Open mike 08/02/2021

95 comments on “Open mike 08/02/2021 ”

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1. Jester 1

   8 February 2021 at 9:28 am

   No comments yet. Everyone must be having a lie in. I know people on here are very tribal, but I do find today that both Labour and National are very similar and have both moved towards the centre. IMO it almost makes no difference which is the ruling party.
   • JanM 1.1

     8 February 2021 at 10:46 am

     Coming from an education background I can see Labour making moves to unravel the mess that National got it into. Long way to go yet tho!
     • Incognito 1.1.1

       8 February 2021 at 11:10 am

       I don’t think reviewing NZ education curriculum by curriculum is the best approach. For example, a number of NCEA 1 subjects have been dropped but where/when are they now covered, if at all? To me it seems NZ education will continue to muddle through with uncertainty and lack of decisive visionary leadership. ACT is waiting in the wings with Charter Schools, which is no more than a plaster for some and does not address the system as a whole, which is just typical of those liberals.
       • Incognito 1.1.1.1

         8 February 2021 at 11:38 am

         “An unintended consequence of focus on literacy and numeracy in the early 2000s was less time for teacher education in science.”

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/124148144/new-zealand-failing-to-identify-highachieving-science-students-at-school-research-finds

         “We were surprised to find that PAT English and Mathematics tests were one of the key ways high-ability science students were identified,” Moeed says.

         https://educationhq.com/news/schools-are-failing-to-identify-high-ability-science-students-study-90006/

         The age-old problem of using surrogate measures, which in some cases are poor substitutes.

         "In my experience in New Zealand, we are very good at coming up with solutions on a local basis. But identification and provision for equitable access of science education to all high-ability students is needed," says Dr. Moeed.

         https://phys.org/news/2021-02-schools-high-ability-science-students.html

         Indeed, local, ad hoc, reductionist, and aimed at symptoms rather than causes seems to be the ‘pragmatic’ approach here in NZ to many ills & evils. Where are our visionary leaders with deep-thinking skills and broad open minds?
       • millsy 1.1.1.2

         8 February 2021 at 1:56 pm

         I always thought that Charter Schools were set up as a dumping ground for the bottom 20% of pupils.
         • Incognito 1.1.1.2.1

           8 February 2021 at 2:43 pm

           That’s a rather unfortunate way of framing, IMO. Sure, they were tied up with political and ideological agendas and vested interests, but they also tried or claimed to address the issue of the long tail in NZ education. Quite a few people were genuinely supportive and work hard with the best of intentions to make a positive difference. To write them off is doing them and the children a huge disfavour and is unfair, IMHO.
           • millsy 1.1.1.2.1.1

             8 February 2021 at 5:53 pm

             I think the idea was for the state schools to wash their hands of the problem kids and they could be dumped in charters presumably just to be trained to read nothing but the Bible.
             • Incognito …

               8 February 2021 at 5:57 pm

               I believe you’re wrong and misinformed but feel free to find evidence in support. You may want to avoid Bible-bashing, if you can, thanks.
               • In Vino …

                 8 February 2021 at 8:41 pm

                 I rather think it was the other way round, Millsy. Charter schools would take lower decile students, and prove that state schools were failing these students, by making successes of them. They then tried to carefully cherry-pick lower decile students who would succeed anyway, but didn't quite do it right, and had to then quietly get rid of obvious upcoming failures.. They then found it was not so bloody easy to teach then anyway, so very few of the Charter Schools achieved anything like the superiority over the state system that they had claimed.
     • Herodotus 1.1.2

       8 February 2021 at 11:51 am

       And where did our “Tomorrow’s Schools” review go ?? And now we have Haque now informing us that there are issues, we’ll sh@$ you are leading the eduction reviews Ffs lead.

       we have had this century 4+ terms of a labour led government , that is now a 2nd generation being impacted from inaction and a race to the bottom. But keep on wishing, as every day you wish for action our children are missing out
       • millsy 1.1.2.1

         8 February 2021 at 1:59 pm

         Well people like you were horrified at the idea of schools collaborating and getting proper support so the government backed down.

         The wealthier schools like AGC, Rangitoto, etc depend on the poorer schools failing
         • Herodotus 1.1.2.1.1

           8 February 2021 at 2:38 pm

           I did not realise that I was so powerful- And schools already collaborate in not only this local area but other areas where family members teach.

           Next time don't make sh^& up by making comments directed at me of something I have never said. But then if it suits your argument be like an Orange man in making things up.
           • millsy 1.1.2.1.1.1

             8 February 2021 at 4:30 pm

             You are on record as opposing any effort to stop schools competing, and bring back the education boards.

             I would trust a public servant over a Karen any day in terms of running a school.

             [You made a specific assertion about another commenter here. Please back it up with a link(s) or withdraw and apologise, thanks, or cop a ban – Incognito]

             [Two weeks off for not backing up your allegations about another commenter or not withdrawing & apologising – Incognito]
             • Herodotus …

               8 February 2021 at 5:18 pm

               Don't go fishing – Where is there any commentary by me that supports your comments ??

               I gather you don't have any. There has been recently many occasions where commentators have been ask under threats of time in the corner for making unlinked comments as yours.

               Put up then, without resorting to cheep name calling.
             • weka …

               8 February 2021 at 5:44 pm

               a Karen? Please don't bring that politically dodgy term here. Just use a few more words to say what you mean.
             • Incognito …

               8 February 2021 at 5:55 pm

               See my Moderation note @ 4:30 PM.
               • In Vino …

                 8 February 2021 at 8:43 pm

                 Millsy has the wrong end of the stick again. I do not believe that Herodotus is opposed to schools collaborating. Maybe he upset Millsy by arguing against some aspect back when National introduced a superficial policy of that type..
                 • Incognito …

                   8 February 2021 at 9:09 pm

                   Thanks but it is for millsy to front up or come clean. Let’s see what millsy is made of otherwise millsy will be marching.
             • Incognito …

               10 February 2021 at 10:06 pm

               See my second Moderation note @ 4:30 PM.
     • JanM 1.1.3

       8 February 2021 at 12:18 pm

       The rot actually starts in Early Childhood Education which was given over to private enterprise with the predictable consequences. If you don't get it right there the rest is built on a very shaky foundation
2. Barfly 2

   8 February 2021 at 9:43 am

   Well speaking as someone on the bottom of the financial pile there is a lot of difference. Labour's increase to core benefits plus the winter warmth payment and the end of the beneficiary hunting season has been a great help to me.
   (meant as a reply to Jester)
   • Sabine 2.1

     8 February 2021 at 11:12 am

     But all that shows is that benefits core base should be way higher so that no supplementals – heating allowance, accom benefit, hard ship grants etc- are needed in the first place. And that was categorically ruled out before the second term. So that is it. The sum total of 6 years when all is set and done, a heating payment and a wee bit of an increase that does not hold up with anything. I don't say that it is not a bit better, on a scale of 1 – 10 you are 1 bit better off then you were before.

     So this is again an exercise in doing nothing much where it is needed, and with the next government come in the supplementals like the heating allowance can just simply be canned and thus nothing was achieved other then a few drops on a hot stone for a few years.

     In the meantime more people homeless, more people unemployed (well women people, people of color, other abled people, white men – as per the stats of the government are doing well), house prices even more unaffordable then they were 4 years ago, rents more unaffordable then they were 4 years ago, water, electricity and food up.

     This is not to diminish that what little was done is to a benefit to you and others on a benefit, that personally is great, but it was no more then a drip on a hot stone.

     And thus, there really is no real difference between the Nats and the Labs, and i would venture a guess that the 25 NZD benefit raise (core benefit) under Nat also would have helped a bit in the moment but as with Labours peanuts it changed nothing long term. Too little, in most cases to late, is just that, too little to late.
     • Barfly 2.1.1

       8 February 2021 at 12:01 pm

       The Nats benefit raise WAS ONLY TO SOME BENEFITS not all – Job Seekers and Supported Living GOT NOTHING.
       • Incognito 2.1.1.1

         8 February 2021 at 12:07 pm

         Using capitals is considered shouting on-line and using bold font makes it worse (and might be confused with Moderation here).

         Please consider using italics when you want to emphasise something. For example:

         The Nats benefit raise was only to some benefits not all – Job Seekers and Supported Living got nothing.

         FIFY
         • Barfly 2.1.1.1.1

           8 February 2021 at 1:06 pm

           Apologies for shouting – I was feeling angry at the suggestion that the increases of Labour and National were similar. – Also forgot the reduced Doctor's charges
           • Incognito 2.1.1.1.1.1

             8 February 2021 at 1:11 pm

             I totally understand. It is because sometimes it can create ‘bad vibes’.
           • Patricia Bremner 2.1.1.1.1.2

             8 February 2021 at 5:28 pm

             Hi Barfly, I agree!! There are times when righteous drivel and pro Nat anti Labour is reason to shout.
         • weka 2.1.1.1.2

           8 February 2021 at 1:14 pm

           sometimes it's appropriate to shout I think, although should be used rarely. In this instance, regulars on TS have been repeatedly told that National's benefit raise was for only some beneficiaries. Shouting sometimes gets the message through (or at least gives some sense that it might).

           I agree that general use of bold is annoying for moderation.
       • weka 2.1.1.2

         8 February 2021 at 12:08 pm

         sad that beneficiaries have to keep yelling about this. Glad the Labour changes have made some difference for you Barfly
       • Sabine 2.1.1.3

         8 February 2021 at 12:26 pm

         And not every one on the benefit have equally benefitted from changes under Labour.

         The point is not to minimize what changes have been made, my friend is very happy with her heating allowance, her reduced doctors bills etc. But still every few month she is at the office – virtually – so to speak asking for help with some bills because it is not enough.

         Same as it was not enough with National.

         So my issue is not with 'who is being more generous' with the pennies that are being dispensed but my issue is that both sides are 'stingy beyond believe and need' with the pennies that they dispense.

         By comparing two mediocre responses to a huge problem in our society, we are actually not discussing the need that exists, but rather the trickle down responses to it.
         • weka 2.1.1.3.1

           8 February 2021 at 12:32 pm

           there's a problem with saying there is no difference between National and Labour. It's factually incorrect in important ways. And it discourages the underclass from being politically active to effect change.
           • Sabine 2.1.1.3.1.1

             8 February 2021 at 12:42 pm

             Well see i don't think it is factually incorrect.

             Both increased rates, to some extend. Both have not done enough. The labour party has campaigned on not doing anything else for beneficiaries and got voted in on this promise among others – those dear cross over fiscal conservatives votes came in handy winning an all out majority..

             So yes, in my personal opinion, they are both the same when it comes to increasing the benefits of all beneficiaries to such an extend that it would be at the very lest 480.00 per week (covid relieve for full timer after tax). Missing in action and hiding behind meaningless feel good rethoric.

             The need is still there and raising. Both Parties for the longest time have failed. Both parties do nothing more then tinker on the edges – both parties do this to the extend that they need to not upset the people whose vote they want.

             As for the underclass……we have 1 million people that don't vote, and not all of them are underclass. And quite a few of the underclass will not vote for Labour or Green or any other left leaning party because conservative / religious/ libertarian etc. I would not consider the 'underclass' a monolithic voting block that will vote reflexively for a so called social leaning party.
   • Herodotus 2.2

     8 February 2021 at 11:43 am

     So you are happy to tip your cap to the government for reluctantly giving you some chump change For your total deviation and loyalty ?
     when should it be determined that much govt handouts are inadequate then address the real issue. Hope you spend the 40 pieces of silver wisely.

     Be it housing, poverty, inequality etc Labour only dish out the min, IF THAT🥵
     • Barfly 2.2.1

       8 February 2021 at 11:57 am

       Last winter that chump change was $65 a week maybe that's chump change to you – I found it pretty helpful – I remember well the National government – the threats ,the promises of crackdowns , the continued demonisation of those least able to defend themselves (me included). The only structural change I remember was reducing the maximum length of a Doctor's medical Certificate from 5 years to 2 years – great stuff to increase the level of fear and uncertainty among the long term mentally ill
     • weka 2.2.2

       8 February 2021 at 12:13 pm

       seriously, you're calling beneficiaries spending what little the government give them a bribe for betrayal? We all know what Labour is doing is not enough, but that's not he fault of beneficiaries who are grateful for the relief.
       • Incognito 2.2.2.1

         8 February 2021 at 12:15 pm

         Yup, it smelled of bad faith but was probably just extremely poorly worded.
         • weka 2.2.2.1.1

           8 February 2021 at 12:19 pm

           the generous interpretation is that he didn't think about what forty pieces of silver means.
           • Sacha 2.2.2.1.1.1

             8 February 2021 at 12:36 pm

             the chosen handle suggests otherwise.
             • arkie …

               8 February 2021 at 12:51 pm

               Must be because of inflation.
               • Drowsy M. Kram …

                 8 February 2021 at 12:53 pm

                 
               • Herodotus …

                 8 February 2021 at 2:03 pm

                 Put my hand up there and own my mistake. 30 not 40 ☹️
           • Herodotus 2.2.2.1.1.2

             8 February 2021 at 12:50 pm

             I will spell this out for you, that I have commented many time before.

             If there is a problem fix it, if benefits are not adequate increase them. What this and other governments do is add ons. But NOT addressing the issue directly.

             Those in need, after the tokenism are less in need. But has their needs been fully met ? Less Poor is STILL Poor. Those in less Need are still in need 🤬
             • Sabine …

               8 February 2021 at 12:54 pm

               +1
             • weka …

               8 February 2021 at 1:00 pm

               dude, I'm a politicised long term beneficiary. I know what the state of play is. Reread my comment. Beneficiaries are entitled to feel relieved and even grateful when their income increases, esp those that have been struggling to eat properly, get medical care, look after their kids.
               • Herodotus …

                 8 February 2021 at 1:40 pm

                 Try this from the Greens commenting on Nationals deficient increases in benefits in 2016 – Same can now be applied to this government. So where are The Greens now and that their government has "Not" ensured that every family got the help they need. But hey, they should be grateful for the little they are given. That will fix this

                 “If the Government really cared about helping children living in families on the breadline, it would have ensured every child in every family got the help they need. Instead it chose to do the bare minimum,” Ms Logie said.

                 https://www.greens.org.nz/half-families-denied-full-benefit-increase
                 • weka …

                   8 February 2021 at 1:48 pm

                   1. It's not the Greens' govt. It's a Labour majority govt, and the Greens are once again still largely locked out of having input on welfare. Talk to Labour voters about that, not me.

                   2. I've long argued against the child poverty approach politically because it separates beneficiaries into deserving and undeserving poor. Children are innocent and should be fed, ill and disabled adults can get fucked. Not that advocates see it like that, but they are buying into dangerous framing that National uses against us.
                   • Herodotus …

                     8 February 2021 at 2:01 pm

                     It is not The Greens Govt – But where is their response now to Labours inadequate increases, and why are so many that were vocal now not so ? As you said TG have been locked out so why not comment ?

                     As what has been done in increasing benefits does not ensure that every child gets the help… Perhaps they 2 were gifted 30 pieces for their silence or some offices of power? And as Sabine has stated what is the difference ?? or perhaps, The Greens don't benchmark their statements that had been made towards national and apply them now. Just thinking out loud 😉
                   • weka …

                     8 February 2021 at 2:18 pm

                     https://www.greens.org.nz/economic_windfall_should_be_funnelled_straight_back_into_communities
                   • weka …

                     8 February 2021 at 2:20 pm

                     no, you're just making shit up. So sick of this bullshit too. Been hearing it for decades, and it never pans out. They consistently step up and do what is needed, including holding Labour to account.
                 • Sabine …

                   8 February 2021 at 2:18 pm

                   To be fair, they said this in 2019

                   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/07/greens-call-out-labour-over-failure-to-increase-benefits.html

                   The Greens won't go as far as to say Labour's breached the agreement, but Green Party spokesperson for social development Jan Logie said the overhaul promised "should include a well overdue increase to the benefit."

                   he increased pressure on Labour comes after a dramatic surge in the number of grants issued to low-income New Zealanders for basic needs like food and accommodation.

                   The welfare figures for July show hardship grants for basic needs like food and accommodation have increased to nearly half-a-million – from 267,244 in June 2017 to 487,539 in June 2019.

                   The majority of grants were for food, which have increased by 100,000 since the coalition Government was elected. Spending on emergency housing grants has doubled to $66m in the same timeframe.

                   The Greens say the increase in grants is down to benefits that are too low to meet the cost of living.

                   The Government indexed benefits to the average wage in Budget 2019, meaning they will increase in line with wages. That'll mean benefits increase by an extra $10 to $17 a week by 2023. The Greens say indexing benefits "does not represent an overhaul of the welfare system."

                   "It will not result in any more money for almost a year which clearly doesn't reflect the urgency of this situation," Logie said.

                   Minister for Social Development Carmel Sepuloni told Newshub the indexation is "just a part of the overhaul of the system".

                   In the meantime Jan Logie and/ or the Green Party is/are still correct in the assessment that the hardship grants are just a window to the obviouis, the main benefits are not high enough, and that is ongoing as per the government owns stats.

                   https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/benefit/2020/benefit-fact-sheets/benefit-fact-sheets-snapshot-december-2020.pdf Page 8

                   Hardship assistance:

                   A total of 634,207 hardship assistance payments, worth $215,069,392 were granted during the December 2020 quarter.

                   These figures are higher than the hardship assistance granted during the December 2019 quarter, when there were 573,851 hardship assistance payments worth $165,380,115.

                   Hardship assistance includes, but is not limited to: Special Needs Grants (SNGs), Benefit Advances (ADVs) and Recoverable Assistance Payments (RAPs). These forms of assistance are designed to help people who have immediate needs. The numbers reported for hardship assistance granted are sums of grants granted within the December quarter (i.e. 1 October to 31 December). Hardship assistance contains all ages data, rather than working-age only (i.e. 18 to 64).

                   Special Needs Grants:

                   The number of Special Needs Grants granted was 51,468 higher during the December 2020 quarter when compared with the same period last year.

                   The value of grants granted increased from $88,815,126 during the December 2019 quarter to $130,770,852 during the December 2020 quarter.

                   A Special Needs Grant provides non-taxable, one-off recoverable or non-recoverable financial assistance for people to meet immediate needs. A person does not need to be receiving a main benefit to be eligible for a Special Needs

                   TheGreens are not currently in the position to do much.

                   Fwiw, this is Labours and only Labours failure. They knew that the benefits were to short, lowly, miserly already when Key replaced Clark, and nothing has changed since. Their failure to stand up to the voting public in Sept /Oct and take some risk in what was a won election from the onset is what makes them mediocre and not much different from the Nats in my opinion. No guts, no glory.

                   And thus eventually they arrive at the position of 'i have tried nothing and everything failed, what else could i have possibly done'. Well you could have campaigned on raising the benefit levels for all, remove the unemployment benefits from relationship status, and finally admit that children are poor in this country because their parents are poor, or have fallen into poverty. Just a few suggestions.
                   • Herodotus …

                     8 February 2021 at 3:30 pm

                     Ok I accept that Greens have made comments of wanting more.

                     My comments have migrated away from the main point – Inadequate support.
         • WeTheBleeple 2.2.2.1.2

           8 February 2021 at 2:21 pm

           Comes across as bitter and with an axe to grind. $25 plus $40 pw winter payments (for a 6 month duration) is not insignificant at all.

           Prior to increase a base rate of around $202 in the hand.

           Add $45 per week.

           That's over 20% more in the hand. Also, state house tenants not living in fear of evictions, market rents, P-tests, drug tests, doxing etc as National like to do. So what's Sabine's deal other than grinding an axe. Poor people know there's a clear difference between Labour and National. Sure, Labour could do more. To say they're the same is some fanciful bullshit.
           • weka 2.2.2.1.2.1

             8 February 2021 at 2:28 pm

             I'd add that with Labour there's the chance of good change, because they're at least facing in the right direction. National were going as fast as they could get away with in NZ down the proto-fascist pathway and beneficiaries were one of the front lines with that. Bill English's big data plans were horrendous. The Bennett Reforms were neoliberal punitive welfare on steroids. Labour have done some shit stuff, National took it to a whole new level. Ardern's Labour look to me like they're not going to do enough (thanks Labour voters), but they're not doing nothing and they're certainly not taking us in the direction that National were.
           • Incognito 2.2.2.1.2.2

             8 February 2021 at 2:35 pm

             Comes across as bitter and with an axe to grind.

             I couldn’t possibly comment.
     • Patricia Bremner 2.2.3

       8 February 2021 at 5:32 pm

       Herodotus @ 2.2 "Total deviation?" Devotion? Your biblical reference to coin…. Try some kindness, doesn't cost a bean.
3. Anne 3

   8 February 2021 at 10:44 am

   Thanks Incognito.

   It pretty much confirms the suspicion I've always had that the women were trading off the abuse claims. Assange comes across to me as repulsive, but the woman who wrote the book invited him to stay with her, knowing pretty much what he was like. She has acknowledged she wanted to have sex with the man.

   In terms of the allegations, it seems like it was a bit of a storm in a tea cup. Most women would accept they were partly to blame by encouraging the person in the first place, and hopefully move on having learnt from the experience.

   As far as the "shit storms" over the case… I think some of it is identity politics taken too far. Now lets wait for the shit fight to begin. 😉
4. Andre 4

   8 February 2021 at 11:13 am

   Not exactly on topic, but I'll be watching with interest what happens with Assange's extradition case once Merrick Garland gets confirmed as Attorney General.

   Garland's history is fairly strong on the press having a right to publish, and Biden seems to have evolved from his 2010 views calling Assange a high-tech terrorist. So I'm kinda hopeful for the extradition to be dropped along with a statement that press freedom to publish is such an important right that the extradition case should never have been brought.
5. weka 5

   8 February 2021 at 12:18 pm

   not sure what the point in posting that is. It's a fairly useless piece of reporting, and posting it here will open up TS for another round of rape culture denial. See Anne's comment below. So sick of this shit, and at a time when there's barely any feminist presence on TS, it just ends up being echo chamber affirmation of the status quo around women and sexual assault.
6. Robert Guyton 6

   8 February 2021 at 12:47 pm

   We need hedgerows, now!

   https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/02/reservoirs-of-life-hedgerows-help-uk-net-zero-2050-aoe
   • Sabine 6.1

     8 February 2021 at 12:55 pm

     hazelnut and almonds make good hedgerows and they produce food.
     • JanM 6.1.1

       8 February 2021 at 2:13 pm

       He he that reminds me of a story. Back in the 80s a friend of mine was on the Ponsonby Community Committee and the subject of street trees came up. My friend suggested planting fruit trees. The response from one woman was that you couldn't do that because the children might eat the fruit! Ponsonby was in the process of being gentrified at the time so was slowly being infested with the 'upwardly mobile'
       • Sabine 6.1.1.1

         8 February 2021 at 2:21 pm

         Yes, i used to live in Grey Lynn when first moving to AKL. And gosh, there were boxes of free fruit out on Williamson Ave from the private houses. Now they mostly have rock gardens and house chartered accountants.

         I plant fruit trees with a vengance. Its my great hobby.
         • Robert Guyton 6.1.1.1.1

           8 February 2021 at 2:56 pm

           Hedgerows could be a green and sappy venous system for the body landscape for all NZ. Insects, birds, fungi and bipedal walkers could flow from place to place, sheltered and fed all the way. Hamlets might form at the intersections and foot-traffic take its rightful place as the preferred form of travel. News might travel by hedgerow rather than wire or fibre, story-tellers in Lincoln green could….hang on! Anyone read Riddley Walker???
           • JanM 6.1.1.1.1.1

             8 February 2021 at 3:06 pm

             No but it sounds wonderful like Beatrix Potter
             • Robert Guyton …

               8 February 2021 at 3:52 pm

               Beatrix Potter?

               Best you don't get yourself a copy then 🙂
               • JanM …

                 8 February 2021 at 4:40 pm

                 Beatrix Potter for grown – ups?
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   8 February 2021 at 7:56 pm

                   
           • Sabine 6.1.1.1.1.2

             8 February 2021 at 3:21 pm

             The roads in between make for good tracktor roads if they are a shared commodity and also allow for walking/cycling as a form of transport. As someone who used to cycle a lot this is the one thing that i miss, the old tracktor/walking/pilgrimage roads that often times have at least on one side a hedgerow growing.
             • Sacha …

               9 February 2021 at 12:09 pm

               bustling hedgerows
               • Andre …

                 9 February 2021 at 12:37 pm

                 … and spring cleaning may queens …
           • bwaghorn 6.1.1.1.1.3

             8 February 2021 at 6:04 pm

             Hi I'm a time traveler from the 1700s that the hanky to return to . Most of us were dead by 40 and we were ruled by feudal cunts ,take it from me you are much better off now.
             • Robert Guyton …

               8 February 2021 at 7:55 pm

               It seems that way, Time Traveller, but if I may ask: did your activities in the 17 hundreds bring the natural world to the brink of collapse? It's kind of a pressing issue for us in the 20-20's and it may be that our own children and grandchildren will have far shorter lives even, than yours. All the best with your mission.
               • bwaghorn …

                 9 February 2021 at 6:18 am

                 We were well on our way, look forward for your answers not backwards.

                 Only a small % of people would want a quaint life.
             • McFlock …

               8 February 2021 at 7:58 pm

               To be fair, that rough life expectancy was skewed by a massive infant mortality rate that wasn't the fault of hedgerows. It wasn't exactly unheard of to get to your 70s or 80s even in those days.
               • bwaghorn …

                 9 February 2021 at 12:28 pm

                 My point is RG s dream of the world becoming a small holding utopia, it's a pointless dream that helps not one bit with modern day problems, you can lump the whole power down mob in there to . Imho
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   9 February 2021 at 1:33 pm

                   It's an intriguing approach – to belittle and dismiss the efforts of one who is trialling alternative solutions to the 'pickle' of modern day problems. All civilisations fail – spaceship Earth simply can't sustain the one we've crafted – we (all) need to make changes.

                   It's prudent to work on improving societal resilience in order to retain at least some of the privileges that ‘the golden billion‘ enjoy. Imho.

                   The Public Will Never Go For That! [8 Feb 2021]
                   Which story do you think most business leaders and citizens have chosen to believe? The one that says there’s still time, that we can “solve” the problem if, if, if only, and that we can get where we need to get by painless baby steps. Starting in five years.

                   But they [climate scientists] told me there was another reason they didn’t say what they really believed, what they really knew, in public. And that was that they were afraid that a dire message that told people they had to make drastic changes in their own lifestyles, and major sacrifices, now, would simply be unacceptable to their audiences. They would not be invited back. They would be discounted as crazies, alarmists. People would simply not listen. People only want to hear reassurances, comforts, good news. Even if it’s untrue.

                   Now, to me, that’s defeatism. It indicates a failure to appreciate that throughout history people have been willing to make huge changes to the way they live, if everyone else is willing (perhaps with some cajoling) to do their part, too. And that’s the rub. We have given up believing in the potential for large-scale collective action in the public good. We have given up on each other.

                   That’s dreadfully understandable. Self-interested corporatists, conservatives and their media use the public will never go for that as a club to beat down any suggestion that large-scale collective action is possible. The public will never go for medicare for all. The public will never agree to make sacrifices to mitigate climate change. The public will never give up their guns, their cars, their vacation flights, to reduce needless deaths, global warming, or the spread of a pandemic.

                   The problem is, we don’t know that that’s true. Many countries have medicare for all, and have made major sacrifices for the benefit of all their citizens, including, if reluctantly, in New Zealand, Australia, Taiwan and other countries that have beaten CoVid-19 and long ago returned to near-normal lives.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   9 February 2021 at 2:09 pm

                   Harsh, bwaghorn, harsh!

                   Still, I'm undeterred by your misreading of my views 🙂

                   "Small holding utopia"?

                   Nah.

                   I see adaptation no matter where "you" are, no matter what you're doing.

                   It's a cultural thing – our present culture is not proving sustainable, so we (all) must change. Sticking to our guns will leave us … stuck to our guns.
7. Robert Guyton 7

   9 February 2021 at 2:12 pm

   Who dobbed-in the leader of Te Path Maori, for not wearing a tie in the House???
   • Sacha 7.1

     9 February 2021 at 2:25 pm

     Bishop? or someone similarly petty
     • Robert Guyton 7.1.1

       9 February 2021 at 2:34 pm

       Could be any (of them) 🙂
     • Incognito 7.1.2

       9 February 2021 at 3:31 pm

       Bishop is trying to tie a noose around Mallard’s neck.
       • Sacha 7.1.2.1

         9 February 2021 at 5:28 pm

         Isn't 'colonial noose' a great term for it..
       • Robert Guyton 7.1.2.2

         9 February 2021 at 9:58 pm

         Did Dunne wear neck or bow?
         • Sacha 7.1.2.2.1

           9 February 2021 at 10:14 pm

           https://twitter.com/Publicwrongs/status/1359058689647284227
         • Incognito 7.1.2.2.2

           9 February 2021 at 10:26 pm

           All I can remember is the coiffure.
         • Incognito 7.1.2.2.3

           9 February 2021 at 10:30 pm

           You’d be ok in Parliament though, you can hide anything underneath that magnificent beard, you could even go unbuttoned
           • Robert Guyton 7.1.2.2.3.1

             10 February 2021 at 7:12 am

             I'd love to see more and bigger beards in the House. Most people think "patriarchy" when they see a substantial beard, but in fact, cascading beards reflect a growing feminine aspect; it's far more common to see long, curling locks on a the head of a woman than it is a man and the increased sensitivity to breeze, bramble-snagging and tugs by grandchildren help develop a more aware human; think buzz-cut American grunt as compared with fully-tressed 70's hippie from the cast of Hair 🙂
   • bwaghorn 7.2

     9 February 2021 at 9:31 pm

     Mallard is being a goose. He could easily say it looks like a tie to me.
     • Incognito 7.2.1

       9 February 2021 at 9:46 pm

       Hard to tell under that big hat.
     • weka 7.2.2

       9 February 2021 at 11:08 pm

       yep, seems an odd path for Mallard to have taken, can't make sense of it tbh.
       • Morrissey 7.2.2.1

         10 February 2021 at 7:36 am

         In fact, Mallard has form in this area. Soon after Brash's infamous Orewa speech, the Clark regime made the strategic decision to ease back on its support for Māori. This would apparently make the bigots who comprised Brash's base think twice, and appreciate that Labour was not "too P.C."

         Clark could not be seen to lower herself to such dodgy behaviour, so Mallard was given the role of attack dog. One of the most unpleasant things he did was to publicly complain about the length of pōwhiri at parliamentary and other functions. That won him praise from people like Paul Holmes and Sean Plunket, but there is no evidence that the racists abandoned National and rushed to Labour. This disastrous reset in Labour policy culminated in Clark making her contemptuous statements about the Foreshore and Seabed protestors—"I'd rather meet Shrek the Sheep," she intoned, mirthlessly.
8. Jester 8

   9 February 2021 at 10:45 pm

   Looks like Chris Bishop is not the only person gunning for Mallard.

   Barry Soper: Failure to hold Trevor Mallard to account shows Labour's hypocrisy – NZ Herald
   • Incognito 8.1

     9 February 2021 at 10:53 pm

     No matter how hard they rub off on each other, they’ll never create an original spark, only fricative hot air.
   • Muttonbird 8.2

     9 February 2021 at 10:57 pm

     It's pretty clear the man who was making a nuisance of himself and who Mallard outed is a good mate of Soper's.

     Barry sees nothing wrong in chasing much younger women and I suspect our man in parliament is cut from the same cloth.
     • Jester 8.2.1

       9 February 2021 at 11:08 pm

       Yep I agree. I have always thought that Soper knows the person very well and is a friend.

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