Open mike 09/05/2024

100 comments on “Open mike 09/05/2024 ”

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1. gsays 1

   9 May 2024 at 6:50 am

   Steve Albini has died.

   Fantastic audio engineer who always got a great drum sound. Dave Grohl never sounded better than on In Utero.

   Lucky enough to see Shellac play at The Kings Arms. A delayed but incredible show.

   Too young.

   https://pitchfork.com/news/steve-albini-storied-producer-and-icon-of-the-rock-underground-dies-at-61/
2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

   9 May 2024 at 8:50 am

   "Nicola Willis rules out austerity Budget"

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/516357/darkest-before-the-dawn-nicola-willis-rules-out-austerity-budget

   Well..thats good news for her kids. The movies and icecream still be coming…
   • Bearded Git 2.1

     9 May 2024 at 9:24 am

     National, through Luxon and Willis, is talking a lot about "social investment". This was the magical tool Bill English talked a lot about.

     It sounds very good at press conferences and pre-budget meetings, conveying a sense of compassionate conservatism, but in reality nothing actually transpires from it in terms of concrete action.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.1

       9 May 2024 at 9:35 am

       Of course that Nat "social investment" is mainly targeting specific groups. Their "social network", aka landlords, business people, etc; ….

       The rest of us….belts tightened
     • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.1.2

       9 May 2024 at 10:05 am

       Social Investment = providing another opportunity for rich people to extract wealth from everyone else. Usually.
     • SPC 2.1.3

       9 May 2024 at 12:15 pm

       If Bill English had placed money into the Cullen-Robertson Fund (now over $70B), it would have now been worth over $100B.

       His decision not to to invest, cost us at least $10B and that is net of debt cost.

       That said, there was the option of a 1% surcharge on employee and employer into the Fund to finance it without debt, or use of a budget surplus.

       A bit late now, given it is/was a generational tool to afford the 2030-2050 cost of super to the taxpayer.

       It now has two purposes

       2030-2050 generate revenue for the government and if (and where) possible do so in way that contributes to our infrastructure needs.
       • Corey 2.1.3.1

         9 May 2024 at 1:04 pm

         True, also Imagine what the super fund would be worth had Muldoon and the National party not made the worst economic decision in NZ history and scrapped it.

         I have no idea how these people are held up as good economic managers when they just butcher long term economic stability for short term growth.
         • mikesh 2.1.3.1.1

           9 May 2024 at 4:24 pm

           True, also Imagine what the super fund would be worth had Muldoon and the National party not made the worst economic decision in NZ history and scrapped it.

           I don't agree. It was a burden on both workers and employers – at least kiwisaver is voluntary – and the larger employer contributions would probably have impacted on wages. And there were also other problems. Latecomers and non working wives would have needed top ups. Whatever one thinks of Muldoon his National Super seems preferable.
         • bwaghorn 2.1.3.1.2

           9 May 2024 at 5:05 pm

           It would have changed my future massively, while my kiwisaver is healthy after 13 years, I've been working full time in nz for 32 years,I'd love to know what the stash would have looked like if muldoon had fucked off.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   9 May 2024 at 9:06 am

   Still no sign of the strong Opposition we were promised… https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/05/08/persistent-green-party-scandals-delay-caucus-reset/

   The party launched an independent investigation into Tana nearly two months ago, which still has yet to report back. While Davidson said the investigation had to be left to its own processes, Swarbrick was vocally frustrated about the delays on Tuesday. In the meantime, the party has removed Tana from its website. An archived version of the Greens’ site shows this change was made at least as early as April 16.

   Newsroom understands the Greens will finalise a reshuffle later this week, now that Hernandez has been sworn in. But it’s also difficult for the party to feel like this new-look caucus will look the same for any serious length of time when Tana’s future is still unknown. She currently holds the oceans and fisheries role, which is increasingly relevant amid the Government’s extended policy programme for fisheries, rolling back ocean conservation rules and expanding aquaculture. She is also the party’s media and communications spokesperson, which has been a hot topic in recent months.

   Perhaps the independent investigation is up against privacy law? Hard to get facts on employee exploitation if the law deems it private enterprise, huh? Capitalism's exploitation of employees has been part of normalcy for centuries. In theory a Green capitalist could do better, but only if authentic. Meanwhile a reshuffle ought to at least produce a semi-plausible allocation of duties.

   Shaw’s portfolios of climate change, finance, public service and regulation are all high-profile and ambitious MPs will be eager to gain one in the coming reshuffle. Swarbrick is likely to pick up the climate job, having made her desire for it clear during her co-leadership bid. She is also understood to be picking up Shaw’s failed member’s bill, on entrenching the right to a sustainable environment within the Bill of Rights Act, making her the face of the party’s environmental wing.

   Swarbrick or Genter are both obvious choices for the finance role, as they are detail-oriented and self-described policy wonks. Genter, however, is unlikely to end up with it, as it could be seen as rewarding her poor behaviour. This is backed up by the fact Swarbrick has held both climate and finance roles in an acting capacity, according to the Greens’ website.

   The thing to keep in mind is repositioning to take advantage of any sudden govt collapse: the team needs to seem ready to re-enter govt on the basis of competence. Rewarding Genter for inept public relations seems a bad start in this direction – better to use someone else who can cope with the pressure.
   • weka 3.1

     9 May 2024 at 9:22 am

     we don't know what the pressure is in this case.
   • Bearded Git 3.2

     9 May 2024 at 9:28 am

     Dennis-Genter has had 13 impressive years in parliament. One dumb act, carried out under provocation, does not alter this track record.

     Read my TS posts yesterday.
     • Dennis Frank 3.2.1

       9 May 2024 at 10:06 am

       She has established a pattern of bad behaviour via four different people: one Nat minister and one councillor (both male) and two of her constituents (both female). All four have featured in multiple media reports recently. You don't need death by a thousand cuts to do the damage, you just need a persistent pattern that folks notice.

       The arm-grab struck me as an extremely dodgy political tactic. It wasn't reported as an assault: the shopkeeper commented on how unusual the behaviour was though. Perhaps the Greens will go with the JAG arm-grab as their favoured new method of impressing voters. Not deterring her would send the message that they hope it'll trend on social media as the latest form of left-wing activism…
       • Bearded Git 3.2.1.1

         9 May 2024 at 10:17 am

         Wow Dennis you are really buying in to this MSM beat up. Just to repeat my posts from yesterday:

         1. "Don't believe everything you read. Van der Kaay writes for the so-called "Democracy Project" run by Bryce Edwards.

         Edwards has for many years consistently criticized parties from the Left while acting as an apologist for the Right.

         The Greens have had 3 unfortunate events.

         1. Shoplifting by a sick and clinically depressed member. She has been sent packing-dealt with.
         2. The as yet unproven migrant exploitation accusation. Under investigation so perhaps best to hold fire on this, but if found true is a bad look and she too will be sent packing.
         3. JAG's crossing the floor and shouting at Doocey (after the lies he yelled provoked her) which is under investigation, and the accusation that she yelled at an anti-cycleway zealot who it turns out, according to posts on TS, is a bit nasty. JAG has an excellent (and to my knowledge unblemished) record for the Greens over many years, both inside and outside parliament.

         Kaay’s article is not worth a hill of beans."

         2. "Come off it gsays. Genter has been in parliament 13 years behaving, to my knowledge, impeccably.

         Then she gets het up because Doocey yells lies at her (completely ignoring the real spending facts on roading) so she crosses the aisle to show him the actual numbers in the report.

         In an obvious, coordinated and probably made-up hit National drags up a witness to another episode where a passionate JAG meets an anti-cycleway (code for National/ACT voter) person who claims (unproven, no witnesses) she too was yelled at by JAG. Note: Nobody would offer to video a meeting where they were yelling at a constituent.

         It was a very dumb thing to do to cross the aisle and JAG should get a sanction from the privileges committee for this-presumably they will take into account the previous 13 years of not doing this. Note: apparently crossing the aisle is not against the rules.

         I don't see the relevance of Doocey's mental history (you are clutching at straws here). If you are fit to be in parliament you are fit to be part of the rough and tumble. In this case he bears some of the blame by yelling obvious lies in the first place. Maybe this will teach him to stick to yelling the truth."

         3. "gsays-I didn't gloss over anything. The Kerekere bullying happened well over a year ago which is not anywhere close to the period I am commenting on above in relation to Kaay's biased article.

         I commented on the three relatively current events that the MSM media seems to be trying to portray as a pattern, where nothing could be further from the truth.

         If we are to start going back a couple of years there are National MP misdemeanors as long as my arm."
         • David 3.2.1.1.1

           9 May 2024 at 10:29 am

           My understanding is that Bryce Edwards is highly regarded by all sides in the political debate.
           It is also interesting that the owners of any business in Wellington that have had a disagreement with the current mayor or Green Party mp face bullying from random people online. This suggests to me that there are a number of toxic people on the left. We should have nothing to do with this type of behaviour.
           • Bearded Git 3.2.1.1.1.1

             9 May 2024 at 10:41 am

             David-there have been plenty of posts on TS over the years criticising Edwards' negative stance towards the Left in his writing and in his appearances on The Panel, Checkpoint, Morning Report etc.

             I am sure he is held in high regard by members of the current government for this reason.

             Incidentally my description of migrant exploitation as “a bad look” is, on reflection poor. I should have said “unacceptable behaviour”.
             • David …

               9 May 2024 at 11:16 am

               Disagreement is perfectly acceptable and should be welcomed. Unless you have a tendency towards being an authoritarian…
           • observer 3.2.1.1.1.2

             9 May 2024 at 11:09 am

             Bryce has been a joke for years.

             Complaints upheld …

             Complaint about RNZ use of Bryce Edwards article upheld « The Standard

             And past forecasts so wrong he should not be taken seriously by anyone.

             We are in a period of great political volatility – the New Zealand election is far from decided | Bryce Edwards | The Guardian

             Todd Muller’s beige persona might not be a bad thing in the battle against Jacinda Ardern | Bryce Edwards | The Guardian

             and many more examples, if you care to read up on them.
           • newsense 3.2.1.1.1.3

             9 May 2024 at 11:39 am

             Or they harangued an MP buying flowers for a dying friend and were triumphalist about her bloc losing the government benches. Or when the MP was out in public not in an official capacity.

             It’s a bit like asking Destiny church about the gay marriage advocates.

             Edwards is a stooge whose stuff and his mates stuff happily appears on The Platform and whose use of the university emblem I find interesting at best.

             And let’s not be too harsh on Matt Doocey- being completely wrong about say giving landlords money making rents go down or how many beds at $1.9 million a prison will have or if something is funded or not is ministerial under Luxon.
           • Ad 3.2.1.1.1.4

             9 May 2024 at 1:31 pm

             I think he's good.
             • SPC …

               9 May 2024 at 3:21 pm

               He's published in the Herald, his university has the Democracy Project with people like Adams and his compendium of the week in politics includes right wing commentator quotes and links.

               He would have to be very very good to rise above the associations …
             • newsense …

               9 May 2024 at 11:20 pm

               A former Alliance guy who repudiates anything Jim Anderton might have campaigned for reflexively, unless it can be used to castigate current left wing politicians for being too focused on identity issues as well social justice.

               Does that accurately describe the current Labour Party?

               Dentistry eventually, last manifesto so all bets are off.

               Only problem for Dr Bryce is that doesn’t pay well, so further we will go. The angry occupation at parliament mixed with aggressive online misogyny for Dame Jacinda Ardern was pretty similar to what Sir John Key struggled through, according to Dr. Bryce. That plays well on the Platform. Where they’ve removed themselves from Press Council oversight, so they can…?
         • James Simpson 3.2.1.1.2

           9 May 2024 at 10:59 am

           Wow Dennis you are really buying in to this MSM beat up.

           Are you suggesting the Green Party leadership is buying into the "MSM beat up" as well through initiating an internal disciplinary process.

           Or do you think you might be out on a limb here in downplaying behaviour which we on the left at least, don't tolerate?
           • Bearded Git 3.2.1.1.2.1

             9 May 2024 at 12:29 pm

             James-I think the Greens will undertake an honest appraisal of JAG's behaviour in the house.

             She will get a verdict "don't do it again" and a slap on the wrist.

             Personally I applaud her passion-she had had enough of being told that the last 6 years had been under a patently hopeless and economically illiterate government, where in fact that is what we have now.
         • Drowsy M. Kram 3.2.1.1.3

           9 May 2024 at 11:01 am

           What might Dennis be up to – maybe he's thinking of doing a runner Trotter
           • SPC 3.2.1.1.3.1

             9 May 2024 at 11:31 am

             He was once a Green man … but not now that the next generation are in charge … these days everyone – especially women are so young and know not how to behave …

             They are cynical; that is, they tend to put the worse construction on everything. Further, their experience makes them distrustful and therefore suspicious of evil. Consequently they neither love warmly nor hate bitterly….They are small-minded, because they have been humbled by life: their desires are set upon nothing more exalted or unusual than what will help them to keep alive. They are not generous, because money is one of the things they must have….They are cowardly, and are always anticipating danger; unlike that of the young, who are warm-blooded, their temperament is chilly…"

             https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/a4vnuv/old_generations_complain_about_the_next_one_since/

             Trotter on the left, Du Fresne and Plunkett on the right.
       • SPC 3.2.1.2

         9 May 2024 at 11:23 am

         What is this, Kiwblog style, ganging up on a woman MP moment?

         FACT CHECK

         The Johnston Street shop is in the Wellington Central electorate, they approached the then Auckland based list MP in Midland Park about a letter the MP sent to Lester Mayor of Wellington 5 years earlier (this while Genter was Associate Minister of Transport – a position they did not hold at the later time). Google up on Reddit if you want a commentary about stuff the MSM do not publish.

         An arm grab is not a political tactic, it is a reaction to having her time in a park disturbed.

         Have the police ever prosecuted an arm grab as an assault?

         PERSPECTIVE

         If you think it was wrong for Genter to approach the City Councillor while he was engaged otherwise, what about the Johnston shopowner disturbing a list MP in a park and the flower shopowner doing it to the MP when she pops in to buy flowers on visiting the hospital nearby? Nick R covered the interface with other members of the public (former customers).

         Genter has said she will no longer engage with angry people, but will just walk away. More generally MP's should just hand out a card when living their personal lives. After all list MP's are not experts in conflict de-escalation but advocates for their party policies and on becoming an electorate MP have to determine how to manage being available to offer assistance to constituents in a safe way.
         • Bearded Git 3.2.1.2.1

           9 May 2024 at 6:19 pm

           Good facts there SPC-thanks for that.

           Of course the reasons for the concerted attacks on Genter and the Greens are:

           1. The Right is worried that the Greens polled 14% in the recent TV1 poll.
           2. The Right is still in shock that Genter won Rongotai, and the Greens won 3 electorates.
         • Shanreagh 3.2.1.2.2

           9 May 2024 at 6:30 pm

           She's going to have a quiet life then in this electorate at the moment.

           'Genter has said she will no longer engage with angry people, but will just walk away. '

           Very clear she is inexperienced at what happens in electorate offices

           People in the electorate just don't pop by to say 'hi, well done and how are you?'

           They go there usually because they often feel they cannot get any further following the process and need a spanner thrown into the works to disrupt it, to have the problem defined differently etc. You can get tears to laughter and everything between including anger, in an electorate office.
           • SPC 3.2.1.2.2.1

             9 May 2024 at 6:45 pm

             She would have already met people in the electorate office. No problems as far as anyone knows.

             People go to have a situation dealt with, not to argue policies. Though they can provide feedback as to impact of policy.

             The presence of others and the focus on being in the workplace provides it’s own discipline.
             • Shanreagh …

               9 May 2024 at 7:12 pm

               So why the focus on 'Genter has said she will no longer engage with angry people, but will just walk away. '

               She will get angry people in her electorate offices, how does the de-escalation differ here from out and about. Seems a bit of a strange distinction. It sounds more that she does not want to talk about or be exposed to thinking that is not similar to her own. That actually won't work if she is to be a welcoming and competent MP adept at handling issues of concern when in an office or out and about.
               • SPC …

                 9 May 2024 at 7:34 pm

                 Because it was what she said – as to being approached by angry people while she is not at work as MP.

                 An MP can ask those who get angry in the office to leave. And there are others about.

                 It sounds more that she does not want to talk about or be exposed to thinking that is not similar to her own.

                 Being willing to be hassled in public when out and about in their personal life is not a required part of the job. And being exposed to different opinion is a known when becoming a politician.
                 • Shanreagh …

                   9 May 2024 at 10:27 pm

                   Being approached by people while out and about is a known fact of life for all MPs. Many take pains to keep some private time that does not involve being out and about publically. MPs who frequent popular local areas so-called 'privately' where MPs usually are keen to be seen such as markets, galas, walking down popular local streets etc have only themselves to blame if a naughty member of a public approaches them. Especially if said member of the public is annoyed.

                   I been with MPs who have been approached by people while they are at concerts, films, theatre, sports, even after funerals, at tangi Most are happy with a brief chat and a card with the electorate secs name/phone number on it to arrange an appt, I have been with MPs when they have had an impromptu 'clinic' at a restaurant private table/place & once in a sports club rooms as they were so concerned at what they were hearing/worried about their constituent.

                   The MP I was with usually got the person's name and contact details and sometimes, once back at the office, would phone, email, write a letter acknowledging the contact and reiterating the contact details.
   • Traveller 3.3

     9 May 2024 at 9:29 am

     "Hard to get facts on employee exploitation if the law deems it private enterprise, huh?

     Not at all. If the allegations go to migrant exploitation, then my understanding is they go to potential criminal activity under the Immigration Act. There is no-where to hide in that case. I'm not a Green Party supporter, but I am prepared to accept the investigation may be constrained by factors well beyond their control.
     • SPC 3.3.1

       9 May 2024 at 11:40 am

       If the allegations are true, so not on brand …
   • Jimmy 3.4

     9 May 2024 at 11:06 am

     Darleen Tana no longer appears on the Green Party website so they may have already made a decision regarding her. However James Shaw still appears so maybe not yet updated.
4. ianmac 4

   9 May 2024 at 9:50 am

   The NZ Initiative with Johnson at the wheel while colluding with the Minister of Ed, has succeeded in running the NZ education "reform."

   Laura Walters outlines how the capture came about:

   While there was no suggestion of any wrongdoing by Johnston or the NZI – in fact, one educator who spoke to Newsroom suggested they were just “making hay while the sun shines” – many voiced concern at the outsized or disproportionate influence one man, one think tank, and one ideology was having on the direction of Aotearoa’s education system…..

   “The current over-reach of a small group of researchers at the expense of the wider professional and academic field is cause for concern,” Aotearoa Educators Collective spokesperson Maurie Abraham said in a statement, following Stanford’s education priorities announcement.

   https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/05/08/meet-the-man-behind-the-governments-education-policy/?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=4346ab0c8e-Daily_Briefing+09.05.2024&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-4346ab0c8e-95522477&mc_cid=4346ab0c8e&mc_eid=88a3081e75
   • SPC 4.1

     9 May 2024 at 12:30 pm

     Atlas Network holds up the sky so that capitalism can reign.

     If it did not do this the people might have human dominion, sustain the earth as a habitat for life and build a society not driven by personal greed along the golden brick road to their multi-million dollar weekend "bach".

     While only a few can share in the dream of being one of the well to do elite – offering a change to the way children read provides the sort of hope that just maybe one of the children of the common folk might win the hunger games – and sing long enough to see off the snakepit (the hissing of the losers, such as the once champion knights of the realm and now cellar dwellers).
5. Anne 5

   9 May 2024 at 10:35 am

   So, they're trying the old 1990s trick again:

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/516371/government-to-introduce-compulsory-work-seminar-for-job-seeking-beneficiaries

   Sounds reasonable but it didn't work out in practice last time and I suspect it won't again. In fact it turned into a witch-hunt against people who, through no fault of their own, had been flung on the scrap heap during a time when job opportunities were scarce.

   Remember the woman, Christine Rankin with the very short, low-cut dresses that left nothing to the imagination? Are they going to drag her out of retirement to do their dirty work again? (sarc)

   As a former qualified Public Servant who was amongst those cast out back then, I received a letter demanding I attend a seminar on:

   "How to dress and look smart for a job interview."

   They received a reply which left them in no doubt my feelings on the subject – at least as it applied to me. I heard no more from them and never attended the seminar. 👿
   • SPC 5.1

     9 May 2024 at 12:03 pm

     Those who have lost employment should get 6 months to sort their job search out themselves (and register for temp work – use different ones for different work categories).

     After 6 months, a processing (including notification of training providers available) for transfer to the Work Broker (stuff like industry apprenticeship and or work experience opportunities etc – they are the ones in contact with employers).

     The W and I requirements are about initiating the unemployed into an accountability regime. Doing it to laid off PS workers is obnoxious and is presumably supposed to usher in a reign of fear among those still employed in the PS.

     National wants the unemployed to run the treadmill of W and I oversight of their job search – all while the pool of the unemployed grows – this ensures employers have more power relative to their existing workers (wages suppressed while rents rise will cause a run on food banks of the like we have not seen – back in the 1990's people fled to Oz to escape it).

     My remembrance of the formation of Work and Income back in Oct 1 1998 was the requirements of the unemployed to go to Job Clubs run by external providers (religious groups who wanted those on welfare to bend their knee to Jesus).
   • AB 5.2

     9 May 2024 at 1:40 pm

     Having to attend that seminar would make sense only if you were laid off for being scruffy – which itself would be an insufficient reason for the layoff. So they were clowns obviously, probably with an inbuilt bias towards thinking that unemployed people have only themselves to blame.
     • Anne 5.2.1

       9 May 2024 at 5:23 pm

       Bang on AB. Their ignorance was astounding. Despite the government "restructuring the work force” (that was the description of the day), they assumed the unemployed were rough living layabouts who wanted to live off the welfare teat for the rest of their lives.

       I was actually looking after my elderly mother who was in her 90s, but that didn't stop them sending a surveillance team to our address to check out the situation. I was one of many people who had that experience. It was humiliating and insulting.
     • Drowsy M. Kram 5.2.2

       9 May 2024 at 6:40 pm

       How long is that seminar, and will (unwoke no-frills) food be laid on for the laid off?

       "If you don't get that sushi's woke, I don't know how to wake you up,"
       Seymour said.

       Hmm, ‘Seymour says’ could be a fun game for the well-heeled.

       Seymour Says is a children’s game for three or more players.
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Says

       Tonight [8 May 2024] on The Panel, Wallace Chapman and panellists Chris Finlayson and Dr Ella Henry discuss the Government saving on school lunch programmes and potentially dropping election day voter enrolment.
       https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018937563

       The NZ public school system is where woke foods go to die!
6. newsense 6

   9 May 2024 at 11:44 am

   It’s been wonderful to watch ACT leader enact a principle in education that should be extended.

   The government should use its size to buy things, including money, in bulk at a considerably cheaper rate in order to provide a more inexpensive service for New Zealanders, particularly those in its poorer communities.

   Imagine this principle in housing!
   • Subliminal 6.1

     9 May 2024 at 2:49 pm

     Or water infrastructure! Imagine, using the mass of large water districts being able to attract world class water infrastructure specialists and get discounts on hardware!
7. alwyn 7

   9 May 2024 at 11:46 am

   ""As someone who makes kids' lunchboxes every day, I wouldn't be able to fill my kids' lunchboxes with good quality healthy food for $3 a day," Labour leader Chris Hipkins said. ".

   Really? Who actually believes that Hipkins carries out this activity every day? Do the children even live with him all the time?

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/05/students-to-receive-sandwiches-and-fruit-under-overhauled-school-lunches-programme-not-woke-sushi-david-seymour.html
   • Spa 7.1

     9 May 2024 at 12:01 pm

     I wonder how many pieces of sushi you get from an average sizes woke?
     • newsense 7.1.1

       10 May 2024 at 1:23 am

       Is egg sushi woke? How about sausage meat sushi? Is the vinegar woke or the rice? How about if it isn’t served by sn Asian person?

       Does that mean the 14 cities with St Pierre’s are infected hives of villainous wokeness?
   • SPC 7.2

     9 May 2024 at 12:10 pm

     I am left wondering how one can centralise the bulk buying of sandwiches and distribute them fresh around the country each day.

     And the cheapest canned fruit is that which comes with sugar in water – and is not a food I would want children to consume. It is the fruit version of the salt and sugar ladden canned food that is also a danger to health (what next noodles with salt and another dodgy additive).
     • newsense 7.2.1

       9 May 2024 at 12:18 pm

       ACT reinvents the 1970s NZ Railways lunch of hard cheese and crackers. And a good mug of black tea with sugar…now to reinvent railways too…
     • Traveller 7.2.2

       9 May 2024 at 1:21 pm

       I am left wondering how one can centralise the bulk buying of sandwiches and distribute them fresh around the country each day.

       I suspect in the same way that cafe's across the country order packaged sandwiches and serve them fresh.
       • SPC 7.2.2.1

         9 May 2024 at 1:40 pm

         Supply and distribution would be local – as the current system is
         • Traveller 7.2.2.1.1

           9 May 2024 at 3:30 pm

           Yes, but the 'buying' or ordering sounds like it's going to be through a central portal.
     • Matiri 7.2.3

       9 May 2024 at 4:32 pm

       Have had experience of Nelson Hospital food over these past few months which is trucked from Christchurch – over 400kms. It is inedible, including the sandwiches.

       If Seymour is worried about uneaten/wasted food now, he's going to get a shock. Or maybe that's the plan – make it inedible so they can cancel the whole program.
       • newsense 7.2.3.1

         10 May 2024 at 1:27 am

         Government is damn inconvenient. It’s much better to spin a few fables, lip synch the classics and go to a think tank for lunch. No skimping there!
   • newsense 7.3

     9 May 2024 at 12:14 pm

     Please ask St David what makes sushi ‘ woke’? Is it the way tuna and salmon is sometimes race-mixed in the same $5 set? We need this important list of woke foods so we don’t accidentally feed them to our children!

     We need to ask St David are St. Pierre’s sushi, which features stores in 14 Kiwi cities or the many smaller family owned sushi stores woke? Does this mean ACT will boycott them too?

     Is all Asian food woke? Or for example are jandals woke? That’s Japanese sandals btw. Are noodles okay? How about rice without vinegar? Is it still woke if it’s in a rice pudding? What about the same fish, but in a casserole?

     Kumara has to be woke right? Surely we must only eat sweet potato in the ACT party? A Maori name and staple of around a 1000 years?

     We can’t risk wokeness seeping into our food and so into our bodies and being! Please ask St David and find out!
   • Traveller 7.4

     9 May 2024 at 1:30 pm

     "Who actually believes that Hipkins carries out this activity every day?"

     Maybe it just means Chris Hipkins doesn't understand economies of scale?
     • SPC 7.4.1

       9 May 2024 at 1:43 pm

       No, the issue would be getting supply without retail mark up.

       Or do you know of a machine that makes sandwiches?
       • Traveller 7.4.1.1

         9 May 2024 at 3:27 pm

         It's the mark-up where some of the economies of scale are made.
     • AB 7.4.2

       9 May 2024 at 2:06 pm

       Labor-intensive industries like making sandwiches have limited economies of scale. Therefore the savings that enable the $3 cost must in part come from selecting less labour-intensive options such as packaged and tinned food.

       These offerings will be less appealing to kids than things made fresh, hot and locally, even if the numbers suggest that they are roughly nutritionally equivalent.

       That's the point of course: make them unappealing, drive up waste, point at the waste, shake your head in dismay that such "dumb stuff" was ever done in the first place, cancel the whole scheme, then announce mission accomplished. For some people, malice is more satisfying if it's stretched out a bit.
       • Traveller 7.4.2.1

         9 May 2024 at 3:28 pm

         "These offerings will be less appealing to kids than things made fresh, hot and locally,"

         Do you have any evidence for that?

         "make them unappealing, drive up waste"

         You mean more unappealing and more waste than the old scheme? Seems unlikely.
         • SPC 7.4.2.1.1

           9 May 2024 at 3:46 pm

           Schools that offered hot lunches as opposed to cold lunches also saw little to no leftover meals. Sandwiches and cold lunches were frequently mentioned as being wasted.

           • “Older kids will eat most kai like hot cooked meals; rice/curry and other hot meats and pasta, whereas the juniors are a little pickier and will eat anything processed or on bread. Like fried tenders, macaroni, sandwiches. With the Juniors, at least half of the less processed kai doesn’t get eaten.”

           https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/05/07/when-it-comes-to-free-school-lunches-how-much-waste-can-we-live-with/

           It’s like the government based its decisions contrary to the evidence.
           • Matiri 7.4.2.1.1.1

             9 May 2024 at 4:46 pm

             My local Area School, roll of 220, age 5 to 18, has very a successful lunch program supplied by one of our local cafes.

             The owners have 2 children at the school, age 6 and 8 so they know what children will eat.

             The favourite meal is sushi !!! followed by butter chicken, and bolognaise with orzo !!! rather than spaghetti to make it easier to eat. All very woke items in a small rural town in the South Island.

             Any unused meals are donated to local needy families so there is very little waste.

             The cafe in conjunction with the school, have sessions where a class will help prepare and serve the meal of the day. The cafe is a short walk from the school so the meals are delivered by trolley.

             This has morphed into a Masterchef competition over the school holidays as part of Boredom Busters. Some of the winning recipes have become part of the school lunch menu.
           • Traveller 7.4.2.1.1.2

             9 May 2024 at 4:58 pm

             Those are anecdotes, like these:

             "Some o'f it just really isn't nice and I've often looked at it myself and thought, yuck!" Ollie's indifference towards the school lunches is not unique, with large amounts of food waste allegedly being thrown out each day across the region.

             Intermediate student, Naki, said his Northland school had been receiving school lunches for around a year and a half. He claimed the lunches were hit and miss, with students often complaining about lunches being 'gross, stale, soggy, dry and tasting yuck'.

             'Large amounts of food waste' thanks to lunches in schools programme – NZ Herald

             As to evidence, Treasury provided that last year. They found:

             1. As many as 10,000 lunches a day are left over.

             2. that there was no evidence of impacting attendance or benefiting ākonga Māori

             https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-08-05-2024/#comment-1999130
             • SPC …

               9 May 2024 at 5:09 pm

               This is no anectdote.

               Schools that offered hot lunches as opposed to cold lunches also saw little to no leftover meals. Sandwiches and cold lunches were frequently mentioned as being wasted.

               The wastage was less than in overseas programmes and thus quickly effective. Did Treasury note that?

               Given the greater number of Maori in the schools receiving the food I'll call the no evidence of benefiting akonga Maori line wildly misleading and a quote taken out of reasonable context.

               The Herald quote demonstrates their disposition to use right wing talking points as headlines.
               • Traveller …

                 9 May 2024 at 5:17 pm

                 That is an anecdote.

                 "The wastage was less than in overseas programmes and thus quickly effective. "

                 Based on 2 examples. Your reference above also included this:

                 However, another contractor argued that 4.5% still represented quite a lot of money. “I would say 2-3% of waste is reasonably acceptable,” they said. “I believe if you gave [the school lunches contracts] to the right people, that percentage would come down. It could probably get down to 2%.”

                 Perhaps if the previous government had cared enough to measure the waste themselves (Government out to lunch on school sammie count | Waikato Times) the result might have been better.
                 • SPC …

                   9 May 2024 at 5:29 pm

                   No, the result of a survey of schools is not an anectdote.

                   In comparison to countries who have been doing it longer, New Zealand’s school lunches programme seems decades ahead when it comes to progress on waste.

                   A case study on Japan’s school lunch programme, which was established in 1954, found its food waste at a “relatively low” level of 6.9% by 2015. That same year the United States’ National School Lunch Programme, created in 1946, reported 30% of its food was wasted.

                   The source of the “quotes”.

                   Staff from more than 50 schools around the country responded to our social media questions about waste.

                   Thirty of the responses said no meals were left over by the end of the day. For many of those schools, most or all meals were taken at lunch time and any leftovers were taken home by students.

                   Ten of the responses said there were dozens of leftovers which were then donated to charities, foodbanks or local pātaka (food pantries) in the community.

                   Eleven of the responses said they were concerned about waste levels. All 11 were using external contractors.
                   • Traveller …

                     9 May 2024 at 5:46 pm

                     You are referring to a survey. Of 50 schools, out of around 2,500. And there is no data reported about the % of waste, just commentary.

                     And again your 'overseas programs' data is 2 countries.

                     The evidence from NZ's program is that we have considerable waste that the government seemed to not even be concerned to measure. This new program delivers more lunches at less cost.
   • AB 7.5

     9 May 2024 at 1:45 pm

     How many days a week would he have to make kids' lunchboxes in order to have a fair idea that $3/day is a stretch? Can this determination be made only if you do it every day?
     • alwyn 7.5.1

       9 May 2024 at 3:04 pm

       I wouldn't know how many days it would take.

       Chippie claims that he makes his kids lunches every day though. Isn't it amazing that he does such a thing? Frankly I think his story is b**s intended to make him look like a man of the people.
       • mac1 7.5.1.1

         9 May 2024 at 3:45 pm

         I don't know what Hipkins meant as his statement is capable of two interpretations. One, which seems more likely, is that he 'every day' makes a lunch box for kids. Every day, of course, would exclude holidays, weekends and I would suggest actually means 'most days' as even the best of us did not make our kids' lunch boxes every day.

         "As someone who makes kids' lunchboxes every day, I wouldn't be able to fill my kids' lunchboxes with good quality healthy food for $3 a day," Labour leader Chris Hipkins said.

         However, it could mean this. "When I put myself in the position of someone who makes kid's lunch boxes every day, I wouldn't be able to fill my kids' lunchboxes with good quality healthy food for $3 a day."

         I've just costed my lunch. 4 slices bread, 1 banana, 2 slices cheese, peanut butter, 1 feijoa. About $2.50. But, I didn't include delivery costs, packaging or labour. I didn't include a cup of tea and what would a slice of feijoa cake be worth?
         • SPC 7.5.1.1.1

           9 May 2024 at 3:47 pm

           Shared parenting – his turn with the kids.
         • aj 7.5.1.1.2

           9 May 2024 at 7:48 pm

           But, I didn't include . . . .

           Profit.
           • mac1 7.5.1.1.2.1

             9 May 2024 at 11:09 pm

             Good point, aj. The profit for me was a cheap, home-made lunch.

             I didn't mention the pie I had for morning tea, though, after a walk with friends. The pie was non-woke except for the filling which had decidedly woke Italian truffle cheese. Woke is tasty as well as tasteful, after all.

             I have eaten school lunches in Japan on occasions where the parents made a small contribution and the children and teachers ate together. Good food, with an emphasis on variety and calorific intake.

             Mrs Mac1 has eaten in French schools where subsidised school lunches were made by professional chefs, served at tables from platters with full dining etiquette, green beans often, a meat and other vegetables, banana and yoghurt for dessert.

             A nation and people are defined by their culture. Part of that is food, manners, sharing, table companionship. New Zealand is still growing ours with new immigration. Our small town has restaurants and food outlets that are French, Italian, Brazilian, Pasifika, Thai, Turkish, Indian, Mexican, Chinese, Cambodian, Japanese, Argentinian, plus fast foods in American and English styles.

             Very woke. Very tasty. Very much part of who we are, as a community, diverse and interesting……..
       • Hanswurst 7.5.1.2

         9 May 2024 at 4:20 pm

         Yes. Every day. Imagine that. Even weekends, when his kids don't even go to school. Even Christmas day.

         To address your point in a manner less commensurate with the stupidity of how you appraised Hipkins' statement, however: no, I shouldn't find it particularly amazing if Hipkins made his children's lunches daily.
       • newsense 7.5.1.3

         9 May 2024 at 10:15 pm

         You’re repeating yourself.
         It’s a sign. Should get it checked you know.
       • newsense 7.5.1.4

         9 May 2024 at 11:32 pm

         I do believe alwyn has spammed the same thing 3 times now. Not how a discussion goes.

         More aggressive and nasty tin ear behaviour. I know that parents are there to have fixed needs so that they can be forced into high childcare costs, high housing costs and high medicine costs, but it’s the glee at others misfortune that is particularly a turn off. I’m sure Chippy never intended his marriage to finish, but it did and I’m sure he’s doing his best, along with the other households across the country in similar situations.

         You should bloody pull your head in and listen to what Winston said on the matter.
8. Descendant Of Smith 8

   9 May 2024 at 12:50 pm

   Remember the woman, Christine Rankin with the very short, low-cut dresses that left nothing to the imagination? Are they going to drag her out of retirement to do their dirty work again?

   It is so misogynistic to constantly and solely blame Christine Rankin for that period, let alone fall into the idiot SSC criticism of her appearance, when it was George Hickton who introduced all the types of things like seminars post his dodgy work previously at the employment service. It has never been clear to me why he gets off scot free and she gets all the flack. Just another way in which women are treated so much worse than men.

   There's really good archival history about what went on during this time when I was a much, much younger advocate. Sometimes it is worth reminding ourselves of all those involved – politicians as well……..

   Class war – it never changes.

   http://www.jobsletter.org.nz/jblindex.htm
   • SPC 8.1

     9 May 2024 at 1:36 pm

     Back in the day, Canon Bob Lowe had a bit of a reputation as an after dinner speaker – he liked good food, wine and women – and this was his way of affording it all.

     He once wrote of the 1990's era in one of his newspaper columns.

     SCENE

     Unemployed single men who liked women but were poor and under a tough W and I regime (and they had religious groups operating as agents).

     Then the application of the market rents for state houses and a lot of older single women – some former, some current solo mothers – needing boarders to stay in the better quality state houses.

     Also at the time there was a fear of home invasions by unemployed men looking to steal stuff because the low UB income.

     He wrote a column about being about being a man who liked seeing naked women on the street (he was using the example of Jezebel – out the Samaria palace window – defenestration – to be eaten by dogs in the street. Homeless women and men without wives).

     He then posed as hearing a hiss on his ear (law of guilt religion joke) – being warned that he fit a profile of interest to the police. A man who did not belong in the neighbourhood with the better state houses.

     An Auckland magazine also had a short story about a Michael Collins on the run and looking to hide in the basement of an older woman – gimme shelter).

     Thus in those times – short skirts big hearings (dobbing in solo mothers) (and profiling watch on their entrapment of unemployed single men looking for shelter – or vice versa if the single man owned a home).

     CR was of the time, and its culture.
9. Ffloyd 9

   9 May 2024 at 1:29 pm

   Dear Alwyn.

   With regard to your completely inappropriate comment on Chris Hipkins and his children.

   You should be ashamed of yourself.

   His life outside of Parliament is none of your business and it was out of line.

   Just stop it.

   You are a twit.
   • Traveller 9.1

     9 May 2024 at 1:33 pm

     Except that Chris Hipkins introduced his children into the conversation when he said "As someone who makes kids' lunchboxes every day, I wouldn't be able to fill my kids' lunchboxes with good quality healthy food for $3 a day," Students to receive sandwiches and fruit under overhauled school lunches programme, not 'woke' sushi – David Seymour | Newshub
     • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.1

       9 May 2024 at 7:28 pm

       And kids, that means instead of movie night meaning DVDs and Tip Top at home, we might go out to the movies.

       Willis' efforts to wean kids off Tip Top are admirably healthy – wishing her well
       • Traveller 9.1.1.1

         9 May 2024 at 7:29 pm

         I’m not sure what Willis’s children have to do with this?
         • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.1.1.1

           9 May 2024 at 8:15 pm

           What do Willis' “children have to do with this“? That depends. If "this" refers to the free food in schools programme, then probably very little.

           Frankly I think his [Hipkins’] story is b**s intended to make him look like a man of the people.
           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-05-2024/#comment-1999213
           • Traveller 9.1.1.1.1.1

             9 May 2024 at 8:29 pm

             Well lunches in schools is what this is about, right? Not tip top & DVD's?
             • Drowsy M. Kram …

               9 May 2024 at 8:40 pm

               This thread kicked off (@9) with Ffloyd's response to alwyn's comments at @7, and @7.5.1 which contained this insight:

               Frankly I think his [Hipkins’] story is b**s intended to make him look like a man of the people.
               https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-05-2024/#comment-1999213

               Cutting to the chase, frankly I think that Willis' story ("And kids, this means…") is b**s intended to make her look like a woman of the people.

               https://thestandard.org.nz/this-is-what-happens-when-you-give-landlords-a-big-tax-cut-1/#comment-1993392
               • Traveller …

                 9 May 2024 at 9:24 pm

                 Ah. I thought it kicked off at https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-05-2024/#comment-1999191! All good.
     • SPC 9.1.2

       9 May 2024 at 7:59 pm

       In the lower cost Oz, the guesstimate is $4.

       https://news.flinders.edu.au/blog/2022/08/16/parents-back-introduction-of-school-meals-in-australia/
     • newsense 9.1.3

       9 May 2024 at 11:39 pm

       So the topic is nutrition. And the cost of fresh local produce. And a low wage, high cost economy. And the speed National moved to make it worse. No fair pay agreements. No discounts on fresh produce.

       Still, keep up your nasty, nasty instincts. It’s doing wonders for Chippy’s polls. He does nothing and they get better by comparison that he’s never celebrated sacking journalists or questioning someone’s parenting skills or their personal relationships.

       Matiu Rata reads comics redux. Give them cigarettes before fruit, huh.
       • Traveller 9.1.3.1

         10 May 2024 at 12:00 am

         The comment you are replying to was not about nutrition. It was about the appropriateness of commenting on a political leaders own comments about his family.
         • newsense 9.1.3.1.1

           10 May 2024 at 1:34 am

           No, it was clearly about the cost of nutrition that Hipkins was speaking about.

           He was making a point about the cost of nutrition and that he knew about it because he had personal experience.

           Look, if you’re worried because Chippy knows what a block of cheese costs and what a starting police salary is, don’t fail reading comprehension also.

           Or do, because as I mentioned above the combination of obsessive behaviour, malevolent glee and a lack of knowledge or interest in the issue at hand and the way it will change people’s lives is driving the current polling across a multitude of sectors.
           • Traveller 9.1.3.1.1.1

             10 May 2024 at 10:33 am

             You replied to my comment. Which had nothing to do with ‘nutrition’. If you want to comment about the broader discussion of lunches in schools, reply to one of those comments.
   • alwyn 9.2

     9 May 2024 at 1:39 pm

     As Traveller has pointed out, it was Hipkins who mentioned the children. It was also Hipkin's claim I was talking about, not his children activities.
10. Shanreagh 10

    9 May 2024 at 1:36 pm

    Those who have been following the cycle ways spinoff to the JAG story will be interested that this lack of meaningful consultation/allegations of predetermination is not shared only by the people of the southern suburbs.

    https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350267619/residents-boycott-council-consultation-saying-outcomes-pre-determined?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0DuSlGP9CKYHkeRS3AO9_hRng5HxebPuCgASEliKy3Faj83q0HJnHWxig_aem_AcOMvLqCdZswTDl3BDRusyp8QFriSig43AvziBILFIVBTDDGuzVdUIOu8FRJnhGcKxiADe5yz9PevxQRsVS5V59t

    This is in relation to consultation on the Wellington City Long Term Plan.

    There comes a time when busy and committed people say 'stop, I cannot be bothered going any further.'

    It is easy to see how to alleviate the cycnicism about WCC consultation.

    A back to basics approach on consultation is to go about it with an open mind and be prepared to change one's mind or compromise. I have looked at the precis of many of the submissions to the WCC prepared by consultants experienced in this. I see few problems with this competent work.

    The problems seem to arise at Council level. The councillors block vote in a party political way as if they are unaware that if they keep affirming a party line despite a weight of consultation, they may come close to or are acting in a pre-determined manner. We have about 5 'thoughtful' councillors but of course they are in the minority.

    Hence my long held view that there is no place for party political parties in local government. Although there have been other times when quasi national political parties have held sway the councillors themselves seemed to act for their constituents and the city itself rather than following some nationally determined agenda.

    The 'whipping' to stymie the thought that goes to making the city bright,vibrant and working has seen puzzling line-ups. The most recent example of this was the support for a 'welfare' bailout for Reading/Warner Brothers of $36m including from Geordie Rogers, the youngest councillor from a heavily student-oriented area of Wellington.

    I don't know but bailing out 'da man'/big business was the furtherest thing on my mind when that age, too busy against Vietnam, Women's issues and the Springbok tours I guess. To be honest it would be the furtherest thing on my mind to support 'da man'/big business or the Reading welfare fund these many years later.
    • Kay 10.1

      9 May 2024 at 3:32 pm

      Of an even bigger concern is the damaging effect that this can/will/does have on the general state of democracy. The immediate concern is that even fewer people will vote in local elections, and there's bugger-all buffer there as it is.

      In the same way that residents are giving up on the consultation process, it's becoming more likely they'll give up voting as well. Which makes complete sense really- since our elected representatives refuse outright to represent us, then why bother anymore?

      I admit to being very tempted not to vote for the first time in my life, such is my cynicism, anger and despondency in general. Although I'm seriously considering voting for someone on the Right, in an attempt to vote out my ward councillor and the mayor. For me to vote RW, that's how bad the feeling here is.
      • Shanreagh 10.1.1

        9 May 2024 at 6:13 pm

        Yes Kay. My feelings exactly.

        Yet it is so solvable with goodwill and paying attention to the basics of consultation. It does not need to be this way and to cause this distrust. Of course with us in our communities and feeling that we are the only ones this is happening to it was an amazing feeling to read that Wadestown had chosen to fight back. Brooklyn too I understand.

        Though if people don't point out the folly of what they are doing they (WCC) will then say they have a mandate to do it…..we can see how mandates so-called have been twisted with this Coalition.

        Your feeling about voting right or not voting at all mirrors the split second thought that flashed through my mind that it might not be a bad thing to have Simeon Brown put a Commissioner in to take over from a lame dog council.

        I don’t think it would be a good thing (but don’t really know) but it is a fair old mess on many fronts at the moment.
      • Obtrectator 10.1.2

        9 May 2024 at 11:51 pm

        Isn't it a bit unfair to hang all the responsibility for this state of affairs on one's elected representatives? I don't follow such issues very closely (lack of time), but I get the distinct impression that it's council bureaucrats who make many of the real decisions, and that councillors who try to interfere with their cosy little arrangements are often likely to be met with non-cooperation, obstruction and downright hostility.
11. Subliminal 11

    9 May 2024 at 3:33 pm

    From the billionaire CEO of Palantir which

    is a CIA-backed surveillance and data mining tech company with intimate ties to both the US intelligence cartel and to Israel, playing a crucial role in both the US empire’s sprawling surveillance network and Israeli atrocities against Palestinians. ..,

    Alex Karp, who

    sits on the Steering Committee of the Bilderberg Group and regularly features at the World Economic Forum…

    we have this statement with regard to the student protests and encampments in support of the Palestinian struggles in Gaza:

    “We kind of just think these things that are happening, across college campuses especially, are like a sideshow — no, they are the show,” Karp said during his rant. “Because if we lose the intellectual debate, you will not be able to deploy any army in the west, ever.”

    Which of course would threaten the existence Palantir and the ability of Karp and the many like him to maintain their status as billionaires.

    This turning of the narrative also found expression in conversation between Mitt Romney and Anthony Blinken.

    After bemoaning Israel’s lack of success at “PR” regarding its Gaza assault, Romney just came right out and said that this was “why there was such overwhelming support for us to shut down potentially TikTok or other entities of that nature” —  with “us” meaning himself and his fellow lawmakers on Capitol Hill.

    Not to mention of course the new definitions of anti-semitism now enshrined in law that equate criticism of Israel with criminal behaviour in the land of the free (sarc). (Also the UK, France and Germany)

    And of course,

    That’s why when Romney and Blinken are talking to each other about why people are so upset at Israel, it never even occurs to them to discuss how Israel’s public image is being hurt by its own actions, or to suggest that it could improve that image by simply ceasing to behave in a monstrous way. All they talk about is “the narrative” of what Israel is doing, and how people having the ability to share ideas and information with each other online makes that narrative harder to control.

    The battleground has now been identified. The future of the Palestinian struggle is now centered on the US student population.

    https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/empire-managers-explain-why-this

    The anthem has been written and video produced. Its a stunner!

    https://twitter.com/macklemore/status/1787616471738368099
    • Obtrectator 11.1

      9 May 2024 at 11:59 pm

      I like to think that J R R Tolkien would be horrified at having one of his LOTR names associated with and besmirched by this kind of activity. The idea of having to trademark it to prevent such misuse, or even the need for it, would never have occurred to him. Pity.
12. newsense 12

    9 May 2024 at 10:20 pm

    Here’s the low down-super cringy boomer coolness! For ideas that are equally. ‘Trackless trams’ are bendy buses that don’t carry enough people and still need a corridor. Flying foxes and sky cubes! I really begin to hate these people. Apparition will be next. Same principles of thought required.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350270865/auckland-council-receives-ideas-trackless-trams-urban-cable-car-resolve-transport

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