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Open mike 08/10/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 8th, 2020 - 132 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

132 comments on “Open mike 08/10/2020 ”

  1. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1
    8 October 2020 at 6:04 am

    Forgive me, lefties, for I have sinned. Well almost but not quite, thank goodness.

    I almost felt, for a moment, sorry for Judith.

    I’ve been a political observer since before I was able to vote, but I’ve never witnessed a train wreck like this Natz campaign under Judith and Gerry.

    I was out of the country in 2002 when English managed an epic low: was his campaign so full of hilarious moments as this one?

    Merv from Manurewa!

    Goldsmith’s holes!

    Leaked emails!

    ‘Private’ moment of prayer!

    Shouty leader insisting we don’t diss Samoa!

    Sham stroll!

    What have I missed – and more importantly, what’s next?

    Reply
    • Dennis Frank 1.1
      8 October 2020 at 6:31 am

      Next, Tony, is the CB poll on One News tonight! If there's no rise for National, time to do something more desperate. Where's Simon Lusk??

      Ben Thomas talks about staging:

      There’s a persistent myth that the “ordinary people” travellers to North Korea meet during tightly controlled trips into Pyongyang’s underground commuter train or shopping areas are actors paid to profess to foreigners their loyalty to, and love for, whichever great leader is in power at the time. This claim appears to be baseless.

      Instead, they are (like most North Koreans) simply polite, well indoctrinated by a national propaganda apparatus, and shy if not suspicious of outsiders.

      In the same way, is it correct to say that the National Party supporters lined up at apparently uniform distances along Ponsonby Road, like the parade markings of many Pyongyang public squares, to greet Judith Collins were “fake”? They were real supporters, after all, dedicated enough to participate in the charade.

      If that devotion to performance did make them thespians, then yesterday they would probably have most aptly described as crisis actors, as the walkabout spun out of control. The idea the National is coming apart at the seams is overhyped.

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/08-10-2020/keen-to-see-judith-collins-jettisoned-careful-what-you-wish-for/

      Ben's thesis is that we ought to appreciate the Judith: she's a liberal. Roll her, we end up with a fundie christian. I say, what better way to consign the National Party to the dustbin of history? Bring it on!

      Reply
      • Wensleydale 1.1.1
        8 October 2020 at 11:16 am

        Ben Thomas — the man to call when you need a band-aid slapped on a gaping chest wound. "It's really not as bad as it looks. Yes, I know we can see her internal organs, but on a positive note, they all look fairly healthy."

        Reply
    • weka 1.2
      8 October 2020 at 10:31 am

      heh, I've been on the verge of feeling sorry for her too. It's good to have some capacity for compassion for people who are doing despicable things, it's part of humanity and not being like them 😉

      Reply
  2. Dennis Frank 2
    8 October 2020 at 6:38 am

    Did you know there's a basis upon which the rightist rabble has coalesced?

    ACT, the New Conservatives and the Advance New Zealand Party are all strong opponents of 1080 and that opposition features prominently in their rallies. NZ First has been much more circumspect up to now.

    And that's why Winston

    is now planning a campaign trip to Waiheke Island on Thursday to show off a predator control project there which does not use 1080. “I just want to be clear that New Zealand First has never been a believer in 1080,” he said.

    “We think there should be alternatives and trapping and hunting and all sorts of other range of initiatives should be taking place. “We believe 1080 is dangerous, but it’s very difficult to get control of this issue, even though we negotiated in the coalition agreement to put millions aside for it when it’s in control of some other minister.”

    That ”other Minister” is Eugenie Sage, the Minister of Conservation and a Green. But Peters is running out of time to turn his party’s fortunes around. Figures released last night by the Electoral Commission show that so far 271,369 people have already voted; that’s a 76% increase on the number who voted over the first three days of advance voting last election in 2017.

    This doesn’t help Peters, and he obviously needs time, so he made a plea. yesterday to people not to vote early. “Wait and find out everything that is in the mix of policies, because there are clangers after clanger after clanger out there being dropped every day now,” he said. “Only a fool tests the water with both feet. “Know all the facts first.”

    https://www.politik.co.nz/2020/10/07/while-national-reels-nz-first-plays-for-time/ | Politik

    This idea of Winston's that facts emerge during an election campaign, and they can be known, and furthermore everyone ought to refrain from advance voting until they have all emerged, is so wacky that even conspiracy theorists will be stunned!!

    Reply
  3. bwaghorn 3
    8 October 2020 at 7:37 am

    Polls need to be outlawed!

    I've talked to 3 people in the last week who like me had top come in 1st or 2nd on the vote compass, none of us intend to vote for them due to the poor polling.

    By the way all of us had labour and the greens as the other 2 in the top 3. So this line that top is right wing is bs.

    Reply
    • Nic the NZer 3.1
      8 October 2020 at 8:35 am

      Those polls should not be taken very seriously. They are massively influenced by how the things which seem most relevant to the election (the questions) distribute peoples views which may be not important at all to them. Then there is the problem you identified with TOP where their policy wonk positions are interpreted as economically left wing by the pollster, which is a debatable interpretation at best.

      Reply
      • bwaghorn 3.1.1
        8 October 2020 at 8:43 am

        A $250 ubi, a wealth tax on equity and raising taxes on superannuatants who work so that they dont have to raise the retirement age . Not very right wing.

        I struggle with taxing unrealized profit in housing but what do I know.

        Reply
        • Nic the NZer 3.1.1.1
          8 October 2020 at 9:15 am

          I see the UBI as being a cut in the existing welfare for the most vulnerable (and its not been suggested as complimentary by TOP).

          I see the capital tax as an ineffective attempt to leave housing policy to the market, and its not addressing the underlying problem, but from TOPs point of view they largely ignore other policies such as those Labour is attempting.

          And the idea of all these retirement policies is to privatise retirement income. I really don't know why Cullen has been given any left wing cred for his parts because at best its just an offshore investment fund and an attempt to privatise social security.

          Basically taxes up=left, taxes down=right is a massive charicature of policy positions, and makes for bad economic policy thinking.

          Reply
        • mikesh 3.1.1.2
          8 October 2020 at 11:00 am

          but what do I know.

          Not much, it seems.

          The equity tax is not actually a tax on equity, but a tax on equity's yield However it is applied only when that yield is less than 3%: more than 3% and tax would simply be paid in the normal way in any case.

          Probably the largest group, that this tax would affect, would be owners of family homes, whose equity in their property attracts no tax at present. Arguably, applying the tax in this case is justified by the fact that the rent that they save, by living in their own home, represents a sort of quasi income which should be taxed.

          Reply
      • Morrissey 3.1.2
        8 October 2020 at 9:03 am

        Those polls should not be taken very seriously.

        But they are taken seriously—by the news media. If they didn't have polls to talk about, or cute animal stories—this morning featured a pesky raccoon annoying a CNN reporter—they would have to report on trivia, like the show trials of political dissenters.

        [link deleted]

        [Link deleted. You’ve already linked to it @ 10, which is the appropriate thing to do, but in this particular thread it could easily act as a detraction and diversion – Incognito]

        Reply
    • Byd0nz 3.2
      8 October 2020 at 10:41 am

      I found that too. Seems like they are trying to stear away the Labour/Green vote yea it's bs, but no L/G voter will be sucked in, like you they will see through that.

      Reply
    • weka 3.3
      8 October 2020 at 10:43 am

      "So this line that top is right wing is bs."

      They're not right wing, they're radical centrists. By positioning (they will support a National govt, so you might want to consider that in your voting choices), and by some of their policies (anti-welfare is the on I am most familiar with, but there are others).

      I agree about polling though. We'd be much better off without polling in the month before the election. We'd probably have to ban publication of leaked internally polling too.

      Reply
      • mikesh 3.3.1
        8 October 2020 at 11:16 am

        TOP are neither left wing nor right wing; but neither are they really centrists. I think they are sufficiently unique as to defy categorization.

        By the way they are not opposed to welfare. However they would like to see a UBI replace welfare, though in practice top-ups would probably be necessary.

        Reply
        • Nic the NZer 3.3.1.1
          8 October 2020 at 11:36 am

          They are welcome to present a more nuanced welfare reform policy at any time, one which acknowledges positive discrimination has benefits. But when they do so they will probably have to explain that the so called 'efficiency' gains of universalism are a fiction.

          Until then I will go with how this has worked in other countries where UBI policies have tried to undermine better functioning welfare regimes.

          Reply
        • greywarshark 3.3.1.2
          8 October 2020 at 11:44 am

          Chary with the truth mikesh but sounding nicely authoritative.

          By the way they are not opposed to welfare. However they would like to see a UBI replace welfare, though in practice top-ups would probably be necessary.

          After listening to authoritative commenters for long enough one can start hallucinating about double rainbows – what does it mean..

          Reply
          • Dennis Frank 3.3.1.2.1
            8 October 2020 at 12:01 pm

            what does it mean

            I recall being taught the answer in a physics class long ago. Vaguely recollect it as refraction plus reflection but don't quote me. Light bouncing off the back wall of the droplet after passing thro, then re-entry into atmosphere at a different angle to the primary refracted beam…

            Reply
            • greywarshark 3.3.1.2.1.1
              8 October 2020 at 12:09 pm

              Refraction plus reflection – what I get when I read your thoughtful memos, and further refract though my vision is deteriorating. Wow a double rainbow – I sure look for one just now.

              Reply
        • weka 3.3.1.3
          8 October 2020 at 12:28 pm

          Simmons has an ideological commitment to getting rid of welfare. TOP don't have any real policy around top ups or a range of other issues related to welfare, including an adequate policy for disabled people and others who cannot work. When they change all that, I'll stop calling them anti-welfare, but at the moment their policy is dangerous for vulnerable people and those who may end up needing state assistance in the future.

          "though in practice top-ups would probably be necessary."

          See that's the problem right there, there's no probably about it and that degree of vagueness is just no ok in political work. TOP's UBI policy is defacto discriminatory against people who cannot work. Imagine TOP negotiating with National and ACT, what sort of UBI do you think we would end up with? Do you think that TOP would take a UBI off the table if NACT refused to treat disabled people well, or do you think that TOP would compromise and let welfare be dismantled before anything else was put in place?

          Reply
        • weka 3.3.1.4
          8 October 2020 at 12:30 pm

          "TOP are neither left wing nor right wing; but neither are they really centrists. I think they are sufficiently unique as to defy categorization."

          This is probably true, but I think my description stands. They've positioned themselves to be able to work between the left and right dominant parties ie they're in the centre. And their policies can often be understood in left or right terms as well.

          They're certainly not left wing. Some of what they do is progressive, and there are some solid ideas there. Some of what they do is regressive. Some of it is conservative.

          Reply
  4. PsyclingLeft.Always 4
    8 October 2020 at 7:40 am

    golden dawn…nazis convicted. Awesome !

    'Tens of thousands rallied outside the court, holding banners reading "Fascism, Never Again" and "Freedom for the People, Death to Fascism".

    "We must send a message to the younger generations, a message against fascism," said 69-year-old Sophia. "It's our duty to democracy to be here today, to show we are standing up against such criminal actions." '

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/427834/greece-s-far-right-golden-dawn-declared-a-criminal-group

    Reply
  5. ScottGN 5
    8 October 2020 at 7:42 am

    Big shout out to Auckland Central branch of the National Party for giving us all the unexpected delight of hearing the term “Potemkin Village” introduced into the election campaign.

    Reply
    • lprent 5.1
      8 October 2020 at 9:27 am

      Yeah, and as a semi-resident of Ponsonby (the road starts one short block away and I grew up there for the first few years of my life), let me tell you that I suspect that description alone will cause blow back on to whatshername Mellon(?) the National candidate.

      They may be bovine and like that kind of thing in Parnell or Remmers – but it goes down like a sick balloon around here.

      Reply
  6. ScottGN 6
    8 October 2020 at 7:44 am

    The PM is heading to East Cape today to give Kiri Allan’s already good chances of taking this seat a further push.

    Reply
  7. ScottGN 7
    8 October 2020 at 7:48 am

    Amazingly Republican veteran Lindsey Graham is getting outspent and completely outplayed in the South Carolina Senate race. The Cook Political report has moved it into the toss-up column.

    https://cookpolitical.com/analysis/senate/south-carolina-senate/south-carolina-senate-moves-toss

    Reply
  8. ScottGN 8
    8 October 2020 at 7:52 am

    New post debate, post Trump Covid diagnosis Quinnipiac Poll

    FLORIDA: Biden 51%, Trump 40%

    PENNSYLVANIA: Biden 54%, Trump 41%

    IOWA: Biden 50%, Trump 45%

    Reply
  9. swordfish 9
    8 October 2020 at 8:15 am

    Likely Milestone coming up:

    –Labour– hitting the 1 mill+ mark for the first time ever.

    They came so close yet so far in 2005 (935k) & 2017 (956k).

    –Nats–, meanwhile, are likely to fall below 1 mill for the first time since they hit that particular milestone way back in 2008.

    Reply
  10. Morrissey 10
    8 October 2020 at 8:56 am

    ‘None Of It Reported’: How Corporate Media Buried The Assange Trial

    by DAVID CROMWELL, Media Lens, 7th October 2020

    One of the most imposing features of state-corporate propaganda is its incessant, repetitive nature. Over and over again, the ‘mainstream’ media have to convince the public that ‘our’ government prioritises the health, welfare and livelihoods of the general population, rather than the private interests of an elite stratum of society that owns and runs all the major institutions, banks, corporations and media.

    We are constantly bombarded by government ministers and their media lackeys telling us that ‘our’ armed forces require huge resources, at public expense, to maintain the country’s ‘peace’ and ‘security’. We do not hear so much about the realpolitik of invading, bombing or otherwise ‘intervening’ in other countries with military force, diplomatic muscle, and bribes of trade and aid deals to carve up natural resources and markets for the benefit of a few.

    For those old enough to remember 2002-2003, who can forget the endless repeated rhetoric of the ‘threat’ posed by Iraq’s Saddam Hussein, of how his ‘weapons of mass destruction’ could be launched within 45 minutes of his order, and how ‘we’ simply had to remove him from power? Or how, in 2011, the US, UK and France had to launch ‘humanitarian intervention’ to stop the ‘mass slaughter’ of civilians by Gaddafi’s forces in Libya. And on and on.

    Read more…

    https://www.medialens.org/2020/none-of-it-reported-how-corporate-media-buried-the-assange-trial/

    Reply
    • greywarshark 10.1
      8 October 2020 at 10:04 am

      Thanks Morrissey that makes the point strongly. Most of us will have noticed this in much of the media, but not seen how widely practised it is. Will read later. Keeping up is time-consuming don't you think!

      Reply
      • McFlock 10.1.1
        8 October 2020 at 3:00 pm

        Frankly, the current hearings are just a preamble.

        Not matter the outcome, the losing party will appeal, and the losing party of that will appeal, and so on up to the UK Supreme Court. Again.

        Unless the US gets a sane potus, in which case they might drop it.

        Reply
        • greywarshark 10.1.1.1
          8 October 2020 at 3:43 pm

          There are some and I wish more, people would tell him to get off the pot-us.

          Reply
          • McFlock 10.1.1.1.1
            8 October 2020 at 3:52 pm

            I'm struggling to think of a good call the current oaf has made.

            He's probably only going for extradition because Obama's office reckoned it was too close to the 1st amendment to try.

            Reply
    • Andre 10.2
      8 October 2020 at 3:13 pm

      Umm, it's an extradition hearing, not a trial. Words have actual meanings, and it's helpful to clear communication to use the words that correctly describe a situation. If, on the other hand, your intent is propaganda and disinformation, then misusing words is quite a useful tool.

      I won't be surprised if one of Biden's early actions as president will be to make some statement along the lines of 'Discussions with the incoming Attorney General have affirmed the determination made by Obama and Attorney General Holder in 2013 that it is not in the interest of the United States to prosecute Mr Assange, for the reasons that were publicised at the time. We therefore withdraw the extradition proceedings'.

      Reply
    • Morrissey 11.1
      8 October 2020 at 9:07 am

      This article is spin. Ben Thomas is a National Party operative—more pleasant than Matthew Hooton but just as ideological. He's a regular guest on RNZ National—usually billed as a representative of the ludicrously mislabelled “centre-right.” He’s desperate to put the best possible interpretation on this embarrassment.

      Reply
    • mac1 11.2
      8 October 2020 at 1:18 pm

      Ben Thomas is arguing that if Collins goes, then we'll get a religious right replacement whereas Judith is a liberal.

      Who cares? Such a retreat to the religious right would mean that the National party would split, as it should.

      Who cares? This would mean that National are still in opposition with an illiberal leader. More for ordinary folk to dislike.

      The only downside is that NZ would lack an effective opposition which good democracy demands, in the absence of a second chamber, a presidential/governor-general veto, and now with a four year term being promoted.

      Reply
  12. Anker 12
    8 October 2020 at 9:21 am

    I have had moments of feeling sorry for judith Collins. Pretty humiliating last few days for her.

    but then I remember dirty politics orivida and the lies about her visit to their office and subsequent dinner with a border official. Her association with Cameron Slater. And I think of all the dirty tricks National have pulled over the years too many to list.

    Then I feel more comfortable with Collins being the casualty. Their chickens coming home to roost. Long overdue.

    hope this is causing Key, Joyce and Bennett some pain, but usually psychopathic types feel very little

    Reply
    • Tricledrown 12.1
      8 October 2020 at 10:42 am

      These type are fame seekers and loosing face is a body blow to their arrogant egotistical narcissism.

      Now their reputations have been exposed that's the end of the line National will have to ditch all these Dirty Political players out of a very small caucus given the back stabbing leaks it's going to be a very painful process. ACT being farther to the right in larger numbers will make hard for National to be a centrist party.

      National the strong team is shot to pieces driving around rural areas many farmers who would normally have hoardings up in their paddocks haven't bothered ,

      They are not impressed with National money for campaigning is down .

      After the election blood letting will be the order of they day.

      Reply
      • Wensleydale 12.1.1
        8 October 2020 at 11:29 am

        Bloodletting… and then looking for a new job because you've just been chucked out for behaving like a rapacious brigand, or being content to surround yourself with rapacious brigands. I don't wish Collins any ill-will, but this is pure karma. She's spent her career cultivating a different kind of unpleasantness, one not liberally coated in Teflon. Unlike Saint John of Key, things tend to stick to Judith Collins.

        Reply
      • greywarshark 12.1.2
        8 October 2020 at 12:03 pm

        Nats going to ACT could be a disadvantage to the left. When there is a group herd mentality of rightists they will encourage each other to greater corruption. National when it had some real democratic principles guiding it acted as a brake on the rapacious specialising in sly selfishness and material display, and disdain for citizen equality. As the saying goes – be careful what you wish for.

        Reply
  13. ScottGN 13
    8 October 2020 at 9:28 am

    @Morrissey 11.1

    I think most people will have no trouble sifting through the spin and desperation on this one.

    Reply
  14. Pat 14
    8 October 2020 at 9:39 am

    How real is the possibility that the National Party could splinter into seperate entities a la Labour post Douglas?

    Reply
    • woodart 14.1
      8 October 2020 at 6:22 pm

      good question. with nzfirst looking like not being in parliament ,next term, would presume winston will retire, opens door for many former nats to come in. think nzfirst will survive, and the corpse is worth $$$. who better to pick up a slightly used political party than pissed off cashed up nats? surprised that experts like frankdennis havent pontificated about this possibility. you can bet that people without a real life, like hooten and farrar, have thought about this.

      Reply
  15. adam 15
    8 October 2020 at 10:13 am

    [deleted]

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12371339

    [deleted]

    [please don’t post potentially defamatory comments, it puts the site owners at risk – weka]

    Reply
    • Tricledrown 15.1
      8 October 2020 at 10:30 am

      Key promised to wipe the scourge of P from NZ [deleted]

      Cutting police numbers by 880 while the population increased by 20% played right into the Drug Barrons hands.

      Crushless Collins and pullya Benefit were police ministers administering cuts, while pretending to be tough on Crime.

      [please don’t post potentially defamatory comments, it puts the site owners at risk – weka]

      Reply
      • weka 15.1.1
        8 October 2020 at 11:03 am

        mod note

        Reply
        • adam 15.1.1.1
          8 October 2020 at 10:14 pm

          The worst part weka is you left the link which without comment, which makes it totally fubar.

          Key is a Tory cunt and needs to be called out for his shitfuckery, but no. Can't say that, someone will get offended.

          Reply
          • weka 15.1.1.1.1
            8 October 2020 at 10:42 pm

            you can call him a Tory cunt (honestly held opinion). You can't make claims of fact about him that might end up with Lynn and Mike in court. Nothing to do with being offended, so fuck off with that bullshit lying about moderation. If you have a problem with the site policy take it up with Lynn and see how you get on.

            Reply
    • weka 15.2
      8 October 2020 at 11:03 am

      mod note.

      Reply
    • adam 15.3
      8 October 2020 at 4:17 pm

      Fuck off weka, read some news for fuck sake.

      https://www.icij.org/investigations/fincen-files/

      Key has his hands all over this shit, along with all the other Aussie banks and their bosses.

      Totally fucked off with your censorship, it’s fucking tiresome from you and the other moderators.

      Reply
      • Incognito 15.3.1
        8 October 2020 at 6:20 pm

        You put the site at risk with potentially defamatory content and you think the Moderators are in the wrong protecting the site!? You only seem to be concerned about your own wants & needs on this site and cry foul when you’re moderated, screaming “censorship!”. Commenters like you don’t change their behaviour and are a chronic pain in the arse, IMHO.

        Ultimately the trust is responsible for comments put on the site and we will act against anyone who puts us at what we perceive as a legal risk.

        …

        If we and/or our lawyers feel that the the [sic] comment or post oversteps a legal bound, violates good taste, invades the privacy of people outside the public domain, or goes beyond the scope of our site – then and only then will we do something about it.

        As guidelines to consider. Publishing facts that are manifestly false is relevant to our decision, but clearly stated opinion is not.

        https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/

        Reply
        • adam 15.3.1.1
          8 October 2020 at 10:00 pm

          I know the policy incognito – read what I wrote again, and ask yourself what there is defamation under the law.

          What I said about Key is public record, his bank of which he is on the board – [deleted] The fact the jumped up prick said this maybe you might want to start connecting some dots.

          https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/feb/25/new-zealand-troops-iraq-isis-john-key-parliament-video

          P.S. have you read this site lately – your moderation and those of others has stimmed conversation to the level of a total limited borish fuck fest. It’s dull, repetitive, and limp. No one can have free thought and discussion when you do what you do. Censorship at its core is the shutting down of ideas, and quite frankly incognito, you do that more often than not.

          [6 month ban for ignoring moderation, and picking a fight with mods. You know how it works here, *all you had to do was provide a link backing up your claim. Instead you chose to repeat the defamation and throw shit at moderators.

          This is nothing to do with censorship, and everything to do with setting boundaries to 1. protect the site owners, and 2. protect the moderators so we don’t have to waste time on people who think they can spray shit around the place. Had you in the first or second instance made an actual political argument with evidence there would be no moderation – weka]

          Reply
  16. greywarshark 16
    8 October 2020 at 10:19 am

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427849/authorities-insist-on-nasal-swab-despite-woman-s-bleeding-risk

    Her husband, Warwick Jordan, said she was happy to have as many throat swabs as needed and had even had one before she left Europe to be cautious.

    She was becoming increasingly distressed at being labelled a test dodger, he said. It was her eighth day staying at the Ibis Hotel isolation facility in Rotorua, and every morning since day three a tester and a person in military uniform had turned up asking her to take a nasal test, he said.

    When in Rome do as the Romans do. Old saying that people coming to NZ need to remember; if you want to be here and we let you in, and we have something good you can't get somewhere else (Covid-19 free) then you don't moan and try to organise things to suit yourself you twits. Stay in isolation, and while you are there see if you can find a way to stop your nose bleeding, do some research. Good might come of the time spent inside. (Diet, less warfarin etc.)

    Reply
    • The Al1en 16.1
      8 October 2020 at 10:48 am

      government information given to all guests at the Ibis in Rotorua said though the more sensitive nasal swab was preferred, a throat swab was an option for those who could not tolerate one.

      From your link, the medical note from her doctor should be enough to warrant the throat swab option being used, and certainly not a case of piling on and victim blaming/shaming.

      Reply
      • greywarshark 16.1.1
        8 October 2020 at 10:59 am

        Who is the victim? If any at all, NZ is. Always under attack no matter what we do, and how good the outcomes are.

        Reply
    • weka 16.2
      8 October 2020 at 11:10 am

      Well the Romans in this case are saying a throat swab is an option. From your link,

      "That was despite official documents given to guests on arrival that say a throat swab is an option if necessary."

      Looks like some local level bullshit and I hope the RNZ coverage gets her some better medical treatment. Coercing people into unsafe medical testing is really not ok. But oh look, the MoH not taking any responsibility.

      Reply
      • The Al1en 16.2.1
        8 October 2020 at 11:34 am

        You think people would actually read the articles they link to, eh?
        Would save an awful lot of knee jerking injuries.

        Reply
        • greywarshark 16.2.1.1
          8 October 2020 at 11:50 am

          Anyone looking at the article could draw conclusions from it. Not everyone is as erudite as yourself TA.

          Reply
          • The Al1en 16.2.1.1.1
            8 October 2020 at 11:56 am

            You don't need 'having or showing great knowledge or learning' to see the article contains a valid reason why the woman has a case for medical exemption from a nasal swab, and that quarantining visitors were given the option by authorities to have throat tests in the first place, so yeah, likely it was only the only people who were busy bashing their chin with their patellas who could see a problem and launch an attack.

            Reply
            • McFlock 16.2.1.1.1.1
              8 October 2020 at 6:47 pm

              quarantining visitors were given the option by authorities to have throat tests in the first place

              Hmmm. The copy of the "Welcome pack" on the managed isolation and quarantine site doesn't mention throat swabs at all. Closest it gets is in the appendix: "You should let the person taking the swab know if you have any condition that reduces the strength of your skin, affects the ability of your blood to form clots, or if you are on blood thinning medication. If you have any of these conditions they may decide not to proceed with the test as your health is the primary concern."

              The RNZ article also seems to be unclear as to what is a quote from the DHB medical officer, and what the journalist is stating as fact.

              So this government information that allows travellers to choose which option they want might bear closer examination by whomever distributed it. And the MoH need to sort out whether the online documentation is the same as the documentation actually given in the hand.

              Reply
              • The Al1en …
                8 October 2020 at 8:05 pm

                Just going from the text in the rnz link at 16 – Part of which I quoted in 16.1

                If the info is incorrect I'll retract it as soon as they do, but I will cede to your more informed piece as you appear to have delved in to it.

                Reply
                • McFlock …
                  8 October 2020 at 8:25 pm

                  I have an open mind on it at the moment – it could easily be a case of multiple comms and policy failures between ministry, DHB, and isolation staff, just like 'the sticker says on the box', as it were.

                  But equally, it might be over-egged by a media system that loves emotional pain and also loves sticking unattributed "context" of doubtful accuracy right after direct quotes.

                  Reply
                  • The Al1en …
                    8 October 2020 at 8:30 pm

                    Knowing the media's attention span, it'll all be forgotten tomorrow, but regardless of whether the true facts are revealed, I hope the poor woman can get tested in accordance with her doctor's medical advice.

                    Reply
                    • McFlock …
                      8 October 2020 at 10:45 pm

                      I hope she gets help dealing with isolation and that the staff make it clear that she's not being blamed for refusing that particular test.

                  • weka …
                    8 October 2020 at 9:19 pm

                    whatever the veracity/spin of the story, it looks like reasonably serious communication fail to me, compounded by the MoH's response to RNZ that the decision was up to the DHB. Meaning that there is a decision to be made rather than there being a blanket policy? I'm hoping they don't mean that each DHB can determine its own policy.

                    But as Rosemary and I have said, this is pretty standard DHB and MoH MO. I'm just surprised to see it still happening this far into the pandemic.

                    Reply
                    • McFlock …
                      8 October 2020 at 10:38 pm

                      Unfortunately, it's also standard practise to go to the media when one doesn't like a fair decision that has been made. Especially during election time.

                      And there's a lot in this story hinging on whether an unnamed piece of "government information" explicitly stated that throat swabs could be chosen by the person in isolation, chosen as a common alternative by the isolation facility's testing provider/funder, might be considered by testing provider under specific circumstances, or even mentioned throat swabs specifically at all (in which case that "government information" wasn't the same "welcome pack" I linked to earlier from the MIQ website). One thing that is consistent is that throat swabs are more likely to give a false negative, and thereby enable another cluster to form.

                      So I don't know whether this is another campaign by individuals for a bigger slice of the pie, or another example of shite coordination within the health system crunching people into flour.

                    • weka …
                      8 October 2020 at 10:46 pm

                      yep. As I said in the post, I'm less concerned about the extra time in isolation that I am about the communication. Although people who pay for isolation or those that have jobs or kids to get back to, need to know this stuff in advance.

                      What makes me give RNZ more of the benefit of the doubt than the MoH, and DHB is that I think it's reasonable to assume that RNZ would have fact checked the hotel info that was given out in that specific facility, and this isn't the first time during covid that there have been mixed or contradictory messages from health authorities. They just need to sort it out, not fob it off.

                    • weka …
                      8 October 2020 at 10:47 pm

                      I also think it's entirely possible that the woman has been treated badly. Or she's overegging it for some reason. Who knows, but the story is theoretically credible.

                    • McFlock …
                      8 October 2020 at 11:01 pm

                      This is one of the things I like about some NZ media websites – they'd have a pdf or photo of the document itself, clearing up the veracity question right there.

                      The other query is that they apparently don't have a review process on the ground. I mean, they must have doctors available – what if someone screws up the count on their blood pressure meds? Or was it just easiest for the testing tech to roll their eyes and log it as a refusal, when a doc calling the woman's GP could have gotten more background on why it was an issue?

                      It could even be some bullshit about the lab only getting contracted for the throat swabs, so there's no reason to tell higher ups about the possible reasons for a throat swab instead.

                      There's some fuckage afoot, we just don't know what it is.

      • Rosemary McDonald 16.2.2
        8 October 2020 at 1:21 pm

        Looks like some local level bullshit and I hope the RNZ coverage gets her some better medical treatment. Coercing people into unsafe medical testing is really not ok. But oh look, the MoH not taking any responsibility.

        Sadly, SSDD.

        Some meglomaniacal local bureaucrat willy waving. Encountered so many of their ilk in the disability arena. Even when clearly in error, the higher-ups at the Misery almost always back them up.

        They'd feel like failures if they displayed either compassion or clinical common sense.

        Reply
        • weka 16.2.2.1
          8 October 2020 at 1:24 pm

          Looked like classic health system bullshit to me too.

          I put up a post.

          Is this woman being coerced into unsafe healthcare by the DHB’s handling of covid testing?

          Reply
          • greywarshark 16.2.2.1.1
            8 October 2020 at 5:03 pm

            Nothing like a bunch of smart people who know how to do everything sitting sniping on the sidelines. I think there is a DIploma in that at most universities and erudite educational establishments.

            The piece of news did say that the woman could stay in isolation for another week if she wishes. They may be tightening up on throat swabs to get reliable stats, have all taken the same way. Can you give other people the benefit of the doubt that they know a bit more than you? Or offer a suggestion for change rather than a thundering condemnation?

            Reply
            • weka 16.2.2.1.1.1
              8 October 2020 at 5:28 pm

              I did offer suggestions for change. And I covered what the issues are. You can sit here and try and guess what is going on, my expectation is that the MoH and DHBs communicate much more effectively during a pandemic than they have here.

              Nothing like commenters who don't bother reading a post (and who seem to imply that the author has no expertise).

              Reply
            • The Al1en 16.2.2.1.1.2
              8 October 2020 at 5:38 pm

              Give it up, mate. Claiming we're all smart with qualifications to be know alls just makes your point that much weaker when, in fact, it would be easier for you to acknowledge you made a boo boo in a rush to judgement.

              Yes, the article states she can stay for an extra week, just like it also states the people have volunteered to have as many throat swabs as required, too.

              Assuming the woman is one of those now having to pay for quarantine, why should she shoulder the extra costs involved to stay longer when the people in charge are ignorantly going against the rules they themselves gave to arrivals? And she still has a valid medical reason to avoid nasal poking.

              I wouldn't worry about those erudite classes if I were you, but I would look into seeing if there are any compassion courses going.

              Reply
        • Draco T Bastard 16.2.2.2
          8 October 2020 at 1:50 pm

          Some meglomaniacal local bureaucrat willy waving.

          And who hadn't read the policy. Unfortunately, neither had the defence force person apparently. If they had they could have stepped in and said that a throat swab was fine.

          Reply
    • Gabby 16.3
      8 October 2020 at 11:54 am

      Sounds like a nondecision made by some jobsworth really. Nagging her about it is just the sort of institutional sadism those people get off on.

      Reply
  17. Dennis Frank 17
    8 October 2020 at 10:28 am

    Five minor party leaders in TVNZ's multi-party debate tonight: https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/minor-party-leaders-go-head-in-tvnzs-multi-debate-tonight

    In our High Court yesterday the New Conservative party lost its bid to be included :

    after hearing two hours of submissions, Justice Woolford gave an immediate order dismissing the application with his reasons to follow later. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/court-dismisses-new-conservative-partys-bid-participate-in-tvnz-debate

    Political editor Jessica Mutch McKay will moderate, runs 7-8pm on One.

    Reply
  18. Dennis Frank 18
    8 October 2020 at 10:32 am

    John Campbell talked to James Shaw & Shane Jones for 13 mins this morning & it was extremely good viewing – convivial three-way discourse & to the point. Shane at his best for a change. The segment is viewable here:

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/breakfast/clips/james-shaw-and-shane-jones-talk-politics-with-general-election-less-than-two-weeks-away

    [fixed the link]

    Reply
    • weka 18.1
      8 October 2020 at 10:56 am

      use the share button Dennis. Click on one of them and then cut and past the URL from that. The main Breakfast URL just reverts back to TVNZ.

      Reply
      • Dennis Frank 18.1.1
        8 October 2020 at 11:08 am

        share button

        Where is it?? I put the cursor over all the icons above the reply window & none identified as such…

        Reply
        • weka 18.1.1.1
          8 October 2020 at 11:12 am

          bottom right, in line with the play button. It's the three dots and two lines in a shape like this <

          It will give you a number of options, which might depend on if you have an account with FB, twitter etc, but the email one should work.

          Reply
          • Dennis Frank 18.1.1.1.1
            8 October 2020 at 12:31 pm

            Thanks. I tested the theory by going to their site, found the share icon below right as you said, clicked on the email icon. It produced an email with the clip-specific link contained within, which I could then copy to use here. Simple! yes

            Reply
            • weka 18.1.1.1.1.1
              8 October 2020 at 12:39 pm

              nice one! This works from quite a few websites that like to control their URLs. It's also good practice to chop the tracking bits off the end of URLs eg FB links. That's everything after the ?

              Reply
  19. Andre 19
    8 October 2020 at 10:43 am

    When your own team has spent decades honing their savage attack skills, then they get a wee bit grouchy with you, it's not a good idea to poke them with a stick.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/10/7/1984433/–Trump-Goes-Decides-To-Go-Up-Against-Steve-Schmidt-Bad-Move

    Result is kinda like:

    More good background on The Lincoln Project linked below. Note that very few people are endorsing them, or are under the delusion they are anything other than dangerous operatives opposed to everything progressive. Nevertheless, there is still a very temporary alignment of interests as they vainly attempt to wipe the cheeto-tinged skidmark from their image and reputations.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/10/12/inside-the-lincoln-projects-war-against-trump

    Reply
  20. greywarshark 20
    8 October 2020 at 10:44 am

    Degrowth. Degrowth. DEGROWTH. Trying the word out for size, to get familiarity with it. Not heard it before. How would this be helpful for us?

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2018766960/jason-hickel-how-degrowth-will-save-the-world

    Enough is enough and more is too much, says Dr Jason Hickel, an economic anthropologist at Goldsmiths University of London…
    He makes his case in his new book Less is More: How DeGrowth Will Save The World. …

    The current ecological crisis is systemic, not the result of individual bad behaviour, Hickel says.
    “It’s ultimately being driven by a system – capitalism – that requires perpetual expansion.
    “So, we basically become victims of this system and so too does the planet.”

    Degrowth and recession are not the same things, he says
    “A recession is what happens when a growth-oriented economy like capitalism fails to get growth, things fall apart.”…

    Much of Europe outperforms the USA with only a third or a half of America’s GDP, he says.
    “The answer is some countries distribute income more fairly and crucially invest in universal public services like robust education and welfare, affordable housing and public transportation.”

    And the growth mantra is fuelling the greatest crisis humanity has faced, he says….

    “We’re not really seeing it in our politics yet, except in a few countries, New Zealand being one of them actually where this is a conversation that is happening.”

    Hear, hear, here, to this. When do we want it? – We want it now.
    What did you say? – We want it now.
    Do we really need it? – Yes we really do!:

    “We need economies that can shift into a lower gear without harming people’s lives, so degrowth basically calls for a planned down-shifting of the economy so that we use less fossil fuels, we use less unnecessary resources but at the same time distribute existing income and opportunities more fairly so that people can have access to the things they need to live flourishing lives.”

    😀

    Reply
    • Dennis Frank 20.1
      8 October 2020 at 11:14 am

      Not heard it before.

      Well, that's a puzzle! Much mentioned here in recent years by myself & Weka, if not others. But yeah, thanks for posting about that book!

      Incidentally, the word just codifies the steady-state economy really, so it's jargon updating the Green alt-economy agenda from almost half a century back…

      Reply
      • greywarshark 20.1.1
        8 October 2020 at 11:48 am

        Mentioned degrowth – yes. Many things have been mentioned over the 20th century and recently but getting everyone to pay attention and then accept and see workable ways of putting the ideas into practice is the task of Sisyphus. Has to go beyond wise guys on political blogs. And by wise guys I mean both the fact of your wisdom, and the flip comment that the general public often makes.

        Reply
  21. tc 21
    8 October 2020 at 10:53 am

    Granny wheels out some fluff copy for shonky john to slap his moniker against about how great Jude's going.

    Then shonky john gets to tell everyone why he's voting no on cannabis reform. Zero surprises from the tobacco and alcohol party.

    Reply
  22. greywarshark 22
    8 October 2020 at 10:55 am

    Is it possible to concentrate on getting the election over with left facing parties in and standing shoulder to shoulder in strength and commitment for that and not get onto all the particular wounds we need to address?S Munro?

    Reply
  23. ScottGN 23
    8 October 2020 at 11:06 am

    Haha. Hosking in the Herald says the election is Labour’s to lose and that’s why we’re so nervous. There will be an absolute torrent of this tripe from all the usual suspects over the next few days.

    Reply
  25. Descendant Of Smith 25
    8 October 2020 at 12:29 pm

    Employers still being dinosaurs.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123020092/ema-under-fire-over-gross-employment-presentation

    It's OK apparently to scour peoples facebook pages when wanting to employ them – it is time actually that an actual ethical position is taken that it is not. Facebook does not always equal real life.

    I can't believe this sort of juvenile memeing/dog-whistling/sexist/racist bull-shit is part of a presentation to employers. But then I can cause having been part of many groups with them involved I have been exposed to their banality. There are good intelligent employers out there but this sought of crap gives them a bad name. And plenty of us baby boomers can't stand Elvis.

    Then of course comes the fake apology. The ridiculous we apologise if you were offended. What about just simply saying "we're a bunch of idiots and Ms Sparke is right"

    "In a statement, the association (EMA) chief executive Brett O’Riley said the presenter had attempted to “inject some lightness into a complex topic”.

    “We apologise if this caused Ms Sparke offence. The deliberately provocative slide of the heavily tattooed and pierced person was used to highlight what employers cannot and must not discriminate against.”

    A second slide compared the attitudes of three generations – baby boomers, Gen X and Gen Y – to work, sex, money and other influences.

    While baby boomers were shown to be prepared to work their way to the top, Gen X were said to be looking for a shortcut, and Gen Y purportedly threatened to quit unless they were given Saturday off."

    I have a feeling they were in the cart for the same/similar presentation a few years back as well.

    Reply
    • Nic the NZer 25.1
      8 October 2020 at 1:01 pm

      I would say Ms Sparke comes off extremely well there. I don't doubt the EMA would be pushing some form of group identity narrative if it suites their purpose while continuing to claim Green politics is the divisive force.

      Reply
  26. joe90 26
    8 October 2020 at 12:32 pm

    But he's pro-life!

    But riddle me this.

    Trump is pushing for Amy Coney Barrett to reach the Supreme Court, not because he gives a flying fruitcake about the right to life or any other rights. His powerful donors do, though, and he has to keep them happy if he’s to stay in power.

    And Trump was standing on that balcony, touting his virility and strength, but leaving out the one drug that contributed to his recovery: Regeneron.

    Perhaps you heard the docs talk about monoclonal antibodies. They worked wonders in fighting back Ebola, and scientists have hope for its use in other diseases, though it’s still experimental in COVID-19.

    Here’s the rub. The antibodies come from stem cells recovered from human embryos.

    How do I know? Regeneron told me so:

    From their website:

    “As is the case with many other science-focused biotechnology companies, Regeneron uses a wide variety of research tools and technologies to help discover and develop new therapeutics. Stem cells are one such tool. The stem cells most commonly used at Regeneron are mouse embryonic stem cells and human blood stem cells. Currently, there are limited research efforts employing human-induced pluripotent stem cell lines derived from adult human cells and human embryonic stem cells that are approved for research use by the National Institutes of Health and created solely through in vitro fertilization.”

    They further explain in a paper in the journal Science, “The cells were originally isolated …from an aborted human fetus.”

    For the West Coast audience, that’s, “…an aborted human fetus.”

    https://medium.com/illumination/the-state-of-the-nation-hypocrisy-version-8f8ff98bcefa

    Reply
  27. Muttonbird 27
    8 October 2020 at 1:29 pm

    Nobel Peace Prize announced 10pm Friday.

    How did the Nobel Committee know that was one week before the New Zealand general election?

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2020/10/what-jacinda-ardern-will-receive-if-she-wins-the-2020-nobel-peace-prize.html

    Reply
  28. greywarshark 28
    8 October 2020 at 1:47 pm

    A quiet read to take the mind of the hubbub of the present . 'What did we do before the world wars Mum and Dad'? Will we have to consider reshaping our lives to achieve similar?

    1870 is the setting for the Lark Rise to Candleford book trilogy summarised below.

    About it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lark_Rise

    Flora Thompson's immortal trilogy, containing "Lark Rise", "Over To Candleford" and "Candleford Green", is a heartwarming portrayal of country life at the close of the 19th century.

    This story of three closely related Oxfordshire communities – a hamlet, the nearby village and a small market town – is based on the author's experiences during childhood and youth. It chronicles May Day celebrations and forgotten children's games, the daily lives of farmworkers and craftsmen, friends and relations – all painted with a gaiety and freshness of observation that make this trilogy an evocative and sensitive memorial to Victorian rural England.

    The stories are available on Project Gutenberg. But I don't know just how and copyright law for one's own country throws a shadow.

    This is the Australian entry relating to Gutenberg and the law.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gutenberg_Australia

    This is the general info about project Gutenberg.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gutenberg

    These sites are newly available.
    https://www.gutenberg.org/help/new_website.html
    https://www.gutenberg.org/

    Reply
  29. Matiri 29
    8 October 2020 at 2:18 pm

    Unprecedented recommendation from New England Journal of Medicine to vote Trump out of office

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2029812?fbclid=IwAR1ItqGusykclxzEVo8EmRlWA0H5MNtGfSoxk0RidlrNCaaBsxG074UlUtg

    Reply
  30. Andre 30
    8 October 2020 at 2:30 pm

    Hoo boy. The cult that SCOTUS nominee Barrett belongs to may literally have been the inspiration for "The Handmaid's Tale".

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/amy-coney-barrett-handmaid-people-of-praise_n_5f7dfbd6c5b6fc1dec78c952

    Reply
  31. Cricklewood 31
    8 October 2020 at 2:56 pm

    Fuck the Warehouse and its associated brands… healthy profit on the back of the wage subsidies… plenty of cash on hand…and they say without it they would have had a 4 million loss, I say keep the 4 million and hand the other 50 million or so back…

    Corporations have taken the pissand are lining their executive and shareholder pockets.

    The new govt needs to send Ird into these businesses and assess their actual eligibility and contemplate a Covid Koha tax on these pofitable firms

    Reply
  32. ianmac 32
    8 October 2020 at 4:30 pm

    Well, I accidentally watched the Harris Pence debate. Pence would start an answer with a rabbit hole then start to answer the actual question and run over his allotted 2minutes, looking hard done by for not having enough time to answer. Repeatedly. (God would be clutched in the Pence right fist as he would, if he got the chance, like to carry out the very right agenda. Warning! Warning!)

    Harris came across as informed, fluent and answered the questions pretty concisely. Make a good President? Yes. (Reminded me of Jacinda???)

    There was a live spaced -out masked audience who were completely silent throughout.

    The winner was the black fly sitting on Pence's very white hair.

    Reply
  33. Ffloyd 33
    8 October 2020 at 4:39 pm

    Spaced-out. Lol.

    Reply
  34. greywarshark 34
    8 October 2020 at 4:43 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/caucus/story/2018767507/collins-and-peters-on-thin-ice-as-ardern-finds-her-feet

    Image of praying/preying mantis woman in church with plastic bottle. Is it ordinary drinking water, christening water, or hand sanitiser all ready to 'cleanse the spot from my hand' – Shakespeare?

    Declaims in voice of doom: Will all great Neptune's ocean wash this blood clean from my hand?

    Reply
  35. Dennis Frank 35
    8 October 2020 at 4:53 pm

    ASA, a regulator unable to enforce decisions. Very postmodern.

    Advertising Standards Authority chief executive Hilary Souter said the Authority was a voluntary organisation; it relied on its members (which include most major media, advertising and marketing groupings) to comply with its rulings. "It's disappointing that we've got really good engagement from all the other parties but that Advance NZ have chosen not to engage," she said. "But we don't have any legislative framework behind us – we haven't needed to in the past."

    Last night, the party's co-leader Jami-Lee Ross told Newsroom they would not comply with the ruling against using the advertisements again.

    "The ASA should not be trying to interfere in election debate and the free speech of political parties," he said. "They have no standing in regulating free speech. The evidence to back up our claims were in the advert in question at the bottom. We stand by the ads' content."

    Last year, Justice Minister Andrew Little said he had little confidence in the Authority, after it rejected his complaint against a National Party advertisement.

    "I just think they're not equipped to do the quasi-judicial job of ensuring that somebody who asserts in a paid advertisement that it is in fact," Little said. "The test that the Advertising Standards Authority seems to use now is that if the advertiser believes it to be true then it will be true."

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/politics/jami-lee-ross-defies-ad-ruling-as-complaints-surge

    Expert practitioners of postmodernism then, the ASA. ANZ & JLR, expert practitioners of truthiness. Each group deserves the other…

    Reply

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