Open mike 08/03/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 8th, 2016 - 85 comments
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85 comments on “Open mike 08/03/2016”

  1. vto 1

    We need a new government to slag – this one is getting boring

    • Rosie 1.1

      April could be interesting vto.

      We have prominent NZer’s court case coming up at long last (justice delayed for so long to that person’s victims)

      Bradley Ambrose is suing Key for defamation, as long as he can get the $$$ to cover the court costs.

      And by April the sports logo flag will be trampled in the mud in celebratory fashion, along with Key’s ego.

      It could be a pretty shitty autumn for them.

      Oh, and hows that plagiarism case coming along? You know, the one where the National Party managed to rip off the Eminem tune for their election campaign music in 2014?

      Good gains were made in February in regard to public backlash over the Nat govt, with Key copping most of it. Hopefully we can do round two next month.

      • Rosie 1.1.1

        PS Don’t forget the Clutha Southland kid’s developing problems. A Dirty Politics cub?

        In the past, problems with Nat MP’s going a bit astray managed to last a few news cycles and then get forgotten about due to the apparent popularity of Key, not necessarily of the govt, but of Key. But things have changed now. He’s a little less popular. A new side show might do more damage then it once did. That might lessen the boredom.

        The love is fading, as the Smiths could tell you. It’s not what it used to be eh?

        “Nothing’s changed
        I still love you, oh, I still love you
        Only slightly, only slightly less
        Than I used to, my love”

        • vto 1.1.1.1

          Heh, good one. You are right that things might liven up a bit as the people steadily find the voice and power to stand up to these bozos – witness clown action in the TPP meeting yesterday.

          …. looking forward to the custard pie for Finlayson QC….

  2. Penny Bright 2

    8 March 2016

    FYI – not all questions were ignored by media at yesterday’s TPPA ‘Rogue Show’.

    http://thespinoff.co.nz/08-03-2016/tea-pee-and-pecuniary-gains-amid-the-clowns-at-the-trade-deal-roadshow/

    Tea, pee and pecuniary gains: Amid the clowns at the trade deal roadshow

    8 MARCH 2016
    By Tim Murphy

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1603/S00243/walker-five-other-countries-interested-in-joining-tpp-deal.htm

    At today’s roadshow Auckland mayoral hopeful Penny Bright questioned how TPP could be in New Zealand’s best interests given it doesn’t include our second biggest trading partner, China, and Obama had been quoted as saying “if we don’t write the rules, then China will write the rules in the region”.

    • …Penny Bright questioned how TPP could be in New Zealand’s best interests given it doesn’t include our second biggest trading partner, China…

      Seeing as we already have a satisfactory free trade deal with China, how would including it in the crappy TPPA be in our interests? Still, I guess it makes as much sense as Penny ever does.

      • The Chairman 2.1.1

        Some find it far from satisfactory.

        The Government is being accused of going easy on Chinese authorities when making trade deals for the infant formula industry.

        Dozens of Kiwi brands made by small businesses going down the drain.

        There were 200 brands – and now there are just 20.

        Michael Barnett of the Infant Formula Exporters Association said “MPI have allowed them to control that process, so we’ve ended up with a small group of privileged exporters.”

        He says many of those exporters are Chinese-owned companies based in New Zealand.

        https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/business/infant-formula-agency-accused-government-going-easy-china?autoPlay=4785655384001

        • Expat 2.1.1.1

          Yeah, and the Australian company producing baby formula just saw it’s share price double as in can’t keep up with demand after doubling it’s production this year from 5M units, to 10M units.

      • Penny Bright 2.1.2

        The TPPA is NOT a ‘Free Trade Agreement’.

        It is an anti-China economic and political ‘pivot’ pushed by USA President Barack Obama.

        (Obama has been quoted as saying “if we don’t write the rules, then China will write the rules in the region”.)

        It just so happens that China is NZ’s 2nd largest trading partner.

        So – how is the TPPA in NZ’s best interests?

        Just asking …..

        Also – how is the TPPA going to remove subsidies from USA, Japanese and Canadian beef and dairy farmers?

        This is on top of tariffs under the TPPA never going to be completely eliminated for NZ dairy and meat exports – both key NZ exports?

        So – how is the TPPA In NZ’s best interests?

        Penny Bright
        2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate.
        (Who is the only Auckland Mayoral candidate who is actively opposed to the TPPA).

    • DoublePlusGood 2.2

      You know countries can have more than one trade deal at a time, right?
      There’s plenty of better things to criticise about the TPPA than “it doesn’t include China”

  3. chris73 3

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11599571

    Red and dead

    After years as an internet wasteland, the Labour Party’s “Red Alert” blog site looks to have been quietly put out of its misery. Once lauded as the new way for MPs to interact with the public, it soon became a bit of an embarrassment, before being ignored. Now, it appears to be no more.

    Thats a shame, it was always quite amusing to go there but they did have some very strict moderation going on…but this was my favorite post:

    chris73 says:
    July 31, 2010 at 12:00 pm

    A vote for Phil Goff is a vote for a prosperous NZ

    One month ban for lying. Trevor

    • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1

      So you were a troll there too. Such lofty ambitions.

      • chris73 3.1.1

        I’d suggest that holding the same position for over 6 years now (and counting) suggests a strongly held belief as opposed to trolling

        • indiana 3.1.1.1

          The only way to win an argument these days is to call the other person a troll. As soon as you say it you can walk away from your keyboard feeling fully satisfied.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.2

      What was deleted?

  4. Smilin 4

    TPPA
    The Process Of obtaining Pecuniary Advantage over a nation’s sovereignty by multinational corporations

  5. pat 5

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/298354/fonterra-accused-of-unfair-demands

    a clear narrative on the looming impact on provincial NZ, remembering that most of rural NZ only began to recover from a massive hollowing out with land values halving on the back of this once in a lifetime dairy boom that has now come to an end…..back to the future

    • arkie 5.1

      Dairy co-operative Fonterra has cut its dairy payout forecast, after the milk price dropped from $4.15 to $3.90 per kilo of solids.

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/business/298360/fonterra-drops-forecast-milk-payout

      This just keeps getting worse.

      • The Chairman 5.1.1

        Fonterra has a market value of $8.9 billion. However, it has total borrowings of $7.56 billion

        Net interest costs have risen from $269 million in the July 2013 year to $518 million in the latest period.

        The co-op’s International Farming division had a loss of $44 million for the July 2015 year.

        Standard & Poor’s downgraded Fonterra’s long-term rating from “A” to “A-“.

        S&P’s “A-” rating assumed a milk price of $4.60 per kilogram of milksolids compared with Fonterra’s latest forecast of $4.15 per kilogram.

        Hat tip to greywarshark for the link.

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11596222

      • grumpystilskin 5.1.2

        No, whats worse is the small businesses that have to carry Fonterra debt for 90 days & cut margins by 10%.
        I’m a small business, when my clients don’t pay for 30+ days I still have costs to cover from MY suppliers (thank god I have an overdraft) . I understand it’s a business model but it has the potential to kill off many small kiwi contractors. Maybe they are waiting for the TPP to take force so those large overseas operations can come in an carry their debt by employing former local contractors and paying them less?

        • The Chairman 5.1.2.1

          What would be worse is Fonterra not being able to pay its bills, leaving creditors high and dry.

      • Cowboy 5.1.3

        Haven’t heard much about Nathan Guy’s “export double” recently. Funny when prices are going up it’s all because of what brilliant economic managers the govt are and when they are plummeting it’s all because of world markets and “out of our control”.

        • Expat 5.1.3.1

          +1

        • The Chairman 5.1.3.2

          @ Cowboy

          That seems to be similar to Fonterra’s attitude, IMO. No mention of bad management or servicing their high debt being a problem, it’s all because of world markets etc…

    • The Chairman 5.2

      @ pat

      Liquidity problem looming? See comment at 5.1.1

      • pat 5.2.1

        is a question that will be asked….and can say that the restructure that McKinsey recommended appears to have been placed on hold.

  6. Gael 6

    Have you seen the latest attempt at making the general populace want to be a republic!!!!!???? Talk about blatant mindbending propoganda quiz questions… also asking whether you are right or left winged (of course if right winged you get a 10 and left = 0) such blatant propoganda I don’t think I’ve seen in quite some time.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/kiwimeter-kind-kiwi-you

    I turned out to be a Traditionalist … left out in the cold minority with only 14% of the population apparently and obviously living in the past and need to get with the program persay..

    Its incredible…. 3 days till TPPA submissions close.. fek!

    • Ad 6.1

      There was a discussion on this in Open Mike a few days ago.

    • BLiP 6.2

      Definitely more of a push-poll than a genuine quiz. Still, gotta watch them sneaky MSM polls and quizzes. They are often just as much about profiling readers as they are about providing genuine quizzes. By finger-printing the device from which the answers are entered, MSM servers will tailor “product” to best suit your profile so, if you are left wing, you will see more left wing “news”, and so on. Personally, I try to provide as little information as possible to MSM data harvesting operations.

  7. joe90 7

    Given half a chance Collins’ would run her very own black sites.
    /

    Hence Judith Collins’ transparent attempt to re-assert political control. She wants MPs to ask her office before they go into a prison, and she wants to make sure that senior prison officials escort them at every point of their visit.

    Her reasons are, of course, spurious. She cites the case of an MP who shared a female Corrections staffer’s contact details with an offender who has a history of sexual violence. That was certainly a stupid and dangerous thing to do, and Davis has since outed himself as the MP.

    […]

    Collins’ argument that she is just trying to keep visiting MPs safe from “the country’s most difficult and dangerous people” is cant. Her initiative isn’t about the health and safety of her fellow politicians. It’s about power and control.

    It also raises other questions about prisons and accountability. Collins clearly wants prisons to be run out of her office. This means that information about the state of prisons would be entirely in the hands of a hard-line politician who doesn’t think there is anyone in prison who shouldn’t be there and would happily put a lot more people in as well.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/77572241/editorial-collins-seeks-to-crush-the-flow-of-bad-news-coming-out-of-prisons

    • Chooky 7.1

      +100 to that…smacks of police state and persecution of potentially ‘political prisoners’…we need to be protected from Collins

  8. cogito 9

    @BM

    And Todd Barclay is Key’s little fag.

    [Pointless abuse (or dodgy joke) resulting in derail. Moved to Open Mike. BLiP]

    • Lanthanide 9.1

      I find that remark offensive.

      • ianmac 9.1.1

        I think that a “fag” is a name given to those junior pupils who are virtually slaves to the whims of senior pupils at Public Schools like Eton. In that context….

        • weka 9.1.1.1

          It’s also a pun given Wee Toddy Baccy’s connections to the tobacco industry. But I take Lanth’s point. I didn’t know about the private school meaning. Does that get used in NZ?

          • Lanthanide 9.1.1.1.1

            I’ve never heard it before.

            • Puddleglum 9.1.1.1.1.1

              It’s a very well known term associated with Tom Brown’s school days, etc.

              It was the ‘official’ term for a junior boy who would do all the chores for a senior.

              Here’s the Wikipedia entry.

              • Kevin

                Fags were the third form boarders when I was at high school in the early 1980’s. They had a tough life that year.

              • greywarshark

                Since those more innocent or ignorant days, fag may have sexual overtones. Not good. It is becoming acceptable with the barbarians in our
                midst to snigger at jokes about men in jail not wanting to bend over in the shower if they drop the soap. Can we keep this vile attitude out of this blog.

            • BM 9.1.1.1.1.2

              Fagging also involved homosexual activity, a lot of it forced, which is probably where the modern term comes from.

            • te reo putake 9.1.1.1.1.3

              Fagging was normal in nz private schools when I was a lad. It may have faded away in these more liberal times.

              Bm, I think the word may be Yiddish.

            • BM 9.1.1.1.1.4

              Did you ever have to toast crumpets stuck in your butt cheeks TRP.?

            • te reo putake 9.1.1.1.1.5

              No, BM, but if you did, that might explain a little about your current misanthropic attitudes. I wasn’t private schooled, myself. Had a few mates who were and heard the stories. Class war in a school uniform.

      • cogito 9.1.2

        I thought someone would, but it depends on your understanding of the word.

        “Fag, a junior boy who acts or acted as servant (“fagging”) to a senior boy at a British public school”

        And – separately – I presume you know that Barclay worked for Philip Morris.

  9. weka 10

    Speaking of age, here’s the ODT coverage of the student balcony collapse in Dunedin over the weekend. A couple of things stand out for me.

    One is the photo in the first link, which shows people on the remaining balconies laughing and taking photos immediately after the collapse where some people had fallen 3m and some people had a balcony collapse on top of them and all of that is visible to the people laughing (it’s much more obvious in the front page version of the hardcopy). Why are they laughing, and why are they not concerned about their own balcony? Alcohol is a factor, but I think there is something else going on here.

    The other thing is, why are these people not at a protest 😉 By the time I was that age, I’d already protested against the Tour and marched up the motorway in Dunedin with thousands of people including many students who were at the forefront of organising the protests. Why do we not have that culture now? I’m being a bit facetious, because of course partying hard was part of uni culture then too, but politics were still a thing too.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/375500/no-criminal-investigation-balcony-collapse

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/375391/two-seriously-hurt-after-balcony-collapse

    • Gangnam Style 10.1

      I wish more people would look at the builder/developers instead of the students all the time, should that balcony have nothing holding it up? The police are not going to investigate, Worksafe have walked away shrugging their shoulders. It’s like a shanty town that area.

      • vto 10.1.1

        Those balconies were pieces of shit. Should have had a post under each corner. Trying to cantilever balconies in that way is complete and utter negligence.

        Total negligence in construction.

        quelle surprise

        the construction sector in NZ is appalling

        • weka 10.1.1.1

          Those buildings aren’t that old either (relative to Dunedin housing in general), but I don’t know if they predate changes to the building code or not.

          I agree, the balconies were probably deficient for the use. But they were probably not built to have a full load of jumping students on them either, so might well have been fit for the purpose they were designed for (residential use). I wasn’t quite sure from the articles, but this is a private residence right? And a private party (eg no tickets sold)?

          This comes on the back of the annual couch burning fest that happens in Dunedin, and that along with other problems suggests that the culture there isn’t particularly healthy. Maybe this will wake a few people up.

          Cantilevers. I looked at the photo and thought, did no-one teach these kids about Cave Creek when they were at school?

        • joe90 10.1.1.2

          Trying to cantilever balconies in that way is complete and utter negligence.

          Nope, code says cantilevered joists are okay.

          • vto 10.1.1.2.1

            code and negligence have a history of association in nz

            they are far from mutually exclusive

          • maui 10.1.1.2.2

            Developer/Designer/Builder have a responsibility to specify what is appropriate for that environment. A cantilevered balcony was chosen for one of the rowdiest, destructive streets in the country where its structural capacity would be severely tested. I find it hard to imagine that no one along the design process said, do you think the design of those balconies are ok?

        • greywarshark 10.1.1.3

          I heard someone knowledgable on radio saying that balconies are supposed to be able to support 200 kg per square metre or something. These days that might not be enough for a load bearing certificate.

          As for students worrying about load bearing – they are young, they wouldn’t expect to have to inspect the specifications of a house before they let rip with their party. And worry – that’s SEP.

          Really it just underlines how we depend on trusting each other to do the proper job. Those who don’t should have to sit in town stocks for a day so we can see the so and sos and throw tomatoes at them. They would hate that, and it would keep them out of prison and away from those really nasty criminals.

          Think about the trust required when flying. We should actually question the pilot each time we get onto a small plane, carry a checklist to go through before we fly with one of these possible adult idiots who run small airlines like Bannerman? in Christchurch. Like the hot air balloon pilate, washed his hands of responsibility for taking care. Ask have they looked at the weather forecast and are planning to fly round storms? Have they enough fuel? Do their emergency beacons work, have they current batteries?

      • joe90 10.1.2

        I wish more people would look at the builder/developers instead of the students all the time, should that balcony have nothing holding it up?

        Cantilevered balcony joists snap because idiots overload the structure.

        http://www.odt.co.nz/files/story/2016/03/the_flat_minus_its_balcony_photo_christine_o_conno_56da31b8d5.JPG

        • Andre 10.1.2.1

          Maybe, maybe not. Last time I looked at floor loadings in a building code (not New Zealand admittedly), you’d have to pack people in pretty tight to get to design load. Then there’s generous safety factors on top of that.

          Where a cantilevered joist comes out of the wall turns into a moisture trap really easily. In the right continually wet conditions, even H3 will rot pretty quickly. Looking at the photos, those joists look smallish for the length of cantilever. Then if the builders there pulled a real plonker stunt like they did on the cantilevered deck for my house and notched the joists where they sit on the bearers…

          • greywarshark 10.1.2.1.1

            Andre
            That is an important point worth considering. Design features can be circumvented by the erectors of whatever, because of long-established methods they prefer to use as known practices and easier to follow, than the actual specified method.

            Then there is the question of the allowed width of any cantilevered balcony..
            There should be standards set by a professional and knowledgable department of building standards that can be consulted free, and which gives detailed information at low cost. Hah hah NZ I bet we haven’t anything like one of these services from our beloved gummint. Now that’s a mint to chew on.

            BRANZ I think might have done that in the past, but now when I looked at it for helpful information, it referred me to the type of private consultant who would provide it.

            Looking at their site they seem to be busy with industry information, but for ordinary NZs – do they have a role of informing them and protecting them against the shonky, the makeshift, the fast johnnies?

            Perhaps they had abandoned the informative, cautionary role long ago and so did not concern themselves with overseas findings of failures with the cladding systems, that were adopted here, although known to be trouble elsewhere.
            This, we know has led to ordinary working people losing their entire investment and savings because of a shonky house, finding that the best resolution would be to demolish the remains of their home and sell the bare land to recover some of their mortgage.

            This is from their contact us page under a query box where you can describe your concern.

            Our professionals helpline – 0800 80 80 85 – is available free to those who work within the New Zealand building and construction industry.

            Our consumer helpline is 0900 5 90 90 – calls cost $1.99 per minute, plus GST. Full knowledge of the details of your enquiry may result in you being referred to someone else.

            We regret we are unable to respond to technical queries by email. All helpline responses are strictly on a case-by-case basis and are solely based on the information provided.

            If your question is of a non-technical nature, please complete the contact us form above, and we will endeavour to respond to you within 48 hours.

        • Gangnam Style 10.1.2.2

          Fair enough but people are idiots aren’t they? That’s why we legislate (Stop signs, ‘flammable’ notices, handrails). Most of these kids would have had no idea, now they do, harsh lesson learnt. (A few landlords are up there now adding strength to their balconies, still looks rough, but who cares each out for their own make a buck & move on).

          • joe90 10.1.2.2.1

            Do think the young will ever not have a few idiotic moments here & there? & the people hurt were standing underneath the balconies? Fair enough 2 broke their backs?

            A few weeks ago at my friend left his five children and headed off to start his morning shift and was killed a few minutes later by a young woman crossing the centre line.

            Had she survived there’s little doubt she would’ve been prosecuted as should the idiots who overloaded the balcony. Fair enough?

            • Rosie 10.1.2.2.1.1

              Oh, what a terrible loss. So very sorry joe90.

              • joe90

                I knew/know the young woman, her partner and their family members too Rosie so a tragedy all round.

                • Rosie

                  What a tragic impact impact on so many lives. Arohanui joe

                  • greywarshark

                    joe 90
                    Sympathy to all. Just seconds apart and all would have been different.
                    Those vital seconds extinguish lifetimes. Hard to accept.

    • Rosie 10.2

      Re the balcony collapse at the six60 gig.

      I was also a little confused about the behaviour of the crowd immediately after the collapse. Footage I’d seen showed people looking at the aftermath and cheering. I saw a guy with two drinks in his hands raise them up. I’m guessing this is just really bad judgement from drunk people, in what would have been a traumatic situation for those with serious injuries.

      But then there may have been people that rushed to help. We don’t know. Also the Police asked the band to continue playing after the collapse to distract people away from the scene so they might have had such short attention spans that they, once again, feeling wasted, just got back on with the buzz of it.

      Still, there did seem to be a disconnect didn’t there?

      As an aside, Mr R experienced a weird crowd reaction yesterday. It was also a disconnection to the seriousness of the situation, or at least a lack of reaction, not appropriate to the situation.

      Walking down the street on afternoon tea break he watched as an elderly woman got up from an outdoor table where she was having coffee. He saw her trip on the leg of the table, begin to fall and he went running to her to stop her falling any further. He got there just in time and caught her, but not before she hit her head on the corner of the table.
      He held her and held his hand under her wound which was bleeding terribly, all over him , all over her, all over the footpath. By this time there was a crowd standing around them. He asked the crowd to call an ambulance., Nothing. They just stared. He asked again, and still nothing, just more staring at him and the woman. It took him three goes for anyone to get their phone out and call an ambulance. On the third instruction he was yelling at the crowd.

      While he was fine with dealing with the injured woman he was totally shocked and annoyed by the lack of response from the crowd.

      • weka 10.2.1

        News reports say that there were plenty of people helping on the ground. The ones higher up seemed to not understand the seriousness of what happened, which is bizarre.

        That’s a disturbing story about Mr R. and I think that’s what I was getting at. Are we so disconnected now? Bad shit happening to people is something you see on TV so when it happens in real life there’s confusion about whether to be a spectator or not? In the front page photo in the ODT the number of cell phones being held up to record what is happening sticks out.

        The watershed moment for me was listening to the TV reporter talk about the immediate moments after the big Chch quake. She proudly talked about how she was on the streets with a cameraman within 1 minute. They filmed what was going on, including people trying to get other people out of collapsed buildings. That she not only thought this was appropriate behaviour but felt proud of it is mindboggling to me. She was interviewed again recently for the 5 year anniversary. I had to turn the radio off.

        I think there are times when it’s appropriate to be removed from such situations. eg critical media reporting has alerted the world to what is going on in war zones. But in Chch that wasn’t necessary, whereas helping people in great pain and distress was. At the scene of an accident, if you can’t help, you get yourself out of the way so that emergency crews and people on the scene can do what is needed. You don’t have to watch.

        edit, thinking about it, I wonder if many people now just have no clues what to do in emergencies. I attended to an elderly couple in a store one who were having an acute medical emergency and there were people there who had no idea what to do. Even so, the scene you describe to me seems very odd. Calling 111 isn’t rocket science.

        • Rosie 10.2.1.1

          Psychology refers to the “bystander effect”, a phenomenon where the more people there are at an emergency scene the less likely one will come forward to assist. In a situation where there are very few, one is forced to assist, out of a sense of duty.

          But I don’t know what psychology would say now days about our apparent reluctance – our disconnection , or inappropriate responses. I’m sure there are theories on it, or theories on whether our behaviour has changed. Have we moved so far away from the concept of collective care, eg, pre neolib days, that the need to respond to another in distress just doesn’t compute? I don’t know if it’s the influence of the culture of political systems or something else entirely. That’s one for the sociologists.

          Musings aside, in your situation with the elderly couple and in Mr R’s situation, the most helpful and the easiest thing for bystanders to do is dial 111. Why the blockage around that? I just don’t get it.

          PS: I remember tv chanels crowing about the fact they were “first on the scene” with their cameras, vulture like, focused on the victims on 22.02.11. Made me sick.

          • McFlock 10.2.1.1.1

            The other crowd effect relevant to that situation is the “milling” effect, where nobody does anything until somebody does something, then everybody does the same thing.

            Some people are switched on and jump to action more than others – a sort of vacancy takes over until they find a familiar thing to latch onto and start working from. Very common startle reflex: fight / flight / freeze.

            One trick is to speak to an individual, address them directly – can you call and ambulance, etc. It breaks them out of the spectator mode.

            Most people milling from day to day aren’t put into these sorts of situations, and we probably wouldn’t want too many keyed up, leap into action types walking around anyway. Too far the other side are the sort who also get swept away while trying to save others, take on the armed robber over $150 till takings, that sort of thing.

            Cops and soldiers can change modes pretty quick (ISTR Ron Mark had an active role in the aftermath of a traffic accident a while back – probably no coincidence that he’s ex-army, IMO), and so are others trained in outdoorsey stuff where you need to plan for these things (one of the best incident bystanders I encountered was in a scuba diving club – practically had everything handled before the ambulance came, and it was a fairly complex case as well).

            • Rosie 10.2.1.1.1.1

              The “milling effect” you refer to could explain what Mr R encountered yesterday, but really it was more like an overwhelming inertia. After some time did only one person eventually phone 111 when instructed. And I do mean directly instructed.

              Understand your explanation “where nobody does anything until somebody does something, then everybody does the same thing.” I’m in the situation where I observe ducks, most days and they do this en masse but humans, in a vacuous state, I could see that applying to.

              I guess in Mr R’s circumstance, he is switched on to observation. He’s a health and safety officer at his workplace. He saw it coming where as others who were closer to the person just walked away as it was happening.

              As another side note I couldn’t help think of the irony of so many people being so disconnected to daily life and social observation because they have their face in a smart phone all day but in a real life situation they completely fail to act and use the phone for something, well, useful.

              • McFlock

                A really interesting experiment was to put students in a mock exam situation, all authority figures leave the room, and smoke comes under the door after a while.

                All except one of the students were confederates instructed to ignore the smoke, but follow the test subject if they left. The control was to leave the room when the smoke was noticed.

                If everyone else acted unconcerned, the test subject usually stayed in the room until the smoke was very thick, despite obvious discomfort and concern for personal safety.

      • dv 10.2.2

        I have been told the best way to deal with such a situation is to directly ask some one in the crowd – make it personal
        Like “could you the person in the blue jersey please call 111, and look directly at them.

        • greywarshark 10.2.2.1

          @dv
          Brilliant. That is something I recall and have seen it happen. So that is something to put in our mental notes for emergencies. Make it personal – get a who, me response.
          And if the person doesn’t respond say to the next person, ‘Are you a capable person’? Phone for an ambulance, just 111, tell them where, or get the person next to you to do it?

          I have read of a woman who collapsed in a main city street, with people carefully going round her, but one man apparently stepped over her, but no one squatting down by her head and trying to communicate or help her. I think she was a nurse, used to helping people in difficulty, and was wounded in her respect for others, when she found that the public didn’t help others in distress, and particularly, return her level of care, to herself when needed.
          edited

      • greywarshark 10.2.3

        Rosie
        That was interesting. In a world of individuals, apparently people still wait for someone else to take over in an unusual situation. It’s like people are basically conformists and in their mental book of etiquette there is no prior instruction of what to do when there is no-one in authority to take charge. And we often are unaccustomed to acting with initiative. People are not very compassionate these days, more uncaring and censorious than they used to be I think.

        I remember the story long ago of the NZ woman and her friend at Hampton Court in London who along with other visitors were confronted by a workman who had been down a manhole and just managed to get up to advise that his mate had collapsed.
        She looked around and none of the men moved to do anything, so she went down, no doubt carefully, to check the situation, and with her friend formed a rescue team,
        successfully.

        But it is amazing that people can’t even call an ambulance. The emotion of shock, coupled with an avid and ghoulish curiosity about this novel event, must produce this unpleasant result of dissociation.

        • Rosie 10.2.3.1

          Ah yes, dissociation. That’s the word. Thank you grey. I agree, there is less compassion in our society too.

  10. adam 11

    “If some man has a dollar he didn’t work for, some other man worked for a dollar he didn’t get”

    Bill Haywood

    I’d like to change Big Bill’s comment, to reflect a more intersected movement.

    “If some man has a dollar he didn’t work for, someone worked for a dollar they didn’t get”

    • BLiP 11.1

      “If a person receives money for doing no work, someone else has worked for money they never received”

      • adam 11.1.1

        Nah BLiP it’s still men who dominate in exploitation

        • BLiP 11.1.1.1

          I don’t doubt that for a minute, but how is using the gender specific term in your first clause an example of an intersected statement which improved upon the Bill Haywood observation? It does improve on somewhat but cannot be fully intersected. It seems Haywood is addressing exploitation rather than he is addressing exploitative men.

          (Serious question, I’ve just been getting into this whole critical theory of oppressive institutions and its linguistics.)

          • adam 11.1.1.1.1

            I agree, Big Bill Haywood is speaking to exploitation, and in the language of his time.

            I just think we can do both with his quote by tweaking it a bit.

            It’s a patriarchal society, which we still live in. So we need to talk to power, we do no one any favours by making the first part gender neutral.

            • weka 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Maybe it depends on context. If it’s general (which is how I’m reading it not knowing who Haywood is), then make both clauses gender neutral. I think we now have enough women making money off other people to warrant that.

              • adam

                Disagree weka, women own, well not much. Plus women are exploited more.

                Big Bill Haywood.

                http://www.britannica.com/biography/William-D-Haywood

                • weka

                  I guess it depends on what you mean by not working, but I know plenty of women doing well off investments and interest on savings. I’m not comparing numbers of women to men or women to women, I’m looking at women in NZ and seeing a big chunk that fit what you are saying.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    +1

                    I think the gender neutral term is better. Targeting men only excuses the women also doing it.

  11. Penny Bright 14

    Seen this?

    http://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2016/mar/04/councils-outsourcing-local-authorities-contract-services

    Public Leaders Network
    It’s time for councils to stop out-of-control outsourcing
    __________________________

    Yep – I agree.

    Same issue applies -in my view – to Auckland Council and Auckland Council Controlled Organisations (CCOs).

    Penny Bright
    2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate

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