Open mike 08/06/2023

80 comments on “Open mike 08/06/2023 ”

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1. Tiger Mountain 1

   8 June 2023 at 7:07 am

   Today we shall find out the spine count among Supercity Councillors–if several are even allowed to vote of course–the Natzo dirty politics department never sleeps…

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-government/300898850/second-auckland-councillor-declares-spouse-owns-shares-in-auckland-airport-hours-before-budget-vote

   I am as opposed to genuine conflicts of interest as anyone else into politics, but really share ownership since 1984 has been seen almost as a patriotic act in the neo liberal state.

   Given John Key’s considerable shareholdings while Prime Minister–and media channels still giving him the hot towel and back rub treatment–it is rather obvious that Mayor Brown is being supported big time by his backers on flogging off a valuable asset, likely to roaming investment funds or venture capitalists.

   If Auckland Councillors do not ensure “Brown goes down” on this Budget vote, they may as well go on gardening leave for the rest of their terms.
   • bwaghorn 1.1

     8 June 2023 at 8:34 am

     Can't help thinking that Woods is just collateral damage from 'flush him down browns 'search for dirt on the anti sale councillors.
     • Tiger Mountain 1.1.1

       8 June 2023 at 8:50 am

       Yes, it will be interesting when or if a decent journalist, like Gordon Campbell say, follows the trail and timeline.

       Whoever was doing the searching sure got a ‘bonus score’ when Michael Woods name popped up.
   • Tiger Mountain 1.2

     8 June 2023 at 9:50 am

     It should be added that during his time as Auckland DHB Chair, one of Brown’s first acts was to suspend standing orders in respect of declaration of conflicts of interest!–in a Metro magazine article which is no longer on line, but which I have posted previously.

     If one reads the brief article below, “Browny’s” bumpkin style was more than apparent way back. So many were asleep at the wheel during the election with regard to his suitability.

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-body-elections/130052175/auckland-mayoralty-doctors-dispute-browns-claims-of-dhb-success
   • Descendant Of Smith 1.3

     8 June 2023 at 4:54 pm

     Selling golf courses and selling stolen land back seem better options.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/ngati-whatua-orakei-offers-wayne-brown-an-alternative-to-massive-rates-rise-or-auckland-airport-share-sell-off

     Tamaki Makaurau iwi Ngāti Whātua Ōrākei has an easy out for Auckland mayor Wayne Brown’s financial crisis: sell back the port land that was stolen from Māori.

     Brown said he had no comment at this stage but this was something the council could look at long-term.

     Ngāti Whātua Ōrākei deputy chairman Ngarimu Blair said the iwi has made the offer to all former Auckland supercity mayors, including John Banks, to release the 55 hectares locked up at the Auckland waterfront.

     He says the iwi has long sought the return of its harbours, which were taken without the tribe’s consent.
2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

   8 June 2023 at 7:51 am

   Flood repairs: Homeowner, builder say insurance offers well below full costs

   Some Aucklanders have been offered tens of thousands of dollars less than what their own tradies have quoted.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/491545/flood-repairs-homeowner-builder-say-insurance-offers-well-below-full-costs

   I have much sympathy for these people. The Insurance companies, despite their lovely friendly ads…could give a rats arse about them.

   Best luck to those trying to fight to get it done.

   Anyway…a not so small thing. I kinda wonder if climate change and its consequences..will be any part of their thinking? Maybe..I refer to the people flooded. (of course Insurance will go up..and /or uninsurable will increase . Money of course )
   • pat 2.1

     8 June 2023 at 8:04 am

     Government go to advisors McKinsey Group developed the practice.

     https://inthesetimes.com/article/mckinsey-insurance-scandal-before-buttigieg-joined
   • newsense 2.2

     8 June 2023 at 9:54 am

     National and farmers say and you’re not getting a cent from our emissions, gfy!
   • Descendant Of Smith 2.3

     8 June 2023 at 10:19 am

     The problem with insuring now, and the removal of full replacement type insurance, is that you have to consider two quite distinct possibilities.

     1. My house burns down.

     This you can insure by working out the cost of replacement based on current costings. Bit of work but can be done.

     2. There is a major event and lots of houses are affected e.g. flooding or earthquake.

     Now you have to factor in that the cost will significantly increase post a major event and up your insurance accordingly.

     You are forced into making a decision to pay the insurance companies a great deal more to cover off 2 – or to pay less on the basis of 1 being more likely but leaving yourself under-insured if 2 happens.

     This despite the insurance companies having lifted your premiums if you are in a risk assessed area.

     Previous full-replacement policies covered either risk.

     This isn't particularly transparent. Maybe there needs to be better clarity with small event cover the norm and large event cover being a top up.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.3.1

       8 June 2023 at 10:33 am

       Hi, thanks for detailed/insight reply. Yes, I think this Insure/unInsure will become a major issue in our ever changing (Climate change ) future..

       "The risks will be borne by somebody at some point, the more vulnerable who can't afford insurance will suffer the most."

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/478364/climate-change-tops-agenda-of-new-zealand-insurance-companies
3. Anker 3

   8 June 2023 at 9:24 am

   https://www.speakupforwomen.nz/post/majority-of-new-zealanders-do-not-support-sex-self-id

   the results are in! SUFW commissioned a poll to see where NZ voters stood on gender self ID. Only 20% support this legislation. Only 30% of Labour voters support gender self ID.
   Even of the Green party members only 41% support it
   • Phillip ure 3.1

     8 June 2023 at 9:32 am

     How about posting the questions asked…?
     • Molly 3.1.1

       8 June 2023 at 9:36 am

       Further details on Anker's provided link.
   • Molly 3.2

     8 June 2023 at 9:34 am

     That's less than the submissions made in support of the legislation:

     https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FSpeakUp4WomenNZ%2Fposts%2F1210846262756868&show_text=true&width=500&quot

     "Of the 6,609 submissions, 73% are against the changes with just 25% supportive of them!
     The remaining 2% represent duplicated/ supplemental/ unclear submissions."

     Survey number was 1000, but seems to indicate a stable percentage when compared to that analysis.
   • arkie 3.3

     8 June 2023 at 9:41 am

     The latest global survey from Ipsos – the LGBT+ Pride 2023 survey – shows that 84% of New Zealanders believe transgender people should be protected from discrimination in employment, housing and access to businesses.

     …

     With the exception of health insurance subsidies, there was a global majority in favour of trans people accessing gender-affirming care, public facilities and having official documents offer more options than male and female for those who don’t identify as either.

     https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/02-06-2023/vast-majority-of-new-zealanders-believe-trans-people-should-be-protected-from-discrimination-poll
     • Anker 3.3.1

       8 June 2023 at 9:47 am

       "The latest global survey from Ipsos – the LGBT+ Pride 2023 survey – shows that 84% of New Zealanders believe transgender people should be protected from discrimination in employment, housing and access to businesses." From Arkies post and most if not all gender critical women would support that too.

       I think that shows that NZ is a very tolerant space and the vast majority of people only want fairness for trans people. This is good news.

       But that is different from trans women (biological males) trampling on the hard fought rights of women to their own spaces.
     • Shanreagh 3.3.2

       8 June 2023 at 9:50 am

       Of course Arkie, this is not the point. I don't think many would support discrimination in employment, housing etc against trans people.

       Asking for the rights of women to safe same sex spaces and in sport is not discrimination.

       The whole and singular point is whether trans people should usurp the rights of others esp women.

       But nice try as a diversion/red herring.
       • Delia 3.3.2.1

         8 June 2023 at 10:27 am

         The results are not surprising, I believe the majority of submitters from the public did not support Self ID. The politicians ignored that.
     • Anker 3.3.3

       8 June 2023 at 9:51 am

       Do Ipsos normally poll in NZ? I have just scrolled through the political polls i.e. who would you vote for, conducted of late and I can't see IPSOS there. But perhaps they poll on other things. Curias result are within the margin of error for the other big polling companies e.g Reid research and the TV one poll.

       Do you know how Ipsos conducted their research? How they recruited their samples?
     • Molly 3.3.4

       8 June 2023 at 10:06 am

       "The latest global survey from Ipsos – the LGBT+ Pride 2023 survey – shows that 84% of New Zealanders believe transgender people should be protected from discrimination in employment, housing and access to businesses."

       I'd be one of the 84%.

       I don't support:

       1. Males in female single-sex provisions,

       2. Prioritisation of a fluid and undefined gender identity over the binary and immutable category of sex when sex matters – in policy and law;

       3. The iatrogenic harm that is resulting from adoption of protocols from organisations such as WPATH, AAP and the the Endocrine Society which as mentioned in this comment are legally banding together to refuse providing the clinical evidence behind their recommendations: .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19-04-2023/#comment-1946321

       4. The determination to avoid providing quality exploratory therapy when assessing those that present at clinics for help. Baldly stated by a gender clinician Dame Sue Bagshaw – https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/475757/puberty-blocker-use-jumps-as-expert-backs-results – and further exacerbated by the passing of the conversion therapy bill, and the establishment of a centre aimed to prosecute those who may attempt to do so.

       5. Compelled language. The deliberate misuse of language which attempts to avoid clear discussion, and the danger of enshrining the use of such language in policy and legislation.

       6. Failed safeguarding. Not just for women, but for children and young people too. The elimination of appropriate boundaries, and understanding of child development that sees them introduced to inappropriate and perhaps harmful to development material and ideas, that has been embedded in our recent RSE education.

       7. The impact on lesbians, gays and bisexuals who have also lost their language, and have been force-teamed with those who have taken it, and appropriated the preceding good work that the LGB have done.

       8. The spectacle of the left political parties taking an authoritarian position on this issue, actively promoting a #NoDebate stance, and vilifying – without evidence – anyone who did not comply. There is an added danger here, which will manifesting with the return of the hate speech legislation.
       • Tiger Mountain 3.3.4.1

         8 June 2023 at 10:31 am

         Agree. And despite Stats NZ new approach…

         https://www.stats.govt.nz/methods/data-standard-for-gender-sex-and-variations-of-sex-characteristics/

         …slightly more than 50% of the population are generally considered ‘old school’ women with uteruses rather than “those new trendy women with cocks and balls” as comedian Ricky Gervais put it.

         From a class left position I support the human rights of all oppressed and exploited people bar open fascists.

         With the trans debate however, like any movement, there is the sharp end of the spear which is represented by certain activists. Some of them are just alienating previous and potential allies. Women fought hard for their own spaces and lives. Some of the staunchest allies in struggle you will ever encounter are politicised lesbian women. Trans activism too often appears to support the patriarchy and the ruling class divide and rule strategy.

         Until anti capitalism prevails, these types of identity stoushes will be with us, but no one should be shut down for trying to work it all out in a positive manner.
         • Shanreagh 3.3.4.1.1

           8 June 2023 at 1:21 pm

           I support those who are protesting at the woll being pulled over our eytes as far as discrimination and trans people is concerned.

           My view is that there is a sizeable dose of misogyny and a not so big but still apparent dose of age-ism, floating around in the 'traniverse'. So older females cop the abuse on the grounds of sex plus age…..as we can see with the references to 'Karen'. The Karen trope is known as being aimed at older women.

           But the most apparent anti voices are those who have taken the chance to indulge in a little bit of misogyny ie women hate, perhaps under the belief that they can do a snow job/smokescreen by referencing the rights argument as a cover. I'm sorry but that won't work.
       • tWiggle 3.3.4.2

         8 June 2023 at 3:50 pm

         There is excellent reason for the NZ anti-conversion therapy Bill 2022:

         'Meaning of conversion practice (1) In this Act, conversion practice means any practice, sustained effort, or treatment that— (a) is directed towards an individual because of the individual’s sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression; and (b) is done with the intention of changing or suppressing the individual’s sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression.'

         For those who are interested, Caelan Conrad posed for a year as a concerned parent with a trans child. Starting with innocuous sounding support groups, they worked their way further into 'inner circles' where the mask was off. The anti-trans affirmation groups Caelan entered included people like Posie Parker as regular members.

         Caelan's in-depth description of their investigation is important viewing to see the nasty (and illegal, depending on juristiction) 'conversion' practices pushed at these sites. Some parents even consider having their adult children declared mentally incompetent. For teenagers, the advice includes social isolation from the child's friends, and also neighbours or teachers who might report parents to child protection services. Not surprisingly, a section of the posters are parents who not longer have contact with their adult trans children.

         Caelan has a good 6 hours of content, and has archived many conversations from these sites. The second 'conversion' video is most relevant to this discussion, and I admit, it's a committment to watch through it, even at 1.5 speed. However, I find Caelan's content is thorough and humane. Unlike the dehumanising hate speech sprinkled through posts on these 'inner circle' sites that actively sell anti-trans parenting practices .

         If trans people were not protected under NZ law, their parents could legally apply the harmful conversion practices advocated at these sites. They could also be pushed into religious 'conversion' practices, such as have been applied to homosexual children and young adults that are harmful.
         • Shanreagh 3.3.4.2.1

           8 June 2023 at 4:51 pm

           Once again no doubt there are practices aimed at both parents and children from both pro and anti trans. The key point for me, and it comes within the concept of parenting, and that is the idea of watchful waiting and the saying 'this too will pass'. Many of us will recall having ideas that were possibly agin those of our parents or where parents sought to exercise wise counsel. many of us are grateful that we were under the care and control of our parents when these ideas arose. Being ok to explore ideas and issues where the results can be undone such as haircuts, haircolours, clothes pale into insignificance when parent allow, for whatever reason, their children to partake/experience in actions that cannot be undone.

           Parenting also comes with the idea of safeguarding and that is not inflicting or allowing concepts or actions to be inflicted on people who are not at an age to make up their own minds because of youth or lack of life experiences.

           We also know about the social contagion evident at the moment.

           Being part of child mutilation, that may result in a child being so damaged that they are not able to experience orgasm as an adult must be one of the most cruel things a parent can allow to be inflicted on a child.

           So I am not against slowing down the process of transition to watchful waiting, and that includes counselling etc for gender disphoria, by whatever legal means our country has at its disposal.

           Please be aware that there is a great difference from being pro women and children to being anti trans. Many pro trans supporters seem to conflate the two. It diminishes the strength of any argument if the argument can only work by slanging off at another group.

           I feel that once a child has reached the age of majority then they can do what they like subject only to the advice from their parents. Children never stop being our children no matter what the age. I was for ever grateful for the advice of parents who always had my best at the forefront even if we may have differed on what happened, as an adult.

           For me the teen years come with many pressures for child & parent and if we can get through with children who are able to see the issues from both sides then that is good. That is why it grieves me that some families lose touch over what has happened in those teen years, not just trans issues.

           So I guess this undercover this or that leaves me cold really….are we in any shape or form better off? No.

           Would any funds have been better spent on keeping doors open for both parent/child through access to good counselling etc, of course.
         • Molly 3.3.4.2.2

           8 June 2023 at 5:07 pm

           I will bookmark it – but I am more of a reader than a watcher.

           This one may be of interest to you. As I haven't watched your links, it may be irrelevant but I'll post it here, because it is a logical link for the thread, and it means either of us can find it easily:

           https://youtu.be/4gK48usGi7o
           • tWiggle 3.3.4.2.2.1

             9 June 2023 at 10:25 am

             Thanks Molly for posting, but I don't want to listen to Helen Joyce, whose position is that trans people should be repressed and their numbers reduced because they are damaged and are too much trouble to accomodate 'in a sane world'.

             Perhaps it may surprise you, but those on the trans inclusionary side of the debate do critically rebut GC arguments. That means presenting those arguments in the first place. So I am already aware of Joyce's ideas and the position of many other GC anti-trans advocates.

             And it may surprise you also, but it has taken me a while to find in-depth pro-trans commentators and video essayists who discuss these ideas. When I first started commenting here on this topic months ago, it was my own interpretation of the material being posted at TS.

             For example, I did my own research on the trans women are dangerous in toilets question in terms of data; I followed the 'autogynephilia' term to its original shonky paper, to the disgusting twitter site of the still-living coiner of that term, and to the careful studies that debunked his 'theory' that all female-attracted trans women have a perversion; and I hated Posie Parker's vlogged opinions and outright lies from first listen.

             Guess what, it took time, but I eventually discovered that my self-formed opinions on the content I read at TS are also held by many others, feminists included. So I have not been brainwashed to my position. I have merely found people who have said it better, mostly.

             I find sometimes the way GC beliefs are expressed here to be dehumanising, and to repeat accusations without providing scientific proof. I personally, through my lived experience, don't ascribe to gender essentalism ideas of womanhood and of the innate destructive power of the penis. So, much of the basis of the GC argument I find irrelevant. I see it for the philosophical ideology it is, and not an immutable fact embedded in our XY genes.
             • Molly …

               10 June 2023 at 10:10 am

               "Thanks Molly for posting, but I don't want to listen to Helen Joyce, whose position is that trans people should be repressed and their numbers reduced because they are damaged and are too much trouble to accomodate 'in a sane world'."

               No problem, if you have no wish to watch. Others might. I've posted an article by Jan Rivers below as well – .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-08-06-2023/#comment-1953376 – benefit of quick read.

               I haven't got much time at the moment, but a couple of responses to your comment.

               "Helen Joyce, whose position is that trans people should be repressed and their numbers reduced because they are damaged and are too much trouble to accomodate 'in a sane world'."

               This paraphase is out of context of the discussion which was about the iatrogenic harm that is occurring due to significant medical interventions after self-diagnosis. The numbers reduced in in regards to the numbers experiencing iatrogenic harm, which I would think everyone would be on board with.

               I post the original source here, for people to make up their own mind, even though I am aware some will retain your perspective:

               https://www.youtube.com/live/8_u1MQFjxvI?feature=share&t=283

               "Perhaps it may surprise you, but those on the trans inclusionary side of the debate do critically rebut GC arguments. That means presenting those arguments in the first place. "

               It doesn't surprise me that you think you understand GC arguments. You repeatedly state this.

               However, Gender Critical is as much use as the terms left-wing, feminist etc at the moment. There are so many different viewpoints and perspectives within that idea, that it is not useful to apply a certain viewpoint to all that claim it, or those you might label with it.'

               I do feel that we have the possibilities that commenters here are perhaps not clear in articulating their position, that you understand it completely and provide robust responses to their actual positions, or that you miss the salient points and provide responses to assumed positions. Or of course a combination of the above.

               I appreciate TS for the opportunity to converse person to person, without a need for a declaration of sides. Thanks for continuing your engagement.

               With that in mind, can you please provide an example of this:

               "I find sometimes the way GC beliefs are expressed here to be dehumanising" -and why you think that example is dehumanising, because while I aim for clarity – dehumanisation is a strong criticism – and should be considered to see whether it is justified.
         • Anker 3.3.4.2.3

           8 June 2023 at 5:09 pm

           In good faith, I attempted to watch the video clips you have posted twiggle, but after 45 minutes I gave up. This man makes many claims including gender critical thinking is a cult, but provides no definition of what a cult is, nor does he thing give any examples of how gender critical groups meet the criteria for being a cult.

           The flashing of screen shots from gender critical sites, many at once does not give the opportunity to read what the screen shots are saying at all. After 35 plus minutes of this, I had had enough and couldn't be bothered waiting for this guy to present things in a way that back up any of his claims. (btw other than GC being a cult I wasn't sure what he is claiming.

           One thing he said he came across in a GC parents group was words to the effect "of so you thnk your child is trans, well thats great, but have you thought of xxx" why that would be a problem is beyond me. There was a mention of autogynaphilia, which of course is a helpful theoretical psychological construct that tries to make sense of cross dressing.

           My last criticism is that the guy himself is rather over the top and doesn't present in a serious way. Of course if in watching it for 45 minutes, I had of gleened there was useful or important information he had, I would have over looked his style. But there wasn't.

           GC is very simply the idea that biological sex matters and it is not possible to change your sex. Therefore women's sex based rights need to be protected from men who identify as women. Other commenters on her might put it better, but I think that is a reasonable reflection of GC thinking. That the vast majority of people believe this and it has always been the case isn't a cult I am sorry.
           • Nic the NZer 3.3.4.2.3.1

             8 June 2023 at 5:28 pm

             In my research into what a cult is I was surprised to find it's a very broad definition. Institutions such as a School, or the Military or the Family share many of the characteristics of cults as far as people diagnosing them go. Because of this cults are better separated along the category of harmful cults.

             This may be the rhetorical device being exploited by this reference.
           • Molly 3.3.4.2.3.2

             9 June 2023 at 9:34 am

             I gave it ten minutes, then another five scanning the timestamps.

             Not my cup of tea for similar reasons as yours.

             For anyone who i more of a reader, I had this 2022 article by Jan Rivers bookmarked:

             https://genspect.org/nzs-conversion-practices-prohibition-law-a-wolf-in-wolfs-clothing/

             "Following a record 106,000 submissions, oral hearings conducted at breakneck speed, with sometimes as few as two MPs present, the New Zealand “conversion therapy: bill was presented for its second reading on 8 February as the first item of business for 2022 and was passed into law a week later. (NZ Government, 2022 Ministry of Justice 2022.) This undue haste speaks to the influence that the LGBTQIA++ lobby has both in and outside of Parliament, as was the case with the Births, Deaths, Marriages and Relationships Registration (BDMRR) legislation. Together with the BDMRR Act, this new law is part of a suite of legislation embedding gender identity in New Zealand law that cement the idea that there are ‘transgender children’ in New Zealand who need medicine and new legal identities.

             The main concern of opponents is not opposition to conversion therapy, but the way in which the new law conflates the concepts of gender identity and sexual orientation. In addition, there is international evidence of a strong thrust to equate exploratory counselling with conversion therapy (D’Angelo, 2020) that is reflected in the law. Unlike being gay or heterosexual, claiming a transgender identity is not a stable phenomenon, especially in children and young people. International research shows that most gender transitioners are actually same-sex attracted and/or have faced significant adverse childhood events and suffer from high levels of co-morbid mental health conditions including Autism Spectrum Disorder(ASD)…"
           • tWiggle 3.3.4.2.3.3

             9 June 2023 at 10:45 am

             The entire set of Caelan's video essay lay out why they think aspects of the GC movement are a cult. I admit, and said, it's a hard, but worthy watch. Again, I am posting on this topic to provide balance. I certainly don't expect those of you here with such fervent beliefs will change your ideas because of my position. I do appreciate that you take the time to engage with the material I post.

             Personally I admire the depth of Caelan's investigative work, and kinda like the personality they inject into their vlog. Chacune à son goût.
             • tWiggle …

               9 June 2023 at 12:06 pm

               By the way Caelan is a trans ally, not trans, as they are genderqueer.
               • Molly …

                 10 June 2023 at 2:03 pm

                 "By the way Caelan is a trans ally, not trans, as they are genderqueer."

                 What relevance is this to the quality of their contribution?
         • Anker 3.3.4.2.4

           8 June 2023 at 5:11 pm

           tWiggle you do realise that since the Conversion therapy bill has been past there have been no complaints made don't you? This is despite the govt giving two million dollars to the HRC to hear complaints.
           • tWiggle 3.3.4.2.4.1

             9 June 2023 at 10:54 am

             Perhaps that is because conversion therapy is mostly pushed on people by their family or church community, and those on the receiving end may want to retain some ongoing relationship, rather than cut out that part of their lives?
             • Visubversa …

               9 June 2023 at 12:55 pm

               Or perhaps that it was never actually about "Gay" conversion as most of the things that were objected to about those practices are not lawful these days anyway.

               Perhaps it was actually about making sure that nothing other than the Affirmation Only model is practiced when it comes to children and young people with sex based bodily dysmorphia.
             • Anker …

               9 June 2023 at 2:27 pm

               I think it is more likely that as the govt RSE said there isn't much evidence that people are practicing conversion therapy on gays and lesbians and certainly no evidence of the sinister conversion therapy of the 1940s, 50, 60s and 70s.

               I think the real conversion therapy that this bill enables is through gender affirming care. Most dysphoric teens turn out to be gay. But the rapidity with which their "gender identity" is affirm and the fast tracking them on to puberty blockers, then cross sex hormones is the thing that needs to be addressed. Do you realise the drugs that were prescribed to Alan Turing after he was found engaging in homosexual acts is one of the same drugs given to kids to supress their puberty? As you likely know, Alan was given the choice of having chemically castrating drugs or going to jail.

               These drugs are not licences for use as puberty blockers to dysphoric teens
4. Phillip ure 4

   8 June 2023 at 9:31 am

   Share debate on rnz…for the first time ever I agree with what maurice williamson sez..

   And c'mon..!..if a tory minister had done what wood dun…we'd be peeling you all off the ceiling…

   The wood thing is totally self-induced..
   • newsense 4.1

     8 June 2023 at 12:17 pm

     Doubtful.

     The PM would’ve said nothing to see, as would have Barry Sooner, DPF etc etc who are all part of the lynch mob. It wouldn’t have got legs the way this has.

     The outrage is not the 1300 dollars that Wood might have made, but as always the incredible double standard with investment housing.

     We’ve seen a leader of the opposition make policy on the fly which stands to make him significantly more wealthy. I’m at least the tens of thousands and possibly the millions.

     An apology and a correction is all that would have happened to this if it were a Nat.

     The way Hipkins has handled this has made it worse than it is and hints at him attempting to wound a future rival.

     The promotion of a temporary transport minister with little connection to Auckland suggests cold feet on proper transport and density which will allow the middle class and below a chance in Auckland and a concern that there are no bottom lines.
     • Phillip ure 4.1.1

       8 June 2023 at 1:48 pm

       The issue is not the shares…it is him ignoring 12 requests to divest…

       It's as simple as that..

       And to claim that hipkins is trying to kneecap a rival..when in fact hipkins is having a week from hell…is really groin-stretching..

       And it is all woods own work…no right wing conspiracies needed here…

       And now we are told he lied to.the media re conflict of interest…

       Wood has to be dead man walking… surely..?
   • Ad 4.2

     8 June 2023 at 1:11 pm

     Instead of just a privileged few politicians and other rich people owning shares, just imagine if every citizen in Auckland had a share in Auckland Airport.

     That's precisely what it was like in the 1990s.

     It was an actual citizen shareholding.

     The New Zealand government and then the Auckland Regional Council developed that airport from the 1960s through to the 1980s, paid by our rates and taxes.

     Central government should stand and buy the 18% off them as of today.
     • Phillip ure 4.2.1

       8 June 2023 at 1:54 pm

       That makes sense…
     • SPC 4.2.2

       8 June 2023 at 10:41 pm

       Why would Auckland ratepayers want the government to own their airport shares?

       The assessment is the dividend return compared to cost of debt.

       The Council should ask that council borrowing constraints are based on net debt and retain ownership of assets that deliver a return and sell those that do not – golf course land.

       And talk to iwi with money and advocate their cause to government so that they have more money still.
5. newsense 5

   8 June 2023 at 9:56 am

   Surprise!

   Farmers refuse to even do a token amount in the battle against the consequences of climate change.

   The National party honours this pledge with its flip flop today.
   • roy cartland 5.1

     8 June 2023 at 10:06 am

     link
     • newsense 5.1.1

       8 June 2023 at 12:08 pm

       Apologies Rory.

       I thought it was top 3 on the online Herald, but that article and headline is proving difficult to track down now! Maybe it’s the one Psycling has kindly put below from RNZ declaring the plan ‘dead’.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.2

     8 June 2023 at 10:08 am

     Climate Change Minister James Shaw told RNZ discussions have not stopped and National was "speculating into the void" for political gain.

     "National are fighting with ACT over votes in the regions and in farming and rural communities and the ACT Party of course don't, as far as we know, even think climate change is real."

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/491558/agricultural-emissions-plan-in-jeopardy-as-national-walks-back-support

     And yea re the infight. Ex Fed Farm joins act…I have linked before

     as Mr… Hoggard nails his dairyshit brown colours to acts mast…

     Ex-Federated Farmers boss Hoggard stands as ACT candidate

     In a grab for rural votes, ACT is standing former Federated Farmer president Andrew Hoggard is the normally blue set of Rangitikei.

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018889416/ex-federated-farmers-boss-hoggard-stands-as-act-candidate

     Youd think all this..Climate Change an all ! , would be way more important than Wood's minor share issue.

     Anyway….Nacts true blue Climate change denial is certain.
6. Joe90 6

   8 June 2023 at 10:30 am

   Russia mined the dam, and blew it up. The world knows.

   […]

   

   https://texty.org.ua/fragments/109844/kakhovka-hpp-was-designed-withstand-nuclear-attack-there-no-question-its-self-destruction/
   • tsmithfield 6.1

     8 June 2023 at 1:40 pm

     Yes, they certainly did. The only possibility. The Russians had blown the bridge from the Ukrainian side of the dam. So the only way explosives could have been fitted was from the Russian side. And, it was well known they had this set up since October last year.

     From reports I have seen, it appears the Russians were intending a smaller result, enough to flood Ukrainian troops on centre islands on the river. But they blew up a lot more than intended, and ended up flooding a lot of their own troops as well.
   • weston 6.2

     8 June 2023 at 7:14 pm

     Joe 90 thinks the russians blew the dam and the super sized font PROVES IT !!!!!
     • joe90 6.2.1

       8 June 2023 at 7:31 pm

       If you had a fucking clue you'd be able to identify screen grabs.
       • weston 6.2.1.1

         8 June 2023 at 8:49 pm

         If you had a fucking clue you'd be able to identify propaganda !!
7. PsyclingLeft.Always 7

   8 June 2023 at 10:47 am

   Climate Change…

   Raging Canada wildfires threaten critical infrastructure, force evacuations

   About 3.8 million hectares have already burned, some 15 times the 10-year average, said Federal Minister of Emergency Preparedness Bill Blair.

   "Across the country as of today, there are 414 wildfires burning, 239 of which are determined to be out of control," he told a briefing. The giant eastern province of Quebec is among the worst affected.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/491554/raging-canada-wildfires-threaten-critical-infrastructure-force-evacuations

   In NZ Nact fiddle/twerk/deny….meanwhile…
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.1

     8 June 2023 at 12:07 pm

     'Exacerbated by climate change' – NZ experiences warmest May on record

     Temperatures were exacerbated by climate change, it added. Of the five warmest Mays on record, all have occurred since 2011.

     "The widespread nature of May's exceptional warmth, both on land and in the sea, have been exacerbated by climate change," NIWA said.

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/491540/exacerbated-by-climate-change-nz-experiences-warmest-may-on-record

     Nact….its happening. Climate Change. Deny all you like..you canutes !
8. Ad 8

   8 June 2023 at 1:06 pm

   Hang in there Chippie, you're the only hope of a Labour-led government in 2023.

   You old alien blue-tongued lizard you.
   • SPC 8.1

     8 June 2023 at 10:32 pm

     Do you want to be the board "QAd".

     It's of a certain Christian dominionism on earth school to pose liberal opposition as reptilian – someone to have the mother's son foot on their head.
9. joe90 9

   8 June 2023 at 2:16 pm

   I guess this is the good news.

   @iaeaorg

   The IAEA is aware of reports of damage at #Ukraine’s Kakhovka dam; IAEA experts at #Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant are closely monitoring the situation; no immediate nuclear safety risk at plant.#ZNPP

   https://twitter.com/iaeaorg/status/1665956258317496323

   https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/iaea-director-general-statement-to-the-iaea-board-of-governors
10. Descendant Of Smith 10

    8 June 2023 at 2:50 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132262022/national-leader-christopher-luxon-says-we-should-have-more-babies

    "I encourage all of you to go out there and have more babies if you wish, that would be helpful.”

    Someone should ask him if this is a reversal to the last National government's policy where sole parents having more babies was punished. Maybe "all of you" might be inclusive of sole parents.
    • arkie 10.1

      8 June 2023 at 3:02 pm

      Damage control again:

      National's deputy leader says her leader was joking when he encouraged people to "have more babies".

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/491585/christopher-luxon-urges-kiwis-to-have-more-babies-saying-it-would-be-helpful
      • Descendant Of Smith 10.1.1

        8 June 2023 at 3:11 pm

        Yeah it's a joke if you aren't aware of this. I'm pretty sure he is – particularly as he has spent time in the US.

        https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-the-fight-to-ban-abortion-is-rooted-in-the-great-replacement-theory/
    • Patricia Bremner 10.2

      8 June 2023 at 3:06 pm

      So this is why Luxon and Willis think women should pay for prescribed contraceptives ????
    • Visubversa 10.3

      8 June 2023 at 3:11 pm

      I think that what he really wanted to say was "more white babies".
      • Phillip ure 10.3.1

        8 June 2023 at 5:38 pm

        Yep…!…all part of the white evangelical push to make more babies to counter the high birthrates of the brown people..

        A telling look behind the luxon mask..

        And Willis going 'its a joke..'..is in itself a joke…

        As noted above..luxon is spouting the beliefs of adherents to the great replacement theory…

        Which is racism wrapped in a religious robe…

        Ew…!…just ew..!
    • psych nurse 10.4

      8 June 2023 at 4:04 pm

      Look on the bright side, all the old grey boomers will probably die trying, that should wipe a few percent off the vote.
      • Incognito 10.4.1

        8 June 2023 at 4:18 pm

        Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are still alive. Must be the Mediterranean Diet.
        • Phillip ure 10.4.1.1

          8 June 2023 at 6:30 pm

          I'm still alive..

          Must be the vegan diet…
          • psych nurse 10.4.1.1.1

            8 June 2023 at 7:37 pm

            Its no use spilling seed on barren land
            • joe90 10.4.1.1.1.1

              8 June 2023 at 7:51 pm

              obligatory

              
      • Patricia Bremner 10.4.2

        8 June 2023 at 8:37 pm

        "Oh Yeah".
    • Incognito 10.5

      8 June 2023 at 4:26 pm

      Did he lift his left or right eyebrow?
    • Anne 10.6

      8 June 2023 at 5:33 pm

      The old patriarchal trick… telling women what to do with their bodies.

      Why doesn't someone ask him to put his money where his mouth is and father more babies.

      He’s an idiot!
      • Phillip ure 10.6.1

        8 June 2023 at 5:40 pm

        The wig industry would thank him.

        It is hereditary..isn't it..?

        Boom..!..boom..!
11. mary_a 11

    8 June 2023 at 4:43 pm

    Luxon and Willis are like a couple of very bad stand up comedians with their baby/worker statements.

    Willis contradicting Luxon here. If it's a joke now as Willis says, why did Luxon use good oxygen saying it in the first place then, when he's supposed to be talking serious policy?

    Keep it up guys (oops, no pun intended). This is great for Labour
    • Incognito 11.1

      8 June 2023 at 5:19 pm

      Did he lift his left or right eyebrow?
    • Phillip ure 11.2

      8 June 2023 at 5:43 pm

      What does woods say to luxons call for more woodies…?
      • psych nurse 11.2.1

        8 June 2023 at 6:09 pm

        Viagra
        • Phillip ure 11.2.1.1

          8 June 2023 at 6:26 pm

          Viagra and national super… fighting it out for the title of best thing to happen for old people..
          • psych nurse 11.2.1.1.1

            8 June 2023 at 7:43 pm

            And formaldehyde.
            • Phillip ure 11.2.1.1.1.1

              8 June 2023 at 8:53 pm

              I've held off on the formaldehyde….so far…
12. newsense 12

    9 June 2023 at 2:25 am

    Maybe someone brighter than me can explain why they hasn’t been an uprising against this oligarchy?
    from Bernard Hickey:

    https://substack.com/@bernardchickey/note/c-16688462

    The NIMBYs say no densification AND no sprawl, but they quite like the population growth and the cheaper services that go with that. They just don’t want them living anywhere near them, or on land that grows their food.

    So they end up in the backs of cars and in boarding houses and lodges. Five of them burned to death a couple of weeks ago in one of those lodges, which was approved by regulators as fire safe, even though it had no sprinklers and the front door was barred.

    And Wellington City Council has just discovered there are 25 more of these high density boarding houses in Wellington, four of which aren’t even approved as fire safe or fit for human habitation.

    What the Actual Fuck Aotearoa.

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