Open mike 08/05/2024

113 comments on “Open mike 08/05/2024 ”

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1. ianmac 1

   8 May 2024 at 9:42 am

   So that is where the Reading "Reform" came from!

   The Government’s education policy reform has striking parallels to those put forward by researcher Michael Johnston and right-wing think tank the New Zealand Initiative.

   A single mandated "Reform" is not a good plan for teaching kids to read. The full article is not available yet from Newsroom but is usually opened up in a day or so.

   https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/05/08/meet-the-man-behind-the-governments-education-policy/?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=b160c99eea-Daily_Briefing+08.05.2024&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-b160c99eea-95522477&mc_cid=b160c99eea&mc_eid=88a3081e75
   • SPC 1.1

     8 May 2024 at 10:13 am

     Emeritus Professor James Chapman,

     https://www.liftingliteracyaotearoa.org.nz/blog/abandon-our-literacy-myth

     The Ministerial Advisory Group, led by Dr Johnston, will review the curricula and teaching methods to provide teachers with the clarity and tools needed to teach these core subjects effectively. Dr Johnston will lead a world-class team, including literacy expert Emeritus Professor James Chapman, mathematician Distinguished Professor Gaven Martin and curriculum design expert Professor Elizabeth Rata. Work will be done in the first half of 2024, ready for implementation in 2025.

     https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2312/S00172/new-zealand-initiative-celebrates-senior-fellow-michael-johnstons-appointment-as-chair-of-ministerial-advisory-group.htm
     • ianmac 1.1.1

       8 May 2024 at 12:02 pm

       James Chapman has been labouring on about phonics for close on 40 years inspite of evidence against full on phonics
       • Belladonna 1.1.1.1

         8 May 2024 at 1:00 pm

         Can you cite any evidence against 'full on phonics'

         Because there is 40 years of credible research showing that the 'balanced literacy' approach, beloved on the MoE, delivers significantly worse outcomes for kids struggling to read.

         This is a new article – but provides links to scientific research,which you could follow through, if you want to educate yourself.

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/122697726/advisor-under-fire-as-literacy-group-says-reading-programme-failing-children

         Yes some kids learn to read using balanced literacy – these are the kids who will learn to read under just about any circumstance – and often are self-starters who learn without any formal teaching. They will also learn to read using phonics-based instruction.
   • Traveller 1.2

     8 May 2024 at 10:35 am

     " Structured literacy isn’t just a passing trend; it’s firmly grounded in research and evidence-based practices. Studies conducted in recent years have highlighted its effectiveness in teaching reading, particularly to individuals with dyslexia and other learning challenges (Shaywitz, 2018). This evidence-backed approach has caught the attention of educators and stakeholders who are searching for proven methods to enhance literacy outcomes. "

     "Across the globe, concerns are mounting over literacy levels among both children and adults. Structured literacy emerges as a promising solution to this literacy crisis. Recent research has highlighted its effectiveness in addressing the diverse needs of learners, fostering a culture of literacy excellence in schools and beyond (Kilpatrick, 2019). "

     Unlocking Literacy: The Rise of Structured Literacy in Education – Cognition Education
     • Stephen D 1.2.1

       8 May 2024 at 10:47 am

       Structured literacy emerges as a promising solution to this literacy crisis

       So not actually proven, then.

       From my limited (20years+) teaching experience, one size does NOT fit all.
       • SPC 1.2.1.1

         8 May 2024 at 11:23 am

         Is it not the most inclusive approach (albeit including more of the complexity of language)?

         So long as the remedial backup can cover those who find this all too much …
         • Stephen D 1.2.1.1.1

           8 May 2024 at 12:47 pm

           What remedial backup? The govt is cutting funding for things like support staff.
           • SPC 1.2.1.1.1.1

             8 May 2024 at 1:28 pm

             Reading recovery is done by teachers.
           • SPC 1.2.1.1.1.2

             8 May 2024 at 1:56 pm

             And not only cutting support staff it is "actually" also ending the reading recovery programme – betting the house on the change working without any back up.

             I missed this

             https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/05/stanford-confirms-end-of-reading-recovery-programme-in-schools-doesn-t-rule-out-job-losses.html
             • Belladonna …

               8 May 2024 at 3:16 pm

               Reading Recovery is throwing the same teaching model (which has already demonstratedly not worked) to the student – just in a one-on-one environment.

               Actually changing the teaching model is a much better solution (and allocation of resources).
               • SPC …

                 8 May 2024 at 3:52 pm

                 I'll pick that there will be a reading recovery programme of some sort for those not keeping up with the class …

                 Some will then say, we should have had it from the get go.
                 • Belladonna …

                   8 May 2024 at 5:01 pm

                   If it's a phonics based reading recovery – you might have an argument. But the current one achieves very little at considerable cost.

                   Actually better to invest the money in teaching properly from the beginning.
                   • SPC …

                     8 May 2024 at 5:07 pm

                     There will always be those who need help catching up.

                     Not providing for that is part of the arrogance of system change.

                     And the one on one teaching should be premised on the way the individual can best learn/be taught to understand.
       • Traveller 1.2.1.2

         8 May 2024 at 1:13 pm

         Did you not read the first quote?

         " Structured literacy isn’t just a passing trend; it’s firmly grounded in research and evidence-based practices. Studies conducted in recent years have highlighted its effectiveness in teaching reading, particularly to individuals with dyslexia and other learning challenges (Shaywitz, 2018). This evidence-backed approach has caught the attention of educators and stakeholders who are searching for proven methods to enhance literacy outcomes. "

         Unlocking Literacy: The Rise of Structured Literacy in Education – Cognition Education

         And then there's this:

         Structured literacy provides solid foundations – Education Gazette

         One size may not fit all, but what we have been doing has failing, and structured literacy is an evidence based, proven solution.
         • Ed1 1.2.1.2.1

           8 May 2024 at 3:26 pm

           There have been arguments about different approaches to "teaching reading" since the 1970's. A specialist reading teacher told me that either of the two main methods worked well, but neither would cover all children, and sometimes one would be better at different ages / maturity. From memory (and I hope someone corrects this if it is wrong), one method concentrates on whole words, another on the sound of individual letters or letter groups. Regardless of teaching method, children benefit from being read stories by their parents – by seeing reading as enjoyable, and by being able to look at the book while being read to and relate to pictures and in due course written words. We have much better understanding of learning difficulties which individual children have; and they arise from a range of reasons, including different ways in which their brains develop and understanding at different ages, as well as exposure to reading in the home. Poverty can affect school success, and there is no doubt that we are more divided economically than we were pre-Muldoon. Ideally teachers should be aware of mental developments that link to certain stages of reading / understanding, and are able to give at least a small amount of individual time to each child to assess how they are learning as well as measuring progress. Simple measurements without appropriate analysis can lead to wrong conclusions.
           • Traveller 1.2.1.2.1.1

             8 May 2024 at 4:13 pm

             The standard of literacy in NZ has deteriorated significantly over recent decades, and we have to act to address that decline. During the formative years of my children's education, literacy teaching generally followed a whole language approach ((PDF) Incorporating phonics within a New Zealand whole language programme (researchgate.net)), about which James Chapman, Professor Emeritus of Educational Psychology at Massey University wrote:

             "The whole language approach has been discredited by scientific studies of literacy for nearly four decades. Extensive research shows that achievement in reading depends on two processes: the ability to recognise the words in text accurately and quickly, and the use of language skills such as vocabulary and syntax. (see, Tunmer & Hoover: https://doi.org/10.1080/19404158.2019.1614081). Progress in learning to read words requires the ability to translate letters and letter patterns into phonological forms (i.e., letter-sound relationships). This enables beginning readers to develop sight word knowledge, which in turn frees up cognitive resources to focus on sentence meaning." Abandon our Literacy Myth — Lifting Literacy Aotearoa

             It seems clear a return to structured literacy is long overdue.
   • Dolomedes III 1.3

     8 May 2024 at 6:18 pm

     "The Government’s education policy reform has striking parallels to those put forward by researcher Michael Johnston and right-wing think tank the New Zealand Initiative."

     So what does that prove? Is the NZ Institute necessarily wrong about everything because it's "right-wing"?

     What is your substantive objection to structured literacy? What is the evidence against it?
2. Anne 2

   8 May 2024 at 10:09 am

   What is this country coming to:

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/516147/watch-elderly-woman-knocked-to-the-ground-in-unprovoked-attack

   Some entitled bastard in a bad mood so he picks on an 88yr old who is a bit unsteady on her feet. Appalling.
   • Jimmy 2.1

     8 May 2024 at 12:21 pm

     I saw that on the news Anne. Bloody disgusting. I hope he gets a decent judge that is not afraid to hand down a decent sentence with no discounts.
   • Belladonna 2.2

     8 May 2024 at 3:19 pm

     How about this one

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/northland-teens-shocking-act-to-push-elderly-man-off-his-bike-for-fun-criticised/VED5JHGPBJA2BBX4OXHW7ZHDGQ/

     Quite appalling targeting of elderly (and largely defenseless) people.

     Any bets as to the penalties likely to be imposed?
     • Shanreagh 2.2.1

       8 May 2024 at 3:31 pm

       Possibly that is where the large shipment of wet bus tickets is destined for, although there are other places and industries that might need them too. /sarc

       Similar to the knocking the 88 year old over in Federal st Auckland.

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/516147/watch-elderly-woman-knocked-to-the-ground-in-unprovoked-attack
3. Ad 3

   8 May 2024 at 10:39 am

   A reasonable commentary on the consistent scandals befalling the Green Party over the last 6 months.

   https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/05/08/green-party-grapples-with-persistent-scandals/

   It's a mighty big rebuild they have to do.
   • Stephen D 3.1

     8 May 2024 at 10:50 am

     Let's hope they do a better rebuild than the Nats. Their current gene pool is so shallow it's scary.
   • Bearded Git 3.2

     8 May 2024 at 11:16 am

     Don't believe everything you read. Van der Kaay writes for the so-called "Democracy Project" run by Bryce Edwards.

     Edwards has for many years consistently criticized parties from the Left while acting as an apologist for the Right.

     The Greens have had 3 unfortunate events.

     1. Shoplifting by a sick and clinically depressed member. She has been sent packing-dealt with.
     2. The as yet unproven migrant exploitation accusation. Under investigation so perhaps best to hold fire on this, but if found true is a bad look and she too will be sent packing.
     3. JAG's crossing the floor and shouting at Doocey (after the lies he yelled provoked her) which is under investigation, and the accusation that she yelled at an anti-cycleway zealot who it turns out, according to posts on TS, is a bit nasty. JAG has an excellent (and to my knowledge unblemished) record for the Greens over many years, both inside and outside parliament.

     Kaay’s article is not worth a hill of beans.
     • gsays 3.2.1

       8 May 2024 at 12:41 pm

       The greens are my former favorite party.

       The behaviour of MPs is worrying. If you extend your timeline a little further back it would include Elizabeth Kerekere and her bullying that forced her to resign.

       Here is an article that says it better than me.

       For me it is less about the individuals, more the attitude that underpins their actions. A sense of entitlement that is concerning.

       Yes, there are two sides to every story. I can't help but feel Tana will end up resigning.

       Genters righteous anger with Doocey is particularly hypocritical. Our first Mental Health minister who has been brave and open about his struggles.

       Frankly the recent commentary here on TS, excusing Genter's behaviour with Dooey, Cranfield and Newcomb in that she was provoked, reeks of the Jake Heke defence "Look what you made me do."

       https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/03-05-2024/can-the-green-partys-holy-mission-survive-its-fallible-disciples
       • Bearded Git 3.2.1.1

         8 May 2024 at 1:25 pm

         Come off it gsays. Genter has been in parliament 13 years behaving, to my knowledge, impeccably.

         Then she gets het up because Doocey yells lies at her (completely ignoring the real spending facts on roading) so she crosses the aisle to show him the actual numbers in the report.

         In an obvious, coordinated and probably made-up hit National drags up a witness to another episode where a passionate JAG meets an anti-cycleway (code for National/ACT voter) person who claims (unproven, no witnesses) she too was yelled at by JAG. Note: Nobody would offer to video a meeting where they were yelling at a constituent.

         It was a very dumb thing to do to cross the aisle and JAG should get a sanction from the privileges committee for this-presumably they will take into account the previous 13 years of not doing this. Note: apparently crossing the aisle is not against the rules.

         I don't see the relevance of Doocey's mental history (you are clutching at straws here). If you are fit to be in parliament you are fit to be part of the rough and tumble. In this case he bears some of the blame by yelling obvious lies in the first place. Maybe this will teach him to stick to yelling the truth.
         • Shanreagh 3.2.1.1.1

           8 May 2024 at 4:01 pm

           In an obvious, coordinated and probably made-up hit National drags up a witness to another episode where a passionate JAG meets an anti-cycleway (code for National/ACT voter) person who claims (unproven, no witnesses) she too was yelled at by JAG. Note: Nobody would offer to video a meeting where they were yelling at a constituent.

           (code for National/ACT voter) This is where outsiders away from Wellington are coming a cropper.

           The lack of consultation by WCC and concerns about it seems to be apolitical. It is not a left/right issue. To me it is a clash between one eyed and multi eyed.

           So those that can see that if we make it difficult for residents to survive then Wgtn becomes less desirable to live. Our suburbs should not be built just to cater for one demographic. It shocked me when talking to people that many of them are ignorant about:

           • the best way of life is for the elderly to remain in their own homes instead of warehousing them in retirement homes/villages Our suburbs will have more and more people over 50-60 years as the years go on.
           • to do this services come to the elderly
           • that while they are at work the suburbs are alive with people such as meals on wheels, elder care people, district nurses, delivery of groceries, meat/vegetable etc. Some of these services are provided by people under time pressure and need to be able to park close to their clients.
           • our homes will continue to be wanted for renovation and that means tradies and bins/ deliveries to DIYers.

           PS An electorate MP represents all the people in the electorate not just the ones who may have voted for her or who she or we perceive might have voted for her.
         • Mike the Lefty 3.2.1.1.2

           8 May 2024 at 5:27 pm

           I have just become aware that the "incident" with the florist actually happened about 18 MONTHS AGO.

           The news reports about it were very obviously slanted to make people believe that it happened shortly before the parliamentary incident.

           So how the f… does this have relevance to the parliamentary incident?

           It isn't like she used a wooden bed leg to bash someone as a certain National MP who is currently in parliament.

           She had an argument with someone, one and a half years ago.

           One and a half years ago!

           And that was buried in the bottom of the article.

           Big f…n deal!

           The right are out to get her, they will stop at nothing!

           http://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350270955/julie-anne-genter-was-buying-flowers-dying-friend-amid-florist-confrontation
           • Shanreagh 3.2.1.1.2.1

             8 May 2024 at 5:44 pm

             If The Greens have only just become aware of this then they need to act on it now. It doesn't matter really when the issues happened. It is not as if the incidents are being ignored by the Greens. They do seem to fit a pattern with the Cranfields person as well.

             Hopefully JAG will have the parlt stuff dealt with by the Privileges cttee and the comms issues dealt with by The Greens and she will keep on being the no1 transport knowledgeable person in the house.

             Of course the more we ourselves blow the issue up the less attention is paid to the Peters/Carr possible defamation stuff.
           • Bearded Git 3.2.1.1.2.2

             8 May 2024 at 5:48 pm

             Hadn't realised that it was 18 months ago Mike…really is a scam/beat up…terrible reporting of the facts by MSM (which is actually their job).
             • Mike the Lefty …

               8 May 2024 at 6:30 pm

               I bet a lot of people didn't realise that.

               And Stuff think they can save the 6 o'clock news?

               Based on this useless example of their journalism, it is already dead.
               • gsays …

                 8 May 2024 at 6:57 pm

                 That's the irony for me.

                 Two from my stable of hobby horses, the road users influence in parliament and MSM. I should have my Pom Poms out.

                 Instead, it's head in my hands bemoaning another 'knock-on'.
           • alwyn 3.2.1.1.2.3

             8 May 2024 at 7:16 pm

             I suggest that you read that article again. You clearly didn't read it very cardfully the first time.

             There were two people who are mentioned in the article. The first was the florist. That happened recently. She is Laura Newcombe.

             The second was about another person, Nicola Cranfield, at another shop, Cranfields, in another part of town. That is the one that Genter claims happened about eighteen months ago.

             When you have read the story a bit more carefully you will see that they are different people, at different times, but with the same rabid dog attitude by JAG.

             There is an even earlier one about her involving a then WCC Councillor Simon Woolf when she also lit into him in a rather deranged manner. Some people, like Genter, simply never learn do they?
         • gsays 3.2.1.1.3

           8 May 2024 at 6:47 pm

           "In this case he bears some of the blame by yelling obvious lies in the first place. Maybe this will teach him to stick to yelling the truth."

           A less kind person would mention victim blaming, I will leave it at the Heke defence.

           "In an obvious, coordinated and probably made-up hit National drags up a witness to another episode where a passionate JAG meets an anti-cycleway (code for National/ACT voter) person who claims (unproven, no witnesses) she too was yelled at by JAG. Note: Nobody would offer to video a meeting where they were yelling at a constituent."

           Maybe, maybe not. Yr conspiracies don't matter.

           Genter did make a boo-boo in the house and these NAct voters and in Genter's own words show she has form for this behaviour. "I accept that sometimes when dealing with people who are very upset, I haven't been able to stay calm and I need to know when to walk away."

           https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/05/07/julie-anne-genter-breaks-silence-and-offers-three-more-apologies/

           Anyhoo, my response to you was more about the glossing over of quite a few (let's be kind) mis-steps from senior Green MPs and what they have in common .

           I am a big fan of Genter too, and rather than take the Officer Barbrady approach – "Nothing to see here folks" I want our comrades in The Greens to get their shit together.
           • Bearded Git 3.2.1.1.3.1

             9 May 2024 at 9:19 am

             gsays-I didn't gloss over anything. The Kerekere bullying happened well over a year ago which is not anywhere close to the period I am commenting on above in relation to Kaay's biased article.

             I commented on the three relatively current events that the MSM media seems to be trying to portray as a pattern, where nothing could be further from the truth.

             If we are to start going back a couple of years there are National MP misdemeanors as long as my arm.
             • gsays …

               9 May 2024 at 6:05 pm

               I couldn't care less for yr whataboutism regards Nat MPs. They ain't my team.

               Clearly there is a worrying aspect to these misdemeanours. Tana, from what little we know appears to be the worst of the lot.

               We all hop up and down and question the Nats and their selection process in regards Uffendell but it would appear you would have us believe the Greens have nothing to worry about, it's all a MSM/NActs conspiracy!
   • Phillip ure 3.3

     8 May 2024 at 11:16 am

     'a reasonable commentary'..really..?

     I thought it was a simplistic rehashing of the wholesale pearl clutching we have seen around this..

     Devoid of any insights…

     Genter spat the dummy at the facile droolings of doocey..on an issue she is both knowledgeable and passionate about ..

     .and she broke parliamentary protocol..by crossing the floor to remonstrate with him..to wave her arms at him ..wave a raft of papers at him .

     That's it .!…

     Yes.. it's a breach of parliamentary protocol ..so the privileges committee will decide her censure…

     That's it..!

     ..and as for the flower lady interaction…the brief interview genter gave the always/easily excited maiki Sherman revealed that she first went in there to buy flowers for a sick friend…

     Not to confront the flower lady..

     This is all looking like a beat up..

     And to use this minor brouhaha to claim the greens are in some kind of crisis and need to 'rebuild'..is frankly farcical.

     The florist obviously challenged her on the cycle-lanes…and genter engaged..and it could be said over-reacted by pulling her phone out..

     That's it..!

     Everyone really needs to get a bit of a grip…

     ..and to breathe through their noses..

     This is all heading for a mountain -out-of-a-molehill-award..
     • Obtrectator 3.3.1

       8 May 2024 at 1:24 pm

       That's it indeed. Basically some inappropriate behaviour, but no suggestion whatever of actual moral turpitude. A token penalty and a warning should cover it, to my mind.

       I checked out Nick's Korero last night. https://nickrockel.substack.com/p/i-could-be-a-florist?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2

       That florist does seem to have some "form" all right. What I take from it is that she's relied in her business mostly on one-time off-the-shelf purchases by the semi-captive market offered by hospital visitors. Dealing with large or special orders don't seem to be her forte. And now that bike lanes have had the effect of reducing that casual trade, she's begun to feel the pinch.
       • Shanreagh 3.3.1.1

         8 May 2024 at 6:00 pm

         You'd be so wrong if you think that this is the type of florist that has the tied up bouquets that you get from the supermarkets.

         This florist is more the old time/type one where they might do flowers for weddings, graduations, whole venues. They are an Interflora florist catering for birthdays all around the south area. Interflora have the deliveries by van or sometimes cycle courier. Mostly van as the flowers need to be kept in tip top condition. I think I'd be right in saying that they would be the only one in Newtown, Berhampore, Island bay. I think there is one in Kilbirnie.

         That part of the shopping centre has been poorly treated over the years. Now the area is a rat run, any shops are suffering. Agencies such as the Cancer Society, closer to the hospital that used to have easy access to a parking area are hemmed in by narrow-ish entrances over a bus lane. If you misjudge your turn and turn too early and have to go along the bus lanes a little way then a camera will ensure you get a ticket for $150.00.

         Further down in Adelaide road at least two businesses I know of have up sticks and are moving because even though WCC say that they have mainaitned entrances for businesses these in practice are difficult to use being across a bus lane and a cycle lane with myriads of green paint, unforgiving kerbing and OTT flag things.

         One of our fellow posters has indicated that people in the area are aware of how these people have been treated and much of the sympathy is going the way of the shopkeepers and not JAG.
     • Patricia Bremner 3.3.2

       8 May 2024 at 1:57 pm

       Perhaps it is creating a smoke screen for the DP who said too much regarding Carr?
     • ianmac 3.3.3

       8 May 2024 at 2:33 pm

       Be great if JAG filmed it all?
     • Mike the Lefty 3.3.4

       8 May 2024 at 6:34 pm

       Not to mention that this second incident actually happened about 18 months ago but the florist conveniently forgot to tell us that.
       This is so obviously a National smear job.
4. Phillip ure 4

   8 May 2024 at 10:53 am

   I heard an interview with Shane Jones on morning report/rnz ..

   And I was struck by the thought that he is like a noisy barbarian at the gate…

   You don't want to let him in…

   And you just want him to go away…
   • bwaghorn 4.1

     8 May 2024 at 10:58 am

     He's gone from amusing bombastic fool, to corrupt dangerous mf. Small men and a little power is always bad
     • Rodel 4.1.1

       8 May 2024 at 11:13 am

       Watched this on TV news. Appalling. and makes me think of 'One strike and your'e out.'
       • Rodel 4.1.1.1

         8 May 2024 at 11:30 am

         '.you're out'…but good to hear.the a'hole was arrested 40 minutes later.
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.2

     8 May 2024 at 8:18 pm

     Yep, he's never won an electorate seat. Not sure he ever could.
5. Chris 5

   8 May 2024 at 11:00 am

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350268124/live-te-pati-maori-mp-stands-exterminate-maori-comments

   Good on Mairiameno Kapa-Kingi for standing up to the tone-deaf apologists whose comments do nothing but enable the insidiousness of what this government's trying to do to its Treaty partner to continue.
   • Traveller 5.1

     8 May 2024 at 11:07 am

     Exterminate: to kill all the animals or people in a particular place or of a particular type.

     EXTERMINATE | English meaning – Cambridge Dictionary

     We've almost become immune to hyperbole, but this one takes the cake.
     • I Feel Love 5.1.1

       8 May 2024 at 11:34 am

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018903262/act-leader-doubles-down-on-joke-about-blowing-pacific-ministry-up

       "blow up"

       phrasal verb of blow

       1. 1.

          explode.

          "the car blew up as soon as it hit the wall"
       • Traveller 5.1.1.1

         8 May 2024 at 1:15 pm

         What is your point? That two wrongs make a right?
       • James Simpson 5.1.1.2

         8 May 2024 at 3:21 pm

         Are you saying that Seymour was right to use that language?

         If so, then you're a disgrace.
         • SPC 5.1.1.2.1

           8 May 2024 at 3:57 pm

           I thought he was saying that Seymour had taken the cake and already eaten it.
     • weka 5.1.2

       8 May 2024 at 5:20 pm

       did you listen to her speech? I watched the short version in Chris' link. You may not agree with her perspective, but the word exterminate used in context was coherent and understandable. She is saying that government policy will remove Māori ability to remain Māori. She's not saying the government will genocide Māori people, she is saying that without their culture they will become white and thus cease to exist.

       Which many people, myself included, agree is true. As far as I can tell, ACT are intent on removing cultural protection, NZF will play the populist, anti-tikanga card, and National will slow things down a bit but will nevertheless attempt to remove Māori power and self-determination.
       • Shanreagh 5.1.2.1

         8 May 2024 at 5:25 pm

         Agree with this summation Weka, I also listend and she was careful but doesn't stop the 'shock, horror' people exclaiming. Also agree with the summary of what ACT etc are up to.
       • Traveller 5.1.2.2

         8 May 2024 at 6:21 pm

         Yes I did listen to her speech. Not only is the use of the word unwise, it is entirely untrue both literally and in context.

         There is no attempt to "remove ability to remain Māori" (your words I know), nor is there any attempt to remove Māori culture. If there was, I and many others would be joining her in the fight.
         • weka 5.1.2.2.1

           8 May 2024 at 7:39 pm

           obviously TPM and Kapa-Kingi disagree with you. She explained it well enough.
           • Traveller 5.1.2.2.1.1

             8 May 2024 at 7:50 pm

             TPM are playing to an audience, Weka. Nothing more, nothing less.
             • weka …

               8 May 2024 at 8:17 pm

               they're a political party

               But really all you've done here is say you don't like what she said

               🤷‍♀️
               • Traveller …

                 8 May 2024 at 9:01 pm

                 It's not that I don't like what she said. It's that is untrue. As I say, she's playing to an audience, that but you're right, that's politics.
                 • weka …

                   8 May 2024 at 9:07 pm

                   I know you think it's untrue. And? All you've done is say 'she's wrong'/
                   • Traveller …

                     8 May 2024 at 9:42 pm

                     I'm not sure what your point is. Her claims are serious enough to warrant challenging.
                   • weka []

                     8 May 2024 at 9:52 pm

                     My point is that you haven’t challenged her claims. You’ve simply reduced a 700 word explanaiton down to one word, named it hyberbole and said she is wrong.
                   • Traveller …

                     8 May 2024 at 9:54 pm

                     "My point is that you haven’t challenged her claims."

                     I have challenged her claims.

                     There is no attempt to "remove ability to remain Māori" (your words I know), nor is there any attempt to remove Māori culture. If there was, I and many others would be joining her in the fight.

                     https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-08-05-2024/#comment-1999080
                   • weka []

                     8 May 2024 at 9:56 pm

                     that doesn’t challenge the claims, it just says you disagree. We already covered this.

                     If you want to challenge the claims, then explain how and why.
                   • Traveller …

                     8 May 2024 at 10:04 pm

                     "If you want to challenge the claims, then explain how and why."

                     You're asking me to prove a negative. There is simply not enough evidence to justify her claims, particularly as she herself has claimed the context was the removal of section 7aa.
                     https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350270453/national-and-labour-say-te-pati-maori-mp-went-too-far-saying-government-planned
                   • weka []

                     8 May 2024 at 10:24 pm

                     I wasn’t asking you to prove a negative, I was saying you haven’t made a challenge. That would require you explaining your thinking about why she is wrong. But never mind.
       • Dolomedes III 5.1.2.3

         8 May 2024 at 6:48 pm

         How exactly will government policy "remove Māori ability to remain Māori."? I don't understand this claim.
         • gsays 5.1.2.3.1

           8 May 2024 at 7:27 pm

           A starting point is trying to erase or eliminate the langauge from the Public Service.

           Last time I looked Maori were part of the Public.
           • Dolomedes III 5.1.2.3.1.1

             8 May 2024 at 7:38 pm

             That does not in any way "remove Māori ability to remain Māori." Even if it wanted to, the government could not remove anyone's ability to remain Maori.

             And the government has not tried to "erase or eliminate the langauge from the Public Service." It has simply told government departments to communicate primarily in English, and to use English names of government departments. A reasonable directive, considering the number of Kiwis who understand English greatly exceeds the number who understand Maaori.
             • gsays …

               8 May 2024 at 8:29 pm

               You appear to have missed the starting point part of my comment.
               • Traveller …

                 8 May 2024 at 9:49 pm

                 No-one is trying to erase or eliminate te reo from the public service.
             • gsays …

               8 May 2024 at 8:52 pm

               But wait, there's more.

               https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350271270/new-disability-issues-minister-louise-upston-insists-whaikaha-will-re-brand
         • weka 5.1.2.3.2

           8 May 2024 at 7:37 pm

           What don't you understand? The government wants to remove the Māori specific aspects of child welfare.

           Here's the Hansard record,

           https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20240501_051540000/kapa-kingi-mariameno

           The theory of the Minister is that Oranga Tamariki's governing principles should be colour-blind, which is just another word for white supremacy, because to say we are all one people is really to say we should all be white people, erasing the very hue of our identity and culture that makes us whole as tangata Māori, tamariki Māori, mokopuna Māori.

           The government intends to remove section 7AA from the Oranga Tamariki Act. That's the section that seeks to change outcomes for Māori kids in Māori terms.

           https://www.orangatamariki.govt.nz/about-us/performance-and-monitoring/section-7aa/what-we-do-section-7aa/
           • Dolomedes III 5.1.2.3.2.1

             8 May 2024 at 7:56 pm

             I'm not sure what you think you're proving by quoting an activist like Kapa-Kingi? Do you actually believe the CRT line that colour-blindness is a "just another word for white supremacy"?

             And what makes you think section 7AA is some kind of magic formula for Maaori advancement? Was it not section 7AA that saw Maaori kids reverse uplifted from white couples who apparently provided a stable, loving family environment? What do you mean by "in Maaori terms"? I would have thought that a stable, loving family environment was up near the top of any child's "cultural needs".

             All I can say in defence of your claim that "government policy will remove Māori ability to remain Māori" is that it isn't quite as hyperbolic as Kapa-Kingi's claim.
             • weka …

               8 May 2024 at 8:15 pm

               I take it you didn't read/listen to the speech?
               • Dolomedes III …

                 8 May 2024 at 8:28 pm

                 Yes I have listened to it weka. And as one other commentator noted, it showed "she is in questionable contact with reality".

                 Would you like to respond to my questions?
               • Traveller …

                 8 May 2024 at 9:52 pm

                 Did you read Karen Chhour's introduction to the bills first reading?

                 Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill — First Reading – New Zealand Parliament (www.parliament.nz)
   • I Feel Love 5.2

     8 May 2024 at 11:32 am

     +1 Chris.
   • bwaghorn 5.3

     8 May 2024 at 12:00 pm

     Ridiculous grandstanding wedge driving shit from tpm!
     • Res Publica 5.3.1

       8 May 2024 at 1:44 pm

       You mean ridiculous, performative outrage from NACT?

       Who on one hand like to shit all over the left for the perceived ills of cancel culture and "wokeness", and on the other start clutching at their pearls whenever they are criticised or get called out for being wankers.

       Who's the snowflake now, David et al?

       [lprent: I’ll let this through despite the handle change. But decide which one you want to use going forward. ]
       • lprent 5.3.1.1

         8 May 2024 at 4:45 pm

         See moderator note
         • Res Publica 5.3.1.1.1

           8 May 2024 at 10:55 pm

           Autofill on my phone strikes again!

           Apologies
           • weka 5.3.1.1.1.1

             8 May 2024 at 11:04 pm

             I've edited the comment above to your regular user name.
       • bwaghorn 5.3.1.2

         8 May 2024 at 6:19 pm

         I have no love of the coc I assure you
   • AB 5.4

     8 May 2024 at 2:43 pm

     What I took from her interview on RNZ this morning was that the word "exterminate" was used deliberately to provoke a response, because words like "deculturation" go over peoples’ heads. The APA's definition of deculturation says:

     the processes, intentional or unintentional, by which traditional cultural beliefs or practices are suppressed or otherwise eliminated as a result of contact with a different, dominant culture.

     I took this as her actual point – the elimination of the Maori worldview as an influential or important force in modern contemporary social, political or economic life.

     I'd agree that the Coalition is attempting to do that – particularly ACT. But actually using the word "exterminate" while knowing that 99% of people would assume it to mean physical extermination/genocide, is tactically stupid. Too much of this sort of thing will mean that parties of the liberal centre-left/right (i.e. Labour) may be backed into a corner where they have no option but to rule out TPM as a partner.
     • Belladonna 5.4.1

       8 May 2024 at 3:29 pm

       Unfortunately the response that she's achieved (except from the already convinced) is that she is in questionable contact with reality. (Extermination is a fair description of what is going on in Gaza, not that what is happening to Maori in NZ).

       Her message (whatever it was) has been lost in the language she chose to use.

       Unless her sole desire was to get her name in the headlines – this has been a communications fail.

       However, TPM have recent history of doing exactly this. Which makes me think that this is all about playing to their party base, and that they have zero interest in ever being part of a government – and a permanent desire to be on the cross-benches, criticizing everyone.
       • weka 5.4.1.1

         8 May 2024 at 5:12 pm

         Growing the party's vote and sitting on teh cross benches free to criticises government policy whoever is in government is not necessarily a bad thing, and might be preferable to being in a centre left Hipkins led government.

         Assuming Labour doesn't need them to govern 😈
         • Belladonna 5.4.1.1.1

           8 May 2024 at 5:17 pm

           Perhaps it's my belief structure getting in the way, but it has always seemed rather pointless to go into Parliament without the desire to actually make changes. And you have to be in government to make changes.
           • weka 5.4.1.1.1.1

             8 May 2024 at 6:11 pm

             I think it's that last sentence that's at issue. The Greens have long demonstrated how change can be achieved without being in government. If TPM spend the next 6 years establishing their policies in the public eye as well as growing their vote, that makes sense to me. The long haul.

             And Labour may still need them.
           • bwaghorn 5.4.1.1.1.2

             9 May 2024 at 6:50 am

             I recall the great Pita Sharples saying it's better to be in the tent than out, didn't go so well for tpm when he chose the national tent
       • Dolomedes III 5.4.1.2

         8 May 2024 at 7:59 pm

         "she is in questionable contact with reality"

         So deftly put.
     • Obtrectator 5.4.2

       8 May 2024 at 4:52 pm

       Maybe she should have used a vivid everyday phrase, such as "consigning Maori culture to the rubbish bin", or something equally vigorous which however stops short of implying actual physical destruction of her people. "Deculturation" (I didn't even know that was a word) wouldn't have done – too unfamiliar and open to misinterpretation.
       • AB 5.4.2.1

         8 May 2024 at 6:55 pm

         Yep – and the question is why she didn't do exactly as you say.
6. Shanreagh 6

   8 May 2024 at 1:21 pm

   Are there any moderators 'on duty' at TS today? Asking for a friend
   • weka 6.1

     8 May 2024 at 5:13 pm

     yes. Why?
     • Shanreagh 6.1.1

       8 May 2024 at 6:05 pm

       I sent some messages to the contact addresses.
       • weka 6.1.1.1

         8 May 2024 at 6:11 pm

         that goes to Lprent. Is it urgent? I can email him and ask him to check them.
         • weka 6.1.1.1.1

           8 May 2024 at 6:12 pm

           he should see his personal one fairly quickly.
         • Shanreagh 6.1.1.1.2

           8 May 2024 at 6:12 pm

           Yes
           • weka 6.1.1.1.2.1

             9 May 2024 at 12:53 pm

             I see Lynn has moderated, sorry that took so long.

             For future reference, the quickest way to get moderator attention is to reply to one of the mods anywhere on site. We check the Replies tab and see who is talking to us. If you don't get a response, do it again.

             In this case you could reply to me (or any mod who is active on the site on the day) and put a link to the comments/thread where the issues are. You don't have to go into details, just link and say there is a serious problem and ask for a mod to take a look.
             • Shanreagh …

               9 May 2024 at 1:50 pm

               Thank you Weka. I will do. I just did not want to inspire yet another go at me.
               • weka …

                 9 May 2024 at 2:26 pm

                 totally understand. Even just replying to an older commenter of mine and asking me to take a look would work (no link needed, I just need to know there is something important to look at).
7. Ffloyd 7

   8 May 2024 at 3:24 pm

   Absolutely agree with Bearded Git. Doocey should be sanctioned for knowingly lying(imo). They do this to try to create a response such as he got from JAG. Precisely what an Iq and Eq challenged person resorts to when they can’t actually debate like an educated and intelligent opponent. As we have seen recently from the garbled car crash that was MMitchell. By the look on Simone’s face this is a tactical method that is going to be ongoing. Just for Simone’s amusement. They are not in Government for the right reasons. Dormant Doocey is just there as a yes vote to everything COC ups want to repeal or pass into legislation. The Right Honourable he IS NOT.
   • Mike the Lefty 7.1

     8 May 2024 at 5:07 pm

     Green baiting, especially the Wellington MPs, is National's goal. In their minds they are getting payback for the Greens kicking National's butt (as well as Labour's) in Wellington at the last election

     All these "incidents" are not co-incidental, they are a deliberate plan by National to disgrace the Greens. Expect more "incidents" to come to light as their plan develops.
8. joe90 8

   8 May 2024 at 3:52 pm

   The man is a fuckwit.

   .

   That programme will be bulk purchased by the government and delivered to schools, which Seymour said would "significantly reduce the cost of the programme".

   "Students will receive nutritious food that they want to eat. It will be made up of the sorts of food items thousands of mums and dads put into lunch boxes every day for their kids – forget quinoa, couscous, and hummus, it will be more like sandwiches and fruit," Seymour said.

   When asked about food items like sushi for lunches, he said, "If you don't get that sushi's woke, then I don't know how to wake you up, but the key message here is that we are introducing the kinds of foods that are put in the lunchboxes of children, the other 75 percent of kids, who rely on their parents to send their lunch".

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/sushis-woke-seymour-cuts-107m-school-lunches

   The Government has sunk to a new low with today’s announcement that they will replace high quality nutritious lunches with largely processed snack foods for Intermediate and High School students, as families continue to struggle with food insecurity.

   “This announcement is a devastating lost opportunity to promote healthy eating habits that protect against chronic diseases that result in major health system costs,” Health Coaltiion Aotearoa (HCA) co-chair Professor Lisat Te Morenga said.

   https://www.healthcoalition.org.nz/lunches-downgrade-robs-children-of-nutrition-well-being-immunity-and-fuel-to-learn/
   • Drowsy M. Kram 8.1

     8 May 2024 at 4:09 pm

     A definitive list of woke and non-woke foods [8 May 2024]
     In announcing changes to the school lunches programme, David Seymour said kids would no longer be served ‘woke’ foods.

     I'd liken Seymour to a worm, except worms are useful. Does he fear 'woke' food will turn kids (future voters) 'woke'? What a turd – nope, also more useful than Seymour.

     Woke up Kiwis – they're here!

     They're here already! You're next! You're next, You're next…!

     https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049366/characters/nm0002994#quotes
     • Dolomedes III 8.1.1

       8 May 2024 at 9:45 pm

       I imagine Seymour's problem is with the price of middle-class foods like hummus and quinoa.
       • Grant 8.1.1.1

         8 May 2024 at 11:21 pm

         Hummus is a staple food made from cheap as chips chick peas. My wife who’s been teaching in a wide decile range of primary schools for over forty years says she’s seen plenty of hummus in school lunches but has never seen quinoa or couscous. Are you sure you and your dorky mate mate have your facts right?
         • weka 8.1.1.1.1

           8 May 2024 at 11:34 pm

           I'm guessing quinoa features in some of the meals for kids with food allergies eg those that need gluten-free.

           Or Seymour is making shit up. The whole things has the same vibe as Penny Simmonds going on about disabled carers getting massages. Afaik she never produced any evidence of this nor meaningful explanation. It was superficial bullshit designed to make it harder to get at the truth of what they were doing.
9. Subliminal 9

   8 May 2024 at 4:17 pm

   Well, here we are with a major movement developing in the student aged population in the US (and increasingly the world) against the slaughter in Gaza.

   The Biden admin thought that a few swift kicks at the encampments by riot police or rabid supporters of Israel would cause them to hastily pack up camp and go home to Mummy and Daddy.

   Instead we are looking at the development of a movement that may equal that of the Vietnam protests. Gazans are already making signs thanking the students of the world for their compassion and humanity.

   And just to give everyone the morale boost they needed, along comes Macklemore with a smart and defiant mainstream rap that really says what youth says best to authority with all proceeds going to UNRWA

   There arent a lot of bright spots for Gaza now with the Rafah invasion seemingly in motion but this is definitely one.

   Edit: I thought the embed code was enough to get the song onto the page but apparently not so you’ll need to click through.

   https://twitter.com/macklemore/status/1787616471738368099
10. roblogic 10

    8 May 2024 at 9:45 pm

    The BHN episode linked here adds important context to some of the comments on Māori politics today. The status quo of New Zealand is still detrimental to Tangata Whenua.

    We have made some good progress in the last few years, supporting Māori culture and Te Reo and wellbeing. But to deny that the current government is trying to erase all those gains is simple ignorance.

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