Open mike 07/11/2022

82 comments on “Open mike 07/11/2022 ”

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1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1

   7 November 2022 at 7:30 am

   Hydropower

   I think we in NZ have all the ability and expertise to do this.

   Would be great if Labour and Greens start a NZ Public Works…akin to the old Ministry of Works. We built so much back in the day. Can do it again !

   https://www.hydro.com.au/the-spill/the-spill/2020/05/06/the-underground-world-of-hydropower

   https://www.herrenknecht.com/en/products/tunnelling/hydropower/

   Cmon Labour. This would work. Public Works NZ again.We can do this . Labour and Greens United ! Fight back against nact.
   • Ad 1.1

     7 November 2022 at 8:08 am

     So many reasons this is a bad idea.

     – The Ministry of Works together with the Electricity Corporation was responsible for the wholesale destruction of both the Waikato and Clutha rivers, which are our largest. Try and get the book "Who Killed The Clutha?", which is the history of 100 years of damming on that river.

     Hydroelectric power New Zealand | Institution of Civil Engineers (ICE)

     – The RMA and its replacement due to come into Parliament this week. The last time anyone tried a full-on dam was Ruataniwha. Even Supreme Court action failed to deter the government of the day this was a bad idea. No public agency will try for a new dam within our legislative framework current or future. The Ministry of the Ministry of Works, once you get past glorying in monumental concrete, is a history of environmental destruction on a stupendous scale.

     By Design – A Brief History of the Public Works Department – Ministry of Works 1870 – 1970 | Noonan, Rosslyn J. | Arty Bee's Books (artybees.co.nz)

     – Agglomerated Ministries and government agencies get to a certain level of scale and fail to deliver benefits. Is anything getting better under health? What about agglomerated water? Or agglomerated Auckland? Or agglomerated public media? Or agglomerated MBIE? Or indeed any of the others coming.

     There are a few upgrades to existing dams, such as the Arnold River on the west coast. The last big one was fully completed in the early 1990s. Their social license simply ran out.

     But actually it's time some of the older dams were ripped down, like Roxburgh, and let the rivers flow back the way they should.

     The one coming up and getting a full Cabinet "go to full plan" decision in December is the NZ Battery Project, which requires raising on an existing dam, with zero Clutha impact. I suspect that will continue into a National government because the Transpower team are fairly smart.

     Let's not do dumb ideas again.
     • Stuart Munro 1.1.1

       7 November 2022 at 10:09 am

       The MoW did a pretty good job of the Waitaki &b Ohau schemes, even if they did neglect to protect eel migration. (On which note Niwa have solved half the great mystery of eel spawning – just haven't got full elver growth yet).

       Where they failed the government in power owe the greater part of the responsibility.

       When we had a MoW we didn't see pitiful corrupt shit like $50 million being spent on not building a cycle bridge, or 20-30 year talkfests instead of building railway lines.

       The self-styled technocracy have not covered themselves in glory.
       • Tiger Mountain 1.1.1.1

         7 November 2022 at 12:02 pm

         What the old Ministries did despite their flaws, and what import substitution manufacturing regimes, such as car assembly did, was provide full time work, for thousands of working class people for many decades. As did provincial “County Councils” and City Councils with their own road repair and infrastructure maintenance teams.

         A 21st century publicly owned infrastructure and construction Ministry would be a great thing. Fulton Hogan always seem to be at their busiest when there are unused funding allocations…

         Rogernomics greatest shame perhaps was that the many thousands discarded with the collapse of manufacturing and flogging off of public sector assets–via macro economic decisions beyond workers immediate ability to influence–were never seriously retrained or catered for. No, they were demonised as dole bludgers, as are their descendants of the permanent underclass, and then ground into the dust with markets rents for state houses, paid tertiary, Police racial profiling, and Richardson’s MOAB.
         • Shanreagh 1.1.1.1.1

           7 November 2022 at 1:17 pm

           Got it ..very profound and correctly stating the impact of those times.

           Those reforms ripped the guts out of the middle/working classes in many small towns. In some small towns with high Maori populations Maori were hugely affected and probably never recovered.

           I know in my PS workplace we had many jobs that catered for less abled workers who became part of our work lives. A permanent head I worked with was profoundly upset when, finally after protecting these workers against all manner of sinking lids, slash 3% off staffing programmes, finally had to let these staff go when SSC, at the Govts behest, came in for reviews of those in support roles. As we kept in touch after our colleagues left we knew many never ever got another job in the whole of their remaining working lives.
           • Tiger Mountain 1.1.1.1.1.1

             7 November 2022 at 2:26 pm

             Number of my South & West Auckland colleagues never got “proper” jobs again either after Roger’s wrecking ball and the Nats ’91 union busting ECA. Demolition, scavenging, film industry, labour only contracting, service industry, building, move to the provinces–subsistence style etc. was their career path.

             I turned previous volunteer cut & paste layout skills into digital publishing when Mac computers and software made it possible, still do it from the Far North.
           • Nic the NZer 1.1.1.1.1.2

             7 November 2022 at 6:42 pm

             "Those reforms ripped the guts out of the middle/working classes in many small towns. In some small towns with high Maori populations Maori were hugely affected and probably never recovered."

             Its more clear than probably. The costs of longer term unemployment are not only the income lost during the period of unemployment but also the difference in career path due to limited work history. To some extent this will also occur even for people who managed retraining, because they then start again from a similar position as recent entrants into that line of work.
             • Shanreagh …

               7 November 2022 at 8:03 pm

               Yes you are correct re 'probably'.

               To some extent this will also occur even for people who managed retraining, because they then start again from a similar position as recent entrants into that line of work.

               And correct with this as well.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.2

       7 November 2022 at 11:27 pm

       So many reasons this is a bad idea.

       Oh..really? Your example of the Clutha…and the Clyde dam was primarily Muldoons Think Big mistake.

       Norm Kirks Labour had originally wanted a low dam….which would have been so much better. And saved not only land, but a huge amount of wasted $millions.

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_Dam

       In the old MOW, NZ had a great amount of skilled People, from Trades through to Engineers. We lost all that. Many to…the likes of Downers and other private companies etc….

       Dams werent the only Projects MOW did…..you seem hung up on that. Also I dont see the NZ Battery Project as being quite the sure thing you assume. Still many questions to be answered.

       Anyway this from 2010..

       Coast perfect for hydro generation

       Unfortunately hydro- electricity is often associated in New Zealand with the permanent flooding of agricultural or highly scenic river valleys. This need not be so.

       In Europe hydro construction has continued and not one major valley has been lost in the last 50 years.

       Dozens of schemes exist where water is diverted from a high valley through a tunnel and at the exit point penstocks and a generating station are constructed.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/perspective/3837599/Coast-perfect-for-hydro-generation

       IMO this would work.
2. Ad 2

   7 November 2022 at 8:41 am

   Very sorry to hear of the passing of Mike Davis who wrote City of Quartz, the best Marxist geography of LA I've ever seen.

   Mike Davis' blue-collar odyssey to "City of Quartz": From trucker to legendary leftist writer | Salon.com

   One for my retirement list is a Marxist geography of Auckland.
   • swordfish 2.1

     7 November 2022 at 6:26 pm

     .

     Sorry to hear this … his long essay, Obama at Manassas in the New Left Review (March-April 2009), was a tour de force in popularising & summarising the changing demography & geography of the presidential vote in a highly colourful & highly accessible way.

     Here's one vibrant passage I've always remembered:

     Psephology—the statistical analysis of elections—is an inscrutably American obsession, like chewing tobacco or varmint hunting. Although Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair and Ehud Barak have all toyed with the dark art, and a Brit originally coined the Greek-cognate term in the 1950s, only those native-born in a Louisiana bayou or a Washington law firm are likely to possess the consummate instinct for extracting winning strategies from a few shavings of an electoral vote. Some have compared voting analysis to the subtle skill of a sommelier, but it is actually more akin (to extend the French analogy) to the acute attentiveness of Louis XIV’s physicians to the contents of the royal chamber pot

     Some impressive – and highly colourful -analysis of more recent elections too.
3. Jenny are we there yet 3

   7 November 2022 at 9:39 am

   '

   'Bomb them back to the stone age'

   Quote attributed to US Airforce General Curtis LeMay

   LeMay tried to walk back this brutal quote, saying that he meant that the US had the potential to bomb Vietnam back to the Stone Age, and blamed his ghost writer for the misquote.

   …..he reportedly said, in the mid-60s, that, in order to win the Vietnam war (which was dragging endlessly on during that period) the US military should, “bomb the North Vietnamese back into the Stone Age.”

   …. “I never said we should bomb them back to the Stone Age. I said we had the capability to do it….

   …..LeMay then elaborated on this, saying that he thought the best strategy would be to annihilate North Vietnamese infrastructure,

   ……he blamed his ghost writer for misunderstanding the subtleties of what he was saying, and putting the emphasis on bombing the North Vietnamese people.

   https://professorbuzzkill.com/qnq-34/

   A war strategy so brutal that it's author tried to distance himself from it.

   When the US war in Vietnam became bogged down, LeMay said the US's best strategy was to destroy their infrastructure.

   No Russian Federation military or political leader has been quoted as saying, 'Bomb them back to the Stone Age'. But they are carrying out General LeMay's policy in practice.

   Kyiv prepares for a winter with no heat, water or power

   The mayor of Kyiv, Ukraine’s capital, is warning residents that they must prepare for the worst this winter if Russia keeps striking the country’s energy infrastructure

   BySAM MEDNICK Associated Press

   November 7, 2022, 9:16 AM

   …mayor of Kyiv, Ukraine’s capital, is warning residents that they must prepare for the worst this winter if Russia keeps striking the country’s energy infrastructure — and that means having no electricity, water or heat in the freezing cold cannot be ruled out.

   “We are doing everything to avoid this. But let’s be frank, our enemies are doing everything for the city to be without heat, without electricity, without water supply, in general, so we all die…..

   https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraine-warns-russian-brutality-eastern-region-92754498

   Imagine how your family would cope in Auckland without water or power.

   Curtis LeMay's brutal policy of destroying Vietnam's infrastructure, didn't save the US imperialists from defeat in Vietnam, it won't save the Russian Federation imperialists from defeat in Ukraine.
4. roy cartland 4

   7 November 2022 at 10:25 am

   In case anyone missed this NYT piece (I think it was posted here recently), it's really worth a read or a listen (article has audio of the text).

   David Wallace Wells, who wrote the apocalyptic climate prediction book The Uninhabitable Earth 5 years ago, writes about some stunning turnarounds we've achieved. Obviously not enough, but shows what we can do.

   We've cut the prediction of the worst in half, in just 5 years. We know a bit more about what to expect so we can plan. Protest, lobbying and relentless advocacy WORKS! The overton window has shifted significantly. Renewables have drastically declined in price. We might – might – just have a chance, which is better than before.
   • roy cartland 4.1

     7 November 2022 at 10:41 am

     BTW, it's still pretty grim – just more hopeful by comparison. The point is to show what can be achieved, if/when we rapidly increase efforts. Not the time to kick back.
     • roy cartland 4.1.1

       7 November 2022 at 11:05 am

       (From article) The idea that fossil fuels are inherently 'bad' is not as much a thing among the global South and underdeveloped. It's the West's profligate use of them that makes people angry: "climate coloniality". When renewables become economically strong enough, there may well be attacks on fossil nations, and alliances between renewable nations (which will too become stronger).

       The danger and effects haven't stopped, they will increase long before the climate even stabilises. Disruption and heartache will continue, but we can limit the worst and prepare. Climate despair is the worst thing next to disdain.
   • roy cartland 4.2

     7 November 2022 at 11:10 am

     Sorry, it was NRT where I saw the article repost (credit where it's due).
5. Anker 5

   7 November 2022 at 11:33 am

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/staff-make-formal-complaint-about-plight-of-north-shore-hospitals-ed-and-mental-health-patients/WIDMIAPE2RH7PIAQOJ6BVDOD2U/

   I think Mr Little is busy in a meeting with Health NZ discussing their anti racist programme (sarc) and tonight will be attending the drag kareoke for staff, so the real health system will just have to wait its turn, like the mental health patients in ED……..
   • Louis 5.1

     7 November 2022 at 12:18 pm

     Not new.

     2009 North Shore hospitals among worst

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/north-shore-times/47559/North-Shore-hospitals-among-worst
     • Belladonna 5.1.1

       7 November 2022 at 2:29 pm

       Agree, that it's not new.

       However, I don't think that you'd find a health professional who didn't agree that wait times in any hospital are markedly worse than they were 10 years ago. And that the stress on the staff is correspondingly worse.

       And, yes, there are lots of reasons for this.

       I spent nearly 10 hours with my elderly mother in NS hospital ED a couple of months ago – after a bad fall. Watching the obvious stress on the staff with the ever-increasing numbers coming through the door (this wasn't even a busy time); as well as the distress of unwell people who didn't feel that they were getting the care they needed in a timely fashion (or at all – we watched people walk out the door).

       Really, no one is interested in which hospital is 'worst' – what we want to see is a coherent plan for making all of them better. Taskforces won't do it. You need actual staff members, and care beds (whether inside or outside the hospital system).
       • Anker 5.1.1.1

         7 November 2022 at 5:15 pm

         Belladonna the catastrophe that is the health work force crisis is terrifying and it should have been the very first thing Labour attended to way back in 2017 when Ian Powell told David Clark there was a Health workforce crisis.

         Labour have f..ked around with new Health Authorities and getting bureacrats to write long documents on racism in the health force , when even at the end of long documents they have to concede that there is not conclusive evidence that racism leads to poor health outcomes for Maori. I quoted it yesterday on OM I think it was and happy to re-write it on request.

         Little can't even resolve a pay dispute with the nurses union (and dissed them). Little should be sacked. While I can't be sure, it is likely Reti will do better. At least he was talking about a third medical school
         • Anne 5.1.1.1.1

           7 November 2022 at 7:25 pm

           Stop blaming Little for everything Anker. The health situation in NZ has been steadily deteriorating for at least two decades – probably much longer. Yes, it has now reached a critical point and that in large part has been due to Covid. Placing all the blame on the current government and its minister is unrealistic.

           The government is fighting an uphill battle to attract more overseas nurses and doctors but they are having to compete with the rest of the planet in a finite world. We are far from alone in our health sector problems.

           As far as the nurses pay battles are concerned. They had an offer of a major pay increase less than two years ago and turned it down did they not? Of course they are worthy of more, but once again this is a finite situation. There are other sectors of society equally deserving of a slice of the ever diminishing size of the cake – and that once again is due to international problems and by no means all the fault of the current government.
           • Louis 5.1.1.1.1.1

             8 November 2022 at 12:46 pm

             "Let me be clear: the proposal was one they put to the Government. The Nurses Organisation rejected their own proposal"

             https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/health-minister-andrew-little-responding-new-zealand-nurses-organisations-rejection-latest

             “I have to say, as a former union leader involved in negotiating settlements, it is very unusual for a union to re-litigate terms of settlement that they have already signed up to,”

             "Little flatly denied there was any promise of back pay. In the end, there’s only one agreement that counts – it’s the one done on December 2021"

             https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300569099/nurses-consider-going-to-era-over-broken-promise-in-pay-equity-deal#:~:text=Health%20Minister%20Andrew%20Little%20says,deal%20to%20a%20membership%20vote.
         • millsy 5.1.1.1.2

           7 November 2022 at 8:44 pm

           Really? Reti is on record as saying that doctors should be able to charge patients whatever they want, which means we will have doctors fees of up to $150-200. Not too sure how people can afford that.

           He also despises the concept of public healthcare and looks up to the USA system, where people die if they cannot afford insurance.
           • Anker 5.1.1.1.2.1

             7 November 2022 at 8:47 pm

             Didn't know that about Reti Cheers Millsy
             • higherstandard …

               8 November 2022 at 7:12 am

               You didn't know that about Shane Reti because it is nonsense … Millsy is lying.
           • Tony Veitch 5.1.1.1.2.2

             8 November 2022 at 5:35 am

             Yes, Reti would like what is known as a 'wallet biopsy' in this country – if you can afford it, you'll get it.

             Thank you, but no.
           • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.1.1.1.2.3

             8 November 2022 at 7:15 am

             Absolutely. Some…(even on the Standard )…have seen him as the kinder, caring face of the nats. Bullshit its just a mask…and if he was kinder and caring he wouldnt be a nat.

             nats have always seen Our NZ Health system as something to be reduced..even privatised.
           • Belladonna 5.1.1.1.2.4

             8 November 2022 at 1:20 pm

             Since it's 'on record' I'm sure you'll be able to link to the source.
       • Louis 5.1.1.2

         8 November 2022 at 12:28 pm

         The post was specifically directed at North Shore Hospital, that doesn't have a good rep.

         Te Whatu Ora Health New Zealand was only implemented on July 1st, the new system is still in the transitional phase.

         There is a world wide shortage of health workers.

         https://www.healthdata.org/news-release/worldwide-shortage-health-workers-threatens-effective-health-coverage

         "The Government is rolling out a suite of targeted measures to train more health workers domestically and bring more doctors and nurses into the country to help address immediate workforce pressures"

         “On March 31 this year, 1,765 more doctors and 4,277 more nurses were working for Health New Zealand than there were when we came into Government in 2017.

         https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/government-plan-boost-health-workers

         "New fund targets 20,000 nurses who have left profession"

         https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/461463/new-fund-targets-20-000-nurses-who-have-left-profession
         • Belladonna 5.1.1.2.1

           8 November 2022 at 1:22 pm

           Just wondering in what way the NS hospital 'doesn't have a good rep'

           In terms of waiting times – Middlemore hospital is widely recognised to have even greater infrastructure issues (staffing, beds, and overwhelmed ED).

           https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/ldr/476824/middlemore-emergency-department-slammed-as-unsafe-for-patients-and-staff
           • Louis 5.1.1.2.1.1

             8 November 2022 at 2:08 pm

             Everyone I know that has gone there wished they had gone somewhere else

             "Third World conditions at North Shore Hospital"

             https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/how-the-hospital-failed-my-daughter/7WO5Q3E7BXFKYUPFGY2NGAFWKI/
             • Belladonna …

               8 November 2022 at 2:56 pm

               So we've reached 2010 from your initial link from 2009 — anything recent – to match the current reports from Middlemore from this year (linked above) – where people actually have died?

               I've (sadly) had a lot of time in and out of NSH over the last 20 years – with a wide range of family and friends. I wouldn't rate it especially poorly. Though it's suffering from the same problems all hospitals are ATM – with understaffing, limited beds (often because it's not possible to discharge people safely), and overwhelmingly increased demand on the ED.

               If you're interested in historic trends – here's one saying that the Middlemore issues aren't Covid-caused – but have been imminent for more than a decade.

               https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300714777/systemwide-solutions-needed-to-fix-unsafe-middlemore-ed-doctor-says

               My three most recent ED experiences, I'd rate as: Starship (best), NS Hospital, Auckland (last, by a long way – largely due to the unmanageably violent/drunk/high people the staff had to cope with).
               • Louis …

                 8 November 2022 at 3:26 pm

                 "the current reports from Middlemore from this year (linked above) – where people actually have died" Are you claiming this has never happened before?

                 The people I know, including family members have had a different experience from you and do not rate North shore hospital well at all. Hospitals have always had to deal with "violent/drunk/high people" Many of the problems you have listed are not new hence the new health reforms.
6. tsmithfield 6

   7 November 2022 at 1:14 pm

   Here is an interesting video about economical methods of hydrogen production that have the potential to replace hydrocarbons in industry and transport.

   The video points out that the main issue with hydrogen production is that it usually involves hydrocarbons to produce it. Hence, until this problem is solved, hydrogen isn't a viable replacement for hydrocarbons in that the hydrogen production process uses more hydrocarbons than hydrogen use can save.

   However, the video explains how the Japanese have come up with an intrinsically safe nuclear reactor. The intrinsically safe aspect was vital for them due to recent history that is well known. This reactor is able to economically produce hydrogen as part of its process.

   So, if we can all get our heads around intrinsically safe nuclear reactors, it looks like there could be a lot of promise in this concept.
   • AB 6.1

     7 November 2022 at 2:18 pm

     Maybe. How many wonderfully promising potential new cancer cures have you heard about in your lifetime? Not that I'm an out and out techno-sceptic – our reluctance to move away from BAU economics will likely mean we delay and delay until multiple interlocking crises demand miraculous technology solutions. If they exist they will be welcome of course – though if they are not put into the public domain but remain in private ownership, they'll drive inequality to stratospheric levels.
     • tsmithfield 6.1.1

       7 November 2022 at 4:10 pm

       I think this actually a working prototype. They have deliberately set melt-down conditions where the cores get to maximum temperatures. But the composition of the nuclear rods has easily stood up to those conditions.
   • Sacha 6.2

     7 November 2022 at 3:37 pm

     Does it produce intrinsically safe radioactive waste?
     • Incognito 6.2.1

       7 November 2022 at 4:00 pm

       Yup, if you’re a cockroach 😉
       • tsmithfield 6.2.1.1

         7 November 2022 at 4:15 pm

         The Japanese are very cautious with nuclear since their experience with Fukushima. So, they would have to be absolutely about safety certain to use the technology on safety grounds.

         If we are serious about saving the planet, then hydrogen is the logical fuel to replace hydrocarbons for industrial use. If hydrogen can be produced safely and economically with this type of technology, then I think we need to put pragmatics over ideology.
         • Incognito 6.2.1.1.1

           7 November 2022 at 5:35 pm

           You should have left it at your answer @ 6.2.2 to Sacha.

           I have a big ideological problem with cockroaches because they have a large carbon footprint, amongst other issues.

           https://www.rentokil.co.uk/blog/flatulent-cockroaches-adapt-climate-change

           https://www.cockroachzone.com/how-often-does-a-cockroach-fart/

           I’m very concerned that your ‘safe’ radioactive waste could lead to mutations in cockroaches creating Cockzilla and then our climate will be truly stuffed
           • In Vino 6.2.1.1.1.1

             7 November 2022 at 8:01 pm

             Don't want to add to your vexed state, but I thought I had read that water vapour is one of the worst greenhouse gases. Our planet produces huge amounts already – is it predictably wise for us to entertain the idea burning blistering billions of tons of hydrogen, adding to the total water vapour?
             • Incognito …

               7 November 2022 at 9:06 pm

               Yes, very good point, which is why we’d need efficient condensers & traps to recycle the water back. Water is a precious commodity too.
     • tsmithfield 6.2.2

       7 November 2022 at 4:06 pm

       “Does it produce intrinsically safe radioactive waste?”

       In the video they say that is still an issue to be overcome. So, no, it looks like waste is still a problem.
       • Sacha 6.2.2.1

         7 November 2022 at 4:11 pm

         I have a surefire world-beating business idea, but funding is still an issue to be overcome.
       • Drowsy M. Kram 6.2.2.2

         7 November 2022 at 4:55 pm

         Fusion reactors are also proving a tough nut to crack, but there was something…

         I just hope that human behaviour doesn't get in the way of making wise use of all that surplus energy – whenever it becomes available.

         https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-energy-use

         Meanwhile, we can continue to make more efficient use of energy, and even use less energy – we've done it before (Target 10%) and it wasn't the end of the world.

         The World’s Biggest Source of Clean Energy Is Evaporating Fast
         [26 Oct 2022]
         From California to Germany and China, climate change-fueled heatwaves and droughts have shrunk rivers that feed giant hydropower plants.
       • aj 6.2.2.3

         7 November 2022 at 5:13 pm

         Worth reading up about this much less widely known mess.

         https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/18/hanford-is-ripe-for-a-radioactive-explosion/
     • roblogic 6.2.3

       7 November 2022 at 6:30 pm

       Scaremongering about nuclear waste is a mind virus that ignores a massive potential energy source that can help us to fight CC and move away from oil.

       Aiming for perfection is the enemy of "good enough" solutions that offer real progress.

       https://twitter.com/jrmygrdn/status/1582354314957578240?s=20&t=OMGBdzIKKzzC9VaRbSbDxQ

       https://twitter.com/NuclearHazelnut/status/1537888635667611656?s=20&t=OMGBdzIKKzzC9VaRbSbDxQ
       • Sacha 6.2.3.1

         7 November 2022 at 7:10 pm

         Perfection is the minimal standard for things that are likely to cause mass destruction. See other comments above.
         • roblogic 6.2.3.1.1

           7 November 2022 at 7:18 pm

           "likely to cause mass destruction"… like hydroelectric dam failures?

           https://twitter.com/Quantling/status/1587998853910786049?s=20&t=X7VZXkT9cuTDPxFgff3Xog
7. Sacha 7

   7 November 2022 at 1:24 pm

   Stumbled on this story over the weekend and judging by ongoing comments here some may find it interesting. https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/02/detransition-movement-star-ex-gay-explained.html

   Detransitioners may be a small group—even the highest estimates are in the hundreds, compared with an estimated number of transgender-identified people in the low millions—but they have been influential in pushing their denial that trans identity is real.

   Publicly, detransitioners disavow not only their individual transition histories but also the fact that transition helps trans people worldwide to live comfortably in their own skin. Although a few men also identify as detransitioned, most of the community congregates in sex-exclusive online forums for detransitioned women only. They believe gender dysphoria is common among women and disappears when they learn to love and accept their female bodies.

   Detransitioned women have gained influence because of strong interest in their stories by both anti-trans activists and some journalists.
   • arkie 7.1

     7 November 2022 at 2:05 pm

     Regret rates regarding gender confirmation surgery are 1-2%: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

     Regret rates regarding knee surgery are 10%: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4779800/
     • Sabine 7.1.1

       7 November 2022 at 2:08 pm

       maybe if they had their knees amputated – their healthy knees that is – the regret rates for knee surgery would be lower.
       • roy cartland 7.1.1.1

         7 November 2022 at 2:27 pm

         Eh?

         Haven’t you got it backwards? Or have I?
         • Sabine 7.1.1.1.1

           7 November 2022 at 2:52 pm

           Double radical mastectomies on young girls are gender affirming care that will see their healthy boobs amputated and for some detransitioners that will be in issue in the future.

           To make it sound nicer and friendlier the gender medical industry that makes top dollar on such people – young and old – call it 'top surgery', or very orwellian as 'chest contouring'. As some ask, why did no one prevent me from having boobs cut off, my uterus removed and my female hormones replaced by synthetic testesterone. And a lot of the destransitioners are young women in their early 20 who were socially transitioned, puberty blocked (some), and on cross hormones by their mid teens with the life saving sexual organ amputation surgeries added quickly there after. And oops, then they wake up and realise that non of that is reversible, and that they will in many cases be lifelong customers to various pharmaceutical companies for testesterone, and other medications.

           ditto for the boys that wake up and realise they are on their fifth revision of their sexual re-assignement surgery and they still don't have anything even just loosely resembling a 'vagina'. But they all have issues urinating and such. They too are unhappy, the detransitioners.

           But then we don't count the ones that are unhappy, that would be unkind to the happy ones and may make some think a bit harder and further then just 'affirmation is kindness' and YOU want to be KIND!

           So if the knee surgeries on old, crunchy, broken knees result in such high regret I suggest that they try having knee surgeries or amputations – leg contouring or limb surgery would be a good term – on healthy knees to see if they have a lesser regret. After all, its all the same, right?

           Mind best would be to not compare a surgery such as knee operations to removal of uterueses, breasts, penises and scrotums, as clearly other then they being surgeries they have nothing in common. You can still be somewhat mobile with a bung knee, but you will not have sex or children with missing / cut of sexual / reproductive organs.

           But then, i am unkind in my believe that mental illness can not be fixed with amputations and removal of sexual and reproductive organs on children. What adults do with their bits n bobs is their own, and even then the Therapist that sign them off on these surgeries should be making sure that the issue is not other trauma, other mental illness and is indeed a very strong case of Body disphoria / dismorphic disorder to warrant this type of intervention, as adults too experience regret.
           • arkie 7.1.1.1.1.1

             7 November 2022 at 3:16 pm

             Women who have had breast cancer and Post Mastectomy Reconstruction Surgery have a surgery regret rate of 47%: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14768320601124899
             • Molly …

               7 November 2022 at 3:35 pm

               Arkie, women with breast cancer in NZ are initially refused a double mastectomy if it is not considered medically warranted. Even the benefit to the patient of improved mental well-being is not considered – given that they already have a diagnosis of a disease that kills 1 in 5 of the 3500 diagnosed every year within five years.

               There is a marked difference between a surgery for a medically diagnosed disease, and one that is demanded without diagnosis other than self-declaration.

               The cost to the medical system for medical and surgical transition is high, both at initial intervention stage, and later stages. In fact it can be a lifelong requirement for state funded healthcare, for a person who otherwise would not need such care or use of limited resources.
               • arkie …

                 7 November 2022 at 3:43 pm

                 The study I linked to includes full and partial mastectomy patients.

                 The claim that trans individuals get surgical intervention without a diagnosis is incorrect.

                 Everyone needs state funded healthcare, access to it shouldn't be restricted under any circumstance.
                 • Molly …

                   7 November 2022 at 4:04 pm

                   "The claim that trans individuals get surgical intervention without a diagnosis is incorrect."

                   Gender affirming healthcare guidelines by PATHA:

                   https://patha.nz/Guidelines

                   "Autonomy in the context of transgender healthcare involves transgender people being able to able to make informed choices for themselves regarding gender affirming care and being free from experiencing harmful pathologisation and other barriers to accessing this care."

                   "Historically transgender healthcare has suffered from the pathologising of gender diversity and the inappropriate labelling of gender/cultural identity and expression as a diagnosed mental health illness. The resulting legacy of this pathologisation is a tension in health services between the need to avoid further stigmatisation while simultaneously acknowledging the importance of the wider concept of mental health as part of holistic healthcare delivery. The practice of informed consent in relation to gender affirming healthcare is important because it reaffirms the self-determination of the transgender person and their knowledge of their needs, identities, and self. Informed consent enables the health provider to work alongside the transgender person in a flexible and responsive way."
                   • arkie …

                     7 November 2022 at 4:38 pm

                     Post Mastectomy Reconstruction surgery is also a Gender Affirming procedure. One that has far more regret associated with it than GAS for trans people. The focus on trans procedures is disproportionate.

                     The guidelines you have linked to are for Medical Professionals, the ones who provide the diagnoses and referrals needed so that trans people can access medical procedures.
                   • Molly …

                     7 November 2022 at 5:50 pm

                     @arkie.

                     "Post Mastectomy Reconstruction surgery is also a Gender Affirming procedure. "

                     No, arkie.

                     It is – like all non-medically required surgeries – a cosmetic procedure, that follows a clinically indicated mastectomy.

                     Women with breasts or without them don't need further surgery to affirm their sex.

                     The fact that you see reconstruction for breast cancer patients as "gender affirming surgery" is indicative of a poor understanding of women.

                     “The guidelines you have linked to are for Medical Professionals, the ones who provide the diagnoses and referrals needed so that trans people can access medical procedures.”

                     Those guidelines along with those from the source document from WPATH refer to the professionals following the direction of the patient.
                   • arkie …

                     7 November 2022 at 6:09 pm

                     That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

                     But it isn't shared by many breast cancer survivors and medical professionals.
                   • Molly …

                     7 November 2022 at 10:37 pm

                     @arkie.

                     "That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

                     But it isn't shared by many breast cancer survivors and medical professionals."

                     You are still conflating the two to support your poor comparison. Not because it is true.

                     Women don't require "gender affirming surgery", in the same way they don't need "gender affirming hair-extensions", "gender affirming lipstick" etc.

                     They are – and remain – women.
           • Molly 7.1.1.1.1.2

             7 November 2022 at 3:28 pm

             Haven't watched this all the way through, and for those unused to Exulansic – it might be a bit hard going, but the telling part of this video for me is the justifications and equivocating of the medical professionals at Boston Children's Hospital when speaking about transitioning children.

             Putting faith in such ideologues to do the right thing for children is why so much damage will be done. And the ones who will pay the price for this type of evangalism, is the children they are entrusted with.

             https://youtu.be/0JGgxkveUmg
             • Sabine …

               8 November 2022 at 10:55 am

               The doctor speaking of the earning and profitability potential in the revisions of sexual re-assignment surgery is simply chilling. They need a 'lot of after care', indeed they do. Jazz Jennings, very famous Transchild/Transwomen of TLC – the learning channel – is a case in point. They had their bottom surgery done about 4 years ago – by Marica Bowers of all surgeons, and i think they are on re-vision four or five of the initial surgery. Jazz went from healthy young and happy to obese, sick and in constant pain with various doctors doctoring. One can only ever hope for the very best outcome of any of these interventions as the other alternative is just too horrible to contemplate.
       • Incognito 7.1.1.2

         7 November 2022 at 6:21 pm

         Amputation between C2 and C3 has the lowest documented regret rate and highest undocumented patient satisfaction
         • Sacha 7.1.1.2.1

           7 November 2022 at 7:06 pm

           And it's interesting what can be considered gender-affirming surgery if you really think about it.

           https://twitter.com/kaceytron/status/1587454693709602816
           • Incognito 7.1.1.2.1.1

             7 November 2022 at 7:11 pm

             Pulling his hairline down to his lower jaw was a masterpiece of plastic surgery, but in my mind he’s still the cute adorable and slightly awkward Emo Musk.
           • roblogic 7.1.1.2.1.2

             7 November 2022 at 7:14 pm

             Yes, it's unnecessary cosmetic surgery.
     • Molly 7.1.2

       7 November 2022 at 3:22 pm

       The review including literature from transitions made for a completely different demographic than what we are currently seeing, for those who underwent non-affirmation only healthcare. and was limited by the failure of many clinics to do standard follow up of their patients for any extended lengths of time.

       With those limitations it is a poor justification for the affirming healthcare model that psychologically, medically and surgically transitions children and young people. (Let's not even get into the dwindling medical resources, that will be further diminished by the production of lifelong medical patients, who seek to change healthy functioning bodies to a medically and surgically modified one).

       https://www.ebswa.org/post/title-the-communication-of-evidence-to-inform-trans-youth-health-care

       "As a group of psychotherapists working in the area of gender, we have concerns about the arguments and statistics presented in The Lancet Child & Adolescent Health's Editorial.1

       We believe that using the outdated statistic that 1% of people who transition will regret their decision is highly irresponsible, and lacks the rigour for which the Lancet group of journals is known. This 1% refers primarily to studies of adults who transitioned in an era when medical transition was only taken under strict protocol.2 We now find ourselves in a markedly different era, characterised by a 1727% rise in the numbers of children seeking to transition,3 and a gender-affirmative approach, which has been adopted almost universally, making the proffered 1% statistic anachronistic.4 We do not believe puberty blockers are a safe and appropriate option, as supported by a blog by Carl Heneghan and Tom Jefferson,5 especially given that the use of this highly experimental treatment path is being reconsidered by progressive countries in Europe. The Karolinska Institute in Sweden, long considered gold-standard in providing transgender health care, no longer uses puberty blockers;6 nor does Finland promote their use.7 Additionally, a judicial review in the UK found puberty blockers to be an inappropriate option for most children younger than 16 years.8

       We urge The Lancet Child & Adolescent Health to take this opportunity to engage with this issue, rather than publishing, in our opinion, inaccurate and careless Editorials."
8. Anker 8

   7 November 2022 at 1:41 pm

   • Go on Redit. The numbers are in the tens of thousands there. My understanding is that there is strict criteria there.

   Have you read the Cass report Sacha? Have you bothered listen to even one detransitioner story? Seen the women who have had double mastectomies? Are now infertile cause they have had their wombs removed? Did you read the article in Stuff about the Australian woman who is suiong her psychiatrist who pled her having breasts and womb removed?
   • roblogic 8.1

     7 November 2022 at 6:11 pm

     Of course he didn't. Ideological Totalism Left and Right – The Radical Notion

     Transactivists, similarly, believe their right to self-determination is limited only by their imagination — never by anyone else’s rights. Just as Jake Angeli can dress up as a Native American warrior to symbolize the white colonizer’s imaginary right to stolen land, Charlotte Clymer can put on some lipstick and pick up a gold lamé purse in order to lay symbolic claim to a womanhood that exists only in the mind of sexist men. The way to an ‘authentic’ self is not through radical self-acceptance, the rejection of dehumanization, the telling of truth to power, or the building of strong and loving human relationships, but by buying an outside that somehow ‘matches’ your insides.
     • Francesca 8.1.1

       7 November 2022 at 6:37 pm

       That is a really brilliant quote Roblogic
   • roblogic 8.2

     7 November 2022 at 7:01 pm

     Breaks your heart. The medical establishment has been wrecked by TRA bullies threatening the livelihoods of doctors who don't submit to the unquestioning affirmation model. Leading to a predictable rise in transition regret.

     The Victims of Wicked Lies – Public Discourse (thepublicdiscourse.com)
9. Stuart Munro 9

   7 November 2022 at 2:36 pm

   MPI won't do anything real to protect fisheries – but small fishermen can do it without them.
10. Sacha 10

    7 November 2022 at 3:35 pm

    Western Australia's oil-soaked govt gets the Juice Media treatment (4m):
11. Sacha 11

    7 November 2022 at 4:06 pm

    Govt's public media changes are not enough yet: https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/130377959/rnztvnz-bill-does-not-do-enough-to-specify-how-public-funding-is-spent–academic

    The entity needed to have a public service mission written into its legislation so it would not pursue the creation of certain genres – for example, cheap, high-rating reality television – to outcompete other media companies for audiences and advertising revenue, said Dr Peter Thompson, a media expert from Victoria University of Wellington.

    …

    The new entity could be mandated to accept programmes and run them on its platforms, Thompson said. One way to introduce this would be to write in a public service “publisher” role for the entity, in which it would be obliged to distribute its commissioned content.
12. roblogic 12

    7 November 2022 at 6:15 pm

    Nz media organs, sponsored by banks and real estate industry, spreading relentless negative spin. Then pretending butter wouldn't melt in their mouths. Tova is throwing rocks at Labour, ignoring all of its hard work, and giving National a free pass.

    https://twitter.com/TodayFM_nz/status/1589450632515432448?s=20&t=Dx5m6tP620Y83GVfQ2U_uA
13. roblogic 13

    7 November 2022 at 6:16 pm

    The banks, oil co's, supermarket cartels are taking the piss. And the media has everyone blaming the Govt.

    https://twitter.com/MusicalChairs14/status/1589477213531156480?s=20&t=Dx5m6tP620Y83GVfQ2U_uA
14. roblogic 14

    7 November 2022 at 7:12 pm

    More media bias. The bullshit is depressingly obvious to me, but it works on the low information voter who thinks these reporters are their mates.

    https://twitter.com/rugbyintel/status/1589446912503328768?s=20&t=H5zPvTNsx2JU5Ebg5R2umw
    • Stuart Munro 14.1

      8 November 2022 at 10:22 am

      Masterful self-control by Jacinda there – keeping or feigning good humour in the face of a lazy, ignorant, cynical and wrong fake journalist.
15. roblogic 15

    7 November 2022 at 7:55 pm

    Sure, criticise the government. But you're fucking delusional if you think sacking them will fix anything. Please show me the National party policy to control banks, implement CGT, stop inflation etc.

    Don't just give the Natz a free pass. They are proven liars.

    NAct have openly stated their contempt for working people. They only represent the propertied landlord class now.

    Multinational corporations are circling Aotearoa like sharks, and National wants to help them suppress wages, inflate prices, snap up all of our public assets. All for the sake of a quick buck for themselves
    • In Vino 15.1

      7 November 2022 at 8:24 pm

      Absolute agreement on my part, roblogic. My worst fear is that your target audience never read the Standard. Given educational decline, few of them are likely to do any reading at all now..

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