Open Mike 08/12/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 8th, 2018 - 268 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

268 comments on “Open Mike 08/12/2018”

    • freethinker 1.1

      No, you’re wrong James. He should pay more tax, Govt should then set up an advisory committee staffed by Labour faithful who get their cut, then the diversity advisors can filter a bit more out, then Iwi, with the resulting much-dimished sum forming an election bribe to gullible students. Get with the new picture. 😐

    • Red Blooded One 1.2

      As you say, Good on him. Why are YOU hating on him. It neither makes him a good or a bad person but someone who has made a good gesture. Try and cheer up and see the good James.

      • veutoviper 1.2.1

        Huh? Where in his comment does James suggest that he is “hating on him”? Or are you just showing your own prejudices towards James because he is not a leftie?

        • Red Blooded One 1.2.1.1

          Bloody rich people huh? He’s the one making that statement, no one else here did today, he sure is trying to hate on someone, but yes he did prove my prejudice is justified.

          • veutoviper 1.2.1.1.1

            You have my sympathy if you cannot consider that, rather than “hating on someone”, what James might be suggesting is that not all “bloody rich people” are selfish arseholes and some are prepared to share their wealth in philanthropic ways such as donations to universities.

            • Red Blooded One 1.2.1.1.1.1

              And you have my sympathy if you think celebrating a good deed is a good excuse to start a flame war at 06:33 am. Good deeds are done by all segments of society, Left/Right, Rich/Poor all based on what they can do or how much wealth they have and they should be all acknowledged accordingly. Congratulations to Graeme Hart for a great donation that should help many people.

              • veutoviper

                If you think James started a ‘flame war’ with his remarks, why did you fuel it with your remarks about James “hating on him”?

            • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1.1.2

              share their wealth in philanthropic ways such as donations to universities.

              Meanwhile they’re cheating on their taxes to a far greater extent and the only reason why they got rich in the first place was because they were stealing from the workers.

              • JohnSelway

                Do you have evidence he is cheating on his taxes? And not all rich people get that way by stealing from others. You realise that right?
                You know it’s possible to be rich and moral/socially conscious right?

          • ianmac 1.2.1.1.2

            “Bloody Rich People” is James being smart and he thinks it is mocking all those Lefties who all despise Rich Pricks.

            • Red Blooded One 1.2.1.1.2.1

              Yes, I should have known better than to bite. What is the saying re Sarcasm being the lowest form of Wit. I suspect he is half there. Have a lovely day.

          • Ankerrawshark 1.2.1.1.3

            Hart does done a good thing with some amount of his money. I am pleased he has. It is likely he will get good feelings from it too cause we know this is what happens when we give. It’s a win win all round”………

            But let’s use it as a call to action for our govt to fund essential health services………..

            By the way I think the truly great people are the dentists, dr nurses, health auxiliary who train for many years and work day in and day out………dentistry is a particularly thankless job and is associated with high suicide rate

            • Enough 1.2.1.1.3.1

              A call to action that should start with saving the country’s AYA cancer support service. Next week will see the axing of all CanTeen’s regional youth workers and closure of Hamilton, Hawkes Bay, Dunedin and Taranaki centres. Don’t develop cancers if you’re 14 to 25 years old and live there.

    • Ad 1.3

      It’s a really good signal from one of our key citizens to all other of our 1% to donate more towards education.

      It’s also particularly good that it is going towards dentistry for people who can’t afford it in South Auckland.

      • veutoviper 1.3.1

        Well said.

      • mauī 1.3.2

        How does he get the status of “key citizen”? Has he done anything particularly special for the countryz? I bet most kiwis would have no idea who he is.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.3.2.1

          Has he done anything particularly special for the countryz?

          Apparently stealing from lots of people and causing poverty is how to become a ‘key citizen’.

          • JohnSelway 1.3.2.1.1

            Do you have evidence he stole from people? It’s a bold claim which you should back up

          • Tuppence Shrewsbury 1.3.2.1.2

            Go back to your Mum’s basement with your goth metal idealising dolled up females Draco

      • One Two 1.3.3

        Actually it’s a signal that the balance is so lopsided, the people who get seen as philanthropists are those who gained in the back of other peoples sweat and blood…

        It is also a cover which allows the govt to hide behind explaining why education, health and other essential social services can’t be fully funded all the time…which of course they can be…

        Donations such as this are only necessary in the mirage that is being protected at cost to all else…

        Key citizens…Ad …awful!

      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 1.3.4

        Hear hear

    • AB 1.4

      It’s nothing to do with whether he is a good or bad person. But the donation raises a question. If the money he has appropriated for himself was actually better distributed across the community in the first place, would the donation even be necessary?
      A society that relies on charity is like one that relies on the proceeds of gambling. It’s a society that’s not working properly.

      • Ad 1.4.1

        We should all demonstrate that we are good citizens who do more to support society than simply relying on the state to do it all. Charity is one of those things that demonstrate that, and it’s a stronger moral duty on the 1% than anyone else.

        • AB 1.4.1.1

          I agree with the sentiment, but at no point did I say or mean anything about relying on the state to do it all. I was pointing out the internal contradictions of charity as a means of social organisation, especially where it focuses and fawns on the munificence of the wealthy.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.4.1.2

          Charity being necessary is proof that we’re not paying enough tax – especially the rich.

          In fact, the rich shouldn’t exist as they’re the problem and not the solution.

          • Stunned Mullet 1.4.1.2.1

            🙄

          • Chris T 1.4.1.2.2

            WTF?

            • Draco T Bastard 1.4.1.2.2.1

              https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists

              Modelling a range of different scenarios, Motesharrei and his colleagues conclude that under conditions “closely reflecting the reality of the world today… we find that collapse is difficult to avoid.” In the first of these scenarios, civilisation:

              “…. appears to be on a sustainable path for quite a long time, but even using an optimal depletion rate and starting with a very small number of Elites, the Elites eventually consume too much, resulting in a famine among Commoners that eventually causes the collapse of society. It is important to note that this Type-L collapse is due to an inequality-induced famine that causes a loss of workers, rather than a collapse of Nature.”

              What’s that favourite of the RWNJs? That people shouldn’t have children if they can’t afford them?

              Yeah, the rich are the problem.

      • Antoine 1.4.2

        > It’s nothing to do with whether he is a good or bad person.

        That seems false. It shows that he is a good person, at least in this act. People should be grateful.

        A.

        • Blazer 1.4.2.1

          Hart should be grateful.
          Good to see him give something back ,seeing as he purchased the Govt Printing Office for around 1/5th of its real market value.

          Lange opposed the deal,so Prebble/Douglas went behind his back.
          Hart has parlayed that windfall into a billion dollar empire using the time honoured tradition of redundancies,consolidation and asset stripping.

          • AB 1.4.2.1.1

            Yes – accumulation by dispossession is not forgiveable simply because some of the accumulated wealth trickles back to the dispossessed via charity.

        • AB 1.4.2.2

          Let me rephrase it then to avoid your misrepresentation.
          “If I greet Mr Hart’s donation with anything less than fawning adulation, it has nothing to do with whether he is a good or bad person”

        • Draco T Bastard 1.4.2.3

          Why should we be grateful about his theft from so many?

      • Draco T Bastard 1.4.3

        If the money he has appropriated for himself was actually better distributed across the community in the first place, would the donation even be necessary?

        If the money was better distributed across society we’d probably eliminate poverty in this country.

        A society that relies on charity is like one that relies on the proceeds of gambling. It’s a society that’s not working properly.

        QFT

    • Sanctuary 1.5

      Personally, I resent the state having to rely on the charity of the rich to function. If he happily pays his full share of taxes, then the university won’t need whatever wealth he decides is surplus to his needs. That is what socialism is – no longer being grateful for whatever crumbs the rich decide to give you.

      • Antoine 1.5.1

        What makes you think he doesn’t pay his fair share of tax?

        What do you know about his tax affairs.

        A.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.5.1.1

          What makes you think he doesn’t pay his fair share of tax?

          He’s rich so we can assume that he’s a) dodging all sorts of taxes that most other people pay and b) that he bludged all the money he has causing massive poverty.

          • JohnSelway 1.5.1.1.1

            Evidence he’s a tax dodger please

            • Muttonbird 1.5.1.1.1.1

              Graeme Hart’s Mum has joined the board.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.5.1.1.1.2

              He’s rich. Evidence enough.

              • JohnSelway

                No it isn’t evidence

                • Draco T Bastard

                  As the only way to get rich is through theft then, yes, it is.

                  • JohnSelway

                    No it isn’t. Is the famous author or musician or artist a thief?

                    • greywarshark

                      What’s with you John S. Do you think you are in a court of law? Just say that DTB is making unfounded assumptions and stop filling up the thread with your demands.

                    • JohnSelway

                      This is open mike is it not?

                  • JohnSelway

                    Or the brain surgeon?

                    • greywarshark

                      It’s Open mike, but participants are expected to bring something worthwhile to the feast; writers a plate please! Otherwise you are more like a nongate-crasher.

                  • Chris T

                    Do you go on holiday?

                    If you do you are richer than someone who can’t

                    You have the internet. Other people can’t afford it

                    Why are you not paying enough tax?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Having those things is not the same as being rich.

                      Rich = living upon other people’s work without providing value equivalent to the value received

                      In other words being rich = being a thief.

                    • JohnSelway

                      No Draco you are wrong. Stephen King has sold in excess of 350 million copies of his work which would make him very rich indeed.

                      That’s his own efforts. Not a thief and rich

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      No Draco you are wrong.

                      No, I’m right.

                      Stephen King has sold in excess of 350 million copies of his work which would make him very rich indeed.

                      What if we all got together and decided that Stephen King wrote really good fiction and that we should support him in this with his work then being freely available to anyone who wants to read it.

                      How much do you think we’d decide to pay him? More or less than he got from selling his books?

                      And I’d say that Stephen King has put a hell of a lot of that income he got from his books into gathering unearned income.

                    • JohnSelway

                      That’s just an assumption you’re making. Evidence or GTFO. Fact is King got rich from selling his books, his own work. Which is why you are wrong and just making assumptions

                  • Chris T

                    There is no reply button for your other post

                    So Ardern, who is one of the highest paid people in the country and is paid by workers tax, is a thief?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      She may be paid excessively but she does actually work.

                      The rich tend to have passive income on top of any wages/salary. It’s the passive income that is the theft. The passive income is unearned.

                      Ardern probably does have some passive income which would make her a thief.

                  • Naki man

                    What Draco means is that he doesnt know how to become rich.
                    It sounds like he has failed and is on the bones of his arse and are very bitter.

          • Stunned Mullet 1.5.1.1.2

            🙄 just like we can assume those who are struggling are drug addicts and bludgers 🙄

        • Morrissey 1.5.1.2

          What makes you think he doesn’t pay his fair share of tax?

          How do you know he DOES pay his fair share of tax?

          • Chris T 1.5.1.2.1

            You are the one making the claim that he doesn’t

            • Ed 1.5.1.2.1.1

              Do you think the megarich pay their fair share of tax?

              • Chris T

                I’d want proof particular ones don’t before tarring every single one with the same brush.

                It is a bit like saying all National voters are greedy and don’t care about the environment, or all Labour voters are tree hugging SJWs

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Considering the estimated fraud I actually want proof that a rich person isn’t rorting the system.

                  Of course, the system is designed to help a few people steal from everyone else so even if they’re not rorting the system they’re still acting immorally.

                  • Ankerrawshark

                    Aside from anything else I just don’t think it’s healthy to have accumulated such wealth. Just my opinion. I can never fathom why people would want that much money. Given that radical economic transformation isn’t about to happen anytime soon, I prefer mr hart has given some money to this dental school. It a very worthy endeavor…..

                    Btw jacinda arderns only asset is her house, which she has a mortgage on…..

                • Rapunzel

                  That’s quite funny as on lots of sites I see “lefties” “tarred” with the same brush all the time and there is no “proof” or truth in what is said when they are all labelled, lazy, shiftless, useless, unemployed, inemployable, dumb, that they have lots of “kids”, etc and that they deserve everything they “get” for being all of the aforementioned things.
                  If what you are saying is don’t generalise that is very good advice.

                • Morrissey

                  …all National voters are greedy and don’t care about the environment, or all Labour voters are tree hugging SJWs

                  That’s actually quite a fair summation of both parties.

              • James

                Fair share is a subjective measure.

                A thief on the other hand is someone who has stolen from others.

                A claim Draco throws around without evidence and shows him to be delusion and envious.

        • reason 1.5.1.3

          Your wrong Antoine

          Although Hart is no where as bad as that wanker Eric watson …. he’s no saint either

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12020225

          ” the core of the dispute was a $48m loan by the Chilean subsidiary to its British Virgin Islands parent.”

          HHHmmm

          https://www.michaelwest.com.au/top40-tax-dodgers-countdown-critics-and-trends/

          Variously, costs are bulked up, every possible tax deduction is deployed, interest is raked out to foreign associates via loan payments, other income is funnelled offshore via “service fees”, intellectual property payments, and swaps and other derivatives. ”

          ” The majority of the tax avoidance is accomplished by wiping out taxable income, not by paying a low tax rate on taxable income.”

          ” interest payments are made to offshore associates, and so on.”

          Heres some other billionaires who give to charity

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGITecuBEHQ … how good are they ?

      • Ad 1.5.2

        Yeah that’s fair.

        Since 1985, the distribution of earnings in NZ widened by 22%, compared to an average rise in the OECD of 15%. Capital income has become more unequally distributed, at a faster rate than in most OECD countries.

        There should not be billionaires in this world.

        • Antoine 1.5.2.1

          The inequality isnt his fault!

          A.

          • Ad 1.5.2.1.1

            It really is.

            You know how many people own as much wealth as 3.7 billion people?

            42

            It’s worse than mere fault: it is an evil.

            • Antoine 1.5.2.1.1.1

              Blame the system, not the individual rich person.

              A.

            • JohnSelway 1.5.2.1.1.2

              It’s horrifying that so few have so much. I don’t care if you’re rich but I do care when you hoard

              • Draco T Bastard

                Being rich is a state of hoarding.

                • JohnSelway

                  No it isn’t

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    I suggest you read Piketty because his research shows that it really is. It’s how rich people always destroy a society.

                    • JohnSelway

                      I’ve read piketty. There are rich and well off people in our society who pay all their taxes and aren’t the super rich hoarders you are claiming them to be

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      You obviously need to read him again. He specifically states that having wealth results in the accumulation of more wealth.

                      Hoarding.

                    • JohnSelway

                      Just because he said it doesn’t mean he is right. I’ve known plenty of modest and honest rich people

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Just because he said it doesn’t mean he is right.

                      He not only said it but has the research to back it up.

                      Rich people are hoarders. In most cases they’re rich because they’re hoarders.

                    • JohnSelway

                      All you have is evidence free assertions.

                      Before my father died he was very wealthy. He only had one home. A couple of vehicles and made his living as a fairly well known and respected doctor. That’s it. You are talking shit

    • SaveNZ 1.6

      Good on him, but what about the rest of the country? Time they worked out why everyones teeth as so bad. Too much sugar and acid and processed food is a big factor. Time poor food and harmful drinks have safety labelling on them like cigarettes. Would also help if people had the ability to cook again rather than working 2 jobs or having so little money or skills or being on drugs (that apparently we feel the need to encourage drug smugglers to settle in NZ to help make drugs more freely available).

      I’m not sure this evolution for 2 parents working has been the best for society – no time for cooking and kids being raised by minimum wages child care workers, is that really creating healthy happy communities and society. It has gone from a women’s right to choose to work, to begin forced to work for financial reasons as you need two incomes to survive in many cases these days.

      P>S> I think I read that Sroubek’s business was importing in fruit juice (plus drugs) so another reason to deport him as most fruit juice is worse than coke for your teeth due to acidity and sugar levels.

    • Gabby 1.7

      What’s the catch? Is it for a Chair in Barbecuology?

    • Morrissey 1.8

      “Good on him”??!!?? Why isn’t he paying his fair share of tax?

      Our universities and schools do not depend on the whims of the likes of this rich fool.

      • greywarshark 1.8.1

        I notice that James’ comment at 1 has resulted in about 55 replies. It is good to be getting that level of critique on the important issues of our time, and the methods we can use to meet our problems.

        It is enthusiasm for discussing the important matters by so many here that gives The Standard prominence for intelligent, incisive citizen involvement in preparing for the future, among the numbers of blogs discussing NZs direction and approach

    • Draco T Bastard 1.9

      Nope. The university shouldn’t need donations and only bludgers are that rich.

    • Incognito 1.10

      Arise, Sir Graeme!

  1. A 2

    Mesh victims denied the right to sue Johnson & Johnson because US judge decides ACC can pay. 22% of mesh claims denied by ACC.

    Why is NZ paying for J&J negligence?

    And why do we insist on dragging the pain out? Just help them ffs.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/109061370/mesh-destroys-intimacy-in-marriage-but-kiwi-victim-cannot-sue

    • A 2.1

      Quote from link above:

      US court evidence showing that medical device manufacturers knew surgical mesh could cause catastrophic injuries including “a permanently destroyed vagina” was provided to New Zealand politicians on a health select committee in 2014.

      In other words the ACC scheme has made us a dumping ground for dodgy products. Negligent US companies don’t care because unlike NZ companies they don’t pay into the scheme, but they are benefiting.

      • Gabby 2.1.1

        Was Baarp Baaarp Coleman minister at the time?

      • Molly 2.1.2

        Even worse, those injured are finding themselves in court against ACC because ACC refuses to accept their claims of injury.

        I have a friend who went through this traumatic experience that lasted well over ten years. The NZ surgeons both refused to accept the mesh products were causing harm, and also lied when they assured that all the mesh had been removed after more surgeries.

        Alongside this, ACC has refused to acknowledge injury saying it was impossible to determine that the ill health and pain was caused by the mesh. ACC presented doctors opinions in court from doctors that had not examined my friend, but had reviewed the other doctors records. That case is ongoing.

        The only relief was from the loan of money from family that allowed her to go – along with other NZ and Australian women – to Dr Veronica in the US, who is surgically removing all traces of mesh product the most successfully. Apparently, his surgery schedule is filled with these cases and he is now very experienced and very likely to have a good outcome. After a typical surgery recovery – never experienced prior – as the pain and infections were always ongoing – her health and wellbeing improved immensely.

        ACC still is fighting her case, and this injury and ACC denial experience will be shared by many women in NZ.

        • greywarshark 2.1.3.1

          Thanks joe90
          I had heard in the past that USA continues selling overseas things that have been banned in the USA. This item is an indictment on them and that practice.

    • SaveNZ 2.2

      Good points A.

  2. gsays 3

    A piece of good news, our cricket team have won a series overseas.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/109176715/black-caps-set-pakistan-280-to-win-in-79-overs-on-final-day-of-deciding-test

    A captain’s knock, another debutant spinner having a blinder (a bit Australian….), a target set for the opposition and a great two sessions of cricket.
    Congratulations to the captain, coach and team.

    • gsays 3.1

      A cruel situation.
      It seems these women were no more than guinea pigs, unaware participants in a trial.

      Perhaps ACC can cover all victims, then ACC can sue Ethicon/Johnson & Johnson to recover costs.
      After all, isn’t that what the resolution part of the TPPA is for?

      • gsays 3.1.1

        Oops.
        Replied to my self rather than A’s comment.
        Either the height of arrogance or the coffee hadn’t kicked in yet.

    • mauī 3.2

      I’m not sure it’s a totally legit result. Pakistan’s run chase in the 1st test looks real dodgy in my opinion.

    • Gabby 3.3

      What were the odds eh g? And who took those odds?

    • Ankerrawshark 3.4

      Says yeah wow go the black caps….great game to watch

  3. Ad 4

    If dating were like a job interview.
    Thank God for Findsomeone.

  4. lenore 5

    A few of us were discussing how people rise up in the ranks but are bullies. Some are pretty obvious but then you get the smiling assassins. Like Diane Maxwell. I can picture her being the girl who excluded others in those awful triads that girls get sucked into. Socialised to be extremely articulate from a young age as many girls are, this type of bully often becomes the ‘teacher’s pet’, head girl and is very successful. Their bullying is insidious and I believe the bullys have no idea now that they have been outed. Complete lack of awareness because their type of bullying has been ok most of their lives. Anyway just a theory – and observations from my own experiences and that of my three daughters.

    • Sacha 5.1

      Maggie Barry has form, say previous staffers and public servants who worked closely with her as Minister: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12173091

      “I’ve seen people saying since this came out that the staff are being precious,” she said. But that is untrue, claimed the official, who believes “the difference is that her behaviour with people she doesn’t like is so vitriolic and so consistent over time that it becomes traumatic.”

      • Anne 5.1.1

        And this bit:

        Parliamentary Service, which employs MPs’ support staff, contacted the whistleblower on Wednesday night to ask him to stop sharing private and confidential information, or it would be “forced” to act.

        It said the decision “was not made lightly” but it was concerned that other staff’s personal information was being made public, causing distress.

        The staffer said the fact he was the one in legal jeopardy when he had come forward to Parliamentary Service with evidence of alleged unlawful and bullying behaviour was ironic.

        “It reinforces the issue that I have with powerful people getting protected and promoted. I’ve lost my job and she still has her job – that’s typical,” he claimed.

        Having been down this particular road more than once in the past I’m livid with rage that it is still going on.

        Who the hell do Parliamentary Services think they are? They are supposed to support staff and take appropriate action on their behalf against violent bullies. And believe me Maggie B is a ‘violent bully’. No, she doesn’t go around bashing people with pieces of wood, Her method of destruction is psychological. She hounds and harasses with verbal violence to the point her targets lose all their confidence and self esteem and can no longer operate. Then, when they finally manage to muster up the strength to report the behaviour, they lie through their teeth and lay the blame at their targets’ feet.

        Bullies of this calibre have no empathy for their victims and happily destroy lives everywhere they go without a hint of a conscience. They demean and denigrate them in front of people. They spread garbage about them behind their backs and call them ‘nutters’ when in fact… they are the nutters.

        This young man who is putting it out there is exceedingly brave and I applaud him for doing so. My only hope is he is getting plenty of support because he will need it. I also know from experience his former superiors directly in the firing line will stop at virtually nothing to silence him.

        • Anne 5.1.1.1

          Oops: third to last paragraph should read … she lies through her teeth etc. It is the hall mark of any big time bully girl or boy.

          • OnceWasTim 5.1.1.1.1

            Unfortunately @ Anne, someone needs to come up with an updated Peter Principle.
            Although I’m not suggesting our public service was perfect before the 80s reforms, sure as shit a new phenomenon has emerged.

            It goes along the lines of the Edmonds Baking Powder slogan “sure to rise”.
            The higher they rise however, the more versed in spin, lying and bullshit, self-preservation, politicisation, leaking, etc. they become.
            When you look at the record – especially over the past decade, it’s becoming harder to know which little dysfunctional feifdom is worst.
            Is it MPI? or NZTA/MOT?, or MBIE and all its chattels? or maybe Krekshuns? or DSW/WINZ? or Health? or even Edgeikayshun, HCNZ even.

            You’d have to admit it’s a bloody sorry record, but what’s worse is that the coalition don’t seem to realise that a good many of their ‘officials’ are more than likely their worst enemas – even if they’re nice blokes and blokesses.

            I keep saying – “roll on Chippie’s reforms”, though I’m not that hopeful.
            Some of us did (for example) try to warn I L-G he was going to be set up – although that little episode might yet backfire.

            Cudda Shudda Wudda eh?

        • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.2

          Having been down this particular road more than once in the past I’m livid with rage that it is still going on.

          Can’t say that I’m surprised. IMO, powerful people have become even more protected over the last couple of decades.

          Who the hell do Parliamentary Services think they are?

          They seem to think that they’re the protectors of the powerful.

          And believe me Maggie B is a ‘violent bully’. No, she doesn’t go around bashing people with pieces of wood, Her method of destruction is psychological.

          Yep. We need to accept that psychological bullying is still violence.

          Then, when they finally manage to muster up the strength to report the behaviour, they lie through their teeth and lay the blame at their targets’ feet.

          Bullies always blame their victims and there’s so many around to help them do so.

  5. Sacha 6

    Pushback against education system proposal throws up some interesting language: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12173227

    Schools might become less diverse, further reducing students’ choices

    • ianmac 6.1

      A not very helpful analysis there Sacha?

    • Gabby 6.2

      Auckland Grammar aren’t going to give up the purse strings without a hell of a fight.

      • Pete 6.2.1

        In one fell swoop some ex-pupil white knight a la the one at the top of the thread, Hart not James, will come in with a donation which would cover the $1250 per pupil they ask for.

        • Sacha 6.2.1.1

          Or they could wean themselves from subsidies and become the fully private school they want to be.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.3

      The hubs would manage the size of all their schools, putting limits on the numbers of out-of-zone students.

      The funding system would be changed to double the extra funds for more disadvantaged students from 3 per cent of total funding now to 6 per cent, and schools in richer areas would not be allowed to make up for this by asking parents for big “donations”.

      Ah, I see the whingers problem – they won’t be able to attract students from out of zone, charge high fees and thus restrict access to state schools to rich people only.

      Ironically the changes were welcomed by school trustees, whose powers would be emasculated. School Trustees Association president Lorraine Kerr said boards would be glad to hand over “compliance” tasks such as health and safety, employment and property maintenance.

      That’s probably a good idea. Most people who get elected to school boards probably don’t have a clue as to how to do those.

      The taskforce also proposes abolishing intermediate schools and encouraging either junior colleges (Years 7-10) and senior colleges (Years 11-13), or full primary schools (Years 1-8) and full secondaries above them.

      As I said the other day the amount that our young need to learn before they leave school has increased and we should be looking at extending school out to 20/21. Split into three: years 1 to 7, 8 to 13 and then the final two or three years. Can’t leave school until finishing junior college.

      • JohnSelway 6.3.1

        And teach civics as a compulsory subject and also life skills like how to budget, how taxes work, interest rates etc.

        Help people to understand their place and power in society and how to avoid falling into financial traps

        • Draco T Bastard 6.3.1.1

          And teach civics as a compulsory subject…

          I believe that civics is already a compulsory subject. The question is how much time is spent on it and if the subjects covered are the same across the country and if enough is actually covered.

          …how taxes work, interest rates etc.

          Now that’d be interesting especially if they combined it with how money is created by the private banks.

          As Ford says:

          It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.4

          People recognise immoral behaviour when they see it and our monetary system is immoral. It is designed to steal from the majority of people. In fact, the entire capitalist system is.

  6. SaveNZ 7

    Another bad sign of globalism when people seem to being arrested around the world based on political reasons.

    Pretty sure China is not a signatory to the sanctions ban on Iran (and not sure that that Iran should have a sanctions ban in the first place especially when Saudi does not have one!)

    Weird, Saudi goes around murdering people and that is ok. Most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi’s and that was ok. And Saudi are murdering people in Yemen and that is ok too by the US and the world.

    Time, NZ got out of this idea that trade and globalism is a winner for NZ, because it’s more a shit fight for power and control. Fairness and transparency are out of the window. NZ is much better to pursue an independent foreign policy from both US and China and develop our economy not solely based on trade agreements that actually make NZ worse off in terms of domestic problems and inability to trade freely (aka the opposite of free trade) by too much regulation in the agreements. For example being able to trade with Russia but for ‘soft power’ reasons do not do so.

    Also absolute joke that BT are removing Huawei tech for UK security reasons, the UK government signed to get China to build a nuclear power station for them! What could be more dangerous, someone in control of nuclear power in your country or someone who might be able to snoop on a few conversations?

    China demands release of Huawei executive arrested in Canada
    Meng Wanzhou, who faces extradition to US, said to have been investigated over alleged sanctions breaches

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/dec/05/meng-wanzhou-huawei-cfo-arrested-vancouver

    • Draco T Bastard 7.1

      What could be more dangerous, someone in control of nuclear power in your country or someone who might be able to snoop on a few conversations?

      The person who can snoop on all your conversations. Doing so gives knowledge and knowledge is power.

      • SaveNZ 7.1.1

        Well NZ is part of dangerous spying with 5 eyes. We already have mass surveillance here and not much said from our government… everyone is spying on everyone else… The spies don’t want other spies spying on them it seems to boil down to.

        We have a Natz MP who is probably a spy and China own vast amount of people and assets here in NZ, but not a care from our government, they just take the money (or give it away like water rights) but all of a sudden worried about Huawai? Its just doing the US bidding. NZ government would be happy to give up all sovereignty if they got a short term boast out of it and they keep the donations and Ponzi rolling in.

  7. reason 8

    Robert Fisk has spoken and written of the evil farce … where head chopping and sex slave taking terrorists in places like Mosul …. become sanitized as ‘rebels ‘… when they ply their blood letting and throat cutting in Syria.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-sex-slaves-lamiya-aji-bashar-nadia-murad-sinjar-yazidi-genocide-sexual-violence-rape-sakharov-a7445151.html

    Continuing the long trend of Britain / Usa involving themselves with populations suffering a poor deal …. and giving them something much much worse.

    His latest writing on the hypocrisy of western values / morals,…. speaks the truth to our diet of bullshit and murderous delusions … The sick sort Wayne Mapp endorses

    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/robert-fisk-jamal-khashoggi-trump-gina-haspel-cia-recordings-muslims-torture-yemen-a8670246.html

    “A generation ago, the CIA’s “Operation Phoenix” torture and assassination programme in Vietnam went way beyond the imaginations of the Saudi intelligence service. In spook language, Khashoggi was merely “terminated with maximum prejudice”. If the CIA could sign off on mass murder in Vietnam, why shouldn’t an Arab dictator do the same on a far smaller scale? True, I can’t imagine the Americans went in for bone saws. Testimony suggests that mass rape followed by mass torture did for their enemies in Vietnam.”

    “But still it goes on. Here’s Democrat senator Bob Menendez this week. The US, he told us, must “send a clear and unequivocal message that such actions are not acceptable on the world’s stage”. The “action”, of course, is the murder of Khashoggi. And this from a man who constantly defended Israel after its slaughter of the innocents in Gaza.”

    “Yet when at least one recent US presidential incumbent of that high office can be considered guilty of war crimes – in Iraq – and the deaths of tens of thousands of Arabs, how come American senators are huffing and puffing about just one man, Mohammed bin Salman, who (for a moment, let us set aside the Yemen war) is only being accused of ordering the murder and dismemberment of one single Arab?

    After all, world leaders – and US presidents themselves – have always had rather a soft spot for mass murderers and those who should face war crimes indictments. ” ………………

    ” The message has been clear and unequivocal for decades. The US “national interest” always trumps (in both senses) morality or international crime. ” ….

    “By the time Rumsfeld arrived for his meeting, more than 3,000 victims had fallen amid Iraqi gas clouds. The figure would reach at least 50,000 dead. Which is, in mathematical terms, Jamal Khashoggi times 50,000.”

    Its our ugly truth …. and Fisk is far from alone in telling it

    https://www.christianpost.com/news/isis-wives-jealous-of-sex-slaves-husbands-buy-virgins-for-10k-on-apps-rape-9-y-o-girls.html

  8. Marcus Morris 9

    The best news on the Education Front since the introduction of “Tomorrow’s Schools” has been the publication of Bali Haque’s review.

    Much as I admired David Lange he did nothing for students or teachers when he introduced the so called market model into education. At that time we had an education system that was admired throughout the world and certainly did not need changing. The advent of “TS” brought huge stress to many communities with little or no benefit. There is no doubt though that some principals, particularly in the primary sector, relished their new found power.

    Intermediate schools have always been of doubtful value, apart from providing promotional opportunities for Primary Principals. The notion of Form 1 – 4 or middle schools has been around for a long time, as have senior schools. They are to be encouraged.

    The immediate reaction from the Trustees association and the Principals Association has been very positive. The Nay Sayers are coming from the quarters to be expected and they are already indulging in extreme forms of derogatory terms e.g, “Stalinism”.

    Here is an opportunity to really put our education system “back on the rails” so let’s have a healthy and robust debate on the issue. As a now retired senior teacher who went through the “ordeal” of adjusting to “TS” I have plenty more I could say.

    • SaveNZ 9.1

      +1
      “Much as I admired David Lange he did nothing for students or teachers when he introduced the so called market model into education. At that time we had an education system that was admired throughout the world and certainly did not need changing.”

    • ianmac 9.2

      Hear Hear Marcus!

    • Morrissey 9.3

      Much as I admired David Lange…

      After that ritual statement, you then proceed, rightly, to remind us how destructive Lange was.

      What did you “admire” about him?

      • Marcus Morris 9.3.1

        David Lange was the much needed antidote to R.D.Muldoon. I think that there was a collective sigh of relief when, mainly thanks to David Lange’s wit and debating skills (plus a revulsion to Muldoon’s overbearing style) Labour won the 1984 election in a land slide (and repeated the effort in 1987). The country stood largely united (and still does) on NZ being declared a nuclear free zone (the sky didn’t fall in as so many of the of the devotees of US foreign policy predicted it would) and who could forget Lange’s performance at the Oxford debate. David Lange gave us “voice of our own” when it came to dealing with foreign powers and we appreciated it. Sadly for David, and the country as a whole, he became entrapped with the policies of Douglas, Prebble, Bassett and co who brought in Neoliberal economics under a socialist banner (treachery I call it) and David and Geoffrey Palmer (a great statesman in my humble opinion) woke up to too late. The rest is history.

        • Morrissey 9.3.1.1

          Geoffrey Palmer (a great statesman in my humble opinion)

          That opinion is more than “humble”, it’s FITH.

          Geoffrey Palmer is an international disgrace. His manipulation by the loathsome ex-president of Colombia, Alvaro Uribe, was perhaps the lowpoint of his career….

          https://www.democracynow.org/2011/9/2/as_turkey_freezes_israel_ties_critics

          • Marcus Morris 9.3.1.1.1

            Not sure what FITH means but I am sure it is not complimentary. You are entitled to your opinion of course, I will certainly stick with mine.

            • Morrissey 9.3.1.1.1.1

              As you clearly know nothing about Geoffrey Palmer’s disgrace, your opinion is worthless.

              • Marcus Morris

                That of course is also a matter of opinion Morrisey. I am well aware of the incident that you refer to and I was deeply disappointed and angry at the outcome of the commission. While we can agree on the result of that particular inquiry (and we may claim it as an error of judgement on Geoffrey Palmer’s part because, of course, we are are privy to all the information he had) it does not detract from all the work that Palmer did in his time as a leading Labour member of parliament and, most importantly, his championing of MMP. Cheers.

                • Morrissey

                  Palmer ceded all authority on that farcical “commission” to Alvaro Uribe, the brutally repressive, bloodstained “strong man” of Colombia and an avowed supporter of Israel’s crimes. Next to that cowardly behaviour, his championing of MMP is hollow.

    • Adrian 9.4

      Remember Tomorrows Schools came out of demands by many, most of whom never put themselves forward for board roles, for more parental control of scholl direction.
      Short bloody memories, the blight of the whingers.

      • Morrissey 9.4.1

        It came out of demands by a small group of fanatical right wingers who controlled the Labour Party. Far from consulting anyone with any expertise, Lange—or more accurately, Douglas, Moore and Bassett—installed a supermarket operator, one Brian Picot, to chair the farcical commission whose mission it was to dismantle our education system.

        We’re still suffering the consequences thirty years later.

      • millsy 9.4.2

        I’m pretty sure that parents had input into the running of schools before 1989. Education boards were democratically elected, and schools were run by school comittees and PTA’s. Schools simply had more central support and expertise to draw on.

        If anything TS lessened parental involvement. If you are having issues with your local school, there is no place to really turn to for help, and the school closures over the past 2 decades would not have happened if the education boards were still in charge.

        • Marcus Morris 9.4.2.1

          Tomorrows Schools had little impact on Secondary school governance. It was in the Primary area that the impact was greatest with respect to school management. But that was just one part of it. The effect on the secondary sector was immense with schools paying ridiculous amounts of money in promotional material for self promotion. This was felt particularly in the medium sized rural towns (Masterton, Levin for example) where two school competed for clientele from a fixed market. But it was also the loss of free and readily attainable professional advice that was to prove costly. Fair do’s: entrepreneurial professionals set themselves up as advisors and ” did very nicely thank you” dragging out money from operational grants that could have been better spent on other educational aids, books and computers to name just two.

    • greywarshark 9.5

      This from Marcus Morris should be noted – worth repeating.

      Much as I admired David Lange he did nothing for students or teachers when he introduced the so called market model into education. At that time we had an education system that was admired throughout the world and certainly did not need changing. The advent of “TS” brought huge stress to many communities with little or no benefit. There is no doubt though that some principals, particularly in the primary sector, relished their new found power.

      Another supposedly progressive Labour change of the 1980’s – done as a result of ideology, sales promotion and and addled opinion.

    • mary_a 9.6

      100% concur with your sentiments Marcus Morris (9) … well said.

    • Pete 9.7

      As an retired senior teacher how many parents did you speak to over the years whose children grew well through intermediate school who said “Intermediate schools have always been of doubtful value”?

      • Marcus Morris 9.7.1

        The answer is obvious – there was no alternative so they had no other point of reference. Middle schools have always made much more sense. As far as I am aware there has been little research to prove the efficacy of Intermediate schools – again, what was there to compare them with but you might be able to correct me on that point. As a student I attended both an Intermediate School and full primary school. I don’t think I lost anything in attending the latter for the last eighteen months of my primary education. We used to be bussed to “manual” and enjoyed the afternoon out. My first year teaching was in an Intermediate School before I moved into the secondary sector. For much of my career I worked in a Form One to Seven structure which worked well in rural areas. However, I feel that a three tiered system with years seven to ten being taught as a separate entity, would have huge advantages.

        • Pete 9.7.1.1

          I’m in a district where there are just about all the options. (No middle school) I’m sure most of the parents in the years our kids were at the intermediate they went to wouldn’t say/have said that intermediates were of doubtful value. I think many of them would be absolute advocates for that system.

          I was at some talk somewhere about the time where advantages/disadvantages between the systems were talked about. We have a very highly regarded high decile Yr1-8 school pretty close to us and had to make a decision. Whoever it was had some research about types of schooling. I think it was Ministry of Education stuff. I do remember a term being used – ‘slippage’ – to do with kids ‘going backwards’ with moving between schools and the affect of doing it twice in a short time for two intermediate years. I also remember the findings by and large being they were six of one, half a dozen of the other and other factors and possibilities came into it determining the good for kids.

          • Marcus Morris 9.7.1.1.1

            Pete, I am in no way denigrating the quality of the teaching that has taken place in Intermediate schools over many decades. Teachers in those schools are unquestionably as dedicated and committed as they are in any other sector. In its inception back in the thirties (the brainchild of Dr Beeby I think) it was designed to bridge the gap between primary and secondary styles of learning (I assume). In other words to help children to adjust from a single teacher classroom to a situation where they would face multiple teaching styles (was there another reason). It is pertinent to remember that in those far off days the vast majority of students left school at fifteen and went into apprenticeships. This was still the case in the time of my own school days in the fifties when two years secondary education was all that was needed to get into most types of tertiary training. My point is that the division has always seemed contrived. Puberty doesn’t begin at age eleven and end two years later. And I have never understood the social advantages. Children leave primary school as “seniors” at the end of year six, have two years to adjust and gain seniority at intermediate and then go through the trauma of readjustment again in year nine.

            Finally, if intermediate schools were deemed such a good idea (and they have been around for eighty plus years) why have they not been more widely introduced overseas.

            PS I have a suspicion that your children were educated in the same suburb as my grandchildren. Their parents opted for the “full” primary school and have never regretted it.

    • DJ Ward 9.8

      The worst thing they did was fiddle with our style of assessment. Or should I say experimented with. I was part of the group given grades from 1 to 9. I was in a top school and each school was allocated grades. I came 3rd in the school in computer studies and got a grade 4. Nobody could get a 1.

      The year before we did School Certificate under the old system. At least that system was fair, and encouraged students to try. I do feel fiddling with structures of schools will do little to address the real issues. In particular the present system is working well for girls but it’s failing to engage boys in the same way. Having 2 females vs 1 male in tertiary education will have long term social consequences.

      The primary and secondary system is responsible for the resultant.

      The education gap.

      • Molly 9.8.1

        ” In particular the present system is working well for girls but it’s failing to engage boys in the same way. Having 2 females vs 1 male in tertiary education will have long term social consequences.”
        Link to studies about this aspect.

        The education system has not been delivering for all students – whether male or female in terms of preparing them for full engagement with work or community.

        Achievement levels in a flawed system aren’t the indicators we should focus on. Our education system should deliver New Zealanders that are able to engage, work and play in a meaningful manner.

        IIRC, The old School Cert system automatically scaled to fail half the students despite achievement. That is also less than ideal, and not a system we should return to.

        • DJ Ward 9.8.1.1

          https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/__data/assets/excel_doc/0003/174162/2016-rounded-maori-summary.xlsx

          So it was 2:1 in this group but has improved to 3 1/3:2

          It’s an issue needing to be addressed. I know some people are trying but it’s still a big gap.

          Sorry Molly can’t do more, taking kids swimming.

          • Molly 9.8.1.1.1

            You don’t link to stats that match your comments, so work on that. Someone I know has been involved in work with the MoE and NZQA to raise Māori achievement levels – which is an entirely different topic to the one you introduced, so I’m expecting a bit more than rushed stats leading to inaccurate conclusions.

            Enjoy the day with your kids, it’s nice to have swimming weather on the weekend.

            • DJ Ward 9.8.1.1.1.1

              https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/182296/2016-pt-provider-based-enrolments-part1b.pdf

              Summary. Males:females
              Lvl 1&2. 1:1.27
              Lvl 3. 1:1.56
              Lvl 4 to 7 1:1.15
              Bachelor & higher. 1:1.45
              Ace. 1:2.53

              Lvl 4 is lower due to aprenterships.

              So I’m wrong in saying 1:2. Sorry Molly.

              1:2 exists for Graduate diplomas.
              1:2.67 for adult honours.

              I am correct in saying we have an education gap.

              That’s larger than the claimed pay gap, that we endlessly hear about from the Ministry for women.

              One of the “best interests of the child things” but on the doesn’t count list because it’s males.

              The Minister for Men remains silent.

              • Molly

                The report you linked to – different from the first – does show a higher percentage of female enrolments, which apparently has been the case since 2006. The report says that the average percentage of females enrolled is 59%.

                There are no conclusions in this report, as the data they have collated for gender has not been matched with other criteria to indicate why this is the case.

                As you mentioned the male percentage in apprenticeships is likely to be higher.
                In typical female occupations such as carer, ECE, and nursing a qualification is often gained – and sometimes legally required.

                Further on in the report it says there has been an increase in NZQF enrolments which are industry and trade based qualifications, while the university enrolments have stayed quite static.

                Looking at the statistics only, you have no context or valuable data that gives insight into why enrolments or attendance is the way it is.

                “I am correct in saying we have an education gap.

                That’s larger than the claimed pay gap, that we endlessly hear about from the Ministry for women.”

                Your focus on ‘male’ achievement is a very narrow one.

                We already know there are greater gaps for Māori and Pasifika students

                There will be substantial gaps for:
                – Students from low-socio economic groups
                – Students from families with low disposable income not entitled to support,

                All of these groups need specific targeting and assistance in improve education outcomes, as long as the education provided is of high quality and suitable for purpose.

                “One of the “best interests of the child things” but on the doesn’t count list because it’s males.

                The Minister for Men remains silent.”

                You seem capable of reasoned discussion, so I don’t know why you are taking a single data point and quite willfully reading malice into it. There is not enough data there to give a reason why the ratio is skewed.

                eg. There seemed to be considerably more females in the age 24-60 yr group, but that might be reflective of the population as a whole as females outnumber males in the population after the age of 30 IIRC.
                But as I said, you would need better data before drawing that conclusion.

                You are also conflating issues here.

                We are speaking about education, ‘the best interests of the child’ – which I agree with – relates to the custody conversation we had.

                • Molly

                  Just thinking the change from male majority to female majority might in part be due to the requirement for Early Childhood Centres to have qualified staff that happened in the early 2000’s. Add to that the fact that only 2.6% of ECE staff are male and you have a large female contingent in a growing industry that require qualifications to remain working.

                  But as I mentioned, there is not enough data in the linked report to give the information needed to make judgements, only loosely based theories that need further research.

      • Marcus Morris 9.8.2

        I don’t think that TS had anything to do with the changing of assessment procedure. That was just coincidental. The old School Certificate was not good. It was designed to fail 50% of the population with the result that many people were, literally, scarred for life with a sense of failure at school. It was an indictment on the system. SFC was also a flawed scheme where schools were locked into an award process which was tied intrinsically with grades gained by a particular cohort of students at SC level in their previous years study.

        The final five years of my teaching service saw the introduction of NCEA and, in its initial form, I saw great merit. However as more an and more assessment is being placed back on the schools and their teachers (as was the case with SFC) my enthusiasm has wained more then somewhat.

        • DJ Ward 9.8.2.1

          We live in a world were you pass or fail.
          If you don’t pass your drivers test, you don’t get it.
          If you don’t pass your firearms test, you don’t get it.
          If you don’t pass your university test, you don’t get it.

          I don’t have a problem with competency testing.
          I don’t have a problem with completed the task, award.

          I do have a problem with teachers time inside school and out of school, waisting time with endless assessing with the present system.

          I want teachers teaching as near to 100% of the time when they are with the kids. I want teachers to live happy lives, not burdened with what at the end of the day is pointless assessing.

          I would rather we went back to tests without reporting % but just giving A, B, C, D with a much smaller project contribution for some subjects like Art.

          D resulting in do it again.

          • solkta 9.8.2.1.1

            School C, as Marcus mentions, was scaled to a normal distribution curve to ensure that 50% of people failed. That is not a pass and you don’t get it but rather a pass and we will fail you anyway.

            • DJ Ward 9.8.2.1.1.1

              We can learn from our mistakes and create a better way of doing it.

              As we introduced NCEA we began dropping in international standing. I believe this is due to the burden on teachers. A happy teacher is a good teacher. A overworked and stressed teacher is not a happy teacher.

          • Marcus Morris 9.8.2.1.2

            I largely concur with what you say however the point about SC under the old system was that it was norm referenced and lead to very artificial and grossly unfair results. NCEA is, or was, standards based – just like the drivers licence. You reached the standard – you passed and if you passed well you this was acknowledged with a Merit or Excellence award.

  9. SaveNZ 10

    Is this the only intelligent thing Nash has ever said?

    “We gave you a chance … My view on this has always been the same. Let him go home. Let him go to some other country. I don’t want these sorts of people in New Zealand … Good riddance, never come back.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12171765

    While they are about it, time that the whole marriage situation with immigration was tightened up. If should take 20 years to get full citizenship and welfare in NZ to stop people purchasing it for the wrong reasons, (or that reason gone by lunch time aka like many people’s relationships and marriages) and if you go to jail and get a conviction you are automatically deported.

    Look at Sroubek’s case, his wife supported him, now shortly later seems to be in hiding in a police safe house because she is afraid of him??? My how the situation seems changed in a short period of time. You can’t change people’s emotions, but our immigration policy should not be at the mercy of people’s short term relationships or fake labour and fake businesses and all these new import businesses that are caught importing in drugs, should be instant deportation.

    Having a much longer time frame for citizenship would do a lot of clean up NZ, where 1 in 4 people are now living here from overseas and the news head lines seem full of them operating outside NZ laws, thus changing our country into some drugs fuelled, illegal working hell hole where scams are everywhere, which is out of kilter with our safe, clean, green image with high educational and moral standards and low corruption levels from 30 years ago. Stupidity and short term greed is making NZ a much worse place for more people.

    • Some questions about Mrs Sroubek come to mind. Was her immigration status reliant on her husbands flawed residency and if he was a criminal, was she living on the proceeds of crime and should also be deported.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.2

      Having a much longer time frame for citizenship would do a lot of clean up NZ

      I think getting rid of Permanent Residence would do more while ensuring control of NZ by NZers by allowing only citizens to vote.

      • JohnSelway 10.2.1

        Well, I want to agree that only citizens should vote but I still feel if you are living and working in a country and paying tax you should have a say how those tax dollars are spent

        • James Thrace 10.2.1.1

          Citizens only should vote in central government elections.

          Residents can vote in local body elections.

        • Draco T Bastard 10.2.1.2

          If a person is living and working in a country then they should be a citizen.
          If they’re not a citizen then they shouldn’t be living and working in that country.

          • JohnSelway 10.2.1.2.1

            So you’re pretty much cancelling everyone’s OE then. Oh and everyone is Australia will have to come home

            • Draco T Bastard 10.2.1.2.1.1

              So you’re pretty much cancelling everyone’s OE then.

              Short term work visas. They’re visiting rather than living.

              Oh and everyone is Australia will have to come home

              Or they could, you know, get citizenship.

              I actually get pissed off with people going on about NZers living in Oz being treated as 2nd class citizens. They’re not citizens.

        • Molly 10.2.1.3

          Not necessarily. You may be working in a country just for your personal benefit, and contribute nothing to that society other than your consumption and tax.

          Societies and countries remain healthier when they are valued. If someone decides that New Zealand is the country where they want to contribute more than the bare minimum, and make a commitment to that decision by becoming a citizen – only then should they have the right to vote.

        • SaveNZ 10.2.1.4

          Not 100% sure but I think NZ citizens can work in OZ, but get little welfare there these days. Although I think part of that is how NZ is the world’s third largest immigration by capita group, and the new citizens are using the NZ passport to enter other counties thus making other countries tighten up against NZ citizens which again is making things worse for NZ citizens born here or long term migrants who came here before the Ponzi.

          Voting should be a privilege and a right for the people born in that country. If you are not born and living in NZ, then it should take 20 years to vote and be a NZ citizen. Now we have people who come here, fake job or just here for 11 days and can vote and change our government. It is not acceptable or fair to long term citizens to be able to buy your way into NZ and getting very fast voting rights.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.1

      A person like that should not be allowed to even be in an administrative position. We don’t let people with convictions that could result in two years of jail into parliament.

    • greywarshark 12.2

      It would seem he is very suitable from a NZ Immigration perspective.

  10. Morrissey 13

    An “expert” who calls the 19th century “the eighteen hundreds.”
    Jim Mora’s inane chat show just gets worse every episode.

    The Panel, RNZ National, Friday 7 December 2018
    Jim Mora, Alan McIlroy, Tim Watkin, Caitlin Cherry

    Announcing the menu for today’s learned discussions, the determinedly chirpy Caitlin Cherry makes out as if she is something other than an inane and frivolous commentator:

    JIM MORA: Caitlin Cherry, good afternoooon.

    CAITLIN CHERRY: Good afternoon. Speaking of extremely lucrative, um, things to dooooo, uh, I’m going to talk about YouTube stars. And, to be honest, I feel like just packing it all IN, and doing some INANE thing and commenting on it, and becoming a YouTube star and making MILLIONS.

    MORA: And you COULD, Caitlin!

    CAITLIN CHERRY: Yeeeees, I’m sort of not QUITE in the right age bracket….

    A minute later, we are treated to a typically high-flown piece of rhetoric from the show that Caitlin Cherry, that enemy of inanity, produces:

    JIM MORA: Someone was complaining about the way we say “entrepreneur”, rhymes with manure, rather than entrepreneur, rhymes with fleur….

    A little later, the first query in the (almost always) twee and insubstantial One Quick Question segment was: “What is the meaning of watershed?” It was answered by something called “Ken Grace from the Department of Writing”. I tuned him out as soon as he used the phrase “the eighteen hundreds.” He meant, of course, the nineteenth century, but he was either dumbing it down for the RNZ audience, or was too dumb to understand it himself. Either way, it’s unacceptable.

    BTW: where the hell is the Department of Writing? Is it in the infamous John Davies’ non-existent Denver State University, perhaps?

    • When did the 19th century start, Moz?

      • Morrissey 13.1.1

        The 19th century started on Wednesday, January 1, 1800. The eighteen hundreds finished on Sunday, December 31, 1809. Of course you know that, my good friend, and so does anyone with a measurable I.Q.

        But not, apparently, the “expert” consulted by that ridiculous chat show.

        • Antoine 13.1.1.1

          > Of course you know that, my good friend, and so does anyone with a measurable I.Q.

          I pity anyone who has to put up with you offline

          A.

          • Morrissey 13.1.1.1.1

            Your facility with the one-liner really has to be admired.

            Your compassion for my friends and family has been noted.

        • te reo putake 13.1.1.2

          Er, shome mishtake, shurely?

          The 19th Century actually started on January 1st, 1801. The eighteen hundreds began a year earlier. This confusion, which you are party to, is why we celebrated the recent millennium a year early. And also because Prince realised that ‘party like it’s two thousand’ doesn’t scan as well.

          PS, did you really mean to say the 1800’s finished in 1809? I think we should be told!

        • Gabby 13.1.1.3

          No, it started on 1 January 1801, as eny fule kno morrie.

          • Morrissey 13.1.1.3.1

            Correct, Gabby. I’m a fool, and a damned fool at that. And don’t you forget it!

  11. Ed 14

    Interesting article in the Herald today on how Uber Eats is damaging small food outlets.
    Think before you use the Uber model.
    It is destroying small businesses, by the sound of it.
    The money you spend goes to billionaires in California, as opposed to workers in New Zealand.
    And Uber doesn’t pay its share of tax.
    If use catch an Uber taxi or order Uber Eats, never grumble about an underresourced health system.
    Your consumer choice contributed to that happening.
    Be a citizen- not a consumer.

    Here is an excerpt from the article.

    “One Auckland business owner who runs an Indian takeaway says Uber Eats’ commission fees are too high – particularly for small and medium-sized businesses.
    “If a business is selling $100 worth of food, about $41 [after GST] is going to go to Uber Eats,” says the business owner, who wants to remain anonymous.
    He says it would work out cheaper to hire a person to deliver the food itself, but the popularity of Uber Eats means that being on the platform is essentially a way of marketing the business, and “that’s where the customers are”.
    Uber Eats policy says businesses must not increase their prices on the platform and they should be the same as those offered in-store. However, the takeaway owner says that is not feasible and many users do increase their prices on the app to accommodate the high commission fees.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12146643

    • Draco T Bastard 14.1

      The Uber model of exploitation needs to be banned.

      • Ed 14.1.1

        Totally agree Draco.
        If a corporation won’t make its fair contribution to society, it should be boycotted and banned.
        The secondary rugby schools of Auckland, the Extinction rebellion activists and the yellow vest demonstrators show us the way.

        • greywarshark 14.1.1.1

          The Uber model insinuates itself through the needs of people to earn who have become unemployed through the machinations of the free market under-cutting businesses, jobs, wages and the local market in which they operated.

          So first the free market destabilises a relatively stable market, causing collapse of small business, jobs and income, then the people affected have to find a way to earn an insecure incoe., Then theyhave that destabilised by the free market operators finding ways to exploit other insecure people to compete and undercut their jobs and income. So insecure people eternally fight for reducing earnings while uber, go their unscrupulous way taking a management cut – the ultimate fight for life.

          • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1.1.1

            Bingo!

            The entire system is designed to ensure that wealth flows up to the already rich.

            • Ankerrawshark 14.1.1.1.1.1

              But, but maybe Draco they will donate money to our universities or health care

        • solkta 14.1.1.2

          Aren’t the yellow vest protestors protesting about a carbon tax on petrol?

          • Sabine 14.1.1.2.1

            No, they are protesting about a tax on petrol. I think they call it the Macron is a wanker tax.

      • Alan 14.1.2

        Uber is awesome, very efficient use of resources by willing participants, but you draco of course cannot see that

        • Molly 14.1.2.1

          Uber is also exploitative of human resources, requiring drivers to compensate for the failings of their business model to consider the well-being of the main resource that they benefit from.

        • te reo putake 14.1.2.2

          Yeah, the poor sod that turned up at my place last night was a very willing participant. Ragged clothes, soul flapping off his shoes, broken English and nearly in tears because he’d been given the wrong address.

        • Draco T Bastard 14.1.2.3

          The people driving are being exploited through their need to work to live. The people who own Uber are getting income from the work of others while doing little to nothing themselves.

          That is exploitation.

          • Alan 14.1.2.3.1

            um, envisaging and setting up a business model which is willingly utilised by millions of people every day is working draco.

          • Graeme 14.1.2.3.2

            The bit I don’t get with the Uber model is why the taxi co-ops haven’t come up with a similar app based system, or a developer seen the opportunity to create one.

            We had savy down here as a trial but it didn’t work out. https://www.savy.co.nz

            • Muttonbird 14.1.2.3.2.1

              This. Pretty easy to kill off Uber I would have thought.

              • James

                Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

                Sometimes you are really funny.

                Muttonbird the genius thinks it’s pretty easy to kill off Uber.

              • JohnSelway

                As long as there is demand it’ll stay.

                Every Uber driver I’ve spoken to has enjoyed working for uber

                • James

                  No John – that can’t be right. People here know better. They are all miserable.

                  I love Uber. Use it exclusively when travelling and often use Uber eats in different cities when away for work.

                  Excellent service – but I’m sure muttonbird will hav the, out of business in a week. Coz they all smart like.

                • joe90

                  As long as their investors can weather the losses.

                  To date, close to $12 Billion and counting.

            • Sacha 14.1.2.3.2.2

              Zoomy is an NZ-developed alternative, but I do not know how their uptake is going.

              • Molly

                Zoomy offers better overall rates and conditions for drivers, but drivers will often not pick up fares during peak times because Uber then offers a premium. So customers have to pay more, and don’t get to choose between services.

                The short-term chase for higher individual earnings means that the better terms and conditions offered by Zoomy are not prioritised by drivers.

                They also offer a better service for customers, no peak rates, and a training system for all drivers:

                You must be at least 18 years of age, and hold a P endorsement on your drivers license. You’ll also need to own an iPhone or Android phone.

                All Zoomy drivers are required to go through our approval process, which includes an NZTA Driver Check, having a CoF on your vehicle and hold a Passenger Licence.

                Along with being in good condition, your car needs to be a 2008 model or younger, have four external door handles and at least five seatbelts.

                Finally, you’ll need to complete a driver training course with our driver team.

  12. Ed 15

    Thought my ban had ended.
    Posted something about Uber Eats and it didn’t appear?

  13. Ed 16

    This article on the Stuff website poses a good question.
    The French are protesting will we?
    It seeks the opinions of Max Rashbrooke and John Minto.

    Excerpts from the article.

    “An estimated 100,000 people have taken to the streets in France over the last month to protest the rising price of fuel and the cost of living in general.
    However, according to statistics collected by the OECD in 2017 the French have it a lot better than New Zealanders, with a greater disposable income and lower levels of inequality.
    So where are the New Zealand protests?
    Inequality researcher Max Rashbrooke said at the heart of New Zealander’s inaction was a general complacency from those who are doing OK.”

    My take.

    Of course we did have protests back in the 1980s as workers around the country saw their rights and work conditions removed. Then draconian laws in the early 90s removed that right.

    France never adopted the neoliberal poison to the same degree and no politician ( until Macron) has dared to apply the economic shock doctrine New Zealand politicians applied from 1984 to 1993.

    And why did the protests not succeed in the 1980s? Well, it was theoretically a ‘Labour’ government that forced through the radical anti-worker laws. The Labour movement was stunned, shocked and fractured. It failed to resist as a united front.

    In 2018 there are laws that make such united action very hard.

    Nevertheless if the midwives, the teachers, the engineers, the junior doctors, the firefighters, the nurses, the bus drivers, the train drivers , the supermarket workers, the fast food workers all stopped work on the same day.
    And repeated that action every week – united- indefinitely until neoliberal capitalism was abandoned,.. then we’d see a change.

    Sadly many New Zealanders have been propagandised into being obedient consumers. A cheap UBER taxi, a cheap UBER eat, a cheap Macdonalds, a cheap piece of plastic from the Warehouse or another big box consumer hellhole trumps workers’ rights and conditions.

    New Zealanders have been atomised. Their sense of community has been undermined and many no longer see society as any bigger than the nuclear family. Digital devices have taken this to another level as the atomisation now reduces us to the individual level.

    And few notice and few care. The dumbing down of the population means there’s more uproar over Coca Cola’s Santa than our burning planet and unequal country.

    Approximately 30% of the population vote for the National Party. They are the complacent sector who have forgotten empathy. Their attitudes will only change when the crisis hits them personally.

    They should remember John Donne’s famous quote.

    “No man is an island entire of itself; every man
    is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
    if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
    is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
    well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
    own were; any man’s death diminishes me,
    because I am involved in mankind.
    And therefore never send to know for whom
    the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. ”

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/108851984/the-french-are-rioting-but-they-have-it-better-than-kiwis

    • Poission 16.1

      When the bell tolls it tolls for three.

      The french do have more passion.

      https://youtu.be/rVuKLxx-ETY?list=RDrVuKLxx-ETY

      • greywarshark 16.1.1

        Everything is wanted cheaper in NZ, because that shows more efficiency. That is the mantra from the well-off to the not, who have been propagandised with that message.

        And the further message is that all the people having well-being is not something that NZ can afford. Prices of labour have to fall to the lowest base line for instance, so that others can take advantage of the ones at the bottom to keep costs of needed services low, and then profitable business can be built on that advantage.

        Change that mindset to care about each other again, to want others to have a good basic life style and opportunities to better it! But that is so old-fashioned.
        Apparently Maggie Barry uses having a trace of 1970’s thinking as a reason for disdain. People who do not remember or understand the past, which was of an attempted moral society, can’t change. NZs learned to go for cheap, and they got nasty.

        NZ is not an admirable society now; anything good about it is either glossy on the surface stuff, or shows up only in spots, or thinly stretched and stressed.

  14. mary_a 17

    100% concur with your sentiments Marcus Morris (9) … well said.

  15. greywarshark 18

    News from Wellington – they are going to build a new concert hall. I wondered where it would be sited. Then I thought of all the expenditure on the site for the memorial of WW1. That has been marked. Perhaps they can move on now, and turn that memorial into a living one housing the creative doings of those who have lived on. The concert hall would be named the Memorial Hall for WW1 and WW2, both having been important sacrifices by NZs. Do something both thoughtful and practical please you big-noting politicians.

    http://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=114526
    And the comments are interesting and informed.
    One refers to to pointyheads being stuck on large buildings on the shore line masking the view. Perhaps it is shades of The Opera House in Sydney which was a giant step up for them, (they are now monetising this by shining advertisements onto it).

  16. joe90 19

    Oh well, back to the drawing board….

    I think we can forget about the Norway Option: Lunde compares Britain to an abusive partner who spikes your drinks. https://t.co/vrqtcMoJmZ— Billy Bragg (@billybragg) December 8, 2018

    "I think you would mess it all up for us, the way you have messed it all up for yourselves."Heidi Nordby Lunde, president of Norway's European Movement, is sceptical about calls for the UK to strike a Norway-style deal with the EU. pic.twitter.com/uEpiO3yXPp— Channel 4 News (@Channel4News) December 7, 2018

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1071078003780870146

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/04/norway-option-is-worst-of-all-brexit-outcomes-for-uk-say-eu-sources-rules

  17. joe90 20

    Congratulations to Abbey Ercerg, the world’s 60th ranked women’s footballer.

    https://offsiderulepodcast.com/60-abby-erceg/

  18. joe90 21

    garden variety consent dyslexics

  19. hoom 23

    Surprised this hasn’t been mentioned: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12173192
    Nats planning policy to ACC-ise the rest of the Social Welfare system.

    …given they twice attempted to privatise ACC they would presumably be also planning to privatise the whole thing in 2nd term.

    • greywarshark 23.1

      Photo Mark Mitchell? The members are looking disgruntled.

    • Ed 23.2

      More leaks, I see.
      And it’s not JLR….

    • joe90 23.3

      I have a post traumatic health issue, the result of an injury suffered decades ago, which has resulted in a serious disability requiring a surgical fix. I’m able to oblige myself of the treatment and support offered by ACC, timely consultations and private hospital surgery, post-surgery appliances, home help and income support.

      For no known reason, the same issue spontaneously afflicts post-menopausal women, seriously disabling them, and requires the same surgical fix. But unless they have health insurance, they’re treated by the public system. Long waits for surgical consultations, long surgery waiting lists, bureaucratic difficulties in obtaining post-surgery home help and appliances, and a pittance in income support.

      If National’s plan to extend ACC to victims of illness as well as accidents put an end to the two tier health system these women are forced to endure, then all power to them.

      • hoom 23.3.1

        Yes it sounds kinda good on the surface.

        But this is the Nats you’re talking about, they think the US Health Market is the ideal model to follow & they have a history of trying to Privatise ACC.

        So you have to understand that what at first sounds good is likely to be actually intended to destroy &/or Privatise the last vestiges of Social Welfare in the longer term.

  20. Cinny 24

    Agent Orange has nominated a Fox newsreader to represent USA at the UN.

    It’s so perfectly bizarre.

    Bibi will be beyond thrilled.

  21. eco maori 25

    Kia ora R & R the problems with our housing is some people turned it into WEALTH making enterprises banks pollie realestate ect.
    Communal living is good the old look after the mokopunas and the younger work that model worked for thousands of years the capitalist don’t like this model because it is to hard to sell there snake oil /lies to us when you have communal living the old wise give good advice to the youth .
    I liked Nania’s idea of sweat equity the buyers work in building the house and are given equity in the house for there labour Ka kite ano. rents are sky rocketing at the minute and the banks love safe as houses hence big profts

  22. eco maori 26

    We can not keep burning our environment and our grandchildren’s future for greedy oil barons
    Adani: thousands protest across Australia against Carmichael mine
    Thousands of protestors campaigning against Indian mining giant Adani’s controversial Queensland coalmine have taken to the streets in major cities across Australia to call on the government to stop it going ahead.

    Protesters marched in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane and Cairns on Saturday, just a week after 15,000 school students demonstrated against government inaction on climate change.

    It follows the announcement last month by Adani it would self-finance the controversial project after scaling back its size and scope.
    Climate change strike: thousands of school students protest across Australia
    Read more

    The coal project is being downsized from a 60-million-tonnes a year, $16.5 billion mega-mine to a more manageable 10-to-15 million tonnes a year costing around $2 billion.

    In Brisbane, hundreds of protestors gathered outside Adani’s headquarters to voice their opposition to the project.

    “No longer will we sit back and be lectured to by people who are outdated and out of touch,” Thomas Cullen told the crowd.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/08/adani-thousands-protest-across-australia-against-carmichael-mine

  23. eco maori 27

    Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  24. eco maori 28

    Kai ora Marae yes the justices system has served up us maori a big heap of ————–.
    Pakeha means bad breath when the Europeens arrived here the had scurby hence pakeha.
    The neo liberals who have big boxes of tissues like to use tack tics to stir up people emotions and try and drag the great tau toko and mana that is being given to te tangata whenua culture at the minute they are scared fool’s black faces and Maori santa I stayed away from the black faces debate so as not to given any publicity no publicity it fades away into our past.
    PEE is a very bad drug and must be stamped out in Aotearoa its has infected all our maori community’s being pushed by———— I have already put out there who is pushing this ——— Miriama.
    I see crime is falling and the prison population has fallen by 800 / 8 % ka pai ka kite ano.
    P.S do you see all the efford the sandflys are putting into suppressing Eco Maori’s influence I know some do know about this

  25. eco maori 29

    Kia ora Newshub Condolences to Grace Millane family .
    Lloyd there you go someone will use anything to float there toilet even a sad tragic thing that is happening in Paris the alt right are to extreme.
    I thought of a way to get people to have pride in there neighborhood have the best garden competitions with good prizes was one Idea for housing corp houses .
    That’s a good thing putting cash on vehicles and other places for people to find at that camping grounds this close to Chrismas ka pai
    The 7s Rugby looked exciting Niki & Andrew
    Ka kite ano P.S some people still think they can see me through the camera lens

  26. eco maori 30

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  27. eco maori 31

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

  28. eco maori 32

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

Leave a Comment

Show Tags

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Andrew Little – Speech to Amnesty International event to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Univ...
    ANDREW LITTLE - SPEECH TO AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL EVENT TO MARK THE 70TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS ON WORLD HUMAN RIGHTS DAY, PARLIAMENT, WELLINGTON ...
    20 hours ago
  • Tax reforms focus on fairness
    New tax legislation has been introduced to Parliament to ensure greater fairness in the way the tax system shapes commerce, investment decisions and social policies. Revenue Minister Stuart Nash has introduced the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2019-20, GST Offshore Supplier ...
    6 days ago
  • Preventing death and injury on our roads
    Police Minister Stuart Nash and Associate Minister of Transport Julie Anne Genter are encouraging road users to be alert to a new safety campaign launched today by Police and the NZ Transport Agency in the lead up to the Christmas. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • New comms centre improves public services
    A new digital services and communications centre opened on the Kapiti Coast will help transform the way Police connect with the public and work to make communities safe. Police Minister Stuart Nash has officially opened the Police Digital Services Centre, ...
    2 weeks ago