This is insane during a time of growing unemployment and economic downturn.
The local companies have great experience of building rail electrification from the Auckland network. And to award the contract to China of all places? Unbelievable. China should be paying us compensation for the economic devastation from their actions relating to covering up their virus from October through to January. They are no friends of ours that's for sure.
That's the separate departmental mentality for you, that uses cost as it's primary factor. It is inexcusable at present.
If we included the SROI (Social Return on Investment) and other benefits when considering these major contracts, any local supplier would be accurately measured.
A legislative adjustment that changes the way government contracts are awarded, is required, and as soon as possible.
In this case I do wonder exactly what is the real motivation. Kiwirail have had 10 years of being ripped off by their Chinese suppliers (and remember most large Chinese companies are ultimately owned and controlled by the Chinese government).
The Chinese built DL locomotives have been a disaster, from continual mechanical breakdowns to the discovery they were riddled with banned asbestos. Already many have had to be partially rebuilt due to poor components and finish. And the Chinese built wagons were a similar expensive fiasco, with container wagons that were unable to be used as their camber prevented containers being able to be loaded! And the wagons with brakes that applied by themselves when running, causing hugely expensive damage to wheels and track.
I think it is well overdue that the Auditor General had a good look at the cost relationship between Kiwirail and their Chinese suppliers. Anyone who has ever dealt with Chinese procurement will be well aware of what I mean.
Great spin from the losing contenders, regurgitated faithfully by our media.
Irony alert, the companies complaining about 'foreign' companies winning a bid are themselves primarily or wholly foreign owned. Also, says only 30% of decision was based on price so likely the winners were also better at doing the jobhttps://t.co/OW329PPq3d
Downers and Fletchers are listed on the Australian share market. Their ownership has a heavy NZ component and involvement. They employ locally. Chinese firms tend to largely operate as a closed shop.
As as for being 'better at the job', experience tells us otherwise, as per my post above. The media were doing what our PM should have been doing: putting the interests of our country first and applying pressure to KR.
National flush out the SOE's to get what they want asap so it'd be interesting to see how 'blue' the management team is. They can do whatever the F they like basically
Governance is a box that's sooo easy to tick so everybody's all nice and clean.
25% cheaper to buy, but if you look at the costs of the required DL locomotive partial rebuilds, the lengthy period they were withdrawn to allow the removal of asbestos, the loss of productivity due to wagons that could not be used and required essentially new decks, the damage to track and wheel sets due to faulty brakes, which themselves required rebuild, all at our expense, I am sure the 25% saving was sucked up very quickly and we are now probably millions out of pocket.
And yet KR continues to purchase DL locos. Very odd.
They've obviously had the big meeting with Todd and every little incident in the country, any little thing is to be used to create a fuss and a presence. From the desperate bullies like Matt King to the twerps like Simeon Brown they're into it.
There's probably a 'brownie points' chart in the caucus room and every mention in the media is a point. A photo is a star and a T snippet will be some special bonus.
Matt King is a real chip off the Aaron Gilmore/Mike Sabin block and the 'right stuff' for team Toddy.
I look forward to his ongoing contributions as to what's left behind in the NZ police force that he identifies with still and all around him in team national.
Call me suspicious, but several of Guyon Espiner’s pieces have involved “scandals” involving constituents of the Government Coalition. NZ First’s Trust and financial structure, and now the “SIS 80s break ins” linked to the then Labour Govt. of David Lange. https://shorthand.radionz.co.nz/the-service-podcast/index.html
Perhaps todays voters will not care about such things as the Cold War “pie and Penthouse” era SIS–I see RNZ could not resist running again the 1974 night photo of Soviet diplomat Dimitri Razgovorov allegedly legging it after meeting Dr Sutch!
Sure Espiner’s story may have naturally unfolded and been ready to roll, but few investigative writers drop a significant piece without consideration of timing. My view is there are various ways to try and undermine an administration. The ongoing exposure of the media stitch up of Jeremy Corbyn–in collusion with right wing UK Labour people–shows how this can work.
So you think that these illegal (although no doubt justified) actions should have remained buried forever? Gee, I thought we lived in a free and open society.
If anything, this story is a positive for the Labour government of that time, as it dispels the myth that some still hold that they were puppets of Moscow. Shows the truth that they were realists.
Don't be naive Peter Chch. TMs point is looking at whether Guyon Espiner is basically just a Labour destroyer, despite giving signals that he is passionate about telling the facts, the truth, transparency etc.
We need to know the present news, and then about the present background of it; we already know about the past, and it can be referred to briefly but left for later to be brought forward and reviewed for a fuller picture.
Greywarshark. I put that that badly in my post. But absolutely no, I do not think he is a Labour destroyer.
His article is of importance and interest and the timing is not relevant to the Labour led government of today. It is to Espiners credit he investigated and published now. We need more real journalism like his, regardless of our political views.
Yeah I think I'm probably naive, but still suspicious of Espiner. When he left being host on Radionz he started into something that I felt seemed like a rightish partisan choice, forget what it was.
Yes. For those who have forgotten, this is from the 2017 election. Steven Joyce and his "hole", memorably challenged by Guyon, and nobody in all of the media coverage ever did it better:
…Peter Chch @3.1
No. If I thought the SIS story should be buried I would have said so. I have no brief at all for the NZSIS and its history of bungling and pursuing non threatening subjects, and not pursuing some more obvious ones!
The consensus from those that replied to my post seems to be that Espiner’s story can stand alone, and I’m fine with that.
… its history of bungling and pursuing non threatening subjects, and not pursuing some more obvious ones.
Actually someone from the SIS is on record for acknowledging as much in the aftermath of the Christchurch shootings. It might have been Director, Rebecca Kitteridge.
The history of the SIS leaves a lot to be desired. I was one of those personally impacted in the 80s and I suspect you were too. We will have to wait until the end of the 5 part series to be able to pass judgement on Guyon Espiner's handling of the subject. He's a good journo if a bit uneven with his partisanship at times.
Journalists ought to be applying extra scrutiny to whoever is in government. Investigative stories like that take many months so I would not be reading too much into timing.
Investigative journalists and writers are needed to write about incidents which have been covered up providing what they write is factual.
People will read into what they think regardless of the timing.
On 17 June it is 45 years since the Colin Moyle incident. The full police evidence has not yet been released. Moyle has not recieved an apology from the police either. I think how the police handled the matter is of public interest. I also feel that there are documents of public interest when it comes to the planting of the cartridge case in the false conviction of Arthur Allan Thomas.
Yes Treetop, 100% agree. NZ Police have at times acted appallingly.
Re Arthur Allen Thomas. Not just the cartridge case, the 'discovery' of the stub axle in the Thomas farm tip also was very suspect although seldom gets a mention. And to think that corrupt scumbag Hutton was praised so highly by Mike Bush, former Police Commissioner. Unbelievable.
Who is the watch dog of historical police cover ups?
How do you get a historical police matter to be investigated by an independent source?
I thought that a police commissioner or the PM could order an inquiry.
I do not like it when a situation becomes political because the person who has been treated appallingly is the person who has to fight for justice and this takes energy when the complainant is usually partially burntout.
A private investigator costs money but an investigative journalist does not.
Where would Teina Pora be if McKinnel did not intervene?
It is important to keep an eye on the ball – the mirror ball that is the election. It's very Labour purist to decide to follow some lead of misbehaviour or even crime of the past and get excited about that, and forget about being pragmatic.
Pragmatic is real, it's now which is chaotic and we must stay steady on course; the other matters may be festering but bringing them up now is suspect to me.
NZ has needs like never before. Stick with thinking about those all left supporters and concentrate on being in defence mode, not stir-mode.
But what if you were personally affected by a historical issue and you are still being affected and you approached those who were in a position to investigate and they were not diligent?
As for stir mode, were the unresolved to resurface due to it being part of something else really important would victim blaming occur?
But what if you were personally affected by a historical issue and you are still being affected and you approached those who were in a position to investigate and they were not diligent?
I would go further than that and say: those in a position to investigate often chose not to do so because they were protecting their own.
"Call me suspicious, but several of Guyon Espiner’s pieces have involved “scandals” involving constituents of the Government Coalition. NZ First’s Trust and financial structure, "
Do you not think this was worth checking out it is kosher?
It has nothing to do with Espiner's timing. NZF was leaking like a sieve.
Is anyone talking about what it will mean for NZ if we eradicate the coronavirus and no useful vaccine is developed? Or are we avoiding this until we see what happens with the vaccine?
I meant eradicate rather than eliminated in NZ. I thought eliminated meant no current outbreaks but still the potential for them, whereas eradicated meant there is no virus left here. I don't know how those are assessed/measured.
But either way, is anyone talking about if there is no more covid in NZ and there is no vaccine?
Ta. The public health language matches what I used above: 'Eradicated' means it exists nowhere in the world. 'Eliminated' means only within a specific area, like NZ.
Elimination only in NZ just puts more pressure on our border controls, quarantine, ongoing community testing and fast tracing capabilities.
Restating the question then, is anyone talking about what happens if NZ eliminates covid and there is no vaccine (say in the next 5 years), or are we waiting and seeing?
Assuming we sort out the quarantining issues, what next? Are we basing out current responses on the idea that a vaccine will be available in the next few years?
I would have thought that pinning hopes on a vaccine is foolhardy.
We would need to progress with the notion the disease has to be managed, along the lines of the 14 day quarantine and checking temps/testing that we do now.
I'm guessing the BAU economics crowd are working off the assumption that we will have a vaccine (backed up by the idea that if we don't, we should let covid back in at some point).
More interested in what progressives are thinking and if anyone is considering it seriously.
NZ can probably eliminate Covid-19 with the current border restrictions. Once the borders are open even with a NZ and Australian bubble the risk rises to not eliminating the virus in NZ.
Which animals can get the virus from humans and then pass it onto humans is a worry.
It is not a time for being complacent in jeopardizing the hard won gains in the Covid-19 fight.
good grief, that article is a hodge podge of he said/she said. The MoH response looks standardly inadequate, but the 'we had to walk through a crowd of people wearing masks' story doesn't quite add up either.
The comment from the apartment wing dweller is more concerning than the earlier one who just heard some people with a US accent in the hotel reception area.
Main problem seems to be that the MoH is reduced to taking the word of others about whether proper quarantine was maintained. Not good enough.
The image of the guys lying on a bed with a bed cover printed the same as the wallpaper reminds me of a Gary Larson cartoon where enemy insects come to the door and the mother sits in her armchair unnoticed because her dress and the armchair match the wallpaper. That Gary, he has super-vision for a different angle to everything we think we know.
This Cold War thing and spies and… is depressingly cyclic. Can we never break out; (plaintively)?
After spending all that time being protected from the Russians in a safe house, and not appearing on any news platform for safety reasons they are suddenly outed as living in NZ
15,000 Russians already live in NZ.To think that the Skripals could live here anonymously is ridiculous.If the Brits cant provide safety with their much more beefed up resources, why should we be able to?And why should we?
I think its total bullshit so that everyone can now just forget about the Skripals
By keeping the borders closed we're effectively cutting off international tourism and the foreign student industry.
Meanwhile import/export goes on as usual
Limited numbers are allowed in according to our capacity to test, track , and isolate
And viable treatments could change the scene considerably .Like HIV no vaccine, but good treatments
Meanwhile we look at restructuring our domestic economy I suppose
Sorry Weka , I'm no expert, no "inside" info , just "supposes"
Cuba might give us a few clues
Cuba at 11.4 million has managed to survive for decades despite the US embargo and sanctions.
They have their own pharmaceutical industry, a health system lauded internationally, and a commitment to organic food production.
Like us they have been heavily dependent on tourism .Unlike us they do not charge huge amounts for foreign students attending their much praised medical schools
We should keep an eye on Cuba. They've handled Covid 19 brilliantly on meagre resources, and after years of imposed economic privations have come up with innovative strategies to deliver good outcomes for the people
Well i guess if we found a benefactor like the USSR that pumped up the Cuban economy for political reasons, then maybe. In the absence of such, I would not recommend it.
Take a look at Cubas appallingly real situation, not the bs stats from a dictatorial government.
Really? Have you actually been there and seen the empty shops? Try something as simple as getting a coffee in a coffee shop. Their economy is a joke. Like so many extreme right or extreme left economies, they are a beautiful peoples in a beautiful country ruled by an out of touch elite.
The USSR propped it up but with the end of their empire Cuba reverted to what it otherwise would have been.
Life expectancy in this poor country is 78.66 years
Same in US (7th richest country in the world);78.54
Child mortality is at a lower rate than the US
Cuba 4 per 1000 live births
US 5.8 per 1000 live births
Suicide rate s
Cuba 10.1 per 100,000 (less than us)
US 21.4 per 100,000
Wikipedia
forget about the trappings of consumerism, if you want your children to stay alive, to live longer and not be driven to suicide its Cuba hands down
For example, with suicide, just look at Durkheims famous study on suicide, that found vastly different recorded suicide rates reflected cultural factors more so than any real difference in numbers. With Cuba being a Roman Catholic country, that would suggest the authorities would be more reluctant to record a death as suicide than from other causes.
Life expectancy is also a meaningless comparison. Vastly different ethnic mix, a largely rural hot country cf a heavily industriaised country and could one even rely on a dictatorship to be honest as to stats?
As I say, visit Cuba, then post your views from first hand evidence and after talking to the locals. You may well have a different viewpoint then.
Just outta curiosity, how many Cubans want to move to the US? How many US residents want to move to Cuba? Of the Cubans that have moved to the US, how many want to move back to Cuba?
I am not so fussed about open borders.It remains to be see whether either tourism or education has been an overseas earner worth having. Despite our substantial population increases in the last 15 years my understanding is that GDP per head has remained pretty flat. We need to transition to a high wage economy not a high people import economy
Would be very nice indeed. But in promoting that idea you need to take into account the demographics, because people at different stages of their life behave rather differently in economic impact.
Young adults, under about 40, spend more, borrow more and drive up consumption as they form families, establish households and have children. They are early in their working life, have lower skills in general and lower productivity. On the back of this demographic you can have a consumption led economy.
Middle adults are all about saving and investment. They pay down the mortgage, build equity in investments and save as much as they can. They now have two decades of work experience, are much more productive and pay higher taxes. On this demographic you can have a high value export led economy.
Late adults, from 65 onward suddenly drop out of the job market and switch from saving to drawing down on their investments. The Japanese worked out an ingenious solution to this; they used automation to locate much of their manufacturing directly into their overseas markets, off shoring their economy.
These are broad and crude generalisations of course, but what they tell you is that the raw population numbers alone are not enough to understand what is going to drive a 'high wage' economy.
Because all the developed nations now have birth rates below replacement, populations are experiencing for the first time in human history a 'demographic inversion', more older people than younger ones. It's not obvious at all that every developed nation can use an export or offshore led strategy to support their economies.
New Zealand is an interesting exception to this pattern, we have maintained a reasonably flat demographic profile by two processes, one was by exporting older workers overseas (over a quarter of all people born in NZ no longer live here), and at the same time importing younger workers to replace them. Immigration has been a critical factor in supporting a balance of local domestic consumption, and export driven income. (What we have never managed is to develop an authentic off-shored economy, but that may be a useful clue in developing a strategy.)
Like you I'm no fan of increasing NZ's population for the sake of it, but in proposing change it's vital to start thinking about the implications.
To those who are protesting against civil outrages and bad government.Here is a song about a protester from the Vietnam war. This is just one of the past protests and the words written by NZr Willow Macky about an Australian with values.
It is important that we keep trying to alter the direction that our world is constantly turning to that leads to destruction for the many. We did try in the 20th century, and though you don't understand that there may not be a 21st century for people, please take our word for this and keep thinking and working as if humans and animals will live on to their good potential. You will meet the best people you will ever know on these protests and the environmental work, so keep working together doing important work though you will have realised it won't make you rich!
If the National Party was prepared to come up with a deal where they could beat Labour and come up with a plan on addressing inequality, on climate action, and on protecting nature – and they could outdo our current partners on that
Sure, outdoing their current partners is an awfully low bar, but it's still higher than a chalk line on the ground.
Shaw said the Greens have had a "different strategy".
"We've been doing quite a lot of online town halls around the country and we've had several thousand people participate in those and for us that was about talking to people directly rather than trying to misbehave to carve out media time."
Garner asked Shaw if he was accusing the Deputy Prime Minister of misbehaving.
"No, not at all," Shaw replied. "It would be completely unlike me, as you know Duncan."
.@MittRomney is marching with a group of nearly 1,000 Christians to the White House. Here he is on video saying why he’s walking: “… to make sure that people understand that Black Lives Matter” https://t.co/KCxJNchCMspic.twitter.com/Za0Am2WL8g
The option of a fully defunded Police force is that the hard left can occupy the streets with chanting and the hard right can come onto the streets with AR15s.
There will be plenty of city-wide initiatives that come out of this, but the bills that are already in play at the federal level are where this contest needs to go.
We re already deep into danger of nothing meaningful coming out of all these protests as much as nothing did from the last upsurge of #Blacklivesmatter.
If the moronity stops it will be a gift for Biden to support the proposed police reforms now in the House. If it will continue it will give a good bump to Trump on a straight law and order platform like he has pledged.
After a particularly deadly year in 1995, Camden’s Cathedral of Immaculate Conception began illuminating one candle for each homicide victim. In 2012, the year ended with 67 candles—a rate of about 87 murders per 100,000 residents, which ranked Camden fifth nationwide.
But on New Year’s 2018, just 22 candles were lit: The city’s murder rate fell to its lowest since 1987. The number of annual killings has been in decline since 2012; so have robberies, aggravated assaults, violent crimes, property crimes, and non-fatal shooting incidents.
So what’s happening in this city, which for many years has been deemed among the dangerous in America? Thomson, who took the helm of the Camden police force in 2008, says the biggest factor may have been the change in structure of the department itself. In 2013, the Camden Police Department was disbanded, reimagined, and born again as the Camden County Police Department, with more officers at lower pay—and a strategic shift toward “community policing.”
Council members said in interviews on Sunday that they did not have specific plans to announce for what a new public safety system for the city would look like. They promised to develop plans by working with the community, and said they would draw on past studies, consent decrees and reforms to policing across the nation and the world.
Maybe have the new “police” live in the communities they serve as a basic start.
Out of control thuggery. Well overdue a root and branch jobbie.
Long before former officer Derek Chauvin knelt on George Floyd’s neck, the Third Precinct in south Minneapolis had a reputation for being home to police officers who played by their own rules.
One officer kicked a handcuffed suspect in the face, leaving his jaw in pieces. Officers beat and pistol-whipped a suspect in a parking lot on suspicion of low-level drug charges. Others harassed residents of a south Minneapolis housing project as they headed to work, and allowed prostitution suspects to touch their genitals for several minutes before arresting them in vice stings.
These and more substantiated incidents, detailed in court records and police reports, help explain a saying often used by fellow cops to describe the style of policing practiced in the Third: There’s the way that the Minneapolis Police Department does things, and then there’s the way they do it “in Threes.”
The article IFL linked to, and you approvingly replied to is quite specific in supporting police abolition.
Amid the current protests, abolitionist groups have put forward concrete steps toward dismantling police and prisons, arguing that defunding police is the first move,
No police, no prisons, and presumably no courts. Do you support this McFlock?
Because in the absence of state law enforcement, communities will quickly revert back to armed gangs of young men imposing their own arbitrary rules.
I think you'll find that most of those abolitionist groups do not see "zero police and prisons" as being synonymous with "armed gangs instead". I mean, it wouldn't compute in your head that there might be a different way of achieve peace in a society, but that doesn't mean that they don't have some valid ideas.
Additionally, as the Cambden example illustrates, eliminating the current police force doesn't even mean replacing it with a police force of a completely different nature to the current alienated and combative model.
So your strict interpretation of a single line in a report as being representative of an entire movement wanting "armed gangs" roaming neighbourhoods is just another example of your own conviction that there is no alternative to present evils.
It's very clear that everyone is rejecting 'incremental reforms', so I followed the link in the article above, the one you so strongly supported, and it lands here:
Demand the highest budget cuts per year, until they slash police budget to zero.
Slash police salaries across the board until they are zeroed out.
Immediately fire police officers who have any excessive force complaints.
No hiring of new officers or replacement of fired or resigned officers.
Fully cut funding for public relations.
Suspend the use of paid administrative leave for cops under investigation.
That's very explicit … in fairly short order it means no police, no law enforcement. If this is what BLM is really demanding then do you support this?
just another example of your own conviction that there is no alternative to present evils.
Actually no. In numerous posts over the years I've outlined in considerable detail many alternatives to the current order of things …. sadly most of them too radical for the unimaginative. These days I hold back a fair bit.
But you haven't been holding back have you. No at every opportunity you have jumped at the chance to play apologist for the police. Credibility none you have.
I actually do support that for current police departments. They need to be cleaned out, shut down, and replaced with something better. Whether that is a more community-oriented style of policing, or even something an actual anarchist might come up with, I look forward to seeing a variety of approaches. None of which will revolve around armed gangs of youths (well, no more than currently).
Because most of them will be better than the current model of paramilitary policing as an occupying force. And the ones that aren't will be discontinued quickly, as the "there is no alternative" terror will have been overcome by a multitude of viable alternatives.
What if all people became so educated and refined that the mere thought of committing an offense against another was more shameful than the act itself?
Preventing crime is obviously a far more desirable strategy than punishing it and I'd strongly support anything that might be shown to move us in that direction. This position is consistent with my track record here for many years.
It's fairly clear too that the USA has moved too far down the path of punishment to the neglect of prevention. They need to restore that balance.
But this does not mean there will be no crime. You know that perfectly well. There is a reason why clubs and bars have bouncers, and why all functioning human societies have laws and means of enforcing them. Arguing that the police should be abolished when you can't even begin to outline 'something better' is beyond wrong. It's insane.
No. It's letting communities find their own solutions to their own problems, be it a phased replacement like in Cambden or whatever they come up with in the way of community involvement and control.
Because paramilitary policing isn't working.
Watching the same injustices get perpetrated by the same broken system year after year and doing nothing about it is insanity.
It's letting communities find their own solutions to their own problems, be it a phased replacement like in Cambden or whatever they come up with in the way of community involvement and control.
Ah … separate development. Sounds familiar? Does this mean white supremacists get to have their own 'community solutions' too? I somehow don't think that is what you have in mind.
This of course doesn't rule out more sophisticated policing systems that have strong community input and advice, and adapt themselves appropriately to the situations they are operating in. That isn't easy and takes a considerable effort to develop the trust, communication and institutional memory to make it work well.
But that's the kind of incrementalism BLM has explicitly rejected. They're demanding police abolition, and there isn't much wriggle room in that.
At bedrock the whole concept of the nation state is predicated on it's right to make laws and operate them on behalf of all it's citizens. It is the state that 'owns and controls' the justice system, not any arbitrary number of identity groups.
BLM is not a homogeneous group, that's your first problem.
Secondly, municipalities in the US already determine their own policing methods. That's why some have a PD, some have a sherriff's department, some have constables, and some have two or thee organisations over the same jurisdictions. And yes, this has resulted in some forces consisting of white supremacists. That's a problem with the current system.
Thirdly, incrementalism failed. That's why obviousl;y defenceless people are still being murdered.
Unfortunately they're not very clear on what 'defund the police' actually might mean, but here you have it leading on their main website. You kind of have to take it seriously and ask yourself exactly what you are supporting.
Secondly, municipalities in the US already determine their own policing methods.
Yeah that's a big part of the problem. Somewhere up above I mentioned the 18,000 different law enforcement agencies in the USA. I really recommend this link on gypsy cops. It's an eye-opener.
The United States has a highly decentralized and fragmented system of law enforcement, with around 18,000 law enforcement agencies, and is regulated separately in the 50 states, plus US territories, the federal and local level as well. Hiring and disciplinary standards vary greatly between police departments, the majority of which are small in size.
In other words community driven policing is already a strong feature of US law enforcement and this is the less than wonderful outcome.
Yes and no. How many US police officers are actually responsible to the communities they police, or live in those communities?
But then we might start looking at why that is, and the roots of US policing vs the roots of the London Met. Both developed to respond to two very different labour problems in the defense of the ruling class.
How many US police officers are actually responsible to the communities they police, or live in those communities?
Well in the majority of these smaller law enforcement agencies it's my understanding that the senior officer, typically a Sheriff, is an elected position, directly accountable to the community.
As for the ordinary police officers I have no direct link for this, but again I believe that there has been a real movement toward hiring an ethnic diversity of officers in recent decades. And it would only be logical to think the majority would live locally. Happy to see evidence to the contrary.
OK so in reviewing your responses it's clear that you have rejected any political reform process, and by implication are supporting the full disbanding of all police forces as demanded by BLM and many other liberal left voices at the moment.
Or if you have any other alternative ideas you really have failed to express them.
All well and good; you'll get to punch nazis to your heart's content.
RL, would traditional police systems be part of your vision for a future hyper-energised global world order?You seem to have imagination to burn when it comes to making giant leaps, but a poverty of imagination wrt small steps.
A 2014 article on "alternatives to the modern police system", for open minds.
“Let’s talk about policing the way we too often don’t. The underlying problem with policing isn’t just the lack of oversight policies, more training, and better procedures. While radically changing these three areas remains essential for harm reduction, the problem itself is more insidious.
The core problem is modern policing itself. The original sin of policing in this nation is its attachment to the nation’s first and most devastating sin: chattel slavery. Modern police forces in this country can be traced back to slave patrols used in Charleston, South Carolina. From their inception, police have been tasked with protecting power and privilege by exerting social control over Black people.” https://www.aclu.org/news/criminal-law-reform/reimagining-the-role-of-police/
What you completely omit from that narrative is that European and American societies were the first ones to outlaw chattel slavery. They are the societies that invented industrialisation that made slavery obsolete, and then had the great internal debate (and in the case of the USA a very bloody Civil War) to end it.
Evidence of slavery predates written records and has existed in many cultures.[3] Slavery is rare among hunter-gatherer populations because it requires economic surpluses and a high population density to be viable. Thus, although it has existed among unusually resource-rich hunter gatherers, such as the American Indian peoples of the salmon-rich rivers of the Pacific Northwest Coast, slavery became widespread only with the invention of agriculture during the Neolithic Revolution about 11,000 years ago.[42]
In the earliest known records, slavery is treated as an established institution. The Code of Hammurabi (c. 1760 BC), for example, prescribed death for anyone who helped a slave escape or who sheltered a fugitive.[43] The Bible mentions slavery as an established institution.[3] Slavery was known in almost every ancient civilization and society.[3] Such institutions included debt bondage, punishment for crime, the enslavement of prisoners of war, child abandonment, and the birth of slave children to slaves.
Ending such a deeply embedded institution was not just a simple political and legal matter. It had strong cultural roots that have taken generations to wither away. In the USA abolition was just 150 years ago, the restoration of full civil rights just 60 years ago. The growth of a strong black middle class is another remarkable feature of this period, culminating in the election of a black President in this past decade.
In the face of such undeniable progress, to pretend the USA is somehow unique in it's 'original sin of racist slavery' is nothing but a perverse fruit of indentity politics run to a toxic eruption.
You are quite correct. Both Ming and Qing rules outlawed it respectively, but slavery was never on the level of that which Europeans practiced in the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Nor did it rise to the same evil level of dehumanisation as the trans-Atlantic trade.
'Slavery' of course in terms of indentured labour into the 20th century in China. It was in fact indentured labour often called slavery. While morally reprehensible, it is different in nature from chattel slavery practiced in North America.
The British and French used vast amounts of forced labour in their colonies in the 20th century – is that slavery?
And if we categorise forced and indentured labour as slavery, as the white right do when it comes to non-Western cultures, then we should apply the same to the US —chain gangs, prison labour etc, then some have said that what was in essence slavery (to a far greater extent than what occurred in China say), persisted in the USA right up until WW2. Excellent documentary 'Slavery by Another Name"
As I said slavery was deeply embedded in all societies, stretching back over at least 10 millenia, therefore it would be very surprising if it had come to an absolute end everywhere all at once, in every conceivable form. Your own reference to the Chinese experience demonstrates just how many times it was outlawed, and yet how persistently it reappeared.
But since industrialisation, the US Civil War and the emancipation movement, the rejection and trend away from slavery, toward a full and permanent recognition of it's evils is undeniable.
If you read the reference fully it seems various Chinese dynasties repeatedly attempted to abolish slavery … the final date reads:
The Hongwu Emperor abolishes all forms of slavery,[5] but it continues across China. Later rulers, as a way of limiting slavery in the absence of a prohibition, pass a decree that limits the number of slaves per household and extracts a severe tax from slave owners.[23]
Still it is fair to say that while slavery was a very common feature of pre-industrial life, most people recognised it as a very undesirable state to fall into. It's history is, like most things, way more complex than we imagine and at various times it was abolished by more enlightened rulers, only to reappear later.
It was industrialisation that ensured it's suppression from modern life, by making it obsolete.
It was industrialisation that ensured it's suppression from modern life, by making it obsolete.
That is true to an extent. One can say that for civilization to advance beyond the hunter gatherer, there needed to be a group of people who did the shitty work, and allowed others to philosophize, create, paint, sculpture, and design. Such as the case in feudal Europe and Asia, and ancient Greece and Rome.
However one could still run a pretty much pre-industrial society without the form of chattel and heritable slavery seen in the Americas –China is one example.
Yes, agree, it was a very unfortunate position to be, whether a galley slave of Ancient Rome, a Russian serf, or a Chinese peasant in pre-revolutionary China.
"European and American societies were the first ones to outlaw chattel slavery. w chattel slavery"
There is a wide spectrum relating to the level of dehumanization, when it comes to 'slavery' in all of its many historical forms. There is the Greco Roman type, the indentured servitude type that use to be found in China, the Islamic type, indentured labour in the South Pacific, 'blackbirding' in Queensland, Chinese coolies in the US, and the type of slavery practiced in the ante-bellum US south.
The last one on the list above was by far the most dehumanising and racist and hopeless for those enslaved, for a whole host of reasons. That dehumisation has continued right up through the past 150 years through Jim Crow, lynchings, the indignities of segregation, and police brutality.
Whereas, say, for Chinese indentured servants such as mui tsai etc, they could well have married into the families they worked for and their children and definitely their children's children seamlessly become part of the mainstream without any stigma attached to them. In most other cases slaves were still considered human, not sub-human
Even conservative US Christians make this point and draw distinctions when try to mitigate Paul's apparent defence of it ( Epistle of Paul to Philemon for example). That it was vastly different in nature to that which existed in the ante-bellum Southern states. And they are right.
In order to link North China and South China, the Yuan rulers ordered the expansion of the Grand Canal, and it took almost 10 years for over 4 million slaves to finish the project.
As for slavery in the ante-bellum US, there is no quibble it intensified into an especially dehumanised version. In the early part of the industrial revolution technologies like deep water navigation and the advent of rapid economic growth in Europe resulted in an especially toxic period. Yet it was never sustainable in any sense of the word … it came to an end most abruptly with the cost of many lives in a bloody civil war.
But somehow pretending this period was categorically uniquely evil, and that by comparison the slavery of millions of humans stretching back millenia was justified and benign… is a ridiculous confection.
Forced or indentured labour (call them slaves or whatever) have been used by every civilization and country in history.
Of course it was never justified and benign. That is why you had events such as the Chinese and Russian revolutions. 'Slaves' of a sort overthrowing their 'masters' and exacting violent revenge. So yes, it would have been crap otherwise why the violence in overthrowing it.
But chattel slavery of the form that happened in the ante-bellum South was something unique in its level of dehumanisation based on race – as you admit. Even more so than perhaps the South American variety. And it carries on through the biologically —status is biologically inherited.
Nevertheless it can be argued that this has made Americans uniquely sensitive to race and racism and aware of it. There is probably far less of the sort of overt 'casual' racial stereotypiing in Anglo Saxon founded countries than in other countries. This is both a good and a bad thing.
South was something unique in its level of dehumanisation based on race – as you admit.
Actually we have no way to know that. The intense darkness of that period is apparent to us because we have access to modern records of it. And indeed in the USA that period has often been close to the centre of their public debate.
But history rarely records the experiences of slaves. For example what do we really know of the lives of the 4m who dug part of the Grand Canal? Time has obscured our view of them, but there is no reason to conclude their experience was any less 'dehumanising' than that of the ante-bellum South.
This is the fatal idiocy of identity politics, it degenerates into an oppression Olympics, when in reality all peoples have their legacy of trauma.
For example what do we really know of the lives of the 4m who dug part of the Grand Canal?
Of course in terms of actual individual experience of and suffering your point is obviously true.
But then you could argue a Kenyan who suffered in the British Gulags in Kenya or was one of the thousands hanged in the 1950s by the British, suffered as much as a Jewish person under Nazi rule. Or those persecuted and then beheaded by French imperialists in Vietnam suffered just as much as those in the White Rose resistance movement under Hitler, in terms of individual experience (losing one's noggin)
However few, including myself, would argue, that on this basis, British or French imperial rule was anywhere close in terms of moral evil to Nazi rule.
I won't put this on the Covid-19 thread because he's not important enough to dampen a celebration, but …
Team Todd screwed up yet again. He spoke live to the media while Ardern and Bloomfield were still speaking. Guess how many carried his press conference live (clue: it's the same number as Covid-19 cases in NZ).
Not the media's fault. It's scheduled invisibility. Genius.
No, you misunderstand. The strategy makes perfect sense because on current internal polling National will do a deal with ACT and get into Parliament on ACT’s coattail. They don’t want to rattle the Epsom electorate and need to massage and soften them up slowly and gently because they’re so used to not voting for that Māori fella with the Pākehā name. We may even have an overhang of one seat!
My distrust of Espiner largely stems back to his writing about Shane Jones during the Labour leadership contest.
Looking at what has happened recently and considering his lengthy years in the gallery he's definitely a connected guy. Interesting that these two stories came out today. But they suggest perhaps desire to promote his podcast and create sensation, or perhaps some intelligence community flexing rather than any serious move against the government.
Quite carefully, neither of the other countries involved exist any more. Wanting to know about the S.I.S. and others in the last 30 years, well, wait another 30 years I guess.
I think planning for the future is great we need to invest in green low costs energy I. E. lower our exporting NZ dollars for carbon I have read green energy will provide heaps of jobs.Education and training is logical .
After his first cabinet meeting as top dog, Chris ‘Chippy’ Hipkins gave his first speech from the podium as Prime Minister. Since his election as Labour leader he has been clear that the government’s agenda would be pared back to “bread and butter issues”. So the decision to can ...
Hipkins says the Government was doing “too much too fast”. Now it’s praying clearing the decks will also clear the way to a better election result. File Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTLDR: He’s done it. New PM Chris Hipkins has ‘cleared the decks’ of all manner of flotsam and ...
A deeply-statistically-flawed poll the other day reported that 43.8 percent do not trust the National Party leader. I say deeply-statistically-flawed because it can be empirically proven that this data is non-correct.Let me show my working.The Newshub-Reid Research poll asks 1,000 random New Zealanders what they reckon. Thus we can infer ...
Hipkins held his expected bonfire of the policies today, ditching the RNZ/TVNZ merger, punting hate speech legislation to the Law Commission (which basicly means it will never happen), and dumping the "bougie dole" social insurance scheme. But along the way, he also shitcanned a key part of the government's emissions ...
Fonterra’s farmers will be relieved that prices in the Global Dairy Trade auction this week have rebounded – up 3.2% across the board. It is the first rise since December 6 The index had fallen 2.8% on January 3 and 0.1% on January 17, to kick off 2023 on a ...
Buzz from the Beehive Announcements on the provision of aid – to Auckland, Turkey and Syria – are recorded on the Beehive website today along with a statement from the PM about his flying visit to Australia. This was Chris Hipkins’ first overseas visit since he took office, enabling him ...
There’s a 19th century flavour to National’s “social investment” strategy, in that it aims to seek capital from philanthropists and charitable organisations – some of them having their own religious agendas- to fund and deliver the provision of social services. Beyond that point, the details are remarkably scarce. Regardless, “social ...
Karl du Fresne writes – The jury has returned its verdict, and it’s emphatic. New Zealanders want the country’s name left as it is. In a Newshub-Reid Research poll, respondents were asked what they thought New Zealand should be known as. Fifty-two percent wanted the country to be ...
Poorly-managed diabetes results in amputations and other expensive hospital treatments – an example of how charging patients to access their medication ends up costing more in the long run. Photo: Getty ImagesTLDR: The phrase ‘penny wise and pound foolish’ is one that applies across much of the Government’s approach to ...
* Dr Bryce Edwards writes- In recent decades the Labour Party has lost its traditional connection with working-class voters, becoming more of a middle-class party of liberalism. This is especially true of Labour’s historic connection with working-class Māori. This is a constituency that the party used to monopolise. ...
In recent decades the Labour Party has lost its traditional connection with working class voters, becoming more of a middle class party of liberalism. This is especially true of Labour’s historic connection with working class Māori. This is a constituency that the party used to monopolise. But ever since the ...
Hi,I wanted to thank everyone who responded to A New Day, a New Cease & Desistover the last five days or so. So many readers have brushed up against MLMs — and they’re something I want to push further into. Did I hear from good old Jonathan Callinan, the ...
As the planet continues to cook, extreme weather events like those we experienced over the last two weeks are set to become more frequent. How we plan our cities to mitigate the risks of climate change will inevitably be more salient going forward, and that will only increase over time. ...
TLDR: For paying subscribers, here’s the key scoops, breaking news and key links I’ve picked up this morning, as at 6.40 am, including:the Reserve Bank of Australia hiked its official cash rate to a 10-year high and warned of more hikes to come, which was more hawkish than expected; RBABP ...
A year ago this week we saw the headline “Mask-wearing 17-year-old egged by aggressive convoy protesters”. As the protestors settled in for their long campout in opposition to vaccination requirements they demonstrated their commitment to standing up for the rights of the individual by verbally abusing, and throwing eggs at, ...
Chris Hipkins has become New Zealand’s 41st prime minister following Ardern’s unexpected resignation—perhaps the bold and unpredictable move Labour needed to improve its election chances. Just six days into his premiership and Labour had its first lead over National in thirteen weeks. National has had a largely uninterrupted run of ...
Good people can come into your life imperceptibly. It can seem they’re just there one day being remarkable. Nat Torkington, for instance.We were both online from the early days, I’m assuming that’s where we first connected; maybe in the UseNet newsgroups, or maybe later through Public Address.But it was when ...
One of New Zealand’s biggest electricity generators, Genesis Energy, has given the go-ahead for a large solar farm near Lauriston on the Canterbury Plains, an hour’s drive south of Christchurch. It is part of Genesis’ strategy of replacing thermal baseload with renewable generation – a mix of wind and solar. ...
Buzz from the Beehive We found just one fresh announcement on the Beehive website this morning, when we made our first visit since 4 February. It was posted in the name of Nanaia Mahuta, our Minister of Foreign Affairs, and explained why she was not at Waitangi at the weekend. ...
Hipkins is doing the right thing for New Zealanders already living in Australia, but there’s now a growing risk of a fresh surge of net emigration of frustrated young Kiwis across the Tasman. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTLDR: Employers here in Aotearoa are desperate to keep their best-trained, most-productive ...
This post contains two guest posts from readers, both of which were sent to us after the flooding on Friday 27 January, both of which discuss how we handle our stormwater. This is a guest post from Ed Clayton, who’s written for us before about Auckland’s relationship with freshwater, ...
TLDR: For paying subscribers, here’s the key breaking news, scoops and links I’ve found since 4 am this morning, as of 7 am, including:A 7.8 magnitude earthquake killed more than 2,200 in Turkey near its border with Syria; ReutersMetService has warned a new cyclone is forming north of Aotearoa that ...
The politics of Waitangi and the Treaty evident over the weekend have moved into a new space. The politics of Waitangi and the Treaty evident over the weekend have moved into a new space. There is a new wave of Maori activism, which sees the Treaty as a living ...
Originally published by The Hill After decades of failure to pass major federal climate legislation, Congress finally broke through last year with the Inflation Reduction Act and its close to $400 billion in clean energy investments. Energy modeling experts estimated that these provisions would help the U.S. cut its carbon pollution ...
Apology Accepted? “I dropped the ball on Friday, I was too slow to be seen …The communications weren’t fast enough – including mine. I’m sorry for that.”–Auckland Mayor Wayne Brown.HOW OFTEN do politicians apologise? Sincerely apologise? Not offer voters the weasel words: “If my actions have offended anyone, then I ...
At first blush, Christopher Luxon’s comment at the parliamentary powhiri at Waitangi this year sounded tone deaf. The Leader of the Opposition in talking about the Treaty of Waitangi described New Zealand as “a little experiment”. It seemed to diminish the treaty and the very idea of our nation. Yet ...
THE (new) Prime Minister said nobody understands what co-governance means, later modified to that there were so many varying interpretations that there was no common understanding. BRIAN EASTON writes: Co-governance cannot be derived from the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It does not use the word. It ...
A brief postscript to yesterday’s newsletter…Watching the predawn speeches just now, the reverence of those speaking and the respectful nature of those listening under umbrellas in the dark. I felt a great sadness at the words from Christopher Luxon last evening still in my head. The singing in the dark accompanied ...
by Don Franks While on holiday,I stayed a few days in Scotland with a friend who showed me one of the country’s great working-class achievements. It was a few miles out of central Edinburgh, a huge cantilever bridge across the river Forth. The Forth Bridge was the first major structure ...
Time To Call A Halt: Chris Hipkins knows that iwi leaders possess the means to make life very difficult for his government. Notwithstanding their objections, however, the Prime Minister’s direction of travel – already clearly signalled by his very public demotion of Nanaia Mahuta – must be confirmed by an emphatic and ...
A chronological listing of news articles posted on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, Jan 29, 2023 thru Sat, Feb 4, 2023. Story of the Week Social change more important than physical tipping points1.5-degree Goal not plausible Photo: CLICCS / Universität Hamburg Limiting global ...
So Long - And Thanks For All The Fish: In the two-and-a-bit years since Jacinda Ardern’s electoral triumph of 2020, virtually every decision she made had gone politically awry. In the minds of many thousands of voters a chilling metamorphosis had taken place. The Faerie Queen had become the Wicked ...
Look at us here on our beautiful islands in the South Pacific at the start of 2023, we have come so far.Ten days ago we saw a Māori Governor General swearing in our new PM and our first Pasifika Deputy PM, ahead of this year’s parliament where they will be ...
The Herald’s headline writers are at it again! A sensible and balanced piece by Liam Dann on the battle against inflation carries a headline that suggests that NZ is doing worse than the rest of the world. Check it out and see for yourself if I am right. Is this ...
Photo by Anna Demianenko on UnsplashTLDR: Here’s my longer reads and listens for the weekend for sharing with The Kaka’s paying subscribers. I’ve opened this one up for all to give everyone a taste of the sorts of extras you get as a full paying subscriber.Subscribe nowDeeper reads and listens ...
Hello from the middle of a long weekend where I’m letting the last few days unspool, not ready, not yet, to give words to the hardest of what we heard.Instead, today, here are some good words from other people.Mother CourageWhen I wrote last year about Mum and Dad’s move to ...
Workers Now is a new slate of candidates contesting this year’s general election. James Robb and Don Franks are the people behind this initiative and they are hoping to put the spotlight on working people’s interests. Both are seasoned activists who have campaigned for workers’ rights over many decades. Here is ...
Buzz from the Beehive Politicians keen to curry favour with Māori tribal leaders have headed north for Waitangi weekend. More than a few million dollars of public funding are headed north, too. Not all of this money is being trumpeted on the Beehive website, the Government’s official website. ...
Insurers face claims of over $500 million for cars, homes and property damaged in the floods. They are already putting up premiums and pulling insurance from properties deemed at high risk of flooding. Photo: Lynn Grieveson/Getty ImagesTLDR: This week in the podcast of our weekly hoon webinar for paying subscribers, ...
Our Cranky Uncle Game can already be played in eight languages: English, Dutch, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and Swedish. About 15 more languages are in the works at various stages of completion or have been offered to be done. To kick off the new year, we checked with how ...
The (new) Prime Minister said nobody understands what co-governance means, later modified to that there were so many varying interpretations that there was no common understanding.Co-governance cannot be derived from the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. It does not use the word. It refers to ‘government’ on ...
It’s that time of the week again when and I co-host our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kaka. Jump on this link for our chat about the week’s news with special guests Auckland Central MP Chloe Swarbrick and Auckland City Councillor Julie Fairey, including:Auckland’s catastrophic floods, which ...
In March last year, in a panic over rising petrol prices caused by Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the government made a poor decision, "temporarily" cutting fuel excise tax by 25 cents a litre. Of course, it turned out not to be temporary at all, having been extended in May, July, ...
This month’s open thread for climate related topics. Please be constructive, polite, and succinct. The post Unforced variations: Feb 2023 first appeared on RealClimate. ...
Buzz from the Beehive Two fresh press releases had been posted when we checked the Beehive website at noon, both of them posted yesterday. In one statement, in the runup to Waitangi Day, Maori Crown Relations Minister Kelvin Davis drew attention to happenings on a Northland battle site in 1845. ...
It’s that time of the week again when I’m on the site for an hour for a chat in an Ask Me Anything with paying subscribers to The Kaka. Jump in for a chat on anything, including:Auckland’s catastrophic floods, which are set to cost insurers and the Government well over ...
Australia’s Treasurer Jim Chalmers (left) has published a 6,000 word manifesto called ‘Capitalism after the Crises’ arguing for ‘values-based capitalism’. Yet here in NZ we hear the same stale old rhetoric unchanged from the 1990s and early 2000s. Photo: Getty ImagesTLDR: The rest of the world is talking about inflation ...
A couple of weeks ago, after NCEA results came out, my son’s enrolment at Auckland Uni for this year was confirmed - he is doing a BSc majoring in Statistics. Well that is the plan now, who knows what will take his interest once he starts.I spent a bit of ...
Kia ora. What a week! We hope you’ve all come through last weekend’s extreme weather event relatively dry and safe. Header image: stormwater ponds at Hobsonville Point. Image via Twitter. The week in Greater Auckland There’s been a storm of information and debate since the worst of the flooding ...
Hi,At 4.43pm yesterday it arrived — a cease and desist letter from the guy I mentioned in my last newsletter. I’d written an article about “WEWE”, a global multi-level marketing scam making in-roads into New Zealand. MLMs are terrible for many of the same reasons megachurches are terrible, and I ...
Time To Call A Halt: Chris Hipkins knows that iwi leaders possess the means to make life very difficult for his government. Notwithstanding their objections, however, the Prime Minister’s direction of travel – already clearly signalled by his very public demotion of Nanaia Mahuta – must be confirmed by an emphatic ...
Open access notables Via PNAS, Ceylan, Anderson & Wood present a paper squarely in the center of the Skeptical Science wheelhouse: Sharing of misinformation is habitual, not just lazy or biased. The signficance statement is obvious catnip: Misinformation is a worldwide concern carrying socioeconomic and political consequences. What drives ...
Mark White from the Left free speech organisation Plebity looks at the disturbing trend of ‘book burning’ on US campuses In the abstract, people mostly agree that book banning is a bad thing. The Nazis did us the favor of being very clear about it and literally burning books, but ...
Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has undergone a stern baptisim of fire in his first week in his new job, but it doesn’t get any easier. Next week, he has a vital meeting in Canberra with his Australian counterpart Anthony Albanese, where he has to establish ...
As PM Chris Hipkins says, it’s a “no brainer” to extend the fuel tax cut, half price public subsidy and the cut to the road user levy until mid-year. A no braoner if the prime purpose is to ease the burden on people struggling to cope with the cost of ...
Buzz from the Beehive Cost-of-living pressures loomed large in Beehive announcements over the past 24 hours. The PM was obviously keen to announce further measures to keep those costs in check and demonstrate he means business when he talks of focusing his government on bread-and-butter issues. His statement was headed ...
Poor Mike Hosking. He has revealed himself in his most recent diatribe to be one of those public figures who is defined, not by who he is, but by who he isn’t, or at least not by what he is for, but by what he is against. Jacinda’s departure has ...
New Zealand is the second least corrupt country on earth according to the latest Corruption Perception Index published yesterday by Transparency International. But how much does this reflect reality? The problem with being continually feted for world-leading political integrity – which the Beehive and government departments love to boast about ...
TLDR: Including my pick of the news and other links in my checks around the news sites since 4am. Paying subscribers can see them all below the fold.In Aotearoa’s political economyBrown vs Fish Read more ...
TLDR: Including my pick of the news and other links in my checks around the news sites since 4am. Paying subscribers can see them all below the fold.In Aotearoa’s political economyBrown vs Fish Read more ...
In other countries, the target-rich cohorts of swinging voters are given labels such as ‘Mondeo Man’, ‘White Van Man,’ ‘Soccer Moms’ and ‘Little Aussie Battlers.’ Here, the easiest shorthand is ‘Ford Ranger Man’ – as seen here parked outside a Herne Bay restaurant, inbetween two SUVs. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / ...
In other countries, the target-rich cohorts of swinging voters are given labels such as ‘Mondeo Man’, ‘White Van Man,’ ‘Soccer Moms’ and ‘Little Aussie Battlers.’ Here, the easiest shorthand is ‘Ford Ranger Man’ – as seen here parked outside a Herne Bay restaurant, inbetween two SUVs. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / ...
Transport Minister and now also Minister for Auckland, Michael Wood has confirmed that the light rail project is part of the government’s policy refocus. Wood said the light rail project was under review as part of a ministerial refocus on key Government projects. “We are undertaking a stocktake about how ...
Sometime before the new Prime Minister Chris Hipkins announced that this year would be about “bread and butter issues”, National’s finance spokesperson Nicola Willis decided to move from Wellington Central and stand for Ohariu, which spreads across north Wellington from the central city to Johnsonville and Tawa. It’s an ...
They say a week is a long time in politics. For Mayor Wayne Brown, turns out 24 hours was long enough for many of us to see, quite obviously, “something isn’t right here…”. That in fact, a lot was going wrong. Very wrong indeed.Mainly because it turns ...
One of the most effective, and successful, graphics developed by Skeptical Science is the escalator. The escalator shows how global surface temperature anomalies vary with time, and illustrates how "contrarians" tend to cherry-pick short time intervals so as to argue that there has been no recent warming, while "realists" recognise ...
Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTLDR: Here’s a quick roundup of the news today for paying subscribers on a slightly frantic, very wet, and then very warm day. In Aotearoa’s political economy today Read more ...
Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTLDR: Here’s a quick roundup of the news today for paying subscribers on a slightly frantic, very wet, and then very warm day. In Aotearoa’s political economy today Read more ...
Tomorrow we have a funeral, and thank you all of you for your very kind words and thoughts — flowers, even.Our friend Michèle messaged: we never get to feel one thing at a time, us grownups, and oh boy is that ever the truth. Tomorrow we have the funeral, and ...
Kia ora e te whānau. Today, we mark the anniversary of the signing of Te Tiriti o Waitangi - and our commitment to working in partnership with Māori to deliver better outcomes and tackle the big issues, together. ...
We’ve just announced a massive infrastructure investment to kick-start new housing developments across New Zealand. Through our Infrastructure Acceleration Fund, we’re making sure that critical infrastructure - like pipes, roads and wastewater connections - is in place, so thousands more homes can be built. ...
The Green Party is joining more than 20 community organisations to call for an immediate rent freeze in Tāmaki Makaurau Auckland, after reports of landlords intending to hike rents after flooding. ...
When Chris Hipkins took on the job of Prime Minister, he said bread and butter issues like the cost of living would be the Government’s top priority – and this week, we’ve set out extra support for families and businesses. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to provide direct support to low-income households and to stop subsidising fossil fuels during a climate crisis. ...
The tools exist to help families with surging costs – and as costs continue to rise it is more urgent than ever that we use them, the Green Party says. ...
Work on the TVNZ/RNZ public media entity to stop; Radio NZ and NZ on Air to receive additional funding Social insurance scheme will not proceed this term The Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill to be withdrawn and not progressed this term. The matter to be ...
The Government is providing a $5 million package of emergency support to help businesses significantly affected by the recent flooding in Auckland. This includes: $3 million for flood recovery payments to help significantly affected businesses $1 million for mental wellbeing support through a boost to the First Steps programme $1 ...
The Government’s Temporary Accommodation Service (TAS) has been activated to support people displaced by the severe flooding and landslips in the Auckland region, Housing Minister Megan Woods says. “TAS is now accepting registrations for people who cannot return to their homes and need assistance finding temporary accommodation. The team will work ...
Prime Minister Chris Hipkins and Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese today held their first bilateral meeting in Canberra. It was Chris Hipkins’ first overseas visit since he took office, reflecting the close relationship between New Zealand and Australia. “New Zealand has no closer partner than Australia. I was pleased to ...
New Zealand will immediately provide humanitarian support to those affected by the earthquakes in Türkiye and Syria, Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta announced today. “Aotearoa New Zealand is deeply saddened by the loss of life and devastation caused by these earthquakes. Our thoughts are with the families and loved ones affected,” ...
An historic Northland pā site with links to Ngāpuhi chief Hongi Hika is to be handed back to iwi, after collaboration by government, private landowners and local hapū. “It is fitting that the ceremony for the return of the Pākinga Pā site is during Waitangi weekend,” said Regional Development Minister ...
The Government is investing in a suite of initiatives to unlock Māori and Pacific resources, talent and knowledge across the science and research sector, Research, Science and Innovation Minister Dr Ayesha Verrall announced today. Two new funds – He tipu ka hua and He aka ka toro – set to ...
Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta departs for India tomorrow as she continues to reconnect Aotearoa New Zealand to the world. The visit will begin in New Delhi where the Foreign Minister will meet with the Vice President Hon Jagdeep Dhankar and her Indian Government counterparts, External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar and ...
Over $10 million infrastructure funding to unlock housing in Whangārei The purchase of a 3.279 hectare site in Kerikeri to enable 56 new homes Northland becomes eligible for $100 million scheme for affordable rentals Multiple Northland communities will benefit from multiple Government housing investments, delivering thousands of new homes for ...
The Government is supporting one of Aotearoa New Zealand’s most significant historic sites, the Waitangi Treaty Grounds, as it continues to recover from the impacts of COVID-19. “The Waitangi Treaty Grounds are a taonga that we should protect and look after. This additional support will mean people can continue to ...
A memorial event at a key battle site in the New Zealand land wars is an important event to mark the progress in relations between Māori and the Crown as we head towards Waitangi Day, Minister for Te Arawhiti Kelvin Davis said. The Battle of Ohaeawai in June 1845 saw ...
More Police officers are being deployed to the frontline with the graduation of 54 new constables from the Royal New Zealand Police College today. The graduation ceremony for Recruit Wing 362 at Te Rauparaha Arena in Porirua was the first official event for Stuart Nash since his reappointment as Police ...
The Government is unlocking an additional $700,000 in support for regions that have been badly hit by the recent flooding and storm damage in the upper North Island. “We’re supporting the response and recovery of Auckland, Waikato, Coromandel, Northland, and Bay of Plenty regions, through activating Enhanced Taskforce Green to ...
Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has welcomed the announcement that Her Royal Highness The Princess Royal, Princess Anne, will visit New Zealand this month. “Princess Anne is travelling to Aotearoa at the request of the NZ Army’s Royal New Zealand Corps of Signals, of which she is Colonel in Chief, to ...
A new Government and industry strategy launched today has its sights on growing the value of New Zealand’s horticultural production to $12 billion by 2035, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor said. “Our food and fibre exports are vital to New Zealand’s economic security. We’re focussed on long-term strategies that build on ...
25 cents per litre petrol excise duty cut extended to 30 June 2023 – reducing an average 60 litre tank of petrol by $17.25 Road User Charge discount will be re-introduced and continue through until 30 June Half price public transport fares extended to the end of June 2023 saving ...
The strong economy has attracted more people into the workforce, with a record number of New Zealanders in paid work and wages rising to help with cost of living pressures. “The Government’s economic plan is delivering on more better-paid jobs, growing wages and creating more opportunities for more New Zealanders,” ...
The Government is providing a further $1 million to the Mayoral Relief Fund to help communities in Auckland following flooding, Minister for Emergency Management Kieran McAnulty announced today. “Cabinet today agreed that, given the severity of the event, a further $1 million contribution be made. Cabinet wishes to be proactive ...
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Kiwirail contract awarded to Chinese company.
This is insane during a time of growing unemployment and economic downturn.
The local companies have great experience of building rail electrification from the Auckland network. And to award the contract to China of all places? Unbelievable. China should be paying us compensation for the economic devastation from their actions relating to covering up their virus from October through to January. They are no friends of ours that's for sure.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12337516
That's the separate departmental mentality for you, that uses cost as it's primary factor. It is inexcusable at present.
If we included the SROI (Social Return on Investment) and other benefits when considering these major contracts, any local supplier would be accurately measured.
A legislative adjustment that changes the way government contracts are awarded, is required, and as soon as possible.
Absolutely agree.
In this case I do wonder exactly what is the real motivation. Kiwirail have had 10 years of being ripped off by their Chinese suppliers (and remember most large Chinese companies are ultimately owned and controlled by the Chinese government).
The Chinese built DL locomotives have been a disaster, from continual mechanical breakdowns to the discovery they were riddled with banned asbestos. Already many have had to be partially rebuilt due to poor components and finish. And the Chinese built wagons were a similar expensive fiasco, with container wagons that were unable to be used as their camber prevented containers being able to be loaded! And the wagons with brakes that applied by themselves when running, causing hugely expensive damage to wheels and track.
I think it is well overdue that the Auditor General had a good look at the cost relationship between Kiwirail and their Chinese suppliers. Anyone who has ever dealt with Chinese procurement will be well aware of what I mean.
The closing of the Dunedin workshops alongside that contract is a succinct example of failings in the system.
There is a need to include an assessment of the delivery of quality goods, remediation of substandard delivery and ongoing service as well.
Molly

Great spin from the losing contenders, regurgitated faithfully by our media.
Downers and Fletchers are listed on the Australian share market. Their ownership has a heavy NZ component and involvement. They employ locally. Chinese firms tend to largely operate as a closed shop.
As as for being 'better at the job', experience tells us otherwise, as per my post above. The media were doing what our PM should have been doing: putting the interests of our country first and applying pressure to KR.
National flush out the SOE's to get what they want asap so it'd be interesting to see how 'blue' the management team is. They can do whatever the F they like basically
Governance is a box that's sooo easy to tick so everybody's all nice and clean.
Thanks for sharing Peter.
The shoddy workmanship/build quality etc, was apparently only 25% cheaper than the local bid.
And… where is Winston on this?
25% cheaper to buy, but if you look at the costs of the required DL locomotive partial rebuilds, the lengthy period they were withdrawn to allow the removal of asbestos, the loss of productivity due to wagons that could not be used and required essentially new decks, the damage to track and wheel sets due to faulty brakes, which themselves required rebuild, all at our expense, I am sure the 25% saving was sucked up very quickly and we are now probably millions out of pocket.
And yet KR continues to purchase DL locos. Very odd.
They've obviously had the big meeting with Todd and every little incident in the country, any little thing is to be used to create a fuss and a presence. From the desperate bullies like Matt King to the twerps like Simeon Brown they're into it.
There's probably a 'brownie points' chart in the caucus room and every mention in the media is a point. A photo is a star and a T snippet will be some special bonus.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12337409
Matt King is a real chip off the Aaron Gilmore/Mike Sabin block and the 'right stuff' for team Toddy.
I look forward to his ongoing contributions as to what's left behind in the NZ police force that he identifies with still and all around him in team national.
Call me suspicious, but several of Guyon Espiner’s pieces have involved “scandals” involving constituents of the Government Coalition. NZ First’s Trust and financial structure, and now the “SIS 80s break ins” linked to the then Labour Govt. of David Lange.
https://shorthand.radionz.co.nz/the-service-podcast/index.html
Perhaps todays voters will not care about such things as the Cold War “pie and Penthouse” era SIS–I see RNZ could not resist running again the 1974 night photo of Soviet diplomat Dimitri Razgovorov allegedly legging it after meeting Dr Sutch!
Sure Espiner’s story may have naturally unfolded and been ready to roll, but few investigative writers drop a significant piece without consideration of timing. My view is there are various ways to try and undermine an administration. The ongoing exposure of the media stitch up of Jeremy Corbyn–in collusion with right wing UK Labour people–shows how this can work.
So you think that these illegal (although no doubt justified) actions should have remained buried forever? Gee, I thought we lived in a free and open society.
If anything, this story is a positive for the Labour government of that time, as it dispels the myth that some still hold that they were puppets of Moscow. Shows the truth that they were realists.
Don't be naive Peter Chch. TMs point is looking at whether Guyon Espiner is basically just a Labour destroyer, despite giving signals that he is passionate about telling the facts, the truth, transparency etc.
We need to know the present news, and then about the present background of it; we already know about the past, and it can be referred to briefly but left for later to be brought forward and reviewed for a fuller picture.
Greywarshark. I put that that badly in my post. But absolutely no, I do not think he is a Labour destroyer.
His article is of importance and interest and the timing is not relevant to the Labour led government of today. It is to Espiners credit he investigated and published now. We need more real journalism like his, regardless of our political views.
Agreed. Espiner is a good journalist, doing his job.
He picks and chooses when to do his job and given way to many soft rides so he comes across as lazy at best or owned by not being consistent.
He kept his SOE jobs through 3 terms of national so he plays the game. Campbell and many others didn't.
Yeah I think I'm probably naive, but still suspicious of Espiner. When he left being host on Radionz he started into something that I felt seemed like a rightish partisan choice, forget what it was.
In agreement. Thanks Peter ChCh. He maybe a bit of a stirrer at times but he is a very good journo.
Yes. For those who have forgotten, this is from the 2017 election. Steven Joyce and his "hole", memorably challenged by Guyon, and nobody in all of the media coverage ever did it better:
Espiner, Joyce and Robertson on Morning Report
Put a reply right at the bottom, but yeh- odd story with more to be teased out about how and why it broke, but not necessarily malign.
…Peter Chch @3.1
No. If I thought the SIS story should be buried I would have said so. I have no brief at all for the NZSIS and its history of bungling and pursuing non threatening subjects, and not pursuing some more obvious ones!
The consensus from those that replied to my post seems to be that Espiner’s story can stand alone, and I’m fine with that.
Actually someone from the SIS is on record for acknowledging as much in the aftermath of the Christchurch shootings. It might have been Director, Rebecca Kitteridge.
The history of the SIS leaves a lot to be desired. I was one of those personally impacted in the 80s and I suspect you were too. We will have to wait until the end of the 5 part series to be able to pass judgement on Guyon Espiner's handling of the subject. He's a good journo if a bit uneven with his partisanship at times.
Also the Rainbow Warrior incident and going nuclear free.
Yes Labour were realists then and are realists now.
Journalists ought to be applying extra scrutiny to whoever is in government. Investigative stories like that take many months so I would not be reading too much into timing.
And remember how the righties all accused Nicky Hager of publishing things at times they did not like…
Investigative journalists and writers are needed to write about incidents which have been covered up providing what they write is factual.
People will read into what they think regardless of the timing.
On 17 June it is 45 years since the Colin Moyle incident. The full police evidence has not yet been released. Moyle has not recieved an apology from the police either. I think how the police handled the matter is of public interest. I also feel that there are documents of public interest when it comes to the planting of the cartridge case in the false conviction of Arthur Allan Thomas.
Yes Treetop, 100% agree. NZ Police have at times acted appallingly.
Re Arthur Allen Thomas. Not just the cartridge case, the 'discovery' of the stub axle in the Thomas farm tip also was very suspect although seldom gets a mention. And to think that corrupt scumbag Hutton was praised so highly by Mike Bush, former Police Commissioner. Unbelievable.
Who is the watch dog of historical police cover ups?
How do you get a historical police matter to be investigated by an independent source?
I thought that a police commissioner or the PM could order an inquiry.
I do not like it when a situation becomes political because the person who has been treated appallingly is the person who has to fight for justice and this takes energy when the complainant is usually partially burntout.
A private investigator costs money but an investigative journalist does not.
Where would Teina Pora be if McKinnel did not intervene?
It is important to keep an eye on the ball – the mirror ball that is the election. It's very Labour purist to decide to follow some lead of misbehaviour or even crime of the past and get excited about that, and forget about being pragmatic.
Pragmatic is real, it's now which is chaotic and we must stay steady on course; the other matters may be festering but bringing them up now is suspect to me.
NZ has needs like never before. Stick with thinking about those all left supporters and concentrate on being in defence mode, not stir-mode.
But what if you were personally affected by a historical issue and you are still being affected and you approached those who were in a position to investigate and they were not diligent?
As for stir mode, were the unresolved to resurface due to it being part of something else really important would victim blaming occur?
I would go further than that and say: those in a position to investigate often chose not to do so because they were protecting their own.
I want to think that silencing the complainant by not investigating has markedly reduced.
The misuse of power is horrible if you are the recepient.
And National's current front bench, particularly in the current climate, have questions to answer there.
"Call me suspicious, but several of Guyon Espiner’s pieces have involved “scandals” involving constituents of the Government Coalition. NZ First’s Trust and financial structure, "
Do you not think this was worth checking out it is kosher?
It has nothing to do with Espiner's timing. NZF was leaking like a sieve.
Is anyone talking about what it will mean for NZ if we eradicate the coronavirus and no useful vaccine is developed? Or are we avoiding this until we see what happens with the vaccine?
Do you mean if it is eradicated worldwide, or eliminated from NZ?
I meant eradicate rather than eliminated in NZ. I thought eliminated meant no current outbreaks but still the potential for them, whereas eradicated meant there is no virus left here. I don't know how those are assessed/measured.
But either way, is anyone talking about if there is no more covid in NZ and there is no vaccine?
Ta. The public health language matches what I used above: 'Eradicated' means it exists nowhere in the world. 'Eliminated' means only within a specific area, like NZ.
Elimination only in NZ just puts more pressure on our border controls, quarantine, ongoing community testing and fast tracing capabilities.
The current kerfuffle over the Avatar imports shows we may need more firm quarantine arrangements than the Ministry of Health's culture is capable of managing. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/121746854/surprise-sequel-to-avatar-hotel-saga-as-guests-claim-stuffup
Some regional public health units are refusing to use the national Covid case software that the Ministry had to rapidly develop. Again, more firmness may be needed – perhaps after today's cabinet meeting. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/418222/concern-over-dhbs-reluctance-to-use-government-s-contact-tracing-system
thanks.
Restating the question then, is anyone talking about what happens if NZ eliminates covid and there is no vaccine (say in the next 5 years), or are we waiting and seeing?
Assuming we sort out the quarantining issues, what next? Are we basing out current responses on the idea that a vaccine will be available in the next few years?
I would have thought that pinning hopes on a vaccine is foolhardy.
We would need to progress with the notion the disease has to be managed, along the lines of the 14 day quarantine and checking temps/testing that we do now.
I'm guessing the BAU economics crowd are working off the assumption that we will have a vaccine (backed up by the idea that if we don't, we should let covid back in at some point).
More interested in what progressives are thinking and if anyone is considering it seriously.
NZ can probably eliminate Covid-19 with the current border restrictions. Once the borders are open even with a NZ and Australian bubble the risk rises to not eliminating the virus in NZ.
Which animals can get the virus from humans and then pass it onto humans is a worry.
It is not a time for being complacent in jeopardizing the hard won gains in the Covid-19 fight.
good grief, that article is a hodge podge of he said/she said. The MoH response looks standardly inadequate, but the 'we had to walk through a crowd of people wearing masks' story doesn't quite add up either.
The comment from the apartment wing dweller is more concerning than the earlier one who just heard some people with a US accent in the hotel reception area.
Main problem seems to be that the MoH is reduced to taking the word of others about whether proper quarantine was maintained. Not good enough.
With the hotel manager playing the blame game by refering queries to MOH.
Hotel paid by the production company – part of the confused accountability.
And MoH referring queries to the hotel. Pythonesque.
Radionz story on spies under the bed.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/the-service/418496/john-daniell-on-growing-up-around-spies
The image of the guys lying on a bed with a bed cover printed the same as the wallpaper reminds me of a Gary Larson cartoon where enemy insects come to the door and the mother sits in her armchair unnoticed because her dress and the armchair match the wallpaper. That Gary, he has super-vision for a different angle to everything we think we know.
This Cold War thing and spies and… is depressingly cyclic. Can we never break out; (plaintively)?
Here is Gary Larson in the Simpsons with the satirical approach we so need. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzFBzaAJfA
His Top 20 Quotes: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVfdzPDAeI0
On Wednesday 9.30 pm on the Duke channel there has been a programme on spies. It is well worth a watch and has accounts from people who were involved.
eek look out nz the russians are coming again !!
Listened to this 'report' on Natrad this morning (https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018749682/sergei-and-yulia-skripal-reportedly-in-new-zealand) with growing bemusement.
Was this actual news?
Very peculiar.
Very peculiar
After spending all that time being protected from the Russians in a safe house, and not appearing on any news platform for safety reasons they are suddenly outed as living in NZ
Theyre already here Weston
15,000 Russians already live in NZ.To think that the Skripals could live here anonymously is ridiculous.If the Brits cant provide safety with their much more beefed up resources, why should we be able to?And why should we?
I think its total bullshit so that everyone can now just forget about the Skripals
Questions about the spies here. Who sent them, who agreed? Why? Send them to Australia, they would love to be anti-communist wherever they could.
We can't stay still waiting for a vaccine
By keeping the borders closed we're effectively cutting off international tourism and the foreign student industry.
Meanwhile import/export goes on as usual
Limited numbers are allowed in according to our capacity to test, track , and isolate
And viable treatments could change the scene considerably .Like HIV no vaccine, but good treatments
Meanwhile we look at restructuring our domestic economy I suppose
Sorry Weka , I'm no expert, no "inside" info , just "supposes"
Cuba might give us a few clues
Cuba at 11.4 million has managed to survive for decades despite the US embargo and sanctions.
They have their own pharmaceutical industry, a health system lauded internationally, and a commitment to organic food production.
Like us they have been heavily dependent on tourism .Unlike us they do not charge huge amounts for foreign students attending their much praised medical schools
We should keep an eye on Cuba. They've handled Covid 19 brilliantly on meagre resources, and after years of imposed economic privations have come up with innovative strategies to deliver good outcomes for the people
They continue to come up with new ideas
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/28/organic-or-starve-can-cubas-new-farming-model-provide-food-security
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/06/04/leading-by-example-cuba-in-the-covid-19-pandemic/
I really really really don't think we should look at Cuba for inspiration.
Why Chris?
Well i guess if we found a benefactor like the USSR that pumped up the Cuban economy for political reasons, then maybe. In the absence of such, I would not recommend it.
Take a look at Cubas appallingly real situation, not the bs stats from a dictatorial government.
The USSR left Cuba decades ago.They then had to make it on their own.
Which they've done pretty damned well
Really? Have you actually been there and seen the empty shops? Try something as simple as getting a coffee in a coffee shop. Their economy is a joke. Like so many extreme right or extreme left economies, they are a beautiful peoples in a beautiful country ruled by an out of touch elite.
The USSR propped it up but with the end of their empire Cuba reverted to what it otherwise would have been.
Life expectancy in this poor country is 78.66 years
Same in US (7th richest country in the world);78.54
Child mortality is at a lower rate than the US
Cuba 4 per 1000 live births
US 5.8 per 1000 live births
Suicide rate s
Cuba 10.1 per 100,000 (less than us)
US 21.4 per 100,000
Wikipedia
forget about the trappings of consumerism, if you want your children to stay alive, to live longer and not be driven to suicide its Cuba hands down
Quoting such stats is meaningless.
For example, with suicide, just look at Durkheims famous study on suicide, that found vastly different recorded suicide rates reflected cultural factors more so than any real difference in numbers. With Cuba being a Roman Catholic country, that would suggest the authorities would be more reluctant to record a death as suicide than from other causes.
Life expectancy is also a meaningless comparison. Vastly different ethnic mix, a largely rural hot country cf a heavily industriaised country and could one even rely on a dictatorship to be honest as to stats?
As I say, visit Cuba, then post your views from first hand evidence and after talking to the locals. You may well have a different viewpoint then.
Just outta curiosity, how many Cubans want to move to the US? How many US residents want to move to Cuba? Of the Cubans that have moved to the US, how many want to move back to Cuba?
Did you read Havana Bay with Arkady by Martin Cruz Smith.? He built a crime novel on the Cuban-Russian mix.
Greywarshark.
Yes! Fantastic novel, although Polar Star is my favourite from that author. All in ChCh Library for anyone interested.
Not at all suprising you should bang on about the USSR..yet forget the American embargo against Cuba..
https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/11/1050891
I am not so fussed about open borders.It remains to be see whether either tourism or education has been an overseas earner worth having. Despite our substantial population increases in the last 15 years my understanding is that GDP per head has remained pretty flat. We need to transition to a high wage economy not a high people import economy
RBaronCV +100
We need to transition to a high wage economy
Would be very nice indeed. But in promoting that idea you need to take into account the demographics, because people at different stages of their life behave rather differently in economic impact.
Young adults, under about 40, spend more, borrow more and drive up consumption as they form families, establish households and have children. They are early in their working life, have lower skills in general and lower productivity. On the back of this demographic you can have a consumption led economy.
Middle adults are all about saving and investment. They pay down the mortgage, build equity in investments and save as much as they can. They now have two decades of work experience, are much more productive and pay higher taxes. On this demographic you can have a high value export led economy.
Late adults, from 65 onward suddenly drop out of the job market and switch from saving to drawing down on their investments. The Japanese worked out an ingenious solution to this; they used automation to locate much of their manufacturing directly into their overseas markets, off shoring their economy.
These are broad and crude generalisations of course, but what they tell you is that the raw population numbers alone are not enough to understand what is going to drive a 'high wage' economy.
Because all the developed nations now have birth rates below replacement, populations are experiencing for the first time in human history a 'demographic inversion', more older people than younger ones. It's not obvious at all that every developed nation can use an export or offshore led strategy to support their economies.
New Zealand is an interesting exception to this pattern, we have maintained a reasonably flat demographic profile by two processes, one was by exporting older workers overseas (over a quarter of all people born in NZ no longer live here), and at the same time importing younger workers to replace them. Immigration has been a critical factor in supporting a balance of local domestic consumption, and export driven income. (What we have never managed is to develop an authentic off-shored economy, but that may be a useful clue in developing a strategy.)
Like you I'm no fan of increasing NZ's population for the sake of it, but in proposing change it's vital to start thinking about the implications.
To those who are protesting against civil outrages and bad government.Here is a song about a protester from the Vietnam war. This is just one of the past protests and the words written by NZr Willow Macky about an Australian with values.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbuCzAQjIAE
It is important that we keep trying to alter the direction that our world is constantly turning to that leads to destruction for the many. We did try in the 20th century, and though you don't understand that there may not be a 21st century for people, please take our word for this and keep thinking and working as if humans and animals will live on to their good potential. You will meet the best people you will ever know on these protests and the environmental work, so keep working together doing important work though you will have realised it won't make you rich!
ZERO!!! No new cases, the last known active case is now considered recovered.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/121752568/coronavirus-last-remaining-active-covid19-case-has-recovered
Celebration!
by Kool & The Gang
Great to see the Greens effectively put Labour on notice that they potentially have other choices in forming a coalition with National:
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/06/greens-co-leader-james-shaw-reveals-what-it-would-take-to-work-with-national.html
All those months that Shaw put in with Simon Upton and Todd Muller to get the ETS (such as it is) up and running have paid off.
Um, yeah …
Sure, outdoing their current partners is an awfully low bar, but it's still higher than a chalk line on the ground.
Heh.
Mittens knows there's change in the wind.
This is going to be very interesting to watch, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/07/minneapolis-city-council-defund-police-george-floyd they're going to dismantle the current police system and replace with something new. Saying incremental change hasn't worked, so sweeping changes are needed, and will come.
This'll be massive if it works – so prepare for pushback.
Replace with what?
Nothing is not an option.
The option of a fully defunded Police force is that the hard left can occupy the streets with chanting and the hard right can come onto the streets with AR15s.
There will be plenty of city-wide initiatives that come out of this, but the bills that are already in play at the federal level are where this contest needs to go.
We re already deep into danger of nothing meaningful coming out of all these protests as much as nothing did from the last upsurge of #Blacklivesmatter.
If the moronity stops it will be a gift for Biden to support the proposed police reforms now in the House. If it will continue it will give a good bump to Trump on a straight law and order platform like he has pledged.
Indeed. One of their most obvious problems is the 17,000 odd police agencies they have. Way too fragmented.
Something that works.
After a particularly deadly year in 1995, Camden’s Cathedral of Immaculate Conception began illuminating one candle for each homicide victim. In 2012, the year ended with 67 candles—a rate of about 87 murders per 100,000 residents, which ranked Camden fifth nationwide.
But on New Year’s 2018, just 22 candles were lit: The city’s murder rate fell to its lowest since 1987. The number of annual killings has been in decline since 2012; so have robberies, aggravated assaults, violent crimes, property crimes, and non-fatal shooting incidents.
So what’s happening in this city, which for many years has been deemed among the dangerous in America? Thomson, who took the helm of the Camden police force in 2008, says the biggest factor may have been the change in structure of the department itself. In 2013, the Camden Police Department was disbanded, reimagined, and born again as the Camden County Police Department, with more officers at lower pay—and a strategic shift toward “community policing.”
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/01/what-happened-to-crime-in-camden/549542/
some commenters are so freaking unimaginative.
Maybe have the new “police” live in the communities they serve as a basic start.
Out of control thuggery. Well overdue a root and branch jobbie.
Long before former officer Derek Chauvin knelt on George Floyd’s neck, the Third Precinct in south Minneapolis had a reputation for being home to police officers who played by their own rules.
One officer kicked a handcuffed suspect in the face, leaving his jaw in pieces. Officers beat and pistol-whipped a suspect in a parking lot on suspicion of low-level drug charges. Others harassed residents of a south Minneapolis housing project as they headed to work, and allowed prostitution suspects to touch their genitals for several minutes before arresting them in vice stings.
These and more substantiated incidents, detailed in court records and police reports, help explain a saying often used by fellow cops to describe the style of policing practiced in the Third: There’s the way that the Minneapolis Police Department does things, and then there’s the way they do it “in Threes.”
https://www.startribune.com/third-precinct-served-as-playground-for-renegade-cops/571076562/
This is exhaustive about Camden, New Jersey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camden,_New_Jersey
Some very telling images. If changes can be made in Camden they can be made here.
https://www.google.com/search?q=camden+new+jersey+usa+about&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjor6qztfHpAhUXMLcAHQz3BxIQ2-cCegQIABAA&
The article IFL linked to, and you approvingly replied to is quite specific in supporting police abolition.
No police, no prisons, and presumably no courts. Do you support this McFlock?
Because in the absence of state law enforcement, communities will quickly revert back to armed gangs of young men imposing their own arbitrary rules.
It will of course be an imaginative experiment.
I think you'll find that most of those abolitionist groups do not see "zero police and prisons" as being synonymous with "armed gangs instead". I mean, it wouldn't compute in your head that there might be a different way of achieve peace in a society, but that doesn't mean that they don't have some valid ideas.
Additionally, as the Cambden example illustrates, eliminating the current police force doesn't even mean replacing it with a police force of a completely different nature to the current alienated and combative model.
So your strict interpretation of a single line in a report as being representative of an entire movement wanting "armed gangs" roaming neighbourhoods is just another example of your own conviction that there is no alternative to present evils.
It's very clear that everyone is rejecting 'incremental reforms', so I followed the link in the article above, the one you so strongly supported, and it lands here:
That's very explicit … in fairly short order it means no police, no law enforcement. If this is what BLM is really demanding then do you support this?
just another example of your own conviction that there is no alternative to present evils.
Actually no. In numerous posts over the years I've outlined in considerable detail many alternatives to the current order of things …. sadly most of them too radical for the unimaginative. These days I hold back a fair bit.
But you haven't been holding back have you. No at every opportunity you have jumped at the chance to play apologist for the police. Credibility none you have.
I actually do support that for current police departments. They need to be cleaned out, shut down, and replaced with something better. Whether that is a more community-oriented style of policing, or even something an actual anarchist might come up with, I look forward to seeing a variety of approaches. None of which will revolve around armed gangs of youths (well, no more than currently).
Because most of them will be better than the current model of paramilitary policing as an occupying force. And the ones that aren't will be discontinued quickly, as the "there is no alternative" terror will have been overcome by a multitude of viable alternatives.
What if all people became so educated and refined that the mere thought of committing an offense against another was more shameful than the act itself?
Preventing crime is obviously a far more desirable strategy than punishing it and I'd strongly support anything that might be shown to move us in that direction. This position is consistent with my track record here for many years.
It's fairly clear too that the USA has moved too far down the path of punishment to the neglect of prevention. They need to restore that balance.
But this does not mean there will be no crime. You know that perfectly well. There is a reason why clubs and bars have bouncers, and why all functioning human societies have laws and means of enforcing them. Arguing that the police should be abolished when you can't even begin to outline 'something better' is beyond wrong. It's insane.
No. It's letting communities find their own solutions to their own problems, be it a phased replacement like in Cambden or whatever they come up with in the way of community involvement and control.
Because paramilitary policing isn't working.
Watching the same injustices get perpetrated by the same broken system year after year and doing nothing about it is insanity.
It's letting communities find their own solutions to their own problems, be it a phased replacement like in Cambden or whatever they come up with in the way of community involvement and control.
Ah … separate development. Sounds familiar? Does this mean white supremacists get to have their own 'community solutions' too? I somehow don't think that is what you have in mind.
This of course doesn't rule out more sophisticated policing systems that have strong community input and advice, and adapt themselves appropriately to the situations they are operating in. That isn't easy and takes a considerable effort to develop the trust, communication and institutional memory to make it work well.
But that's the kind of incrementalism BLM has explicitly rejected. They're demanding police abolition, and there isn't much wriggle room in that.
At bedrock the whole concept of the nation state is predicated on it's right to make laws and operate them on behalf of all it's citizens. It is the state that 'owns and controls' the justice system, not any arbitrary number of identity groups.
BLM is not a homogeneous group, that's your first problem.
Secondly, municipalities in the US already determine their own policing methods. That's why some have a PD, some have a sherriff's department, some have constables, and some have two or thee organisations over the same jurisdictions. And yes, this has resulted in some forces consisting of white supremacists. That's a problem with the current system.
Thirdly, incrementalism failed. That's why obviousl;y defenceless people are still being murdered.
BLM is not a homogeneous group
Unfortunately they're not very clear on what 'defund the police' actually might mean, but here you have it leading on their main website. You kind of have to take it seriously and ask yourself exactly what you are supporting.
Secondly, municipalities in the US already determine their own policing methods.
Yeah that's a big part of the problem. Somewhere up above I mentioned the 18,000 different law enforcement agencies in the USA. I really recommend this link on gypsy cops. It's an eye-opener.
In other words community driven policing is already a strong feature of US law enforcement and this is the less than wonderful outcome.
Yes and no. How many US police officers are actually responsible to the communities they police, or live in those communities?
But then we might start looking at why that is, and the roots of US policing vs the roots of the London Met. Both developed to respond to two very different labour problems in the defense of the ruling class.
How many US police officers are actually responsible to the communities they police, or live in those communities?
Well in the majority of these smaller law enforcement agencies it's my understanding that the senior officer, typically a Sheriff, is an elected position, directly accountable to the community.
As for the ordinary police officers I have no direct link for this, but again I believe that there has been a real movement toward hiring an ethnic diversity of officers in recent decades. And it would only be logical to think the majority would live locally. Happy to see evidence to the contrary.
Yeah, apparently not.
Edit: note the double-whammy that most officers are white, and white officers are the ones most likely to live outside the jurisdictions they “serve”.
OK so in reviewing your responses it's clear that you have rejected any political reform process, and by implication are supporting the full disbanding of all police forces as demanded by BLM and many other liberal left voices at the moment.
Or if you have any other alternative ideas you really have failed to express them.
All well and good; you'll get to punch nazis to your heart's content.
YouGov Poll:
65% of all respondents opposed cutting police force funding (just 16 % of Democrats and 15 % of Republicans supported the idea)
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/06/01/police-reform-america-poll
Defunding Police Depts:
Crosstabs: Views by Ethnicity:
………….. Oppose … Unsure ….. Support
White ……. 75% ………. 13% ……….. 12%
Black …….. 36% ………. 31% ………… 33%
Hispanic . 42% ……….. 40% ………… 17%
Other …….. 68% ………. 14% …………. 17%
It's not my role to determine what replaces a force of occupation. That's for the people being occupied to decide.
RL, would traditional police systems be part of your vision for a future hyper-energised global world order? You seem to have imagination to burn when it comes to making giant leaps, but a poverty of imagination wrt small steps.
A 2014 article on "alternatives to the modern police system", for open minds.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/police-brutality-cop-free-world-protest-199465/
More food food thought here:
What you completely omit from that narrative is that European and American societies were the first ones to outlaw chattel slavery. They are the societies that invented industrialisation that made slavery obsolete, and then had the great internal debate (and in the case of the USA a very bloody Civil War) to end it.
This is an extraordinary achievement. Slavery in many forms, was a standard feature of virtually all societies since the invention of agriculture.
Ending such a deeply embedded institution was not just a simple political and legal matter. It had strong cultural roots that have taken generations to wither away. In the USA abolition was just 150 years ago, the restoration of full civil rights just 60 years ago. The growth of a strong black middle class is another remarkable feature of this period, culminating in the election of a black President in this past decade.
In the face of such undeniable progress, to pretend the USA is somehow unique in it's 'original sin of racist slavery' is nothing but a perverse fruit of indentity politics run to a toxic eruption.
[Auto-Moderation triggered by too may links]
Yikes.
You're only supposed to lick the boot, not deep throat it.
Actually, China seems to have been the first to outlaw slavery. Chattel or otherwise.
You are quite correct. Both Ming and Qing rules outlawed it respectively, but slavery was never on the level of that which Europeans practiced in the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Nor did it rise to the same evil level of dehumanisation as the trans-Atlantic trade.
'Slavery' of course in terms of indentured labour into the 20th century in China. It was in fact indentured labour often called slavery. While morally reprehensible, it is different in nature from chattel slavery practiced in North America.
The British and French used vast amounts of forced labour in their colonies in the 20th century – is that slavery?
And if we categorise forced and indentured labour as slavery, as the white right do when it comes to non-Western cultures, then we should apply the same to the US —chain gangs, prison labour etc, then some have said that what was in essence slavery (to a far greater extent than what occurred in China say), persisted in the USA right up until WW2. Excellent documentary 'Slavery by Another Name"
http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/home/
As I said slavery was deeply embedded in all societies, stretching back over at least 10 millenia, therefore it would be very surprising if it had come to an absolute end everywhere all at once, in every conceivable form. Your own reference to the Chinese experience demonstrates just how many times it was outlawed, and yet how persistently it reappeared.
But since industrialisation, the US Civil War and the emancipation movement, the rejection and trend away from slavery, toward a full and permanent recognition of it's evils is undeniable.
If you read the reference fully it seems various Chinese dynasties repeatedly attempted to abolish slavery … the final date reads:
Still it is fair to say that while slavery was a very common feature of pre-industrial life, most people recognised it as a very undesirable state to fall into. It's history is, like most things, way more complex than we imagine and at various times it was abolished by more enlightened rulers, only to reappear later.
It was industrialisation that ensured it's suppression from modern life, by making it obsolete.
Except that prison slavery is still a decent chunk of the domestic US economy. So one wonders exactly how much the system has changed.
It was industrialisation that ensured it's suppression from modern life, by making it obsolete.
That is true to an extent. One can say that for civilization to advance beyond the hunter gatherer, there needed to be a group of people who did the shitty work, and allowed others to philosophize, create, paint, sculpture, and design. Such as the case in feudal Europe and Asia, and ancient Greece and Rome.
However one could still run a pretty much pre-industrial society without the form of chattel and heritable slavery seen in the Americas –China is one example.
Yes, agree, it was a very unfortunate position to be, whether a galley slave of Ancient Rome, a Russian serf, or a Chinese peasant in pre-revolutionary China.
"European and American societies were the first ones to outlaw chattel slavery. w chattel slavery"
There is a wide spectrum relating to the level of dehumanization, when it comes to 'slavery' in all of its many historical forms. There is the Greco Roman type, the indentured servitude type that use to be found in China, the Islamic type, indentured labour in the South Pacific, 'blackbirding' in Queensland, Chinese coolies in the US, and the type of slavery practiced in the ante-bellum US south.
The last one on the list above was by far the most dehumanising and racist and hopeless for those enslaved, for a whole host of reasons. That dehumisation has continued right up through the past 150 years through Jim Crow, lynchings, the indignities of segregation, and police brutality.
Whereas, say, for Chinese indentured servants such as mui tsai etc, they could well have married into the families they worked for and their children and definitely their children's children seamlessly become part of the mainstream without any stigma attached to them. In most other cases slaves were still considered human, not sub-human
Even conservative US Christians make this point and draw distinctions when try to mitigate Paul's apparent defence of it ( Epistle of Paul to Philemon for example). That it was vastly different in nature to that which existed in the ante-bellum Southern states. And they are right.
If slavery in ancient times was so very benign why did various dynasties see fit to try and outlaw your 'Chinese indentured servants’ ?
Oh look, maybe because Chinese slavery was just confined to gentile 'household work'. For instance, the Grand Canal wasn't dug by the fairies.
Your efforts to whitewash slavery in China is understandable, but scarcely supported by even a brief overview.
As for slavery in the ante-bellum US, there is no quibble it intensified into an especially dehumanised version. In the early part of the industrial revolution technologies like deep water navigation and the advent of rapid economic growth in Europe resulted in an especially toxic period. Yet it was never sustainable in any sense of the word … it came to an end most abruptly with the cost of many lives in a bloody civil war.
But somehow pretending this period was categorically uniquely evil, and that by comparison the slavery of millions of humans stretching back millenia was justified and benign… is a ridiculous confection.
The Yuan rulers were Mongolian
Forced or indentured labour (call them slaves or whatever) have been used by every civilization and country in history.
Of course it was never justified and benign. That is why you had events such as the Chinese and Russian revolutions. 'Slaves' of a sort overthrowing their 'masters' and exacting violent revenge. So yes, it would have been crap otherwise why the violence in overthrowing it.
But chattel slavery of the form that happened in the ante-bellum South was something unique in its level of dehumanisation based on race – as you admit. Even more so than perhaps the South American variety. And it carries on through the biologically —status is biologically inherited.
Nevertheless it can be argued that this has made Americans uniquely sensitive to race and racism and aware of it. There is probably far less of the sort of overt 'casual' racial stereotypiing in Anglo Saxon founded countries than in other countries. This is both a good and a bad thing.
South was something unique in its level of dehumanisation based on race – as you admit.
Actually we have no way to know that. The intense darkness of that period is apparent to us because we have access to modern records of it. And indeed in the USA that period has often been close to the centre of their public debate.
But history rarely records the experiences of slaves. For example what do we really know of the lives of the 4m who dug part of the Grand Canal? Time has obscured our view of them, but there is no reason to conclude their experience was any less 'dehumanising' than that of the ante-bellum South.
This is the fatal idiocy of identity politics, it degenerates into an oppression Olympics, when in reality all peoples have their legacy of trauma.
For example what do we really know of the lives of the 4m who dug part of the Grand Canal?
Of course in terms of actual individual experience of and suffering your point is obviously true.
But then you could argue a Kenyan who suffered in the British Gulags in Kenya or was one of the thousands hanged in the 1950s by the British, suffered as much as a Jewish person under Nazi rule. Or those persecuted and then beheaded by French imperialists in Vietnam suffered just as much as those in the White Rose resistance movement under Hitler, in terms of individual experience (losing one's noggin)
However few, including myself, would argue, that on this basis, British or French imperial rule was anywhere close in terms of moral evil to Nazi rule.
I won't put this on the Covid-19 thread because he's not important enough to dampen a celebration, but …
Team Todd screwed up yet again. He spoke live to the media while Ardern and Bloomfield were still speaking. Guess how many carried his press conference live (clue: it's the same number as Covid-19 cases in NZ).
Not the media's fault. It's scheduled invisibility. Genius.
No, you misunderstand. The strategy makes perfect sense because on current internal polling National will do a deal with ACT and get into Parliament on ACT’s coattail. They don’t want to rattle the Epsom electorate and need to massage and soften them up slowly and gently because they’re so used to not voting for that Māori fella with the Pākehā name. We may even have an overhang of one seat!
Do you think Hoots is finding the going a lot tougher than he thought it would be?
My distrust of Espiner largely stems back to his writing about Shane Jones during the Labour leadership contest.
Looking at what has happened recently and considering his lengthy years in the gallery he's definitely a connected guy. Interesting that these two stories came out today. But they suggest perhaps desire to promote his podcast and create sensation, or perhaps some intelligence community flexing rather than any serious move against the government.
Quite carefully, neither of the other countries involved exist any more. Wanting to know about the S.I.S. and others in the last 30 years, well, wait another 30 years I guess.
Kia Ora
Newshub.
They only care about the 1%.
I agree we have to have a great defence at our borders to keep the virus out of Aotearoa.
Its having positive effects in Aotearoa to.
Ka kite Ano.
Kia Ora
Te Ao Maori Marama.
I hope Maori Media is given the support they deserve.
That's cool $20 million invested to make North land roads safer.
Its good to see the Palmerston north council working with the local tangata whenua.
It didn't take to long for Maori to be able to greet Maori with a Hongi. again
Ka kite Ano
Kia Ora
Newshub.
I think planning for the future is great we need to invest in green low costs energy I. E. lower our exporting NZ dollars for carbon I have read green energy will provide heaps of jobs.Education and training is logical .
Ka kite Ano.
Kia Ora
Newshub.
The bad state of our hospital buildings show that A government that puts money first is not fit to run our country.
Compassion and emperthy are excellent quality's to have.
One wonders if the staff are national supporter
That'sis cool using drones to help in conversation of turtles.
Ka kite Ano
Kia Ora
Te Ao Maori Marama.
Its was published that the Gisborne DC was consulting Iwi and tangata using the media to pedal their lies.????.
Times are changing.
Te Orca are Awsome.
I didn't see Te Maori party championing all Maori problems in fact life for most Maori got extremely hard when the Maori party was at Te tepu.
Yes remember those reggae lyrics they speak the Truth.
Ka kite Ano.