence

         Today the court found there were major problems with the evidence given during the trial by Dr Karen Zelas, a psychiatrist. A Crown witness, Dr Zelas was involved in supervising the interviews of the children and helped the police with their investigation.

         Her evidence highlighted 20 behaviours by the children, including bedwetting and sleeping problems, that she testified were consistent with the behaviour of sexually abused children generally.

         The Supreme Court found Dr Zelas’ evidence departed from appropriate standards. It found it lacked balance, suffered from problematic circular reasoning and had the overall effect of suggesting to the jury that “clusters” of behaviour support a finding of sexual abuse.

         The court said none of those problems were counteracted by cross-examination, the judge’s summing up or the defence’s expert witness. Therefore the court found a substantial miscarriage of justice had occurred.

         The Supreme Court also looked into the risk of the children’s evidence being contaminated, particularly by questioning from parents. During the Supreme Court appeal, Ellis’ lawyer relied on new evidence from memory experts, including studies post-dating the trial.

         There was substantial agreement from both the experts for the Crown and the appellant that the risk of contamination was higher than the jury in 1993 was led to believe, and that if contamination occurred it would not have been readily detectable.

         The Supreme Court found that although the risk of contamination was traversed at the 1993 trial, the jury was not fairly informed of the level of risk."

         Hopefully the use of such evidence is more thoroughly vetted nowadays.
         • Anne 9.2.1.2.1

           7 October 2022 at 5:42 pm

           The language and general 'over wroughtness', … of the parents in the Civic creche case has similarities with the same language espoused by VFF and other people … about the Covid vaccinations culminating in the 'happening' at Parliament. Both events driven by forces outside NZ and eagerly lapped up by the conspiracy minded among us.

           Beautifully put. Thankyou for an excellent detailed account Shanreagh.
   • pat 9.3

     7 October 2022 at 2:58 pm

     This should be a reminder that mass hysteria is indeed a thing.

     At least Peter Ellis' name is now (officially) cleared, sadly somewhat belatedly.
     • higherstandard 9.3.1

       7 October 2022 at 3:35 pm

       Very true, happy that the miscarriage of justice has finally been righted but sad that he's not here to see it.
       • aj 9.3.1.1

         7 October 2022 at 6:12 pm

         The TV1 interview, John Campbell and Peter Ellis, just screening right now and never seen before. Peter Ellis was a brave man.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 9.4

     7 October 2022 at 4:02 pm

     As the end of the film 'The Hunt" shows, some stains, no matter how undeserved, can’t be completely erased. There’s a lesson in what happened to Ellis, and no winners.
     • Belladonna 9.4.1

       7 October 2022 at 8:33 pm

       No winners in any of it.

       Profoundly grateful that his name has been cleared, and deeply saddened that he's not here to see it.

       Another appalling side effect has been the effective exclusion of virtually all men from working in ECE, and many from working as primary teachers.

       Not, because there was anything official – but they saw the writing on the wall and perceived the risk of having their lives destroyed by a mistaken or even malicious child abuse accusation.

       Our education system has been the poorer for it.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/114782450/more-males-needed-as-early-childhood-teachers-to-reflect-true-diversity-advocates-say

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/114783073/group-for-male-early-childhood-teachers-supports-peter-ellis-appeal
10. Mat Simpson 10

    7 October 2022 at 4:42 pm

    Kris Faafoi – a case study of the “revolving door .

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/10/07/political-roundup-faafois-lobbying-position-should-be-illegal/
    • pat 10.1

      7 October 2022 at 5:26 pm

      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/10/07/political-roundup-faafois-lobbying-position-should-be-illegal/

      "There are several commentators calling for the Labour Government to introduce new rules about lobbying and particularly the revolving door. The problem is that it’s not in Labour’s interests to tighten up the rules. At the moment they’re the worst offenders, so why would they want to introduce tighter laws that would impact negatively on themselves?"

      It is worth considering that legality dosnt discount corruption, indeed the worst corruption is legitimised.

      And they wonder why they are viewed with disdain(or possibly not)….it's largely deserved.

      We get the politicians we desreve!!
      • Stuart Munro 10.1.1

        7 October 2022 at 6:28 pm

        We get the politicians we desreve!!

        Germany did not deserve Hitler and Cambodia did not deserve Pol Pot. Many NZers do not deserve Jacinda Ardern either.
        • Barfly 10.1.1.1

          7 October 2022 at 6:57 pm

          Wow that is the longest bow I have ever seen drawn!
          • Anne 10.1.1.1.1

            7 October 2022 at 7:19 pm

            Read it again Barfly.
        • pat 10.1.1.2

          7 October 2022 at 7:06 pm

          The price of democracy is eternal vigilance
          • Stuart Munro 10.1.1.2.1

            7 October 2022 at 7:43 pm

            Well the watchers have certainly been asleep in NZ. Shame the media are too lame to do their job.
            • pat 10.1.1.2.1.1

              7 October 2022 at 7:45 pm

              We can blame the media as much as we blame ourselves….or rather we should.
          • joe90 10.1.1.2.2

            7 October 2022 at 8:08 pm

            The price of democracy is eternal vigilance

            But we can work with them.

            https://twitter.com/B4DC0FFEE/status/1575603981887602688

            https://twitter.com/B4DC0FFEE/status/1575605832443604992

            https://twitter.com/B4DC0FFEE/status/1575608792967880704

            “Normalization” is one of the big buzzwords of our era: we are constantly told we mustn’t normalize this or that. With the election of Donald Trump, liberals fretted that he would become normalized, but it’s interesting to note that the liberal and conservative strategy for dealing with Benito Mussolini after he became prime minister in 1922 was to normalize him. In fact, one could say that normalization was how Mussolini gained power in the first place: King Victor Emmanuel summoned him to form a government to avoid a violent coup during the March on Rome. The belief was that by channelling the Fascists into the constitutional system they would abandon violence and serve a constructive role.

            The old elite also thought they could use this stratagem to sideline the most fascist Fascists, the squadristi who often came from a “national syndicalist” background and envisioned for a social revolution along with a political takeover. While they may have hoped for a revolution, the squadristi beat up and killed Socialists and trades unionists at the behest of landowners and industrialists, so the establishment may be forgiven for thinking Fascism was really on the side of social order. The establishment’s plan was to absorb or transform Fascism, rather than defeat it head on. This appeared plausible since Mussolini was so equivocal and unclear about his true goals: there seemed to be little ideological consistency at all among the Fascists; they could be useful in a number of different ways.

            https://johnganz.substack.com/p/the-matteotti-crisis?
            • pat 10.1.1.2.2.1

              7 October 2022 at 8:11 pm

              Some can work with "them"….and some make 'them' inevitable
      • Mat Simpson 10.1.2

        7 October 2022 at 7:41 pm

        " The problem is that it’s not in Labour’s interests to tighten up the rules. At the moment they’re the worst offenders, so why would they want to introduce tighter laws that would impact negatively on themselves?"

        But what about that far away promise of Adern's …what was it ? I will lead an open and transparent government !

        Bit like " own your future and LOL # Let's do this …maybe # Let's not eh.

        Two different forms of reality …Politicians and real life.
        • pat 10.1.2.1

          7 October 2022 at 7:44 pm

          I think i have made my opinion of (successful?) politicians quite clear….and it is impartial.
11. Joe90 11

    7 October 2022 at 4:46 pm

    The sinister abduction of children for use as human shields.

    https://twitter.com/niktwick/status/1577941657030377472

    Kherson children will spend autumn holidays in the best health resorts of Crimea

    Taking into account the numerous requests and wishes of parents, from October 6 to October 21, 2022, the Ministry of Education and Science of the Kherson region of the Russian Federation announces vacations for schoolchildren of general educational institutions in the city of Kherson and in Belozersky, Berislavsky, Kakhovka, Snigiryovsky municipal districts, as well as in the Novokakhovka city district and students of secondary vocational educational institutions.

    Children during the vacation period will take part in the health programs of the Russian Federation on the territory of the Republic of Crimea.
    They are waiting for educational events, exciting trips and meetings with interesting people.

    The Ministry of Education and Science of the Kherson region expresses its deep gratitude to the Government and the Ministry of Education, Science and Youth of the Republic of Crimea for the opportunity to improve the health of Kherson children during the velvet season in the best health resorts of Crimea.

    google translate

    https://t.me/VGA_Kherson/3858
12. aj 12

    7 October 2022 at 5:04 pm

    Aaron Maté, Max Bumenthal and Katie Halper often take flak – a sure sign they are getting close to the target. They are insightful and articulate reporters, present their arguments clearly and back them with facts.

    In this interview hosted by Briahna Joy Gray (former press sec for Bernie Sanders) Maté explores not just the video's headline about who blew up the Nordstream 2 pipeline but also the threat of nuclear war and the complex recent background to the conflict.
    Oh, and to either bring joy or fury to the commenters this earlier this afternoon, they cover Azov and fascism.

    It's becoming more clear that the USA's reason for proxy war with Russia in Ukraine is about the control and distribution of fossil fuel in Europe. The usual thing – war is about money and power.

    This full video is an interesting watch because of the quality of the interviewer and her questions, Aaron outlines his concerns about the sabotage mostly in the first 10-15 minutes. He refers to the comments made by Blinken, Radoslaw Sikorski, Biden amongst others, and also references recent interviews with Jeffrey Sachs (that are worth watching as well)

    • Secretary of State Blinken said last Friday that "the damage and disruption to the pipelines are being seen in Washington as a tremendous opportunity to greatly reduce European energy imports on Russia"

    • Former Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski tweeted "Thank you, USA," along with a picture of the massive gas spill in the Baltic Sea, then deleted it. He did not delete another tweet that read "As we say in Polish, a small thing, but so much joy" with the same picture of the bubbling water.

    • Biden on the 8th Feb 2022 on video: “If Russia invades – that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine again – then there will no longer be a Nord Stream 2,” Biden said at a press conference with Scholz. “We will bring an end to it.”

    
    
    
    • Barfly 12.1

      7 October 2022 at 7:01 pm

      Gee whiz I guess those sneaky yanks are Just so Lucky that Putin invaded Ukraine huh?

      /Tui add
      • aj 12.1.1

        7 October 2022 at 7:59 pm

        You don't have to think too much when you live inside the submissive void.
        • weston 12.1.1.1

          8 October 2022 at 12:06 am

          What continues to amaze me is the amount of supposedly intelligent people out there waving their little blue and yellow flags and they never even mention the people off the donbass and their eight years of hell its like they dont even exist .

          Its not like the nightmare is over either with the referendums being conducted as the ukranians have promised long prison sentences for any civilian exercising his right to self determination by joining the russian federation .

          Hopefully if the offensives continue to regain territory they'll be able to escape behind russian lines before the secret police get there !!

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